WE ARE MORE THAN CONQUERORS (ROM. 8:31-39), part 2/4

You can hear it in the first few minutes: real faith often starts with the shock of hardship. We talk honestly about the pain of trials, the kind that makes you admit, “I didn’t keep myself.” From there, we build a case for Christian assurance that doesn’t depend on mood, performance, or a good week, but on the steady character of God. 

We move from a parent’s love for their child to a much heavier place: the cross. The most haunting detail we sit with is not just the physical brutality, but the separation Christ endured as he bore sin. We connect that to Gethsemane, where Jesus faces the cup with true agony and yet chooses the Father’s will. That thread matters because it frames the atonement as purposeful, complete, and effective, not merely symbolic or unfinished. 

Then we open Romans 8:32-33 and follow Paul’s logic like a lawyer: if God did not spare his own Son, he will also give everything needed to bring his people to glory. And if God is the one who justifies, who can actually lay a charge that sticks? We also talk about the new covenant as an everlasting covenant, like a will that grants an inheritance through Christ’s death, and we touch the tension people feel in John 3:16 around “whosoever believes” and how saving faith comes to life. If you’re searching for clarity on eternal security, justification, and “can you lose your salvation,” this conversation is for you. 

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Transcript

Trials That Reveal God’s Keeping

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Thought that it would be easier than it is, I must say. I must say, I was I was deceived or my thinking was wrong. I I never realized that there would be the degree of suffering and trials and tests that there are. And I'm amazed I look back at how he's kept me. I know now that I didn't keep myself. I realize now that it's not me at all. I don't know if I would have understood this if it hadn't been so difficult.

SPEAKER_04 0:40

Right. That's right, sister. Absolutely. Copper, would you like to add anything to what we're talking about so far?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

And welcome tonight.

SPEAKER_07 0:54

And I've been through the things that I've been through, and I'm still drawing breath and not locked up, that I'm free, and I have a roof over my head, and all my needs are met, is just more proof to me that he has always been there for me. He has always carried me through. Was I always obedient? No.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:19

But he never left me. I may have turned my back on him. I did. I absolutely did. Turn my back on him, walked the other way, and tested and tested and tested. But I'm here. And we're glad only because of him.

SPEAKER_04 1:39

That's right. We're all the happier for it, sister. All the happier

A Parent’s Love As Picture

SPEAKER_04 1:43

for it. You know, here's the thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Many of us here are parents, maybe even grandparents. Can you imagine? Can you imagine not loving your child regardless of what they do? Can you imagine coming to the conclusion that I do not love my child anymore? You may not love the neighbor's child. You may not love the friend, the children of other families. You may not love the children in your church. But as a general rule, in spite of this terrible society that we live in, parents genuinely, uh genuinely, or generally, never lose the they never lose the love they have for their children, no matter what they do. When they are told of some heinous thing or some crazy thing that their child does, the parent is the last one to believe it. And even when they believe it, it doesn't alter their love for their daughter or their son. You all know what I'm talking about. And no one can love better or harder than Lord, than the Lord Almighty. His love transcends the love of any parent over any children that they have. His children, he loves, and he loves them until the bitter end, and he makes sure that he can do something what parents can't do for their children. That he can bring them to a state of permanent righteousness and a permanent peace with him. That's what he does. And when you say that a person can lose their salvation, you are saying that there's something you can do regarding your children that God can't do regarding his own.

The Cross And The Father’s Turning

SPEAKER_01 4:18

And he screamed out to the Holy Spirit, and the Father turned his back on his son. That is one of, to me, it's the most heartbreaking thing ever. You know, it's just like what you're talking about. As a parent, you never want to turn your back against, you know, your son. But in that moment, the father had to turn his back against the son because he was taken on the sense of the whole entire world. And he is so, you know, he couldn't, you know, bear it. Right. That is like the most heartbreaking. It's not, you know, the fact that, you know, he was, you know, his beard was torn off. He got whipped, and you know, had to carry this cross, you know, by himself, and you know, he had to drink vinegar when he was thirsty. It was not, you know, I mean, it's to me, you know, what Jesus Christ had to go through to get to that cross is horrible.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

But it's the most heartbreaking moment is when that child had to look towards the heavens, right? And his father was like, nope, I can't, I I can't look at you. I can't, that is a very heartbreaking moment for a parent.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

That's right. That is. I mean, you know, he he and here's the crazy thing.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

In addition to that, because what you're saying is is profound and and heavy, and I think more Christians need to understand how significant that was. But you know, when it came to going to that cross, there were many people who went to the cross and died the way he did, but none of them had the quality of being that Christ had. He was a son of God, God Almighty in human flesh, perfect and sinless in every way. And like brother, like you just said, there is a time on that cross where the most egregious thing that happened because of us was God turning his back on his son. And to him, to Christ, that had to have been some type of of an eternity for him. To us, it was on the cross Friday, resurrected on Sunday. But what was that like for Christ? You can't imagine what it must have been like him being the eternal son of God, enduring God's wrath and the humiliation that he went through on that cross before man and at the wicked hands of men, especially the wicked hands of people who are supposed to be his earthly people. Angie, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 7:47

Yeah, I want to, you know, that right there is just something to think about in your mind that you can't even imagine that Christ had harmony with God since the very beginning of time, and this was the only time he had to be separated from the father. Yes. And it wasn't the crucifixion that he was praying about, it was being separated from his father for the very first time since before time started. So having in harmony with him and not ever being separated from him, from his father, to me is just so heartbreaking for him. See, I couldn't even imagine how it felt for him, but I can get a glimpse of what it felt like because you know, me being separated from Christ ever would just break my heart. And I know I couldn't be, but just I couldn't even imagine that. I couldn't live my life without Christ. So I mean that's even more significant and so beautiful in the purpose of why he gave, willingly gave his life for us, but then what God did for us. I just I just love it. It's just it's just heartbreaking too at the same time. But it's also absolutely beautiful because there's a purpose for it.

unknown 9:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Sean, what do you think?

Gethsemane And The Cost Of Separation

SPEAKER_09 9:05

Just yeah, just to add to Stud and Angie, even even before he even got to the cross, we look at the Garden of Gethsemane, and it said, you know, that he was asking the Father that if it be possible, let this cup pass. And scripture tells us that he was in agony, and and it was his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. That's how, and that was we understand that to be the human nature of him. But he said, you know, not my will, but your will. And so we see this agony even before the cross. And but we he understood himself that that was what that was his mission.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

Exactly, exactly. Mariah.

SPEAKER_05 9:49

Something that I never just thought about, although we say it and we're talking about the separation that Christ endured on the cross, which is the separation, sin separates us from God. So it's always fitting that while he's taking on the sin of us, that he be separated as well, to fully bring that reconciliation back. And so I just never thought about it in that way that, you know, wow, he endured not only the sin, but the very thing which is the cause of sin, separation from God. Man, that's just it's something to ponder on.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

It is, it really is something, it really is something heavy.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

So,

Romans 8:32 Assurance Like Insurance

SPEAKER_03 10:36

what we see in verse 32 here, we see that God, God the Father, is giving his own son expressive of the love and the purpose that he has for his elect people. He loved us, and we say this a lot, but I don't think we really understand the depth of it. He loved us so much and was so set on accomplishing the purposes in our salvation, the completion of our salvation, that he gave up his son to insure it. His son was his policy to us to guarantee that our sins have been paid for. When you buy insurance for your home or your car or whatever, you are saying that if that car gets destroyed or that house gets destroyed, you have this policy that what you have paid will cover all the damages. The difference being here that God gave up his son to give us something that we cannot even pay for. He did it of his own accord for reasons in us that don't go anywhere, don't go any further than just his tremendous, eternal, unchanging love for his people. Christ was the proof that those who trust in him can never be lost. His death was the evidence of that, the proof of his love and the proof that our salvation was finalized, the deal was done, it's over. And so when he says, all things, he gives us all things. This is understood in the redemptive context. Everything required to bring believers to final glory. This is the reason why Christ was given by God to ensure it. Not to make it possible, but to ensure it. Not to make it sufficient, but to make it efficient, not to make it possible, but to give us the guarantee that we can unequivocally, unequivocally count on our salvation. That's why he said that we also are glorified. And he put this in the past tense in Romans 8:30. The true believer is already glorified. As far as God is concerned, we are already glorified. You may be falling heavy under the burden of the stress of this life. But God is saying, yes, you may be. And there's a reason that I have to work this in and through you. But rest assured, my child, you are coming home to me. In the trials that you're going through, this is the vehicle to get you here. When you understand this, when you understand that he is going to bring you to glory, without doubt, then you begin to understand that everything you are going through is instrumental in that journey to get to him. And so the argument moves by Paul, it moves from the greater to the lesser, establishing confidence in God's ongoing grace. His ongoing grace. And so in 833, Paul continues.

Romans 8:33 No Charge Stands

SPEAKER_03 15:07

And he continues this theme, and he continues to find new ways, different ways, like a lawyer would to make you understand the same thing. If you didn't get it when I said it this way, maybe you'll get it if I say it in another way. So in verse 33, he says, Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? Who shall lay anything? Who meaning any person? And guess what? That includes you. Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? Who can bring a charge? Who can bring a charge for any crime against God to one of his elect? And then he says, it is God that justifies. And yet, when we come to faith in Christ, before we die, he tells us that we are going to be glorified. In fact, he tells us that we are already glorified. Even though we have not passed on from this life and shed this wretched body that we live in. But he says, We are already glorified. But before you are glorified, in that chain, that golden chain of salvation, he says, you are justified. Justified, like Sister Sean says, is God having declared you righteous. And once God has declared you righteous, who then, after God has done this, who can bring a charge to you? As if there's a charge that God was not aware of? As if there is a guilty stain that the blood of Christ did not wash away. Was there a spot of sin on you that the blood of Christ did not wash away? Can you say that? Are you willing to say something so foolish as that? His blood washed away every guilty stain. Every guilty stain for every elect, called, justified, glorified, saint of his. Being those who were for loved by God and predestined to salvation, Christ shed his blood for their redemption, and there is no sin remaining on them that he himself did not take upon himself. The idea that there are quote unquote so-called Christians who are telling people that you can lose salvation is assuming that there's something ineffectual in what Christ did. Something in taking on our sin wasn't fully put upon him because the only way that you can fall for grace is to have sin unaccounted for by the death of Christ. What Christian is willing to say that? No true Christian can ever say that. Listen to what I'm saying. No true Christian can believe that. So every Christian that claims to be true, a true Christian who says that you can lose salvation, you are saying that there is something faulty in the redemptive work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and you are therefore not one of his. And can lose your salvation, you would be losing your salvation for a sin that was committed or a sin lived in. How did that sin escape the cross? If Christ died for you, how did that sin seep through the cracks? If you are a Christian and you lost your salvation, it will be because of sin. And if it's because of sin, how could that be if you say Christ died for you and washed away your sins by his blood? There were some sins that Christ didn't see. Sin that was hiding behind the door. You need to understand you're making our God to be a failure. And what does he say here in three? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect when it is God who justifies? This means that God has declared you righteous. And so any charge brought against any of us cannot stand. Why? Because God Himself has justified us. God Himself has justified us. Justification is a judicial act, a judicial declaration that settles their standing, your standing, my standing, my standing once and for all. Courthouse is closed for the Christian. There is no more need to be presented before the divine tribunal to assess your sin and what condemnation it deserves. Because the condemnation that we deserved was exacted just not on us but upon our Savior Himself. You better know this. You better know this. Since the highest authority has declared us righteous, there is no lesser accusation that can overturn that verdict.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

If you are teaching something other than this, you are lying.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

If you are listening with attentive ears to someone who is teaching something contrary to this, you are being deluded.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Amen. That's a fact.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Somebody might say, Oh, he's being arrogant and proud. No, I'm being confident in what my Lord has said. And I believe him. I believe him. You better believe him. You better believe him.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

Sister Sean, what do you think?

New Covenant As Will And Inheritance

SPEAKER_09 25:13

I think because I I know we've talked about this a lot, about standing up for what is right. And if you don't know, then go to someone who does know. And just looking at this scripture, right? Going even going back to 33, talking about laying a charge to God's elect. And it tells us that it's God that justifies. If we go back, it says that there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. And so that lets us know that if if at any point we're at a low point that we feel condemned, we can go back to the scripture and be encouraged because there's no condemnation to us. And so this charge, there is no charge. Because God has, G Christ Himself has done the work.

SPEAKER_04 26:11

That's right. He has. Meg, what do you think?

SPEAKER_08 26:17

I think I've been in here for a little bit and you are fired up and I love it. But I also think, let me ask you this though. So if this was the case, then the new covenant would not be an everlasting covenant. It would not be the covenant that was cut and made as the everlasting covenant because that because the Lord Jesus Christ is everlasting, therefore he makes a covenant that is everlasting. And if one could lose their salvation in this sense, then he wouldn't be everlasting, nor his covenant that he cut would be everlasting. There's so many errors in this when we think systematically about it throughout the entirety of Scripture.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

That's right. Christ, to go along with this covenant. What is a covenant? A covenant is another word for it, synonymous term is testament. Old covenant, new covenant, old testament, new testament. But another word that is also synonymous with these words covenant and testament is will. The willed. And when does the will go into effect? After the death. And that will had what he was bequeathing to his people. And it took him to die in order for us to have access to our inheritance. And then he will return. And he will take us to himself, where we will enjoy the very inheritance that he gave to us by way of his death. And when you understand this picture, it is beautiful. It's a beautiful picture. We need to understand we are his heirs because he died. And the greatest gift that was given to us by and through his death was eternal life. That was what was in the will, the testament. Eternal life. Go ahead.

John 3:16 Will And Belief Debate

SPEAKER_01 29:40

No, I I definitely agree with you, you know. He made a covenant with everybody. He made a covenant, you know, from Abraham to Noah to Isaac and to Jacob, you know. He he always had that will. I mean, that covenant with everybody.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Um but the greatest covenant that he made that I always tell everybody is the greatest covenant that God made is in John 3.16. Because you read throughout the Bible, God is a king. He's a commander, he's our commander in chief. So when he makes, you know what I'm saying? It's like the only time that I notice in the Bible that he never commands us. Because every single word that comes from him is, you know, is a commandment. The only time that I noticed that God doesn't make a commandment was in John 3.16. If you ever notice how John 3.16 is worded, he gives you permissive will. And then he gives you his will.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

You're reading all this into John 3.16? I don't see that.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

No, no, no. If you actually pay attention to John 3.16, it's the only time that he does not command us to, you know, to actually, you know, go for John 3. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 31:32

What do you think he was saying in John 3.16? What do you what do you what do you think John 3.16 is about?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

John 3.16, he gives you a man's will. He gives you, and when I say man's will, it's it goes for women too. He said, Yeah, yeah. You know, it's permissive will. Let me put it in in that term. It's permissive will, and you have God's will. And the way it's worded, the way he words it, he says, Whosoever shall believe in him.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

It's the only time that I've seen God not command us.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Okay, hold on one second. Let me let me let me back up a little bit. Because so you're right. Whosoever will believe. The issue is who are these people who do believe? And how do they come to that belief? Of their own will or of the salvation worked in them by God and through God.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Why that's two different things. No, no, no. Salvation is either made effectual in us by God, or we're left for our own to do it. So which one is it? Because it's one or the other.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

So what I'm saying is the way he is wording it. I'm not saying because all throughout the Bible, right? All throughout the Bible, you clearly hear him commanding people because he's a commander, he's our commander in chief.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

All right, okay, we'll go around and round on this one, but I I I I I I think I have an idea of what you're trying to say, but let me just tell you what is being said uh in my

What Israel Expected From Messiah

SPEAKER_03 33:32

mind. And you're free to disagree if you if you want to. Christ comes to earth. There's an expectation by his people that live in that other nation over there. There is an idea that these people have, which is that when the Messiah comes, he's going to be an earthly ruler to conquer earthly enemies. He's going to restore this Davidic kingdom. And they, with him, are going to destroy all the other nations and subdue all the other nations, and they're going to rule and dominate over the earth and over all the peoples of the earth. That's what they thought. They believed they were only his.