Why the Best Food Writers Never Make Themselves the Story | Paul Clifford

Chef JKP sits down with Paul Clifford, a journalist and editor who has spent more than a decade covering the Middle East's hospitality industry.

Paul shares how he left banking to become a reporter, moved from crime journalism into food and hospitality, and built his career in Dubai. They talk about restaurant reviews, food influencers, responsible criticism, career change, and why journalists should never make themselves the story.

WHAT YOU'LL HEAR IN THIS EPISODE

• Growing up in northeast England and the food that shaped his childhood
• Leaving a banking career to become a journalist at 27
• Reporting crime and the lessons it taught him about people
• Moving to Dubai and building a career in hospitality media
• Launching Gault&Millau in the Middle East
• The difference between restaurant critics and food influencers
• Why credibility matters more than popularity in journalism
• His advice for aspiring journalists and storytellers

CHAPTERS

00:00 Childhood Food Memories
10:10 Why He Left Banking For Journalism
22:47 Reporting Crime And Learning To Tell Stories
48:22 Moving To Dubai And Starting Again
01:08:36 Building A Career In Hospitality Media
01:34:37 Food Critics vs Food Influencers
02:14:23 Why He Left After Eleven Years
02:27:01 Advice For Young Journalists
02:38:31 Quick Fire Questions
02:47:05 Advice To His 16-Year-Old Self

FEATURED GUEST

Paul Clifford
Journalist, Editor & Entrepreneur

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pdclifford/

SEASON 13 PARTNER

This season is proudly sponsored by Elle & Vire Professionnel, trusted by chefs around the world for exceptional French dairy products shaped by decades of expertise and craftsmanship.

Elle & Vire Professionnel Middle East
https://www.instagram.com/ellevirprofessionnel_me/

AUDIO PARTNER

RØDE
https://rode.com/

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Chef JKP Thermos Flask
https://chefjkp.com/product/jkp-thermos-flask/

FOLLOW CHEF JKP

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chefjkp/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chefjkp/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@chefjkp

Website: https://chefjkp.com/

Food is memories. 🍸

#chefjkp #thechefjkppodcast #paulclifford #journalism #hospitality #restaurantreviews #foodmedia #gaultmillau #storytelling #dubai #hospitalityindustry

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

That's right. The podcast is now on YouTube. So you can watch all of the interviews at your leisure. At the same time, your contribution to the show by hitting that subscribe button makes a monumental difference to the show, as we can keep inviting the guests you love and keep having the conversations that no one else is having. The only thing that I ask is that you share the show. Welcome to the ChefJKP podcast of me, James Knight Pacheco. Culinary brothers and sisters, foodie disciples, this is the place where you will find your solace. A place of worship for all things that combine us together. The common thread that brings us around the table. Food and memories. Wherever you are in the world, whatever you're doing, I ask that you sit back and listen and perhaps take away a few morsels of advice. There will be laughter, we're gonna get serious. Above all, lessons for life. You're listening to the Chef JKP podcast, and this is what you can expect on today's show.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

He called me about this job, and then I heard him go, Do you want to go, please? We can do this later, we don't have to do it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

He's like, no, I've come out, I've come to the pub to interview you. Today's guest has spent more than two decades telling phenomenal stories. Paul Clifford is a journalist, editor, entrepreneur, and one of the most respected media figures in the Middle East. Your first triples away from the family. Literally, you went straight to the Middle East 2014 to now, even, you've become the group editor of ITP.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Early lesson, like you're not the story, you guys are the story, you're also the audience. So being able to share the successes of the people in this industry with other members of it, I think is really important.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

What advice would you give to 16-year-old or quiflet?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Believe in yourself earlier. I spent too long in that bank, I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Hello, my friends, and a very warm welcome back to the Chef JKP podcast. My name is James Knight Pacheco. I'll be your host as we navigate another incredible episode. Whether you're listening from a kitchen or your office, maybe you're in the gym, in your car, or somewhere halfway around the world. Thank you very, very much for joining us today. So before we begin, if these conversations challenge your thinking, inspire your journey, or simply make your commute a little bit more interesting, please subscribe on YouTube or press follow wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us to bring even more remarkable guests and stories to the table, and we spread that incredible message that food is memories. Well, on with the show. Today's guest has spent more than two decades telling phenomenal stories. But what's fascinating is that for much of that time he wasn't the person being interviewed. He was actually the person asking the questions. Paul Clifford is a journalist, editor, entrepreneur, and one of the most respected media figures in the Middle East. Most of you will know him from his years as group editor at ITP Media, where he helped shape some of the region's biggest publications. And by the way, interviewed countless leaders, founders, Jeffs, and decision makers. He spent a career spotting trends way before they become trends. Identifying great stories before they become headlines. Honestly, he's an absolute legend. And understanding what makes people pay full attention. Today, through Roster, his new company, he's helping brands, businesses, and individuals tell their stories in a world where attention has become one of the most valuable currencies on earth. This is a conversation about media, influence, entrepreneurship, reinvention, and what happens when a journalist decides to build something of his own. Now, trust me, gang, if you've ever wondered how stories shape businesses, careers, and entire industries, you're going to want to enjoy this one. Listen out for a story about his time as a crime reporter. Time to rock and roll. Just before we begin, here is a small message from this week's guest.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Hi, I'm Paul Clifford, and I'm a journalist and food writer. If you like the podcast, make sure to follow, share, and subscribe.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Paul, a very warm welcome to the show. Now, as is customary, can you tell me your first or favorite childhood food memory, please?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Okay. Um, well, thanks for having me. First of all, it's been a while. I've uh wanted to come and sit in this chair, but uh here I am, so cheers for that. Um, earliest food memories, I guess. Grew up in the northeast of England. Um a poor town and region and stuff. Not that I was in poverty, but it's a working class family. Dad in and out of work, mum couldn't work for health reasons, so there was not a lot of money around all the time for food, and I guess early 80s, very different time for what people ate and how they experienced food. So home cooking, like wasn't restaurants and stuff like that. Um, and I guess I also grew up in an age of probably we're about the same age, but I grew up in an age of uh when convenience foods were kind of prevalent. So um my mum would have a lot of kind of you know, frozen foods, fish fingers and and all of that kind of stuff. Um, but my nana, like my mum's mum, um was a great cook. And some of that was passed on to my mum, so there would always be there's a thing in the northeast which there might be a version of it elsewhere, but we call it penagaledy. Um, there's various different spellings of it because in each different town or region there's something slightly different. So there's panakaldy, there's panhaggity, which is sometimes you see on menus and places, yeah. Um, but we call it panagaldy. Um and uh saying the ingredients out loud is probably doesn't make it sound the avatar.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Tell me if you need to know.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

It's kind of uh my mum used to cook it in like kind of a shallow casserole pan.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Um, so it was kind of gravy, onions, bacon, but bacon kind of chopped up into tiny pieces. Yeah, corned beef, right, and thin slices of potato, and that's it. And and then and then it's baked? No, so this just was on the like on the hob on the on the oven top. I'm sure there will be versions that are baked. There'll be so it was kind of like the potatoes were kind of boiled in the in the gravy, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Potatoes again, um, sorry, the onions and potatoes kind of boiled in the gravy, the corn beef heated up in that, I suppose. Um and it's just like mixed all together. Yeah, yeah. And I used to have it with plain white bread, unbuttered, and kind of nice soak it all up. So that's a dish that always had fond memories because not everything that my nana cooked, my mum cooked, but she always cooked that, and that is kind of the comforting thing that I would always have. There's somebody will tell me that it should have sausage in, otherwise, it's not proper. That's not that wasn't how we had it, right? Um, so there was always that, and my nana used to cook again quite homely, stodgy stuff, I guess. Right. My my grandda was a miner, it's the northeast, it's cold, so everything was kind of hardy. And she used to make a thing that she called pie crust, which again is kind of a casserole baked this time with uh short crust pastry across the top. Um, but it was really thick, this pastry. Um, and it again was kind of a mince and onion stew, but sometimes with kind of stew and steak in, I guess what was around, or what was the butchers at the time, right? There was a butcher on the corner, right? That's where every we used to get everything from.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

So it was more sort of secondary cuts type thing.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah, okay. And uh that was just again really hardy, proper home cooking. And because we didn't go to restaurants and stuff like that, we pub food, I guess we used to have, but uh that was what I knew as food, and that reminds me of home. And I can think of my nana's house when I think of that dish. And yeah, I can think of being at my dinner table at my mom and dad's when I think of the Penagli. So they're the two dishes that remind me of being a kid, and and where exactly in the northeast? Uh so I'm from a town called South Shields, um, which is on the coast.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

It's kind of between Sunderland and Newcastle. Yeah. So it's about seven miles to both of those places, but it's right on the seaside. So a seaside town with a fairground and a beautiful beach, um, fish and chip shops. So that was a big part of growing up as well. Right. Um, there's a fish and chip shop called Coleman's, which is often voted one of the best in the country. That's still there, that's still going strong. They've expanded and they've got kind of more of a fine dining place now and stuff, but the original is still there. Right. Um, so fish and chips growing up. Um, yes, it's a seaside town where people used to holiday there, I guess, yeah, years and years ago. One interesting thing is there's always been a lot of immigration and settlement because it's right on the mouth of the Tyne. So a lot of like merchant navy and seamen would come in. So there's a Yemeni community from years and years back. Really? So where my Nana and Granda grew up was an area of town called Legate, and big Arab community there, uh, which maybe not so prevalent now, but back in the 30s, 40s, 50s, I guess that was unusual. Um, so there's some Yemeni and Egyptian heritage around the town, and then there's a lot of we've got a street called Ocean Road, which is the main road down to the sea from the town centre, and it's got about 20, 25 Indian restaurants on it. Because again, there was a big influx of people from that part of the world.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Um it's actually all Bangladeshi people rather than Indian, but I guess in the 70s, 80s when they were putting their restaurants out, they were Indian restaurants, so everybody thinks they're going, and it's a very end of the night after a night out. Okay. Um and I'll tell you a little, I've got something a bit later, I'll probably tell you about that. Um, but so that's the other thing about home as well. So Indian food, but obviously Anglicised Indian food, not like everything we have here, right? Um, big part of being a teenager and growing up. So once I started being going out drinking and with friends and stuff, it was always go for some Indian food at the end of the night.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

And how how spicy did you go?

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Not very at all. Um, you know, but it's like I said, very bland. Uh not everything on the menu is bland, but I think most people go for the kind of easy end of the spectrum. So it's it's comas and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

It's interesting to know that you've got that sort of community there, though. Yeah. I mean, like that, that's quite cool.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, and actually, as a you know, there's without getting too heavy in the politics and stuff, there's a lot of unrest in the UK on street level about immigrants and things like that. Um, I'm always proud that our town never really gets involved with that. Very tolerant, uh, always been a big Muslim community. Yeah. And you know, there's there's been mosques there since I can remember, well before I was born. Mohammed Ali got married in South Shields. Really? In Legate, that area where I just mentioned where my nan and granddaugh grew up. Right. Uh, there's a mosque there. And he got married at that mosque. There's an open top bus, there's pictures of him. Uh I used to work the local newspaper, and that you you you know, you have these front pages around. And I again grew up with seeing these pictures of Mohammed Ali in my town, which is strange. Amazing. Um, so yeah, you you're right. I I've always found it interesting, but I think it's cool that it's a town that has always welcomed people.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

I I guess it's because it's a kind of a port town, and that's well, well, the other thing is, Paul, is that um people who sort of know England, UK, in a way, they always say that uh down south, for example, people from London are sort of very cold, and northerners are more warm-hearted. And and I've certainly found that that that you know northerners seem to be sort of a lot more friendly, more welcoming, as you said, um, just want to have a fun, have a fantastic time. Yeah, and um, yeah, I think that's that's that part of the charm.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Yeah, I think you know, it it can be a bit cliched, I think, especially when you see portrayals on TV and things like that. I think it can veer into kind of not reality, but um there definitely is something in that, and I'm not I wouldn't say that other parts of the UK aren't friendly or aren't as friendly, but I do think you feel that um in the Northeast a lot. Um I remember going to London to see a friend, and again, I'll probably talk a little bit about going to London because some of my other food how I got into food was kind of trips to London. Um and I went into a bar, it kind of just opened, I think, and it maybe it was midday, and there was a a beer on, and it was Jarrow uh brewery, which is another town where where I'm from, and I used to live there, and my local pub was kind of the the microbrewery where this beer was brewed. And uh I went in the bar and I was like, Oh my well, good morning, mate. How are you doing? Or good afternoon. Um I was let that slip there. I was there in the morning. Good afternoon, good evening. Um I was like, Oh wow, uh I'll have a pint of that uh the gyro Jaro ale. I was like, okay. And I was like, it's crazy to see that here. It's from I I literally live a minute away from that brewery, that's my local pub. And he was just like, So I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the end of that. Welcome, welcome. But I'm the type of guy that will sit at a bar and like if I'm on my own, I'll have a chat. Um, and you know, I think that's similar with with chefs and bartenders, you know, it's you learn more and you find out more by having interactions like that. Yeah, and I'm always happy to have them, uh, but I guess I've found out then that not everybody is.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Nice. So, Paul, during your sort of um high school college years, what were the types of subjects that you leaned towards?

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Yeah, so you know, I became a journalist. Um, and being probably teenager, I used to love reading comics.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

You know, Marvel and DC and things like that. I used to love reading books, you know, all kind of classic kids' books I used to read. Um and I always wanted to get into that. I loved the idea of magazines, I'm a big devourer of magazines, um, whatever they might be, but kind of especially music magazines, so your enemy and and all of that, I really got into as a teenager. Um, and football as well. Uh so that was always in the back of my mind. But again, and I hate to play this card, but I had no idea how I would get into that world. And I had no a newspaper, fine, because we have a local newspaper and we went on tours of the local printing press and stuff like that. But magazines, I just had no idea how that would work. Like they didn't exist in the northeast, you know, they're in London, Manchester, somewhere else, maybe. Um so becoming a journalist kind of I I I just didn't think it was gonna be possible. So I was pretty good at English, um, terrible at art. I used to love geography. I got a bit of a nerd with like capital cities and flags and stuff like that. Um, but I guess the the writing was what I used to really enjoy. Um I wasn't very active, so I I played football, but I wasn't and I used to play computer games and read about it, but I was never gonna be a good footballer really, or and now that was kind of the only sport I was into. So the writing was what really got me. So I when I finished my GCSEs and I did okay, I didn't do amazing, I did okay. Uh I went to college, so South Tyneside College, uh, it's a big it's a naval college historically. Um they also have a big food uh kind of course as well. I didn't do that, I did English, geography, um and media studies. Right. Um media studies was kind of learning about uh the way the media works, um a lot about uh kind of philosophies and stuff about what messages get through and all of that kind of stuff. So you're not necessarily learning how to make a magazine or learning, but there was some practical modules with radio, video um, and again I I did okay, but I didn't really apply myself at all. I mentioned we found going out and drinking at that point, and at that time, and although the town's like suffered a bit since it was really busy town, so Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday was full, and people would come from Newcastle and other plot parts nearby to go out in South Shield, so it was busy, and there was pubs everywhere, and it was easy and very cheap, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Okay, fair enough, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Um so I didn't really apply myself at college that much, and I again I got okay grades. Um and I went to Sunderland Uni. Same story again. I probably could have gone to a uni elsewhere, but I just didn't think it was for me to move away. I thought Sunderland's the closest place, so I just applied there and got in there, and I did film and media studies there. Um same story, didn't really apply myself, used to go out too much, got involved with girls and you know all the distractions that you can get, did okay, didn't do great. Left with a media studies degree. Um, it was more in film theory than kind of the writing side of it. So I I don't know how or why, but I moved away from my initial thoughts and got into that. Um I wish I'd known at the time that doing a media studies degree then did not get you into the media industry, um certainly not into journalism, because I had a very harsh conversation with uh a guy who was the an old like a proper old Fleet Street editor and reporter years later. And uh he said, if I saw that TV come on my desk with media studies, he went, I wouldn't even look past that. Why wouldn't you do a proper lesson? Why wouldn't you do English? Like that's a that's a course for somebody that can't do anything else. Oh wow, and I obviously took that quite badly at that point. Um but there's truth in it. Um those courses have changed a bit now, they're a lot more practical. What I ended up doing years later was the NCTJ, which is the kind of the foundation journalism course in the UK, uh which is the recognized one by the industry. Now how and how long did that take? So I worked in a bank for seven years when I finished uni. Right. Um and then I took voluntary redundancy. So it was 2008, financial crash in the UK, and here, but everywhere, I guess, and redundancy was offered. So I took voluntary redundancy then. That was the best paid job I had, and the best paid job I had until I moved here. So I got into journalism after that, but that was kind of a solid job, paid well, but I wasn't a job I was that passionate about. So when the opportunity came to do that uh redundancy and get a payout, uh meant I could pay off a bit of debt from student times and stuff like that. And uh I had a holiday, but there's this course that was run by the press association out of uh the kind of the newspaper hub in Newcastle, uh, which were the Newcastle Chronicle, the Sunday Sun, and the journal were all printed. So they're the three biggest newspapers and certainly the Timeside area.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

And uh this press association course was £5,000 to get on, and I'd never had that kind of money before, but that was what I was told was the way to get in. So finally it seemed I'm 27 now, and I might have a chance to get into what I had always wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

And you were still into the magazine, still reading heavily, devouring books, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

And what I would say is I did keep my hand in a little bit, so one of my good friends growing up, his sister. Worked at the local newspaper. And his auntie was kind of one of the senior editors there. So I didn't really know her that much. But his sister, I mean, I was best friends with him. And growing up, we used to play in his house and his sister's room. She had posters of the stone roses on the wall and all this stuff. So we used to listen to her music. It's how I got into like a lot of music and stuff as well. And she used to run kind of the we call them the pop pages in the newspaper, um, with CD reviews, gig reviews, and stuff like that. And when I was about 15, I got the chance to go and do a gig review. I must have been older than that because it was in a club. Um, so that was kind of my first taste of writing something and getting it published. And then there's a little kind of listings magazine, not unlike time out in Newcastle called The Crack, which I found out eventually. And I did some writing for that, all free, but I got CDs, I got to go to gigs and theatre and stuff like that. So I was kind of expanding my horizons in terms of music and experiences, but that wasn't my job. Um, so I did that on and off over the years, and then yeah, managed to successfully get onto this course, which wasn't easy. Um, like I say, it was £5,000. I was 27. It's really a kind of graduates or or new uh kind of cub reporter who'd already been taken on because a newspaper sees potential in them, and then they pay their way onto this course. Um I I wasn't the only one going to pay my own way on it, and I wasn't even the oldest one on it, but I didn't realise that at the time. So I went to do tests and interviews, and the guy who ran it, um, there's a guy called Paul Jones. Actually, it's a guy called Tony, was the main guy, but he didn't really do the teaching. And this Paul Jones was a legend, and both of them obviously saw something in me, despite not really having the background and not being in academia for a while. And this was an intense five-month course in the basics of journalism. Well, every journalist in the UK should have that or did have that at one point. Maybe they don't anymore, but they did at the time. Um, and then when you get a job, you do the next stage of it, and you've got to build up a certain portfolio and you do more exams and stuff like that. Um, so I was always kind of smart, but never really applied myself and never really did well in exams and stuff. But now we've got the chance to do this. But uh Paul Jones said, Yeah, but this is £5,000. This is like rich kids come on this course, or newspapers already pay them on. You're 27, you've got a mortgage. What if it doesn't work out? We don't want to take that money off you. We're oversubscribed, and while we think you'll be good and we recognise something, like that's a lot of money to take off you when you don't know what's happening next. And I was just like, Yeah, but it's what I want to do, and I'm not gonna not succeed in it. And I think this was a real turning point in my this was a real turning point in my life and career where something in me s switch of a switch flipped where I went from not really applying myself and not really caring if I did well or what happened, to something going, no, I'm not failing in this. If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna really do it. And that I think has stood me well since then. Um so I ended up on the course, but I had to go back and do work experience. So I was 27 going into newsrooms, um, a local newspaper, all the ones I've mentioned, the Sun Lynecco and the Shield Gazette, where I'm from, and basically be like work experience, but as a grown-up who's been managing a team of like 10 people and has good salary and you know, has a mortgage, uh, which was strange and humbling, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Was it difficult?

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, it was difficult. And what I realized was as much as I thought I was a good writer and I like writing, I knew nothing about how to write for a newspaper. And also, one of the main things you need to be able to do as a journalist, pick up the phone and talk to people or stop them in the street and ask them a question or knock on their door. It took me a long time to get used to that. Even though I'm an outgoing guy and you know, at the time I'd probably be the loudest person in a in a pub sometimes. Actually, one-to-one interaction with people, I was I was bad at, I was scared. And it took some good mentorship from people that again saw something in me and maybe got into it a bit later themselves, um, to get me out of that kind of mindset and into it. And uh still not something that comes supernaturally to me. Um that kind because it look, we're talking about nice things, and that was one of the things that made me when I moved to Dubai, I was like, Well, this is easy. I'm talking about restaurants and bars and gigs and hotels.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Like I used to be talking about crime and well, that's what I wanted to ask you because I I mean, I'm just sort of trying to put things into perspective. I mean, so so if I'm doing the math correctly, Paul, uh, you've been in the bank for seven years after you graduated. Yeah. And as you said, you were managing a team, it was a grown-up job in a bank, you know, you're looking after people's money, all of that kind of stuff. To then go into that environment where it's a bit more dynamic, yeah, I would say. Yeah. And then again, I'm just surprised also to to hear that you you were a bit afraid or scared to talk to people, even though you were still talking to people in your day-to-day job. Yeah, yeah. But it was a different approach, yeah, I suppose. Um, so uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah, but I I again like somebody saw something in me, and one big difference was the characters, not just the characters you're dealing with day-to-day, which is the general public, and in a town like South Shields, I mean, wow, that they some are colourful, some are you know, yeah, colourful. Yeah, let's leave it at that. Um, but the people you're dealing with, you know, I was working in a bank, everybody's buttoned up, yeah, and it's it's very there's management and there's team leaders and there's corporate corporate, right? But it's a bank, right? Um, and I was in the head office, I wasn't in a branch, I was in the head office working on 20 million pound projects for websites and all of this kind of stuff, dealing with mortgages that were, you know, half a million pound mortgages and stuff. It was it wasn't boring, but it was serious. Yes, yeah. Um, and now I'm in a newsroom where there's people swearing at each other, there's throwing things at each other, there's shouts of editors from uh from his office, like this, it's and I loved it, and this is what Jonesy wanted me to try to make sure I didn't go no no, this was not for me. So I loved it. And uh, as much as you get the kind of dog's body work when you're the intern or the work experience or whatever it might be, I I I loved the camaraderie and the buzz of it all. And very quickly, so I ended up passing the course and doing well in the course, and I started working on the Shields Gazette, my local newspaper.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

So that was your first official job? Yeah. As in in press.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

And I was freelance covering maternity leave, and I got paid 60 pounds a day, I think. And I was just the guy that they sent out to do what whatever. There's some some nookcase downstairs. Sorry, there's somebody, there's a bit of a weirdo downstairs, yeah. Um, and he's asking about something, and you go and deal with it because it's probably nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

And could even be dangerous, but you know, also we were right next to the job centre.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

So somebody who had some kind of problem in the job center would always come in complaining about what had gone down. We're also opposite about four or five quite notorious pups. So we were in the centre of the town, which is great for a newspaper, but yeah, the characters that appear on your doorstep are like the the spectrum of these people is intimidating, but also funny sometimes. Sure. Like you're alive with a lot of it sometimes, and you get to meet so many different people and learn about again, just learn more about life.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Um, I want to ask Paul so so because you know that your first sort of job, you know, when you landed in the press was, of course, as you said, reporting crime. Yeah. Right. So was was that from a petty crime to sort of major crime? Was it and and and how much of an area were you covering?

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Okay, so very quickly, the editor saw something in me that he called me in his office one day and editor again, a character. A character.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

But I would not be where I am now without him, even though it was difficult sometimes. So I'm thinking about uh, you know, when you say character, I'm thinking about you know the guy in Spider-Man, who is uh the the editor of the the the the daily you know world or whatever his name is and Peter Parker is having to talk to him.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

He's you know so these editors a lot less glamorous than that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

But but no, but they seem they these editors seem to be, as you said, very outspoken and full of ideas and and boisterous, I think.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Loud, angry, sweary, right, um, intimidating. Okay, and you know, you're on the wrong side of them.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

It's game over.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Yeah, I mean, you might never get back on side, and it could be for something you don't even realise you've done. Okay. Um, which almost happened to me once, but I managed to talk my way out of it. That was early on. And then I think because of that little interaction I had with him, uh he called me in his office one day, and it's again, it's Clifford! Like, and then you go in, yeah, yeah, John. Well, what can I do for you? He's like, I hear you're a good operator, I hear a lot of good things about you. How do you want to be the crime reporter? And I was like, honestly. And he shouted Jamie, so this guy, Jamie, who's a he's a a mentor for sure, and a good friend. And he used to call him James all the time. It's not his name's name, but he called him he was like, James, come in here. Jamie came in and he said, uh, James, should we tell Clifford what we've got in mind for him? And Jamie just was like, uh, yep, yeah. He went, You want to be a crime reporter? I was like, I can't say no to that. I'm freelance at the moment, I want to work here, and it's not many people get that. It's one of the biggest beats on the on the job in a local newspaper. That's like that and the the council reporters are the ones that get the kind of glamorous or nitty-gritty, like the big stories. So I was like, Yeah, of course, it's an honor. Like, thank you so much. How does it work? What do you what what next? And he went, Well, step out of my room for a second. I won't say her name, but he shouted somebody else in. He's like, In my office now. And he said, You're not the crime reporter anymore. No, so that's an opposite of this girl. Oh, no, and not my fault, but she hated me after that. And not went for that job. I did not expect to get it, but for the next two years, I said opposite. Well, she honestly she hated me. Um, and that was difficult. Yeah, that kind of recognition and belief from everyone, and I think I'd been there three months. Um, and the crime reporter came with being a co-reporter as well. So the crime reporter is for South Tyne side, which is South Shields, Jarrow, and Hebben are the three towns, all on the south side of the town, of the Tyne, sorry, from the coast to heading towards Gateset and Newcastle. Right. So that's the area, and then at the edges a little bit into Sunderland. Um, and I went to the magistrates' court for that area, which is in South Shields every single day for three years, I think. Um, so in the morning, you'd phone the police, the fire brigade, the lifeguard, and has anything happened overnight? You know, anything to tell us? They can tell you? Yeah, so it's a bit honestly, I don't know if it still works like that now, and it was fading out a little bit at that point. Sure. Actually, what it was when my boss did it, he would go next door to the police station and have a cupper with the chief inspector and tell me what's happened overnight. And you had that one-on-one relationship where they'd give you a bit of something, they might tell you, like, but keep that out of it, or whatever. By the time I joined, you kind of rang a pre-recorded voice line. So I would ring this number and there'd be updates on it's 1 a.m., whatever date, and police were called to this address for this thing, and this is what happened, or somebody was taking into custody or whatever. What you found out quite then you would you would get that, note it down. That sounds interesting. Then you would call the chief inspector and say, Hey, I just got this on the voice on the voice bank. Um, can you tell me a bit more about it? They would say nothing, really. So the game was you had to know a bit more about that thing, and then you would give them like, Am I wrong to say that this was this thing? So a good example was um Voice Bank said 8 a.m. yesterday morning, or this morning perhaps, uh, police were called to this address for an incident between two adult males. One sustained a minor hand injury, was taken to hospital, uh, he's recovering at home. The other male was arrested on suspicion of this, and he's been released on bail. So that's it. So you can write a little 50-word story about that. Or you can ring the police and go, can you tell me this address? Was it it was Harton School? I knew the address. So was it Harton School? Yeah. Okay. Would have I would I be wrong to say it was an altercation between two men at the school's nativity play? No, you wouldn't be wrong. Would I be wrong to say that the minor hand injury was somebody getting the end of his finger bitten off? And you can hear the guy go. No, you wouldn't be wrong. Because they can't lie, right, but they don't have to tell you all the facts. All right, thank you very much. That's all I need to know. So I've had an email overnight going, uh, this Carnage at the school play yesterday. These two guys were fighting each other. So I've got this message that's a bit cryptic, and this email, which you never know could be true, could be absolute nonsense. And I'm like, if they're the same thing, I'm gonna this is a story, right? So I'm straight out to the school. It's a bit of a you know, hanging around the school gates. So I'm out at the school knocking on the doors. Did anybody see anything yesterday? Was there a fight here? Like, and somebody went, Yes, him and that house over there. So I've got I'm with a photographer. So this is kind of you know, it's not tabloid journalism, but the tabloids will like this story.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Um, so I knock on this guy's door, the photographer's kind of at the end of the driveway, whatever. And what I want, so I knock on the door, guy maybe opens it like that. You take a step back, so they have to come out the door a bit, right? Which means you can get that photograph of them a bit better.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

What I want is a guy with a bandaged up hand to have his hand around the door going, yes, with you know, his finger bandaged up, which is exactly what I happened. Right. Um, and we get the picture, and he doesn't really want to talk, but I've got enough to do this story. Um, what I don't have is it's a fight over an ex, and it's the new boyfriend and the old husband, and the fighting and the kids and all of that kind of stuff. And that's a bit CD and a bit grim, and can't nobody's really confirming that. So you can't write that at that point. But I can certainly tell my colleagues on the Sun or the Mirror that this is the thing because they care a lot less than the local newspaper about this altercation and nativity play. So I ended up speaking to a guy who worked for the mirror, I think, and all local newspapers have an agreement in place with it, like a news agency where the newspaper gets paid to send them these stories and the assets that we have, and they also send us content that we can use. But um that does me no favours, but if I call this guy directly, he's probably gonna throw 100 quid in my bank account for tipping him off.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

You're not meant to do that on this occasion. That's what happened. Uh, and this guy, I think it was the guy from the mirror, uh, ended up basically staking out this house to get the rest of the story that we couldn't print. And I said, look, well, this is what I know this happened, but I just can't prove it. We say stand it up. We could I can't stand it up, so it's not in my copy, but this is definitely what happened. And I've heard it from X amount of people. So yeah, the next actually was the sun because the next day I was going to London and I was in the uh central station in Newcastle, WSM's getting my papers for the train, and the front page is uh this nativity nightmare. Uh the bitten off finger and all this kind of stuff. Wow. So yeah, that's uh that's the kind of thing that would that would happen. And I was like about six months into the job. Um, and then the court stuff was yeah, what you find out is most crime is petty crime, and there's very little big murders or drug incidents, or there is organized crime going on, yeah, but it's in the background, it's not what affects everybody's day-to-day lives. Most of the people that turn up in court, it's just a bit sad. They're alcoholics, they're addicts, they're out of work, they can't get work because they're addicts, they keep getting arrested because they've stolen a packet of bacon to try and sell to somebody in a pub so they can pay for the next thing that they need to buy. They get arrested, they're in the cells overnight, they miss their appointment with the employment centre the next day, so they all get stopped. They've got no benefits anymore, so now they can't pay for their halfway house that they're meant to be living in, so they get kicked out of that. Now they're on the streets, and it's just a big cycle of real societal issues that just keep this thing perpetuating. And over three years doing that job, that was getting worse and worse and worse, I guess. As the UK economy and stuff got worse and worse and worse, right? And it just became really depressing, and uh and I'm in my hometown at the same time, so often it's people I know or I grew up with.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Um that must have been also quite tricky and challenging to navigate.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

It was, and some you know, sometimes I'd get the bus home with a guy who's just been in court who can see me and maybe knows me because he's a regular. Um, and he get a lot of stick, and yeah, I got sent letters from prison with somebody sent me a syringe. Um, a heroin addict sent me a syringe in the post, and I was getting he was a stalker and he sending me these letters from from Durham Prison. Of course, uh I I just actually I just threw them out. I kept them for a long time, and I thought I just moved house and I threw them out. I was like, what am I keeping these for? Um but yeah, different time. Uh and there was one really violent guy that was scary, and he tried to attack me in the court. And uh in the court, like outside the courtroom, but in the court building. Yeah. And thankfully, you know, you do that job every day for three hours. I I spent more time with the people in the courtroom than the people in my office. Sure. So you get to know the tea ladies and the security guards and all of that kind of stuff, and that those relationships become your currency in that job.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Yes, true.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Um, more that phone call with the police told me 1% of what I needed to know. You need to make friends with the solicitors, with the prosecutors, with the court clerks, and you've obviously got to be kind of personable to do that. So, this is where and when my kind of inhibitions over talking to people and stuff like really broke down. And I was like, it again, it something flipped, and I suddenly was absolutely fine standing up for myself, absolutely fine talking to people, being in kind of out of my comfort zone situations. Uh, but thank this guy went for me and he was dangerous, like he was a dangerous criminal. Uh and one of the security guards honestly was coming for me, and I could see him coming, and then he just was gone. And the security guard kind of got in between them and pushed him away. And I took about a week off from the court at that point, and then I was like, Yeah, I'm kind of done with this now. It's just depressing, it's getting a bit scary. Uh, I ended up going to work for the Sun Lyn Echo, the bigger newspaper in the group on the news desk. So I was office bound at that point, fielding calls from people, managing a team of journalists or helping to manage the team of journalists, piecing together what goes in every day's newspaper. Keeping the deadline straight, talking to the editor who's the same guy. Um uh and again, John, yeah. And the cat just the characters, the characters that you meet in the newsroom and that you talk to, it's it prepares you for a lot.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

This season of the Chef JKP podcast is proudly brought to you by Eliver Professional. For 80 years, this iconic French dairy house from Normandy has been trusted by gastronomes, renowned pastry chefs, and culinary professionals around the world for its exceptional creams and butters, built on heritage, craftsmanship, innovation, and of course, uncompromising quality. Eliver continues to inspire creativity in kitchens across more than 120 countries, from everyday excellence to the world's most prestigious culinary stages. Eliver is a true partner of excellence. To discover more, head over to www.elevere.com. That's el e-t-vire.com. Now back to the episode. I was gonna ask you, is it quite also difficult? Well, or how I don't know, how difficult is it when you have a newspaper which is let's say I don't know for 40, 50 pages, to fill it with stories, advertising, all of that kind of stuff, obituaries. Yeah. Um, I mean, there's a lot that goes into a daily newspaper. Yeah, how do you plan for that?

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Um, yeah, so you need a good team of reporters, they need to be on the ball and up to speed, they need to have amazing diaries. You need to have an amazing diary where you've got all the anniversaries of everything.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

This uh as sad as it is, like this kid died on the 26th of June. That needs to be in your diary, so you know that we need to go back and see that family in advance of that anniversary or whatever it might be. A lot of it you're just hoping that something good happens. Good in this given news, um, which often isn't good, you know, for somebody. But everybody's out, you know, that court reporter's out. You've got somebody at Crown Court, you've got somebody else at the magistrate's court, you've got somebody at a council meeting, you're hoping there's some kind of somebody kicks off and that somebody's fighting, arguing about something. You're hoping one of these people that walks in and asks to speak to a reporter has an amazing story. Um you've got you've probably got the front page and the front page lead story. You've got up to page 11 as news news. Right, okay. And then you've probably got from page 11 to about page 30 as business news and school news, and this school has done this, and this local arts centre is doing this thing, all the kind of softer, fluffier stuff that it's still very important for local communities, but that is stuff that just comes in.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Uh, and those reporters always have those people and those contacts. That page one to eleven is what you're panicking about every day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

So I know I've got a meeting with John at one o'clock every day where I've got a run-through, and I was the deputy news editor, so it wasn't always my responsibility. But when the news editor was off or we had split shifts, it was me going into that room with John and going, right, and he just wants to know what's on the front page tomorrow. And by one o'clock the day before, you kind of need to know, or you need to have a few things that might come off that could happen. Because if you go into that room and you don't know what's on page one, three, five, seven, nine, eleven, I mean, you're not in that job. You you you're getting shouted at and kicked out, right? It's just not an option. So again, that it makes you plan, it makes you think on your feet. It's to be very meticulous. Yeah. You must be. Yeah. Uh yeah, and you know, it's as much as people think the news is made up and there's like dodgy tactics at play and stuff like that, in local news, that's just not how it works. Like the people that read that newspaper are the people that rely on you and you rely on them. You can't mess them about because I would say the decline of local news in the UK is precisely because didn't take those people seriously enough and give them what they really wanted. Um, and they stopped believing in it. And once they stop believing in it, it goes away. So you have to do things by the book, and you've got to do things right that make a difference for that community that you're serving. And as a journalist in that way, you you serve those people. It's a big change in journalism now, where you know, there's personal branding for a lot of things, online and social media, like everybody can have have a platform to talk and be a journalist. But a lot of what one of the first things you're told in your journalism training is you're not the story. Like nobody cares about you. You are the person that finds out what's going on over here to tell those people over here. You're the cog that uh gets that information and keeps them informed about it. These people are upset about something or worried, you take that to these people that are important that make the decisions, and you serve both sides. Who you are doesn't matter, unless you become a famous columnist or you know, uh somebody who's on the TV talking about the daily news, or maybe a restaurant critic. Again, similar. I think that's one thing that has changed with the rise of foodie influencers and bloggers and stuff like that, which I'm not saying there's not talented people in that sphere, but who are you what message are you trying to get across to what people and why are you important in that? Because unless you're an Adrian Gill or a Jay Rayner or a Marina or Loves, like I mean, I care what they have to say because I know their brand and what they stand for, and I also like the way they write. Um, but I don't really care what I've got to say because I mean I'm just a guy that goes, I'm lucky enough to go to that restaurant and be able to tell these people over here, perhaps, whether it's worth their money or not, in my opinion. But it doesn't really matter whether my name is on it or whether it's Eustra's name on it or whatever, because that's not the kind of journalism we do here or time outdoors or um or most food reviews are until you get that platform.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Um, and then obviously there's some great stuff with that, and some great people do that. But I think the democratisation of social media and the ability to be able to be a critic, maybe without any grounding or any foundation in what the rights and wrongs are of how you talk to people, how you talk about people. I think that's one of the things that's quite dangerous for the FB industry. Um, you know, people's livelihoods are at stake, you know, and reputations. You've got somebody who makes their living as a a banker or a lawyer, which means they can afford to go to nice places to eat and then give their opinion on it. All right, you've probably been to a lot of nice restaurants as a result of that. But do you have that foundation of what what the right and wrongs are of how you talk to people and the things that you should say?

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:43

Um I still every day in my job I think about something that was told to me on the very for the very first day of my journalism college. Numerous things. There's something that always like kicks in. And I think if you're not had that, then where do you draw the line or where do you know where the line is? And where do you stop in your critique or criticism of restaurants or bars or hotels?

SPEAKER_00 52:10

What is that point that you were told?

SPEAKER_02 52:13

One thing I can't tell you because it's wary. Um it's it's about it all falls in with are you the story or are you not and you shouldn't be. And the most important thing is don't say anything that you can't approve or back up. In this part of the world, even more important because in the UK you have right to reply, you have uh somebody says you're slandering them and you can prove actually what or libeling them, you can prove what you've said is true, but it's an absolute defense. Here that doesn't exist, right? So if you say this man is a terrible restaurateur and his restaurant stinks and they say, Well, you've that's libel and you say, Well, actually you've had three restaurants closed down over hygiene issues and you've had you've been in court five times by staff members that you've said have not been paid or you've abused or whatever. In the UK, court will go, Yeah, that doesn't mean you're a terrible restaurant, uh, and your restaurants probably do stink, so you've got no case. Here, that could be true, but it doesn't matter. Like the truth doesn't really come into it. So, again, you know, I've done law, I have to I've I've got law qualifications because you have to in the UK. Not to be a lawyer, but to understand media law, um, to understand local government law. Um, you can't be a court reporter unless you can do shorthand at a certain words per minute. You're just not allowed to do it because what you're writing down in that court isn't thought of as being credible or reliable until you can do a hundred words a minute of shorthand. So there's all these checks and balances in the UK, and then when you come here, you have to learn the the nuances in the media law here, which are very different. Um, it's based on the same, but there's differences.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Absolutely. So, look, Paul, I want to understand then in 2014, yeah, you made the decision to you know move away from the UK. Yeah, uh, how did you get approached, or what was the the whole outcome there?

SPEAKER_02 54:34

So, similar to what I've just gone through in the last few months, I guess, with making another big decision about my future and career, I was at local news, I was on the news desk, I'd been there about 18 months, I think, in that role. Um, I loved it, I thought I was good at it. Um but the local news industry was contracting. Um there was somebody senior that I just didn't quite get on with me. I had no problem with them, but it always seemed to be an issue. And uh we had three newspapers and there was three news editors on each. Those news desks were going to be pooled together and we were gonna lose one person from those news desks, and uh it was gonna be eight instead of nine essentially, and it would just be one group that worked on all three. And I was the newest in that role. The kind of deciding management clearly didn't really like me that much, and I just thought, you know what, if I'm getting out of this job or I'm gonna lose this job, I wanted to be my decision. Um and not because somebody else has decided I'm not good enough. Right. Um and I was 32 or something, so you know, an adult. I had no ties really, like no kids, no mortgage by that point. Um, not because I owned a house, I just sold it. Yeah. Um uh so I had like no financial ties other than my parents, like no family ties. Um so just decided to see what was out there. I had a couple of nice trips away. I went to Sweden, I was in Malaga for a bit, and I just kind of I was out of the newsroom for a kind of a few weeks in a row. Um, and I kind of liked it not being sat at a desk and doing that job for a little bit. So I just started looking at again, I'd never thought I would move away. I hadn't. You know, I'd I'd grown up in South Shields, I worked in Sunderland, so I went to uni in Sunderland, I did my journalism training, and I worked in a bank in Newcastle, I did my journalism training in Newcastle, I lived in Newcastle, then I worked in Sunderland. And I'm like, is my the rest of my life here? Like, and at one point growing up, I thought yes, and I I had that kind of defeatist mentality or small town mentality of like this is my life, it doesn't happen for people like me. Um, but at that point, as a grown-up, I thought, well, why not? Um so I just started looking at what if I could move abroad and do something abroad. Can't really speak any other languages, so that restricted my search somewhat. So I started looking at English speaking like territories and places. So I applied for something in Hong Kong, applied for something in the US, Oman here, um, Brazil, although I don't know how that would have worked. Um and I heard back from Job and Oman, which I guess would have been like the times of Oman, like a newspaper job. Um didn't really work out. Uh I spoke to somebody seven days when seven days was was running here. Um didn't really work out. Uh that was to be on the news desk there. I I mean that was I flunked that interview, it was awful. Um uh and then I I must have applied for timeout. Um, and I think, like I said earlier, all I tried to always keep my hand in with doing music reviews and travel reviews. I wanted to be a music journalist growing up. Um, and I was always doing that. And I'd started doing uh hotel reviews and things like that, just because it was a getaway and flexed a different part of your writing and stuff. So there was a nightlife editor job on Time Out Dubai going, uh, and I applied for that, not knowing anything about Dubai, not knowing anything. I knew Time Out, obviously, because it's from the UK originally, and I knew it, although it was London-based at that point. Um, but I was well aware of what Time Out stood for, and some of my favourite writers had had worked on it, like music journalists. So I was aware of it, but I don't know, I just I saw it and sent my CV. Didn't hear back for ages, and then probably about three months later, or it took about three months before I got the job, but at that point it moved very quickly. Um I got a call from a guy called Will Milner, who had also worked in local news in the UK, but he'd been here a long time, and he worked a timeout. And he said, Hey Paul, I had your CV for a while, saw you apply for the nightlife editor job, but what you do is like that's kind of it's a bit more junior than what you do right now. So I've been waiting for something that's a bit more in line with your expertise and experience. Um, and I've got this position, and it's to be the guides editor on Time Out, which doesn't exist anymore as a role, but effectively it was everything that Timeout publishes around the region that isn't a magazine, so there's not as many of them now, but you'd remember the big restaurant guide, the nightlife guides, spas and hotels and all of that kind of stuff for Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain. This was before Saudi was kind of on the radar for publishing. So yeah, I ended up uh doing that interview with him. Then he asked me to do a writing test, which I was at a festival. Uh he was like, Can you get it to be by tomorrow? And I was like, Um, yeah. Um, luckily for me, I was in my 30s and I'd stayed in a bit uh in a B B and not in a tent.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Well done. Well done, well done, well done. Because I was gonna say, yeah, and you had your laptop.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

No, I did it on my phone. Oh, right. And it's obviously this is a phone in 2013 or something. Um maybe 2014. Wow. So it wasn't like I had, I mean, it wasn't a BlackBerry, but it wasn't like I had a a really good iPhone or something to write on. So I did it, I sent it, and then I heard nothing for about three weeks, and I was like, oh, right, yeah, that like the timing just obviously wasn't great, and maybe what I submitted wasn't very good. And then all of a sudden I got a message to say, I have a call with a guy called Mark Dinning. And I don't know whether you ever met Mark, uh, but he um basically was moving out to be the time out to buy editor at the time. He was the he was for Empire magazine. Oh right. He was the global editor for Empire. So Movie Mag, if anybody doesn't know what that is, but it was the biggest movie magazine at the time. And I kind of knew who he was because if on BBC Six Music and sometimes like Breakfast TV, like he would be on talking about the latest films coming out and stuff like that. Um so he called me and he went, Alright, Paul, this is Mark. Um I've been asked to give you a call about this job. And then I heard him go two pints of gross please. And I was like, What? I was like, sorry, are you like with somebody? He was like, No. I was like, Oh, I thought I just heard you order some drinks. And he went, Yeah, for me. I was like, oh, I was like, we can do this later, we don't have to do it now. He's like, no, I've come out, I've come to the pub to interview. I was like, all right. And he was like, oh, he went, yeah, I've ordered two, so I don't have to get up again. And I was like, all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

And I thought, genius, quite like this guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

And he went, and I guess ITB didn't know he said this, but he went, I'll tell you what, Paul, you're the only person they've asked me to call. So unless I think you're an absolute clown, it's not the word used, uh, I'm guessing you've got this job. And I was like, all right. And then we just had a nice half-hour chat um about work, but it felt really good and energetic, and obviously a very clever, smart guy. That I thought, you know, I'm looking forward to working with this guy. And uh had a job offer the next morning. Uh and I messaged him saying, Hey, they've offered me this salary. Like, bit cheeky, but do you think there's like wiggle room can I go? Because I had again no idea on like whether that's the done thing or uh and he went, Well, I tried and I didn't get anywhere, so might not be worth it. And I was like, Alright, fine. Uh, so he came out about two weeks later, and I was here a week after that. Um quite a rocky start, I would say. I was just unsure of where what I was going to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

In Dubai or Abu Dhabi?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:21

In Dubai. So I've been in Dubai since then. Right. So I did this guide to a job, and it's a bit of like you're doing a bit of everything, but you're not really in charge of your own destiny.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

How was your first week? Because obviously a nightmare. You know, I can imagine the the weather is a bit colder in uh South Shields compared to Dubai.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

Yeah, September in Dubai, which not the hottest month, but it was still pretty hot.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

Sticky, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

You know, not I'm never I was never a taxi guy, you know. Like I'm not from that kind of I'll get a taxi go in there. I would walk home from like Sundland in South Shields. I'd take about an hour and a half, you know, or the last bus home and all that. I was never a taxi man. Now all of a sudden people are saying, Oh, just get it's up. I'm like, it's just there. We don't little did I realise at that point it was very hard to walk from A to B. It's a bit easier now. Um, so all of that kind of culturally, and I wouldn't say I I got married before I moved over here, and I was here with my wife, who we're now we're now separate and divorced. But at that time there was two of us, yeah. We both she also a journalist. Um, she didn't come over for a job, so she quit and then kind of was confident she'd get a job when she got here.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

So I wasn't on my own. Um, but we were both a bit like fish out of water for sure. She's also from the northeast, so we were both like, oh wow, this is different. Um, went in the first bar I went into was smoky, and I'm like, Well, you can smoke inside here. Like, that obviously hasn't been a thing in the UK for about eight years at that point. Um, it's expensive, there's taxis, like I just all of that kind of stuff. Um, not hard, but it's different, right? Different, yes. Um, and then my first day in the office, I did a bit of a reggae the day before, so I kind of knew how to get there. Right. And then I got in and I'm from the a newsroom in England. Uh I'm shirt and suit and tie, and then everybody, it's timeout, and everyone's wearing like funky clothes, and I look like this total nerd in my like what top man suit and and all of that. And I just felt out of place straight away. And they're like, There's your desk. So Mark, who had interviewed me, it was deadline day, so it was Sunday to Thursday weeks then. Yes, yeah. And Sunday was press day for timeout when it was weekly. So he's in the thick of press day for a magazine that I'm not involved in. I also don't report into him, so he doesn't really have to talk to me, and he's he's in the mire of what he's doing. Will, who kind of hired me, he's in LA on Timeout International Conference or something. So the two people I've spoken to at this point aren't there, and I don't know. Anybody else, so I've just got a desk. This is your deputy on one side, and this is your sub on the other side. It's like, oh hey, um, right, nice to meet you. I was like, I'll get to you next. Chris is was the the sub, lovely guy, and then there's a lady who was the deputy, and I was like, Right, you want to fill me in on like what you're working on and where you are with things, and you know, like she went, No, it's just your job now. And I was like, Oh. Um I guess she maybe she wanted to be editor and wasn't, and make that step. So um and she went, also, uh, I'm gonna have my notice in a day. I was like, Alright. So she was gone quite quickly, and I'm not knocking her for it, but did not help me sell or get up to speed. Yeah. So really, for I went home that night a little bit. No, it didn't feel great. Um, the Tuesday, or maybe the next day, I went out with Chris the sub for a beer um in Media One and got to know him a little bit. Very quiet, nice guy. Um, I knew I'd get on with him okay. But then I was like, well, who do I work for here? Like, I don't I don't really know what I'm gonna be doing, and I some things are halfway through. I also have to deal with the teams that work for the magazines that they don't really work for me, but I'm required, I need them to input into what I'm doing. But they've got their own stuff going on, so how do I navigate that? Especially because nobody's introduced me to anyone, and the guy who had left, I got the sense that maybe he was well liked and now I've come to take his place. Um, so it was strange, and then I don't know, a few days later, a guy came in and uh I've got a lot of time. There's a guy called Peter, and he'd been at ITP since the start, pretty much, and he was actually my boss. Um and he walked in, he's got a flowery shirt on. He's got he's about probably let's say he's about 10 years older than me, maybe less than he's got a ponytail. And he's like, You must be Paul Clifford? I said, Yeah, he went, come with me. I didn't know who he was at this point. So I went up uh in the lift, he's got an office, corner office, lights up a cigarette, he's sitting on his like, and I was like, Wow, this is so different, like smoking in his office. He was like, Do you want a drink? And I was like, This is gonna be a glass of whiskey or something. Um, but it was he had a a fridge with coke in it, and I was like, Oh, this is pretty cool, this guy. Bear in mind, I'm 32, I'm not 17 or 18, you know. And I'm like, Wow, he's got he's got coke in his office. It's unheard of and I also noticed he had a big pile of CDs and box sets of bands that I recognize and like so I clocked them a bit, anyway. He was like, he sat down next to me, and he was like, Ordinarily, I would have I would have spoken to you before you were hired because it's quite a senior job. He went, but I wasn't around and it's happened, so I don't really know that much about you other than your CV. So let's just have a chat. And I guess I was a bit on edge and intimidated by the scenario, and he's obviously a senior man in the company that I didn't really know who he was at this point. So he said, Um, don't worry, you've got the job, you're not being interviewed now, you're here, but I just want to know a bit more about you. So I spoke to him and he said he'd done some work in the northeast and a place called Chesley Street, which is where my dad's from. And so there's a couple of things we kind of got on with. And then after a while, I was like, sorry, uh, is that a spiritualised box set over there on your desk? And he was like, Yeah, you like them? I was like, Yeah, you went, they're from I love them, they're from the same town I'm from. I'm from rugby in the in the Midlands, and that's where they're from. I've always liked them. He was like, I just got sent that, and I and we just started talking about music for a bit, and rightly or wrongly, that got me in. And that kind of he always seemed to have an eye out for me and have a bit of a soft spot for me after that. Again, similar to when I went for that interview to go on the journalism course. Yeah, I thought if I'm moving to Dubai and I'm getting this job and I'm uprooting my life and somebody else's life at that point, um, I'm not gonna fail in it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

I'm gonna make a good impression. I'm not a kind of I'm not a stamp on anybody kind of go-getter in that way, but I will make myself heard in a room, in a meeting, in in the office. And also I'd come from boisterous newsrooms, right? Yes. Where you've got people shouting at you, people ringing up, death threats, and all that kind of stuff. These are all like kind of pretty 20-somethings that are from this environment, magazine background and fashion and luxury, and all of that. So actually, I'm suddenly I'm the one that's the kind of boisterous, loud outsider that is bringing something different to this. And Mark, bless him, who we got on really well, was similar. So me and him ended up all being, we didn't really work together. He was the more senior one in that in that room. I felt like we got on really well and kind of I'm not saying the people in that room weren't good or were didn't have personality or anything. There's some great people we worked with and still do. Um, but I think we kind of elevated just the atmosphere a little bit, right? Um, in terms of being able to have a bit of a laugh, and especially when it's hard, you know, you're on deadlines and you get stressed. Like it's fine to get stressed in those situations, but you've got to alleviate it, you've got to be able to laugh at yourself. And I think that background of dealing with real hard news, uh sad news a lot of the time, and newspapers, you'll find if you meet journalists you've like from the UK and from the background I'm from, especially, you've got a real kind of dark sense of humor under like underlying everything, and you can kind of laugh about more stuff. I found since moving here, not everybody shares that opinion. Uh uh, and so is the HR department. But um but yeah, that's in you. So I think we uh me and him got on really well, and that once we got to know each other, that really brought me alive a little bit when I was here. And before long, I got to the point where they wanted and I wanted something that was a bit more my own to show what I could do, and that was when I ended up being the timeout abidabi editor. Team had gone through a couple of changes and it was a bit unsettled. So I was like, hey, I think I can do this, and it would actually make me the editor of a thing that came out every week, and I could direct the the content plan and the strategy and you know what it looked like and what the voice was within the brand parameters, obviously, but and you had lay of the land now, yeah, yeah. So that was about a year and a half in. I think I started doing that. Uh, and that was again that next step. So I think I've always been what's that next step? What's okay, this is good. I probably don't allow myself to enjoy that moment that much because I'm always like, right, okay, this is good. I've achieved this now. And I don't know whether it's my background or that move away or whatever it might be, or one fees into the other, but I've kind of always had that fear, I guess, of not making it. Or that guy who said I wasn't that good. That guy who told me, yeah, if I saw your CV, I would have thrown it away.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:45

Like I'd try to prove him wrong, but you know, those things are in the back of my mind a lot. Um, there's not many people from like my school who have moved away. Um, and there's some very smart people there and have made good careers for themselves, but there's also a lot that have been in prison and have have died. And uh I kind of wondered at some point I thought uh you know why when I used to think, well, it's not for the likes of me. Uh why? It can be.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:15

But Paul, I think what's really interesting though is that you know, imagine your your first trip also away from the family is you went far away. You didn't go to Spain, you didn't go to Jersey.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:27

Although they don't have passports, it doesn't really matter where it's not.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Yeah, you didn't go to the heart of man or whatever. You went literally you went straight to you know the Middle East. Yeah. But you know, from from 2014 to now, even, you know, you've become the group editor of YTP. And and how many publications are you looking after now?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:48

So four at the moment, um, which is Cater and Middle East, which is the F B industry title, which I I love working on. I'm very proud of some of the work we do on that. And you know, I think you know, and everybody who's been on this podcast gets there's some kind of special feeling about the FB industry here, and just to be able to be a small part of that, you know, we're kind of involved but on the sidelines, but I see again back to that early lesson like you're not the story, you guys are the story, and but also the difference with these jobs is you're also the audience. So being able to share the successes of the people in this industry with other members of it, I think is really important. And I've always loved the journey we've been on in Cape Rum Middle East. We haven't always got it right, I think we've we've upset some people along the way sometimes. Um, there's some people that I won't deal with because I didn't like how they operate. Um I there's a lot of people that I think are, I mean, working in the industry is probably a lot more evident, but there's some bullies, there's really passive aggressive people who they bully you in a very soft way, and I found that as well. And I kind of stopped dealing with some people because I just thought, if you're like that with me, but then you're in my publication, or the publication I look after, I'm the custodian of the people that are reading this must also know what you're like. And I'll look silly if I'm saying you're one of the voices that we should be listening to and take notice of. So there's a couple of people that have kind of moved away, not from covering if it's news or that they're doing something good. Of course, that's not how we would operate, but it is a I do see it as a bit of a responsibility as a platform for supporting the good people and the good guys, and I think over the last two years we've got that right, I think, more often than not. But it took time to get there. There's also Hotel Middle East, which is the same idea, but with hotels, obviously some F and B in that as well. Um, and then there's commercial interior design, which is an interior design uh publication again, B2B, and very lucky to help launch Goimio here in the region, which was a journey again thinking about where I started and what I thought I might do when I was growing up to travel into Paris to eat in the best restaurants with the Goimio France team on palette training uh courses and meeting the chief investigator there who'd been doing it for 20 years, and his knowledge just even absorbing one percent of that was amazing. Um, I was in Guisevoir's restaurant meeting the man, you know. I I've got his number, you know, and uh the meal I had there was amazing. I think he lost to Michelin store, but Michelin Goymeo, like Goy Meo, give him a bit more. Michelin takes it away. Sometimes the opposite I don't think it's exactly like that, but sometimes you wonder, especially in in France. Um amazing experiences, and to be able to be on the launch team of that, and I'm still involved a little bit now, but a bit less, you know. You know, David Constable, who we brought over to kind of lead that in a way that we needed a figurehead, whereas my time was split, right? So I did all the training and the investigator stuff and all of that stuff with the team in France and the international teams. Um, but to have somebody who could run it and to to bring somebody like David over who, you know, is a great writer. He's I mean, it's what he does now isn't really the the writing side so much, but just his contacts and his knowledge of the food industry and chefs is amazing. You know, we're about the same age and we've got very similar passions and stuff. Um, so and he's a character again. So I think it's it's nice to know that there's somebody there who has put it on the map, a bit like Mespah has for Cater a little bit as well. And last year, at the end of last year, we you know, we you were involved in it as well, the homemade book that we did in collaboration with uh Dubai Cares, a cookbook with recipes from a lot of people that we love and respect from the industry that we wanted to shine a light on and proceeds called that. Again, like ITP is a big beast of a company, but tries to do everything right, and that is a labour of love and a passion project for a good cause. Yeah, it cost a lot of money to do it, a lot of time. It took two of us eight weeks, and we had to work really quickly. It, you know, the cost of photography, of the editorial team stuff, of the printing, it's a big hardback book as well. Costs a lot of money to do that. We're not making any money on that, there's no ads in it, it's not it's not for that reason. Um, and I'm proud of being able to be part of that as well. And Ms. Burr, who I've worked with for a few years now, kind of took the lead on that, and the feedback from everybody that she went on the shoots with, and with Grace, the photographer as well. Who I again, Grace was my photographer on time at Abidabi, and I always got on with her so well, and she's such a good personality and just a doer that when we had the chance to do this, I she was the person that I really wanted to be able to bring those pictures to life as well, um, which is great.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:17

But that chapter's ending now, so but look, I want to ask you before we get into into that career-defining moment because you you know, after 11 years, you you're you're going to part ways, yeah, which is you know incredibly brave. But but on top of that, Paul, I want to ask you, you know, you've obviously eaten in, as you said, some of the best restaurants in the world. At the same time, you've seen the region evolve. Yeah. And I want to get your thoughts on uh, you know, what what is the best thing that you've seen when it comes to the ever-evolving dining scene, not just in Dubai, but in the Middle East itself.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:02

I think look, we all have opinions on awards, shows, and recognition, and whether it's Mitchell and 50 Best Going or Time Out Awards, whatever it might be, there's people who will, you know, awards and lists are there to be picked apart, right? That's the point. People want to argue with them or agree with them or share them or whatever. Um, there's merit in all of them, and the methods behind all of them are, I believe, steadfast. Uh, certainly the ones that I've been involved in. So from time out to Goimeo and Cater and Hotelia, I know we do them in the right way. People will have their opinions. I know how we do it. You've been judged, yeah. You know um the process. Um, but the bringing, and we brought Goimeo before Michelin came, so I can kind of proudly say that I think ITP has done a great job in helping bring an international set of recognition or standards over, which of course Michelin is part of, and 50 best is part of as well. Like they all exist with slightly different goals and slightly different remit and judging process and stuff like that. But the fact that places here can be judged against restaurants internationally and hopefully to the same criteria. So you go in a Michelin star restaurant here, you should get the same level of experience here. Uh, and the same with going me, oh, three talks, three talks, and all of that I think is important. Um, and I'm proud to have been part of that as well. Uh but obviously the talent and the the people with the money to bankroll these restaurants and stuff are the are the are the the real reason that's happening. Um so I think that kind of rise so it's not just a place people come and go to a Gordon Ramsay restaurant or an Alan Ducasse restaurant, but to go to a Gabriela Chamora restaurant or uh Atma Lanua restaurant, and they are also on these lists against uh like with the names rubbing shoulders with some of the names from New York and London and Paris, I think is uh an amazing part of the F and B scene here. And we started Goimio 2021, I think we first were looking at it, or started working on it, and at that point we were like, there's potential to be up there with these places, and we need to shout about that. And you might remember the first guide was probably a bit not harsh, but there was criticism in there. Not many reviews here actually have critique in them, and we like to think that we do it, it's balanced, and you know, it wasn't we don't like this place because that's not the job, right? It's this place says it does this, but actually, and some of the training I've been through and the and the investigators go through is how do you know if that is a good tomato if you've never had the best tomato? If you've never had the best strawberry, if you've only ever had that, how do you know? Which is why that international exposure is important. And I also think it's really important for chefs um and the writers, so these the people that are writing and are blogging and have the write reviews and chefs who want to make really good restaurants. If you've not been to those places and eaten in those places, those other countries, whether it's fine dinner or not, Jason Atherton did a said something similar to me. What we were doing, uh we have a piece of about seven lessons, which is meant to be seven kind of life lessons, not business lessons. So you get a little bit more about what makes people tick. And one of it, his is great, he got it, and his was like just travel. You can't the more you travel, the better you are at this job. And I think if you've got a chef or a writer that has never experienced what the very best restaurant in this country is like, or the best street food in this country is like, or the traditional food from this place, how can you really judge it or put something against each other? So I think the best chefs here or the best restaurant experiences here are the ones that have got that international experience, but aren't necessarily international names, they're not TV chefs. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, and that's a gateway. We wouldn't be where we are now without that. I wouldn't be into food if I hadn't started cooking for the first time using a Jamie Oliver cookbook. I if I didn't know who Gordon Ramsay was, I would never have saved up to go to Claridges when I was 22 for the first big trip I'd ever had for to go somewhere fancy. So they're super important to get people into food and to get people wanting to experience F and B in a in a in a way, but it's what comes after that needs to sustain it. And I think we're there now in Dubai for sure, Abu Dhabi as well, and hopefully the other Emirates will will join us if they want to. Not every Emirate wants to be a big foodie hub, right? And not every country does, but Saudi's trying a bit, um, but I think Saudi's where we were when I first came, maybe, in terms of let's get all these names in and we'll see what sticks. Yes, yeah, and try and inspire some people to do their own thing along the way. Um, so I think that's the main thing, you know. I I've got a lot of time um for people that put their money where their mouth is and bankroll their own things or the thing, the the projects of people that they believe in. Um, like look at CQ Brasserie, I was talking to Ziyad, and they're also kind of the business partners of Gabriela Girl and the Goose, you know. Um it's nice to see nice people do well. Obviously, you can make it in the industry without being like a good guy. Um, it's probably harder to make it if you are like nice, decent operators dealing with nice people and doing trying to do something in a way that you feel disrespectful and has value. But when those things do well, I think they've got a lot more soul when you're in that place, and I think they've got a much better chance of longevity for the people that want to eat there rather than we'll try it once and maybe that's it. I think once you go somewhere and you can feel that and you know the people that are running it, or kind of there's heart and soul behind it. I think that is for me what makes you go back. And in my job over the years, very much a case of I'll go to a restaurant once to review it, but then I've got another new restaurant to go to, right? So it used to be that I would never really go back to places, so I I kind of again subconsciously, if I go back somewhere. I'm always like, yeah, that must be really good because I could just go to another new place to check it out. And they're not the fancy places more often than not. I, you know, it's it's one life. It's um Girl and the Goose, it's CQ, it's Cafe Isan, you know, it's these places that have a little bit more down to earth, perhaps, and have got somebody there that you can see is cooking or is on the floor and low, I think, as well. Great. Um, it's these places that for me are the ones that I like to eat in more, and I and I'm happy to give my custom and money and business to the people that are running them. And I think more of them we have, the better it is for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:41

Well, the big question then, Paul, that everyone is asking is you know, why have you decided, you know, after such an incredible time, you know, over 11 years, yeah, to then you know move away from such a big house to do your own thing. So what what what what is on the horizon?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:59

You know what? Um, I think by the time this comes out, I'll have I'll have left. And at the moment, it's that's about three weeks ago, and I don't know. Um, I've got ideas. Why have I decided to move on? I think I think I've achieved what I can achieve uh with the things I work on. Um for me, ITP is the biggest and best publishing house here. I don't really want to work for another publishing house. I don't want to work for another magazine because in my mind, these are the ones that are the ones to be. And I've taken them on a journey, I think, whether that's time at Abu Dabi, Cater, a hotel or CID. Um maybe it's just time for some fresh ideas on those things, you know. I think I'd like to think I've done a good enough job over the years that I would I could have a job at ITP for life. Well, you never know, but I'd like to think that I would never be forced out the door. So I'm not the same position as what I said when I've when I decided to leave the UK. But yeah, you know, I'm I'm 44, soon to be 45. I've got a daughter now, um, she's six. I've gone through a breakup, I've got a new partner. Um I've struggled. I've I had diagnosed with OCD about four years ago, which showed itself in various different forms of anxiety, and I've been through therapy, I've put a lot of weight on, trying to lose some weight, look after myself a bit more, loved exercise, kept out of exercise, probably drank too much and gone the other way too much. And now I'm that experience or this all happened since 2024, let's say, those experiences have kind of made me re-evaluate what my next step is. So at the minute, I think I've probably got one big career move left in me. Whether I have different jobs going forward, probably, but you know, I'm I'm not a guy to jump ship from jobs. You know, I had worked at a bank for seven years. Yes, yeah. Newspaper I was there for three, four years. This 11 years, the longest I've ever had a job. Um, so I'm not looking for like loads of different things. I still want to be employed, I still want that security of a visa and salary if anybody's listening. Um, I can do freelance, I'm sure. Yeah. Um, what I do want to do is and not to step on your toes, but I've always enjoyed the moderating and the panels and the in-person stuff, which haven't been able to do that much of uh in my current role or the the role I'm leaving because we do our own things, right? I get asked to do a lot of stuff and I've kind of had to pass them on or step away from them. So I'd love to do a bit more of that. Uh and you know, I've always enjoyed the stuff uh at Gulf Food. I mean, we've done some of that stuff together and an ATM and the hotel side, and also the design side is a lot more niche. There's not that many people, look, the FB space where people want to moderate those panels and turn over those things is oversaturated, I think. So while I think I have there's merit in my experience and and uh my voice being part of that conversation, I wouldn't be as presumptuous to think I'll just step into that arena and just stop hiring all of these guys that do it right now. But I think in the design space, there's there's a bit of that, and that's also something I'm still learning and learning more about. So I think it's a challenge. I want to push myself again. I want to do something different. Like I say, I don't think I'll work for another publisher. I've had a couple of things crop up, but you know, like everybody who leaves journalism, there's probably some PR on the horizon. Um, but I'd like to think if that is the journey I go down, I'm gonna do something that still really resonates with F and B community. And I do have a plan that I'm hoping to get off the ground if somebody wants to uh support it in whatever my next role is, which is to do with chefs and showcasing their talents from here on the world stage, which I think it's it's with it's time for that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:56

Absolutely, but then Paul, I you know, we get a lot of people from all over the world uh watching and listening the show, um, and specifically now, there's a couple of things that you touched upon which I think are really important. Um so first of all, I want to ask how can writers or budding journalists, let's say, who are coming to this part of the world not get into trouble, not get into hot water by writing. So, for example, uh, if you take quite an aggressive market, which is either London or New York, when it comes to the food critic space, that there's always um the the main aim is to take swipes and to make it entertainment rather than objective, yeah. But here you can't necessarily do that. So, what are your tips and advice on that, first of all?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:51

So I think that's really interesting and important point because if you hear what Marina or Jay Rayner says about their job, they see themselves as journalists who work for a newspaper, they're they're writing a story. So their job is to get more people to want to buy that newspaper. So what does that more is people share the negative reviews or the ones where they've taken somebody down, or some sacred cow that they've kind of lambasted or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:20

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:20

Um, and people want to read that because it's fun, right? People take joy in seeing other people get cut down to size, whatever it might be. And I've seen friends of mine get that. Friends from here that have opened restaurants there, chefs I know from the UK who've, you know, whether it's uh it's Jay Marina or um oh who am I thinking of? What's her name? Chris Dent. Um, you know, I've had messages of people, how dare how can they write that? Like you, you're in it. Tell me how can they do this? I'm like, well, they can because their job is to tell newspapers, not to keep your restaurant open, it's not really to get people to go into your restaurant. No, I think it's a bit different here. Yeah. And I think all the time from timeout, our the mantra of time out is we want to tell people how they can spend their time and money better. Um, and if we can give them a deal along the way, which is obviously a big part of the content for timeout, then even better. But it's we're telling people about this restaurant is it worth the money that you'll spend there? And taking the time out of your life to do that. And again, I think the way you should operate here is keep that in mind. We're not here to ruin businesses, we're not here to make fun of a restaurant that maybe isn't great or a chef that's overstretched and it's and it maybe's falling short of what you expect of them. Um, we're here as part of that ecosystem. Like, look at where we are at the moment with a lot of support for each other and a lot of camaraderie and pride in where we are and the way it looks after each other. Like, let's keep take that into what we do and how we write as well. Yes, you can get into trouble here by writing the wrong thing. Uh, like I said before, kind of slander and libel is is is hot here. So you can't really defame anybody, and by that I mean make lower their standing in the eyes of others, is what it is. So if I say something really critical about you, and you say my business partners are gonna not respect me now, or I'm over, my business is over, or my family's over. Um, you know, my family are gonna think less of me, like I'm in trouble. Um, in the UK, in New York, you know, not so much. Yeah, somebody could try and sue you, but you just say, Well, no, he isn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:49

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:50

Um, and I think the other thing is like, again, it's difficult in times like this, but we're not we're not war correspondents, we're not political journalists. Let's stay away from religion, yeah, sex, yeah, drugs, politics. And in in a normal, regulated role working for a company, that's the four things to stay away from, I would say. So if you're not employed by somebody and you're writing on your own blog or on your own website or on you're doing a video on whatever it might be, you still have to be bound by those rules or those considerations because you're still publishing something. And whereas the laws about what is publishing and is a podcast publishing or is a video on TikTok publishing, there will be laws written and they will be based on an example. So you could be that example and you don't want to be that. Yeah, so yeah, stay clear of that and try not to offend anybody personally. If that if this restaurant says it is this, but they're not delivering to the level that they promise or the ingredients that should be in those dishes for the price you're paying at the place you're sitting, then of course say like that's fallen short and we expected this, but don't say that restaurant's rubbish and the chef doesn't know what he's doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:19

Because again, another good lesson from the Goymeo training that I had when I was in France for the first time, like I say, there's always things that keep in the back of my mind from all of these experiences, and one of them is where there to chef chefs are the stars for Going Mayo, like they're champions of chefs. So while it's absolutely right that there should be some balanced critique of restaurants and and the cooking, and there's a very long list of things to look at, by the way. It's not, I don't think it's very good. It's really not personal at all when you come to this kind of scoring. It's very systematic and it's based on facts. Do is the tomato local? Is it not? Is it you know, it was it too cold? Has it is it has it been there for too long? Uh is this defrosted? Is this shrimp previously defrosted and all of that? It's not, did you think it was a nice shrimp or a nice tomato? It's factually, and then you get different points on all of these things, brilliant, and that comes, there's a huge score at the end of it, and then a crazy algorithm that I can't work out that takes it to the score out of 20.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:26

And that is what the awards and the book is based on. So it's not actually, I just don't like going into that restaurant because then Parkinson's are like, eh, yeah, there might be a score that is part of the score might be attributed to that, but that won't override everything, and the main driver is the food. Yeah, they're like 80% of the score is the food and the quality of produce.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:47

But then the other one I wanted to get your thoughts on is and you touched upon it earlier, is uh the rise of the food influencers, right? Because you get ones who are, you know, there's just different brackets, I would say, of a food influencer. You've got the the guys who are, as you said, well off, they pay for expensive meals but don't necessarily have the bandwidth to sort of articulate what they need to say. Yeah, then you've got the guys who are on on TikTok, you know, like this Todd guy eating with Todd, you know, so he's just eating everything and then saying, hey guys, you should do this, and then you've got the ones who are sort of wannabes.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:28

It must be quite difficult in the landscape of true journalism to factor out who is fantastic, who is fake, and and and who do you work with. Yeah. You know, I think that's a struggle in in in PR, I think it's a struggle with chefs, I think it's a struggle with restaurants. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:49

What can I say out loud? Um I am from an era and I'm not old, but you know, it wasn't long after typewriters stopped being in newsrooms when I when I joined, um, that it it grits on me a bit. And I don't begrudge anybody success if they work hard and they and they're good or they care and they're knowledgeable, good, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:18

Uh if people want to engage with it, people want to employ you, pay you to do something, or bring you in as a as a partner on something, good for you. But I struggled with it for a long time. Like I said, I I had to take money that I'd never had before and pay my way to do a course when I was a grown man, do work experience. Yeah. Um the relationship I had at that point broke down because of that. Um, because it was this intense five months, and I uh wanted to be a journalist at the end of it and work in news. I've knocked on people's doors and interviewed them about their dead kids. I've had syringes sent to me in the post, I've been attacked, I've been, you know, I have done all of those hard yards for the chance to do what I do now, as what I always thought.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:07

And the journey used to be that not many people go, I'm just gonna be the food writer for The Guardian now. You know, that's not the journey. You know, they J Rey now's a journalist, he's a news reporter. Like, these people have done that journey. But I think now there is a tendency to be like, and I wanted to be a music writer and a travel writer and a food writer once I all of these things came together. But I didn't think I was just gonna walk into that job. I thought I'm gonna have to do an apprenticeship here, learn how to write, learn how to talk to people, learn how to tell stories, and then get the chance to do the kind of nice stuff, which is where I feel I'm lucky enough to have got to. Um anybody who thinks to just go in at that level and can suddenly be an authority on that stuff, I think they're in they're in danger of missing the point, making their mistakes. There's some reviews here, they're like thousands and thousands of words long. Like, I don't I don't care that much about your writing to know to read all of that. You know, even again, news journalism, another rule. Stories have got a hierarchy. You've got a 300-word news story. The drop-off point of 70% of readers is after the fifth paragraph, which is probably about 50 words. So you read a news story, the first sentence should tell you everything you need to know about that story. The second one should tell you the next level down of information, the third one should give you the other information that's good to know. Then there's probably a quote from somebody. The bit in the last paragraph, right at the end of the story, if you never read that in your entire life, it would make no difference. That is like a little bit of extra info that is you know nice to have. If I'm reading a review, again, if it's not a name of somebody that I really care about, I don't want to read a thousand words. And that's me who cares about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:04

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:44:05

So I think there's also the lack of editing, yes, and you know, editors are important, everybody benefits from having an editor. Um, people who write a book and publish it that don't have an editor, you know, self-publishing, it won't be as good as if they had an editor. And I feel the same way about a lot of this content.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:25

Wow, love that. Now, Paul, we've come to the uh quick firing extended for you. Now, I'm gonna push this one out to you, even though you're not a chef, but I'm interested in this. Can you tell me your favorite ingredient?

SPEAKER_02 1:44:43

Um chorizo.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:47

Oh nice! I like it. I think that's the first time we've ever had it on the show, by the way. Yeah, um, so I like that. Yeah, chorizo. Uh spicy or pickled? Spicy. Oh, I thought you were gonna say pickled. Uh fish and chips or pie and chips? Fish and chips, uh, cassettes or LPs? LPs, you know that uh newspaper or online? Newspaper every day. Uh Negroni or Pint. Oh. Can I have a chase there? Yeah. Um, it's a it's a pint. Okay. Uh now the last one, especially for you, and I'm glad I'm doing this. Peas pudding or Penaculty.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:32

Oh, okay. Um, Pinnacle.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:36

Now, from all I mean, I'm talking about this moment right now. What would you say are your top three favorite cuisines to eat?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:46

Oh, cuisines, okay. I always love Spanish food. Um, I don't think we have enough good Spanish food in Dubai. Oh, brilliant, okay. And I don't think that's been the case in all the time I've been here, I haven't been a bit years. Um, I love Spanish food in the way you get it in Spain. Yeah, pinchos, tapas. Um, I love it. Also, the main ingredient is my favorite ingredient. Um less available here than it is in Spain, I guess. Yeah, um, so I love Spanish food. So it's that is number one. Greek, I think, is number two. Um I love being in Greece, the islands, Athens, uh Cyprus is one of my favorite places to go, and obviously there's a big Greek influence there. Yeah, um, so I think again for that, it's just the ingredients. Like it is kind of said it before, but that tomato tastes better. Yeah, the halloumi tastes better, um, the olive oil, the herbs, the potatoes, especially Cypriot chips, the best chips on the plant.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:52

Really? Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:54

Yeah, so Cypriot. Okay, third one. Um I'll go a bit spicier and a bit more exotic, I guess, but um Vietnamese.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:08

Oh, good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:09

Um, so much flavor, yeah, the herbs, the depth of flavour that are in the noodle soups, whether it's fur or or or anything else, you know. I was in Saigon, and I a lot of the time I don't know what I was eating. It was like I was not in the middle of Ho Chi Minh City, I was staying in the outskirts for a lot of time. I was there, and when I go to a city, one of the one of my pet previews is when you go, Hey, I'm going to Ho Chi Minh City, have you got any recommendations? Someone goes, Take a three-hour bike ride. And I'm like, No, I'm not, I'm going to Hochi Min City. I've not got three hours away. That's a different holiday. For me, when I go to a city, I go to the city and I try and see as much of it as possible, two weeks or whatever it might be, not just the city centre, the outskirts, go down the back alleys and all of that. And Ho Chi Minh City is the place more than anywhere else, more than Bangkok for me, where you go down a little alley, and you found something amazing. That it's the one place in the world that I think it's worth checking out that back lane or going up a floor to see what's up there. And some of the best food I've ever had in my life was there. I loved it so much. Um, and again, there's a couple of good places do it here. Obviously, we know Lily and Vietnamese foodies. There's some smaller little kind of delivery places that do it quite well as well. Um, still sorry, Lily, it's not the same as having it in H. But uh, it's it's great. That's my three favourite.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:37

And then who would you say then are your top three either food heroes, but they don't necessarily need to be chefs.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:46

Okay. Uh okay. As a writer. Sounds a bit big-headed. As a journalist, as a writer, as a food kind of reviewer, I don't think anybody beats Adrian Gill, Gill. I mean, what a he's not everybody loved him, but I think the way he wrote and his opinions and how he wrote about restaurants, I think, is just second and on. I don't think he'll be topped, you know, he's died too young. If you anybody who hasn't read his stuff, there's collections of his. I mean, even I've got a collection of his TV reviews. Yeah, it's not even food. Um, but if you can get any of his stuff, especially people who want to be food writers, just see how you do it properly. I could never match up to that. So him. Uh look, it's a it's a strange one. Uh but I think he just can't look past Gordon Ramsay in terms of what he's achieved and what he's kickstart. It's not necessarily about the food that he cooks or his restaurant. I don't really go to Gordon Ramsay restaurants that much, but again, I think between him and Gary Rhodes, Jamie Oliver to some extent as well. Democratised cooking and restaurants. So people thought they could cook at home, maybe try and cook something a bit better than they tried to cook before, but also through the TV could see more restaurants and stuff like that and be exposed to a different way of cooking. And I think Gordon Ramsay's legacy is more might not be where he would like it to lie, I don't know, but it's more in just how available he's made other chefs as well. Like let's not forget the people that have worked for him that are stars in their own right, like that's Jason or Marcus Warren, um I'm saying people who've been here um as well. Uh Nick and Scott, even, you know. Yeah. Um I how many times have people said Anthony Bordean on this podcast?

SPEAKER_00 1:50:50

He's one of the most common.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:51

Yeah. So we do the similar thing on Cater. We have like some quick fire questions, and three which three guests would you invite to a dinner party? He's in every single person. So I'm not gonna say Anthony Bourdain, although he is really, yeah, he is, he is. Um, so my third one would probably be um food hero. Let's think of somebody here, and uh he's been on the show, and it's my favourite episode of the show, and I'm lucky enough to call him a friend, uh, but call it Colin Glick. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I love him, and also I I love listening to this podcast, but sometimes you get people on that just speak normally, and I think he was just himself on this, and he's also a guy that his stories I'll be having a beer with him. And he's like, Well, you know, that time I opened whatever, wherever, with this kind. I'm like, when? When did you do that? Like, I thought you were doing this, and he's like, Oh no, I was in like Singapore for two years, I was in uh Melbourne for two years or whatever, and you know, I was when I was in London and I worked with John Toreau there, and I'm like, How when this timeline happened? Because I always thought he was close to me in age, but I've worked out he's older than he looks.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:06

But also, I think the the amount of respect people have for him, yeah, and he doesn't realize what a figurehead he is. Yeah, he doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:13

Because again, he's not, and I and I come back to this, there's a kind of warped idea of authenticity, especially in F and B, I think, and and also in Dubai, I think there's authentic and who's authentic and what food's authentic. It's it's that's a construct in itself, I think. I think when you're authentic to yourself and what you believe in and the food you want to cook, or or what you want to say out loud, that's a rare commodity. Yeah, and he does that, and that's why he's respected, and that's why I respect him because he never pretends to be anything that he's not, and he's not telling those stories to show off. Yeah, he's telling those stories because there's something funny in it, normally, or you know, it it puts his background and what he does into perspective, and he doesn't show off again. He's not bothered about being on the cover of a magazine, or he's not bothered about winning an award or being a judge, or he does those things and he's great at them. Yeah, um, so yeah, uh you owe me a pint call. He's a legend.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:10

Now, the final question what advice would you give to a 16-year-old Paul Clifford?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:18

Believe in yourself earlier. Um look, everybody's experiences lead them to where they are. So uh probably have some regrets and certain things I've done or said over the years, or decisions I've made. Ultimately I'm where I am now, and I and all of those things lead up to this point, and I've still got a bright future ahead of me, I think, and a you know, a lovely daughter, and hopefully a you know a a a new family as I as I get older. Um but believing myself earlier would be the main one because yeah, I spent too long in that bank, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:00

Do you know do you know who else was in uh w worked in a bank for some time who is like a massive foodie influencer now? You know Alex from um the food guy, the food guy, yeah. So he he worked in a bank for some time. He's just you know, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:18

So again, Alex's content is great, but it's entertainment, right? It's entertainment, and uh I think again there needs to be a distinction, and I'm not knocking his achievements at all, and I don't think he's trying to be anything other than entertaining and talk about cool food places in Dubai. Yeah, doesn't seem to take himself too seriously, yeah, which I think is another important point. Once you start believing your hype and you take yourself too seriously, you're heading down the wrong route, yeah, in my whatever your job is. Um, and I think that's that's why I like him, and that's another thing. I find pandas rolling down hills really entertaining on TikTok and Instagram, but doesn't really mean I'm an expert in it or I want to make that content myself, and I just like it. I also like his videos where he's eating like big kebabs and stuff like that. Um, I'm not gonna put him on the same level as Gil. Sorry, Alex, but I think there's just got to be an understanding that you can do that and do really well in it, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean you're this.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:15

Absolutely, yeah, brilliant, Paul. Now, if anybody wants to get hold of you through social media, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:23

Yeah, so I'm on Instagram, PD Clifford at PD Clifford. It's private at the moment, but I'm probably gonna open that up now. I need offers to go. Um LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, I posted a lot about work on LinkedIn. Obviously, that's my name. Don't message me on LinkedIn because that will get lost.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:40

Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:41

Um, but yeah, Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:42

So, what I'll do is I'll put all of those details in the show notes. And now, Paul, on behalf of the Chef JKP podcast, it has been absolutely fascinating to have you on the show. I want to say thank you so much for you know really being so open and telling us your story and also all of the phenomenal advice that's been out there. Um, I'm not going to wish you the best of luck because you don't need it. I know that the next step that you can take in your career is going to be absolutely incredible. And um please do not stop the passion that you have for putting stories out there, for for giving people platforms, and also make sure that you also give yourself a pat on the back occasionally because you really deserve it. And uh and from the chefs from the industry that you know, I've been here for 14 years, and you have been a key major player in everybody's success. So I just wanted to also say thank you so much on behalf of everyone who's not able to say that because honestly, it's uh it means a huge deal to everyone. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:37

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I don't see it that way myself, but thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:43

Cheers, chefs, Paul. Thank you so so much. What I enjoyed about this conversation is that it reminded me that behind every successful business, every great restaurant, every personal brand, and every memorable experience, there is a beautiful story to be heard. And just think about it. The people who understand storytelling often have a remarkable ability to shape the future. As we know, over the past two decades, Paul has sat on both sides of the table. He has interviewed leaders, challenged ideas, uncovered trends, and now helped businesses communicate who they truly are and why they matter. For me, the biggest takeaway is simple. Attention may get people to look, but authenticity is where it makes them stay. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please support the show by subscribing, by sharing it to all of your friends, and make sure to leave us a review wherever you can. And if there's someone in your life who is building a business, growing a brand, or trying to tell a better story, send them this episode. I think it'll help them a lot. Thank you so much for joining us today for another episode of the Chef JKP podcast. Absolute legend just waiting till the end. Till next time, food is memories.