Revelation: Church of Laodicea (Rev.3:14-22), part 2/4

If you’ve ever heard someone say, “Jesus was created,” or “I’m a Christian but I keep it private,” we tackle both with a Bible-open, no-fog conversation that goes from Genesis to Revelation. We start with Christ as “the beginning of creation” and make the distinction that changes everything: Jesus isn’t the first thing God made, He’s the source of all that is made. We connect Colossians language about Christ being before all things, and we tie it to Jesus’ own words, “Before Abraham was I AM,” to show why the church has always confessed His full divinity. 

Then we shift to Revelation 3 and the church in Laodicea, where Jesus gives a warning that’s as graphic as it is unforgettable: lukewarm religion makes Him sick. We talk through what “neither hot nor cold” really means, why neutrality is not spiritual safety, and how a comfortable, self-satisfied faith can wear Christ’s name while avoiding Christ’s claims. We also address the common misuse of these verses to argue about losing salvation, and we frame salvation as new creation and real regeneration. 

The most practical part lands close to home: why speaking clearly about Jesus often brings conflict at work, with friends, and even at family dinners. We reflect on Acts 4 and the simple courage of refusing to stop speaking about what we’ve seen and heard. If this challenged you, subscribe for more, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review telling us: where do you feel the strongest pull to stay lukewarm?

Transcript

Christ As Source Of Creation

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You could easily say, by the word, God created heaven and earth. By the principle, by the beginning, the beginning being the principle, the beginning being the word. By him, God created heaven and earth. And so you have the Spirit of God that moves upon the face of the deep, you know, and you have the Son of God saying, Let there be light. And you have the eternal Father ordering all these things to take place. It's a bigger discussion. But the point is, if you ever deal with somebody like this that wants to challenge you on this, we have to start. This is where you may, you know, get into a discussion that it's important for you to look at. And I'm throwing this out for your own personal study time to look at it because it's a very interesting passage. But Christ is the beginning of creation. In other words, he is the source of it. He is the principle, the principal architect in God's creation. And that's what this is expressive of. And so this doesn't mean here when it says that he's the beginning of creation, it doesn't mean that he is a created being, but that he is the source. He's the head of creation. That's what it is talking about. And so that word source, that I think it was Mariah that used that, it's a perfect word. Perfect word. He's the source of it all. It is from him that it all creation springs.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

So, so, okay, in saying that, when you are questioned, so is Jesus God?

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Yes, he is.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yes, he is.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Because my my answer would go to John, first John, when when when you think about the Last Supper, and Philip asked, can we see God? And Jesus said, If you see, if you know me, then you know the Father.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Absolutely. Right there with you, sister. Mariah, go ahead. Mariah? Oh, Jesus.

SPEAKER_07 2:13

Yes, sir. So it it, you know, in Colossians, it says that he is before all things. This is the same kind of language that he's using, just a different word. He's the beginning. Yeah. So before all creation, the beginning of creation, it's the same language, just in different terms. Also, it says like he's the firstborn of every creature. And everything that we know here, known to man, is a creature or creation itself, according to God. So Colossians is a good one to double down on if you want to refer to refer them to him being God and what it actually means to be the beginning of the of creation.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Yeah, he Christ, he is the beginning. He's the principle, he's the primary, you know, in this whole thing. Because remember, this this this whole creation was made to be governed by men. It was something God made for mankind, humankind. Of course, we all know what happened. Man fell, fumbled, dropped the ball, died, and then we all died in Adam. But then God was not giving up on this plan because we know that this would not have happened if it was not part of his plan, his eternal decree. But his eternal decree involved the Son of God becoming a man and taking authority over the creation that God has given to man. And so when Christ is referred to as the firstborn, as a firstborn, this is a perfect description description of his divinity. Because how could he be the firstborn of all creation and all things unless he was before all things that were created? So it's very easy.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Right. Am I not making sense to anybody? Let me know, be honest with you if I'm not making sense, because I want to clear it up. Because the only way he can be before, like Mariah just said, or the only way he can be the firstborn of all creation is for him to have preceded creation. So this is evidence, especially to these foolish people who say that Christ is not God. That the Son is not God. He is God. And so that was the evidence of that. He is, that's right, make the eternal son of God. And so, and so I just threw that out there just to give you guys something and to get the you know the uh brain cells jump started here. Not that you guys need that, but to get you thinking about these things.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I know because mine is taken away. Because I remembering right in in the Gospel of John, where he was talking to the people, and and okay, I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember it exactly, but when he was talking to them, and it was like before Abraham. Right. Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Yep. Before Abraham was I am.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I am, yeah. And and that frustrated them because you know, you're only 35 years old. You're not even 35. How could you be here before Abraham?

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

You know, it it was it was, yeah. Okay, you got it, you got it. Okay, I'm I'm signing off.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

That's all right, that's all right. You being sliding, we like that. We want you hot, not cold or lukewarm.

Lord Of The First And New

SPEAKER_02 5:52

All right, so the one who speaks to Laodicea, Christ, he is therefore not just some advisor to the church, but he's the sovereign lord of the first creation and the new creation that we now as believers are participants in through the new birth. And so he's the author of that new creation as well. And see, this is important because when we think of creation, when we go back to Genesis, which tells us what creation is, something that does not exist comes into existence. This is ex nihilo, out of nothing. So when a Christian is regenerated and comes to faith, Paul calls it a new creation. We are new creatures in Christ, new wills, new hearts, new desires. And we we we are from birth, we learn to despise everything that our Lord despises. We are new creatures, created from nothing. We are not, we may have the same bodies, the same voice, the same face, the same bill. We are everything that we were outwardly that the world saw, that our mothers and fathers saw, and our siblings saw, but we're not the same. The spirit that is in the excuse me, the spirit that is in the believer did not exist before. And this is a this is a blow to denomination or falsehood like the Mormon church. This is we are completely new people. The spirit that we had that drove everything is dying. But now we've been given this new, we've been we've been given this new spirit, this new heart, with new affections and new motivations. And so we need to remember that when we start when people start talking about Christians, for instance, losing their salvation and all that kind of nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

And Pastor, I mean, doesn't this go back to the lesson yesterday? The circumcision, instead of the circumcision of the outer flesh, we are circumcised in our hearts.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

That's right. That's right, sister. Amen. Verse 15, exactly right, Rosalind. So

Neither Hot Nor Cold

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Jesus goes on in verse 15, and he says, I know your works, that you are neither cold or hot. I would rather you be one or the other. I would rather that you were cold or hot. So Christ, he again he again begins with his perfect knowledge. He says to them, I know your works. You can't hide it from me. I know. I know. And Laodicea, they may have been satisfied with itself, but he was fully exposing them openly. And he says that their works were neither openly hostile, nor were they spiritually fervent. It was neither hot and it was not cold either. It was neither refreshing nor was it healing. They were neither zealous for Christ nor honestly opposed to Christ. Isn't this sound like a lot of people today? I'm not zealous for Christ, but I don't oppose him either. I'm for him, I'm not completely for him, but I'm not completely against him. These people, Christ says, I would rather you be one or the other. I'd rather you be an out and out atheist. I'd rather you despise everything about me or love me with your whole heart. But don't be in the middle because that is the worst place to be. Christ is giving us something, he's giving us insight into his expectations of his people. Is he not? He's giving us insight. He's telling us, don't be this kind of a person. Either be fervent in your love for Christ or despise him altogether. But don't be partially in with him and partially on the other side of it. Don't be like, well, I don't necessarily support him, but I don't necessarily oppose him. You know what that sounds like? Politics. Christ says, if you are going to be in part with me, if you're gonna have a part with me, it better be with everything you've got. Everything you got belongs to him, and he needs, he wants nothing less than a soul to be hot for him, to be fervent, to be on fire for Christ. And so the danger here is not just the weakness, but it's this complacent, as I mentioned earlier, it's this complacency, this complacent indifference. Yeah, I mean that can go that way. Yeah, it might not go that way. See, we have to respond to him with certainty. We need to be adamant about our worship and service to him. We need to have, we need to be on fire for him at all times. At all times. There is, he he declares that this type of neutrality, he hates it. He hates it. Christians, what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Fire. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Can you can you give me see with

Bible Examples Of Lukewarmness

SPEAKER_01 12:10

me? I I like clarity. Can you give me a good example that's in the Bible of someone that was like this? Yes. Luke?

SPEAKER_02 12:31

All right. Well, let's let me well, first of all, let me let me get to that next. I want to get to Lisa's question first.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

No, that's all right. And I'm gonna get I'm gonna get we're gonna get to that next. Lisa, you got something you wanted to say first.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

So I have a question on clarity. Would you say that a lukewarm person is one or could be one of these that say that says, you know, I don't, I don't push my religion on anyone. Jesus, I love Jesus. He's my personal Lord and Savior, and I just keep that, you know, it's between us, and I don't want to, you know, you know that type of person that doesn't want to share the gospel, doesn't want to confront anyone, doesn't want to. Okay, excellent.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Yep, that's that's right. Now, Roslin asked a good question. Examples from the Bible. I like that kind of question because it takes us to the Bible. I'm gonna go around, I'm gonna give everybody a shot at giving an answer. Can you find an example in the scriptures where this person of a lukewarm person? I'll start with you, Terry. Who do you what examples from scripture can you gather?

SPEAKER_04 13:31

Just give us a maybe, maybe John the Baptist's father, Zachariah. Uh gee, I really don't know.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Okay. Sister Vanessa.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

Yeah, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Vanessa, can you think of one?

SPEAKER_04 13:47

Jesus thought he was. I'm trying to. Cain.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Cain? That's one. I would say Judas is one as well. Cal in the comments gave a great one, the rich young ruler. That's a great one. Yeah. That's a great one. Meg, what do you think? Who can you think of?

SPEAKER_05 14:07

Nicodemus.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Nicodemus. That's another good one. That's another good one. Uh, Mariah, can you think of one?

SPEAKER_07 14:20

No, not right now, but you guys are going down the path in which I accept because a lot of times people try to make these people believers and make them people who are gonna lose their salvation or something. And it's actually people that need to repent, you know, to come to the truth.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

So what we have to understand here is that Christ knows, and because he's gonna he's gonna point out something later on in this in these verses where he definitely hones in on the individuals. Because remember, the church, the church of Laodicea, like all the churches in Revelation, and like all churches on earth, you have a lot of people, a lot of people who are part of the church, the outward visible church, and they are not necessarily believers. So when we look at these things, we have to look at these, we have to look at these as people who sort of claim to be a part of the covenant that we're that we're part of, but yet show themselves not to be in the long run. Meg, you better brought up King Saul. That's the first one that comes to my mind. What about Lot? Lot was another one. He was another one. Job's wife? Job's wife was another one. She was another one. You know, there is the the Bible has a lot. How about you can make an argument for Balaam? You can make an argument for him. So you have who?

SPEAKER_04 15:53

Rachel. She hid the uh idols. Leah and Rachel. Rachel.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

I have to think about that one. Yeah, that that that there could be something there just to be said about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

But the but the point is, you know, you can I asked that question because why you were while you were explaining, you know who came to my mind? Who? Ananias and his wife, who bedded against the Holy Spirit, who claimed to be Christians, but when Peter, when Peter and them and all the people gave what they had, Ananias and his wife sold everything they had, and they gave part to Peter, and they put back some.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

And that's what Peter called betting against the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

He was lying to the Holy Spirit. He's what he told me.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

He was lying to the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Yeah, that's a good one, actually. That's a good one, especially because this was an issue of wealth. You know, that they that they were they were going like, I don't need to give up everything. But that's a really good example there. That's a really good example. But I I do think that I think that going forward, I think a lot of us might look at this as we as we read through scripture and see this. So I hope you do that. But I think it's a really good, I think it's a very good, excellent question to ask, and it may it does make you think, as as it was clear

Ashamed Faith And False Security

SPEAKER_02 17:29

here. It makes you think. So, you know, one thing about opposition, open opposition to the Lord is obviously grievous. Open opposition is it's a bad thing to be on the other side of Christ. But a lukewarm profession is especially offensive because it wears the name of Christ while lacking the zeal for his glory. So when you see these people, like somebody was saying earlier about, well, I think it was Lisa, you know, I've been saved since I was, you know, negative three and a half, and I was baptized when I was in my mom's womb. But, you know, I see, you know, Christ didn't really, you know, I mean, I'm saved, it's personal. I don't really talk about it. I don't like to debate about the word of God. I don't, you know, this mentality, when Christians, when they when they when they are, Paul talks about it in Romans 1, they are ashamed. They say they're Christians, but you'll never know it unless, unless you're, unless there's some circumstances that elicit this from them. They don't want people to know how how devoted they really are, but the reason why is because they're not devoted. They're not. And so we are plagued, plagued with this. The church is plagued with this in this 21st century. You know, and it's it's amazing. And but Christ, he says that in verse 16, he tells them, so because you are lukewarm, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, he says, I will spew you out of my mouth. The word is actually vomit. The picture of being vomited out is the same picture of the whale vomiting Jonah out in on into Nineveh, onto the shores of Nineveh. He says, I will vomit you out. Think about how hard that is. He's saying, I can't stomach you. That's literally what is being said about the lukewarm Christian. I can't stomach you. You make me sick. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ saying that about you? I would cry. Could you imagine him saying you make me sick, you make me want to vomit? See, when you when you when you're talking about the Lord, there's a there's a there's a fire, there's a heat that emanates from a believer. When they start talking about the Lord, you can't tell me what to talk about when I'm talking about the you can't tell me I can't talk about him. I don't care where it is. I could be on the job, it don't matter where it is. But there's something that ignites a Christian soul who knows the goodness of the Lord and what he's done for them. And it and it and it sets them off. They can't help themselves. You think I don't know when we have these discussions or whatever, that it that I'm aware of the restraint that people have. You guys want to you just want to shout out, you just want to scream out and jump in and say these things. I know that. Because that's what it that's what it does to a true believer. It makes you do that. We have to hold back sometimes. Even the Lord might be like, okay, hold on there, buddy. But what the but the idea is he loves this about his people. He loves this. And there's a certain amount of, I don't want to call it respect, but for lack of a better word, there's a certain amount of respect for somebody who goes all out in their opposition. But what he despises is these middle-of-the-road Christians. Well, I don't want to talk about it here in a city. This isn't, you know, we're talking about Thanksgiving. We're having Thanksgiving dinner. This is not where we talk about Christ. You know, this is even in the most opportune time to talk about truth and get away with it, so to speak, meaning without any, you know, fear of retribution, you think that around these times people will be talking about it. At Christmas time, they talk more about Santa Claus. Than they do about the Lord Jesus Christ. We teach kids about Santa Claus and not about the giving that the Lord does. And I'm sure that all of you can come up with all kinds of responses to this, and we can be all over the place with that. But the point is, Christ is trying to tell you, tell us all something here. Be hot or cold. Don't dip your foot and your toes in the water. Jump in. Jump all the way in. Belong to the family. Speak about his glory unashamedly. Forcefully. But that weakness that makes you resist the very desires that the Spirit of God is putting in you, and you resist that, that's weakness. And this is not good. This isn't good for any of it. It's not good for your soul. Terry, go ahead.

When Family Wants You Quiet

SPEAKER_04 23:10

You know, it's it's like things break your heart, you know, when you when you're out and you see certain things, the way people interact, or like, for example, something that really breaks my heart is Halloween. I just hate it. I absolutely can't stand the to see people dress their kids up with these costumes, and it breaks my heart. So I actually cry sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, it it it's there's so many things that we can go down to get on the list that will be forever down this list of things. But but but one of the things that that's that's like have you ever been somewhere and all of us have family members that know how we are? Because from the looks of this list of these people that are on the panel right now, everybody that I I know here, Roslyn is pretty much new, but everybody else I kind of I pretty much know. And here's something here's something that I know, and I wouldn't venture a guess that Roslyn is probably the same way. Wherever we go, we're probably a problem. And and you might and your family knows you're going to go somewhere, and they will they will tell you, can we not talk about this today? Can we can we not bring that up today? Has anybody ever experienced that? Can we can we can you you know just hold up a little bit today and not talk about the Lord? Or have you heard somebody say, is there anything else you talk about? Is there anything else you talk about? Can we talk about something else?

SPEAKER_01 24:53

No, why do you sister? I will let you pray over Thanksgiving dinner, but I want the prayer to be like 30 seconds long.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yep. Yep. And and this is what this is what this is what the world is about. This is how they do. And Christ, right here, when he says, I'm gonna vomit you out of my mouth, he's expressing a holy disgust. He's disgusted. He's disgusted toward a church that professes Christ, yet lives in this self-satisfied spiritual state of deadness. You say you know me, but he says spiritually, you are in a state of deadness. Lukewarm religion to Christ is nauseating because it is neither an honest unbelief nor is it a living faith. Pick one. Have an actual, be actually be an actual unbeliever or be actually on fire for the Lord. And so he's he he he is showing and showing us a disgust in such a way that you don't see it anywhere in the Bible like this. I can't think of one place in the Bible we have a language like this from the Lord Himself. It's unique language. It's just it's as unique as him saying, I never knew you. But this is what he holds out. So lukewarm religion to him is nauseating. It makes him sick, it makes him vomit. He's disgusted. And so the warning that he lays out here is shows that Christ does not preserve churches merely because they bear his name outwardly. You can call yourself a Christian all you want. It doesn't mean a thing if you are not on fire for the Lord, if you're not hot for him. Candy, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

You know, that's when you said that it took me the Lord, Lord, those that say Lord, Lord won't make it. Those are exactly, I believe, who we're talking about, those straddle, those fence straddlers. And lukewarm, I've always because even back in my younger, younger time of coming into the walk, I used to think that I was a fence straddler because I was still doing the things that I knew I shouldn't be doing. And it was like I would, I eventually, finally, it was like I would pray to the Lord, like, Lord, I don't want to be a fence straddler, like I'm on one side or the other because you know Satan owns the fence, you know? Yep. That's that's the joyous part about is what he does and how he does it. Yep. But in in this world, it's the people who know the truth, but they they live as if they're doing it themselves. And then it makes me think of the ones that the works, the work, the ones who think they have to work for their salvation. Right. Those are those lukewarm people. Right. And I don't know if the the soil of the the thorny, the thorny ground and the briars choking it out, but wouldn't that be considered part of your lukewarm people too?

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Oh, absolutely, especially that one, because the the the ones that are the the one, the seed where it falls into the ground where it springs up life and gets choked, it says that it gets choked by the riches of this world. And that's a perfect that that is a perfect example of what's happening here. They they are concerned about the cares of this world. And so, and and and so that's that's the lay of the seed in church. They're a very worldly church.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

They rather live through themselves than live and give God glory, creative praise.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Right, that's right. Absolutely, absolutely. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 29:08

Yeah, that that is the issue that I've always had is that people make it seem like there is a fence. There's no such thing as a fence. You're either saved or you're unsaved. Right. And and God says that it would have been better for them to not have known the way than to have known the way, right? Right and turned from it.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Right.

SPEAKER_07 29:33

And so I think that this is this is the point of it. And and it makes me so angry because people really use this to really sell the loss of salvation. They really use this as a as a means of coming against Christ and and against his promises. And it really just upsets me, probably more than any other verse, because they they take no time to truly understand the scripture, you know, and and pen God's words against his words against himself, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Yep. See, people are very comfortable. These are the people that never want to rock the boat on either side. That's that's a this is another good example. They don't they never want to rock the boat. So so they they they will do, they they become chameleons. They they will become whatever you are in the moment. Whatever, whatever allows them to sort of get by, and without doing too much too little, without doing too much. They they they don't want to, they want to keep the peace with everybody. And and I'm gonna tell you

Standing For Truth Brings Trouble

SPEAKER_02 30:45

something. Christians, listen to me on this one. This is true. My sister Vicky, listen to this, if you're there, the more you openly speak and stand on the Lord's truth, glorifying him, the more trouble you're gonna have in this world. And the reason why so few people are willing to be fervent in their zeal for the Lord is because they don't want the smoke from the world. But the true Christian can't help it. When you open your mouth and you speak, the devil is not gonna just stand by and go, oh, that's cool. He's like, this guy, this woman, they won't shut up, and there's nothing he can do. We're invincible, but you need to understand something. When you're gonna stand on the truth, you are inviting trouble, you're inviting it, and you're gonna get it, and we all get it in varying degrees and at different times. But what you need to understand is that this is for your good, it builds your soul, it builds character, it gives you a smidgen, a a small glimpse of what Christ had to endure, and whatever we get, we deserve. He didn't deserve any of it. Any of it. How can you keep your mouth shut when it comes to the one who saved your wretched, miserable, blind, sinning self? If you really know, see the people who speak out the most, who speak the heart, who are the most adamant for Christ, these are the people who have the best glimpses into just how good He has been to them. They know, they know something about the sinfulness of sin, and it wears them down, and they they get to overcome by never ceasing to shout out his glory and his praises. They can't help it. Hannah, can they help it, sister? Can you help it?

SPEAKER_06 33:13

Hallelujah. No, I cannot. I will never shut up.

We Cannot Stop Speaking

SPEAKER_06 33:17

I pulled up Acts 4 and I found the moment that this reminded me about. It says, So they called, this is Acts 4, verse 18. So they called the apostles back in and commanded them never again to speak or teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John replied, Do you think God wants us to obey you rather than him? We cannot stop telling about everything we have seen and heard.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Right. Amen. Good one, sister. Excellent. Excellent. I wish I had that verse in my notes. I didn't think of it. Excellent work, Dana. Let me let me let me let me say something else. You you guys have all heard that statement that somebody help me out here because I I forget the statement, but it's a statement that that says that when you repeat something over and over again and get the same result, that's insanity, right?

SPEAKER_05 34:19

Yes, it's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, that's insanity.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Right. Okay, so we are all insane, okay? Because here's what I'm saying. I'm glad to be insane. Exactly. How many times? Even in this, even in this group, amongst us, we've all become family over the over the years, right? How many times have we have we expressed to one another here and outside outside of these of this this session? Have we talked about things going bad when we try to share the gospel with somebody or try to open somebody's mind about the Lord or you know like being rejected, like Terry says, being rejected. And it it ails us, it causes us pain internally. We mourn over these lost souls. We would wonder why we're getting treated a certain way from these people. But you know what's crazy? We complain and we murmur about this, but you know what happens? And it's good that we do. And that's why we have each other. But here's the thing. And then what do we do? We encourage one another, and then we go right back out and doing it again. It never am I right? You can't help.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yeah, you can't help it. Let me say, let me let me say this, and I know, and I I I know that I'm not the only one.

Walking By The Spirit At Work

SPEAKER_01 35:48

I know that. But on my job, let me tell you something. When you have the Holy Spirit, guys, I am telling you that when something is not for you, or when someone that's on the job that has a opposite spirit, when I tell you your spirit arouse and arouse, but you got to keep the word of God, and you got to still be kind.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

And and I'm telling you that when I had these people that