Die With Christ, Live With Christ (Rom 6:5-11), Part 3/4

If you have ever wondered, “What if I fail and God lets me go?” we go straight to the text that refuses to let salvation hang on your grip. We work through Romans 6:8-9 and slow down on Paul’s phrasing: since we died with Christ, we believe we will also live with Him. That single connection forces a bigger question: if a Christian could be finally lost, what would that say about the cross, the resurrection, and the righteousness Christ gives to His people? 

We talk candidly about eternal security, union with Christ, and why the idea of “losing salvation” ends up accusing Jesus’ work of being incomplete. We also bring in Jesus’ words about His sheep hearing His voice, not as a sentimental quote, but as a claim of ownership and a promise of perseverance. And we make room for real-life clarity: sanctification is a process, but it is the Holy Spirit’s work in those who are already secure, not a fragile probation period you must survive. 

We also tackle Romans 6:9 and the grounding truth behind assurance: Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more, so death has no dominion over Him or those united to Him. A lively exchange even takes on the “descended” question, while keeping the main point in focus: Jesus’ resurrection is permanent, and that permanence is the believer’s confidence now and hope for final glorification. 

If this strengthened your faith, share it with a friend who needs steadier ground, and please subscribe and leave a review so more people can find these Bible-centered conversations.

Transcript

Setting Up Romans 6

SPEAKER_06 0:00

And that he is simple to me because I'm simple. And I it I just believe what the word says. I mean, it's simple as that.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Right.

SPEAKER_06 0:11

Honestly.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

Amen, sister. Let's look at verse 8 now. So in verse 8, Paul continues again.

Prayer For Farr’s Hospital Return

SPEAKER_08 0:20

He says I interrupt for a minute, brother. Sure. Go ahead, Far. Glad to be out of here. Tomorrow morning, I'll be going back into the hospital, unfortunately. Oh no. And I don't want to have to spend the night in the hospital by myself. So please pray that that doesn't end up happening. My blood hemoglobin count went down, so that means I have to have another blood transfusion. So I'm just asking for special prayers that you know everything goes well and I don't end up having to be in the hospital.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Well, you you we will definitely be praying for you tonight, and I'm definitely going to make my own personal private prayer time available for you too, as it should be.

SPEAKER_08 1:08

All right. Thanks a lot. All right. I'm getting so all right, brother.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Have a good night. Yeah. Bye-bye. All right. So we'll be re be reminded to pray for Far tonight. Please remind me if I forget before we close tonight, because I want to make sure that we don't forget about that, brother. He's a good man. All right.

Romans 6:8 Since We Died

SPEAKER_04 1:29

So verse 8, it says, Now, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. Again, like I spoke about previously, about if, and like in verse 5, where it says, for if we have been planted together, it means for since, or because we have been planted together. The same thing happens here. Paul is not saying if in the sense of condition. He is saying since we be dead, or because we are dead. So because or since we be dead with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him. So having established the reality of death with Christ, also an establishment that happens in the minds of many people who call themselves Christians. They believe they have died with Christ. But Paul also turns again to the certainty of our life with Christ. And he ties these two things together. They are interwoven. You can't say that I have died with Christ, but there's a possibility that I might not live with him. And Brother Farr, if he were here, I know that in spite of a few of the things we may disagree with, we both agree on this unequivocally. If you are a Christian and you have died in Christ, Paul establishes that life with Christ is intricately and intimately connected to the death with Christ. If you die with him, you should have the certainty that you shall live with him. If you could die with him, and he did die, then his life requires that you live with him, that you have his life. Otherwise, there is something flawed with the life that he obtained as a result of his resurrection. There's something flawed in it. There's something that is incomplete, either with his life, or either with the death. Either he didn't remove all of your sin or he didn't give you all of the required righteousness. This is the only way that a Christian can lose their salvation. It's only one of two ways. Christ's blood didn't cover all of your sin, it covers some of it, or his righteousness wasn't entirely, completely imputed to you. So if those either of those two things could happen, then there would be the argument for a person to be able to lose their salvation. But that's not what Paul says here. He says, For since we know that we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. He points out these two things go together. They go together. If you died with Christ, you shall live with him. There's no way around that. And you live with him at the moment of belief by faith. You know that your sin has been removed, and you know that his righteousness

Can A Christian Lose Salvation

SPEAKER_04 4:46

has been imparted to you. So where in there is the room for a Christian to fail? We know that we were dead in sin and trespasses, and we know that we needed to be quickened or made alive in order to be made alive. We know we can't do it. There is no faculty within us that enables us to be able to operate in a functional way whereby we can shed our own sin and impart to our own selves righteousness that belongs only to Christ. The idea of a Christian losing salvation is a heretical idea. Because it is an affront upon the work of God and the work of his son and the work of the Holy Spirit in us and for us and on our behalf through and throughout. What kind of a mediator would Christ be if we could fall from grace, if we could lose salvation? What kind of an advocate would he really be if we could lose salvation? What is the point of his mediatorial reign in this present day if we could lose salvation? What sense did it make that Christ would leave 99 sheep to go retrieve the one that went astray if it doesn't happen in every instance? What is the point of that parable? So faith lays hold of this promise that though we be dead, since we died with Christ, we also believe that we shall live with him. How do we know this? Because faith gives us that ability to lay hold of this promise, and the promise it is. And how is it a promise if we can lose our salvation? How would it be a promise? What kind of a promise would it be? And what is the basis of the pro of the promise holding? What would be the basis? What certainty could we have if you have other foolish Christians out there telling people that you can lose your salvation? Christ speaks about a reservation for us, an appointment for us to enter into glory. He tells us that it is inevitable. It is an incorruptible promise that we shall be co-heirers with him, co-heirs with him. What where is the teeth in in believing that if we believe we can ultimately be lost after having been saved? It makes no sense. It makes no sense, and it is an affront unto the work of our Lord. To live with Christ means far more than just a future existence in heaven, it includes a present participation in his resurrection life. In other words, we have life now. The old man has died, the new man lives and has life. And there's no way for us to be able to have life if the old man has died. Look what he says in verse 6 again. Knowing this, our old man is crucified with Christ. So if the old man has been crucified with Christ and is dead, and Paul can say in verse 7, for he that is dead is free from sin, then in what sense can in what sense can we be said to not have life if he tells us that the old man is dead? So we are either dead and not alive, which is kind of a contradiction because it would both mean the same thing. Brother Chris, what do you think? Help me out here.

My Sheep Hear My Voice

SPEAKER_05 8:56

Hey, how are you doing, Brother Jonathan? I'm doing all right, brother. All right, good being with you guys again. Hey, listen, you know, Jesus said, My sheep hear my voice, and the stranger they won't follow. Right now, look, that in itself is like a proclamation of ownership. And he also told the disciples when they were casting out demons, and he said, We're going out, and I'm paraphrasing, we're going out and we're casting out demons in your name. And they're leaving. He said, Don't be glad for that. Be glad that your names are written in the book of life, right? Look, this is a ownership. So when he calls, it is a definite call. It's not like anyone can rescind a call that he put forth. Amen. So the salvation that he's given us is a fact, it's not something doubtful, it's not something to we're going through. Yes, we're going through a process. A lot of people say, Well, look, how can you say this and still sin? These things, look, the process is a part of you turning away. That is the rejection of it. Because when he told that woman, the prostitute, he said, Go your way and sin no more. He made a proclamation in her life. And guess what? She didn't sin anymore. And this is what he's saying in our lives, too. And we're turning away from sin and we're walking into righteousness by the power of the Holy Spirit, by the power of his word. And it's true. Absolutely, brother.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

I land my plane. Oh man, thank you, brother. A good job you did. And in addition to that, that woman, that Samaritan woman at the well, you know, he told her to go away and sin no more. But notice what had to happen. He had to drink from the well of living water. And it wasn't the water that was in that physical well, but it was that living water that existed in the words of Christ. I mean, he told her, I am he that you have been waiting for. And so, good word, brother Chris. Excellent word there. Sister Lisa, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Well, I was just, I love what Brother Chris just said about, you know, my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. You know, we we will never be a goat. Even when we were in our sin. You know, Brother Nathan in the comments put, we were just lost sheep. We weren't goats that he turned into sheep. The sheep are the sheep, and the goats are the goats. It is what it is. And I praise the Lord for that. Thank you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Amen. Amen. Sister Mariah, what do you think? Okay, let's see.

unknown 11:57

Mr.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Gutcherman, your thoughts. Anything you want to add to this one? All right. Can anybody hear me? Can you hear me, Lisa?

SPEAKER_00 12:08

I can hear you. I bet Mariah stepped away with her kids, and I don't know what happened to Meg.

SPEAKER_04 12:13

Okay. That's all right. We'll we'll keep going then. We'll keep going. So when it comes to verse 8 here, knowing that since we be dead with Christ, that we also believe that we will live with him at the same time. This

Resurrection Life Now And Later

SPEAKER_04 12:28

promise points to our final glorification. And so we rest in that as well. And the life that we now possess is a possession only in part. But one day we will get to experience the fullness of it when our Lord and Savior returns. So the resurrection of life, it begins in regeneration and it will also culminate in perfect holiness and eternal fellowship with Christ, apart from this body of sin that we still wrestle with, the sin that lingers. So now

Romans 6:9 Death Loses Dominion

SPEAKER_04 13:04

going into verse nine, Paul says, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more, death has no more dominion over him. Now let me tie this back again to verse 8. If we be dead with Christ, well let me let me go to verse 7. Because we have to understand this. For if he that is dead, meaning the believer, knowing that he that is dead is freed from sin, now if we be dead, as he just said, with Christ, then we also believe that we shall live with him. And now in verse 9, he adds, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more, we know that death also has no more dominion over him. Notice he uses the word knowing again. In verse 6, he says, knowing this, knowing this. In verse 9, he says, knowing that Christ, there are things that he is telling us and assuming that we know. So here again, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more, death has no more dominion over him. So if Christ has died, all he is simply saying is that death has no more dominion. So the certainty of the believer's life with Christ rests upon the permanence of Christ's resurrection. So here's what he's saying. If you died with Christ, who did die, and Christ resurrected from the dead and is alive, then we too are alive. He goes back, if we go back to verse 5 where it says we are planted together in the likeness of his death and in the likeness of his resurrection, what he is saying is this as long as Christ is alive, those who had their sin removed by Christ's death, they are also guaranteed union and life in perpetuity. They cannot die ever again. Their salvation cannot be lost. It is an absolute impossibility. Impossible. Unlike those whom Christ raised during his earthly ministry, we saw, like Lazarus, for instance, they later died again. But Christ's resurrection introduced him into an indestructible state of glory, which is our guarantee that we will also enter into that indestructible period of glorified, of being glorified souls in glorified bodies. Right now we are glorified souls in a tainted body, but then we will be glorified souls in glorified bodies. Brother Chris, go ahead.

Did Christ Descend Into Hell

SPEAKER_05 16:06

Brother Jonathan, that is the heaviest thing when you said that, right? Because the indestructible power of Christ, resurrection, right? Okay, so I'm I'm gonna set a premise, okay, real quick. Right? Jesus Christ being holy, him being holy, it's impossible for him to die into sin, right? But on the cross, he bear the sins of the world. Now, it's impossible for Christ to bear this, bear sin because he's sinless. In order for him to bear the sin, he carried the whole sin of the world in order to take him to the depths of hell, of condemnation, so that he could satisfy it. When he got into hell, he disrobed. The sin was dropped off in hell. He took it off and immediately he rose into resurrection. Look, this is the salvation that we endure, that we has been afforded to us, right? Right. In terms of him disrobing, as soon as he disrobed, righteousness filled him. And he made that righteousness available to all those who believe on his name, all those who are called by his name.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

Right. Now let me ask you a question. I just want I just want to get clarity on this. Now, when you say that Christ was in hell, what do you mean when you say that?

SPEAKER_05 17:50

Because if when you go back into the book of Acts, it said that he descended to ascend. Right. And so how do you take that to mean? Okay, so look, I'm gonna go back to the garden when when they saw.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

No, no, no, just just just just just stay right here. Just stay right here, because we I don't want to send you in a rabbit hole. You don't need to go that far. I just wanted you to tell me what where did he, when you say Christ went to hell, because this is an important point, because a lot of Christians say this. What do you mean? What what what what where did he go? Are you you are you suggesting that when he died, he went into hell, the place where lost men and demons are going to take?

SPEAKER_05 18:32

He took our place and he went down and he ministered into spirits, into the spirit. Yeah, this is based on the book of Acts that said that he went down and did this on the on the behalf of our sins. And and when I say this robe, he took those sins.

SPEAKER_04 18:52

All right, well, let me let me let me let me stop here for a second. Let me stop here and give you, let me give you a different perspective to consider here. All right. You mentioned the part, and I'll go on because I don't want I won't hold up the study, but I want you I want to give you something to think about, friend, brother Chris. I just want to give you something to think about. When this says that Christ descended, men have a tendency to say that he descended into hell. That he descended into hell. I would argue that that's not what happened. That's not where he descended. When it says he descended, it means he descended from heaven to earth. When he put on human flesh, the Son of God left heaven to put on human flesh and descended to the earth. And when he died and resurrected, he did what? He ascended back to where he came from. As far as hell is being referred to as Christ ascending into hell, it is speaking purely of his body being put in the tomb or the grave. So just uh what I what I want you to do, brother Chris, is just think about it. And then hit me up in direct message or whatever, and see me if you see some plausibility in that. So don't treat this as a refutation yet. But I want you to go and see if it's possible that what I'm saying is true, and then let's talk about it. Is that is that fair? I hope so. All right. So you hear me, Chris? Yes, I do. I do. All right, so so just consider that. Because remember, what's in Acts is being quoted from David when he says, when Christ is is is he speaking about Christ prophetically, and he says, You will not see leave my soul in hell so that long enough for it to see corruption. Yes. Okay, so the corruption was that he would not be in the grave long enough to become decayed.

SPEAKER_05 20:59

Yes, yes, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

So so if you look at if you look at what was being quoted in Acts, coming from David speaking, is talking about Christ's body being in the grave. And it was in the grave, and on the third day, it came out of that tomb.

SPEAKER_05 21:16

And I agree with that too, brother John. I I agree with that. The only caveat to it was when he came out and they saw him, he told me, he said, Don't touch me. My body glorified you. But then when he went into the upper room, he told Thomas, he said, Thomas, he said, touch me and feel. So, you know, so that there had been a transition, there had been a change there in terms of his his physical makeup that allowed the acceptance of being touched prior to when he came and he was initially out of the grave, and he said, Don't touch me. So that Transition in between that time of some sort that you know that you know I can't claim that I understand, but something happened to change things.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Well, something something happened or or or I mean what here's what I'll say on that one. I I have not seen a clear, there's nothing in in the scripture that I can think of that says what that reason was. So I don't I won't.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

I agree with you right. It's it's a vague point. I agree with you, but brother Johnson. But but look, but yet in still though, because I don't want to take away from the point that you draw on how he took on our sins. He defeated death in our life. Because it's the most important part.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

Absolutely, brother. Agree with you 100% there, brother Chris. Brother Pat, go ahead.

Why The Resurrection Secures Us

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Yeah, it seems to me that the the writer is saying, hey, as sure as Jesus died, your sins are forgiven. And as sure as Jesus resurrected, your salvation is secure. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

It can't be said better than that. I mean, that's really, you know, we can have all these lessons and expository discussions, but that right there is it in a nutshell. That is really it. And that's what Paul is making there. That's the case, that's exactly the case he's making. Sister Mariah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yes, I didn't know that this verse is right here, but this is exactly what I'm saying is that Christ, he died once, he's not gonna die no more. Like, you know, and and either we're in Christ or we're not in Christ. And that's something that someone has to know on their own and come to their own understanding on this. But when they are saying, it's like Hebrews 6, you know, that if it was possible that you could lose your salvation after all of these things, you would have to crucify Christ again afresh. Right. This this is what it takes for us to have salvation is him coming down, dying on the cross for our sins, and being raised and ascended up to heaven. This is what it took. So if you are in yet in your sins again, and that's that sacrifice was not sufficient for you, then what is it gonna take?

unknown 24:28

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

I guess it's gonna take him dying all over again, wouldn't it? And that can't happen.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

God forbid, as Paul will say, right?

SPEAKER_04 24:38

God forbid, exactly, exactly. So he so here again in verse nine, he says, Death has no dominion over him, knowing that being raised from the dead, Christ dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him. And this this is something that we also need to to apply a special significance, because during his earthly ministry, Christ voluntarily, he voluntarily submitted himself to the conditions necessary to complete his mediatorial work, which is our redemption and the removal of our sin. And so he became subject, necessarily so, to suffer and to undergo weakness, and ultimately to undergo death. He does this for ourselves, not for himself. And so, yet once his atoning work was completed and he was raised from the dead, death's authority over him ended forever. And so, because he can't die, we can't die. If we die ultimately, having claimed that we were born-again believers, and we could die after that, then there was something fundamentally wrong with the death of Christ or with the resurrection of Christ, and somehow it didn't do what God said it would do. That's the conclusion of this whole matter with regard to this. And this is a treatise about how a Christian can never be lost, it's an impossibility because a Christian being lost means that Christ either did not die ever, or he would came to life and died again, which cannot be true, and so this truth should provide Christians with immense comfort. We are supposed to not evaluate our own selves, but to look to him and believe by faith. And like one of the brothers just got through saying, otherwise our preaching is in vain, like Brother Abel says. If all the things that I'm saying right now, if all the things that Paul is writing in his epistles, if you could lose your salvation, then all of this is worthless. It truly is. But since we are all united to a living savior, we're not united to a dead savior, we're lit we're united to a living savior whose resurrection life is eternal, it is unchangeable, and our spiritual life is secure. We no longer, after having been died to sin, after having died to sin and being freed from it, we can no longer be, we are no longer its servants. Why this is difficult for the unbelieving Christian community to understand, I will never I will never understand it. It is so true. Do we not? We know we can't change because he can't change.

Confronting Teaching That Undermines Grace

SPEAKER_04 28:25

The permanence of Christ's spiritual triumph on our behalf guarantees the permanence of our salvation. Let all those men that tell you otherwise be counted as liars. No man or woman who tells you that your salvation can be lost should be listened to. They should be written off as heretics and liars. I hate to say it that way. But too many people in pulpits refuse to tell people the truth. But we're not gonna have that problem. I'm on nobody's payroll except for the Lord's, and nobody can now pay him. And I want to encourage every one of you Christians, listening, to not be afraid to tell people that this is a lie. It undermines not just our own faith of other people who you tell this to, but you are undermining the very policies that govern the kingdom of God. We live and have been translated into a new kingdom, his kingdom. We are not subject to the rules of the old. When he died, the body died. When he raised to life, his body raised to life. Never to die again. Never to die again. Mr. Gutcherman, would you like to add anything, brother? All right, Sister Cindy, what do you think?

Faith As Gift And Spirit-Led Change

SPEAKER_07 31:21

Um fire, as always. But yeah, it's I think it's basically what you've been saying is just our salvation is a sure thing, not because of us, but because of Christ. And so you when you have a union with Christ, it's not something that can be undone because it's not on the basis or merit of you. That's right. It's it's Him that that like this is such a gift. Like, I wish people could see that this is such a gift because you didn't do anything to get this, right? You're not gonna do anything to remain in this. This is all something that God is doing, right? And so that union, it can't be broken, and thank God for that. Because if it was based on us, the union wouldn't even be started.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

So that is so true, sister. So true.

SPEAKER_07 32:24

Can I can I can I read the scripture though that adds to what you were saying? Sure. This is 2 Corinthians 5, verse 14 and 15. It says, For Christ's love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died, and he died for all. That those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised again.

SPEAKER_04 32:51

Amen.

SPEAKER_07 32:52

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

Perfect application, sister. Perfect application. People are on fire tonight. Perfect application, Sister Vanessa. What do you think?

SPEAKER_06 33:02

Well, I I I think because we we live in him and he lives in us. And if people cannot understand that, then how can they be a Christian? I mean, I really I really do believe that. I really believe because he sh he shows us that we are just like him, because he hung on that cross, we hung on there with him, our sins were transformed just like you know, because of him. And now we have the life within him.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 33:40

And because God loves him, he loves us.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

That's right. Amen. Lisa, give us something, sister. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Well, I'm just thinking about, you know, salvation is of the Lord, period. If you're if you're thinking anything else, you're going off track. I mean, he's the one who gives us the gift of faith. That's in Ephesians. He is the one who gives us the ability to repent from our sins, which is, I think that's in Acts. It's him. Sanctification comes through the Holy Spirit. Everything that we go through, our faith walk is all God.

SPEAKER_08 34:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

And if and and if you're if you're worried about if you're worried about losing yourself.