5 Wasteful and Toxic Effects of Buying "New" - #3

We're talking about the importance of renewing and reusing in this episode with Kaveri Marathe, a sustainability expert. She also shares how buying "new" is impacting the environment and the lives of our global neighbors, and some tips for what we can do about it.  

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Serena: [00:00:00] I'm on a podcast with Kaveri Marathe, and this is someone that I am super excited to be talking to because I happened to meet her, I don't even remember how long ago was it that we did the Kojo Nnamdi show.

Kaveri: [00:00:13] At least six months. 

Serena: [00:00:14] Yeah, it's been like six months. He's a, um, he's not even just local. Right. I think maybe is he just local or do people hear him all over? It's NPR, but he may just be like a local celebrity, Kojo Nnamdi. But we had gotten a request to come in and talk to him and we were talking about the impact of buying secondhand versus buying new.

And she had some amazing stats and I thought if I ever start a podcast, I'm going to have her on because the topic was so important and you had a lot of knowledge and plus with your background, I think people could really benefit from  hearing this   there are some people who are trying to make new environmental goals. I know last year I made, probably about halfway through the year, I made a goal of not bringing home plastic. And I've been doing pretty good with that. So for the people who are interested in shopping more thrift stores now I want to kind of turn it over to you so that you can introduce yourself, give people a little bit of background about why you're interested in this topic of shopping second hand.

 We'll talk about the environmental impact. So welcome, Kaveri! 

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. This is always super fun and I really loved meeting you on the Kojo show too, so I was very happy to receive your request to do an interview. 

Kaveri: [00:01:31] So, I sort of fell into the world of sustainable fashion, kind of ass backwards, as I like to say.

I started with a focus on sustainability. So, I did my master’s in international relations with a focus on environmental policy, and from there went to work in sustainability consulting and did that for a few years. Um, internationally. So, I was working in Norway for two years and had been wanting to start my own business for a long time.

So, I came back to Washington DC where I had studied and decided to start a business, something focused on sustainability. It was like really looking for different things where I felt like I could make an impact and I sort of landed on the idea of making a line of sustainable fashion, because my family is from India originally.

And I know that my grandmother has all of these beautiful old saris that she doesn't wear anymore and they're like cotton and super soft. And I was like, well, I'm never going to really wear a sari everyday life. But I was like, what if I turn these into dresses that I could wear that'd be like really unique and beautiful?

So that was kind of my inspiration was to do a line of fashion and taking old saris and making them into new garments. And so as I started doing my research into the whole industry, I learned how much waste there is at the end of the life cycle of fashion. And so I kind of had this little epiphany where I was like, well, if I'm making new clothes, even if they're made out of old clothes, I'm still contributing to a problem if they're going to end up in landfill regardless. So, I decided to shift my, my business focus on the end of life of clothing and try to tackle waste. So, I ran a business called Textiles for about two years, where I offered a home pickup service of unwanted clothing to consumers in the DC area, and they could book a pickup on my website.

And they paid a fee, and I would come to their door, pick up their unwanted clothing, and then I brought it back to my facility. It was sorted. And then, either resell the wearable stuff. Or recycle or donate anything that was, like donate, I would do stuff like dress for success. I would give suits and then I would recycle anything that was sort of unwearable condition, stuff that had holes or stains or old linens, things like that.

And it would go to a shredder who would then turned it into things like installation or carpet padding. It would get, yeah, it would get down cycled. And so, I did that for about two years.  it was a great learning experience, but a very difficult business to run as a business to make a profit. Mainly because the margins were so slender, like trying to make, 

Serena: [00:04:16] I could imagine.

Kaveri: [00:04:17] Yeah. Trying to make money off of waste. It's like stuff that people don't want, right? Yeah. There's like not a ton of margin in there. So I actually shut my, shut my business down last year, but, I'm still working in sustainability, so I work as a consultant at the world bank now doing sustainability in house for our operations.

Serena: [00:04:36] Wow.  I'm just thinking of ways that people could do this. So, somebody might be listening to this and think, okay, this would be a really great business idea for them. Maybe there's not a lot of margin for making money from it, but the impact on the environment is huge.

And so, I can see how people would want to get involved in that.  Looking back, do you think that there'd be a way to make more of an income from it? Now that you've had a chance to, you've, you've kind of taken some time off from it. Do you think there'd be a way looking back like, "Oh, maybe I could have done this" or "I could have done that" to make your profit margins because I want, I really want someone to listen to this and think, you know, that's a great idea.

Like even though I can't become a millionaire off of this, it might be a way for me to earn some extra money, but can you think of ideas that maybe you could have done to make more money or how much someone would expect to make from something like this?  

Kaveri: [00:05:28] Yeah. So, I think there are a couple of different areas that if I were to do it again, I would focus on, so one area is actually a business waste.  These companies that will rent out sheets and towels to hotels and restaurants. They are turning and they will, they'll drop off clean linens, bring the dirty ones back, launder them, and then re-rent.

But because as you can imagine, these are like heavy duty industrial products, so they're getting holes and stains and they are tossing a lot of stuff at the end of each cycle. And that material is particularly desirable to the fiber recyclers because it's uniform in fiber type. It tends to be all single color.

Um, it doesn't have buttons and zippers that need to be removed like clothing does. And so that is a much better stream. And right now, those types of businesses, uh, landfill that material. So they're actually paying to throw that in the trash. So if it could be reclaimed and sent to a recycler who might want to actually pay for that material, there's definitely some margin in there that could be a potential option.

Serena: [00:06:39] Wow. I'm curious, there was an article that came out recently and I was curious to know if you had heard of it. They were talking about, you know, we just had the holidays, right? So everyone was buying gifts. Did you see the article? I don't remember if it was Washington Post.  It was about all the waste that gets trashed when people send things back.

 To me, it's mind blowing because when I, my husband had actually forwarded to me, and I didn't even really think about what these companies are doing, not just with the clothes that we buy, and then we get tired of it. But if we buy it and it doesn't fit, you know, we're doing a lot of online shopping, so once we send it back, these companies don't have the employees, the manpower, or don't want to spend the time seeing if it's even worth reselling.

They just dump it. And it's just mind blowing to me.  Did you hear about that article? Do you know anything about that, what these companies are doing? 

Kaveri: [00:07:33] I know, I know about that conceptually. Um, I hadn't read that particular article, but I'd love if you'd send it 

Serena: [00:07:39] to me, I'll have to find it and send it to you.

Kaveri: [00:07:41] Yeah, so it's interesting. There's actually a company based in DC called Optoro.com that is focused on this, and I think the term is reverse logistics, where they basically are helping brands like Macy's or Walmart, who when they get returns, sort of manage all of those returned products so that they're not losing all this money on it, but are still able to retrain, retain some value from it. But it's a, it's a huge problem because returns are one of these like sacred things, especially in American retail space where you have to offer a return option.

Yep. It's funny cause you go abroad, like if you go to Europe, so many brands are like, I have a much stricter return policies and we do. 

Serena: [00:08:31] Really? I guess in my mind, you're right. In my mind, I think, well, if I buy it and it doesn't fit, I can just send it back. I can just return it, you know? And my husband, he's the one that doesn't like to return anything.

If he were to order something that's too small, he would keep it. He would find someone that he could give it to, donate it or, the same thing as with food. You know, if we were to go to a restaurant, I remember when we were first dating, if something wasn't to my liking, I would send it back.

And he's like, what are you, what are you doing? They're just going to trash it. Like, you know, so he's someone who I think over the years, I mean, even though I love thrift stores, and I tend to buy things secondhand when I can, he's someone that really takes it to a different level of when you're ordering it, if it doesn't fit, someone can wear it.

Don't send food back because it's wasteful. It's disrespectful.  It's really unfortunate that we are this kind of society where we think, Oh, well, let me just order the green one and the blue one, and then I'll see which one I like and I'll just send it back and not realize the impact that it's having.

So let's talk about the impact of, of, you know, the, the end of life of clothing.  You had some really amazing stats when we had met last time, first time that we met. Um, can you share some of those stats? What, what is the impact of, of buying new? 

Kaveri: [00:09:49] Yes. So I'll start with kind of talking about some of the wastes.

So about 12 million tons of clothing ends up in landfills in America every year, comes out to about 80 pounds of clothing per person every year in America. So if you think about that, that's like an average, like kitchen size, trash bag is about 30 pounds. So it's, you know, like three of those trash bags full of clothing every year.

But each person's throwing in the trash. So not just like getting rid of or donating, like going into garbage. And if you look at the whole life cycle of clothing, the thing that is so crazy to me is that, when we go to the store and you go until it goes a Zara or an H & M and you buy something and it costs $5 or $10 or $20, it's signaling to you that it's not worth that much.

Serena: [00:10:49] Right.

Kaveri: [00:10:50] But that's because so much of the cost associated with manufacturing that garment has been externalized. So, um, it's not built into the actual final price that you pay. So that means that someone is getting short-changed usually laborers. So, you know, in the nineties, a lot of our markets opened up overseas and, uh, you know, due to trade agreements and et cetera.

So a ton of manufacturing got outsourced. Two places where the costs are not only cheaper, but there's fewer regulations and less oversight. So basically, people in developing countries who are stitching these garments are not being paid, you know, the value of their time to do it. And they are often in very unsafe working conditions.

So that's where corners are being cut. That's why some of the costs is being shaved off right there. And then there's also the environmental regulations also in these countries, a lot of times they don't have very strict environmental regulations around how much toxic dye you can release into the waterways in dying operations and stuff like that.

And so there's a huge environmental impact. And just thinking about the shipping emissions of flying everything, all the the fabric, the cotton might be grown in Texas, and then it's shipped overseas to Indonesia, and then it'll be shipped to India and then will be shipped multiple times before it ends up coming right back into a store.

And then you'll only wear it for maybe six months and then throw it in the garbage. So you look at the actual utility of that garment. It's just, it's so narrow, it's hugely wasteful, not just the fact that a usable garment's getting thrown in the trash, but just the amount of energy and resources and time that went into making that garment too.

Serena: [00:12:48] I think most people don't even realize, I mean, even as you're telling me this, I'm getting goosebumps because it's that light bulb moment where you realize, "Oh my gosh, I'm destroying--I mean, we know that we're destroying the planet, but when you think about something as fun for some people just go into the store and just buying a shirt just because they want to look nice and then they leave it in their closet.

I mean, how wasteful that is, the impact that it's having on the entire ecosystem, really. How do we let people know that this happens? I mean, other than just talking to people about it, is there something that we can do other than just buying second hand or, should we just not shop at all? What do we do? What do you recommend? 

Kaveri: [00:13:34] The best thing you can do is to shop your own closet. That's sort of the thing that I'll encourage people to do first, is really take a good look at what's in your closet right now and figure out, you know, what are the things that you actually use?

One of the things that you may be forgotten about, because they're like buried in your closet. A lot of people will ask me what I think about Marie Kondo, she's like this decluttering guru, and they're like, Oh, well, isn't she causing a lot of people to purge things?

And I'm like, yes, but that's not necessarily bad. I think what's great about her is her whole mindset towards ownership. So it's very much about being focused on owning a few things and things that you really love and use. And one thing I love about her is, which is something that I've implemented myself, is her whole method of how you actually store your garments in your own closet.

And yet just like totally changed how much I use my clothing because now I see everything that I have. So you know, she advocates for you rolling things and having them is rather than stacking so that you see every garment and that way you actually use everything. If it's a buried at the bottom of a pile, you're never going to use it because you, you know, out of sight out of mind.

So I would say start with looking at your own closet. Other things you can do or try going to clothing swaps, that's free. And then shopping secondhand is always great, especially if it's something you know that you need, a new pair of jeans, but it's not urgent. Like if you start looking at online, secondhand, secondhand sites or visiting your local, their stores, eventually you'll find it.

You know what I mean? 

Serena: [00:15:32] Exactly. Now, do you know of any particular sites that you love, like for online shopping for second hand? Um, clothing swaps. Is there a website that actually has clothing swaps where people could look for clothing swaps in their state? Do you know of any resources?

Kaveri: [00:15:50] So, um, for clothing swaps, I often look at Meetup. People will post, um, clothing swaps on there and also EventBright. So if you just do a search for clothing swaps in your area, you'll often find ones pop up. Um, Facebook is also great Facebook events.

People will post them on there. You can also host a quick swap. So that's, it's a really fun activity to do. I've done that a couple of times. 

Serena: [00:16:16] As well as wine and things like music. 

Kaveri: [00:16:18] Yeah, exactly. And you like make it fun. 

Serena: [00:16:20] Yeah, exactly. 

Kaveri: [00:16:21] It is. And the great thing about clothing swaps I have found, unlike your traditional shopping experience, is it is so much more like a community kind of thing where because you're not paying for the garments, you'll have a much more collaborative shopping experience. You'll like pick something out or someone will pick something out for you and be like, Hey, this will look great on you. Try it on, and then you come and you, you like model for everyone. Everyone's like, yeah, you should do it. You know? It's like so much more community-based 

Serena: [00:16:48] It's fun. It's social. It's a social event and not just, "Hey, I'm just going out to shop because I feel bad about myself, or I need to look good." It's, "Hey, I just want some, you know, interaction with people and, and you can have fun doing it." I've never actually done a clothing swap, but as you're talking about it, it makes me interested in trying one and then I can blog about it and maybe even do a video and show people how cool it is and inspire them. 

So are there any last tips that you would give people for trying to make some changes in their life so that they're not buying and contributing to this problem of too much shopping, too much buying new. I mean, is there, is there such a thing as too many donations? I mean, I have heard that some stores, some stores don't know what to do with all the donations, and sometimes they even trash things. So, you know, are there other things that we can do other than shop our own store and do clothing swaps? What else could we do?

Kaveri: [00:17:50] I would love to educate people a little bit about the whole second-hand clothing life cycle after you donate stuff, because you're absolutely right that, um, we simply get rid of too much clothing. Even the stuff that, you know, it's definitely better to donate rather than landfill.

Like you should really never landfill clothing. Yep. So even clothing that is holey or stained or old underwear, those things can still be turned into some material like stuffing in cushions or insulation and things like that. So I just encourage, if you have any type of garment, just launder it and make sure it's clean and dry and just put it in your donation bag.

Even if it's underwear. People are like, Oh, that's gross. But just like wash first. Definitely wash 

Serena: [00:18:41] it first. 

Good idea. Yeah. 

Kaveri: [00:18:45] But the thing is like. What, what ends up happening is 80% of donations that go to Goodwill and salvation army and charities does not get sold in your local store or even domestically in the United States.

It gets shipped overseas to developing countries, and the problem is that we have so much volume, like the volume of donations because of volume of clothing is increased so much. So like in the past 20 years, people have, um, people now buy 400% more clothing today than they did 20 years ago. It's shocking.

It's a lot. It's a lot. And so there's, you know, closets are getting bigger, but not, at the same rate as shopping. So, you know, people are purging a lot more too. And so these thrift stores are getting a lot more clothing, so that means more of it is getting shipped overseas and resold. The countries that are receiving it are getting lower quality stuff.

They're getting just overwhelmed. And so if it's not getting trashed here it might end up getting trashed somewhere else where they have poor, um, you know, like less regulated sanitation systems. So I really encourage people to think before they buy in the first place. And if you're going to buy something new, I think, you know, we all have to buy new stuff sometimes, and that's okay.

It's just being very thoughtful about it and asking yourself like, are there multiple ways that I am going to use this? Am I going to use this more than once? How long do I anticipate owning this garment and really investing in it? So not going to Zara and just like buying something cheap because it's cute and cheap, but saying, "I plan on using this for the next 10 years, let me invest and put a little bit more money into a higher quality garment that's going to stand the test of time."

And then also getting things repaired, maintaining your clothing well, following the care instructions. There's a really great book that came out called The Conscious Closet by Elizabeth Klein, and she has like a ton of great tips on how do you make your closet much more sustainable?

Actually, Thred Up, which is a great online secondhand site, ThredUp.com. They just released this fashion footprint calculator on their website where you can sort of take a quiz and calculate the footprint of your own closet. Kind of a great starting point for a lot of people.

Serena: [00:21:25] I'm sure it's very eye-opening. 

Kaveri: [00:21:28] Absolutely. 

Serena: [00:21:29] Yeah, those are great resources. I'll be sure to include those down below in the show notes.

Thank you so much, Kaveri, this has been amazing. I really hope that people enjoy listening to this. Where can people find you?  Do you blog? 

Kaveri: [00:21:43] Totally. So I, um, am semi active on social media.

I think now that I'm not running my business anymore, I'm, I've actually been intending to start blogging again. Um, so I'm going to blog on my own website, which is KaveriMarathe.com. 

Serena: [00:22:00] Okay. We'll leave a link down 

Kaveri: [00:22:02] Yeah, and then also you can find me, I think my Twitter handle is @KaveriMarathe, too.  

Serena: [00:22:08] Cool. Thank you so much. This has been really helpful.

Kaveri: [00:22:11] Yes, this has been super fun!

Yes, all the links are going to be down below in the show notes and thank you so much for watching and if you're watching on YouTube, thank you so much for listening. If you're listening in your car and we'll have another great episode for you next week. Come back. Thank you so much, Kaveri.

Thank you.