ESSENTIAL BAPTISM - part 3/4

If you’ve ever heard “baptism saves” and felt your stomach drop, we get it and we slow the whole conversation down to the text. We start with a commitment we wish every Bible teacher would make: don’t say anything from God’s Word you can’t defend, and still leave room to admit you might be wrong. That’s the tone we’re aiming for, even when the topic is a flashpoint for churches and families.

We work through key passages that shape the debate around water baptism and salvation by grace through faith: Acts 16 and the jailer’s question, Acts 2:38 and “the gift of the Holy Spirit,” Acts 8 and apostolic laying on of hands, and 1 Corinthians 12:13 on being baptized into one body. Along the way we address the modern baggage people bring to “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” including Pentecostal and charismatic claims about tongues, being “slain in the Spirit,” and treating a dramatic experience as proof that someone is truly saved.

Then we camp out in 1 Peter 3:18–21 and Noah’s flood, where the Bible itself forces us to ask what kind of “saving” is in view, and why Peter immediately redirects us from outward washing to the inward reality of a clean conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There’s even a tense moment that gets resolved with a direct apology, because how we speak to each other is part of our witness too.

If you care about baptism, the Holy Spirit, and reading the book of Acts responsibly without turning disagreement into division, press play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves Scripture, and leave a review with the verse that most shapes your view.

Transcript

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A Covenant To Teach Carefully

SPEAKER_03 0:00

A covenant with my own heart as result of uh as a result of errors that I knew early on in my Christian life that I made. And the covenant that I made with myself is that from now on, whatever I said from the whatever I was saying from the word of God, whatever I was teaching from the word of God, that I would not say anything that I can't defend. Now, and what I also said, that doesn't mean I can't be wrong, because I can be wrong, and I have been wrong, even since then. But what I'm saying is that a student of the word of God, which I know you are, Jerry, I know you are. I want everybody to understand, I love this brother. I really do. This is just one of those things we disagree on. So, but but but what I'll but and so I know that when he says something, he's going to go to the scriptures and he's going to appeal to the scriptures to present his case as I'm going to do. Even if it means we come up with two different ends in terms of the results. But the whole idea is for us to have the conversation. It's a conversation that needs to be had, and it needs to be a conversation that needs to be had, like all biblical conversations.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

Let me say this, Jonathan. Go ahead, brother. For your audience's sake. When uh Jonathan and I had this conversation, I'm gonna honestly tell you, it drew us closer. It didn't draw us farther apart.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Amen, brother. Go ahead, brother.

Acts 16 And The Salvation Question

unknown 1:24

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 1:25

Can I can I bring up a passage, Jonathan?

unknown 1:28

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 1:30

Go ahead. It's Acts, Acts chapter 16, and I'm gonna start reading it in verse 28. And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved. You and your household. And they spoke, and they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Right.

SPEAKER_06 2:14

And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once. Amen. And all his family.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 2:23

So I saw this process, a beautiful process in this passage that I wanted to point out because they they asked very specifically, what must I do to be saved? And he said, believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. But then it was the word, right? We know faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word. Right. And and then it was the washing of the wounds, like you had just brought up with Paul McGrainy.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

Right.

SPEAKER_06 2:47

Anyways, that's all I wanted to add.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Right. No, no, no, but that's that that's the kind of that's the kind of of input that I want to try to elicit from everyone.

Is Baptism Required Or Expected

SPEAKER_03 3:00

From everyone. You know, and I also want to make sure that people understand, because I don't want anybody to walk away from here, whether they're listening or whether they're done or whether they are on the panel, to go and say, Jonathan said that you don't need to be baptized to be saved. I'm not, well, first of all, you don't, in my opinion. However, what I am saying is that every true Christian who is able should be baptized. Should be baptized. If you're on death row and you have no means to get baptized before you get to the electric chair, but you believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, there is nothing that is going to make me believe that that person is being cast into hell because they didn't weren't baptized in water.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Yeah, but if you're getting baptized before you go to prison, just make sure you, I mean, on death row, just make sure you dry off real quick, good. That water is not going to mix with that electricity.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

But but I but I get it. But see, this is the this is the dialogue that I think that that we're having that should that should happen, and I think it's a dialogue that should be heard by many people, by all people.

Acts 2:38 And Holy Spirit Terms

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Now, in Acts, I I was in Acts 230, 238. Now, Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now, when we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, what do what does the scripture of what does the scripture call the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit? Anybody. What is it called?

SPEAKER_04 4:37

To receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, what is it called? You mean are you saying what fire?

SPEAKER_05 4:45

Go ahead, Lisa. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 4:46

Oh, I um yeah, we're baptized by fire when we receive the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

The baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's what I'm this is what I'm getting at. The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_05 4:59

Brother, it's not it's not with fire. If you go back and read that passage, he's talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Okay, hold on, forget about the fire part, because the fire part speaks about judgment. Speaks about judgment. So let's talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. What is what is it, would you say, because I I know you like to be really precise. Yes, sir. So here's my question Do Christians receive a baptism of the Holy Spirit? No, sir. They don't.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

No, sir.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

So then what do you call the receiving of the Holy Spirit?

SPEAKER_05 5:34

Okay, the indwelling.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

But you don't call that a baptism.

SPEAKER_05 5:38

Jesus uh promised that he wouldn't leave the disciples as orphans, but that when he returned back to heaven, he would send, pray to the Father that he send the Holy Spirit. He was talking about the period of time when the Holy Spirit would be indwelling in believers.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Okay, so so let me so let me ask you this question then, Jerry. Yes, sir. It says in Acts 6 8, 16, for as he yet, meaning the Holy Spirit, had was fallen upon none of them, only they were baptized in the oh, I'm sorry, let me go back, let me go back. In Acts 8, 14, it says, Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them unto Peter and John, who when they were come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. For as he had, for as yet he was fallen on none of them, only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. So when when he when it when it says here that they had only that they had only been baptized in the name of the Jesus Christ, what do you think he what do you what do you think was being said there that only the baptism of Jesus Christ?

SPEAKER_05 6:55

I I love the fact that you're asking me that question.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Well, I know you're gonna love that you get to answer it.

Pentecost, Gifts, And Acts 8

SPEAKER_05 7:02

At Pentecost, we need to understand the establishment and the beginning of the church. Uh the the apostles are described as ignorant and unlearned men, but yet Jesus told them they had to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. How, in fact, were they going to be able to do that? Well, at Pentecost, he gave them the ability to do just that, but he also gave them another power because the church was brand new, like a baby. How is the church going to survive, thrive, and grow? He gave the apostles the ability to lay hands on new Christians and empowered by the Spirit as the Spirit determined to give them miraculous gifts because they didn't have a New Testament like we have to look at and read. So when every time they went to a new place, like Philip goes to Samaria, there's no Christians there. He preaches the gospel, they obey the gospel just like they did at Pentecost. But the apostle Philip is not an apostle, he can't impart unto them any spiritual gifts. And the church has to be established. So when the apostles hear about it, what do they do? They send two apostles down there to do just that.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

So let me ask you this question. So in 1 Corinthians 12, verse 13, when it says, For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free and have been made all to drink of one spirit, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_05 8:30

That means that those spiritual gifts can't uh were all imparted by the Holy Spirit as he saw fit.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

No, but what I'm saying is here's what it says specifically. Because I know you like to be precise. Yes. First Corinthians 12 13 says precisely, for by one spirit are we all baptized into one body. There's only one spirit, brother. No, that see, see, Jerry, just you see here, let's let's be honest about this thing.

SPEAKER_05 8:58

I'm I'm being as honest as I can, Jonathan. Don't accuse me of being dishonest when I'm trying to respond to what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 9:04

Jerry, Jerry, brother, come relax, brother. I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm having a constructive conversation, man, man. You said don't be dishonest. That's what you said. No, I did not say don't be dishonest. Listen, here's the thing. We're just having a conversation, Jerry.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

That's it. I know, but when you say to me, brother, I know you like to be precise, blah, blah, blah, but don't be dishonest. I mean, what does that say?

SPEAKER_03 9:25

All right, all right, all right, Jerry, Jerry, I apologize. Let's stop. Yeah, please. Let's stop. All right, now. Let's get let's go. I was wrong. I made a mistake. I didn't try to offend you. Not trying to offend you. Now, here's what I'm asking. Simple question. First Corinthians 12, 13. I'm trying to go there now. For by one spirit, are we all baptized into one body? What does that mean? Anybody tell me. I mean, I want to know, is it is it is it a baptism by the Holy Spirit or is it not? Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_05 10:06

I I do not believe that it is baptism of the Holy Spirit. When you obey the gospel, Peter said you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That means every believer.

SPEAKER_03 10:16

That's not what I'm asking you, though, Jerry. I'm asking you about 1 Corinthians 12, 13, brother.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

Right, but see, I explained to you there's a difference between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism that Peter preached at Pentecost. I can illustrate it. There's many, there's many other examples in here I can show to you.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

No, I believe I believe you can. I believe you can, but we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll go on because I can't look if if I can't get that sorted out, I don't know

Tongues Culture And Modern Confusion

SPEAKER_03 10:42

what else.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

I mean, because to me, to me, I mean, I don't understand how I think it's just like in a church, like when people say the baptism of the Holy Spirit, like what I've seen, and like I've gone to a Pentecostal church a couple times just because they were my friends, and I went, but as soon as they got what they call the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they started you know getting KO'd and like getting knocked out on the ground.

SPEAKER_06 11:16

Oh no, no.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

And they they would go and dance or move or speak in tongues, and then all of this other stuff, I guess. But that's what I think people say is getting baptized in the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Right. But I don't well, you know, I'm sure all of us have seen or heard of people being slain in the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Yeah, slain in the spirit, drunk, all the drunk in the spirit, all the stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

You know, and here's the thing. Like, like I'm not you hear Nicole? What'd you say?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

He's like, that's my favorite, getting drunk in the spirit.

SPEAKER_06 11:56

No, I think it's just about faith and faithful.

SPEAKER_05 12:02

Nicole, I could have sworn you were like, that's my favorite, but you talk so I was just thinking, Jonathan, even in that that example that you just cited in the eighth chapter there. Yeah. If you read the few verses down, you'll see that that Simon the Sorcerer, he wanted to buy that ability from the apostles.

SPEAKER_04 12:25

He was like, Can I invest in that?

SPEAKER_05 12:28

Yes, because he saw, it says clearly, he saw that the gift was given by the laying on the hands of the apostles.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Right. Yeah. See, here's one thing that I understand. I understand this. That when you read the scriptures, I understand that it is easy to come to a conclusion that that water baptism is essential to salvation. This is what I will admit that I can see, I can see, I don't believe it, but I can see why those who believe it, like my brother, I can see why they come to that conclusion. And they can make the argument for that conclusion. I just don't believe the argument is very strong. And I believe that the argument that salvation is by grace through faith alone, I believe that argument is way stronger. Especially when we deal with the whether we deal with the fact that salvation, because the one thing the one thing that holds the new covenant Christians together in fellowship with old covenant Christians is that we were all saved. The same way. And I know for a fact, and if somebody can show me different in the old covenant, where Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, Hezekiah, where any of these people were baptized in order to be saved. Because none of them were. I understand that. But the same gospel that we believe today is the same gospel that saved them.

SPEAKER_06 14:16

Can I disagree with both of you a little bit and say it a different way? And and maybe you guys can correct me in this. I've always seen it as throughout the whole of scriptures, whether we're talking about old or new, you see the Holy Spirit at work either with mankind, in mankind, or upon mankind. Right? And so as believers today, we we see in Ephesians 3, 14 through 19, that it's through the Holy Spirit within us that Jesus even dwells in our heart. And I think we see in 1 Corinthians 12 the gifts of the Spirit, the baptism of being upon. And I think there's an absolute unity and cohesion in that. That's that we're covered inside and out.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

I I don't I don't I don't think I disagree with anything you just said. I I really pardon me?

SPEAKER_06 15:14

I said amen, and then glory to God.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Yeah, I don't see a problem with I don't see a problem with anything that you just said right now. My my my only the funny thing is, I open up this message with a whole different beef.

SPEAKER_05 15:28

Go ahead and take it the way you want. What are you gonna say, Mark?

Reading Acts As Narrative Or Command

SPEAKER_00 15:32

I was just gonna ask the question, Jonathan, to you. Do you think the problem lies in how a person reads the book of Acts, whether they read it as a per descriptive book or a prescriptive book, and or not recognizing it as a narrative book? I think that because I was raised in exactly what you're talking about. Jesus' name, baptism, laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit, and that those keywords in the doctrine in which I held credentials with specifically said the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues. That was the issue I had uh with my denomination. So I think sometimes the error we run into is how we are reading the book of Acts, and so many errors I think enter into denomination is by how they read the book of Acts, because we still have churches today that I have brothers that pastor those type of churches that it takes a pastor to lay the hands on the person and pray over the person, and sometimes it takes weeks, months, and years before what they call receiving the Holy Spirit, which would be that initial physical evidence of hearing them speak in tune. Right. So that's just my view. Sometimes I think we read the book of Acts in a different light.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Right. I I I really believe that, and I believe a lot of people uh that that that hold to this thing, and and I'm not saying that about anybody here, Jerry or my brother, or anybody, I'm not saying that people started off with who started off with Pentecostal or charismatic leanings support this high this whole idea because there are people who say the same thing that, and they make the argument that if you have not been baptized with with by the Holy Spirit, which they say is evidenced by speaking tongues, you're not Christian. And so, but but I think that the all ambiguity should be clearly dismissed. If we understand, excuse me, if we understand in believing that salvation is by grace through faith. I'm sorry. I I don't see how I can add anything to that. Baptism, if it were required, to me, I don't know how it falls outside the category of works-based uh works-based salvation, at least coupled with believing. So, and and and I know that there are many people, like my brother here, I know many people believe that. They believe that salvation is not complete unless you finish this last step. Some people, it's water baptism. Other people, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues. That that you're not, I mean, I sat with the people who told me when I first became Christian that if I had not, if I hadn't spoken in tongues, I was not a Christian. Now, me being the stubborn person that I am, I want to see that in the scriptures. And you don't. Nor do you see, even though people make the argument for it, that salvation is by baptism or salvation is by faith, grace, and baptism. I've never seen that anywhere in the Bible. Now, now however, that doesn't mean that you can't look in scripture and come to that conclusion one way or the other. I understand that people do that, but again, this is an exercise to have a discussion about. That's what it's about. That's what it's about. Discussing it.

Pastors, Platforms, And Real Discipleship

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Because I also think that that one thing I like about these platforms, I'll tell I'll say this real quick, is that I personally think that more pat more pastors should listen to these kinds of conversations. Because I believe that most pastors in the pulpits either don't know or don't care how their own congregants would answer these questions. Because I guarantee you there are people in my church and there might be people in your church who believe completely different on certain issues than what our pastors may be saying, but they may never know. And I think this is this is this is why I love this so much because we can speak to this whole thing. And I think, and I'm happy that my brother Big Gravy is here because his perspective is different, so that everyone here can go back and make their own assessment on what is involved in the actual salvation aspect, salvation process. What actually produces salvation, what is required. We know that repentance is required, we know that having faith is required, we know that the only way we come to repentance and faith is by the Holy Spirit, which seems to indicate that the Holy Spirit is the first and prime mover in all that makes that leads us to those things which makes us acceptable to God. But I have never seen in that process where baptism is part of it. Because if it was for salvation, in my opinion, in my opinion, and you're free. Anybody who disagrees with me, go to Big Gravy, his profile. I encourage you to go and ask him. And he and hear his arguments. I encourage that. I don't want to be on here like somebody who's pontificating and saying that this is what everybody must believe. No, I want to challenge you. So go to what his profile. He's a good man. He says a lot of true things. We just happen to disagree on this one. So I encourage you, you hear me. I encourage you also to go hear him. And you know what? I'll still be on his lives, and I hope he'll still be on mine in in you know, in in days to come.

SPEAKER_05 21:34

Oh, we ain't going nowhere, brother. You and I.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

No, see, I agree. I agree. You my brother no matter what. You know what I mean? But this is what to me this whole thing that we're talking about, even these differences, is bigger than us. We have to remember all of us are representing our Lord and Savior, right? All of us. All of us. And there's a certain, there's a certain uh disposition. That he should be able to expect from his people who claim to love him and to love his people. And anybody who loves the Lord Jesus Christ is my brother or sister. I just feel I have to say that. And so and so we are here to lean upon one another to forward the uh gospel that Christ has given to us to see that people come to faith in Jesus Christ. That's all. I don't want to I don't want to make this boring for people because I like to keep it exciting. But what I'm saying is I think that there's a lot here in heaven's life. I I really appreciate your last comment because I I don't disagree with any of that. Now, my brother Big Gravy's earlier mentioned about Noah.

Noah, 1 Peter 3, And Typology

SPEAKER_03 22:55

So let me go to 1 Peter chapter 3, verse 18 through 21. And here's what it says: For Christ also has once suffered sins, suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. By which, meaning the Holy Spirit, by which he also went and preached to the spirits who were in prison, which sometimes were disobedient, but once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now, here's where the where the issue comes in. And Jerry, you tell me if I if I'm if I if I'm nailing it from your perspective. It says here in verse 20, which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, wherein, meaning in the ark, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Then it says in verse 21, the like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us. Not the putting away the filter of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God. So everybody, I want to let my brother Jerry interpret this passage. And tell us what you think, Jerry. What is this saying?

SPEAKER_05 24:35

It's it's saying, it's ill is given the lesson that during the time of Noah, when Noah preached to the people that God was going to destroy their earth by water, that that water, Noah and his family heeded God's warning. They got in the ark and they were saved by the water that was coming to destroy mankind. They had been warned. And so they got into the ark. The water that saved them is the water that destroyed those that did not believe. I agree. And so uh then Peter makes the analogy. He says, The anti- what's what's the word? Antitype, or what's the word? The like figure. In the like figure figure, he said, baptism also saves now. And he's talking about not taking a bath. Not, you know, it's not like taking a bath, but it's an answer to God of a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It's a consecration. You can't go before God with unless your conscience is clear and clean.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Can I give an answer?

SPEAKER_04 25:42

Sure. Go ahead. Go ahead, please.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Okay, so I look at it this way. I look at it is that the ark was a typology of Christ. And the when Noah and his family went into the ark, they went into Christ. And the only way that you are saved is in Christ Jesus, right? I also see that the water can't save you, hence why all those other people aren't alive. Because, and then when it says, and God shut them in, I see that it's the Holy Spirit that you are sealed by. Because when God closed it, no man could open that door. So that's how I see that.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

I think that you created a very good baseline outline for a good sermon.

SPEAKER_05 26:48

Of course, of course, of course, Jonathan, you being a preacher, you can know that there are could be a type of church.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

That there was sorry, sorry, Jerry, say it again.

SPEAKER_05 26:58

There are could represent a type of church, of Christ's church, where the saved would be found.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

I don't disagree with that either. Yes. I don't disagree with that either. I think, listen, I think that the word of God, it really does, like Paul says, furnish us with everything that we need. And there are lots of things in the word of God that a lot of people can bring out. Like what Meg said, like what she said, I'm gonna tell you what I like, what I love so much about what she said. Because this is the kind of thing that comes from looking at the word of God and searching and drawing things from what we see in the Old Testament, especially, because I think I really believe this, that there is so much to be understood about what we understand in the New Testament by what is conveyed to us in the Old. And it's a shame that the Old Testament is ignored so much because it becomes difficult to explain anything in the New Testament to somebody without them, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you know, and it's like, you know, like I don't get into any, I don't, I no longer in my life, I no longer get involved with anybody having a discussion about Revelation who is not a student of the old of the Old Testament. I just don't, because they are never gonna get it. Never. Now, as for this passage in 1 Peter, which is which is a very important passage because this is a passage in in 1 Peter 3, verses 20 and 21, where many people use this to say, see, salvation, you need to be baptized by water in order to be saved. I get that. I get I get the connection, and I get how easy it is to come to this conclusion. But the real answer, as I said at the beginning of the conversation, is when it comes when it comes to salvation, Christ, and I don't think anybody here will disagree, Jerry included, nobody here will disagree. What Christ is getting at when he brings us to faith in him is getting to the heart. He wants to get to our hearts. Amen. This is what it is, it's getting to the heart. And so when we see when we see Noah's flood and the ark that was prepared, and eight souls that were in it were saved, I believe that what what what Meg said was a great picture. It's a great picture. I might steal it and draw a sermon out of this, but I won't tell her if I do. I'm just gonna steal it. But anyway, let me go on. But then it says, eight souls were saved by water, right? Then it says, but the like figure, the like figure wereunto, even baptism does also now save us. But let me before I go to that, let me finish the first part. The first part, eight souls were saved by water. My question is this when it says that these eight souls were saved by water, are we suggesting that all of them? And this is a question, and I I don't have a trick answer, there's not a trick question. What I want to ask people is when it says that the eight souls were saved by water, are we saying that they were saved with eternal salvation? Anybody?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Greg, what do you think? Not enough information. And when it when it says eight souls, I don't think it's talking about their eternal souls, it just means eight people. Eight people were saved from that judgment. And I don't think it speaks to their eternal destiny.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Mark, you there, brother? Yeah. What do you think? What the eight souls that were saved by Noah's flood, the Noah's Ark, were they saved eternally, eternal salvation by water?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Well, I think I think the word saved there has a doesn't always I think the error sometimes is when we look at a word and we take a universal definition and apply it to cover every time it's used. And just like we do with the word awe or world in a lot of passages. Right. So understanding how the word is used within its context and passage is important. So, no, I wouldn't say that it was eternally, their souls weren't eternally saved because of that, because we know that Noah had already been declared a righteous and holy man. Right. And God gave him the command to build the ark, gave him an ordinance or sacrament to build the ark, and that's what he'd done. But he was already declared, God already found him favorable and righteous. So it wasn't the ark that saved those eight, so they were already holy and righteous.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

And they were so, and they were so because of Noah. Yeah. Now, here's what's interesting that you brought up the word part, because the word saved, the word saved here in 1 Peter is only used twice in the entire Bible. It's only used twice. This is one of the places. It's only used twice in the entire Bible. You know, so and and so you're right. I I don't believe. Well, let me ask Jerry, because I know you we we were going back and forth. Jerry, do you believe this is talking about eternal salvation?

SPEAKER_05 32:18

When it's and when it's talking about what Noah said, I think Greg hit it right on the head with his answer. Uh Peter is talking about having a clear conscience with God. The only way a person, anyone can have a clear conscience with God is when they obey him. Right. And show true love and commitment to the Savior.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Jerry, I'm gonna tell you something right now. I'm gonna tell you right now, you're making me mad. And if I was with you in person right now, we'd have a fist fight right now. You know why? Because because this is this is where I thought you and me would be at variance most. And I find that for what you're saying right now, that we're not gonna be in that that position. And I'm gonna tell you the reason why. Because as my brother was just saying, I don't believe that this is talking about these eight souls being eternally saved. I don't think that's what it's talking about, but it's talking about simply the preservation that they had from that they that they were able to obtain as a result of their connection to Noah and going through the flood, and they obeyed Noah and blah, blah, blah. So we we get that part. But in verse 21, Peter says about

Baptism, Conscience, And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_03 33:28

the flood. He goes, the like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us. But he's but here's what he says: he says it's not the baptism that saves us. Because he says, not the putting away the filth of the flesh. In other words, not taking the dunk in the water, is what he's talking about. It is not the putting away the filth of the flesh, which is the baptism that saves, but the baptism that saves is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's what he is saying. It is not the water that cleanses me, it is the it is what it symbolizes because I have I have the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now I got a friend here that says that says hide, it says that's not what it means. So Hyde, if you want to come up or you want to explain it, tell us in the contents if there's anybody on the panel that disagrees.

SPEAKER_05 34:31

There is a little difference, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

All right, tell me what that is.

SPEAKER_05 34:35

When you think about washing filth off your flesh, you're talking about a bath. You don't think of it in terms of an immersion. And so he's talking about that this this is not talking about washing the filth off your flesh. This is totally dealing with your heart and your conscience.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

Okay, okay, so here's what I'll do. Let's let it this way. When it comes to the putting away the filth of the flesh, I won't argue that. I disagree with that, but I won't argue with that because the reality is what really matters here, the the nugget here, the morsel to be consumed, is the important part, which is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Yes. That is the issue.

SPEAKER_06 35:18

Couldn't we see that distinction in that Acts 16, where it's talking about the washing of the wounds and then the baptism?