INTRODUCTION: The 70 Weeks of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27), part 1/5

Daniel 9 has launched a thousand prophecy charts, but we’re not interested in chart-building for its own sake. We want to know whether the “seventy weeks” is actually meant to drive Christian end times expectations, or whether modern dispensationalism has stretched the text into a timeline that forces a pre-tribulation rapture, a future seven-year tribulation, an Antichrist figure, and a long list of events that must happen before Jesus can return.

We trace the roots of dispensationalism through John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield, then ask the question most systems try to dodge: does dividing history into dispensations imply different ways of being saved? We push the panel to answer plainly, because if we can’t explain salvation clearly, we won’t explain the gospel clearly. The conversation keeps circling back to the same anchor points: justification by faith, saved by grace through faith, and Hebrews 11 as a lens for understanding Old Testament believers.

From there we move into eschatology and the urgency of the word “imminent.” If Christ’s return is truly imminent, what teachings quietly cancel that by requiring a sequence of future events? We examine common claims like a secret rapture, a tribulation period, 144,000 end-times evangelists, and a literal thousand-year earthly reign, and we ask whether those ideas fit with the hope of Christ’s any-moment return. We close with a sober thought about God gathering the last of Christ’s sheep and why that keeps us watchful without making speculation the center of our faith.

If this conversation sharpened your thinking, subscribe for more, share it with a friend who loves prophecy debates, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. What do you believe makes the return of Christ “imminent”?

Transcript

Daniel 9 And The 70 Weeks

SPEAKER_04 0:03

And uh Daniel nine is uh a chapter in the Bible where we get what is referred to as the prophecy of the 70 weeks or the 70 weeks prophecy and this is the chapter that uh the stories and the the perspective on biblical things as it pertains to a future seven-year tribulation, a pre-tribulation rapture, the anti all this, all the antichrist as a as this being, all this comes from this chapter. A lot of these things. Now in the 1800s, we had a couple of guys, one was a teacher, one was a student, the teacher was John Nelson Darby, the student was C.I. Schofield. And so for those of you who either have or have heard of the Schofield Reference Bible, this is the same Schofield that I'm talking about. And these guys, John Darby created, and C.I. Schofield popularized a theory of the biblical interpretation, actually, of biblical interpretation as a whole. And they came up with with a with a theological system that has been referred to as dispensationalism. Dispensationalism. Now, the problem with dispensationalism is that it suggests that there is a different mode or a different process for salvation in each dispensation, a dispensation being an era or a period of time. And so, according to the dispensational perspective, according to the dispensational teaching, we are in the dispensation of grace. Of grace. This dispensation I'm going to come back to in a second. However, the first dispensation would be referred to as the Adamic era or the Adamic Age or the Adamic Dispensation. Dispensation means age or era or or age or era. That's what dispensation is. So you we have the adamic dispensation, we have the Noahic dispensation, with Noah, we have the Mosaic dispensation, the Abrahamic dispensation, we have the Davidic dispensation, and we have this age of grace. So this this is how uh dispensationalism breaks out. Now that being said, in these dispensations, according to dispensationalism itself, it suggests that in each one of these eras or dispensations, salvation was different. So this leaves me, so in other words, there was a different way of obtaining salvation in each of these eras, in each of these dispensations.

Dispensationalism And Salvation By Era

SPEAKER_04 4:11

So my first question to the panel, and everybody when I call on you to ask, you know, I'm gonna ask you a question, and when I do, keep it short, keep it succinct. We don't want to take what I call tours around the entire theological system in the universe, but I want to get to the point of what we're talking about. So my first question is this does it do you believe or does it make sense that there is a different mode by which we are saved in each dispensation or in a different dispensation? In other words, are there multiple ways that people are saved throughout the history of the church or the history of Christianity or biblical religion? My first uh question, I'm gonna pose this question first to Jared. Jerry, are you there? All right, Glenn, are you there, brother? All right, so so far, you've you've heard what what I've been saying so far?

SPEAKER_06 5:28

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 5:29

So what are your thoughts? Okay, there are multiple dispensations, and do you believe that that the way of salvation is different in each? I need to tell you and if so, I'm gonna I'm gonna need you to explain why and to demonstrate it from the scriptures.

SPEAKER_06 5:48

Okay, well, I'm gonna start out by by giving a testimony, uh, and that's that's what I believe. You believe what? Here's what I believe. I believe in God the Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and hell.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

I know, I get it. Glenn, I get it.

SPEAKER_06 6:04

It all comes together there, brother. It all comes together.

SPEAKER_04 6:08

You know, Glenn, Glenn. Yeah, yeah. I want what here's what I want to do.

SPEAKER_05 6:15

Can I be the example for the answer?

SPEAKER_04 6:17

I want you to give me the straight answer. I don't want, I don't, I don't, I don't want to get into testimonies or history, none of that. I want it I my question is simple. Very simple. Do you believe in dispensationalism? And do you believe that salvation is different in in different dispensations? Simple as that. That's all I want to deal with. I don't need a backstory on anything else. I just want you to just answer that question.

SPEAKER_06 6:44

Well, I would have to do before I could be qualified to answer this question, I'd have to be more informed.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

All right, that's fair enough. Jerry, you're there, brother? Yes, sir. Dispensationalism. Seven different dispensations with seven different ways of being saved in each, one in one in each. Do you believe that or do you not believe that? And if so or not, why?

SPEAKER_02 7:11

I'm not as acquainted with the seven that you mentioned, but I know during the mosaical area, the the sacrifices were for the atonement of sin and for a short period of time.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Okay, my brother William, how you doing, brother? Are you there? Can you hear me? Or are you listening? Are you there? All right, light bearer. What about you? People are kind of shy tonight.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

No, I'm not. I believe to answer your question, yes. Um, am I familiar with the different ones? No, yeah, like the mosaic, but I believe that in certain periods of the Bible, there were there were times where God used certain situations in each time to save people.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

Like what so here's so here's so here's my follow-up question to you on that. So you're saying, are you suggesting that there are multiple ways by which men are saved?

SPEAKER_03 8:20

No.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

So do you want to re-answer that question again?

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm getting where you're getting that. I believe that there's one one way is through Jesus, but the way that person gets saved, I believe there's different ways. Like someone can have a near-death experience. That's not what I'm talking about. That's not what I'm talking about. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:47

I'm not talking about what we I'm not talking about what we as individually what we experience or whatever. What I'm asking you is here's what I'm getting at. When a person is saved, is it are there multiple ways whereby God provides, does God provide multiple ways for Christians to or for people to become saved and become Christians? That's what I'm asking. Is there one way of salvation or are there several?

SPEAKER_03 9:17

There's one way of salvation.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

And what is that one way?

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Uh through Jesus Christ. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Now, D. uh. I don't know if I got that right. I can't see the whole name. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_05 9:33

Brother Jonathan, you're teaching me patience tonight.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

Yes, sir. All right, Mr. Robinson. Let me ask you something. Are there more ways? Are there multiple ways of salvation, or is there just one?

SPEAKER_07 9:46

I don't want to stay. I don't want to be quite on the bush, quirong the bush with different scriptures. So the short answer is yes, there is one way to salvation.

SPEAKER_04 9:58

Okay, and what is that way?

SPEAKER_07 10:00

Jesus Christ. Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:03

Okay. So, Ben, are you there, Ben?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I can't let Meg see yet. There is only one way, truth, and life, Jesus Christ, John 14, 6 through 9. All right, brother. I have to say. All right, Sister Meg.

One Way Of Salvation

SPEAKER_05 10:26

It has from Genesis to Revelation, we have always been saved by grace through faith. That's what I believe.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

And this is what I was looking to hear. Always saved by grace through faith. Now, what does that imply, Jerry? What does that imply when it comes to Christians or believers who were saved under the old covenant versus believers who are saved under the new?

SPEAKER_02 10:59

That involves the grace will cover that whole period of time through faith. Those that live by faith, God will grant them that saving grace.

SPEAKER_04 11:11

So let me ask you a question. So are you are you saying that salvation for the New Testament Christian is the same as it was for the Old Testament Christian?

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Not in terms of what was asked of them.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

That's not what I'm asking. I'm just asking, was salvation, was the mode of salvation the same? For for Old Testament Christians or believers as well as New Testament believers. Was it the same?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

I I don't know how to answer that question because the the and I want to use the what you said, dispensation dispensationalism. Yeah, but but but but forget about that for a second. I'm looking at it, how God dealt with them in the first covenant is different from this the the second covenant. So how so? The way he dealt with the Jews were in a more physical type law, even though their heart may not have been in it, all they had to do was comply by the physical law.

SPEAKER_04 12:12

So let me ask you a question. Was Abraham was Abraham and Jacob and Isaac and David, all these people of the Old Testament, were they saved in a different way than we are today? Were they saved in a different way? How were they saved? Was it the same as we are today or was it different?

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Well, Abraham, it was accounted under righteousness because he believed God. He he obeyed God. How were you saved? So when I say Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, these were men and David. These were men that kept the faith and followed God.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

Here's what I'm asking, brother. I'm gonna stick with you until I get till I get there.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah, I have I have to go with my perspective of how I uh view the story, the whole story. Okay, so what is it?

SPEAKER_04 12:58

So they were saved different than we are today.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

They did, they were not, okay, for instance, I hear people mention a lot about the thief on the cross. Well, the Lord hadn't established his heavenly kingdom yet on earth, and he was in the gospels, it reveals that he chose twelve men to take the gospel to the rest of the world. He commissioned them, he gave them keys. So those keys that they used in the new covenant was different than what was required on the old covenant because he got symbolic salvation for the Jews going through the Red Sea, things like that. That's what I'm looking at.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

All right, so let me come to you, my friend, Mr. Ben Ben Cannon, I believe it is. What's your perspective, brother? Same question. Were Old Testament Christians saved the same way we are, or were they saved differently? And if so, how?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Answer eyes in Hebrews. They were justified by the faith that they had in the belief in the Father to begin with. It's answered in Hebrews. If you go and you read about it, it's by the faith by which they did it in the tells how they were justified by the faith and the works that they did added on to it. If you actually read everything in context to it, but yes, they were saved by the faith of the belief in the father alone at that point. That's what basically eternal life at that point.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

So here's so so let me ask let me ask this, let me ask this again to you, Brother Ben. Were they saved the same way we are saved?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

By the Lamb's blood at that old covenant, under under which point are you discussing? Because it's the same blood. Chris, listen here.

SPEAKER_04 14:49

I'm not asking trick questions. These are not trick questions. People are saved. We know that. There are those who are condemned. I'm asking a very simple question. And the thing is, if I can't get an answer for this, then how do you give an answer to the unbeliever?

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yes, they're saying by the faith. Yes. All right. Yes. Here we go. You know who the father is from the whole get-go, and it's the whole faith. So under the thing, if you realize who it is that died on that cross and who he proclaimed to be, then by the faith of who it is and what he said, and every word that he had, it's the same father, the sort of thing's the same blood, the whole thing, and the whole thing, and the whole Bible, it's the whole same thing. All right. So yes, in a way they're saved and justified by their faith.

SPEAKER_04 15:38

All right, so we're getting it. We now we're we're good we're going in it in a certain direction now. So so we is there anybody, is there anybody who was saved? And I'm asking this question now to Flavio, and then I'm gonna go to Meg. So my question is this Is there anybody who is saved who was not justified by faith? Flavio.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

No, impossible, no.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

All right, see, I like that kind of answer. Meg, what's your answer?

SPEAKER_05 16:19

Absolutely not. Hebrews chapter 11 says it all.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Brother light bearer, what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Same thing, impossible.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Jerry, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

I agree with what Flavio just said.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

All right, so so so that suggests to me that at least there's a small, there's a little bit of a consensus here that salvation is justification by faith. And so, and the idea is that if that is a requirement for salvation to be justified by faith, and that that justification by faith is what saves all of us, then I'm gonna ask the question again is there a difference between how old testament Christians came to faith versus New Testament believers?

SPEAKER_05 17:18

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

Flavio, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I think there is a nuance, but and and in the context, no.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

So, what's the nuance?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Because we we are living on the other side of the cross already, where that of what Jesus done is is is solidified in history, where the people in the old covenant were living off of hope of the Messiah's coming. That's what the whole the whole prophets and Moses were preaching about. So something that has not happened yet, but they've placed their faith in that the God will be faithful and the promise that he made to his people.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

So there's no ones. So let's keep that going on for a second. So if you read if you read Isaiah 53, which I'm sure you're familiar with, if you read Isaiah 53, what is the difference in what they would have understood versus what we understood today?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

I would say to the prophets, they would have understood it the exact same way. I think the nation of Israel would have seen, like, had very different views, obviously, as we know the Sadducees and Pharisees, but Israel as a whole had such a different view of what the prophets seen.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

I'm talking about the believers under the old covenant. I'm talking about I'm not talking about the Pharisees and Sadge, I'm talking about the believer. I'm talking about Abraham's, David's, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel. What I'm saying is, here's the thing. Faith is what's saved. We're saved by grace through faith, right? Amen. Everybody agrees with that. Yep. But what is or who is the object of our faith? Old coming or new? The Messiah. Amen. It's the Messiah. So I like when you use the word, when you use the word nuance, because the nuance here, I agree with you, there is a nuance, but I believe that the nuance has to do with which side of the cross you're on. Would that be fair? Of course, yep. Okay. All right, I'll see that. Okay. So now, that being said, as we go into Daniel, I talked about these dispensations.

Is Christ’s Return Imminent

SPEAKER_04 19:46

And much of dispensational eschatology is based on how you interpret Daniel 9, verses 24 through 27. Now, I am a pain sometimes in my own rear end because this subject is supremely important to me. And I'm gonna tell you the reason why. Because I do not believe with I do not believe dispensational eschatology. Not only that, I don't believe that Daniel 9 has anything to do with eschatology for the Christian today, because that would imply there's something left to be done prior to Christ's returning. So my next question for everybody here is this is the is the return of Jesus Christ imminent, or is there something on the so-called prophetical calendar that we can look to in the Bible and say, we know he cannot come until these things happen first? So my question is going to be this I'm gonna I'm gonna ask a couple people is his return imminent or is it not? Dr. Ray, Mr. Ray, what do you say?

SPEAKER_07 21:19

Actually, that's a great, great question. My answer with that would have to be if we look through the scriptures, sometimes you know that God has the power to change his mind. In in terms, if you look at the Old Testament, you see that God gave Israel the Sabbath as a particular covenant between him and the people of Israel, right? Uh but then we see that we are that was a shadow of things to come. Right? We are now under a new covenant, which is Christ, the spirit of Christ. So things have changed from the old covenant to the new covenant, where we are no longer under the old covenant. Covenant. So if we just want to have it set in stone that we have that we have to things must happen before Christ comes. God has the power and the right to change his mind to say, you know what? I'm gonna change my mind to remove in that these things must must happen for the fire come to come in right now.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

So but so let me ask you a question. Let me because so and and and not to be pushing you in a different direction. Please, anybody, if you if you got noise in the background, please mute it, please. All right, now so here's my question, brother. Um Mr. Ray, I'm gonna ask you again. In your mind, based on your under your understanding of the word of God, do you believe there is anything that prohibits based on biblical prophecy or whatever? Is it do you believe there's anything that prohibits the imminent return of Christ?

SPEAKER_07 23:09

No.

SPEAKER_04 23:10

All right. Ben, are you there, brother?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yes, and the answer to your question is imminent because the father knows when he's coming back, it's imminent.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

Right. So, but in your mind, is there anything that needs to happen first before he comes?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

As of today, no, it's imminent upon his own whenever he's come, it's imminent. We don't know. All right, brother.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

All right, I appreciate that. Jerry, what about what do you think, brother?

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Uh you know, the way you ask questions, it depends on the way you hear it. So, if in the frame mind of what we studied last night, right, I'm pretty sure you're pointing to imminent.

SPEAKER_04 23:57

But hold on, I'm asking what you think.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

But I'm coming. Okay. I'm just reminded of the scripture about until the last Gentile comes in or something to that reverence, and then he'll return. His return is imminent, obviously. The father's son.

SPEAKER_04 24:15

But here's the here's but brother Jerry, here's the thing. To a lot of people, it's not imminent.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

I don't believe it all that other kingdom establishment, all that kind of stuff. Jesus coming back one time, that's it. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

But I mean, so so so let me let me lay a little let me lay a little bit more groundwork, okay?

Rapture And Tribulation Claims Tested

SPEAKER_04 24:34

Because introducing the in the interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel. So this is groundwork. So what I'm getting at is this the way dispensationalism, the way dispensationalism interprets Daniel 9, there's a lot of things left that we can be sure that Christ is not returning until these things happen. For example, there are many Christians who believe that there has to be a pre-tribulation rapture. I don't believe that. All right. So hope so follow me. Stick with me here for a second, Jerry. So that's one thing, and I don't believe it either. Here's the other thing. They believe that this seven-year, I mean that this pre-tribulation rapture follows, is followed by a seven-year period of tribulation. Which also means that if that is the truth, Christ's return is not imminent. Here's another thing. They believe that there's got to be, during this tribulation, 144,000 super Jews who can be running around saving people without the gospel or the Holy Spirit. That means the return of Christ cannot be imminent. They also say that at the end of the tribulation period, it ushers in the millennial reign that has been described and interpreted by dispensationalism as being something that is earthly, even though Christ said his kingdom would not be of this world, but this is what they say. And they say that this follows the seven-year tribulation, which also means that there is, if you take that literally like the dispensationalists do, the 1,000 years is a literal 1,000 years, which means that if the rapture took place today, according to their system, if the rapture took place today, there is a at least under their system of theology, in terms of future things, there's 1,007 years before Christ returns, which means his return is not imminent. So my point is this. What I'm asking is this when we talk about his imminent return, that means there is nothing else that need be fulfilled to prevent his coming. He could come tonight if his return is imminent. Which is, by the way, so I'm not holding any secrets, I do not believe that there's anything that precedes our Lord's return. I believe he can return tonight. There's nothing left that need be fulfilled. There's no Old Testament scripture that needs to be fulfilled to precede the coming of our Lord. So that's that's my official position. And but as I want to go through these, these these passages in these in these scriptures in this subject, I want to try, I want it, I want to solicit your generous ears to converse with me on this issue and see if I got it right or if I got it wrong. Now, Meg, I'm asking you now. The return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and when I say return, I mean to return to end it all. Not some secret rapture, whatever it may be, is the return of Christ imminent?

SPEAKER_05 28:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

If I'm gonna be honest, I can't ground, I can't ground myself scripturally, at least to my understanding now, to really say a point. I don't like to give opinions that I don't have the Bible to back it up.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Man, I'm telling you what, brother, we gotta have more people like you and my brother Lightbird up there, because there's nothing, there's nothing more heartwarming than when people just say, I can't back that up yet. And I'm always appreciative of folks like you guys like that say that because I try to be that person as well, and I understand what it's like to be wrong, and it's humiliating when you find out you've been wrong for a long time, like I experienced early on in my Christian life. So I appreciate you, Flavio, for that. I really do, brother. I really do. Of course. We need more people like that. And so now, Jerry, let me ask you again. What's your thoughts? Eminent or not? I know we talked about it, but I want to say it again. I want to ask you again.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

I I need your help. Are you familiar with the scripture that I'm talking about to the Gentiles we gathered in?

SPEAKER_04 29:48

I have an idea what you're talking about. Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Yeah. So to me, that there's a timetable only the father knows. Right. That's what I was thinking. When the last gentile comes in, boom. You know, so but the the idea, the ideology that you're talking about here, about the imminent, is firm, fixed in my mind.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

Got it. Well, see, so let me so let me add something to that, Jerry, because I I think that that is a very, very good, good uh

The Elect And The Last Sheep

SPEAKER_04 30:17

statement. And I'm gonna tell you the reason why. Because the the Christ's return is imminent. It is imminent. This is what I believe. And Ben, I'm gonna come back and ask. I'm gonna come back to you next. So here's the thing. We I believe that God has a chosen, elect people. There's a finite, excuse me, there's a finite number of believers that God the Father gave to his son to come to earth to redeem. A finite number of people. It's a fixed number. I don't know if it's I don't know if it's two billion, ten billion, thirty billion. I don't know what the number is. Depends on how long earth may go on. But he doesn't tell us who his elect people are. We are responsible to know where we stand in relationship to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. I'm sure all of us agree. Now, that being said, since we don't know the number and the individuals, we don't know, but God knows. So I agree with you, Jerry, in this in this regard, that the world will continue as it is until God brings in that last of his elect individuals to be saved. He will bring them so so if there's anything that in other words, the reason why his return hasn't happened yet is because all of his people have not been brought into the sheepfold yet. And this is what I think. Does anybody disagree? And if so, why? I'll start with you, Ben.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

That was exactly the question I was gonna ask you was has all of his sheep been counted and counted before him yet? And those whom he called have they all heard his voice yet? Well, the last trade that he went and tried to get, has it been called? Because only when all those are gathered back into has the word that you shed sheep owed where he is.