Undisciplinary
Undisciplinary
Five Years of Undisciplinary!
We celebrate five years of Undisciplinary by reflecting on our journey and the changing academic landscape since our podcast began in July 2020.
• Chris and Jane discuss recent conference experiences, noting the different atmospheres between academic gatherings
• We listen to and react to our original five-minute teaser episode from July 23, 2020
• Reflections on Courtney Hempton's contributions and impact on the podcast's development
• Discussion of how Twitter's transformation has changed how we source topics and connect with others
• Clarification about our independent funding model and thoughts on academic freedom challenges
• Exploration of what it means to be truly "undisciplinary" in our current academic environments
• Consideration of gatekeeping versus maintaining knowledge integrity across disciplines
• Acknowledging the podcast's value as a labor of love that continues to bring meaning
Undisciplinary - a podcast that talks across the boundaries of history, ethics, and the politics of health.
Follow us on Twitter @undisciplinary_ or email questions for "mailbag episodes" undisciplinarypod@gmail.com
Undisciplinary is recorded on the unceded lands of the Wadawurrung peoples of the Kulin Nation in Geelong and the Gadigal peoples of the Eora Nation in Sydney. We pay our respects to Elders, past and present.
Speaker 2:The world's first high-strung plant has been performed.
Speaker 3:Medical history has been made in South Africa.
Speaker 4:Reports of systemic racism in the healthcare system and COVID-19 has made the issue even more urgent, characterised as a pandemic.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Undisciplinary, a podcast where we're talking across the boundaries of history, ethics and the politics of health, co-hosted by Chris Mays and Jane Williams Jane Williams, okay. So welcome to Undisciplinary. It's been a little while since, I think, our last episode.
Speaker 2:We've been a bit busy doing other things.
Speaker 1:Doing the work we're paid to do, doing the work we're paid to do. Yes, and we'll talk about that in a minute, but you were at a conference in I was fish, fish talking about fish, how the fish doing did. Were there actually any fish at the conference? Well, people were eating them, yeah okay, do you want to tell us? And there?
Speaker 2:were slides of diseased fish.
Speaker 1:Right. So this is about fish health, One Health kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, it's about fish health, do you know? So it was in some ways very interesting because it is the conference. It's an aquatic animal conference, not just fish. Chris, I'll have you know, off the pie Keflapods. Is that an octopus? I don't know, and something else. Yeah, I'll have you know. Octopi Cephalopods Is that an octopus? I don't know, and something else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think an octopus is a cephalopod, anyway, I know nothing, but what was really interesting was that the whole thing was in plenary and a third of people were academic researchers, a third of people were government regulators and a third of people were industry. So farmers, basically prawn farmers, and so on. Um, and because I've never worked in an environment where industry has really been embraced, because of for really good reasons, um, it was super interesting to me. It was there was some robust disagreement but it was all really constructive and really respectful and it seemed like a really wonderful model, I suppose, for information sharing.
Speaker 1:Interesting, that's good.
Speaker 2:There you go yeah.
Speaker 1:So I went to the White Stigma Conference at Griffith University on the Gold Coast where I presented the co-authored piece that we did and hopefully we'll have some people on the podcast that I met at that conference and also went to the Australasian Association of Philosophy Conference in Brisbane and also met some interesting people there. I mean I would say I really liked the vibe for the want of a less doody word of the Weight Stigma Conference. It was nice, I think, as I mentioned once when we were talking about this before, it's been a while since I've been to like a fat studies conference when we were talking about this before. It's been a while since I've been to like a fat studies conference and there's just a very good collegial atmosphere non-competitive, supportive, encouraging. There was cheering Jane in the audience.
Speaker 2:Cheering.
Speaker 1:Particularly for, like if someone was presenting their first paper, that sort of stuff very encouraging. Love that for someone who was presenting their first paper, that sort of stuff very encouraging and supportive. And also a good mix of academics, activists, medical practitioners. So there was a sense, I think, of a sort of solidarity and common purpose in trying to push back against a lot of weight stigma and fat phobia in a lot of different areas of life. So that also provided that sort of focus of support. Whereas the philosophy conference there were philosophers doing their thing.
Speaker 2:No cheering.
Speaker 1:There was no cheering Not that I heard, at least but there were some great papers and some good people. So this is also just a I'm assuming it's going to be a brief podcast. It could be an hour later. We're wrapping it up, but this is partly to commemorate, acknowledge, celebrate the five-year anniversary of Undisciplinary, and so, on July, the 23rd 2020, courtney and I released the first teaser episode, and I think I even said teaser like that because I'm about to play it, because it only goes for five minutes and I thought I could play it and we could I don't know have a live reaction to it. I'd be particularly interested in, maybe your, your insights, because I know, jane, you actually don't listen to podcasts, let alone this one. So this.
Speaker 2:No, I listen to other people's podcasts, just just, just not where it involves listening to myself well, you're not in this one, but you probably haven't, yeah no, I listened to the undisciplinaries.
Speaker 1:It didn't feature me, okay um, all right, uh, here we go. Hopefully you can hear the audio.
Speaker 3:Importing texts from other fields tends to be a good way to say new things. But where are these texts coming from? Not from a clear cut discipline, but from an interdisciplinary, slightly undisciplined field, a flow of theory moving across boundaries, the boundaries of disciplines of nature and culture, of theory and politics. Maybe relating to them is a good way to give this text a place in that non-disciplinary fluid space as well.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Undisciplinary, a podcast where we talk across the boundaries of history, ethics and politics of health. We are recording today on the unceded land of the Wadawurrung and Wurundjeri peoples of the Kulin Nation, Geelong and Melbourne. I'm Chris Mayes and I'm joined by my co-host, Courtney Hempton. Welcome.
Speaker 4:Thank you, hello.
Speaker 1:So we're starting this podcast. It's in the season of COVID, when lots of people are starting podcasts. What are we doing this for, apart from sort of public humiliation and ridicule?
Speaker 4:That's a very good question. I mean, I think the idea for this podcast emerged from our general ramblings to each other about the nature of the work that we do and where it fits within the academy and broader, broader discourse that's relevant to the kinds of topics that we're interested in.
Speaker 1:And what are some of those topics?
Speaker 4:So I guess, as introduced, so thinking across history, ethics and politics of health and perhaps coming to that through a bioethical lens and perhaps some of the limitations of that and kind of drawing on um, drawing on other fields or disciplines and texts to to think about these issues in new ways yeah, I think that, uh, the quote at the start from ann mary mole's um book, um the body multiple, I think, talks to some of that, in the way that by bringing in and crossing boundaries from different disciplines, new and perhaps more interesting things can be said.
Speaker 1:Bringing in an anthropologist to her work in the context of a clinic, a vascular clinic can illuminate and reveal things that a vascular surgeon doesn't see. And I think for, yeah, the different work that we do and the work that we're interested in and of our colleagues and the people who we'll be interviewing are often people who are perhaps strangers or interlopers or, you know, transgressing in some respects the boundaries that have already been established. So that's sort of some of what we're trying to do. We want to have some laughs along the way as well, especially because it's such a humorous time.
Speaker 4:Yes, I think, yeah. Well, obviously dealing with some very serious issues, perhaps not wanting to take ourselves too seriously, Definitely not taking ourselves seriously.
Speaker 1:If we were doing that, we wouldn't have a podcast, yeah, and so part of the podcast is also attached to the project that we're working on the history of bioethics in Australia, which is generously supported by the Australian Research Council. So they are indirectly supporting this podcast and we thank them for that, and hopefully they can continue to support the good work that we do. And, yes, they are obviously not accountable for anything that is said that would bring disrepute on their highly reputable name. So what are we going to do? What other things are we going?
Speaker 4:to do so. We're going to feature some interviews that have already taken place, so pre-COVID and COVID times. We'll be featuring some guests, so we'll have some live conversations. We'll be drawing on a range of sources to consider current controversies, so mining Twitter for ideas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everyone being referenced and footnoted, of course. So this has just been a short episode, a bit of a teaser, and we look forward to uploading some full-length episodes for you shortly.
Speaker 4:Yes, you can find Undisciplinary wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can. We look forward to uploading some full-length episodes for you shortly. Yes, you can find Undisciplinary wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can find us on Twitter at Undisciplinary underscore, and our website is Undisciplinaryorg.
Speaker 1:We look forward to being in your ears.
Speaker 4:It's not creepy at all. Okay, goodbye.
Speaker 1:Farewell. Okay, goodbye, farewell.
Speaker 4:All right.
Speaker 1:Any initial reactions or reflections on that. I would just say I think that's a good start. I've stopped spending so much time with the canned laughter. I know those earlier episodes. I did insert a few more sound effects, which I'm not sure whether it was a good idea or not, but it certainly saved me time by not doing them anymore.
Speaker 2:The canned laughter to me sounded like the pots and pans draw when you're like unloading the dishwasher and you're kind of mad because nothing fits and so you're just chucking it all in there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 2:I just want to, you know we've done it before, but I just want to acknowledge Courtney yeah, she's missed.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I know it would be, you know, know great to have her reflections on this uh, whether she would still be involved. I'm not sure, um more just from conversations we'd had uh outside of the podcast, um, but yeah, certainly her insights and her humor and, um, yeah, I think, the direction that she pushed different aspects of the podcast in, I think, as mentioned before, the sort of longer form conversation. I mean, that's something. Looking back at past episodes, they go from shorter to longer and that was partly her doing and then also partly me not editing things down as much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, then also partly me not editing things down, as much, yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:So I guess my other comments are you know, rip twitter. Yeah, that's something that I because, yes, listener, we obviously had sort of thinking about this five years, uh, and you know one of the big things being covered, but then, yeah, I just didn't. In saying twitter, it's like, oh yeah, twitter has really changed a lot, uh, since when we first started is that sad with twitter gone uh, look, I was a fan of twitter.
Speaker 2:I learned a lot and I um sort of got to know some really interesting people um with with similar interests, um. But yeah, I haven't been on Twitter for a long time. I don't know if I'm still if. I still even have an account. I don't remember if I quit or not, but for all intents and purposes I did. Um, yeah, okay, interesting. Much has changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean the Twitter thing. I'm actually now scrolling through Reddit so that was something that we were sort of thinking we would sort of look at what people are asking on Twitter. But because Twitter was at that time less, I would say, anonymous and more, um, interconnected, which was a good thing about it.
Speaker 3:Back back, in the good days it wasn't as simple.
Speaker 1:We usually just found people who are doing interesting stuff, and that's how we sort of got our guests, whereas reddit is interesting because you get these people asking um, crazy things, um yeah um yeah. So you know this reddit user saying can you clone a deceased pregnant woman, keep a sample of her pregnancy and re-inseminate her with the same baby? You know the worst kind of bioethics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, did you read a book by Sebastian Falks called the Seventh Son?
Speaker 1:I did not.
Speaker 2:Same vibes bad books. Not a good book.
Speaker 1:I guess one important thing to clarify, though, when I was listening back to this sort of first introduction, is around the funding model of Undisciplinary, and it said at the start you know this was being funded, or partly funded, by the Australian Research Council. That funding such that it was, I mean it wasn't really being funded by the Australian Research Council only in the extent that both Courtney and my salaries at that time were coming from the Australian Research Council. That stopped, I think, in 2021. And since then this has been a hobby done.
Speaker 2:A labour of love, Christopher.
Speaker 1:A labour of love, with all financial backings and proceedings coming from the Mays Institute, yeah, so, which is both important to clarify, just so people aren't under any misconceptions as to where this money's coming from, the vast sums of money that are used. But also, you know, in Australia at least, there has been some recent I would say chilling suggestions around external groups to monitor universities and university funding, australian Research Council funding. So, particularly thinking of the report that was just released by Gillian Siegel, australia's special envoy to combat anti-Semitism, a report that are dangerous, chilling and troubling, particularly in relation to the very broad definition which and in adopting it. So this definition comes from the Holocaust International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. They created a definition which is they, even the designer of it said that this should be a non-legally binding definition.
Speaker 1:And Siegel and others are wanting to make it a legally binding definition.
Speaker 1:Anyway, now is not the time to get into definitions of anti-Semitism, but basically part of that definition includes criticisms of the State of Israel as being forms of anti-Semitism and that that is making people concerned.
Speaker 1:Because part of the recommendation of this report is that there should be audits on universities and university activities, that there should be a judicial inquiry to look in to make sure all content is in alignment with this particular definition and what the specialvoy sees as important strategies to combat anti-Semitism. And I guess I mean you can jump in and say whatever you like, jane, but I would just say from my research and work on anti-racism strategies, intersectional approach to anti-racism is much more effective than an approach that focuses on one particular group and seeing racism as connected among groups. So the anti-Asian racism that was hugely impactful during COVID and we'll come to that in a minute healthcare workers, those sorts of things we need to sort of. And at universities we need to sort of see anti-racism strategies taking a more intersectional approach that builds coalitions among people rather than dividing them and pitting them against each other.
Speaker 2:I guess so come at the Maze Foundation or Institute. What are we?
Speaker 1:Disciplinary is independently funded yeah.
Speaker 2:Come at us, not the people we work for or the people who fund us. Chris, I agree with everything you've said.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good to know.
Speaker 2:Not like in your life.
Speaker 1:Okay with everything you've said. Well, that's good to know, not like in your life, but, um, okay. So, yeah, I mean the other big thing, I guess in the five years I I mean maybe before we get to covid, because we're going to do a special standalone issue episode on covid um, I guess, yeah, reflecting more on that, um, foundational text, I guess you could say from Anne-Marie Moll about undisciplined thinking and thought. I sort of oscillate a lot on that. You know, still seeing great value in the sort of clashing of different disciplines and bringing them together in different interesting ways is really valuable, and I think we both kind of alluded to that in the conferences that we just went to.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, I'm not sure sort of how I think about that more, because I guess I have another shift that has occurred is, I'm now in the discipline of philosophy at Deakin, which is disciplining me in different ways, some of which I'm not entirely comfortable with. But, um, yeah, just interesting to keep on thinking about what is undisciplinary and what does it mean to be disciplined? Um, and, as a future episode, randa al-dhul-fatah, um scholar from uhquarie University, I think that's where she's at. I mean, she was attempted to be sacked due to her pro-Palestine stance.
Speaker 2:But she has a novel coming out called Discipline, which I think could be interesting to read and discuss yeah, um, I feel entirely without discipline at this point, um, which is kind of a a bit unanchoring, I suppose feel like a bit of a mongrel, but I was. I was interested actually and I wrote down when I was listening back to your teaser, um, that I think it was when Courtney was talking. She used the word strangers and interlopers and transgressors into others, I suppose territory. And I think it is a really difficult thing because I say that I'm without discipline, but then I will read something that is purportedly in my sphere, I guess, and it's done differently or poorly or something like that, and I feel a bit of a sense of outrage. So I guess I can say that I'm without discipline but also, you know, still really comfortable with gatekeeping or something, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think it's about needing to be and this is, I guess, part of that process and that both of us are sort of grasping at. There's gatekeeping and disciplining for the sake of some sense of disciplinary integrity that could be seen as arbitrary.
Speaker 1:And then there's gatekeeping, um, about the integrity of the knowledge produced or the recommendations and those sorts of things yeah, yeah, yeah, true, still got to be good still got to be exactly, and I think that, unfortunately, people do use the disciplinary gatekeeping, or complain about the disciplinary gatekeeping, more as a way to justify their own sloppy research, but that's another matter altogether.
Speaker 2:Another matter for another time, All right. Anything else that's happened in the last five years um your podcast to be going to school now going to prep?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, look, I guess that is something that has happened, but no, I mean, I am um, and you know it's our podcast, even though the.
Speaker 1:Bates Institute is funding it. Yeah, I mean, it's something that still brings me joy I guess Joy might be a strong word Something I like doing, particularly the interviews and discussing things with people, something I'm proud of, particularly the setting it up and doing it with Courtney and then yourself. So it's something that I do enjoy. And, yeah, five years come around quick. So, yeah, who knows I don't, who knows what the future holds? I wasn't going to say that there won't be. It won't be another five years, but who the heck knows? All right, peace out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I can't believe is during COVID we were doing like weekly episodes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We had a lot of time. That was good with COVID, with the time. Yep, yep yeah now I couldn't imagine it. Thank you,