Ben Rothenberg: Professional Tennis Writer with Special Host, Megan Fernandez

Guest host, Megan Fernandez catches up with Ben Rothenberg in today’s episode. Ben shares about his career covering tennis and the release of his upcoming unauthorized biography, Naomi Osaka: Her Journey to Finding Her Power and Her Voice.

To review Megan’s original episode, please visit: https://communicationsredefined.com/megan-fernandez  

Follow Ben’s life and work here:
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/BenRothenberg
Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/benrothenbergwrites/?hl=en
No Challenges Remaining: https://nochallengesremaining.podbean.com/
I Later Learned podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-later-learned/id1716269109 

Australian Open: https://ausopen.com/
Maldives: https://visitmaldives.com/en
2012 Australian Open: https://archive.nytimes.com/straightsets.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/11/at-australian-open-a-busy-qualifying-day/
French Open: https://www.rolandgarros.com/en-us/
Wimbledon: https://www.wimbledon.com/index.html
US Open: https://www.usopen.org/index.html
International Tennis Writers Association: https://itwa.org/ 
Gael Monfils: https://racquetmag.com/2023/08/04/gael-monfils-joy-space/
Bianca Andreescu: https://nochallengesremaining.podbean.com/e/episode-354-bianca-andreescu/
SB Nation: https://www.sbnation.com/
Daily Forehand: https://www.thedailyforehand.com/ 
Martina Hingis / Roger Federer: https://www.sbnation.com/2011/8/19/2372946/hopman-cup-2011-roger-federer-martina-hingis 
Alexander Zverev (Racquet): https://racquetmag.com/2020/11/05/olyas-story/ Alexander Zverev (Slate): https://slate.com/culture/2021/08/alexander-zverev-domestic-abuse-allegations-olga-sharypova.html
Naomi Osaka: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/714087/naomi-osaka-by-ben-rothenberg/ 
                                                                    

Thank you for listening!  Please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe to the Media in Minutes podcast here or anywhere you get your podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/media-in-minutes/id1555710662  

Transcript

Angela Tuell: 0:05

Welcome to Media in Minutes. This is your host Angela Tuell. This podcast features in-depth interviews with those reports on the world around us. They share everything from their favorite stories to what happened behind the lens and give us a glimpse into their world. From our studio here at Communications Redefined, this is Media in Minutes. In today's episode, we have a guest host, Megan Fernandez. Megan is a past guest on the show from season one in June of 2021. She is an award winning magazine writer and editor as well as a tennis and travel expert. I'll let her introduce the media guests for today. Enjoy.

Megan Fernandez: 0:46

I'm Megan Fernandez, a friend of the show and a former guest. I'm a magazine writer and a former editor at Indianapolis Monthly magazine. I have dabbled in tennis writing over the years. So when I got a chance to guest host an episode and choose a person to interview I thought so about somebody whose career I've been watching for over a decade. And that is sports writer Ben Rothenberg, best known for covering tennis for the New York Times. In fact, Ben has distinguished himself as one of the leading tennis journalists in the world and a pretty young age and I've always wondered his backstory. Ben has also written for Slate and Racquet magazine and he hosts two podcasts, No Challenges Remaining on tennis, and I Later Learned about trivia. And earlier this month released his first book, an excellent biography of tennis superstar Naomi Osaka. We caught up with Ben just before he took off to follow the professional tennis circuit to Australia for most of January. And nice perk of the job if you can get it, and we're going to find out how he did. So welcome Ben Rothenberg.

Ben Rothenberg: 1:40

Thank you for having me, Megan.

Megan Fernandez: 1:41

How are you doing?

Ben Rothenberg: 1:43

Doing well. Excited to, excited having the book coming out and excited to be getting back on the road. It's always nice, yeah, spending a month of winter in Australia instead is a pretty solid perk of the tennis schedule.

Megan Fernandez: 1:55

Do you also go to the Maldives for the offseason like all the tennis stars?

Ben Rothenberg: 1:59

No, I do not. I get I get some of their travel itinerary but none of their travel budget. So, so no Maldives ever for me.

Megan Fernandez: 2:06

We are a little bit a bit ahead of the Australian Open starting. It's the first major of the tennis calendar, it starts in January. And do sports journalists do predictions? Is that professional?

Ben Rothenberg: 2:16

They can. So I get asked for them a lot. Sure. So I can do it if you want me to.

Megan Fernandez: 2:21

Yeah, I'd love my prediction. I guess we will we'll find out right away. Yeah, but just predictions are extremely, extremely difficult. So...

Ben Rothenberg: 2:28

Yeah, for sure. And especially before the draw comes out, I'll be talking about but wait, so but yes, but I mean, I think big picture. I think that Novak Djokovic on the men's side is remains a pretty strong favor, especially in Australia where he's won 10 titles. I think he's going for number 11 on this trip to get to 25, which is a nice square number, if you can reach it. So he's been doing Yeah, he's still the story, he's still the guy despite turning we're about the same age actually made joke in the gym three months older than him. So it's funny, we're both turning 37 in 2024. And I think I show way more science is complete is how he does the the distances between himself and everyone has come after him. It's really, really remarkable. And he has kind of the playing field to itself. It seems like with with Federer, retired and Nadal off. Than Nadal's coming back too so we'll see. I don't know that Nadal is gonna threaten Djokovic right away, but it'll be interesting to see what Rafa can make from his return.

Megan Fernandez: 3:23

Women's were it's actually yeah, that's a bold prediction Djokovic at the Australian Open.

Ben Rothenberg: 3:27

Yeah, very safe.

Megan Fernandez: 3:28

But it's you know what? You can't you have to do it. It's a boring prediction, but it's, it's the truth. What about women?

Ben Rothenberg: 3:34

The women is more open as it has been for a while certainly an Australian made joke, which again, being prohibitive there. There's been a lot of different stories on the women's side lately, including Naomi Yasaka, who's coming back and I don't know that she'll be in the mix for the very first Grand Slam, she plays, you know, in her first month back on tour. But she figures to if she, if things bear out how they look into preseason and they're looking very sharp, she she should be a relevant person on tour in 2024. At some point down later in the season. You know, I think Iga Swiatek would probably be my pick. I mean, she's she finished the year so strong with a really, really dominant run to the final in Cancun. And it sorry, the title and Cancun WTA finals of the year and championships event there. And I just like her a lot of things. She's the best talent of this generation. She's the one player who I look at, besides Naomi has been gone. But you know, look at Swiatek, I can think that her, her gifts would have translated to any generation. She would have been able to hang and be at the top of any other era of this sport, which I don't always see in a lot of the women who are there right now, I still think it's a bit of a transitional time in a lot of ways in women's tennis but Swiatek is the one who I think has the power to endure.

Megan Fernandez: 4:41

Have you really been making a living as primarily as a tennis journalist full time going to tournaments around the world for like a decade? Is that been your main, main job?

Ben Rothenberg: 4:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. I mean, you get slowly getting into it and in 2012 I mean, we I can get back sorry before that, too. I mean, like we know each other from my days as a college students on tennis message boards basically, which was where I sort of first started writing about tennis on the internet, even if it wasn't just send a message for which was a pre, largely a pre social media thing. They're still around some of them. But there was. Yeah, there you go. They're still there. I haven't been on too many of them lately, but they are still there. And I guess Reddit is kind of message board to in its own way if it's even more general interest. But yeah, that was where I sort of started writing about tennis, and then started a blog just shortly after finishing college, a tennis blog. The summer after, basically. And yeah, and then have been went right from blogging to working freelance for the New York Times around the 2011 US Open. Yeah - I've been doing it ever since. And with less on tour in the last 12 months, certainly than any time before that aside from the pandemic, just because I've been working on this book, and you know, things and things that I haven't worked on New York Times since the 2022 Australian Open. So it's been about two years now. Which the book was good timing for that. So, yeah.

Megan Fernandez: 6:02

We'll get in a little bit later to how you went from being on say message board as me New York Times, a little bit later. I have always wanted that story. But I wanted I wanted to let the readers know kind of the difference between your your sports writing career or tennis writer versus like what they might be familiar with, like an NBA writer. I mean, tennis is a global sport, it travel they say it follows the sun around the world. Starts in Australia, comes back to the US, it goes all over the world. And then some of the tennis journalists do, if not all of them, are in a position to afford that or have the time or whatever. But you've been to Wimbledon for work. Correct?

Ben Rothenberg: 6:39

Many times yeah. Yeah, once I once I sort of, certainly a lot of it in the early days, was paying my own way. I mean, bluntly, like I can say like my first time going to Australia in 2012, I would not have gone if my grandmother had not just died and left me, you know, some small four figure amount in her will. And that sort of funded my trip to Australia, which was my first time being credentialed on site for the New York Times, and that sort of jumpstarted stuff. And then yeah, that I was getting paid per piece, basically, and just rip would have enough work lined up being sort of the number two person for them. At the Grand Slams, usually behind Chris Clary, who was the main staff writer for the New York Times, right at the Grand Slams a few other people who didn't do 100 percent of the slams, he did about 70% of them. And those early days, you start doing 100% later on, but there are a few other staffers they would rotate through. And it'll depend on whether it was the Olympic year different sorts of factors would come up in terms of who they assigned, where they'd like to keeping, I think the fresh had been having some new eyes on the sport at different times, too. So there was some intentional rotation from some of the early leadership there. Yeah, but then from, I think, 2013 Wimbledon on, I went to every grand slam event for then through until the pandemic basically until 2020 Australian Open.

Megan Fernandez: 7:54

And for readers who don't know where those are, they are in...

Ben Rothenberg: 7:57

Wimbledon. The US Open. Australian Open and the French Open. So four years

Megan Fernandez: 8:03

London, Paris, Melbourne, New York. Yes, yes. So it's interesting because you you become very well traveled. I also go routinely to like Indian Wells, which is in Palm Springs. We go to Rome a lot, which was the big French Open, warm tournament. We go to Cincinnati, which is less glamorous of a world city or even like Mason, Ohio, which is like ten to fiften miles northeast of where I've seen you there in 40 miles northeast of Cincinnati downtown. And a

Ben Rothenberg: 8:29

I've actually I've not been to Dubai. Actually couple other places. Dubai I think if you Yeah, I think - I've not been to Dubai. Oh, I'm not for tennis. But I've connected through flights there all the way to Australia, actually. But But yeah, but with the Madrid a couple times been to Hollow which is grass court tournament in Germany a few times. I've been to Istanbul a couple times for tennis, you know, there's been a few different places. It's interesting though, because you it is once you are very well traveled to but the way I was doing it was very much they were work trips. And also you're kind of they kind of become the novelty goes off fairly quickly, because you're kind of doing the same thing. Like I've been to Melbourne, and we're about to go to Melbourne for I think the 11th time very soon, which is great. And I've not complained about it all but I've always been to Melbourne in like, mid late January. Like I don't know what Melbourne looks like any other time of year. But I've been there all the time for this one event to this one thing, and mostly not, you know, tourism type stuff. So, but it's been great, obviously traveling, working. I enjoyed it a lot. And certainly starting when I did fairly young did additional income for the first time. I was 24. So I had a lot of sort of energy and enthusiasm for the travel that is probably waning in my in my old age here.

Megan Fernandez: 9:44

Now it's not only the travel but it's hard to cover a tournament. I don't think you realize it's a I've heard you know, it's an all day thing. You're kind of stuck at the tournament for me over 12 hours sometimes, right?

Ben Rothenberg: 9:56

Yeah, definitely that I mean the way that certainly I covered it in my sort of ethos and a few other people in my third generation would do it basically it was more or less first bottle last ball get there, maybe not very first ball, but certainly get there around 11am. Right when matches are starting definitely in time for the first match to be finishing, for sure, because then people coming off court and talking to us. So very important to be there for by the time the first matches are finishing, if not starting, that's usually around 11 or so then to get there and then staying till the last ball, which had a lot of determined seven night sessions now can be around 1am routinely, then after that you have to wait. So, you know, to 2am to for person to come into the press conference. Then after that, if you need to write about that match, it might be another however long after that, too. So I have I have walked out of the Australian and also in Australia, the time difference of 16 hours with the US East Coast when I was filing for the New York Times. So it was a whole different considerations there in terms of when people were going to be awake in various different bureaus, The New York Times it would have like, you know, be one part of the day where you'd be refiling to the Singapore Bureau and another time for Paris or London and then it all sounds very glamorous, but it's basically just like being working like pulling all nighters. And yeah, I times when I walked out of the press room at the end of the night, and it was the sun had already risen. It was like six, 7am That was that was that happened several times.

Megan Fernandez: 11:11

Yeah, and it's it is glamorous of ways. And it but it's also hard. It sounds like very hard work and very long days. And now are you were normally sitting out on court watching a match and the sun or are you in a media bunker somewhere? What's the normal...

Ben Rothenberg: 11:28

Most of the time certainly the first half of the

Megan Fernandez: 11:28

Luckily, that didn't happen very much. ternament, I spend almost all of it in the press center. Unless I have a very specific assignment to do cover one big match. And it's very clear that I can are doing a profile once of a person and it's already lined up. But generally you have to be sort of at your desk because it's the nerve center of the tournament where you can hear when people are coming in for interviews when you can keep an eye on multiple courts at once. Being courtside and watching I've heard people say like we don't get paid to watch tennis we get paid to write about tennis and those are it's a very different experience right to produce the writing about the tennis it's not just there about being there, watching the balls and working on your tan and not that I can tan any way of how pale I am. But it's a you know it is a Yeah, it's a lot of there are certain writers who are more and ideally because they're like romantic sort of writers who write very florid a florid, you know, lyrical prose about the matches and the sounds and the smells of the court in the match whatever if they want to be out there and do that. Or some people just really like watching the tennis and are less fastidious about really caring about getting every detail of everything happened the tournament and and I that's how I'm wired, I'm kind of just like afraid of missing stuff and I something I did to train myself off of. So I'm not going to show

Ben Rothenberg: 12:41

Not too often. you this trip for like a newspaper covering it and that sort of be why I'm doing it a couple freelance pieces as I work on this book, rural rollout. So I'm gonna try to teach myself there trying to condition myself to be a little bit more leisurely and a little bit more enjoying the moment because I don't know how many more of these you know, who knows what the future holds, but it's yeah, it's a there's different ways of doing it, for sure and different it'd be you have to be I think the easiest way to explain it isn't tendency to be pretty quick on your toes because it can be an upset you know, you can have some plan to write a feature about some inspiring story and then joke a bit, let's say loses out of nowhere that day. And that becomes the story certainly involved with that would be the story that happened this year. So and whether you know, in my day, the most of my career the names that were around who would be sort of stop the prep stop, you know, change your plans to cover a loss would be like a Serena loss or a Sharapova loss often, or Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, like there's certain things that it's sort of a whole flowchart of if A, B, C, and D all go according to plan, then you can work on E otherwise things will supersede themselves.

Megan Fernandez: 13:47

Actually, maybe 2008 that's when I remember Federer starting to have a couple inexplicable worlds started shifting on its axis them but well, maybe now that you're independent, you could actually maybe have a drink when you're not on semblance. You know?

Ben Rothenberg: 14:01

Yeah. That's drinking is interesting part of the tennis culture. There's lots of lots of writers certainly British I think I can say probably fairly, it's not a stereotype to do like drinking more I am I am not a person who writes well intoxicated, my prose is very sober.

Megan Fernandez: 14:14

How do you know?

Ben Rothenberg: 14:16

I know because I would just get sleepy if I started drinking on the job, and it would not be a good look. And I'm always sort of cautious. Certainly. You know, when I was working the New York Times they're not wanting to be a sleepy drunk on the job with their name around my neck.

Megan Fernandez: 14:29

Yeah, that sounds like a good rule of thumb.

Ben Rothenberg: 14:30

You know, there's a lot of people generation before certainly who were I was making a lot of the Brits, especially to the very big press corps, a lot of daily newspapers who care a lot about tenants would have a traveling tennis correspondent full time it would write one piece a day and they would, you know, be sort of traveling on expense accounts and go out to big dinners whenever possible was a group. And they had a very different lifestyle than I did certainly. And then yeah, but that's their kind of that lifestyle is kind of fading out just with the changing media norms even in Britain, which has been I think, slower, where the papers and printers are more robust and more durable than in the US and a lot of cases, that still, that metric is still, I think largely, I think the past.

Megan Fernandez: 15:13

Do you feel like you've just missed out on it like this golden age of,

Ben Rothenberg: 15:16

I think I was there to see a lot of stuff get worse, not just not really aren't even on that part. But a few a few mean, I was there for a bunch of different stuff like, first of all, just the changes of, of social media with both in terms of how we cover this word as reporters, and also how players and agents can put up their own messages, too, there's a lot less dependence on reporters for getting the message out there that you want to, I think, I will argue that a lot of times I don't think that players, especially with a lot of the, you know, non professional, non expert help they have or lack thereof, do anywhere near as good a job of telling their own stories and their social media as they would with in the hands of the right reporter. And it can be hard to find the right reporter in the right outlet for a given story. But that's been a big shift. And then yeah, there's been also and this is, this is more recent, but it got exacerbated. Because the pandemic, there's been really this sort of walling off of what used to be a lot of access at tournaments, we're used to as credentialed reporters. And it's especially more senior credential reporters who are part of this thing called the International Tennis Writers Association, which is sort of the Association of basically traveling full time tennis writers. We used to get access very reliably to like the player lounges to other sort of corridors, in sort of the bowels of the stadium and in the sport, not into the locker rooms, which many sports journalists do get in nutritional big for North American Sports never, never locked room access in tennis, but you would get to be places where you could find parents or coaches or agents who you might need to and because under the sort of cover of a lot of pandemic health protocols, circa 2020 2021, a lot of those the access got restricted and a lot of it's been slow to come back or not at all, where they sort of want to create and this is actually not unrelated to Naomi, honestly. And her standoff with the sport with the with a tennis authorities ever not wanting to do press conferences and setting mental health. And that has had a lasting impact sometimes on the accessibility and the access. Yeah, for reporters to subjects, which is frustrating, because it's frustrating to travel somewhere and spend money, certainly, to go and not be able to get into a room where people you want to talk to are and so you have to rely on already having the phone numbers, already having whatever contacts, which for me is someone who's been off the tour a bit, even just for you know, last 12, 18 months, but less full time on tour. You know, I still there's still players who are new who I whose families and agents and coaches and stuff, I don't have as strong relationships with that. It'd be nice to have the chance to rebuild. So that's something yeah, that that's made it tougher from sort of a communications point of view for sure that the tour and the tournaments, it's kind of all balkanized in terms of who makes those decisions at any given week at any given tournament, but something I wish they were more sympathetic to or responsive to, in terms of doing their job and telling those stories well.

Megan Fernandez: 17:58

Right. So you don't think it says maybe in terms of other sports compared to other sports maybe it's not as media friendly of a sport to cover?

Ben Rothenberg: 18:05

No, definitely not. I don't think it is. And it's not as friendly about something, it's great. I think it's a great sport to write about, because it's individual. And I really like writing about individual sport compared to writing about when I've written about team sports, say, because I think individual athletes are a lot more candid. They're not trying, like, if you're in like an NHL locker room, it's just a setting I've had the most other experience with as a sports writer. So many times the guys are trying not to say anything, that'll rock the boat, not trying to say anything that will upset their teammates or sort of throw off the vibes or will make them say that they're trying to get attention. It's, it can be very cliched and very safe. A lot of time when you get on any sort of pun intended thin ice with a hockey player. You know, like they're sort of, they're sort of there wanting to keep the peace and not feel like they're part of a bigger whole. Whereas tennis players are only really responsible for themselves largely. They have sponsors, they're not going to be too crazy and say, you know, things that are too offensive or politically incorrect, sometimes whatever it may be. But the larger be able to be honest about themselves, as much as they want to that can go down to an individual personality types and people are more revealing than others or more reticent than others, as it may come on that spectrum. But yeah, I think in general, but at the same time in in going to NHL, for example, there's designated locker room times, dirt usually after practice and after the game where you can walk up to anybody on the team and and see if they want to talk we'll talk to you and almost always the answer is yes, for some amount of time. And you have that kind of freedom that you don't get from from tennis you can't get especially as I said, it's it's been more walled off. And more of the walling off. It's more about the coaches and agents I mean, almost almost always will try to get there's an official system you use at tournaments to request interviews with players and usually I will try to get players through those channels or through the agents sometime if it's an outside thing I'm not going up to players usually in the in the lounges or whatever to talk to them directly. It's almost always for some auxiliary person who is still a big part of the story and can really enhance a lot of reporting very well.

Megan Fernandez: 20:02

So is it a kind of a rule of thumb that you don't remediate, do not walk up to any player of any of any rank, not just Federer, but anybody in the in the player lounge, just kind of a faux pas?

Ben Rothenberg: 20:12

Yeah, I would say so. And generally, generally, it's about, especially players, you're still in the tournament. For example, if you still if you see someone who you know, is was eliminated days ago, and just kind of hanging around, you may be more willing to ask them, hey, you know, you're talking about maybe some time we could talk or figure out some way to arrange something. Yeah. But generally, if it's, if it's a player, you know, they're, you're gonna get an official chance to request them again, after a match that can be, that can be good. Yeah. But you're often down to the whims of the players and the communications people. And and the other thing I'll say on this sort of getting tougher, it's just beginning a lot more no's a lot, a lot fewer yeses. In recent years, this has been kind of the story for a lot of people across the board in the sport, just again, for shredding. Llike I know, I didn't do a ton of tournaments this year, but I did Washington, was my home tournament, and I was still working on the book, but I popped in there for a few days. It's like a mile from where I live the ATP and WTA tournament in Washington. And I put in, I think, like 10 or 11 requests and got two yeses.

Megan Fernandez: 21:12

Really?

Ben Rothenberg: 21:13

So batting like 200. Yeah, a lot of people I couldn't even I don't remember who they were, I couldn't honestly it was it was the ones I remember who said yes, I

Megan Fernandez: 21:19

Yeah. We'll get back to Naomi and the book in a remember more clearly. Talked to was Gael MonfiIs, and Bianca Andreescu. And yeah, just that's that's frustrating that, you know, so many people or are more, I think, wary, or reticent, or whatever it may be or agents or just see that their social media and don't think they need reporters as much. And yeah, I think that I think not only is actually a good example of her with the book about I think Naomi is at her most interesting for sure, when talking, when in an interview situation, or even a press conference situation, compared to her own social media posts, let's say. I think that most of the time even she has made some bold statements on social media and prepared some stuff and revealed some stuff, I think she's still at her most revealing when sort of being guided or directed a bit by an interviewer in some way. And I think she's really flourished in that format. And the book is what it is, because of having had the chance to interview her and having other people had the chance to interview her whether in one on one settings or in press conference settings. little bit. She was really, really interesting case that really one of a kind of athlete has pushed, you know, the mental health issues quite a bit. And you were there front row for it. So definitely talk about that. But I do want to start with where did this all start for you? I mean, you started a blog, and then you went from a blog to the New York Times. How did you do

Ben Rothenberg: 22:46

More or less, yeah, more or less. I skipped a lot of rungs in the ladder for sure. I was, I mean, I did a I was working for not just purely independent working for SB Nation, which was just still around, I think. Yeah, well, actually not sure they've shrunk a lot in the last year or so. But it's basically a network of sports blogs. And I'd written first actually, for one of their hockey books there Philadelphia Flyers blogs, I was a Flyers fan and was a contributing one of their contribute writers to that community that was sort of more of the SB Nation model because it was, you know, Fandoms, it was more tribal and every team would have their own blog, basically, where their fans could come and talk and it was a bit message 40 And blocky combined, but different sort of community oriented. And then I saw they didn't have a tennis one and wanted to write more about tennis and started a tennis blog or actually reanimated an old dormant tennis property they had called the Daily Forehand. And, and then eventually that got merged into they started a new website called SB nation.com, which sort of a homepage for general sports news stories. And I started folded because because my website wasn't tribal, it wasn't coming from any particular loyalty as a general tennis beat, right? Or blogger, essentially, it'd be better if you want to call it that. I I went and just worked for the destination.com. And I got to go to a couple tournaments that I tried to get to. I broke a couple of stories like from interviewing people at World Team Tennis even just trying to get in where I could, like I broke that, like, I'd talk to the Martina Hingis who revealed that Roger Federer asked her to come out of retirement to play mixed doubles at the Olympics. That was like the first like scoop I got as a just sort of from her, me asking and her saying, admitting it, which was unexpected, but sort of lucky. And that made me decide to give up the job. I've been working my day job at the time as being a temp for this really depressing financial firm that worked on foreclosures of bookstores. Largely it was foreclosures in bookstores. I were doing a lot of projects, both there's been a lot of Borders Books are going out of business around this time. It's circa 2011. And yeah, so it was really, really depressing industry.

Megan Fernandez: 24:47

What a dark day job for a writer to have.

Ben Rothenberg: 24:49

I know it was like counter, they call it counter cyclical. It's a it's a business. It was like when things are going bad and like recessions, and all these businesses are closing, that's when their business picks up. So that was dark. But with the US Open series, which is the sort of lead up tournaments to the US Open, coming up, I gave like my one or two weeks notice and, and left as a temp there to go cover tournaments. And anyway at the Cincinnati tournament where I got credentials to go cover freshman Asian, I gained the notice of the woman who was working there for the New York Times the time it was Karen Krause because I was one of the- Serena was there and Serena was very much the be all end all of American tennis beat reporting at this time, and she was in a fairly dour mood. And I was like the first person who was the only person who's like reliably kind of got Serena to like, shake out of her her funk and like answer questions and it's very off the wall kind of questions but she'd been like to a Britney Spears concert in Canada the week before and I was asking her to compare her life to various Britney Spears lyrics or song titles or something and Serena was just sort of baffled but still like but couldn't use any of her normal deflection to get it going. So it kind of was what got her out of the out of her funk and then also that same week, Serena was pulled out of the tournament and I was following you know, sites or whatever to realize that she was pulling out probably because she wanted to go attend the more recent at that time Kim Kardashian wedding, which is happening somewhere else and she sort of denied that but then ended up at the wedding.

Megan Fernandez: 26:16

Or having a foot injury right before, or a I can't believe that Kim Kardashian and Britney toe injury.

Ben Rothenberg: 26:18

Yeah, she just happened to conveniently play one match to secure her US Open seating and then pull out of the tournament in time to go to this wedding and so I no one else in Spears have something to do with your breakthrough. the pressroom I think connected those dots or done that so I asked about this and Serena was clearly sort of a bit shook by this and that was like noticed by a couple of several reporters in the room including the New York Times reporter Karen Krass, it was great and I asked her as I was sort of leaving or she was leaving the Terminator something like hey, you know someone's coming up like if you guys need help anywhere in New York Times and she was she very generously like yeah put me in touch with her or editor there and they had a blog at the time at the New York Times. The New York Times website they these like sports, blogs verticals there's one for tennis called Straight Sets and so from home actually, I wasn't set on person in person that first year New York Times but I just sort of filed daily previews and match reports and stuff for the for the Straight Sets and being a blogger it was very comfortable sort of it was intimidating doing it for a New York Times audience instead of doing it for SB Nation considerably exponentially higher readership I'm sure but I've been writing my tennis enough at that point that I was actually pretty comfortable doing it. I owe it all to Britney. Yes, I do. And now we know we're both hungry. We have bookshelves next to each other pretty soon so it's very exciting time. Oh, cover nonfiction. Yeah, me and Brittany together again at last.

Megan Fernandez: 27:39

Did you always have the Times in your sights? Was that something like a brass ring for you? Did you ever

Ben Rothenberg: 27:43

I mean, obviously I knew what it was but know... it wasn't something honestly especially their sports stuff. I had not read tons of before this really. I was in tennis I was much more of a John wartime person John Werth I'm who's Indianapolis native as you know, he did this daily mailbag for for Sports Illustrated. And that was really what was my what I read as a, as a, you know, even starting in high school probably reading his his daily mailbag. And that was what kept me up to date on tennis and tennis used to really before Tennis Channel even before the streaming on all courts tennis relates to kind of fade into obscurity between the grand slams, you wouldn't see it on TV Anywhere. So he was very good at keeping the gossip mill rolling in the in the pulse of the sport going and engaging with fans and being really responsive. You know, again, this pre social media time that he saw, I still read the mailbag keep does every week.

Megan Fernandez: 28:39

Do you really?

Ben Rothenberg: 28:39

I still think Oh, of course. Yeah. I still I still think it's great. And and he's, I still learned stuff from it, for sure. Especially while I was off tour, and he's been great to me throughout so yeah, so that was that was back in New York Times No, I was gonna do with New York Times wasn't new that it was a big deal and procedures that my you know, Dad got subscriptions of it. It was in my high school library and stuff. But it was not like a goal. I've been aiming for a long time to write about sports for them. And so I did have to adjust and sort of change my, you know, voice a bit as I started working for the main paper to become a New York Times style writer, which I did not have.

Megan Fernandez: 29:15

What surprised you about the Times once you saw it from the inside? I think a lot of us other journalists and publicists would like a little you know, was it more in was it intimidating? Was it really actually helpful and nurturing? Were they hard driving did come up with your own story ideas.

Ben Rothenberg: 29:32

I got someone to tell me the story ideas. So one of the really great things about both good and bad things about the sort of job I occupied is you know, being a freelancer and doing sort of the sidebar kind of stuff. Like the staffer would usually cover usually cover like the Serena loss or most of the times the big stories and then I would find some sort of more colorful thing on the periphery and tennis. There's a lot of that there's a lot of people in the draw. There's a lot of different stories, you can cover any different given time. And so I'm mostly was doing that. But generally, yeah, I guess I was surprised that largely, I guess how looking back at how unstructured it was, I mean, like, it really it really was you were just sort of moving with it looks very polished and everything, and they do a great job of making it all look very, and they do polish it a lot. But generally it can be you know, it can be the making the sausage can be can be pretty messy at times in terms of changing ideas, changing stories, changing stuff, changing editors, multiple people on there. And things can move either slow or fast at a given time. And so it's pretty dynamic and flexible in that way, I guess. But also, yeah, a lot of times there's you know, it's not always that there's tons of, you know, fail safes or systems or stuff you run through, oftentimes I just read write a story, then often in like the body of an email, which is weird, then people actually will did I don't think people do it much other places, and then send it to an editor, and then they would sort of copy edit it or edit it. And that would be online fairly quickly.

Megan Fernandez: 31:03

So there wasn't a lot of back and forth?

Ben Rothenberg: 31:04

I did not get a lot of feedback for sure. I certainly did not get a lot of most of what I had. And I sometimes asked for feedback, those rare that but I did not do a lot of feedback. No, I did not I sort of have to learn from looking at everything. I don't even think I ever got some like a style guide.

Megan Fernandez: 31:19

You're kidding?

Ben Rothenberg: 31:20

I don't think so. So I would have to kind of learn just from seeing what changes I made to my story repeatedly to learn what to do and what not to do. And you know, that could go for, for formatting things. But there's some weird Times quirks, like we always used to one of the most notable tennis ones, it's like we always, they always called it the United States open like not the US Open on first reference inside to learn to say United States open, which no one calls it every New York Times. But they had a rule in their style guide that basically they didn't call it the US they call it the United States in print. So that included the tournament, which was kind of a weird anachronism, but something I got used to and kind of see what other things are sort of things it would have

Megan Fernandez: 32:01

It was like taking out like, you know, on them. adverbs or like colorful, like you would try some colorful gymnastics with some copy. And they would take that out?

Ben Rothenberg: 32:10

Yeah, I remember hearing or hearing someone say it's like an old times adage, that Times editors can make anyone into a good writer, they can make a bad writer into a good writer, and they can make a great writer into a good writer, like the can sort of II sort of like you sort of get leveled to the sort of general quality. I don't know if that's sure enough, that was someone that at Times veteran staffer told me at some point. And I could sort of understand that their time, certainly, which a lot of times was good. I mean, a lot of times my goofier stuff didn't make it, but I sort of learned how to be somewhat cold. And I'm not the most, you know, flamboyant writer, as you you read my book now, you know, like there's sort of it's, it's not like super show offy stuff, my writing style generally, which I think is an asset, and I think hopefully lends itself well to newspaper writing. But at the same time, my personality I think, and just sort my general, you know, wit, if you want to call it that, I probably would have been a more natural fit for something somewhere like Deadspin during my career than New York Times. So I had to kind of learn how to wear this New York Times, clothing as a writer, sort of uniform as a writer and make it fit that way, which was an effort, but something I got used to for sure definitely became easier as long as I can still do today. I think I still know that know that skill.

Megan Fernandez: 33:24

Oh, absolutely. I agree. Yeah. You think you've shown us what your skill you have, for sure, the tennis writer, and it sounds like he just had to pick it up a lot on your own. And we'll kind of learn on your own. He didn't have a lot of hand holding.

Ben Rothenberg: 33:40

Yeah, largely that's true. I mean, certainly, there were some times were very early on, especially there a couple times where I pitched something and wrote something without checking with them first. And they were like, We don't want this. And this even goes actually to some of your I know you won't talk about with like publicists and stuff. But the New York Times has rules that I had to learn. And usually I knew them and only occasionally had to, like get like stopped or credit. Oh, I've been like once that I can remember where the New York Times does not do has a rule against doing something. I think they still have this rule, I'm pretty sure. I would imagine they do against doing what a lot of brands or companies do, or they offer like an interview with someone, like a spokesperson for something in exchange for mention of that product. Like the one I remember, I can tell you the story. I did an interview briefly that some spokesperson communications rep for Delta had offered me on the eve of Wimbledon with Serena Williams, who was working for those who said with a Delta sponsor at the time, so I did this thing and wrote this article, you know, the q&a with her full report Wimbledon and it was I think pretty good. I don't remember the details of it, but it never ran because they basically I told them at this Delta thing. They're like well, we're not going to do that. We're not going to do this sort of quid pro quo even if they offer us Serena Williams interview. And I should've known. I did the interaction and I felt bad cuz I should have known better than just I should have known to reject it, I guess on the bounce is pretty easy. Like my I think I've barely been working for the Times that long. So I was I didn't realize how rigid maybe that was at the time.

Megan Fernandez: 35:02

Was there any fallout with her team?

Ben Rothenberg: 35:05

Not for me, maybe they got mad at the Delta rep. So I felt bad but didn't didn't come back to me. But I imagine I imagine the you know, account executive kind of wasted Serena Williams just time for 10 minutes or however long she was on the phone with me, probably not thrilled that it didn't and that they're gonna get a New York Times story. Maybe there was foul, and I don't I blocked it. I don't remember that part of it too much. I've never been disappointed and feeling silly that I had, you know, thought I could do this thing and wasted this time and not appreciated how rigid that was, and that goes for a lot of things with your time something specifically, specifically strict conflict of interest rules. Lots of tennis journalists from other smaller outlets and international odds would get like an extreme examples like flown to places like Dubai, to places like China, to places that are a bit off the beaten path where the tournaments want a journalist there, they would often offer the airfare and hotels and put people up because they really wanted the coverage. And for the newspapers or whatever other outlets it was good to because I got to go to the tournament for free. And so it was sort of a useful back scratching thing. But the New York Times never participated in that. And as someone who was working for them, I could never even take those deals to like, work for some other outlet there. So I was very, I was pretty strict about following all that for for Yeah, a lot of years there. Which definitely limited some of the opportunities I could have had, but also, I think kept some degree of separation and in journalistic integrity that overall was valuable in its own way, not always in my bank account for sure, but in its own way.

Megan Fernandez: 36:31

Well, I've always wondered why the New York Times didn't run your Alexander Alexander Zverev story, which for the listeners, Ben broke one of the more serious stories that's ever come out of tennis, especially recently, which was one of the top players was accused by girlfriend credibly of domestic violence. And when he was at the New York tournament on the side of that at the tournament hotel site, which made it a tournament issue, perhaps she didn't file charges. But she did contact or you were able to interview her maybe the only one and then asked her about it, I think many several times in interviews which just doesn't happen a lot in the press tennis press conference. And

Ben Rothenberg: 37:10

I never actually asked her about it in a press conference. So I can basically she posted about it on Instagram, This just in 2020. So it's still during pandemic weirdness, and a lot of remote press stuff, but she posted it on Instagram. And a post was originally in Russian also, too, she was Russian. And it was, you know, not sort of a journalistic report, blah, blah, what happened, it was sort of more of a narrative thing. And and, and so anyway, but she did a couple interviews in Russian first two, and then I found out she was in New Jersey, actually. I didn't know, I thought she was in Russia. But she found out she was in New Jersey. And so I went up to talk to her in 2022 sorry in 2020 rather, October 2020. And it was Halloween, actually the day before Halloween. So like that when I talked to her. I remember I'm getting ready for Halloween party at the house. And I yeah, I it turns of New York Times. So that was yeah, an interesting case where they they did talk to me about the story. And there was a part of it. It wasn't about the sort of quality of the story or the importance of the story. It was more. I don't know how much want to get into it. But it was a more sort of logistical thing for the New York Times. So they didn't want to do and also I want to reading it for Racket. And then for Slate, which are online only outlets, which actually for me, I think was really helpful because they're both online only stories because you didn't have a length consideration. And that was the other thing about the New York Times writing for them is it they had to be, stories had to fit into a fairly rigid length situation of usually being somewhere between 1800 Sorry, excuse me, between being 800 and 1200 words, anything that exceeds that would need like some sort of special permission to stuff. And the two stories I wrote about Olga, yeah. We're I believe around like 3000 words, for the first one. I'm like, 5500 words for

Megan Fernandez: 38:49

So were you worried with the optics of the

Ben Rothenberg: 38:49

No, that wasn't I understand that people want to the second one. Times not running it? Like this, people might infer that meant infer that. But it wasn't it wasn't a concern that I had, at there was something? the time. I was happy with where I had it. And the Times, I knew what the conversation with them had been. I knew that wasn't that they were skeptical of it. Or it was Yeah, I don't want to get into too much of why they didn't openly run it. But yeah, I wasn't I wasn't personally worried about that.

Megan Fernandez: 39:18

Let's well that's you know, I thought you had a lot of courage to cover that story. I'd feel like most tennis journalists, they acknowledge what happened from a very newsy point of view, but no one I feel like maybe in English language, and there's a lot of coverage of tennis that happens in other languages I don't follow. That I don't think they've taken on the story and I felt you had a lot of courage to do that. Did you feel like you were having to summon courage to do?

Ben Rothenberg: 39:45

Yes and no. I mean, I think that I didn't feel like I totally had a choice. That's sort of my own sort of drive as a reporter and journalist and person whatever like once I feel like that I knew that story was out there I felt I felt like any not to me it would have been a dereliction of duty on a pretty basic level to have this person who, you know, was a top five player for a long time or top 10 player who won the gold medal. And he's not necessarily a household name in the US fair, but he's a big deal within tennis and being groomed as a future future superstar, for sure. And I never had any problems with him really. Not anything major before this. And so, but I just felt Yeah, the story, the severity of it was was pretty clear. And, and we felt obligated to do it. And, you know, came obviously with the, it wound up being a long process and, you know, lawyers involved in something that's part of why I'm being slightly hasty about it still, because it's not all. Still not all totally resolved. But, but yeah, it's, I didn't feel like I have much of a choice or something I wanted to want to do.

Megan Fernandez: 40:46

So let's talk about the book. It's titled Naomi Osaka, it's an unauthorized biography, which I think a lot of people hear that and go, lots of means it's sort of not the legitimate or, you know, it's not, you know, I don't know, not very good or something. But I have learned through your talking about the book, that's not the case at all. Why don't you describe what does that mean, not an authorized biography versus not authorized?

Ben Rothenberg: 41:05

Yeah. So it's an interesting thing, that it's sort of this binary that I did not was not super aware of these terms, honestly, before I started writing this book, and but something that I get asked a lot about is that it would fit in column A of authorized or unauthorized. And basically authorized generally means that it was written with the express approval of the subject and their participation, and to some degree, it wasn't always even that much participation, but definitely the approval. And often it's sometimes their idea. A lot of times the subject will find a writer to write an authorized biography of them, because they want it out there. And often, that often usually authorized, I think, always means like some degree of editorial control, they get to decide what's in it and what's not in it. In my book is, and then unauthorized, oftentimes mean something written against the person's wishes, you know, usually from way outside sources, I think, usually people think of like unauthorized biographies of like, people in the British Royal Family or something, just language, like really gossipy stuff, like the secret life kind of stuff. Yeah, that kind of stuff that is maybe more of the association of the world unauthorized. But my book is not that either. I think it's I think it's largely in keeping with the journalism I've been doing for, for a decade, you know, in terms of more now at this point, but you know, like a newspaper story, generally having that kind of degree of talking to the person for a long time, knowing them, talking to people around them. But the editorial control is mine, the you know, it's independently nothing, never got no veto power over anything that's in the book. There's some stuff that's in the book that she, I'm sure we prefer wasn't wasn't in the book, or her family with her wasn't in the book, but also lots of stuff that, but also, it's not at all, you know, the way unauthorized comes off, it's often being like a hit job kind of thing. It's not, I don't think it's that at all, either. Yeah, it's just sort of independent is how I would put it more than authorized or unauthorized.

Megan Fernandez: 42:50

I'm really curious about your writing process. And how they're, here's my favorite lines. I haven't made it all the way through."But by the 1970s, the bouncy lemon lime colored orbs, tennis balls, had joined citrus fruit as Florida's craft as a Florida cash crop." So you're talking about how tennis training huge in Florida, it's where the kind of the nerve center of Jr. Training is in Osaka with their train. So you made this connection between the lemon lime shape and the color the tennis ball and a product, you know, export of Florida. Like does that come to you as you're at the keyboard churning away and like God, I gotta get a certain number of words out the day, or does it come to you as you're walking around and grocery shopping. And you have an epiphany?

Ben Rothenberg: 43:35

It's funny, actually, I had a longer paragraph or in the original version, that there was a little bit of like a flash version of Florida history. I'm kind of fascinated with Florida. My dad actually grew up in Miami Beach. And so the fact that like before it was, you know, in the 50s, when they would say it was just Jews and sand basically. But you know, but it was still but it was still an interesting time. And he was, you know, there and round like Muhammad Ali or sorry, Cassius Clay still was fighting like Sonny Liston there like he was anyway, it was it was interesting, very dynamic. And so it's a fascinating place. But at this version that was like digging into Florida history and how there was all this like land reclamation that happened and how you know, it was all just swamp and then eventually got bought by real estate developers and people go and chasing dreams and how population only really exploded in Florida when air conditioning was invented and became livable. Honestly, most of the air which previously was if you look at like population maps or electoral maps of the US and like the 1960s, even like 60s like Florida is a small population in Alabama and places that you would never think could be possible now. So anyway, so I was sort of thinking I wanted to introduce Florida. And I think Florida is fascinating. I think a lot of great journalism and stuff happens in Florida. They have these Sunshine laws, they call them there which are access to public records and stuff which make for some pretty good reporting historically in Florida, and how much rollback lately.

Megan Fernandez: 44:53

Legacy paper. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Rothenberg: 44:55

And they've been great Miami papers over the over the years too, and just a really colorful place. And anyway, It's where it's also the home of tennis. So I wanted to sort of introduce Florida a bit from...and I ended up cutting all that stuff I just talked about in terms of the land reclamation and air conditioning or what not. Maybe for some other project, but still try to want to sort of introduce Florida, as this place where people go with with dreams and yeah, and tennis and tennis is this this? Yeah, this sort of prospecting business that people open up in Florida and there's all these families and who bring their kids there with hopes will be the next big stars and the sacrifice a lot for it. And yeah, so along with the citrus, which is maybe the more commonly known. Yeah, Florida, cash crop tennis has come up there. So I don't know exactly how that line came into my head. It's been it's been a while, but uh...

Megan Fernandez: 45:40

Do you find yourself writing, like writing into your best stuff, or does it like come to you like these little bits and pieces come to you that you got to somehow write down capture when they happen, and then piece it together, when you're at the computer? Or do you write, you write your muscle into, into being limber and then come up with that good stuff?

Ben Rothenberg: 45:56

I mean, certainly, like there's moments of being limber moments of being very stiff, and it's not consistent in terms of what the output is sitting in front of a Word document at any given time. They haven't this book I was working on for so long, one of the tricky things about it, too, which was that I was always working on all parts of it, you

Megan Fernandez: 46:10

Where can people buy the book? Where can know, for a lot of it wasn't like I did this part and then moved on to the next part. It was like I kind of had damaged the whole scope of her life and career from the beginning, all the way down. Like one of the last interviews I did for the book actually was with someone who knew the Osaka's family when they were in Japan, which is at the very beginning of the book, which you would have already read in the first like, you know, second chapter, like one of one of her father's friends who had come over from Haiti, and followed the family there they find it? was one of the last people I talked to. So it was just sort of, I think, all parts of it largely open at all times for the first year I was working on probably, which was very tricky. And just sort of its I really didn't have a great sensitive

Ben Rothenberg: 46:49

Pretty much anywhere they want to buy books, coming into focus until pretty pretty late. So definitely things I would do differently on another book, or pick a different subject that would lend itself to more organized, organized thought. But yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting, you know, interesting kind of having all these kind of thoughts at once. And I would sometimes think of lines that made sense, you know, or snappy, like the, the thing about the, the orbs of the citrus, whatever and, and go back into that chapter and add a line or two. So I kind of all plates spinning at once, in some ways. it's available. You search for Naomi Osaka, on it most all independent bookstore retailers, I found it had their own websites and have pretty robust online catalogs, your local independent bookstores in any city or town should have that. And will have it available to order already coming in on stock in stock for them. Or if you're just already filling out your Amazon cart and wanna throw it in there, too. I don't personally, as an author, I'm just more happy that you buy it rather. And there's lots of people who support local bookstores and stuff too. And if you want to do that, and you're comfortable doing that, that'd be great. And it's available. Yeah. And hardcover, preorder now and also available as an audiobook and ebook as well.

Megan Fernandez: 47:55

And how do publicists pitch best pitch you stories and what what some of the tips you can give them to to get your attention and get you to you know, open the email even?

Ben Rothenberg: 48:04

Yeah, when you asked about that, before we started, I was I was interested in everything about that. And I was thinking, honestly, 95% plus of the pitches I get, I barely read and are not relative just not relevant to me. I had a pretty specific beat that I covered professional tennis, right. Which is which is the specific thing.

Megan Fernandez: 48:24

I thought you meant a beat within tennis. No,

Ben Rothenberg: 48:26

I was just saying I cover professional

Megan Fernandez: 48:26

What's the best way for publicists listening to the beat is just tennis. tennis. Even just that and even that, like even if I get so I get lots of I got put on lots of PR lists. For like New York, for example, there was a New York Times so lots of like local New York event PR lists put me on there and those are just not relevant to my life. I don't cover that. I even on a more close but off, I get other general sports stuff that I almost always don't cover. And then even sometimes I would get stuff from like recreational tennis like, hey, we designed a new bag for picking up balls on the court. Like I don't even cover I don't cover that either. Like that's not I cover the tour and the professionals and who's winning and losing and those people and so the main thing is almost all the best pitches I get from people I already know generally or unless it's like it's different. There's like a source wants to talk about some something they want me like investigators and covering some sort of potentially scandalous thing and that's different than usually what a PR person does. But yeah, generally it's the best pitches are from people I already know in some way. And I'm happy to meet people too you know, generally if if there's someone who's based local or at a tournament they want to say hi and you know strick up a conversation and get you know, obviously get pitched over like text messages and stuff. I'm personally fine with that. this if they want to get in touch with you is social media can they reach out to you on social media?

Ben Rothenberg: 49:40

Yeah, you can make that my DMs are open on Twitter and on Instagram too as well and also and also my emails my my Twitter bio, so those are all all fair ways. But my email is because of the lack of quality, quality and the quantity I get so you know, get at peak, you know, coupled even still being relatively dormant on on the world and uncertainty Having a lot of stuff I probably still get a couple dozen PR pitches a day, or press releases. And it can be, again, a lot of it's just really noise. And that can drown out the good stuff. Sometimes.

Megan Fernandez: 50:09

But there's good stuff coming from publicists.

Ben Rothenberg: 50:10

There can be.

Megan Fernandez: 50:11

Or it can really come from I would not have done it without the publicists,

Ben Rothenberg: 50:14

For sure. That can't happen. Although again, and especially for other I was the New York Times too. Times just sort of like, was it's definitely tougher, like I said, because a lot of times, even like Serena Williams interview, under certain circumstances, we can't print the way that the company wants us to. So that can be tough.

Megan Fernandez: 50:29

Regarding Serena, then, you know, pretty high.

Ben Rothenberg: 50:32

Yeah.

Megan Fernandez: 50:33

Ben this has been a real pleasure. I know we both have an important match to go watch.

Ben Rothenberg: 50:37

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Megan Fernandez: 50:40

And yeah, thank you. Yeah, we'll look forward to your next projects.

Ben Rothenberg: 50:45

Thank you very much.

Angela Tuell: 50:48

That's all for this episode of Media in Minutes, a podcast by Communications Redefined. Please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe to our show. We'd love to hear what you think. You can find more at CommunicationsRedefined.com/podcast. I'm your host, Angela Tuell. Talk to you next time.