Why Do Some People Never Stop Chasing Food Stories? | Tiffany Eslick

What starts with olives on a kitchen counter becomes a life built around food, travel, stories, and bringing people to the table.

Chef JKP sits down with Tiffany Eslick, content and creative director at Spinneys, food writer, podcaster, and founder of Tiff’s Table.

From climbing onto kitchen counters for olives as a child to leading content across one of the region’s most respected food brands, Tiffany shares a path shaped by risk-taking, reinvention, and an enduring obsession with ingredients, stories, and people.

At its heart, this is a conversation about craft. About writing with depth, building a point of view, trusting unexpected turns, and how food can become both profession and personal language.

WHAT YOU WILL HEAR IN THIS EPISODE

• Tiffany’s childhood in South Africa and the food memories that shaped her palate
• How a path once aimed at law and politics led into publishing, media and storytelling
• Lessons from Switzerland, London and learning through discomfort
• Her years in magazine publishing and building a career in travel and food journalism
• What it was like leading Etihad’s in-flight magazines and writing around the world
• How she approaches travel writing, pitching stories and finding original angles
• Why hiring people better than you can change everything as a leader
• The thinking behind Spinneys’ content ecosystem, from magazine to social to storytelling
• Why she went to Ballymaloe Cookery School and what it changed in her relationship with food
• The story behind Tiff’s Table, supper clubs, and her dream of a future culinary retreat in Greece

CHAPTERS

00:00 Childhood food memories and growing up in South Africa
08:00 Switzerland, risk taking and finding a creative path
18:00 London, publishing and early career lessons
33:00 Travel writing, Etihad and building a global editorial career
52:00 Writing craft, pitching ideas and storytelling structure
01:14:00 Spinneys, content leadership and building Nourish magazine
01:28:00 Ballymaloe and returning to school for food
01:40:00 Tiff’s Table, supper clubs and cooking as community
01:53:00 The future of food media, print and long form storytelling
02:28:00 Quick fire round and advice for aspiring writers

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

That's right. The podcast is now on YouTube. So you can watch all of the interviews at your leisure. At the same time, your contribution to the show by hitting that subscribe button makes a monumental difference to the show, as we can keep inviting the guests you love and keep having the conversations that no one else is having. The only thing that I ask is that you share the show. Welcome to the Chef JKP podcast with me, James Knight Pacheco. Culinary brothers and sisters, foodie disciples. This is the place where you will find your solace. A place of worship for all things that combine us together. The common thread that brings us around the table. Food and memories. Wherever you are in the world, whatever you're doing, I ask that you sit back and listen and perhaps take away a few morsels of advice. There will be laughter, we're gonna get serious. Above all, lessons for life. You're listening to the Chef JKP podcast, and this is what you can expect on today's show. Can you tell me your funniest kitchen incident or restaurant incident? I was a waitress.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

I was carrying a tray of Bloody Marys, and I tripped and I spilt it on this woman who was completely decked out in the white. And she was so graceful about it and just laughed it off and sat there. I'm a really messy cook. I create chaos. At Bally Malou, one of the teachers pamed. She screamed across the kitchen and she was like, Tephany, you are a brilliant cook, but you make a brilliant mess.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

How are you capturing all of these moments to then write about it?

SPEAKER_04 1:48

So in the beginning, I thought that I needed to write every single day. And then I would stress out and I would go back to the hotel and it would be like midnight and I'd be like, I have to write everything from today. And then I learned, like, where's the magic in that?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

What advice would you give to budding food and travel writers? I would say Hello my friends, and a very warm welcome back to the Chef JKP podcast. How are we all? What's been happening? You know that I'm always gonna ask, how's everything going at work, at home, your creative space, where are you listening or watching from? I want to know that actually. Are you having a sneaky listen at work or in the gym or some of you driving to work? Let me know. I want to know what's going on. What's the gossip, please? At the same time, I have to say, what am I doing? I'm doing my best. That's all I can say in the ever-changing spectrum of hospitality. Before we dive in, if you haven't already, please make sure you hit that all-important subscribe button on YouTube or press follow wherever you get your podcast. Why? Well, because it helps us to grow the show in every way possible, and we can keep on bringing you the most fascinating conversations with the most inspirational guests. That's all we'll ever ask. Well, on today's show, we have someone who has spent years documenting the world of culinary, not just in the Middle East, but everywhere. Tiffany Eslik is the content director at Spinnies. And you'll be familiar with the magazine, and it's absolutely amazing. She tells stories not just about chefs but also producers, restaurants in the region, as well as all of the amazing work she does. She also has a fantastic podcast with fellow journalist Davina DiVecca. Food journalism plays a huge role in shaping the way we understand and experience dining. Writers like Tiffany help to capture stories behind the plates. The chefs and the farmers. Let's be honest, sometimes they also have a super tough job of eating and tasting their way through the world with produce and restaurants. It can be a very, very difficult job. No joke. Well, today we're going to talk about food, of course, culinary, journalism, podcasting, and so many other amazing things. Listen up for a story about a certain cookery school. Time to rock and roll. Just before we begin, here is a small message from this week's guest.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Hi, I'm Tiffany Eslick, the creative and content director at Spinneese. If you like the podcast, be sure to follow, share, and subscribe.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Tiffany, a very warm welcome to the show. Now, can you please tell me your first or favorite childhood food memory?

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Absolutely. I have I have many. Some I think are influenced by photographs that we have from when I'm because I was like, can I really remember that from three years old?

SPEAKER_04 5:09

But I used to remember climbing up onto the kitchen counter, um, about three, three and a half. Don't know how I got up there. Um, because my mom used to have huge jars of calamata olives. Oh. And I used to love to eat like fistfuls at that age. So my parents were really kind of experimental with me. I think like they took me everywhere. I tried all sorts of things. Like they wanted me to, you know, be excited by food and not be afraid of everything. And I think maybe I was also just born loving food. So, yes, I remember that. Um, and then I remember I used to love going to my grandparents' house, and strangely, I used to love jelly and custard, and my grandmother used to make that, and it was such a basic thing, and I won't eat it anywhere else. Um, but I loved that. And then another crazy one that I have never forgotten. So I was five and we were in the Seychelles, and we were at a restaurant, and there was fruit bat hanging in a cage, and fruit bat is a delicacy in the Seychelles, and I was intrigued and I wanted to eat it, and so my parents ordered it for me. Um and I had fruit bat curry at five, and then I drew it because my mom used to make me keep like these little travel journals when we traveled. Um, and so I drew it and I wrote, and whatever I could write at five, um, about this, and I've I've never forgotten. Um it's amazing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, yeah. So, number one, uh, olives at the age of three. Yeah, I think, because also your palate must have been, you know, started to get honed in quite early on. Absolutely, yeah. Right? And then as a five-year-old, to want to eat the fruit bats is quite interesting.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

I was always very curious and adventurous. Um, actually, something my mum read out at my 21st birthday was like my school report from kindergarten, and it said, you know, let's like playtime, Tiffany's friendly, whatever. And then it came to meal time, and it was like Tiffany has a great appetite and is not afraid to ask for more. So I've always I've loved food, I've yeah, I've loved eating, and I've loved trying new things, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

So with the family, how big was is the family?

SPEAKER_04 7:05

So super small. So it's my parents and my brother, um, he's six years younger than me. He was a fussy eater. Right. So um they got the total opposite with him. Uh but he's changed now. Um, yeah, and so and my mom is a really great cook. So that's I think where I learned to love cooking. And my love, I used to read cookery books with her in bed from when I was like four, you know, and page through these huge books about France and Italy, and she cooked a lot of interesting food. So um she had a really good Persian friend, so we'd either be at their house or she'd be cooking with um Persian food, Moroccan food, she's obsessed with Morocco. Um, she also taught people how to cook. Um, when she was pregnant with my brother, she just took some time off from lecturing. Um, and so we had lots of people always in our house learning how to cook. Uh so yeah, I think that's it's it's her that I owe this where this real love for food started.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

So, for people who don't know, where in the world are you from?

SPEAKER_04 7:57

So I'm from South Africa. I was born on the East Coast, um, so in a tiny town called Peter Maritzburg. Most people will know Durban. Um, and so I lived there for 18 years. Um, and I think I what I liked about that was it's the tropical side of South Africa. So we've got like all the bananas and the lychees, and then a huge population from India living there. So I grew up eating a lot of curry and and all sorts of other Indian uh dishes, and so that was varied in itself. Um, you know, South Africa is so diverse, and we we don't have a specific cuisine, like when everyone asks me that, like yeah, and also my backstory is that I have like Scottish, Irish, British, French, German, Dutch, all from different grandparents.

SPEAKER_06 8:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

So we also didn't grow up eating one specific thing, maybe some strong British influence, I would say, but also all these other things. So yeah, that was Durban. Then we moved to Franch. Um, so when I was studying um in the Cape, um, so and so Franchuk has been home for the last 20, however many years, I don't want to give my age away. Um and uh but I yeah, so I was there and then I lived in England, um, and I lived in well I first lived in Switzerland, then England, so I've also moved around quite. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

So if we if we go back to sort of when you when you're let's say 10 to 15 years old and you're having sort of family meals, what was the traditional, you know, was it a weekend thing, the family meals, and and what types of meals were they?

SPEAKER_04 9:21

Yeah, so lots of outdoor entertaining. Um, my mum and my dad uh loved entertaining and still do. So barbecues or salads and then like sort of lots of large sharing platters. It's quite typical of South African get togethers where everyone brings things or the host just makes a bunch of really great, sort of abundant dishes that you can share. Um, I always used to end up making salads, so Greek salad was like my favorite thing to do. Um, and then yeah, just like really wholesome ingredients, um, always the best sort of quality ingredients, uh, free range, organic. Um yeah, nothing, nothing molecular, you know, anything like that. I think South Africa has carved out its own sort of creative, very creative cuisine. We didn't have uh big brands for a long time. I think we got McDonald's in like 1999. So restaurants were all very homegrown. Um, and I think that's also influenced our style of cooking, uh like eating at home, outside, sharing, very relaxed, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Because I was gonna say, I mean, Franchuk is also sort of gourmet capital, and we'll get about onto that later. But but I really want to understand, furthermore, as in that sort of family culture sharing style, because some people may not know what what South African food is all about, but certainly when I've been there, yeah, it's abundant. Yeah, number one. Number two, the the food from the land is absolutely delicious.

SPEAKER_05 10:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

And I don't think many people know about that. But at that time, were you aware as to how incredible everything was when it came to taste and things like this?

SPEAKER_04 10:57

I'm not sure. I th I was aware when I went to friends' homes and they were not having the same food that we had. And I would be like, okay, my mom definitely knows what she's doing, and and I definitely have an interest and a love for food, and what I'm eating is far more exciting. I also used to love eating the junk at their house, you know, like I was never allowed cheese spread, for example, or like squeezy drinks, and so I'd love to have that in people's homes. Uh but I while I was interested in food, I I I don't think I was fully aware and how lucky we were, you know, um, for these amazing ingredients that we have. You know, the best seafood is coming from the coast, you've got all this free-range beef, you know, eggs are fantastic, vegetables abundant, excellent quality. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

And during your sort of high school time uh and onto college, was a food something that you thought you were gonna get into, or did you have a sort of different educational path?

SPEAKER_04 11:55

So I was set on becoming either a lawyer or president. Right. Yeah, so I for a long time I was interested in going to do law, politics and economics, maybe international relations, um, following in my dad's footsteps, he's a lawyer. So that was the path. Um, but then I always had this creative side to me. And I like I did art for school for like the equivalent of A levels, and it's called Matric. Um I I love languages, so I did French for A levels as well. And so I I had this side for that I always wondered. You know, I actually have a journal that I was looking at when I was home at Christmas time, and it I'd written down a bunch of things in like grade 10 of things I might also be interested in. And Chef is there, but and then I've sort of like bypassed that and then I've done other things. So yeah, so no, I was dead set on becoming a lawyer or a polit a politician.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

And was that pushed from from your father or was that came from yourself?

SPEAKER_04 12:48

That was from me. Um, I have a very I think I might have been made a good lawyer as well, but I've just it interested me, you know. Um, and so but then what I did was I took a year off after school. So I was quite young for my year compared to my friends. I was about a year younger, so I couldn't decide. I'd got into all the universities that I wanted to, um, all the courses that I wanted. And then I was like, no, actually, so I went to Switzerland and I went to school there for a year, um, all in French and did like the international baccalaureate when I was there to try and help me decide what I wanted to do. And then in the end, it I decided to go media and communications. So um, and then I thought with that, I was like, I'm gonna go into advertising. So I'm really conceptual, I love all of this. So that's what I tried to do. And then straight after the studying, I went to live in London for two years because I also wanted to travel, and so and I needed a bit of I I like to take breaks to think about things. So I was there, but I was temping, I was working for a company called Adeco at this company called Bulldog Communications, and which became cable and wireless and then Vodafone. Right, yeah, you know, and I was but I was like, what are you doing? Like you you have all these talents, you're not working in what you want to do. You you're here to travel around Europe and live in London and have that experience. But then I so then I decided to move home uh two years later. And then I started working in advertising. So I was at Ogilvie and BBDO. Um, and I actually realized pretty quickly that what I had in my mind for advertising wasn't necessarily what I would be doing every day. You end up doing like adverts for insurance companies, you know, they were so boring, and there isn't that like scope from like the can awards and like all these other the luries that we have in South Africa. That's all kind of pro bono work in the beginning, and so yeah, so I very quickly, and it was late nights and like I just didn't suit me. Um so then I moved into publishing because I also liked, you know, I liked writing um and magazines had always interested me. So I applied for a job as an art director um at Media24, which is the biggest media house in Africa, and I got in there and I loved it, and I just grew really, really quickly. Um and so I became creative director quite quickly.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

I want to talk about that in a second. But if I take you back to Switzerland first, when you went there, obviously I'm not sure if it was how much of a culture shock was it compared to South Africa?

SPEAKER_04 15:05

Huge, huge. So, I mean, first of all, so I was at a very strict or girl school in South Africa like my whole life. I went to Switzerland to this co-ed school where kids were smoking weed on the grass. Nice, yeah, I can't say that. No, no, no, but yeah, you know, nobody stood up for the teacher when they she walked. I remember the first day like standing up and everybody just looked at me and thought, like, what are you doing? It was a really good school, but it was so different, and the culture was completely different. Um, I was actually miserable for the first month. I used to, in my diary, I used to mark it off like I was in jail, you know, like slap and mark off week by week. I mean, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

And how was the weather?

SPEAKER_04 15:43

Weather was freezing. Um, I like cold weather, so it's even more extreme, let's see. So it was too much on, you know, like moving. I moved there in the January.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

How old were you?

SPEAKER_04 15:52

I was 17.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

So it was the first time away from home.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

First time away from home for like, yeah, for a long time for a year, you know. And at that stage, there wasn't WhatsApp and Zoom and everything. There was, was there Skype? I don't think there's Skype. No, I don't even think there was Skype. Um I yeah, because I phoned my parents once a week.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

No, but that's an incredibly young age to go from that side of the world to then go to Europe. Yes, yeah, be dropped off there. You're not with friends or family.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

You have to learn something completely different. Yeah, and food is different.

SPEAKER_04 16:23

Totally different. And everything was in French. And like, look, I had I could read and write French, I could speak it, but I wasn't fluent. You know, you know I'd never lived in a French-speaking country.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

But there's one that's the thing, right? Yeah. It's one way you you want you sort of, you know, when you study at school, you're like, yeah, okay, I can get by. No, not until you're dropped into that culture. Do you think okay?

SPEAKER_04 16:43

No, it was crazy. I I remember just thinking, what have I done? You know. Okay. And but then I stuck it out. Like my my dad was like, come home. My mum was like, stick it out.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

And so that's generally the advice. She was like, you can do this as character building. Nice. Oh, yes, but that old chest, not yet.

SPEAKER_04 16:59

I I really feel like I could have enough character building experiences in my life. But I, you know, I I started to love it. And then I I really became obsessed with cheese and chocolate. I never used to eat chocolate before moving to Switzerland. I was more of a like crisp school or didn't really eat a lot of junk food. And maybe it was the whole emo eating and being homesick, but I used to devour bars of like lint and all sorts of other kinds of chocolate while I was there. Um, and I still remember these things called Ragusa from the train station that I used to pick up on the way home. Uh actually, that was the first day when I had to go to school. I remember phoning my mom and saying, I have to take a bus and a train, and I don't know how to do this because we don't do that in South Africa. Like my parents dropped me everywhere, you know. And then I remember thinking after the first day, like, what are you so scared about? You know, but yeah, food-wise, uh, I thought it's quite simple there.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Right. Um was it tasty?

SPEAKER_04 17:51

It was tasty. It was not, it was never like a lot of like interesting flavors, but the host family that I lived with, the dad was a very good cook. And so sometimes, like on weekends, he would make like a Chinese dish. And it was like a big thing that he'd be doing, Mario. I'm still very close to all of them. Um, and so I used to love his cooking. He was interested in flavors, and they travelled quite a lot. Um, very healthy. So we we uh we did eat a lot of a lot of fish, a lot of salad, um, and then in winter, like I'm trying to remember like all the other things. But yeah, I do remember a lot of very nice river fish. Um, and yeah, and a lot of cheese, which was good, and good bread. Like we'd go to the uh uh bakery up the street to get the bread on the weekend. Um, and that was novel for me. Like we didn't really do that in some.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

That must have been quite nice.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

Yeah, like just walking up, you know, the road a hundred metres and then going to get the bread um or croissance, and yeah, so that I have a lot of good memories of Switzerland now.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

But what was the the sort of when when you was when you were studying at the time, so doing the the IB and then you said something switched in you to go into marketing. But that that was the sort of trigger. But what what was that trigger?

SPEAKER_04 19:02

So I was working on a portfolio to enter the AAA school, um, which is like where you go and you study for three years in market like a speciality sort of marketing communications in Switzerland.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

In South Africa.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

So I'd used during that year as part of the decision-making process was work on this portfolio because you had to submit an amazing creative portfolio, which of course, in my true style, I left into the last kind of six months um of being in Switzerland. Um, and so maybe it was I'm trying to think back now, actually. I haven't thought of this moment for a very long time. I think it was working through that that I so enjoyed the things that I had to submit, and I thought, yes, I can see a way forward here, and this is creative and fun. Yeah, I think that's it.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Um and how then did you get the job in London?

SPEAKER_04 19:53

So that was random. I so I studied, graduated, moved to London. I have a lot of family friends in London, my godmother's there. Um, just quite easy actually from Switzerland to go to London. Oh, no, I went back to South Africa. Oh, yeah, so Switzerland was before I started studying at uni. Yeah. So Switzerland was a year, then I went back to South Africa for three years, then I moved to London.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Okay. And and sorry, so for for South Africa, that was the full degree that you wanted to do within marketing. Yeah, three years.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Yeah. And it I'm I I don't know, I remember being headhunted by TBWA, another ad agency, at graduation, and I thought, am I doing the wrong thing by going to London? But I I actually realized and just saying this to you, that I do take risks. I think that I don't take risks, but I just I decided, no, I want to go to London, I want to do something else now. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna turn them down. Um, and I think it was the right decision. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

So you made the decision to go to really beautiful grey London and uh with the gorge gorgeous weather. Yeah. So tell me about the first few weeks there.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

Well, I was staying with my godmother. Um, she lives in Ascot, it was really lovely. I was being spoiled, so you know, I nice party. Yeah, exactly. So it really wasn't a hard sort of you know intro. Um, my boyfriend who was living there at the time as well, so that helped. He was already had been there for a year.

SPEAKER_07 21:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

Um, so I kind of it wasn't like too much of a stressful move. You know, I had people that I knew and loved and trusted. But I do remember like, you know, having to apply for jobs and thinking at first I was like, I'm gonna go straight into an ad agency and I'm gonna be like this so cool. And then I realized, no, no, London's highly competitive, you know nobody in the industry here. So then I just applied for random jobs and then this adeco thing, um, like a temping agency. I went and they were like, Oh, you've got this communications thing, you're really good. This would be really good at this company. And so I just did it. And then I went again first week, I was like, What have you done? It was all about like telecommunications, and you know, like I was like, What a big one.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

And it was quite big at the time, actually.

SPEAKER_04 21:53

It was huge, yeah. It was, it really was. And I mean, I would say for the first three months, I had no idea what I was doing. I remembered having like my Meetings with BT and like all these other and then going there, not really knowing what I was doing. But I'm I'm quite good at leading a team and winging it. And so that's what I did. And they thought I was good. And I got paid really well. Well, what I thought was good and compared to the RAND, which was really good. Right.

SPEAKER_07 22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

And so I was and I was really there to save money and travel around Europe. You know, save money to travel. Um, and so we would go off on like long weekends, um, whenever I could take leave and and just go around Europe, my boyfriend and that.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

I was gonna say, so that sounds that must have been quite a nice part of the job, but being able to have you know bank holidays, yeah, to go to Italy, Spain, Germany, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 22:36

And it's so close, you know. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Um yeah, super close, and also even I mean, going to Paris was like you know 40 minutes or whatever. Absolutely, you know, yeah, yeah. What was your from the travel within Europe? Yeah, what were the sort of foods, countries, or meals that really stuck with you?

SPEAKER_04 22:54

Ooh. Hmm. Okay, Greece, definitely, because I've always loved Greece. So up there, France for sure. I remember going because it I had been to France while I was living in Switzerland, but I had never been to Paris. So I'd been to like Strasbourg and I'd been to Corsica. Yeah. Um, but I remember being in Paris and just being like, yeah, so like as a 25 year old, 24-year-old, 25, yeah. Um just being blown away. Look, I did some, I was so embarrassed if I think about it. I did some of the really touristy things, like going and eating those touristy frog things, and uh, you know, having yeah, exactly. You know, you look back, you're like, oh my god, I can't believe I did that. Um yeah, and just buying things at the supermarket and sitting at the river in Paris and having a picnic. I remember that, and definitely Italy. We did a three and a half week trip from the south to the north, and that was so cool. I remember being in Cortona um and having this like ragu with rabbits, um, and it was cold and like red wine, and it was just it was divine. Um, and this sort of restaurant in a cave type thing in Cortona, and I'd gone there because I'd seen it on under the Tuscan sun. So I'm a hopeless romantic, so yeah. Um what else? I liked Amsterdam. I didn't I don't remember the food being excellent, but I liked I liked the city. Um Spain, yeah, Spain was was great fun.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Um so you really did a you know, you did as much as you possibly could.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

Yeah, absolutely. Uh Prague, that was cool. The Christmas markets, and I remember all of that food. Um yeah, yeah, we really did. We were super busy.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

And how long did you stay in London for?

SPEAKER_04 24:26

So two years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

And what what was the biggest lesson you had from not just being in London, but also working within that industry?

SPEAKER_04 24:37

I think being open to things that are not on your plan. So I made some of the greatest friends working at what is now Vodafone, like Bulldog. You know I mean we had to answer the phone going, hello Bulldog in the beginning, you know. Um and so to this day, like Mikita, who's now basically heading up Vodafone in the UK, she was she was one of my greatest friends there. And had I not been open and taken a risk to just taking this random job that had nothing to do with what I uh was on my plan, I wouldn't have met her, you know, and all the very interesting people from different walks of life whom I met. Um also what else did I learn from London particularly? I I loved it. I like the weather didn't get to me. I loved like that you could there's always something on, and so I I think that's what I learnt about myself is that I I'm very curious and that I I can keep myself busy and that you can always find something interesting to do, you know. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

But how amazing uh that from you know that first day or first week rather, in Switzerland, you were that girl who was sort of a little bit afraid, didn't know what was going on. Yeah. To then coming into London, knowing exactly what you wanted to do, travelling around Europe, you know, all of these types of things. It's it's quite an amazing contrast. Absolutely when you think about it.

SPEAKER_04 26:00

Yeah, and I think Switzerland definitely gave me that sort of inherent courage as well, because I've I've often thought back to like what you did in Switzerland was amazing. And so of course you can do this and 17, you know, and I mean there's some crazy stories. Like the first family that I was with, they I mean, I don't know if we wanted to they murdered their cat with it. They were like these strange, um, I mean, it sounds crazy and no one would believe me, but they were this very strange religion. Um, they lived in this little village. I don't know, they'd had like four exchange students before. I don't know how they got this, and they didn't believe in sending their cat to the vet to be put down, and the cat was super sick, and the mother killed it with a carving knife. Like, and so I I lived through that, and so I had to move families after a month. So, I mean, I had the first month was hell on earth. Wow, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

So you had to call your mom and be like, uh, this family is weird.

SPEAKER_04 26:51

Yeah, yeah, no, I phone, and then so my dad sorted it out within, like, you know, by the time I got out of school, there was like that whole exchange program there to meet me.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

What a legend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Um, I just he was we were talking about it actually over Christmas this year, and he was like, I still can't believe that you had to go through that.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

But it was crazy, and there were a lot of other things. Like they I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to blame them, but um it was a real culture shock. And then the second family was wonderful. Right. Yeah, they and they were like, please don't think this is what Swiss families are like, you know, like we are normal.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

When you're talking of the dinner table, well, this family enjoy your turkey.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Oh my gosh, no, it was crazy. It yeah, uh, I am a survivor.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

No, but the funny thing is, Tiff, is that it's as crazy as it sounds at that time, it's unfortunately those types of experiences are what shape you and are the ones that make you you know stronger as a person. Yeah, but what's really wonderful is that you you grow from it and then you understand actually the world is a super beautiful, cool place.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

So after two years in London, what happened next?

SPEAKER_04 27:57

So I was I moved back to Cape Town, um, got in and started working for Ogil V. Uh yeah, Ogil V first, then BBDO, and then very quickly, I'd say six months or eight months after doing that, I moved into publishing at Meteor 24. And then I just worked like a demon. Um, it was cool. I was working on first a huge magazine. We sold like 300,000 magazines a week, and it was within the emerging yeah, a week. It was when like, you know, magazines were at their golden time. I was also working in the emerging markets division, so I was learning so much about a different market in South Africa. Um, so it was called Move Magazine, and it was yeah, so weekly, and it was helping empower black women. And it was in Cape Town, you're gonna be able to do that. In Cape Town. So they had a huge office in Cape Town as well as in Joburg. And then I got transferred to Johannesburg a year after being in Cape Town. Um, I got the creative director role, and I got three magazines underneath me. So the three biggest selling magazines in that market that were focusing on the emerging market. And it was, you know, I was cool. We had like one that was really like a high sort of, if you think like Emirates Woman or Harper's Bazaar, it was um there was a lot of high fashion. So I was doing fashion shoots. Um, and then I was also doing shoots with loads of TV celebrities from South Africa who had no idea who they were, you know. Um, and uh meeting them, it was it was great. Um and yeah, I was always doing something cool. Like um so but Joburg is a a crazy place to live. Um and so after how long was I there? I was there until 2011, until I moved to Dubai. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

So if we talk about that job with Media24, yeah, during that time, and I'm talking about the total period of that time, was also food and travel in the picture, as in, you know, hosting different people, having to go to nicer restaurants, things like that.

SPEAKER_04 29:46

Yeah, absolutely. So by the stage, uh my mum was living in French hook, so I would on weekends, so like this was, yeah, even while I was studying, she was in French hook, so I would be there on the weekends, I would be shopping the fridge, as my brother would say, to take things back to my apartment, going out to nice restaurants with her, um, you know, and our friends. Um, and then yeah, I've I've always loved having people over. So like I would and I would cook, I thought I was in a cooking club with friends, my book club we used to cook. Um, I'd always be out. Um, and then specifically in Joba, because there's nothing else to do other than hang out with friends and eat at restaurants. You know, in Cape Town, you can be on the beach, up the mountain, whatever. I did a lot of hosting at my apartment. Um and I had a really good friend. Well, I do have a good friend called Marky, and she used to love cooking. So we'd start to cook on weekends together. Uh, not enough, but we, you know, we did a good amount. Um, and then I also did a travel writing course while I was working because I felt this need to do, I like I've always traveled, I love it, I wanted to write about it. So I did it. Um, and I also did a postgrad in business while I was in Joburg through my company because they were pushing me to become a publisher.

SPEAKER_07 31:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

Um, and so I was then set on doing that and then doing an MBA. So I had that side while I was doing the travel writing because I was like, actually, I also wanted to be an editor of a travel magazine. So I there's always this side that like plays the sort of logical business numbers side.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Yeah, and you had the experience of traveling in Europe.

SPEAKER_04 31:20

Exactly, yeah. And I traveled while I was back in South Africa, like I went to Indonesia, I went to Zanzibar, you know, like you always had the bug anyway. Oh, totally. I've had the bug since I was probably when I cannot remember from my parents, you know, I loved it. So then I did the course, I started freelance writing for free um within the stable um of our company because we had so many magazines. And then I started to get commissioned. Um, and so I started to write for one of the magazines that I was creative director of, um, called True Love Magazine. And I remember going to the Seychelles on a trip for that, which was super cool. Um, and that's actually where I met the person who now does the food and photography for Swinny's magazine.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

Yeah, she was super young, and we were both on this press trip. And I remember thinking, if I ever launch a food magazine, I'm gonna hire you. Because what she was doing was just she was so interested in everything. I remember her being down on the beach, lying on the sand to get the perfect shots of like a coconut, and I just thought, you are great. Um, and I knew she was very talented with cooking as well. Um, so yeah, so then so that then that sort of travel bug, uh travel writer editor bug hit me hard.

SPEAKER_07 32:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

And then I was finding it really difficult to move into becoming an editor because I was like a creative director and they were they put you in boxes there. You know, it's like, no, you're the art side of things, and yes, you do this freelance writing for fun, but you know, you don't have all these years of editor behind you. And I was like, no, this is rubbish. Like I'm writing these amazing articles, I'm basically working, putting the whole magazine together, like I'm gonna do this. So that is why I ended up applying for a job in Dubai.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Okay, yeah. So just before we get to Dubai, yeah, I also want to talk a little bit about Franshuk. Yes, because for people so I'm gonna put you a little bit on the spot. Yeah. For people who don't know or have never been to Franshuk, how would you describe it?

SPEAKER_04 33:12

Definitely a bubble. Um, it's a picture perfect or postcard perfect. You know, you drive in, you've got these incredible mountains, you're going down this one street with that you've passed a couple of really old uh vineyards and and wine farms. Um, you go into this town, and it's just like this little village town. Everything is white, um, like all the buildings, there's beautiful cafes, beautiful restaurants, um, really stunning homes, and these exquisite mountains. And it is for a long time, has been one of the food centers of South Africa. I mean, my parents used to go there on holiday before I was born, um, and my mom often said, Oh, I'd love to live here one day. And it's so strange that it happened that it worked out, you know. Um, so but yeah, and it's it's kind of always maintained its its sort of leading position, I think. Um it has a famous restaurant called Le Cartier Française. So that I'd say put it on the map. Um, it was they were the first ones doing like interesting tasting menus and and fine dining. Um obviously all the fantastic wine, you know. Um and then it's small, it is small, and so I I do and it's charming. I do think that you go there while you're on holiday and you're like, oh my gosh, this is magic. It's it also can sort of looks like a bit of Provence, and you know, and everything's got all these French names. Um but it's tiny, and so um, yeah, I think you've got to think about that. It's I think if you're older, it's a nice place to live. Um, or if you're maybe in the in in the in the wine industry, or or if you're passionate about like being in a restaurant, but it's I don't want to say it's boring, but it's you know, it's um but the niche is basically food and wine. Yeah, absolutely. And and it's beautiful, but it's um yeah, it it's small.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

And so So when is the the the sort of peak season for tourists to be there, would you say?

SPEAKER_04 35:17

So well, I mean, over Christmas is a nightmare, but the biggest season for the Cape is March and April. That's when the weather is the best, and so that's really good to go. Um it's you kind of get those perfect days because a big thing about the Cape, and and Franchick included in this, is you go there and you have a perfect day and you think this is the most magical place on earth, and most of the time there's southeaster winds, you know, in winter it rains like non-stop. Um it's beautiful, and I don't want to pay, I mean, I'm I'm I love South Africa, but it's yeah, it can charm you, but it's also quite a it's quite a hectic place to live, weather wise, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Because the reason I'm asking is because um you know I've been there and it blew my mind.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Uh and it is it is small, it is super beautiful, Provence, and you have all these incredible wine tours and food tours and the most phenomenal produce imaginable. Yeah, but I the I the reason I'm asking is because as a local, yeah, it's a very different sort of experience, yeah. To to somebody who's a who's a tourist, yeah. Um, nevertheless, yeah, it hasn't put me off because you know it's it's such a beautiful place, and I think it's one of these centers of the world for true gastronomy. Oh, absolutely. And the people there, um, the growers, the farmers, everybody involved is also super passionate.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you yeah, you are meeting these, and it's a wonderful community, you know. Um, I have since bought a house on the West Coast, which is now my new obsession, which you need to come to because I think that's the next gastronomic area for growth. Um, there's a lot of stuff being done in the Swatland with wines. Um there I I was a restaurant called Wolfgart by this guy, Kurbus. Um there's lots of cool new things opening, and it's really it's maybe where Franchuk was like 40, 50, 60 years ago. It's so undeveloped, but I can see it's growing and yeah, exciting, and it's like where all the amazing seafood is coming from, like all our oysters and our mussels and uh palm and abalone. Um, and you know, yeah, so that is that is an area that uh keep your keep a lookout for. Nice. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Okay, so then the big move to the Middle East.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Had you heard of Dubai? Were you aware? Had you been before it was the first time?

SPEAKER_04 37:38

So I'd never been. I I was aware of it. I had thought about it when I was living in London, like I'd looked at uh maybe coming here to Dubai, and then I kind of put it aside. Um, and then a friend of mine was working at ITP um here, and we had studied together, so and I'd always kept in touch with him. Yeah, nice. Yeah, and then it was another rash, like quick, quick move, actually. Um, I broke up with my boyfriend and I was like, I'm going to move countries. Um, and so I applied for this job. Another risk. Another risk, yeah. Um, and I I was I was kind of like, I don't want to become a publisher. I I want to do this editing, I want to try that. And so yeah, I just sort of was set on that. So I applied for this random job. It sounded cool. Um, and I got a call like two days, I think, after I'd applied for the job. Um and so and then they were like, yeah, this is cool. You know, do you want to come? This is cool. Yeah. And so I was it was like the first weirdest interview, you know, from what I remember. Um, but nice. But I was just like, okay, is this how this works?

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Zoom phone, how was it?

SPEAKER_04 38:39

Uh it was phone. Right. Yeah, I don't remember seeing, or could have been Skype. I don't remember seeing the person's face. It must have been phone call.

SPEAKER_07 38:45

Okay, very good.

SPEAKER_04 38:46

Um, and then I moved, I think within three and a half weeks, I packed up my live. Yeah, yeah. So it was super, super quick. I moved here on the 11th of December 2011. And then again, I had that moment. I got here and I was like, what have I done? Like, this is because I started doing it was so it was editor of um a whole bunch of like trade publications. It was in the customer division, and so I was doing things for like Gulf Food and Um, oh my god, all these like trade fairs. What you know, like uh Automech and Beauty World.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

And so something that you'd never really done before.

SPEAKER_04 39:21

I'd never done before. Um, the Gulf Food thing interested me slightly, but it was it was hectic, it was crazy deadlines. I was in a small team, a nice, you know, it was me and then um some freelancers, you know. And I just it was very different to what I had been doing, and I had carved a really nice niche for myself in South Africa. And but then I just I said to myself, why did you move here? You moved for growth, you moved for new things, but it was so far away, even though I was an editor, it was so far away from like a travel editor, you know. But I sat next to the Etienne Airways team. Um so they it was the whole team that had the ITP had the account for it.

SPEAKER_08 39:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 39:59

And so I used to hear them being like, okay, next week we're off here. This is what we're doing. And I was like, oh my god, this is torture. So then I started to write for them for free.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

So first of all, you were like, hey guys, I just happened to write. Yeah. How are you?

SPEAKER_04 40:13

Absolutely. And so I knew that like they were right next to me. We were like sort of a joint table type thing. And so I made friends with the editor, I showed her my writing, she was like, great. So I remember going to Bahrain and Oman, and like she gave me all sorts of like regional trips to do, and so and I wrote for them, and then I started writing more and more in my free time while doing my crazy job. And then I actually had said together. Yeah, because it was I was doing it for free, and I was I was going on weekends when I could do trips, you know, so it was I was really juggling a lot. Um, and then I remember saying to myself, okay, I don't actually like Dubai after the first year. I and it's weird because usually I take to a country quite easily. Um well, Switzerland after a month. Yeah, London immediately. Um, but I I just I don't know, something didn't click for me here. Like I was battling to make friends. I think because I was working so hard, I was always in the office, like till late at night, you know, and I wasn't enjoying what I was doing unless it was for Etihad. And then so I remember saying, I'm actually gonna move home or I'm going to do something else, but I'm gonna leave Dubai unless I get the dream job. And then the deputy editor quit from the Etihad Airways titles and they offered me that role. And so it was a step down in terms of like title and salary, but I was like, do it because you get to travel. And they used to travel every month, like it was insane. And so I got that, and then the editorial director quit three months later, and I got her role. I had to apply, but I wow, yeah, so what a step. It was huge, and it was a bit daunting. I remember being really scared and thinking, like, okay, like you know, I I know I can write, I know I can edit, I'm really organized, but can you run like all these magazines? You know, and how many was it? So we had the first in business class magazine called Aspire, we had Etiad in Flight, which is the economy title, we did an annual one for the F1. Um we did the Duty Free magazine every every month, and then we did the uh not um what was it called? Ebox, the entertainment, you know, the in-flight entertainment magazine. So, and it was it was crazy. So you're traveling, you've got a new team. Um I didn't have loads of contacts with writers around the world, but luckily I inherited a bunch of writers. So we worked with like the best writers from around the world, you know, uh her writing for the New York Times, Guardian, FT, National Geographic. Um so that was cool. And I just talk about winging it. I just did it.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Um it was I have to ask because again, so so let's let's put it into context. Yeah, you you know, you came obviously, then then you know you did this sort of crazy golf food and beauty and all of that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Then you managed to get the the sort of dream job as a step in, and a few months later, bang, yeah, the dream job came along. But you also had to manage humans, yeah. And something else that nobody really teaches you is how to manage your time professionally. Yeah because personally at this point it's there is no personal time, not really because you're like pushing, pushing, pushing. If you if you think back to that period, how was the first, let's say, three months of that role having to manage people, having to manage these magazines, the deadlines, all of that?

SPEAKER_04 43:38

It was incredibly stressful, and I doubted myself every second. Um, and I think I doubted myself more than I've ever done in my life. And I was um my mom was an amazing support, you know, she's uh fantastic at words, and so I would send every single article that I wrote to my mom. I would be happy to edit everything. Else, but I I felt this pressure. Like I have to perform, it has to be the very best. And I mean to this day, I still send her my articles just because we've got into this habit. But um, and I really relied on the team that because I the whole team existed that you know when I joined, so I relied on those people. I also quickly learned to just I had a direct relationship with the client at Etihad, and so I just listened to what they wanted, but it was difficult. People and people doubted me within the team. There were definitely people who I know there was something about my age because I was really young, right? And of course, you know, and so you're learning to manage people of different ages, um politics, politics, corporate life, and finding all these writers, and yeah, but I did. I it was very stressful, and this this need to prove something almost, but it was to prove it to myself that I could do this. I wanted it, but I I needed to believe that I could do it.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

So can I ask you during your time of travel when you were traveling, yeah, and let's say you had to go to these beautiful, wonderful places, whether it was to talk about the food or or or the destination, at the same time you also had to edit and manage the other magazines and the other people, right?

SPEAKER_04 45:11

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it was a crazy time. Like uh so quite soon into it, because actually the acting deputy editor wasn't full-time, I got to hire a full-time deputy editor. And so I hired this guy, Jamie Lafferty. He had been a writer on Etihad before the previous editor a few years before that. And he is the most incredible writer, he's the only person I'll let criticize my writing, really. Um, so I hired him. Uh well, and I learned very quickly hire people who are better than you at things so that because then it frees you up and you will learn.

SPEAKER_08 45:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

He was he is incredible. He's gone on to win like travel writer of the year internationally, and like all, you know, he's incredible. So he came, he brought a bunch of contacts, and I am very good at managing the client, hitting the brief. I am I am very creative, I am a good writer, but I'm not the best writer, and that's okay to admit, you know. Um, and so I learned from him, I I and he learned from me, and we've we've often spoken about this. He was like, You were very good at doing the XYZ, and I was good at this, and we were a dream team.

SPEAKER_07 46:16

Right.

SPEAKER_04 46:17

Um, and I, yeah, I'm so glad that I got to have him on my team, you know. Um, I remember, I mean, I'm terrify I'm a procrastinator, and so to write my own thing, like I will prioritize everybody else's articles ahead, I'll edit them, I'll get it done. But to write my article, once he had to lock me in my room, just so that I would stick to the deadlines like you're not coming out until you've written this. Um, so yeah, hiring hiring people who are better than you is the best way forward.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

But but now if you think about it for for yourself, yeah, as an example, what is, and I'm specifically talking about your articles.

SPEAKER_05 46:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

What is the the key thing to do when you are writing? How do you sort of structure an article in order for it to be the you know the best it can be?

SPEAKER_04 47:06

So I learnt always start with the most interesting, exciting, or surprising thing that has happened to you.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Oh, so first, that first paragraph, right?

SPEAKER_04 47:15

So that first hook. So obviously I mean there's loads to writing. Like, are you gonna start like is your article gonna be circular? You know, you is your intro and outro are they gonna tie up together? But always, you know, are you starting with a quote? Probably not, that's not a great idea. Um, are you starting with this shocking, most interesting thing? And so that's I've never forgotten that. That's pretty interesting. And that was Jamie who actually told me that. Um, not on the travel writing course, not beforehand, you know, and so I would always think because you always something amazing is gonna happen to you, or surprising, or shocking, or sad, or whatever. Why, you know, you need to catch your reader's attention really quickly. Why are you gonna bring that in in paragraph seven when you can bring it in the beginning? And so I started to do that. Um reading, obviously, I've always read. Um, just read as many different articles and analyze them as you can to see, like, okay, how did that person set this up? That's how I want to start writing my articles. And so I would mimic sometimes like styles that people had done. So it's my tone, my voice, but then it would mimic the structure. Sure, sure. Um, and so that definitely helps. Um, and write about what you're interested in. I think do more of that because I was having to write a variety of articles. It wasn't only travel, you know. We had interviews with CEOs for the business title, we had history articles, economic articles, all sorts of things. And you were editing this. I was editing all I was writing. I mean, I edited the whole F1 magazine, and I'm not remotely interested in F1. It's weird, I was in a guitar. I remember going to the first event, and I was like, oh, this goes around more than once. Oh no, maybe of ours. But we had a specialist who was passionate, this guy, Stuart from Australia, who's like lives and breathes F1. And so we hired him as like the main writer. So you had the specialist. I mean, Jamie wasn't interested in F1 either, you know, but together we would do that. And so, but I I quickly learned from all these trips that I loved writing about um health and wellness, um, adventure and food. Brilliant. And I started to just do more food naturally. I would like the trips would become about like, I don't know, the 10 best Michelin experiences in London. Or I worked with Australian chefs from Master Chef, um, so Matt Moran, and you know, and I I loved that. And so it excited me. It excited me. And it sort of just naturally evolved that I started doing more of those articles. Um, and that's what I enjoyed. And I thought, well, I'm not a history writer, so let me freelance those out. Um, unless I really have to do it, I'll do it. But yeah, and so I think I was lucky, I was fortunate that I could, you know. Um, it wasn't like I was, yeah, I was essentially getting to choose the flapler and choose all the articles. Um, so I could pick and choose.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

This season of the Chef JKP podcast is brought to you by Valrona, the French chocolate house that's been inspiring chefs and creators for over a century. Valrona isn't just chocolate, it's perfectly crafted from bean to curvature. Every flavour, aroma and texture is shaped with precision, passion and purpose. Whether you're baking, tasting or simply indulging, Valrona's approach is simple. Extraordinary ingredients treated with extraordinary care. Valrona elevates every experience. For more information, head over to Valrona.com forward slash Valrona, Middle East, Africa and India. Now back to the episode. So during that time when you were travelling with the team or so on and so forth, how did you sort of choose those destinations?

SPEAKER_04 50:58

So it was really cool. So we would meet with Etihad every three to six months. Um, we had other meetings as well, but we would meet and plan, like they would be like, these are the destinations we're launching, these are key destinations for us, the rest is open to you anywhere on the Etihad network or within our code share partners as well, because they were going through a time of like signing up loads of code share deals. You can promote these destinations. And so we would hit the the big hitters, and then it would be like, right, I really want to go and discover XYZ in Norway. I'm gonna work on a pitch that's makes sense, that's timely, that's you know, on trend, um, and pitch it. And then I'd have these big pitch meetings with them and give go through all the ideas. They'd be like, yes, yes, yes, no, no, no. But most of the time they just said yes. And then we would plan it. And so it would be either through tourism boards, so I had a lot of relationships with tourism boards, um, hotels, you know, so working strongly with PRs, and then a lot of just on the ground work. So I would ex we'd research like constantly, like, where who can who's the best expert who can teach us this? Let's write to them, say what we're doing, and and get them on and and work with them. So I was basically planning sounds brilliant. Yeah, epic holidays.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

But I have I have a few questions. So, first of all, I want to understand the pitch. Yeah, so when you're pitching to to these to Etihad as an example, how long would the pitch have to be number one? And also, what would you try and target within those pitches in order to land them?

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Okay, so for Etihad, and this would be like I would also tell my writers to pitch to me like this. So there needs to be short. You need to have a hook. Like I'm talking when I say short, no more than four lines. That's it. Yeah, that's it. So, like, why why this destination, what is happening, and a few a couple of lines about what you're going to cover. Wow. That's what worked for us. And because no one has time. It's like if you're pitching a book, that's different. You want to read, you know, some chapters, or you want you, you want a little bit more. You don't need a super long paragraph. You don't have time. I didn't have time. I was getting pictures from freelancers every single day. I want to read it immediately, know the hook. Um you just want to get it. I want to get it. I want to know like I you you are looking for something original. I didn't want and Etia didn't want anything that was kind of expected, you know. So it wouldn't be like you're going to London. They had moments when they needed to push, like, okay, we're going to push London as a destination and we want to push London shopping. But then, you know, it's not just like uh Bist a village or whatever. You know, it's you needed to have an angle. You needed to look at maybe like the oldest shops in London that have continued to this day that started 200 years ago or whatever. Um, it yeah, it was always something like going deep and just going beyond the expected. Okay. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

So so that was so four lines, get the hook. Yeah. Something unexpected and trendy, or something that the readers could potentially take away. Yeah, yeah. So that was number one.

SPEAKER_04 54:03

And to this day, like that's how I want people to pitch to me. That you know, yeah, yeah. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

And then when you when you started looking at the these destinations, what were the the the key three or four things that you had to experience or write about?

SPEAKER_04 54:19

As opposed like me or for Etihad.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

For for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 54:22

For myself, I always wanted something that was I was looking for adventure or something that was yeah, it's totally new. Um I always threw in a food thing. So it would be a cooking class or a walking tour or um going to an interesting shop, you know, like to look at old ingredients. Um that's cool. I'm trying to think back on all the trips. Yeah, a lot, like a lot of nature, like uh that's what I was looking for. Um, and interestingly, I mean, we had access to anything, you know, like people would hear Eti Hat and they would roll out the red carpet. You know, we could stay at any kind of luxury hotel we wanted, but strangely, the destinations that stuck with me were those sort of more less glamorous, um, and and just being out there in nature. So more experiential, more experiential, you know. So like I loved Nepal. I thought that was one of the best trips, you know. Um, I loved being in Norway and watching like a feeding frenzy with whales and seals and all of that kind of thing, and huskies, and uh, you know, I got picked up by Huskies from the airport and taken to my hotel, and that kind of thing was super cool. And um, I didn't necessarily like we wrote a lot about five-star hotels, but there's only so much that you can say about the lobby, the lobby, the entrance, and blah blah blah amenities. Yeah, we'd find creative ways. Like, I remember writing an article about different styles of architecture in the Maldives and working with top architects who are working on these resorts. Um, because I thought that was really interesting, like why someone would go more like if you think of like Gilly Lankan Fushi, like very barefoot or Cineva, you know, like very barefoot luxury at the time, and then you've got something like Cheval Blanc that had launched and the totally different styles. I liked that. I didn't just go and write about like okay, you can just go to the beach and swim. And yeah, I was looking for a you always wanted a better angle, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

And I want to ask also during that time, how then are you? I mean, let's say if you're there for, as an example, five days. Yeah. How are you capturing all of these moments to then write about it? Do you write about it on the same day or do you wait till the trip is over? Do you have notes? How does it work?

SPEAKER_04 56:32

So in the beginning, I thought I thought that I needed to write every single day. So I needed to be taking the notes. So I've I've always been a note taker. So I have a little notebook and I write down all the time what it's about keywords or ex or feelings or you know, that kind of thing. And then I would stress out and I would go back to the hotel and it would be like midnight and be like, I have to write everything from today, and I have to, and then I learned like, where's the magic in that? First of all, you can't possibly structure like a cover story that's six to eight pages long when you're on day two of your trip and you haven't experienced the other four days. Where's that moment of magic that you're gonna start the article with?

SPEAKER_00 57:07

But you're tired and also overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_04 57:09

Overwhelmed, you know, and so I was like, and then I would change the article all the time. And so I was like, this is crazy. Stop doing that. So for what works for me, I know for some people, it works to just write up the notes and have a structure at least. I like to just take all the notes now, and I know that I can will always get something done, and I will type them up and transcribe so you're you're recording interviews, you know, like whenever you're doing um whoever you're meeting, you're taking all your notes, I would take all that information, all my endless photos that I would take as a record as well, and then I sit and I transcribe it, I structure it, and I decide what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

Okay. Um yeah. During that time though, yeah. TIFF you know, the human brain is ridiculous at points. Yeah. And how do you then set time only to write those articles? Because at the same time, you've got your different editors and different writers coming in saying, oh, TIFF TIFF TIFF TIFF. Like so, so where did you do that? Did you really have to lock yourself away, or was it late night working? How how was that for you?

SPEAKER_04 58:12

So late, I mean, I sometimes had to write on the plane on the way back because of deadlines, but that was I tried to make it few and far between. Weekends, I I need silence, I need no one distracting me. So I it was my weekends when I was back, or yeah, late night. I would get home from work and I would write until like midnight. Well um, I luckily am I not a morning person, but I can work until quite late at night, and so I did that, but I don't think it's healthy. Like I had no weekends, you know. I there was but I always sort of justified it that I was having these incredible experiences, and so for a very long time I became this crazy workaholic because that's what I was used to, and that's and that's and I thrive on that kind of energy, you know. I like things to be at the last minute so that I can I I believe that's when my best work comes out. So it's like this very weird relationship that I have with time. Um, but yeah, it's not it it was a lot of my own personal time on weekends.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

So towards the end of that stint, you were you were content director, editorial director, editorial director. Yeah, um were you doing as much travel or or were you only going to to certain places that you liked or or because there must have been so much on your plate work-wise.

SPEAKER_04 59:24

So I was I there were times when I would sit back and like rather freelance things out, but I was traveling at least 10 months of the year, every year. Yeah. Um times in a month we would travel twice, um, like on maybe on a shorter trip, because besides the Etihad trips, we were also being invited on other press trips. And so if it was an Etihad destination, it's not often that we would accept it because we never wanted the same article as someone. But let's say I don't know, like a hotel in Thailand was taking a bunch of people from Dubai, then we might have gone on a couple of those, you know. And so there was also that. Um really interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

So when did you make the big move to spinnies?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:07

Well, okay, so well, it was the basically ITP lost the Etihad contract, and so that's why that came to an end. Um it they gave it to a company in England. So then I stayed on and I and I was, I promise you, it was like talking about grieving processes, like it was it because the carpet was ripped from under my feet, and it's it was the dream job, and it was um oh my gosh, it was upset so upsetting. I mean, at that stage, Jamie had left. Claudia De Brito was working as deputy editor on the Etia titles. Um, and so we were terri we were heartbroken, you know. Anyway, then I was on Condé Nash Traveller for a little while. Um I was doing some coverage there um as deputy editor, and it was a really weird year, 2017. Um, I've never forgotten because I just felt like my I'd let I hadn't let my job define me, but because I was so passionate, I was so passionate about what I did and it was such an incredible job. Um and you had a team. And I had a team and we we loved it, you know, and it was so I've really found 2017 hard. Um then I was the editor of Dinata World Traveller for a while, and then ITP won the Spinese contract, and the MD who I'd worked for and for the Etiet thing called me and said, Look, do you want to do this? Um I know you're passionate about food, we'd love to have you back. And so I went back. And so that was in I started in January 2018.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:28

So if we fast forward now, yeah, you know, uh you are head of content, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

And what does that mean? So, in terms of um is it for for spinnies, is it for the magazine, or is it for everything to do with spinnies from a marketing perspective, how does that work?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:49

Yeah, so um so yeah, in 2020 I went in house at Spinnies and started a team, like like a the way to see it is like a content agency within marketing.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:00

So two people um from my previous team came with me and we started, we went in there to do, so we were doing at the time the magazine social media, and we were working on a previous website that was more of a like a lifestyle site. So that spinnies was moving to e-commerce um or had moved to e-commerce, and so we we scrapped other sites and went on to e-commerce, and then we built this team. So now what we look after is the magazine, so nourish, so um social media, all channels for spinnies, waitros, spinnies in Oman, spinnies in Saudi Arabia, all our offsets, so like the farm to table program, um, it's huge. Uh all the TikTok accounts, you know, it's it's massive. Um, what else do we do? All private label uh designs and and wording for all our products, so that's a huge part of the spinnies business. Um, and packaging design has always interested me. You know, like I love to go and look at food um in supermarkets or delis and see the packaging. So that's quite nice that we get to work on that.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:06

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:06

Um, so that we do all the videos around the world with our suppliers. Um, like our we've have very close relationships with all our producers. Yeah. And we show that on YouTube and to use it in store and for social media. So we um I'm directing all of those videos. Um, and then we also do all in-store marketing. So anything that you look at from a shelf talker on a you know, on a shelf that it might just have a picture with some wording to something on the screens, to um anything, any any words or pictures that you see in the store is coming out of my amazing team.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

That is a very large scope of work, plus the podcast, plus the podcast, which of course we will discuss. So I want to talk about the magazine. In terms of of that, how do you plan? And and it's a monthly uh installment.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:52

So it used to be every two months.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:54

Um, and so but what we're about to do in April is we're launching a new quarterly, and so I'll talk more about that. But so up until now it's been every two months.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:02

Um, we plan completely in um alignment with this with our overall marketing and content calendar. So we look at what are Spinny's key focus every year. Um, like the larger strategy, the key focuses are campaigns. So, you know, you've got Easter, Ramadan, Christmas, but then we've got projects that we run internally, um, like big projects. So we we're also backing that up in the magazine. And then I'm also bringing in evergreen content, and you know, so it's not only campaign-specific. So, for example, we had the Italian issue or we had the South African issue, and that was just because of the way that we chose to structure things because we were doing a large Italian focus. Um, we have a lot of private label products from Italy, so we wanted to do a magazine on that, and it's such a wealth of information. You know, so um we do a big brainstorm as a team. Um, so I've got my immediate team, and then I've got Caitlin, the girl who I met in the Seychelles all those years ago, um, from the Caiton. She um runs a highly successful kind of, she's a she actually studied to be a chef, um, realized that no one was taking good photography at the time, taught herself photography and food styling, and started. She was the ex-creative director on a TV show about food in South Africa, and then she went and did this. Um, and so I meet with her and her team, because they're part of our team now, um, and and I asked different writers to send in pictures as well. Um, and yeah, we plan, we're probably planning six months in advance for some things, and then sometimes two months in advance for for other things, so for each title. Um, and then certain things we leave open to like the very last second. So, like a new restaurant might open in Dubai, and we want an interview with that chef because it might fit the theme of the magazine. And then so we I always leave room for that. You've got to have room for that in spec unexpected, you know. Um, and so yeah, and we we're meticulous with our planning. Everything has a reason, it all has to tie back to like the spinny's message, and and it it's it's easy. We have very, very strong brand pillars, we know what we're doing. Um Yeah, and it it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

And these magazines, especially Nourish, is it um country centric or when you're when you're publishing the magazine, it's basically for all of the markets in the MENA region?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:13

So it's predominantly UAE specific. We are selling it in Oman and Saudi. Um but uh and we are we obviously I mean Saudi's been quite a new venture for us, so we haven't done a lot of Saudi-related content in the map. Not yet, but it's coming, you know. Yeah, um, and it's an exciting market.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:34

Uh we do a lot in Oman and we've done features on that. So it it yeah, it does speak to it's not isolating people, you know. But 70% of it has been recipes, so that's quite sort of you know, that speaks to everyone, you know, which we do from scratch. Um, so we're not syndicating anything. Absolutely every single photo is taken by someone like one of our photographers.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

Who develops those?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:55

Caitlin and her team develop all the recipes.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

And how involved are you in the tasting part?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:00

Not really, because they were doing it in South Africa. I hope you're listening, Caitlin. Um, but when and and they they're ruthless with their testing, you know, they test things a number of times, but then we they come out to Dubai three times a year. Oh, that's great. And um, then we do get to be involved in the tasting part. So um we love those those times when they're here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

Um but apart from obviously, you know, the the that job, which is you know incredibly I would not of course you've got the level of stress, yeah, but it has to be meticulous, as you said, and detailed. On top of that, you also have the podcasts, yeah. Right. So tell me when that started.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:38

Oh, this is a good test. Um, we are about 68 episodes in, right. And we do it every two weeks. I think we're I think it started three years ago, from what I remember. Um it's been a blur. Um but basically we were like, we need a podcast. We would we'd like to have a podcast. It will, if you look at the mix of what we have, it was the missing thing, you know. We're present every, you know, we like to be where our customers are. Yeah, and that was the missing link. And so Davina and I just decided um we can do this, you know, and uh obviously we with the the support of the the leadership team. And they were really excited, and I'm really grateful that they gave us the backing to do it because a podcast is not a um sort of it's an expensive business, you know, to set up. And so it's really great to have that support. And we we kind of have autonomy with it, which is also really nice. They were like, you know, we we pitched in an idea of what what we'd like to do, and it it was bang on, and so and then we they gave us trust and said go for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:37

Um yeah, no, it's beautiful. So that that that sort of question, you know, what nourishes your soul? That's a really lovely question to ask the guest. Yeah, but from from you know, all of those 68 interviews, yeah, what are what are the ones that really sort of stay with you?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

Wow. So many. You know, what and I think what what comes up in all of them is it doesn't matter how much research you've done on someone or how you how you may know that they think you know somebody, you will always learn something new and incredibly inspiring. And I think probably from everyone we've spoken to, everyone has gone through some form of hardship or ch major challenge, but being so steadfast in what they want to do that they they make it happen, you know, and and or have had this dream and they've been able to make it happen, and that's so inspiring. So I think it's the inspiring nature that you learn from from listening to other people's stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:34

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, and also what's really nice is that uh sometimes it's the both of you, yeah. And then it's one or the other, yeah, which is really nice. Um, and also the fact that you're doing it on site, yeah. Which is which is quite interesting, whether it's in spinnies or in the restaurant.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

How far ahead are you also planning those?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:53

Some of them quite far, and then others like last minute.com, you know. So it can I remember like uh Will Goldfarb was coming to the legend Will. And I'd heard him speak at 50 best a few years ago, and I was like, I need Will Goldfob on this podcast. You love that guy. Oh my god, he's amazing. And so we managed to pull it off. Um, our our podcast producer is incredible, Chirag. Um, and so yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, you can call him at any time and be like, Can you please do this? You know, um, and so we made that happen. And so, I mean, that all happened within like 24 hours, you know. Um, and so, and it was a fantastic episode, it did incredibly well. So, it's just learning to be flexible um and to yeah, so to to you can have your plan as always, but yeah, the unexpected.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

Yeah, so how far you know, what what are the plans for for the podcast? How far do you want to take it? I mean, is it is it going to travel to another country? Is it gonna go to Saudi? I mean, how do you want to structure it to go even further? Because 68 episodes is not easy.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:52

No, so there's a lot of growth happening with the podcast this year, definitely more content in content in Saudi, but we're also going to go weekly. So at the moment, we're every two weeks. Um, we're going to have a sort of chef food led one that is the main one every month.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:10

And then we are branching out into microcasts um that will happen weekly because there's so much content that we would like to talk about and share and that that touched different points that we focus on, it's been easy. Um, and so it's super exciting. So from April, um, it will be weekly.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

Wow, that's fantastic. Yeah, really, and also I have to say, congratulations on the awards that you've won. Thank you. Thank you. That's not an easy thing to do in in the vast landscape of podcasts. Yeah, but um, that's really incredible. Thank you. Well done for the team, honestly.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:38

Thank you. Um, yeah, it's uh it's so much teamwork from everyone. You know, it's like the social media team who's pushing all everything out once we've done the podcast, and obviously Davina and Shirag as well, the people who we've interviewed, um, people giving up their time and being part of it and being so open with their stories, and so and then all the listeners. So yeah, and it it makes it you make you feel like you you you I don't know, I feel proud and I feel that okay, all this work is worth it. You know, like it's um yeah, it's nice to be acknowledged as well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:07

So if I have to ask, from you know the the the time that you arrived here, December 2011, to to now, may I ask how has the media landscape changed and developed?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:20

Wow. It's I mean it's blown up with social media. That was just the beginning when I moved here. Um it was kind of like a an add-on that you did. I think magazines were still in their glory days. Um TV was still around, you know. I think it's I think it's become there you you've got a lot of people who are still here who are excellent at their craft and are doing those and sort of morphed with the times and transformed and managed to to make things work and and use different forms of media to their advantage and to tell their stories. But I also think there's so much noise out there and so much I don't want to say fluff, but like so much noise that you you're like you you're not sure what who you should be following, what who you know, these voices of authority that are popping up everywhere, like you know, so that's changed. Um I like the fact that it's more open and more people can can share media and news, but it's it's definitely a different ball game. And I I do kind of miss those old days as well, you know. Um, but I like the fact, I mean, the fact that we have the podcasts is is great, you know. Um so there's a lot of good stuff that's come out of these changes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:36

The other one is um a bone of contention with with with chefs, and I don't know if it's a bone of of contention with with uh food, you know, serious food writers. Yeah, and that is influencers, yes, right? Because again, uh it does have its own niche, it has carved out its own path. There are a myriad of PR agencies in the region who to some degree will say, okay, yeah, it's fantastic, we've got some brilliant food influencers here. Um, but then when you really look into the heart of it, they're not food influencers, they're more kind of beauty, let's say, and and and things like this. So from your perspective, if I'm specifically now talking about journalism, you know, within the realms of food and travel, uh in your opinion, what makes a great food and travel writer?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:35

So definitely someone who is a master of their craft with writing, like who's uh showing an original point of view and you know, like the way they observe the world and the the metaphors that they're using, and the you can tell like when you're reading something, if it's uh being taken off ChatGPT or if it's coming from someone who's genuinely interested, if there's like curiosity and interest, you know, and love and passion, and that they're doing it out of that, not because of being paid for some campaign or something like that, you know. Um it's and that also clearly shows someone who's done their research, who's reading a lot, who's yeah, like when you read good writing, that's that's what makes a good writer, you know. Um I don't want and someone who's not afraid to have an opinion as well, um, who's okay to speak up and say, you know, in the food world, no, this wasn't great. They're not trying to bash somebody, but they're they're not like just fluffing everything and being like, you know, this is great, you should all go here, la la la la la. That's not what you're looking for. You're wanting people that you can trust. Um, but I also I don't think it's nice on that on that note to publicly shame people. I wouldn't I'm not into that kind of thing, you know. Um, I think rather give people feedback to their faces rather than write about it and criticize them. Um travel writing, yeah. I mean, now today with all the endless YouTube travel vlogs that you can watch, I mean, you're taking time out to watch someone or to watch their content. I guess it's up to you. If you want like pure entertainment and like that's not rooted in something that's got depth and trust and honesty, that's up to you. But like that's what I'm looking for. Um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:16

And on that note, do you think that you know travel writing is is slowly dying, or do you think there's a niche for people to want to read incredible articles? Because you do have these travel blogs and they're everywhere. Let's be very honest, you know. And you've got very different demographics within within ages and and the entertainment factor side of things. But when it comes to true journalism, do you think peop there is still time for it? There's still love and passion for people to want to read these types of articles.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:51

Absolutely, I do, and I that's that is why I'm changing our current magazine as well to something that's more like um a coffee table collector's item. Because I if you look at all the research of where that's going, that is what is going to survive. There will be these niche titles and where you can have beautiful long form um essays and and that kind of thing. But it's from what I've read, is like it's you have to have created that trust with your brand or your your magazine already. And so for me, it's really going to work for Nourish because we have that loyalty from our audience. We've built that trust and we we know we have that interest. And so I'm making a space within this magazine now to have the 2,000, 2,500-word articles that are going into a very sort of niche um topics around food and lifestyle and wellness, but that that can be well researched because it there is room for that, um, and it is the way it's going to survive. Yeah, while you still have the shorter pieces, you know, um happening on on different platforms. But in print specifically, I think that's that will survive.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

Yeah, because I mean personally, I love print, I love newspapers, I still love to read newspapers and pick up magazines and that kind of thing. Yeah, even even in uh in restaurants, I hate QR codes. Me too. And I've I've said it publicly, I hate them. Yeah, uh, so I'd much rather pick up a menu and have a look at it, and also menu without pictures. I'm not I'm not one of those. I I want to leave it to the chef.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:20

Yes, I immediately sort of think, I don't think I want to eat at this restaurant if I see pictures.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:26

Sorry about that, but yeah, I'm I'm not uh that's not me. But look, also talking about you know, you've done so many things in your life when it comes to to food and travel, uh writing, experiencing, you know, loving Formula One.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

But I want to understand why did you go back to school? And I'm talking about Bally Malow.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:47

Oh, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:48

When did you make that decision to go?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:50

So I wanted to go in 2020, actually. Um, I had met Rachel Allen at Taste of Dubai. So she's one of the three people who's really in charge of social media. Lovely lady. Yeah, run by Darina Allen and her brother Rory, and then Rachel. Um, Rachel's married to Darina's son. And all, you know, famous chefs in their own right, cookbook authors. Um, Darina has put put slow food on the map. She's act, she's super active everywhere in Europe. Um, she's famous and wonderful. And I so I had read about, I'd met Rachel, I'd read about the cooking school. I'd always wanted to do a bit of something for myself, like going to so I looked at Colon Bleu as well. I'd always played with that idea. I never wanted to become a chef in a restaurant kitchen because I'd built it up thinking, you know, you see all these movies, you see you meet chefs and you hear how stressful it is. And I just I didn't want to be shouted at by people, and I didn't that it's that's not what I want to do. Um I respect it, I think it's amazing, but it's not for me. And so looking at Colombia, I was like, okay, that's I was talking to my really good friend Nadia Perek, who had gone, and she said, Look, I don't think that that's gonna be the best for you. You, for what you're looking for, look something more wholesome and yeah. So I looked, then I was looking at Bally Milieu and I thought, right, this is it. I mean, a cookery school that's been running for 40 years on a hundred-acre farm in Ireland where everything is organic, um, it's just it's the dream, right? And I love Ireland. So, and I wanted to, all my food up until then had been self-taught, right? So from travel, from my mum, from reading, from trying recipes, but I wanted more credibility for myself to be this editor of a food magazine and working in the food world for spinnies. Um, it was kind of like I I always like to learn, I never like to stop learning. And so I wanted to go and learn skills um to give me more credibility in a way. It's not like I was doubting myself, but it was like out of the interest and love for food, but also let me know what I'm talking about. So like I can have an opinion that's stronger because it's based in some more facts, you know? Um, yeah, I just I didn't want to be this sort of, yeah, it sort of rounded it up for me. So I was supposed to go in 2020, then COVID happened. And so I'd signed up and everything, and I'd arranged a sabbatical. Um, and then I, when I went in-house at Spinnies, they were so supportive of it, and they said, whenever you can go, you can still do this. Brilliant. And so it came around that I could do it in 2022, and um, I really had their support, which was incredible. I mean, I got three months off, you know. Um, I was working sometimes, but it was my amazing team stepped up as well. So that's yeah. So I ended up going in 2022. I went the best time, I think halfway through April to halfway through July. So I got like all the spring foods and island, we got to go foraging, I got the most amazing weather in 12 weeks. I think I had four days of rain. So I don't know what people are talking about, bad Irish weather because it was yeah. Um, and you know, we were on this farm that was 1.5 kilometers from the sea. So every day after school I was swimming and cold plunging in the sea. Um, you couldn't, I didn't have a car there. I decided so that it forced me to walk everywhere, which was really nice. And it was incredible, a most incredible experience. Intense, super intense experience because it's like a year's worth of cooking school in 12 weeks. Um, but just so um every day I woke up and I couldn't wait to go and cook and attend all the lectures and meet all the producers. And um, yeah, we did things like milking the cows, even, you know, and picking vegetables and gardening and um yeah, it was just it was so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:24

But it's a proper certified school.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:27

Certified school, like really well known and has been running for 40 years. I mean, some amazing people have been through it, and they get fantastic chefs to come and talk as guest chefs. Uh, but yeah, certified. So it's a very well-known certificate to have once you finished. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:43

And how many people were on the course at the same time as in students?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:47

So 60 of us. Um, they have four kitchens, so around 15 people per kitchen. Um every week. We were moving around? Uh every week we moved kitchens. So you would move, so you were cooking at like stations with two people always, but you were so you were partners, but you weren't partners because you were doing your own thing, but you were kind of learning to work next to someone and to make sure through the whole time that you were gaining all the skills that you needed. So they would like teach you 20 recipes every day in the afternoon, like demonstrate those and talk about skills and all of that, and then the next day you would cook certain things from what had been demonstrated, but you needed to be responsible to make sure, like, okay, I've learnt XYZ skill this week. Um, I need to make sure next week I'm doing something that is making sure I get that skill. If you yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:35

So and can I ask, was it uh amateurs or was it pros? What were the the sort of different types of people that had enrolled in the school?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:45

So so varied. We had people who were straight out of school, so like 19-year-olds who were going there instead of going to university to do their three months of cooking school and then hoping to get into because they also have great connections, so they could help you get into any restaurant if you wanted to go that route and and go and get an internship and then work your way up.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:05

Um, we had wonderful people who had retired, so like in their 60s. Um it's quite intense for them, you know, for them, I'm gonna say. You know what was cool was be hanging around them and realizing that they were there out of sheer passion. Um, they wanted to do this, and so and they didn't get so stressed, you know. And so if you look at killing them, exactly. You know, they I I don't think they because we had exams at six weeks and at 12 weeks, right? Written exams. Um, there was a lot to learn theory-wise, and then you're doing this big practical, but they took it in their stride, and that was cool. And then you've got like all these youngsters who are like, oh my god. And then also in the between, so 30-year-olds, 40-year-olds. Um, so really nice. And you you're kind of all in the same, it's a great leveler, you're all in the same boat.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:46

Um, maybe an incredible connection as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:49

Super and you know, to see how people have gone on, you know, and are doing incredibly well, that's so inspiring. Um, so yeah, and it's it's a real community, they keep the alumni thing going. We're constantly invited back to like events um for the 40th. We were invited last year. Um, anyone who wanted to go to like a big lunch, and it uh it was it was amazing. Every when I look at photos, like I'm glowing as well. You know, it was I think I was so happy there.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:17

Sounds like a like a mini friendship. Yes, yeah, in a way.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:20

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the producers and the nature, and oh, it was incredible. Um, anyone who's looking at doing something like that, I s I rarely say do it. Um, there have been a few people from here who have gone since I've been and I've spoken to them, and right they they have the same experience, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:38

So in the same vein, obviously you took those incredible things, you know, you became a uh a bit more of an authority because you you you done it. Yes, yeah, right. But in the at the same time, you also have a really beautiful supper club.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:54

So did you take some of those things from Ballymalo, you know, into the supper club? And equally, why did you decide to actually, you know, go ahead and put a little bit of pressure on yourself?

SPEAKER_04 1:26:07

So I had I started going to supper clubs in Dubai in like 2019, I think when they they started kicking off. Really? I went to I remember going to Girl and the Goose, um, and that's where I met Gabby and because you've become a really close friend since then, and a bunch of others, um Thanos, um, you know, all of them. Um, Murush Baike, uh uh Niha's one, can you know, um, like story of food. Um, and I thought, I love having people at my house and I love cooking, and I always have this need to feed my friends. Like I completely overcater. You know, so I I thought, why don't I start a suburb? And then I just always let work get in the way, and like, you know, you make excuses and you whatever. And so when I went to Ballymaloo, I said, when I get back, I need to start this submer club for myself. Like that is the condition, you know. Um, and so it took a while, but then I did it. And so I started last year, um, at the beginning of the year, and I did it because of this overwhelming need to feed people, um, and and be creative and and have this outlet. And it's it gives me like so much joy to do it and to work with ingredients that are great quality and tell the stories of those ingredients. I that's what I've been doing at Spinny's. Um, you know, I'm writing about it, and now I get to actually feed people and like they it's tangible, you know, and like they can taste it. And um it's interesting because you realize that not everybody, you know, I remember having below mushrooms on the menu, and for me, like I know them, uh like we've done work with them, and then a few people didn't know about this mushroom farm that we have, which is an incredible story. And so I like being able to share those stories with people and and interact one on one. Um, I wasn't I was a little bit nervous the first night, um, but since then, not been nervous. Um, it's it's interesting who comes to a soap club and who books it, you know. Um Because they're putting themselves out there as well. A lot of people come by themselves and so it's a great way to make new friends and the conversations are fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:07

But that's what I was going to ask you is what's the sort of key denominator when you're sort of in the kitchen but having a sneaky look at the guests?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:19

What what what surprises you or what do you love the most in that environment?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:24

I like watching how things evolve naturally. So my kitchen is really straight onto where the table is. So I can I'm very much part of the experience. I can hear everything. And I I remember thinking beforehand, oh my god, what if people don't talk to each other? And I don't have these games where I have topics to pull out of a hat because I didn't want to do that. Um I think it's good sometimes, but I didn't choose to have that. And then I just thought, why don't you just watch and see what happens? And then you see. I mean, everybody's an adult, they're going to talk. Yeah. You can't force people to speak to each other, you know. And it's it's just so interesting to see how people bond over stories of food or completely irrelevant stories, but and yeah, and everywhere it will evolve, and everything will do every time will be different. Um, there's a there's always a slightly different vibe, but it's it's always jovial and good, and so far, touch wood.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:16

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So and then one how are you going, how are you looking to evolve it?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:24

So the grand plan, I mean, my apartment is quite small. I live in a one-bedroom apartment. So ultimately, I'd like to be able to fit like eight to ten people instead of six. Um, so I probably should just get a new table because I can fit that in. Okay, very nice. Um, so that's the first step. Um, a lot of friends in the industry have been really kind and offered spaces. So whether it's like private dining rooms and their restaurants or whatever. Oh, that's cool. So I'm looking at that because I mean that's hugely generous, it's not benefiting them in any way, they're doing it out of sheer support, you know. Um, I was a bit hesitant because I was like, oh, then it takes it away from my home, but actually not. I mean, it's still TIFF's table, it's um, you know, I am still cooking, and if I can have more people, that's better. And it's part of the community still. So I am looking at that. The ultimate dream is to have a boutique, restaurant, and like hotel guest house in Greece. That's where I would love to live. Um, and I'm talking in a good few years' time. Um, but I'd love a space where I could bring visiting chefs to do like some cooking classes and workshops, host supper clubs there. So kind of like a culinary retreat, maybe do some food writing. Super nice, okay. Um, and just uh yeah, Greece has always spoken to me. Um, and so that's the plan. I need to work towards that. But yeah, I wouldn't mind having a cookbook as well one day linked once I've made enough uh recipes for my supper club. But um, yeah, I've done cookbooks before and it it would be nice to do one for myself. So that's these are the plans, but at the moment I just need to bring the supper club back this year. So yeah, and it is coming back, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:00

The last question before we get on to the quick fire round is again within your time here in in the MENA region, how have you seen and what are your thoughts on the vast dining landscape?

SPEAKER_04 1:31:17

Wow, I think it's exciting. I remember being here in 2011 and thinking, is this it? There's uh hardly any uh uh cool homegrown brand like cafes to go to, and coming from South Africa where we have that. I just remember being so disappointed in all these chain restaurants and yeah, just really uninspired. And then to see it evolve has been incredible, and so many wonderful success stories and variety of food, you know. Um I think there's it's interesting to watch how obviously with like social media and and and certain things that pop up and you and you think, oh gosh, this is totally just for the gram, you know. But that's okay, that happens in every city, and that's part of like the the evolving nature of this place. Of course. Um I think we have incredible chefs working here, and I think I I hope I'm not being like sounding like Switzerland, but I think our community is so strong as well. I think everyone's on on the whole supports each other as well. When I look at all of our chef friends, and you know, I think how encouraging is that, and this energy that is here, and so many people talk about that. Like there's just within the food world, especially, there's a great energy. Um, so yeah, I think it's exciting, and I mean there's clearly room for more, you know. I think um I was talking to Shaw, who is uh, you know, she was like, Dubai is open for business. I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Um yeah, and just uh yeah, it's been it's there's so many wonderful people working here. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:47

No, you're right. I think the we're very fortunate to have such an incredible community of people, and and nothing is hidden. If you need support for something, you can reach out to anyone, and people are genuinely happy to help. And if they they can't help you, they'll put you they'll point you in the right direction, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:03

Right? Yeah, so it's a very open society, it's um and especially in the food world. Absolutely, yeah. And I mean, aren't we lucky to have so many incredible cuisines on our doorstep? You know, you can yeah, yeah, whatever you want is here, yeah. And done well, done exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:21

So Tiff, we've now come to the quick fire round. So I'm gonna let you get ready.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:25

Okay, let me have some water.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:27

Yeah, so first of all, the the hardest question for anybody who comes on the show what's your favorite ingredient?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:36

So sumac and vanilla. Can I have more? Of course. And artichokes. Um, that's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:42

Global motor chokes or Jerusalem artichokes? Both. Okay, very good.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:47

And uh oh my gosh. That's yeah, I can't now I've got like yeah. I like it though, sumac and vanilla. Yeah, yeah. Super cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:54

Uh spicy or pickled?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:56

Pickled.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:58

Uh poiky or bunny chow.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:00

Poiky.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:02

Uh bulvest or bil tongue.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:04

Oh my god, no. Uh biltong. But venison biltong. Okay, okay, very good.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:12

Now, um, as of this moment right now, yeah, what would you say are your top three favorite cuisines to eat?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:20

Japanese, Peruvian, and Mexican.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:26

Oh, lovely. Uh, in the same vein, who would you say are your top three culinary food heroes, but they don't necessarily need to be chefs.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:37

Oh, okay. My mother, because yeah, I that's where I got my love of food. Um, I am going to say Gabriella, my one of my best friends, I think what she has done is incredible building Golden the Goose, and that is a sheer story of grit and determination, and her food is unbelievable, and I'm honored to have it as a friend. Um oh my gosh, like how am I gonna uh Rory Allen from Bally Maloo? The way that he taught me to speak and write about food, like the just the way he describes food is so poetic, and he was the biggest surprise of that course. Um I loved his lectures.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:17

Um, from all of your time, whether it's food and travel, in the school, in the supper club, can you tell me your funniest kitchen incident or restaurant incident that you've seen or been involved in?

SPEAKER_04 1:35:38

Okay. So I have two. Can I take two? So one is actually it's in a restaurant, but it I was a waitress. And I every year at uni in the December holidays, I would try my hand at waitressing. I would last like two weeks because I'm not a waitress. And I was working in this thing called the Leopard Lounge, which was part of the Twelve Apostles in Cape Town.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:59

Uh really fancy hotel, really like, you know, fancy bar. And we were called like the people used to call us the leopard ladies, you know, like it was just terrible. My best friend and I were doing this, like these two, yeah. And I was carrying a tray of Bloody Marys, and I tripped and I spilt it on this woman who was completely decked out in white, and it just they just flew because we had to climb up and down stairs, and she was so graceful about it and just laughed it off and sat there on her date covered in Bloody Mary. So that one. And then at Bally Malou, actually, the one of the teachers, Pam, she screamed across the kitchen because she said, Tiffany, like I'm a really messy cook, and I thought that Bally Malou would get that out of me. Like, I'm not one. I don't know how all of you chefs are so ordered. Like, I create chaos in the kitchen. And she screamed across the kitchen and she was like, Tiffany, you are a brilliant cook, but you make a brilliant mess. Now clean up.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:56

That's just that's all I gotta have in my mind. Yeah, and I still I don't know what's wrong with me. I just can't. I'm driving all in. Even to this day?

SPEAKER_04 1:37:02

Even to this day. I mean, I'm probably improving, but I need someone behind me. Like, I'm you need one of those sous chef like who's less.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:09

Yeah, I'm a mad, mad cook. Uh okay, so like a mad professor in a way. Okay, like it.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:14

Like it. Now, what advice would you give to budding food and travel writers who just want to start?

SPEAKER_04 1:37:24

I would say don't be afraid and don't doubt yourself at all to pitch ideas to people. So write, get the names of editors, um, whether it's online or in print, and email them directly. And you know, don't if you if you know someone like in a town, go up to them if you can at the right moment. Um have your angle, no, learn how to pitch properly. So read about that, um, so that you're writing these great hooks. I would say write some things for free. I don't think from the start that you should think you don't let yourself be exploited, but definitely write, offer to write for free, to get in to do things. Write and do that writing about what you're passionate about from the beginning, because that's when your best voice is going to come out. So don't yeah, the things that you yeah, the things that you're using for your portfolio to get out there, write from your heart and be passionate. Um, and there's a bit like Dubai is open for business, people are always looking for writers and and good writers. And so if you can show your interest and your passion and you're able to share that, to to communicate that, do it. You've got nothing to lose. You know, someone will accept you, like someone will need something written and will say yes, do it. Um and if someone wants to pitch something to me, they can listening to this. Um, and I'm happy to give feedback. But yeah, and and and don't give up, you know, there's there's so many ways to get your message out there, um, and so many platforms today. I mean, get a Substack account, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:55

Now what advice would you give to your 16-year-old self?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:05

Wow. Um I would say calm down a bit. I was a real eight-type student, um, and that things will always unfold in the way that they are meant to unfold. So you can have your plan, but the the joy is in the things that are actually surprising and and yeah, yeah. Love and take risks and don't be afraid of those risks.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:36

Perfect advice for anyone, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:39

Now, if anybody wanted to get hold of you through social media, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:44

So just through my platform, so Tiffany underscore ezlik, or if you want to message spinnies, um, you know, there's that way as well. Um, I have an open profile on Instagram, um, and also my email address is out there in the magazine. So it's it's there, Tiffany.e at finefairfood.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:59

Beautiful. Yeah. So I'll put all of that also in the show notes for people to have a look. Yeah. The only thing that's left for me to say is on behalf of the chef JKP podcast, Tiffany, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. And another thank you for being that incredible voice for not just the food industry, but for anyone in travel, in writing, uh, within the podcasting world, all of those stories that you keep telling and spreading the word, it is incredible what you are doing. So, thank you so, so much for being that voice that we must carry on and share and you know have all over the world. So, really honestly, thank you so so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:44

Thank you, and and thank you for having me on this podcast. Like it it means a lot, you know. And I think what you're doing is incredible. It's so interesting to see a chef doing this, you know, and you you're creating this amazing community as well. And um, it's been so much fun chatting to you. Um, I think you're very, very good at this, and that um this needs to become your full-time thing. Um, but yeah, thank you. I remember it's been it's been really great. Yeah, it's made me think about a lot of things that I've done actually. And I will maybe take my own advice and take a risk about something quite soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:15

So, yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 1:41:18

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:18

Cool, Tiffany. Thank you so much for such a thoughtful and engaging conversation. I really love the fact that she's a proper foodie, and she started writing at a super young age. Plus, to take a sabbatical from work to go and gain experience from one of the best cookery schools on the planet, I think, is amazing. And I have to mention, her work plays an important role in documenting food culture, especially within the region, and celebrating the people behind it. Go and check out the magazine Nourished by Spinnies and her incredible podcast. Make sure you do that. Well, if you want to see more of what Tiffany is doing, as always, head over to the show notes. Well, gang. Again, we've come to the end of another incredible show. Now, the only thing I'm going to ask you is to share the show. Share away to your friends, family, dog, fish, cat, whoever. Because we want to spread the word that is super important. So please make sure you press that all-important follow button on any podcast platform. Leave us a cheeky five-star review at the same time, and it really does help for more people to discover the show. Equally, a huge thank you to Valrona, our headline sponsor. Please make sure to go and check them out. They have some incredible products, and their chocolate is the best in the world. And I don't know if you're thirsty or not, but sometimes you want to have an amazing thermos basket, I believe. So uh huh. We have those. Check out the show notes, that's where you can purchase them from, and they are absolutely amazing and at a great price too. The end is ChefJKP signing out until next time. Food is memories.