Revelation: The Church of Ephesus (Rev 2:1-7), Part 6/6

Belief sounds like a simple word until you ask where it comes from. We start with a direct challenge: if no one naturally desires God, what actually gets a person from hearing the gospel to trusting Christ? From there, the conversation turns into a serious back-and-forth over divine enabling, human choice, and what it really means to say salvation is “all of God” without turning faith into a paycheck God owes. 

We work through key Bible passages that Christians often cite in the Calvinism vs free will debate. Romans 10:17 raises the stakes on what “hearing” means and whether it implies a divine command that not everyone receives. Ephesians 1 forces the question of election and predestination “before the foundation of the world,” and whether being “in Christ” is the result of God’s eternal choice or the result of believing. Along the way, a plane analogy tries to explain how predestination might apply to those who are “in him,” and it gets challenged hard. 

Then we zoom out to theology and philosophy: God’s decree, omniscience, and the meaning of foreknowledge. Is foreknowledge basically God seeing the future, or is it God setting his love on people beforehand? Romans 11 and the idea of a remnant bring the debate back to the ground, and the tension between divine sovereignty and real responsibility gets personal through a conversion story that happened in prison and still feels like a choice. 

If you care about Reformed theology, predestination, regeneration, faith, and the question of whether God’s love extends to everyone, this one will keep you thinking. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves theology, and leave a review with where you land on the belief question.

Transcript

Where Does Belief Come From

SPEAKER_00 0:00

None of us desire him. None of us. So what you're suggesting, what you're suggesting is that there's something in and of the the part of man that enables him. So what I'm what I'm trying to understand is that the belief, this is what you you keep talking about the belief, right, brother? And I'm hearing you. You keep saying it's about the belief. So what I keep asking you, which I'm not getting an answer for, is this how does one come to belief? Is it of their own, or is it something giving them the ability? Does God give them the ability, or is the ability already inherent in them?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

God gives them the ability so they can make a choice.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

So if God, so God doesn't give people an So you're saying that God gives people He gives man the ability to return, to be returned back to what Adam was, where they could do good, they could go one way or the other. You're saying that God, by the work of the work of God, is to render man neutral. He could go either way. He's he's he is unbiased.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah, so I I think that's the difference between you and me. So I I think it's a lot more simpler than we're we're making it. So basically, what I would say is that I'm more worried about God loving everybody, and you're more worried about giving God credit for everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Did God love Esau?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Right? That that's the only difference between you and me. You're more worried about God getting credit for everything, even belief. I'm I'm more concerned about God's character and his love for everyone. So, so you're you're so so so we so we have we have to make a choice here, man. It's like, are you gonna go with God doesn't love everybody and it might impugn his character? So I have to give him credit for even belief, or am I gonna just say, you know what?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Let me let me ask you, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me before you get on this path, let me because this is going off into different areas.

Is Salvation All Of God

SPEAKER_00 1:52

So let's stick to the doctrines itself. Is salvation in man a work of God, or is it a work of man, or is it a composition of God's work and man's work in cooperation? Which one is it? It's either all of God, partially man, or all of man. Which one is it?

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Say that again. Is it all what?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

All right. There's only one of three ways whereby men can be saved. One, it's all of God, two, it's a combination of God and man, or three, it's all of man. Which one is it?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

So I do think it's all of God, but I I don't think that God has to cause your belief in order for him to get all the credit.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

So what does all of God mean then? So what is all of that?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

So here's so here's the thing. Even when we choose to believe, God is still gonna get credit for that, even if it doesn't have to be effectuated. Right? So, yeah, that's what I'm saying. You when God enables you.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

If God so does God enable you or not?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Because yeah, that's what that's what I think the Bible's getting at. I think that God has made belief available to everybody, and even when you choose to believe, so you're so you're so so here's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

If you're saying that God doesn't operate until you believe, that's a contradiction of what you just said. So it's either all of God, all of man, or part man and part God. If you say it's all of God, what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

So the here's the thing. So when it comes to saying it's all of God, I don't think it's it's so now you've got me stuck between three options. Earlier you were you were you were pinning me up against A and B, now it's A, B, or C.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Well, because you keep introducing the elements. You keep introducing new elements, so I gotta those are the only options.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I just I just think this is the way God has set it up. I think He has determined that whosoever believes in Him will have everlasting life, and if you choose not to believe, or if you choose to believe, he's still going to get credit regardless of what you How do you choose to believe?

Faith Comes By Hearing Debate

SPEAKER_00 4:15

How does a person choose to believe?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

You have to you have to you have to hear. Faith comes by hearing.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

How do you get that hearing? Okay, let's look at that verse for a second. Turn to turn to Romans 1017, read that verse. Read that verse.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

So that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Read that verse, read that verse in 10.17, Romans. Go ahead and read it. I want you to read it before you tell me I'm I'm quite. I want you to read it so that I can comment on it while you read it.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Where?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Romans 10, verse 17.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

The verse you just quoted.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah, for the scripture saith unto Pharaoh. Oh no, that's well, that's a whole nother can of worms there. Okay. All right. Yeah, Romans 10, 17. For so then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Yeah, so that's the thing. So the thing is, is why is it when the reprobate hear the word of God, they can't hear it?

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Because they weren't commanded to hear it. So when you read verse 17, it says, Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. And if you know your Greek, you're gonna know what this means. Because hearing by the word of God means hearing by the command of God.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Uh-huh. Yeah, there's okay. So if you take that passage that if you isolate 1017, I don't have to isolate that.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

I don't have to isolate, I can I can give some more to you. You say the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Right. Let me just a second here. What am I looking for?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

So when when the world when the worlds were framed, when the worlds were framed, in Hebrews chapter 1, how were they framed?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

I'm looking for Ephesians, yeah, right here. Ephesians 1.13. So if you take Romans 10.17 in context with Ephesians 1 7 or 1 13, he says, in whom ye also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after you believed, you were sealed. So according to this passage, it says, After you believed you were sealed. On your view, you're sealed, and then you believe. Because you have pre you you had you have pre-faith regeneration happening. But in this verse, it says, after you believed you were sealed. It doesn't say you want to do you want to say you were you.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

I I love when people tell me what something doesn't say. The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. But let's but but you're in

Ephesians 1 And Chosen In Christ

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Ephesians 1. So let's stick there for a second. Let's stick in Ephesians 1 for a second. It says in verse 3 of chapter 1, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who's blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, according as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. How do you explain that?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

So he starts off the passage by saying, Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God to the saints. So we know he we know he's addressing believers. Okay, but now the verse you just read when it says, according as he has chosen us in him. The question is, how do you get in him? Right? What does the in him mean? He goes back. So in eternity past, God has predestined that those who are chosen are in him. Yeah. We we already we already know according to other verses, there's only one way to get in him, and that's by believing.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

But it's like, okay, I can't let you go down that path. I want I want you to give an explanation with your theological mindset, which you have you have a you have a good mind, just deal with these verses, deal with verses three through five.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, so blessed be the God of our Father, our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, according as he has chosen us in him. Yeah, I there's a lot of things. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

No, keep going. When did he choose us in him?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, before the foundation of the world.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

That's all I needed to hear.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Yeah. So explain that. I agree with that. I I agree that God had I agree that God has chosen us in him. Did he choose everybody?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Did he choose ever? Did he choose everybody in him?

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Well, he's addressing believers here. Yes, he is. So we can't. You just said earlier, we can't read what's not there in.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

No, what I'm saying, what I'm saying is, with what look, I don't need to be a scholar to understand this. And you just proved my point. What I'm saying is we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Does that not mean election before the foundation of the world? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_01 9:27

It doesn't say it doesn't no, it doesn't say anything about election.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

All right. I know, brother Cam, I know you're an intelligent guy. I give you a lot of credit. I know you're an intelligent man. But if you come and say that that there's a distinction between being chosen and elected or predestined, we can't have a conversation. Because you're not being true.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

No, I don't think, I don't think that they're they don't have a relationship with one another.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

So what's the relationship then? What's the relationship?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

So so so predestination, chosen, election, all these different kinds of you know, predestinarian stuff. It just depends on the context. And so, right here, because we know that words are used in the Bible that aren't always used in the same way based on context. Like, for example, the the word world, the word all. World doesn't always mean everybody all the time, right? Because it says that's the first thing.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

The English word world, and this is gonna hurt your case again because you brought up John 3.16 earlier, because the word the world, the word world there doesn't mean every single person without exception, it means every single person without distinction. So you're right. The term world has nine different definitions that it it replaces the word for in our English and Greek texts. There's nine. Yeah. Three times Aeon or Eon and six times cosmos. So you're right. You're right there. And in John 3.16, it doesn't mean the whole world without exception, it means without distinction. So you're right. Again. Well, I'm I would disagree with that. Of course you do.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

You remember the verse where uh it said Jesus was preaching something or he did some healing. I think it might be in John 4 or 5, and it said, all the world has gone after him. Yeah. Right. So we know that that wasn't the entire planet going after Jesus, right? That's obvious. That's correct. But that there's a verse, there's verses in 1st and 2nd John where it makes reference to whole world. And when it says whole world, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

I want to I'm fine with that. Let's let's stick to rep let's stick to Ephesians 1, 13, or 3 through 5, because you haven't addressed that. I want to know how you interpret. How would you tell the the all the people that listen to you? How do you explain this verse to them? I'm curious. I'm I'm genuinely curious, and I mean that. How do you explain to them what verses 3 through 5 mean here in Ephesians 1? How do you tell what do you tell them?

SPEAKER_01 12:03

What I would say is that he's addressing a church that is already saved in Ephesus. Because he says to the saints, right? So these people currently believe. Can we agree on that?

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yeah, that's true. He's talking to he's talking, but he's talking to all saints.

unknown 12:22

Right?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

So now he's telling them what happened to them before the foundation of the world. I don't know why you don't see this.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yes, so I you've probably heard this analogy before, and I I'm not trying to move away from the passage, but I think it is a good analogy to paint the picture of what I'm talking about. All right. So if you have if you have God predestining predestinating a plane to go from one location to another, right? God predestines a plane to go from A to B, right? And he says, God says that getting on the plane is being in him, right? So in order to get in him is to believe. So he predestines everyone that is in him to get to this location.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

So you're suggesting that he doesn't predestinate them until after they get into the plane.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

No, the plane, the no matter what they do, the plane is going to point A to B. Doesn't matter what they do, it's going there.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

And so you're saying what what I'm getting at is that they can't get there unless they themselves get into the plane, according to your ill your awkward illustration, right? They have they have responsibility to get into the plane, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Well, I don't think they're buying their own ticket. Well, I mean God, I th I think I think God buys the tickets.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

And then you have to be a little, you have to be a little bit intellectually honest about these things here. What happens to you is when they get to the plane, according to your thing, which I think is bizarre, because that analogy makes this whole simple statement by by Paul very complicated, more complicated than it needs to be. Forget about the plane. He's saying here, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us all with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, according as he has chosen us in him, before we're getting blessed, who's getting you're not blessed in eternity past.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

All right. All right. Is that that's true, though, isn't it? You're not you're you're you're not blessed that you're not blessed in heavenly places before you're born. Yes, you are. That's what he's saying. So so then why do you have to be born? What the hell? What's the point of being born? I mean, you're you're already your sins are think about it though.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

You're you're you're already blessed. You are blessed. Listen, listen, listen. Let's put it this way. Let's put this leave it, let's leave it here. Because I'm not gonna. This is not we I respect you, we're never gonna get anywhere. You're not honest. No, I'm honest. I just I'm just no, you're not honest. I I understand what you're saying. You and you got up here because you know we disagree. You know we disagree. And we're going to continue to disagree because I do not believe, and I could be wrong, but I don't believe you're intellectually honest. I don't. And I believe that there is nothing that's going to change your mind about this, no matter what we talk about.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

We're not going to get there. I don't think you have to, I don't, brother, I don't think you have to say I'm intellectually dishonest because I don't think it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

I think you I think you are.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

I'm trying to be faithful to the text, man.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

But you're not. But you're not.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

But you're not. I see all these, I see all these people in such miserable states in their life, and I refuse to think that God You think that their ability to get out of that miserable state is based on something they can do and they cannot. Because you I think God actually loves them. I think God wants these people to come to him. That's fine.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

That's fine for you. I'm glad your heart is broken.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

This stupid that's not intellectually dishonest. That means I care about people like that.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Listen, I'm not talking about you being intellectually honest about loving people. I'm talking to you about being intellectually honest about dealing with the plain, simple text of scripture. And so, and so what I'm saying is, I'm look, I'm not you and me are on totally opposite sides of the spectrum. Completely. And we're never gonna get here. Never, never.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

And so, and I give you how do you see how do you see that? How do you see that verse in uh Peter where it says make your calling an election sure?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

It's talking about a calling an election that you already have.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Well, it says make it sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yeah, you already have it. You can't make it sure if you don't have it. How can you make your election if God's already done it? Brother Cam, hold on. Let's let's let's what I don't want to do, this will go on all night. This will go on all night. Yeah, it's not gonna go anywhere. So let me let's well let's just cut this off now. I enjoyed it. Give me don't give me that. I enjoyed it. It gave me some insight into how you think. And so, and I appreciate that. And and I'm look, I'm open to have a conversation again. I'm I'm open to it, but I can see right now, tonight we're not gonna get anywhere. We're not gonna we're not gonna get anywhere. No. I don't believe any of the stuff you're talking about. I believe it's all off. Completely off.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

I don't think that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, I appreciate I appreciate you sharing your view with me, man. I do love you as a brother of Christ, so you know. But uh, I I do just want to raise one more thing.

Decree Omniscience And Molinism

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Okay. So if I so there's a just one last thing, if I may. So philosophically, if you look at this, I mean you can you can you can kind of make sense of this from certain scriptures if you want to jump around from Old Testament passages, but philosophically, I see a huge problem with this. With what? With what? So in in eternity past, before God created anything, so so the the reason on reform theology that God knows everything is because he decreed it so, right? That's true. Right, God decrees, and then now he knows everything because he decrees it. That's correct. Right? Now here's the problem I see with this philosophically. So if decreeing something is decreased.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Hold on one second. No, decree is not. So let me ask you a question. You're saying that God's decree, you're saying that God's decree doesn't he you're saying he doesn't decree all things?

SPEAKER_01 18:28

No, I he does, but I we have a difference on how he decrees. But uh so I I tend to lean more mullenistically. Do you know what Mullenism is?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, I know, and I don't agree with that. Yeah, nonsense. Hold on, hold on, hold on. No, yeah, yeah. I uh Mullenism is false and heretical. So no, I don't.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Well, I I I I'm not officially a Molinist, but I'm just kind of still studying this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

So kind of why would you use but then why would you use Mullenism to back up something that you don't necessarily need?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Because I'm trying, I'm because I'm just trying to show you philosophically how there may be a problem on this reform view about God's creature. So so so when God before God created anything, that it was just the Trinity, right? Yes, right. So Father, Son, and Spirit, and then He decrees, and then everything comes forth. Yes, so the decree is an action, right? And because God knows everything, his omniscience is based on this decree, that's why he knows what you agreed. He decrees and he knows everything. So philosophically, without that action, without that decree, he couldn't have known anything prior to that. So even on your even on your view, wait, hold on, real real quick. Even on your view, philosophically, you would have to admit to what's it called? What's the theology where they think God doesn't know everything?

SPEAKER_00 19:53

I don't know, but I don't agree with that. That's that your assessment of what I believe is wrong. I believe that God's decree is as old as he is. So how old is God?

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Well, God, God's an eternal being, so he has no.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Well, his decree is it, his decree is as eternal as he is. It's not in order. There's no succession to his decrees. His decree is as old as he is. No, because the earth is going to put his decree, no, his decree is it precedes the creation of it precedes creation. See, this is what you don't understand. God, there is nothing that there is nothing that he has decreed that was not eternally decreed, meaning that it was always in his person.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

I'm talking about the decree. I'm talking about the decree being actualized, not the thought in his head.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

So he decreed so God, brother, the decree being actualized is only to us who are in time. To God, it is actualized from the moment he decreed it.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Which is eternal. That's what I'm saying. So so before God actualizes the decree, how how do you justify his foreknowledge prior to that?

SPEAKER_00 21:01

What do you think his foreknowledge is?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

That's what I'm saying. I think God knows everything.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Well, earlier you said What is foreknowledge?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

You said that the you you said yes, the reason God knows everything is because he decrees. You said yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

I'm asking you, no, you brought up foreknowledge right now for the first time. So let me ask you a question. What does his foreknowledge mean? And where do you get it from? What does it mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Well, foreknowledge is God knowing everything at all times, everywhere. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that at all. You're wrong.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah, yet you know you he has knowledge and depending on your problem. It's foreknowledge.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

You're wrong. Foreknowledge is what God loves beforehand. When Joseph did not sleep with Mary, he was minded to put her away because he did not know her. Am I right? Know her. So he didn't so God's foreknowledge means those whom God loved beforehand. It doesn't mean him seeing the future. And making decisions decisions based on that future foresight. When God, when Jesus said on the day of judgment that I never knew you, to those wicked people, he says, I never knew you. He did not set his affections upon them. He did not foreknow them.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

So he says that wouldn't work either, man. Because, okay, so you're saying foreknowledge has to do with love?

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Okay, did God have this loving foreknowledge before the decrease?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Pick a verse in the pick a verse in the Bible and let's look at it. You pick any verse.

unknown 22:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

I'm talking, I'm talking from this philosophical point of view.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

I'm talking about from a biblical point of view. You pick any foreknowledge verse and listen and tell me what it means. Because it means his forelove.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Right. So God did God have foreknowledge of his decree?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

God did not have foreknowledge of his decree because God's foreknowledge of his decree is pre- is pre in other words, what God knows is going to happen is based on his decree. There's no knowledge of his, there's no knowledge of what his foreknowledge is without his decree. But when we're talking about foreknowledge in a biblical sense, not philosophical. It's talking about his love beforehand. When it says those whom he foreknew, them he did predestinate. Meaning those whom he loved beforehand, those he predestined to sanctification, glorification, justification, all those things.

Foreknowledge As Forelove In Romans

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Right, but I can I can also show you a verse where that same word is used and it's it doesn't mean that. You can. You want me to show you?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

No, no, no. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

It doesn't matter because we're dealing with if you look at if you look at Romans chapter 11, he talks about having foreknowledge of his people, the he the Jewish people. He uses the same exact word you're referring to. Oh, does it be the verse?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

What verse are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 24:01

But it's not, it's not, it's not talking about falsehood. What verse are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Brother, what verse are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

It's gonna be Romans chapter 11, verse. Uh let's see here. It's right at the beginning here. Yeah, he says, I say then Yeah, he says, God has cast away his people. Uh I say then, hath God cast away his people, God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people, which he foreknew.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

For loved. Set his affections upon, brother, not foreknew in terms of I see the future. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

So these, yeah, that's what I'm saying. This same word that you're talking about is being used in reference to people who are rejecting him. So it can't be used for that only.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

He said, I did not cast away his people that he foreknew. The the the point is here that he is pointing out is that there are a remnant of his people, the national Israel, who he has saved according to his foreknowledge of them. In other words, he's saying that there is a remnant who are saved. Because if your logic is right, then that means that every single Israelite that has ever been born would be saved. Are you willing to make that case? No, no, no. Hold on, let me ask you a question. Is every single Israelite ever born saved?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yes. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. Okay. No, no.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

All right. So so when you say so, when you say foreknew, what are you talking about if it's talking about his people? That he because he's telling you God has not cast away his people, which he foreknew. What he is pointing out here is that there are people among the ancient Israelite people that he has an affection for that he has and will save. That's the whole purpose of this. That's the whole purpose of this chapter.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Yeah, in this chapter, he's quoting from 2 Kings when he says they have not bowed their knee to Bal. Right?

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Yeah. There were 7,000.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah, so so so why are they a remnant? Because they did, they refused to bow their knee to Bal. If you go back to the seven, it doesn't say it doesn't say God hath made them not bow their knee to Bal.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Listen, God killed, God killed Ahab. He was a Jew. Yeah. He killed Jezebel. She was a Jew. Elijah killed the 450 prophets. They were Jews by nationality. So there were 7,000 that were reserved. And Paul's using the same lecture, the same language here in Romans 11. He's saying that there is a remnant according to the foreknowledge and predestination of God amongst the Jewish people that are saved in and among and with the Gentile believers.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Well, there's nothing about predestination in this verse specifically, but I I get what you're saying. But can you do you agree with me, though, that they didn't bow their knee to Ball? Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 27:06

These aren't the same people. But I do believe I do believe that he's talking about a remnant according to faith. In other words, there are there are Jews like Paul, because he uses himself as an example. I say then, has God cast away his people? Because that's the way it looks. And Paul says, No, God forbid, I also am an Israelite. So those who are Israelites that believe like him are also justified and are also among his people of faith. And he says, I am also an Israelite, Cesar Abraham, tribe of Benjamin. So God has not cast away his people, and Paul is saying, I am an example that he has not done that. So the argument that Paul makes throughout all of his epistles, every one of his epistles, is that there is one body of believers, and there and all those people who believe and are accepted in God, they believe and they are saved by God based on faith that God has given them. He has not given that to all Jews, he has not given that to all Gentiles, He has given it to all those who are chosen according to the election of grace, being predestined before the creation of the world to be saved in Christ. There's no other way around this. There's no other way around this.

Conditional Salvation Or No Conditions

SPEAKER_01 28:17

But you you do agree, though, that the reason they're being reserved is because they haven't bowed their knee, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:23

No, they're being reserved because they're reserved by God.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

It says, but what it says right here.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

So so so the thing about so what you want to keep making a case of is that it's up to man. I refuse to make vacation. You're saying that. You're saying it's because they think that they're safe.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

No, it's up to God to choose who he wishes and who does he choose. He chooses to save people who don't bow their knee to ball. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

So you're saying that who he chooses to save is based on their work of not bowing.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

God has set up a condition that you must believe in him. And if you don't, you're damned.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Well, we should I just I I I just don't see belief as some meritorious work of the law. That's all.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Well, you but you're the one that keeps making it, making it that way. I don't. You're saying that not bowing is the justification for their salvation. No, and I say that it's not true.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

God, God chooses to justify those who don't bow their knee. So there's it's the way you word it. So when you word it that way, but you're wording it, but you're but you're wording it wrong, brother.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

I'm telling you, it's wrong. It's wrong and heretical. It's not true.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Right, but do you think God has the right to choose a conditional scenario?

SPEAKER_00 29:36

God does not choose anything conditional. He looked at men.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Does God have the right in his power to set up something conditional if he wants to?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

God can do whatever he wants to do, but that's not what he did. Okay, so so why can't you just agree with me then? I'm not agreeing with you because that's not what he did. You asked me if he had the power.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

That's that's begged, that's begging the question, though. You're you're assuming your position.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

I understand, I understand the need to I understand the need to sound philosophical. You don't sound philosophical. You sound lost.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

No, you you presupposed your position in that statement, and I'm just putting it in the back of the book.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

I know you want to sound deep and philosophical. You're not. You're wrong on all these points. You're completely wrong. Completely wrong. I know you don't. I know you that's the problem. You don't.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

I think you're thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

But see the thing, but see, the thing about it is is here's what I'm saying. I am saying that the work of salvation in the heart of any believer, the first cause is God. The second cause, the second cause is God, the finality is God, not what man bows to or not bows to. He is the one that puts it in our heart to bow, to submit to him. Your just your gospel doesn't do that, and that's not my gospel.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

So we're just puppets on a string.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

You call it whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

God just he's gonna believe. You're gonna believe. I'm gonna put my spirit in you.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

That's crazy, man. This life doesn't seem real, then, man.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Well, you can believe what you want to believe. I'm not trying to tell you not to believe it. You came up here. You believe what you want to believe. That's

Puppets Free Will And Prison Testimony

SPEAKER_00 31:11

fine.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

I want to really I'm telling you, when when I was in, when I was doing my three years in prison, like when I think back about this stuff now that I have this knowledge, I'm like, it felt like a real choice, man. Like when it happened. I know it feels like I had a vision, I had a vision from God and I heard his voice come out of the sky.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

You're you didn't get a vision from God telling you this. You didn't get a vision from God telling you this gospel. That is not true. Sorry. That's not true.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

No, I'm not saying I'm not saying this is the gospel he revealed to me in the dream. I'm telling you, this is how I came to him, is when he revealed himself. I heard his voice in prison, and then I've believed ever since. I don't I don't know if he caused it or not. I don't know. But it felt like I chose to.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

You won't even give him the credit for causing it, will you?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah, I will give him the credit for causing it, because without the dream, I wouldn't have believed.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Well, let me let me get ready to get out of here. I've enjoyed it, but I gotta go. I gotta go flight early in the morning. But I like this conversation, Cam. I'm surprised you came up here. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Yeah, absolutely, man. I love these kind of conversations, man. I used to do this all the time and I kind of got real rusty and stuff, but I I do everybody in the chat, if you are a reformed thinker or if you're Calvinistic leaning, I just want you to know that I do love you and I don't see you as outside of the body of Christ because of this theological difference. And I just, you know, I would just leave it at that and just say, hey, just kind of think about this God loves everybody thing more, you know?

SPEAKER_00 32:39

I appreciate that,

Respectful Wrap Up And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 32:40

brother. I'm sure, I'm sure people are hearing you. And and and and I and I I appreciate the dialogue. I really do. I really I sincerely do, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I really do. I'm I I I it took it takes a lot of courage for you to come up here as it would for me to go up to yours. And so, and I appreciate you. And and we can have this conversation again, and I think that if we have one again, let's structure it more and and and come up with something that we can really organize and and and discuss. And then, you know, absolutely. I'm thinking maybe you know, we can take some of these doctrines one by one and and deal and exhaust them. But I'm open to that. I'm open to that. But so I appreciate you, brother. I'm gonna and I would stay if it wasn't for we get we gotta leave four o'clock in the morning. So but I appreciate you, brother. Yeah, I gotta get on the plane to head out to California to see my family. So my wife, she's coming here reminding me, I better hurry and get ready to you know start packing so we can get out of here in a few hours. But but brother, look, I'm glad you came up here, brother Cam. I appreciate you. I I sincerely do, and I definitely want to have this conversation. So let's connect on DM and figure out when we can do it. Is that is that fair enough?

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'd I'd love to do that, man. And I'll I'll just say one more thing before I go. So my goal here is not to take glory away from God in any way. I don't want to steal glory away from God because I I give glory to God for everything he does in my life. Right. My my goal here is to show that he loves everybody. That's the only difference.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

I understand.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

I just I just want to show that God loves the world and that he wants everyone to come to the knowledge of truth. I don't want to take glory away from him.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

I agree with you. I I I agree with you. Does he love people in hell, Cam?

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah. All right, let's not open up another can of worms because that's a whole nother subject. So, all right, all right, brother Cam. Let's we'll we'll we'll convene and we'll we will set up something more structured and organized so that we won't have to shoot things off in an impromptu fashion. Because I love to have these kind of conversations with people like yourself, and it would be I and I think that you and I could have a very good uh friendly conversation. I really do believe that. So I look forward to it, okay? All right, brother.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah, sorry, I said one more thing last time, but I will say one more thing. So I do have a section on my TikTok profile at the top that says resisting Calvinism. If you ever watch any of those videos, they might come off a little strip.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yeah, I won't.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah, I I may I made them like three, four, or five years ago. So I I'm I seem I'm making it seem like you guys are heretical. So I'm probably gonna take it down. But yeah, if you look at that, don't view me as some evil demon or anything. Just you know what I'm saying? Just leave it. I'll just leave it at.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Something happened to you, brother, because you you had a bunch of I like that. All right, but no, no problem, brothers. No, no, no love loss at all. I I appreciate you. And we'll do this again. And I welcome it. All right, I welcome it. Yeah. All right, man. God bless you.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

God bless you and everybody in the chat.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

All right, good next.