The Rise of Indian Food with Himanshu Saini and Liam Collens (E161)

What changes when a three Michelin star restaurant becomes a book?

In this episode, Chef JKP sits down with Himanshu Saini and Liam Collens for the launch of The Rise of Indian Food: Recipes Reimagined by Trèsind Studio.

This episode goes inside the making of the book.

How a three Michelin star restaurant was translated onto the page.
How recipes were selected, tested, written, edited, photographed, and made clear for readers outside the kitchen.
And how Himanshu’s story, Trèsind Studio’s philosophy, and Liam’s writing came together in one of the most important Indian cookbooks of its time.

The book captures five regions of India, more than 50 recipes, and the thinking behind one of Dubai’s most celebrated restaurants.

WHAT YOU WILL HEAR IN THIS EPISODE

• Why the book started and how the idea was pitched
• How Trèsind Studio’s story became a published cookbook
• Why the book is structured around five regions of India
• What it took to write recipes from a three Michelin star kitchen
• The challenge of making complex dishes clear for readers
• How Himanshu chose what to share and what to leave out
• Liam’s role in shaping the writing and voice of the book
• The photography, editing, revisions and publishing process
• What the book means for Indian food globally
• Advice for young chefs and writers

CHAPTERS

00:00 Catching up after three Michelin stars
08:00 The moment Michelin walked into Trèsind Studio
18:00 What the three stars meant for Indian food
33:00 How the book idea first started
52:00 Why Liam became the co-author
01:14:00 Writing the book alongside restaurant service
01:28:00 Structuring the book around India’s regions
01:40:00 Food photography, recipes and publishing edits
01:53:00 The title, the design and holding the first copy
02:28:00 Quickfire round and advice for chefs and writers

ORDER THE BOOK

The Rise of Indian Food
Phaidon: https://www.phaidon.com/en-int/products/the-rise-of-indian-food-recipes-reimagined-by-tresind-studio?

Amazon: https://amzn.eu/d/0bPlAYGe

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Himanshu Saini
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chefhimanshusaini/

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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/itsliamcollens/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

That's right. The podcast is now on YouTube, so you can watch all of the interviews at your leisure. At the same time, your contribution to the show by hitting that subscribe button makes a monumental difference to the show, as we can keep inviting the guests you love and keep having the conversations that no one else is having. The only thing that I ask is that you share the show. Welcome to the Chef JKP podcast with me, James Knight Pacheco. Culinary brothers and sisters, foodie disciples, this is the place where you will find your solace, a place of worship for all things that combine us together. The common thread that brings us around the table. Food and memories. Wherever you are in the world, whatever you're doing, I ask that you sit back and listen and perhaps take away a few morsels of advice. There will be laughter, we're gonna get serious. Above all, lessons for life. You're listening to the Chef JKP podcast, and this is what you can expect on today's show. Everyone is there, you're talking, it's a nice interview, and then all of a sudden, the head of Michelin walks in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I want to know your thoughts when he did walk in. I was a bit shocked, and if you see my face, uh I was a bit stone called. I have no expressions. He came and he said, Congratulations, you've become the first restaurant in the history to get three Michelin stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Immanshu asked you to co-author his book, one of the biggest publishing houses in the world. At any point, was there any pressure?

SPEAKER_06 1:42

I was incredibly excited at the idea of it, but at the same time it's also going, I have a full-time job, my wife is six months pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

In 2016 on the Instagram, I wrote to Mishhtinguid very randomly. Hey Mishtenguide, when are you coming to Dubai? And of course I didn't get any answers. Just last year when I got three stars, and one of the ladies asked me this question that did you ever want Mishtian Guide to come to Dubai? And I said, Okay, I'll just quickly show them the message on the phone that I wrote, and I realized that it was 7th of November 2025, and I wrote the message 2016, 7th of November. Can you believe what are the odds?

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Hello my friends, and a very warm welcome back to the Chef JKP podcast. Wherever you're listening, uh maybe uh I want to know where are you listening from today? I want to know is it the kitchen, is it the school run? Are you driving in the gym? Maybe you're having a little listen at work. Um, whatever you're up to, please don't forget to give me a little message and let me know. As I love to know what you're up to. But, anyways, I'm super glad that you're all here. Before we begin, please do not forget to hit that all-important subscribe button or YouTube, or press follow wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us to grow the show and continue bringing you the most fascinating conversations with the most inspirational guests. That is all you will ever ask of you lovely people. Today, this is a very, very special episode. Because today, the 6th of May, is the global release of a truly remarkable book that I have in my hand right now. And oh my god! The rise of Indian food. Recipes reimagined by the amazing people at Trestend Studio. And what perfect timing! Because joining me for this world exclusive conversation are two brilliant minds behind it. First, a chef I have personally known for many years, and someone I am proud to call a friend. Chef Himanshu Seni. A chef whose journey has been extraordinary. From relentless hard work, quiet determination, and world-class talent to leading Trestind Studio, the only Indian three-star mission restaurant in the world. Now, gang, let that sink in for a second. The only one in the world. And alongside him, another great friend of the show, a phenomenal writer, a storyteller, and one of the sharpest voices in food media, the amazing Liam Collins. Together, they have created something far more than just a cookbook. I have to say, this book is a statement, it's a celebration, a document of creativity, identity, heritage, and the evolution of Indian cuisine through a modern lens. In today's conversation, we talk about the labour of love that went into creating this phenomenal book. The stories behind the recipes, the emotion, the pressure, and that process. I have to say, this is a phenomenal, incredible team effort to bring this thing to life. I mean, it's just amazing. There is also, by the way, a cheeky cameo from another dear friend of the show, Courtney Brandt, who helped to make this conversation happen. And for that, we thank her. I have to be super honest with you. Parts of this conversation are deeply emotional. I've watched Himanshu grow over the years, and seeing where he is today fills me with genuine pride. The same goes for Passion FB Group, the company behind Trestan Studio, whose growth and ambition deserve huge respect. And of course, stay tuned for the quick fire round. That famous quick fire round. This conversation is full of substance, honesty, passion, and pure inspiration. So, let's do what we do best. Time to rock and roll. Just before we begin, here is a small message from this week's guest.

SPEAKER_06 6:47

Hey everyone, I'm Liam Collins, and I'm a food writer and co-author of The Rise of Indian Food. If you love to hear stories about restaurants in Dubai and the food community here, then make sure you like the podcast, follow, share, and subscribe.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Hi, my name is Shafi Mancho Sani, and I'm from Dressing Studio Restaurant in Dubai. If you like the podcast, make sure you follow, share, and subscribe.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Gents, a very warm welcome back to the show. Now, for this one-off special, it's incredible to have the two of you here. Liam, of course, you've been here before, and you're always here for the Christmas special, which we love.

SPEAKER_06 7:24

Ching Ching Ching.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

And of course, the legend that is Himanshu. Himanshu, the last time you were on the show, it was actually season four, and we're now in season twelve, which was in November 2023, and you were the headline act.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

And that was when you had one star, actually, which was amazing. So there's a lot of catching up to do. But the first thing I have to mention is so back in May 2025, there was a historic event that happened. Not only did Dubai get three mission stars, but uh there were two restaurants. And out of the two, yourself, you know, you were the first ever Indian restaurant to earn three mission stars. It changed the game forever. Yes. And uh I was there. I I couldn't tell you how emotional I got when when you were on stage. Um not only because I'm a chef, but also because I'm your friend. And and uh since the inception of Tress in Studio when it was a a tiny little place to where it is now, for me it it was uh something just so phenomenal. So I couldn't I wanted to get your thoughts first of all on on the day, on the emotion, and equally on the pre-little video that mission did, which was amazing. So take me back first of all when you were doing that little video interest in studio.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah. So when you just started speaking, see I got a bit of a goosebumps, so it's always the case. And you know, it's a bit funny, and that it's been one year, it's gonna be one year, and it's still uh quite unbelievable, you know. It's still moments like this makes me realize that okay, we have three stars. It's a moment like the book which realized that we have three stars. And um and before I begin talking about uh uh the day Michelin came to shoot with us, there's a funny story, uh not a funny, but it's like m my way of manifestation, which has always worked for me. I in 2016 uh on the Instagram I wrote to Michelin Guide very randomly just this one question Hey Michelin Guide, when are you coming back? When are you coming to Dubai? And of course I didn't get any answers. And uh just last year when I got three stars, uh the Michelin team decided because they're doing an internal activity with some new joinees, and they and they asked me to come and talk about my experience being in Dubai and how we got three stars. So it was a great experience. And I was just sitting with a bunch of 10-15 people discussing, and one of the ladies asked me this question that uh when do you think uh did you ever want Michelin guide to come to Dubai? Uh what was your position on that? And I said, Okay, I'll just quickly show them the message on the phone that I wrote many years ago. And I opened up the message and I showed the mess and I was reading it, and I realized that it was 7th of November 2025, and I wrote the message 2016, 7th of November. Can you believe what are the odds, you know? Wow, and I was just everyone was so spooked about it that it was it was this fact that you know that moment realized that my stars are always aligned with them or or the other way around. So that was that's the kind of bond, I don't know bond, but that's a kind of energy exchanged we've been doing without really being in touch. Uh it's just so much energy which you give out to universe, it just comes around. And stories like this uh makes my belief even more stronger, you know. And uh before, like when from 2024, when we retained two stars, and uh the whole year was was to just look forward. You know, you receive advice for so many from so many people that you know you don't push yourself, you just got two stars in two years, you retain another two stars. It's not easy, it's a it's a long game. But somehow, you know, being me, I always felt, you know, why not? Why do anyone sit in their comfort zone saying two is enough in two years, let's just keep it easy, take it easy. That was not the case. Even though so many people told me like that, I was in my mind I was still thinking that why not what's the harm in pushing for three stars? I mean, there is a risk of losing the second one, but I mean it's okay. Uh the the odds are greater in that sense if we get three. And throughout the whole year, I was you I used to do again a very spooky kind of a thing. I used to enter my restaurant and see two Michelin stars. I used to tweak my eyes and make it look into three. So I was manifesting the plaque with three Michelin stars for the whole one year. I'm not saying I was not doing any work, I was just doing that. But then apart from this, this is my belief, my manifestation that if I'm if I'm going after it, that's the first thing which I want to imagine myself being in that position that I already have three stars. So it is a lot of uh like this. Should it was always in my head, every decision I was making in the restaurant was driven by this, and I know that how much it can mean to a cuisine like Indian food. And I was not just doing it for the sake of my personal pride, of course. That was the ambition. But then I could I I understood the gravity of any Indian restaurant getting three stars would open up so much for for billions of people. You know, Indian food is not we've discussed this in the first episode, is not how people think it should be. Like even today, people come to my restaurant and their first impression is let's see how a three Michelin star looks like, you know, in a very sarcastic way. Like we were not expecting this, even though it is approved by Michelin Guide that it's a three Michelin star restaurant, it's still people think that it's it cannot. But their perception, their mindset is that is on us to change it in the next next two hours. So I mean, with all of this happening, um uh we've got an email from Michelin guide uh one month before uh saying that they want to come and take some B-roll shots uh because I've cooked for the guide in uh in Doha. Uh they said they want to come and shoot for those shots so that they can promote the event next year. I was a bit like I thought there's something wrong because why would you come one day before uh to shoot for something which is going to happen next year, but then you are not really sure until you are sure. And uh and just that one month was was such a long month. Yeah, yeah. Every day was uh was hard to um was hard to live. And then uh just closer to the day of the shoot, they've given us the the brief, they asked us to come like super early, 7 a.m. in the morning. They said bring the whole team and uh and then we said okay. Um but then the moment in the morning when I came 7 a.m. I was shocked to see the size of the crew, man. There were so many of them. How many roughly? I mean maybe 15. What's a lot in that space? Yeah, and with big cameras, and so it's like if I believe 50% that it's happening, seeing that camera crew made me believe 90% that it's happening. It's a lot of effort with some B-roll. Exactly. When I was discussing with uh with Tipawan and everyone, they said, yeah, that was a bit of our fault that we brought so many people and it was like a bit too obvious, but then but then you know it's not sure until it's until it's officially there. So and then we and they actually began shooting all those dishes which I have done in Qatar just to maybe buy some time. And you know, I've seen this happening in the restaurant uh who get who get three stars in the last two, three years. This has been the case that they come and they do a bit of filming in the restaurant, and then the then the iPad comes and they and you will see Mr. Mr. Gwendal. Yes, yeah. Uh so we thought it's going to be like that. Um, but he walked in was the biggest surprise.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Well, that's what I want to ask you because if for anybody who hasn't seen that clip, if I just set the scene, obviously, you as you said, you have the full team, yeah, everyone is there. Yeah, you're talking, it's a nice interview, you know, and then all of a sudden, this guy, the head of Michelin, walks in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

I want to know your thoughts when he did walk in.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Were you like uh the the the final picture was with me sitting on a chair and they asked my team to be around me and they said uh see you in Qatar next year, and then we all need to jump. And maybe we have done that like 20 times. Uh see you in Qatar, yay! And they said, Do it again. Oh no. Maybe because they were they just want to time his uh coming into the restaurant. Right. And uh and then I was a bit shocked. Uh, and then if you see him, then you know why he's there. Uh and if you see my face, uh I was a bit stone cold. I have no expressions. And uh along with him, also Mr. Sangwi, who's like the big journalist from India. Yeah, he also walked in, and he's also something very special in my life because he's seen my journey in the last 20 years. Uh he's coming, he's he's he knew me from Indian accent days. So even seeing him was very special. Uh that someone was there to verify, you know, validate uh the 20 years of my cooking cycle. Uh and then like it was it happened in like 22nd. Uh he came and he said, Congratulations, uh you become the first restaurant in the history to get three Michelin stars. And I I mean Mr. Sanghui told me, asked me after that. He said, I know you from a very long time. I know you're an emotional guy. I know you've I seen you crying, uh, but what happened that day? I said it was just so hard to, you know, it's so many things, uh so many memories, so many flashes, uh, so many nights of uh feeling dejected, disappointed, walking up to all these awards, like time out, good food, BBC. They were the first like the big three what's on. And I remember being in those ballrooms, uh going there, being dressed up, and then coming back home feeling disappointed only. And it's not been a case for one year. This was for many, many years. You know, you walk into the room and you see um great restaurants winning great awards. Um, but always I I always mention Gregoire Hineris because in many of these nights when we he used to walk walk off the stage to give an interview, and I used to walk off the ballroom to go out, and he used to, you know, uh like hold his speech and come up to me and say, you know, I know what you're doing, so don't worry, it'll happen. And he just used to say these simple lines, words to me, and and that's it. So that's why I really regard him also in that sense that he was one of the first few people who actually, as a chef, uh shown some confidence in what we are doing. Uh so a lot of things, you know, as I said, flashes and memories. So that's why I I don't think I have any expression. Um but then uh I don't know if I'm supposed to say stay say it here because I was um I was a smoker, I stopped smoking uh during that year for good eight months, and then when the moment arrives, I went out in peace. I cried my heart out, I smoked a cigarette. Um I called my wife. Uh I just asked them that at least can I tell my wife because I need to share it with someone, otherwise I'll keep on crying like this. So they said, Yeah, you can do that. But then they made a sign an NDA that we are not supposed to say this to anyone, and it was super super hard. Yeah. Uh but because there are several restaurants around us, of course. Maybe that's why they've chosen they chose like this early morning hour so nobody uh can see the moment happening. Uh but also that that that one day was such a relief, you know, it was it was magical.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Uh was I want to take you back then. You know, obviously there was that particular day which was absolutely full of emotion for yourself and for the entire team, your family. Um but then the day of the mission in Gala, right? Uh I remember it very well because I was also doing a bit of cooking there, right? Uh and I was just thinking at the time I was like, okay, there's a lot going on here. And I and I was because I was there beforehand, doing the meetings on plastic setup, and I was looking at all the cameras on the stage, and I was like, okay, this is gonna be quite big, this is gonna be really super cool. Everybody coming in, of course we saw everyone. Um so before I get to you, uh Liam, for yourself, you were also thinking what's happening because you've been in the landscape for a long time. When you heard the news.

SPEAKER_06 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

What were your emotions and feelings?

SPEAKER_06 20:51

I I was um I was in the middle of selling a company at the time. Yeah, you were a little bit busy, yeah. I was busy and I was I was at work and I had a screen over on the side, just it was I can't remember what time I was, so it felt like it was late at night. Um and the moment I realized something happened was uh for people maybe not familiar with how the ceremony goes, they they start with the um the the restaurants that are in the guide but don't necessarily have a special award, right? And then you move on to the bibs and things like that, and then you get to the one stars, and if you've got a one star, you're you're either hoping to hear your name or hoping not to hear your name, and because that means you've maybe you've gone up, right? So it you you're going, you're ascending up the stars, and then I think um Roe was announced, yes, right, and some of the other restaurants were announced, and then at that point they said, Okay, that everyone get together for a photo, and I was like, and and I just felt like my stomach fall out from underneath me. I was like, Oh my god, it's happening. Like this and and and just sort of choking up because then that meant well, firstly, I think people were waiting to hear about FZN as well, too, right? Because this this was and we talked about this on the show, I think, yes earlier. We were saying, are they gonna go in hot with three? Are they not, you know. All this sort of stuff. And so when FZM wasn't announced in alphabetical order of the two stars, it's like, oh, okay, so they probably have they've probably got three then, or maybe they're gonna do a special appearance for two. But then when Tresm Trezent Studio wasn't announced for the two stars, that's when I realized what was and I I I don't know, like my life flash before my eyes or something. And then I was sort of looking, and it was and then the FZN crew get up on stage, and it was great, you could you could see, right? You know, these teeth this team they've been working for decades, or some of them in other parts of restaurants and what it meant to come in hot, you know, with with the three stars. I mean, they all credit to them, right? They've they've really honed their craft to to come in with that. Um but then I didn't know any of the stuff that that Himansh had spoken about because he signed an NDA. Well good, well done, good, well done. Well done. Um I didn't know any of this. And so when you saw the film being put together, it was just like this this is happening and and the the ceremony was touching in that sense because I think they also were alive to the sense of occasion that this happened, you know. This is a homegrown restaurant in Dubai, right? And it's it's one of the first uh to get three stars, it's the first Indian restaurant in the world to get three stars. And so I think you know, all credit to Mishnah as well for kind of recognizing the moment and meeting it where it was. Um, and then I think because I know Himanchu so well, seeing the whole, you know, the team get up on stage, the thing that I was really proud of you for was you can see him now, he's a very sort of stoic kind of character, very calm, you know, or that doesn't let his emotions kind of show. But you you grab the award and you punch the air. And I think in that moment, I think everyone, the whole room felt it as well too. And I was I was at my desk, you know, I was I was somewhere else, you know, doing a deal, but I was just like, that's it, you know, and I think that that's the video clip that you see people repeat now when it goes up because it was this is it, it has happened, you know, a ceiling has been cracked. Um, and I think you embodied the emotion of everybody in that room too. I couldn't stop myself. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

It was well done, my it was not something that I thought of. Uh it was just I I just wanted to like my of course I was what should I do?

SPEAKER_06 24:11

Yeah, you felt the roar of a billion people in that moment being seen and being recognized.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

It was like the European Cup, you know, you're just lifting that for for so many people. Yeah. Uh Himanshu, how how how were how were your feelings? Because the thing is, you knew right?

SPEAKER_03 24:29

So you knew everybody else was like, ah man, today's the day, and you could so you were must I don't know how you kept so composed.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

It must have been so tough. It was perhaps the the the easiest ceremony in last four years was the one we've got to look done. Otherwise, the all three you were always on your seat, you know, uh on the edge of your seat, and you don't know what's gonna happen, and you're praying, not to see yourself in one stars or two stars. As a bit ambitious, you always feel that uh you know there's a scope of going ahead going um going up. Um but then still it it was a different feeling to to to the moment where we got to know in the restaurant. It's a completely different feeling to be able to receive it in front of so many people, in front of so many friends. Yeah, like that one day uh I didn't tell Liam because like Liam, I have so many of friends, it's hard to miss out on one. Yeah, yeah. So even Courtney wasn't aware, even Liam wasn't aware. So it's just because when I was when I wanted to tell my wife, they were they were not they were skeptical about it, but then I said it's it's my wife. Yeah, then she said, you know, then uh they made my wife sign the NDA also because my wife came to the restaurant when they were still there. Yeah, so you I understand that it was that has to be that strict, sure. Uh, but then it's a different kind of emotion. It's like uh as I said, it's like 20 years of all the people who've supported, not supported, they were in that room and still praising. Uh so that was a different feeling. And that's that's the reason why you why you see me celebrating like that. Otherwise, I'm yeah, yeah, I'm not really that kind of a person who shows emotion emotions in in public. But then I couldn't hold myself.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

It was absolutely the right thing to do. Yeah, 100%. It was a brilliant evening, and um I just remember uh the entire media landscape and the buzz around you know, I want to ask you also what what sort of for from for both of you what happened during the sort of uh the months or or days afterwards when it came to to obviously yourself, Imancho, but also Liam for you when it came to writing and also hearing different sort of news outlets or journalists when it came to having this phenomenal accolade happen.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

I mean, I think in India there is still not great sense that what has happened. There it was a big news for a week, and uh but I f still feel that a lot of people in India still are not aware with the Michelin guide. Right. And I mean in the in this time of social media everybody has an opinion. And until and unless the guide will come to India, people will not understand what it means, you know. Sure. People don't know the history of the chefs who've been retain who've retaining their three stars for over 50 years, you know. So they don't and they don't understand the gravity of it. I think people in the industry they know it, but people who are not in not part of the industry will not don't understand still what it means. And it's it's a struggle, you know. They don't understand what is 50 best, how it works. It's completely different to Michelin guide, but it's very difficult to make them understand that this is something big which has happened. Okay, okay. So I I think the whole effort after that is and I don't want to force it on the people also that you know we are chest thumping and saying, okay, this is a big thing. It's a no, but we think we still think that uh we've always kept uh trusting studio growth very organic. It is never really pushed upon. Uh it has always maintained that low profile also. Uh so I think it's it's the right direction. There is going to be a point where people will start to understand this even a bit more. I mean, there is better understanding than before, but I still think there is a long way to go because uh there is a bit of television, there is a bit of uh the restaurant industry, the street food industry, people are like very protective to their cuisine, like how it's in Italy also. So a fine-line restaurant it does not really resonate easily with the common middle class Indian families, you know, because they've never experienced a restaurant like this. So it's very difficult to resonate that what is the achievement. Uh so it will happen, it'll slowly happen. And I think uh book is also a right direction in that sense to give a text uh circulate around the world to tell a story of a restaurant uh which has made India proud.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

And Liam, for you, during that time, obviously the news spread. What were your thoughts and also what were you hearing from journalists? What did you have to what were you writing about? How how and because you also you're at the same time pushing that incredible message of food and culture, and uh you know you've known Himanship for a long time. You've you've known the restaurant since the very beginning to where it is now. So uh what happened during that time?

SPEAKER_06 29:37

So I think uh for me it really meant three things. One was personal someone uh second one was someone who writes about food in Dubai, and third was the co-author of the book. And so the first one was just a a tremendous sense of pride meets relief for the restaurant because there have been evenings seven years ago, eight years ago, where uh when we're at the Velka Hotel where I've been the the only one sat inside of the restaurant, right? Um and that was just me, and night after night, you know, this this was happening in in the beginning at Treson Studio, and so to less than ten years later get three stars as sort of the soft hand of acknowledgement on your back going, you were right, it was worth it, and to be seen, and I think that's that's really important. I think as someone who writes about food and food culture here in Dubai, you know, I've been evangelical about the restaurant, you know, for for years. Um and I think a certain amount of cynicism and bias can be perceived of you in that sense as a writer, going, oh, you know, you just love what they do, da-da-da-da, you know, all that sort of stuff. And so when the restaurant gets three stars, there's also a bit of a message to the public to go, no, we saw like we've seen this restaurant, you know, this this is genuinely one of the best. You know, you there's what 180 were you 183rd three-star restaurant in the world or something like that. 150 something. Right. That few, right, you know, currently in the world right now, and and and Trezor Studio is one of them, right? And so I think that as a as a kind of cementing status to go, no, these guys are different, right? And and and this just embodies that. And then I think thirdly, we were um we've been working on this for about two and a half years, right? Um, and so when the three stars happened, I think we were we were coming up to the two-year mark, or we were at the two-year mark when it was happening. And so I think maybe like a lot of things in in when happens when you get three stars. I remember the first time I came to the restaurant after you got the three stars, and and we were, I was there with my laptop to do the editing. And there was a certain lens now looking at the book, because you you realise that the book now, it always meant something, but now it means something else, and that's just what three stars do, right? In in that sense. And so I think for us, it was for me, it was more about okay, so now what is this book gonna say? Now what is this book gonna do? Do we have to go back and look at this in a different way now? Do we need to articulate something a little bit more sharply, you know, and and and all that sort of stuff, right? Because I think there's the there's the ambition of being the challenger brand, but then there's also the defensive bit now that you have three stars, prove it. And it's like everything that you do and everything that you touch, prove it in in the food, in the book, in service, like, you know, and all those other sorts of things. And so I think that that became an interesting pivot point, whereas like, you know, is this now a three-star book as well? Like in in that sense. So but that was that was my view, you know, after the news happened.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

So take me then to how did the whole idea about writing the book come about? Because if it was in the planning of two and a half years before you obviously received the stars, yeah, you know, there was what were the the the the chats, how who who approached who? That's what I want to know.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Now so we were cooking. Sorry, uh we were doing a collaboration with uh a restaurant called Bombicanteen. Um and as part of our uh collaboration series, we always uh bring a restaurant from India uh to do a collaboration with us at Reson Studio. And I'm a big fan of Chef Hossein who runs Bombicanteen now Papa's, which is just more like a studio, his kind of studio. Um and uh and as part of uh the journalist who comes and visit uh in this collaboration, uh Manuel and Thomas, who is our uh international PR, uh they have proposed Emily, uh who's the editor of uh Fire and Books, uh, to come and experience uh the collaboration as well as our menu. So the idea is yes, to pitch a book to her uh to make her eat and experience uh the restaurant itself, spend some days with us, uh, see the collaboration also and how it works. So it's morely to make her understand that what the restaurant is all about, what are we offering in terms of food? Uh and then it was it was like discussed already before she arrived that this is the agenda for her to come. And then after the collaboration, uh she said, I would like to sit with you for a couple of hours to understand if there's a story, uh, what is the journey you've been on. Um and trust me that two-hour discussion was usually three, four hours. Wow. Uh me, Anya, who was also helping us uh in this book, uh proposing this uh making the proposal for the book was helping us. Uh so three of us sat and chat for just hours and hours, and it was very emotional. It was like it was like a podcast, but there is so much uh it was like me interviewing for a book, you can say that, but for her to understand if if this interest because if you see Fiden books, uh they have not really done enough with Indian restaurants or Indian chefs. Uh and I am a big uh bookkeeper, I love collecting books, so I'm a big fan of Fiden books, so it's always on my uh like in my bucket list to be able to do, and there's a different story for that I will tell you again in some time. But uh, but then we sat and uh like she interviewed for like uh three, four hours asking me many questions, and basically she wanted to understand my personality, my outlook, uh the the st understand the story of the restaurant uh because she's eaten the food so she understands that the food is is is good, is is solid. Uh and then uh and then she asked us to make a proposal. In the proposal, she's asked us to write let's say 10 pages as if we are writing a book, uh if not 10, something like that, and then uh three recipes with three pictures. Uh and then it took us around 10-15 days to work on this kind of proposal. In that phase, Liam was not involved uh because we were not sure that the book is going to happen. Um, and then uh I think it was even though the book is written by Liam, it's narrated through Liam's uh creativity and uh and his words and vocabulary, but that's the first time I kind of did it on my own, the first 10 pages. Uh it was very interesting, it was in written in very simplistic words, uh, but it's for Emily to present it to the board uh members, you know, like the team on board with the bookmaking. And um and at that point uh we were actually in um we had one star, we were actually in Valencia for 50 best restaurants. It was like our first time being in top 50. Uh and then we got 11th position in the first edition of being in top 50 in the world's 50 best restaurant. So also that that uh became like a big push. Uh like in the middle of proposal, we had to ask her to change the accolade section of being 11th best in the world, uh, has one Michelin stars. So, and then we did the proposal, um, it was quite interesting, and then we got a reply saying that the team is very interested to do a book, and then they've given sort of guidelines, and uh the contract was massive, you know, in terms of um small detailing technical, like uh I would I should have run the contract through Liam. Uh but uh but yeah, legal team went through it, it's it was a massive contract. We signed it off, and then and then the hunt began is just how we're gonna do it. Uh um I I initially thought maybe I've done so good that I could do it myself, but no. Uh they said no, you don't you can't do it yourself, you need to have someone uh who can who can help you guide you and uh can actually put your voice in words. Um and then I literally thought of two people. Uh the first one uh was uh David Constable uh and Liam, and then we've also thought of Mr. Weev Sangvi because he's uh he's Indian. Uh Mr. Sangvi was Indian and he's seen my journey also for a very long time and is a seasoned journalist, also very popular in India. But somehow things didn't work uh with uh with everyone. Uh the possibility of working with David was uh when he was not in Dubai, uh he was still in UK. Uh so I I we thought that the maybe the distance could be a problem. Uh this needs a lot of uh attention back and forth, and I couldn't think of anyone else than Liam, also to be honest. He was, I would not say I wanted I'm being honest to you. It's always nice to have an Indian uh voice to it. Yeah, uh but then uh Mr. Sangvi uh things didn't didn't work out with him, but then what are the options after that? Uh the option is this that a person who understands us more like Mr. Sanghi, and it doesn't matter if it's Indian or if it's not Indian. If we we know Liam, who's been coming to us as a paying guest for over many years, and uh from uh good feedback to to not so good feedback, uh uh like he's been uh uh like always been very uh truthful in what he felt uh in the dining room. Um and he's been supportive, supportive in that sense that he's given feedback and he's willing to come back again to see if things have moved in the right direction. And that should be the case because we've always thought feedback in terms of people who go out are very important, and for people who go out occasionally also is very important because there are two different perspectives for one who's dining out on occasions and to one who's dining out for for his own personal hobby. So for me it's been very important, and that's how we grew in life, also that we and we still take feedback from our diners, and we still kind of do brainstorm on it, and we still work around it. So, and I think but also I knew Liam is a lawyer and he's uh he's uh he's busy, but I've been a big fan of his uh of his uh Substack, uh what was Eat GoC uh the page uh uh what do you call it? Website websites, yes. Uh blogs like uh and I'm a big fan. Like I know his writing is a bit witty, and uh I mean it's you don't get bored when you are reading Liam. Uh you always want to read more and more. Uh so that was my always like the moment he used to put something on his blog, I was probably the first five people who would go on and read it because first thing you'll get a clear idea of the restaurant he's talking about. You I know that for the fact that he's gonna go out and do his rise right judgment without being biased or without being too critical, also. Um so I've always been a fan of his uh of his words. Uh and then I think uh I've asked Courtney first. Or I asked you. No. Which one? On the writing? On the writing. I asked you. Yeah, I asked you. I think Courtney was not on board uh as yet.

SPEAKER_06 41:12

No, no, no. No, no, no. Courtney's here, guess. Behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

But it was it was a great thing to learn. I because I came September?

SPEAKER_05 41:23

Uh September 24th.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Yes, we were we were a year deep at that point. Yeah, I think Hina was involved. Uh she she was one of our um um like dear members in our team who was involved in the restaurant operations, used to do a bit of marketing communication for us. At the same time, she was willingly willingly wants to help for the book also. Yeah. Um so yeah, we've and then I think I just picked up a phone, asked Liam to to be on a call, and then I didn't tell him much about uh it on the phone, and then he came in the restaurant. Um I think he liked the idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:02

So what yes, so you know, Himanshu asks you to co-author his book to basically monumentally put his journey into this beautiful book, yeah, one of the biggest publishing houses in the world. At any point, was there any pressure?

SPEAKER_06 42:20

Uh yeah, so I was selling a car and to Bizzle at the time, um, and I was negotiating to try and get more money uh on on the sale of an eight-year-old Kia. Um and yeah, he managed to look, there's this idea, we're we're it was sort of like you know, like like when a cat needs a blanket, sort of like a feeling, sort of see. And I was I mean, I was uh incredibly excited at the idea of it, but at the same time as also going, I have a full-time job, my wife is six months pregnant. Like, you know, like all that there was all these sorts of things that are sort of going through my head.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Um And it would be your first time being in an author.

SPEAKER_06 42:57

It'd be the first time it'd be the first time doing a book, right? And and so but it was it was one of those things where two things sort of went through my mind, and that is um when I say yes to stuff, I normally then just make the world around me make it happen, right? In in that sense, so I'm going to do this. What's going to have to change or you know, in order to accommodate and and make this happen. Um and the other thing was and it's a bit selfish, but there's no way I I wanted the book to go out, but there's no way I wanted the book to go out and not be associated with it. Right in that sense, because I I believed in the restaurant so much, I I believed in Him and Shu so much, and um I knew it would I would be so proud to see the book on the shelf and and I would you know promote it to anybody anyway and things like that, but it would crush me inside a little bit, right, if if I'd let the moment pass at the same time. And sometimes you know, life's like that, right?

SPEAKER_04 43:47

You just have to grab the horns when it's put things into context in terms of time management. Your wife was six months pregnant, you were moving house, I remember. Yeah. Uh renovating an Italian house. Yes, right? Uh I changed job recently. And you'd also decided to slightly challenge yourself to write this book. Yes. So you did make it happen. Yeah, we made it happen.

SPEAKER_06 44:12

We made it happen.

SPEAKER_04 44:13

So once Liam then agreed to do it, what was the process thereon in?

SPEAKER_02 44:20

I think uh we need to um uh Emily asked us uh to write another 10 pages, okay, another set of recipes uh to to see Liam's uh writing. Um and then we started spending some more time. Uh we wanted to keep our best foot forward. Uh also we propose Shresh uh as a photographer because he's also a longtime partner with us. He's doing uh food shots for Treston Studio and Avatara and uh and we believe in his talent and uh and then we make a collective proposal. Also, Shresh has never done a cookbook, so it was also his debut book. So three of us was nothing to do with books in our lives. Uh, blindly blind, suddenly being uh tied together. Yeah, so we wanted to put our best foot forward and we spent actually uh actually more time in doing the first draft of like a mini book, I would say, uh, is to propose it to them, and you know, fingers were crossed that uh that that they would love it. Uh but there's a funny story that when the draft came, it it looked like as if it's uh examination paper with all the red crosses and signs and oh so because the Fiden has his own uh set of rules, right?

SPEAKER_04 45:42

I think they're they must be very strict.

SPEAKER_06 45:43

Yes, right? And we didn't have the publishing guidelines at that time. Right. So so we you know we didn't know about how certain things are supposed to be supposed to be written. Which is probably also very smart on their part, right? Because you kind of go in cold, and I think they probably want to see what the raw material looks like. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

So you had the uh initial feedback, yes. Right. Feedbacks like it were.

SPEAKER_06 46:06

And those chapters are in the book now. So the book the chapters that we so they weren't test buttons, they were they were pages that are in the book now. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:13

Okay. Okay. So then after that initial beautiful feedback, you took it on board. Yes. And then what was the plan?

SPEAKER_02 46:25

The plan was uh was Liam's plan. No, but before I before I tell you, uh I think uh the book uh in terms of commitment being so busy himself, right? What should be the way that I should be the one chasing him uh to do a lot of things? It was the other way around. It was it was most of the time Liam was way ahead on his schedule and he's chasing me back, saying, When are we doing this? When can I come? Uh can we do this on phone? And he's he's gonna make uh try to make it as comfortable for me because he knows that I'm in operations and sure I uh sometimes I have to be there, I cannot just miss it out. And and then he said, No, you can do the you can send me voice notes, you don't need to write, uh WhatsApp is fine. And and most of our commun communication started with just being sending voice notes on WhatsApp. Right. Uh is because he was really busy for uh for certain reason being a lawyer, he has like some uh everyday things big project. Yes. Uh he's dealing with companies. So so I think it's Liam who who whose commitment was absolutely important to finish the book on time. Otherwise, it would have been very difficult for me to work with anyone else, for example, and that's why I think people we didn't end up working with. I understood that it's easier to work with people who first understands you and second is willing to give his hundred percent. And I think in that case, uh a book with any other author would have been still in designing phase, I would say, uh, is because a lot a lot was happening in the restaurant with a lot of collaborations, with a lot of me cooking out. Um every day there's someone important walking into the restaurant, and then I have a young daughter also at home. I have to spend time at with my family, and you know it's you get one day off, stuff like that. But I think uh we've we've spent a lot of time at Naquil Mall. Yeah, coffees, yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:34

Accountless, I'm sure. Arabica after service, yeah. So even after service, yeah. After service, uh one in the morning we'd start editing.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Yeah, like mid-service also, like between three to five. And sometimes I have to skip service, also is because this we are on the deadline, so we had to uh give them back um something to be on like give them back things to be on uh on schedule. So yeah, but uh but a lot of conversations on on on the telephone, a lot of WhatsApp. Um the other thing is that I'm not a very tick uh person with technology, so I don't use any laptop till today. I always use my phone, yeah. And you won't believe all the recipes were being typed on the phone.

SPEAKER_04 49:21

Oh my lord.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 49:24

Taking screenshots, sending to each other all the sort of voice note.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

All the recipes were like amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was this moment I was doing actually all of this on the notes. Yeah. Uh and I'm the reason why I was doing this is because I was more convenient, like I felt more comfortable doing it. I'm a bit more faster doing it on the phone because I've always used it. So I thought, let's go with it, you know, it's convenient, you know. When we were doing recipes also in the kitchen, it was always beaming on the phone, you know. There are like three drafts of the recipes on my notes, and there was this one moment where the the initial first ten recipes, what we supposed to give, uh, with the with the text, and I was doing it on the notes, and for some reason I deleted the note. And it gave me such a shock of my life, and you know, I couldn't know how to retrieve those notes. They said, no, I kept the because I was uh I was uh doing cut copy in a lot of places, sure. So I just cut the whole thing. So the document name was there, it's just the text which was which went missing. And I had I called Apple support and everything just to ask, is there a way to retrieve this? If you have deleted the document itself, then there is a way to retrieve it. There is no way you can retrieve the text inside it. So I just it just freaks me out, and I kept on doing uh uh up and down like I freaked out, man. Yeah, but then there is for some reason I just um uh for some reason it came back again. Uh it was a big sigh of relief because uh I checked with the uh like webs on Google and they said you shake your phone on notes to to undo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah very good. I kept on doing it. I kept on doing like this. Shake it. Somehow with this way or the other way, I don't remember it now. I was surgeon and then it came back. Like a surgeon. It came back and um it was a big moment and uh big joke also. Uh but still I was so consistent with being on the phone that I decided that okay, I'll make multiple notes, and in that time I was sending everything to Liam also, and she was doing it in the drive.

SPEAKER_04 51:47

So this season of the Chef JKP podcast is brought to you by Valrona, the French chocolate house that's been inspiring chefs and created for over a century. Valrona isn't just chocolate, it's perfectly crafted from bean to cover. Every flavour, aroma, and texture is shaped with precision, passion, and purpose. Whether you're baking, tasting, or simply indulging, Valrona's approach is simple. Extraordinary ingredients treated with extraordinary care. Valrona elevates every experience. For more information, head over to valrona.com forward slash Valrona, Middle East, Africa and India. Now back to the episode. So then so then how did it work in terms of of the structure of the book? Because you know, you obviously have uh different chapters in there. Uh so I also want to understand was the the the the sort of the whole thing written first before the shots, or were you doing the shots in parallel together, the food shots? How did it work?

SPEAKER_02 53:01

Uh shots, food shots were much later. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 53:04

Yeah. So you you have to basically submit the full draft first. Yeah. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_06 53:09

Yeah. So uh the book maybe to describe the book a little bit as well for the for people listening. So there's uh there's uh your normal kind of acknowledgments and intros and and things that lead up, and you have to give the reader context, right? Because there will be readers who don't know this restaurant, there'll be readers who don't know me or Himanshu or anything like that, right? And so you have to you have to sort of feed them and funnel them in. Then what's the ethos of the restaurant? And there's there's one, I think, really important chapter in the book on that. Um and then what the book does is that it it it in structure mirrors essentially the the way that the menu is structured as well, too. We've got these sort of five colony regions as defined by Trezend Studio, it unpacks what those regions mean to the restaurant, so it's not it's not uh a Wikipedia entry, it's not National Geographic, it's as a kitchen, as a chef, as a restaurant, here's how we look at this enormous stretch of land, right, across this across this subcontinent, and here's what we take from it, right? And so it's it's very much it's very personal through the lens of the restaurant. You've got your recipes, right? The recipes are um I think what we've done, which is to my mind, I think is really great, is you've got your kind of normal recipes as you would expect in a book. But then there's one recipe that's emblematic of the region that kind of stands out more, it's put more on a pedestal. Um, and those are some of the recipes that I think the restaurant's very well known for as well, too, um, which has a nice synergy, um, but also I think helps to unpack the region a little bit further. And then you've got your pantry items and indexes at the end, so you know, all those kinds of things, right? So with that in mind, kind of going back to your question, we started really well, we had to do the pieces we had to do for Fydron, which was a little bit of each, in order for them to kind of see that we could write a recipe and we could, you know, write about um a region. But I think we really started kind of writing about the regions more in that sense, and and then the the the recipes were were coming later. The recipes were more towards the end of the book, um and and writing the recipes. Um and then and then we kind of went back to the beginning as well, too, right? And sort of well, how do we do how do we do the in introduction? So we wanted to write the meat of the restaurant, and we wanted to write the meat of the recipes, and then almost go back and do the introduction in a way to go, how are we going to contextualize what we've just done over the last two years, right, or the last year, right? Because because I think one thing that maybe we foresaw is that you think you know the journey that you're going to go on, and then there's the journey that you actually go on, right? And so better to write the intro later, kind of in the in through hindsight, than go prospectively, this is what we're going to do.

SPEAKER_04 55:37

Okay. So look, before we we talk about the title and all of all of those sorts of things, there there was a mini book that was launched just before this came out. And as if by magic, it just so happens. Oh, oh no. That I that I have it here, and um I'm gonna I'm gonna get uh I'm gonna get you, Liam, to read this. Yes. Oh that's so here, yeah. All right, so you have this beautiful rising India book, and and anyone anyone who knows me, like a geek, I've kept menus for the past sort of 25 years. I've got all your old menus. And and there's a foreword here by by your good self. So if I may, if you could just read this out loud. Because it's such a beautiful foreword.

SPEAKER_06 56:23

When we was this 2022?

SPEAKER_04 56:25

Yes. About then. 23, actually. Twenty-three, when you had already two stars. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 56:29

Ah, okay. Um really, so this is this is a live reading. All right, okay. Um so she charms and allures with a mystique that unfolds before you. You don't see it all at once, but as revealed over time, her greatness is felt by those who know her, for she is loved. Wise with eyes that bore witness to centuries, she represents many, a polyglot, she speaks many languages. She sees in colour, her body is strong and tall, her head adorned with blossoms, rich with the scent of wild leaves and woody spice. Her skin's glossy, the colour of tamarin. Her sandy feet travel far, leaving footprints that others have followed, arms cradled by civilizations stretching east to west, connecting beyond her reach, arms that brought in strangers and gifted the world with her touch, her heart beats with enlightenment, and many know her before they've met her. She's familiar, but with depths requiring a lifetime to explore. Her name is India.

SPEAKER_04 57:22

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Because also, what's really gorgeous about this is that you also have the sort of different chapters and different places, you know, of India and the landscape. And it's almost as if you have that sort of feel here to the book. So once everything was, let's say, or the draft was submitted and Feiden were happy, I would say, right? Along with their guidelines and that kind of thing. Then you had the pressure, internal pressure, I would say, to make sure that the food shots were as beautiful. Yeah. And that process again, was it a seven in the morning thing or was it after service? How did that work?

SPEAKER_02 58:05

It was uh in the afternoon always, between 12 o'clock till five o'clock. Um, and then we've also kind of divided it into phases that we will do uh like five shots uh in a week, and then we have to send a few shots for Emily to review it, also for the team to review it. Uh a lot of different backgrounds, there are a lot of uh uh detailing in terms of uh I cannot use white plate on a white background, and I cannot use black on black. Right. So it has to have um the dish needs to stand out, the dish needs to be clicked from two angles, one a top shot, one from 45 degree angle. Uh so it was it was a bit challenging. I think photography also take uh took a lot of time uh because also in the food, when you do photography, uh you want a dish to be visible because in a restaurant, when you plate a dish, sometimes you want to camouflage a dish with leaves and flowers and stuff like that. But in terms of book, if you do if you're doing that too often, then you're just seeing leaves and flowers, you are not seeing the dish itself. So that you realize when you're doing it more and more that you need to highlight a dish in a way where where a reader can understand that's how it's being layered, also, how it's being plated. Um otherwise there's a bit of a disconnect. Uh so we've done like multiple sh um backgrounds, and I've uh we've used Charles also, who is our resident artist, and we asked him to uh paint canvases with different kinds of backgrounds. There are most of them are used here also in this book, which was I think a great idea to utilize uh Charles skills also to make a background which doesn't exist. You know, it's make something unique of our own. Uh so I think it's a fun it's uh it was a fun shoot, but very tedious, very laborous. Uh, because you think that you have taken a good shot, but a feedback would come and they will ask you to do it again. Oh really?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

They would say that the plate was not right, you cannot use uh with a plate with shadows, the lighting was not right. Um so it's just that sometimes you have to downplay, even though we've got some great plates to show off, but then sometimes you have to downplay because in a picture it's not making sense. In a picture, sometimes a plate is too flashy, then the food, uh, or can be other way around. So so you have to sometimes make peace with uh the dishes also. I will not say that I'm there are there are certain dishes with the pictures. There could have been better pictures for uh for Instagram, for social media, but not for books. Right. So there are two different kinds of photography. I'm I know photographers know, but for general public, uh the food photography is completely different. Uh it's a different experience where you have to showcase the preparation, uh, the the simplicity also sometimes without there being too too much of props around it, uh, because then you're taking it away from the dish. Uh but I think working with Shresht uh was also so comfortable that since we work for so many years, he understands what I need. And once he understood the direction also from the guidelines, we were very fast. But then the pressure was again when something comes back, and there are dishes which are not in the cooking cycle of the restaurant. We're talking about 60 recipes here, right? And the sub-recipes. Sub-recipes are easy, but then the dishes which are not in the cooking cycle, they've we used to make them before, and then to order the ingredients and make them from scratch, and then so you've we've done probably all the dishes at least three or four times in terms of recipes, like when you once you're doing yeah, yeah, and sometimes you get a little bored with it, also is because you're seeing the same recipes, you're seeing the same uh and it's been stretched across almost two, three years now. Uh and Liam and me probably perhaps must have visited each page 300 times, if not more. Yeah. Uh there is no pain in your face, Liam, when you say it. No, but in terms of I think recipe reading recipes were a bit monotonous, but I love reading the stuff between the recipes. That's the thing which I can read on over and over again because that's such well-written uh text. Uh, even the regional text in the book are not, as he said, is not Wikipedia, is not uh is not National Geographic. It's taken out of context of the dishes, like how we do it in the menu, also. In the menu, when we go with the map of India and we explain the region, we are not giving you any random information which has nothing to do with the dish. We only tell you the information which are relevant which are relevant to the dishes which are coming to your table. So even in the book, it's like that. It can be a book, this big book, just on the regions of India. There's so much of information, there's so much to talk about, but we have to be true to the uh to the recipes, is because people are going to read the chapters first and then they're going to see the recipes. So when they see a bit of description on the top of the recipe, that why it's being thought of, what is the the reasons, then you can understand the story written in the regional text and the description of the dishes and hence the recipe also. They're all interlinked in that fashion that people understand them better and not just reading a random and that's why the topic of the the name of the book becomes a big challenge. Sure. So so let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:37

So so the title itself is The Rise of Indian Food. Now you would have both of you, of course, would have had your you know I I can imagine maybe 10, 20 different titles to go through. I'm not sure. And then you of course had to run this through Feydon. So tell me about the process just for the title, please.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:00

Okay. Um so we uh there were a couple of titles that were thrown out, and Fiden had come to us, I think, towards the end of the first prop, there's there's a time when you submit the full manuscript, right? Right. And so they they had only seen uh maybe a manuscript about eight months or ten months before, and then we're sort of left to kind of get on with with writing the rest of the manuscript. They give you guidance in the beginning and then off you go and you write it. And then as we were coming towards the submission date, they were saying, okay, what do you think about titles? Right. And we had put forward um a few titles, largely mirroring the the name of the menu now, right? And and so it felt like a good kind of continuity of of what's on the what's in the restaurant today. Um Fiden had had come back, and I think they'd quite sensibly given us some guidance on on this in terms of what's going to work, because um if you think about it, look, Feiden are very smart, they sell books and they sell books very well, right? And what you want is you want the thing that you've been working on for two and a half years um to be accessible to people uh and for them to be able to find it, right? And so if you come up with a kind of abstract um or you know, it doesn't uh doesn't lend itself to being discovered easily type of title, um then your book may not be successful, right? At least not in commercial terms, right? It may not actually shift, it may not actually sell. And so nowadays to sell books is to sell online, right? And it's it's to sell in in Amazon, it's to sell in all these other sorts of places. And so you need to be able to have a title of a book so that when people are either searching for the book or they're searching for the subject matter of the book, it has to find itself. And so I think that's where it you know it landed in a practical way where you know Trezent Studio had to be in the title, quite obviously. Um, Indian food should be in the title, quite obviously, and of course, you know, hand him and shoe as well, right? Yes in that sense. And so the I think from a kind of business perspective, the title is the way that it is now in order to really kind of pick up on those different things. People are gonna hear about Trezent Studio and they'll and they'll search for it and the book will come up, right? Whether it's an Amazon or maybe you just search for in Google and the book will come up, right? If you're looking for an Indian food. The book will come up. This is just how the world works now.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

Okay. No, for example, like the reason we couldn't do rising India, as you said, is just to explain a bit further that they felt that it can be misleading for people to not perceive this as a cookbook. Yeah. Trescends tressend itself is not a very Indian word. Right. And studio will make it sound more like an architectural outlook. So that's why they've given us few words that Indian food must be there. Recipes, restaurant name. So we've done like I think 20, 25 names back and forth. And at one point of time I was so confusing because then you then you are confused because there are 20 options, and then me, Courtney, Liam, Emily, four of us was discussed at least over two calls of uh what it should be, and then we've given them three options that we were happy with, these three, and then they picked one which were so they picked the final one. Which we were also we proposed. Okay, cool. We proposed two or three options, and then they said, Okay, we are happy with we are happy with this.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:09

Okay, perfect. So before we get into the actual book itself, uh Himanship, earlier on you were you were saying how much of a bookworm you are when it comes to cookery books and how you've you know you've always had sort of Feiden titles in your library. Yeah. But what was the story you wanted to tell me about Fiden and being in a book?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

Uh not generally with Feydin, um because there was a moment in 2017, maybe. Uh went for India for a small surgery, and then um we used to have this uncle in our uh neighborhood in Delhi, uh, who is a good like an astrologer, you know, he's predicting things and he's like a very well-studied guy, like uh very experienced also. And he told me in 2017, uh he said, You will write a book uh in future, and he said this is the best time to start with it. So he said, do one thing, take a piece of notebook and just write anything on it which determines that you've started a book today and just keep this with you till the point you start writing, you start writing in this book only. So he made me write in an empty notebook, made me buy a new notebook, made me write it on it. That I just wrote my book and I wrote the date, and it's still in my deli house. So it's it's also something which is you've already manifested that that it's happened already. I've started it already in 2017. I started it, and it's going to be published in 2026. So nine years ago, I've I said my book. I remember. I couldn't think of anything else. I said my book. It doesn't make sense. No, but when I did it, and you say it's superstition, it's etc. etc. I'm a believer in it, but I still didn't think that it will happen. Uh maybe I thought in the later stage in my career. Uh but then there are people who get it right.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:18

And uh anyhow, there is we're fortunate enough now to have a copy in front of us. But when you when when everything was signed off, Fiden were happy, food shots happy, everything aligned, and then you received the first copies in your hand physically, how was that to open your own book?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:44

I mean, there's a different feeling to see a book on the system, uh, to see a draft on the system, to feel it in the hands. Even the colours of the picture, even how it feels uh is is very important. We've been we've kept uh both of us probably have the manuscripts. Yes. Uh several copies copies. Just in case it gets lost. Yeah, you shake it and then you come back. But it's uh it's a different feeling. Um to see it in real. As you as I said, I love I have a great collection of books. I've learned it from Chef Manish, and uh I have read it with the physical copy at least ten times now. I mean not the recipes, but the kind of text I want to uh I really like reading it. Uh forwards also are done amazingly written. Who wrote the forward? Uh Chef Masimo Batura and Chef Manish Marotra was my mentor. So I think the two most important persons in terms of the chefs in my life, uh they have kind of uh done like it's unreal, man. It's is to understand their perspective on a guy who like especially Chef Manish, because he's also seen me like a raw guy coming out of college. Uh and probably he's never told me all this kind of stuff, what he's written here. Uh and even Chef Massimo, because we we know each other, but we never I ne we never spent so much time for me to understand how he looked at the restaurant and how he looked at me. And it's amazing to and of course how Liam, you know, when we started doing the book and we need to write the introduction of the book, I think Liam and we just chatted uh like for hours. Yeah, he wanted to know my story from the beginning. Um so even that bit is is something which I could read over and over again because it just makes me feel so proud. I would have not thought that it could have been written in this way. Uh but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:48

But what I what I also love about the book as well is that one and one of my favourite books is White Heat by Marco Pierre White. Yeah, I can see that. And uh you've got the sort of black and white, also at the very beginning of the book, the shots of you, the team. Yeah, I think it's done absolutely beautifully. And and then of course, you know, you've got the different chapters, uh really gorgeous photography, yeah, yeah. But the way that the story is told is incredible. Liam, for you at the same time, uh putting all of these stories uh together, uh story how challenging was it really to to to because I I uh the way I'm asking you is because to be to tell uh such an amazing story, not just about Himanshu, but also the history of the food and the history of that culture is no mean effect. It's it's it's incredibly tricky. How much uh background um sort of research did you have to do? Obviously, not only did you listen to Himanshu's podcast here, but you also had to study him, spend time with him. Yeah. But to put it to put pen to paper, how challenging was that?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:08

That was that's a really great question because that presented itself in kind of different guises over time. So there's a and maybe to pick up on something that that Himanshu was saying earlier was that there were many challenges with this book, but the challenges didn't come from the team within it who were writing it. I think we had a bunch of people who knew each other and trusted each other a lot, but the circumstances that we were in were strange, right? And that's but we had each other, right? And and I think that that really helped. And I I think now looking back on it, imagine if you know you're commissioning a writer that you don't know, or you're working with oh, a photographer doesn't know you, and all this, and and that would have just brought a a level of complexity for three people doing something for the same time that you know I think um I'm glad we didn't have to deal with, um, to be honest with you. But and the reason that's important to to your question is that I think one of the things I was very conscious of that that Himanshu mentioned earlier is that I am not Indian, right? I have been to India many times before work. Um when this book started, I found myself wanting to go to India more. I felt a responsibility to do that, not necessarily because the ambition of the book was to tell the story necessarily of you know one of the largest subcontinents in the world and and of a billion people, but I think for me, in order to do justice to the book, there's you know, when you are a part of a culture, you also understand the texture, right, of what is in a society and food and and all those other sorts of things. And and I think I I had put a certain pressure on myself for that, right, in order to try and get this right. And in the first drafts of particularly the regional chapters, they were a bit Wikipedia-ish, right? They they were a bit National Geographic-ish, and and we would have those chats, and it was really about no, we're not trying to, you know, talk to people about the topography of the Himalayan region, because that's that's very easy to do, and that that probably feels very intuitive, but actually it's it's much more about let me tell you about stone fruit and let me tell you about these mild winters and things that happen. And and because people are having to forage and keep for long periods of time, the food therefore looks like this and that kind of stuff. And so when you're working with that, and that's how we use that as Trezent Studio. So the very first drafts of some of those regional chapters were I think the the consequence of my research trying to get comfortable with the subject matter, but then Himanshi was trying to get me comfortable to go, that's not that you're not being Attenborough on this, right? Not hit my words and his, right? You know, like you're not being Attenborough on this. It's it's it's much more like, you know, what's really important is to talk about tea, right? And and this is what because teas are very important to us, and that's why we have you know the the honeymoon tea course in the restaurant and those sorts of things. And and it's it's more about you know, and this this was a theme that appeared throughout in the book, and that is is the restaurant in service of the region, or is the region in service of the restaurant in in that sense, and that's this tension that sort of ebbs and flows back and forth in in the book quite a bit. Um and so I I think yeah, the the main challenge for me was where doing justice to this book and and to this story. Um Anchor and I had sort of probably almost a comical two or three kind of interview sessions, right, where we sat in the rush on this is someone that I've known for you know six, seven years at this point, but uh where I'm literally having to go, so where were you born, right? And and where did you go to school? And and just certain fact groundwork type stuff. And it was interesting because then I think I got to know him in a way that I hadn't seen or heard explicitly before in in that sense. And I think you could almost, and I was asking him questions where and and we would have conversations where I go, this is not going to be in the book, but I I kind of feel like I need to go down this garden path a little bit to understand you a little bit better. And then we would land at a point, and then I would put it, I would put something that came out of it in a draft, and I would highlight it and go, say whether you want to keep this or not. But I think this actually says a lot about you as a man and as a chef, and I think people also want to read these stories. It's it's not a contrived story. This this is really important. There's sections in here where Hermanchu is very vulnerable, and he's saying, you know, um, this is an area where I haven't done well in life, or this is the thing that haunts me and challenges me, and and because of that, that's why we are where we are. And I'm like, I think those are really important notes that people want to read in a book. It's it's not just, you know, I get up early in the morning and I do this. Lots of books are like that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

It's not just about understanding uh what other people can see easily, it's about understanding sometimes. He understands, I think, now more without me being saying anything, also. So it's that kind of uh love relationship, I would say, is that there are a lot of things now. He understands me more as a person than as a chef. He understood me more as a chef all these years. But writing this book probably understands me more as a chef, is because the there were conversations which are never going to be mentioned in the book, but they have set the tone for the book. Yeah, sure, sure. So that was I think that was I think very important.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:53

And Mr. Narth as well, too, right? Who's who's who's not here? Um but you know, him as a sort of patriarchal figure, if I can put it that way, in in the restaurant, because the the whole emb this is my perspective, but the the whole ambition behind the the Passion F and B group, which we cover in in um the chapter that that he speaks through, is that it's really about this mission statement of I think clarifying the position of Indian food in in the world, right, and and in cuisine. And and he talks in the book and says that you know there is this perception about Indian food being kind of like uh a monolith and it's very heavy and all these other sorts of things. And these were the conversations he had with fellow business people when he was traveling the world. But and actually that's a great shame. Uh, and and that doesn't really speak to actually the identity of Indian food, which is not a monolith, right? It's it's it's complex, um, and and the regions unpack that. Um, and for him as well, you know, his voice is also in the book, too, to be able to say that this is really what we're trying to achieve with this restaurant, right? This is what we're trying to achieve as a group and and as a chef, and with our menus and and everything else. And I think it's really about telling the stories of those people. So telling the story of the restaurant, telling the story of the chef, telling the story of the man behind the chef, you know, what is the group trying to achieve, all those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:07

Well, I think you you know I've I've read the book a little bit, uh, and I think you've both done a phenomenal job. And and again, it's not an easy thing to achieve. Uh I want to ask you, this is for the two of you, what have been your biggest lessons if knowing everything that you know now, what were the biggest lessons that you learned along the journey of writing this book?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:45

See, it's there are many decisions uh you have to make um for the book. Um the first important decision for me is is what kind of recipes do I want to share? You know, it it can have recipes which has lesser meaning to me, uh lesser personal for me. Should I go ahead and give those recipes or should I give the recipes which I really love and I want people to actually understand those recipes? Because I've seen books without naming any book, but I've seen books where recipes are not as important as it should be. Uh and here we I never stopped myself holding on to anything. You know, whatever I have, I have given it to this book. Uh in terms of uh there is no secret ingredient, there is no secret step. Whatever I knew, my team knew, we've put it forward. The only problem we've faced is scaling the recipe. Because when we we are talking about these small mono portions, like a bite like this, and I have to give recipe for four servings. But when we make it in the restaurant, it does we don't we never make it with four servings, you know. We make it like probably half a kilo, for example. But to scale down something from half a kilo to four pieces, four mono portions, there are recipes where the ingredients where the value will will almost be negligible. If something, if a recipe of 500 grams has three grams of something, how can I scale it down to four portions? Where will that ingredient go? Because if I'm scaling it down, it becomes point whatever percent. And it doesn't make sense being so so my learning would be that in a book like this, when you do a restaurant cookbook like Trash in Studio, I think it's very important not to do small monoportions recipes of like really tiny stuff where you can't scale down, especially spices, you know. There are spices which make sense of three grams being in 500 grams, sure, but it doesn't make sense with 2.1 gram or whatever. 25 grams if you are making if you're scaling it down. So my advice to myself in the future is that stay away from those recipes because people, when they're going to make it, if they are not hands-on in the kitchen, they will if they are want to follow the recipe thing by thing, they will might have a difference in the outcome of it. Okay. So recipes are always guidelines. You would know as a chef when you're cooking them, you have to improvise on so many things what kind of tomatoes you are using, what kind of water it is you are using. So there are so many things which can actually change the outcome of the recipe. Try to stay away from small recipes. But I think the other great thing which we have done in the book is to give out um some recipes of our amazing beverage program. Uh I think uh it's it's very uh amazing to have a program like this. We've made this program with Dom Karela, who's our long-term uh uh partner who's done all the consultancy for us in terms of uh the non-alcoholic pairing, the alcoholic synergy pairing we have in the restaurant. And Emily was also very excited when she tasted, when she's experienced this bar program, and she insisted on uh adding these uh recipes, which which again we thought uh we should not give too technical ones if it's too hard involving rotowap and stuff like that. But even we are finding it hard to explain it. Of course, yeah uh the the method. Um so I think that was my biggest learning in terms of uh the book. Uh the only other challenge which I face is that uh as we were moving ahead in two years' time, we have probably better recipes, like 10 more better recipes which came along. And we couldn't put that in the book because the the draft was already being planned. So you feel bad that this recipe could have been in this in this book because it has the potential, it could have replaced this recipe or it could have replaced that recipe.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:01

Um Liam, for you I I think there's two. So there's there's a more of a big macro one, and then there's there's the kind of you know, the only way out is through. Um but on the on the the big macro one, that is what's the story that you're trying to tell? Right? What is the what is the purpose of this book? And and I think Trezend Studio is not a monolith, and so that became that was just a constant recurring question. So we're trying to tell the story of um what's the purpose of this restaurant? What is it trying to achieve? Maybe that's evolving a little bit over time too, or becoming more nuanced. Um, what is the what is the outlook that we want to capture, right? And that kind of became a I would say a prism or a crucible for a lot of the decision making we did. Does this recipe go in? Do we tell that story? You know, do we involve this? Like that sort of, and and you just sort of go back to those guiding principles. And I think I'm much, I think I'm much more, maybe we're much more comfortable now with what that is and how that looks in a book when you're sort of trying to find footprints, because it's it's you have to make a billion decisions when you're when you're putting this kind of book together. And so having a kind of central tenants you can constantly just challenge everything through familiar tenants, um, I think really, really helps. The other thing, and the only way out is through, is the point right the the easier parts of the book were writing about the regions and the restaurants and you know and the ethos and that sort of the the bit that was completely unfamiliar, um where we probably went through the heaviest round of edits is writing recipes. Recipes are hard, right? So you can tell romantic stories about a region or or a chef or all that sort of stuff. But recipes are cold, right? They are methodical, they are dispassionate. Um, and you know, as someone who you know, I I was trained to cross-examine people. This is what I have to do. And and kind of like a lawyer. Like a lawyer, and and writing recipes kind of became that. And there were many times when we were sat in the restaurant, we were pulling people in from the kitchen and going, No, so with literally with your hands, show me what you're doing, like that sort of stuff, because then we have to talk about things like is a walk inverted? And then you go, Right, something is missing. And what was incredible, and really shout out as as a to the credit to the Fiden team, is that um as a part of the editing process, so they they get the manuscript, then they send us the notes back and they go, You must have done something at this stage in order to that you haven't told us, and then we would go back to the team and go, Did you do this to go, yeah? And so what happens is you have well-trained people in the kitchen who you know this, like you you're constantly churning out the same starter or dessert or whatever it is, and you you kind of forgotten what you know, and you just do it sort of automatically. It just it just autopilot and you do it, and then and so when I'm talking to you know a a stew chef or a head chef or someone in the kitchen, and and we're and like so tell me what you're doing and all that sort of stuff. They they've forgotten what they know.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:43

But the fact that that an editor who's on the second or third round was like, no, no, no, you've you've missed a step, this is what happens here, and then we go back and you're like, I mean the size of a mold with centimeters and inches and everything, so you have to we we initially had a problem to understand if this book is for professionals or if this book is for home cooks, because that can change how a recipe is being described. Right, yes. So if you are we were initially writing recipes, imagining if it's this is for professional chefs. Yeah. So we think that they would know few things. Sure. So we were not really mentioning them, assuming that a professional chef would understand what we're trying to say here. But no, we have to, as part of Feiden's process, we have to clearly mention each and every step, even if it's rhetoric, even if you have to do this 10,000 times in the book, which we were to like at one point of time we we started laughing. Uh, because what were the names we were discussing? Uh, you know, we should say this should be a name.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:43

Oh, yeah, yeah. There were certain phrases and things we had to we had to use in the book like over and over again. We're like, this is gonna become a band name or something like that. Like like medium hot, like this sort of stuff like you know, place place source button and you know get medium heat or something like that, or medium high heat, or the sort of. Leave leave one minute, you know, place on, and they'd be like, prep this reserve cover. And that was the other thing, is that we had to do things like um cover and put in freezer for up to one day, for up to three days. And these are things that you know when you're in a professional control.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:16

So every little detail. And you may not be storing stuff in kitchens, right? Because you just pack leave for three days.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:21

Yeah, and and VACPAC doesn't work for the for the home for the home chef, right? Or someone cooking at home. This these so that there's certain um what's it uh you've got it in um the thing that you use to cut the grapes. What's it the that you use in butcher shops, things like that? Uh gravity slicer. Gravity slicer. Imagine imagine going to a home cook and saying, so now bring the gravity slicer out of the pantry or start moving in.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:41

You would love used to cut grapes. Yeah. Thinly slicing grapes with the gravity slicer because uh we needed that. We tried doing it with uh mandolin, doesn't make sense. Yes, uh it needs to be. We do it with holding it with hand and somebody's doing it just like that. Right. Yeah. So uh how do you mention that in the book?

SPEAKER_06 1:29:00

Yeah, so uh and there's certain there's certain tensions because you want to make the book you want to make the recipes replicable for people, but at the same time, there is also certain mystery and stature and aura of being a three-star kitchen, right? Where it's like, no, there is a there is a rotary machine at the bar, and sorry guys, that's that's just how we make it. Like that that kind of thing, as opposed to just putting it in a jam jar and shaking it. Like it it doesn't work like that, right? So there's this constant tension, and there were ingredients that I might know them as one thing from Trinidad, and Himanshin knows them as something else from India, yeah. That the publishers in the US, but actually what the test kind of became um almost like the British housewife or something going to the supermarket, right? So, what would she know this ingredient as? And and so we we were constantly going around the revisions and the edits, being like, okay, and there's some ingredients where you don't call it that these days for kind of PR reasons, and so now we have to call it something else, right? Cafe lime. Cafe lime, right? So it's now Macroot. There's a story of Macruit Lime. You can't you can't write cafe lime.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:59

You have to write Macroot.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:01

Oh my god. I went into weight shows of spinnies the following week, and because I was like, what are they called? And I was like, it is Macroot. Like we've we've moved on. Yeah. Crazy. There was little things like so there were these there's these moments of um we have to make another edit, but then there's these moments of kind of like hilarity and joy where we were like, you know, this this is this is really funny, you know, we have to we have to do this now. But the editors were great. That they were great, they were teaching us along the way too.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:27

The the intricacies of of every recipe, then you know, the stories, and then the edits. And of course it made sense for you, but it's it's it's incredible to also know how detailed Fiden and their editors are to ensure that the book is essentially going to be a bestseller. Best or none.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:46

They're I mean, absolutely absolutely world class. Somebody, uh a freelance editor sitting somewhere in the world, right, has has read something and gone, you've missed a step. Yeah, yeah. Right. And and they haven't they haven't tried to replicate. They're not stood there like in the kitchen going, wait, I don't know where the wooden spoon is. Or they'll and when you do 100 rounds of editing something, they'll go, Oh, this is this is now missed, or this is hammer. Actually, you need to move that up here, or this and you're like, Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:11

You know, this says 1.25 centimeter piece of cinnamon stick. I mean, it in the original draft, it wouldn't be one point two five centimeter of cinnamon stick because this is what I'm saying. There are stuff you would imagine people to understand. Like in this recipe, there is two grams, two grams, two grams, two grams. Of course, we have to scale down the recipe. We cannot make the recipe for four people, it'll not taste nice. But then some people who will buy a book, yeah, I will advise them to please improvise where they can. This is just the guiding principles, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:43

But also the shots. And and you know, you say it's a three-star book, 100%, because the shots are incredibly technical. When you look at the detail of not just the recipes, but you look at the actual photos themselves, it's not only are they beautiful, of course, but you can really see the technicalities within the food and understanding that ah, so this is what it really takes to be at the very top of the top.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:06

Do you know what I mean? But Lex, for some time there is this one regret I have is to give away the recipe of the non souffle in this book. Not regret, is because uh it was just about a small trick. And uh when we when we uh put the recipe in this book, the dish has just been out. And in the last two years, there are people who said the reason why we come here because initially, yes, we want to try your restaurant, but we were super curious about trying this nan souffle. And now I feel that it was such a small trick that it's going to be less valued, you know. Don't get me wrong. Okay. Uh because uh there was a there is a small trick in the recipe. Uh it's not even though it sounds complex, when you read it, you will understand it, but you still need head to think about it. Sure. Uh but then it is again a very small twist to how we've achieved it.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:05

But buy the book to find out 6th of May, first.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:08

That's obviously, you know, the the other thing is that uh now the people who've actually the signed copies, there were 150 of them, uh, they were sold out in like two days. Uh that's the one which are reaching people now, and people are actually making the dishes, tagging me on the internet, and the first thing they're trying is the nan sofle.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:28

Ah, very good. So that that could be like a worldwide phenomenon, you know, like the Dubai chocolate. It'll be that'll be next. Imagine. You know? Hashtag but look, I have to say, I mean, you guys must be so proud of what you've done because this is just such a phenomenal thing to achieve. And and uh as we record this, we're we're in the middle of April, and by the time this comes out, it will be May the 6th, if I'm not mistaken. That's when the official release date of the book will be done. Um, and again, the amount of people involved, the intricacies, the hours from from not just from from Fiden, from yourselves, from the team. Uh it's a pure labour of love. I'm not going to ask you when the second one is coming out. No, not necessarily. Because, you know. Um, but there's one particular line, Himanshu, that I that I really love in the book, which is a quote from you which says, you know, we are not here to tear up the rule book, uh, so much as to find another page. Yeah. And I think that is such a beautiful quote because that is really what you have done. You know, you're not with with the recipes, and and and I've eaten, I've been fortunate enough to eat at Trestan Studio uh several times. Every single time I go there, I am blown away by the flavours, which are familiar to me in a way, but the way that they're executed, you really are turning another page, you know. So I'm just I'm very curious to know over the next few years how how it will carry on evolving because I don't know about Julian, but you know, from the first time we were at Voko Hotel, yeah, seeing what him and she was doing and uh to to then now, it's just for me and I'm I'm not saying this because he's in front of me or he's a friend, but he's one of the most exciting chefs in the world, yeah. You know, um and I'm I'm really proud to know you and and and to know how far you've pushed the team and yourself and and let's not forget you also have a life. Yeah, uh it's it's it's phenomenal. And and yes, of course you're giving your soul your your your soul away a little bit when it comes to the recipes, but the thing is with you, I know you that you're so creative, and you're always like bam bam bam bam bang, thinking, thinking, thinking. Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:59

Well, I mean, if I if I don't give away, I will not get the new ones. So that's the only thing I thought of. That nothing to hold off. But I think what you've said is all true, but I think that's the reason why I have this page being dedicatedly here. It's about my acknowledgement to all these people. Trust me, trust in studio get three stars, I get all the attention, I get to speak on the TV. But I think there is not a single person here. I have may I may have missed one or two by mistake, you know, it's such a long list of people. But I have mentioned everyone who was essential for this for this restaurant, starting from Mr. and Mrs. Narth. To everyone who worked before at President Studio was still working here. I mean, it's not just I cannot just say it's my ideas, yes, most of them are, it's my restaurant, yes, I work as if it's mine. But then each and every person who is mentioned in this book has such an important role to play that it's even one or two guys here and there would have made a few things a little different, I would say. So they are as important as me being in the restaurant. And Liam, I thank him for his all his time, his energy, his dedication, like his chasing up job on me, you know, to do things on time, and even Courtney for that matter. I think both of them arrived in my point in my in my life at that point where probably I needed them the most uh is just someone to always be excited about something, pushing me every day. Um like the reason why I lived up to uh Liam's uh pressure is because I know he's uh he means business, man. He's he's a serious guy, you know. Like so. Well it's not true what they say about him. So well the good the good stuff is overstated. No, but he when it comes to work, uh we've we've been serious, we had serious faces and we've discussed everything, uh made a joke later, but then I think a book like this uh and a person like me needed someone like him to make it happen. Otherwise, I'm always this guy who gets his creative juices working at the last moment, you know, the last in pressure. So but uh but then I think it's uh it's a great collaboration.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:23

Well, look, now gents, we've come to the famous quick fire round. Yeah. Okay. Now this is of course a special quick fire round for the two of you. Um it's been some time since you've been on the show. And uh this question, uh Liam's already answered it, so I'm gonna so the first quick fire question for anyone who comes onto the show, okay the first one, for me I think is always the most difficult. Yeah. So what's your favorite ingredient?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:00

Lemon juice.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:02

No way! Oh lemon juice! I wish we did this like flashcards, like you know, who else said it?

SPEAKER_06 1:39:10

No, no, no, no, no, not me.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:11

No one? No, acidity, things like this, yeah. But lemon juice, I would not have expected that from you. So I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:17

I think very important.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:18

I love it. Tamarin.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:19

I love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:19

Tamarin was mine.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:20

Alright, so this next one is for actually Liam, for you. What's your favourite recipe from the book?

SPEAKER_06 1:39:30

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:34

There can be two two answers to this.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:37

Okay, please, please. No, no, no, no. You say I think you're gonna I'll I'll I wish it I wanna write it down. Alright, let's at the same time. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:45

The one from the sub-recipes?

SPEAKER_06 1:39:47

Or the one from the recipes? The recipes, recipes.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:50

I think the pasta, the lingo. Yeah, there we go. Black sesame.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:53

Very good. Yeah, yeah. I think I think that's the I I had a bet because when you're writing the book, I had a bet with him, and she's like, which some people are gonna cook some re some people are not cooking any recipes, right? It's gonna be like a coffee table book for people, but some people are gonna cook some recipes, and I think there's ones that are more approachable than others, right? This is what you would expect. That's the thing, and the the black um sesame linguinits in the Himalayas.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:16

Oh yeah, no, but it's uh it's it's a beautiful recipe, but uh very, very technical. Yeah, I I was checking it out uh yesterday and I was like, oh yeah, really, really gorgeous. Yeah, and so so that one, Liam, and any any others, or is that the main one? What a beautiful one. Yeah, that one. Yeah, I've just got to put this on camera because it's like what a dish. But it looks so beautiful, yeah, right? But it's the simplicity of it, but it's not simple, it's incredibly technical.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:48

I feel people will cook that one because they'll go, it's a pasta course. So in their mind it's something recognizable, right? So they'll they'll do that either that or they'll do the the bone marrow roganyosh, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:57

Okay, too. So then next one is this is for the two of you uh Panipuri or Gupta Pavbaji. Uh and I'll go with uh Liam first.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:08

Panipuri. Um Gupta Pavaji. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:12

Alright, uh next one. Uh I'm gonna go with uh Himanshu first for this one. So uh kebabs carpeta or sadia celebration.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:22

Oh no way, man. Come on. I would if I have to pick one, both are amazing, but I would pick sadh any day.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:29

I would go sad as well. Yeah, me too. Yeah, and and uh a controversial recipe as well, too, for the for the restaurant. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:38

Talking of controversial, next one, uh Liam, for you, and then we'll go on to on to onto yourself, Himanshu. Uh Ghee roasted crab or buttermilk curry ice cream.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:51

Uh buttermilk curry ice cream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:54

Uh Gidoscrab.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:55

Oh man, that crab dish is like incredible.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:59

That's that's my mum's favourite, that one.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:01

Uh so Himanshu, as of this moment right now, what would you say are your top three favourite cuisines to eat?

SPEAKER_02 1:42:11

Indian, um Italian, and I would say Spanish.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:16

Oh, okay. Liam, for you, top three Caribbean foods to eat.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:22

Uh doubles from Trinidad, which is basically trole battery. Uh possibly I'd say stew pork from Trinidad. That's probably the next one. Uh and then the crab curry, which you always Oh yeah, and then the and then yeah, and then that's a good one. So um there's a in Trinidad we have a yellow crab, crab and dumpling curry, um, which there used to be a dish at a cappella, which was almost identical in in flavour to it. And I I remember throwing my head back going, oh my god, there's like a childhood, the ratatouille childhood memory where you just Google down the rabbit hole and come back. Brilliant. That one, yeah. Okay. The crab curry.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:03

Now, Himanshu, since we've had you on the show, lots of changed, and um I want to know what advice would you give to young chefs who want to cook in the best three-star Michelin kitchens in the world.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:19

I always feel um it's very important to to be humble in the kitchen, to be very level-headed. Uh things will not be things will not be rosy to begin with. There will be a lot of ups and downs. I mean, I've seen uh good talented people leave the kitchen in the first two years, and the one who stick probably are not that talented, but they have that patience and they have that courage to to take it on the chin. So I always feel that you know, be patient, wait for your chances, and always be humble.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:54

Perfect. Uh Liam, for you, what advice would you give to budding authors?

SPEAKER_06 1:43:59

Um start writing, practice writing, um, and try and find your voice and and find your lane. And and that can be that can be very tricky. I think about when I was writing in the beginning, you know, maybe I thought I needed to be more like this, maybe I thought I need to be more like that, I need to do you know, and it's a bit of emulation, and that's a bit eventually you kind of find your stride and and comfort within your skin. And I would say just just keep going, listen to people, um, take advice from people, and uh and just you know, a thousand gladwelling hours of practice, just keep going.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:32

How long did it take you to find your voice in writing?

SPEAKER_06 1:44:35

Uh I you could argue I'm probably still trying to find it. Um I d I I think that's probably just part of the course because you also get older, right? So I've been doing this for coming up to ten years, and and I'm not who I was ten years ago. Um and and so I think it just takes uh you know years and but maybe five, six years, I would say at that point. That's that's when I think I became a little bit more oh no, this is this is it. I'm not trying to be Gil or Jay Rayner or Grace Denn or any of these people, I'm trying to be me. And that's and and and what does that mean? So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:07

Well, look, gents, uh the book is out the 6th of May. I don't need to tell you that it's already gonna be a bestseller. Because I just I think uh when I've speak when I speak to people and a lot of people, they're super excited since they knew that the book was going to come out. Um everybody has been on Tenderhoa's thinking, oh my god, when is it gonna be out? Obviously, I know that the pre-orders have gone you know really well. Uh I'm really excited. Um on a personal perspective, um Liam, I cannot say how incredible it is that you know you've managed to put Himanshu his recipes onto such a beautiful piece of art. I know it wasn't easy, but uh massive congratulations to you. Thank you. Um Himanshu, um not just as a friend, as a chef, as a peer. Um it's been phenomenal to see the journey that you've been on. You know, I've known you since uh 2017 and um everyone, not just within the Dubai Chefs Collective, but uh within the culinary and the gastronomy landscape globally has seen your journey and wow, what a phenomenal journey. Thank you, honestly. Um so congrats. I know that the book is going to do well. So um I'm looking forward to the next one and the potential book tour that we're going to be doing after Fiden has uh you know approved everything, of course. Uh on behalf of the Chef JKP podcast, thank you very, very much for taking the time to be here. Uh it's always fascinating and an absolute pleasure to have you here. Um looking forward to to having the launch party when we have the launch party of the book. But uh yes, thank you very, very much for for really taking the time to to discuss this, and it's been absolutely incredible. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:06

Thank you so much, bro.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:07

Thank you. And I think James, for you, sorry. Um thank you always for for having us on on this show. I think this year in 2026 so far has been really testing for for restaurants. Um and what's really come out of it in terms of what's going on in the region is the sense of community that we have here in Dubai, particularly in the culinary and the hospitality community, and what you're doing with this podcast all the time is adding to the resonance of that community and bringing people together and letting them tell their stories and giving people a platform. And so thank you very much for for giving us that as well. And thank you for the privilege of co-writing this book.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:43

Thank you, bro. Are we getting formal? No, but three things to you. I'll give you a tightest. My tightest hug in Michelin guide was to James when I got three stars. I'm gonna give him a tight hug again now. Two more things. One thing. Maybe now you're gonna tell me, or in that podcast which I'm gonna take your seat and you will be here. It's a promise.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:06

That is happening. That is happening. We're waiting for Big Boss Courtney to say yes to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:10

We we we will you will get to know when will James is going to open his own restaurant. Yeah, yeah, and we'll tell you some stories which happened in Moscow, James's perspective. May or may not have happened.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:22

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:23

Listen out for a story in Moscow.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:28

Coming soon, coming soon. Alright, thank you guys. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:32

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:34

You see everyone, what a fantastic conversation that was. Now, just think about it. To have placed not only Dubai, but also India firmly on the global culinary map is something truly inspirational. And as for the book, well, genuinely just incredible. The rise of Indian food recipes reimagined by Tretton Studio. It's not just a beautiful book to own, it is truly an important one. A reflection of how far Indian cuisine has come and where it is going next. What I also loved was the chemistry between Himanshtu and Liam. You can feel the energy, the mutual respect, and the shared passion throughout the episode. It just makes for such an enjoyable watch and listen. Even if I do say so myself, do yourself a favour, go and get the book right now. You will not regret it. It is available now in all great bookshops and through the usual online stores. Of course, all of the links will be in the show notes. Thank you once again to the entire Treston Studio team, to Liam, Courtney, and Himanster for being. Here. Of course, to all of you for listening, thank you for always supporting us. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who loves food, hospitality, restaurants, or just great stories. Make sure you also follow the show, subscribe on YouTube, and of leave us a five-star review. Very, very, very important. It genuinely helps more than you know. From all of us here on the Chef JKP podcast, thank you for listening. Thank you for staying until the very, very end. I think it's because of the book you stay because of the end. Right? Anyways, this is Chef JKP signing out. Until next time, food is memories.