Chris Bowker and Bryan White, Co-Founders of PreIntent, share their strategies to improve engagement during the hiring process and some of the data and strategies that have made their clients so successful.
Chris Bowker and Bryan White, Co-Founders of PreIntent, share their strategies to improve engagement during the hiring process and some of the data and strategies that have made their clients so successful.
Linda Leekley (00:09):
Hi everyone, this is Linda Leekley, chief Clinical Officer from hcp.
Amanda Sternklar (00:13):
And I'm Amanda Sternklar, our Director of marketing,
Linda Leekley (00:16):
And you're listening to Vision, the podcast for leaders and forward thinkers in the care industry. Today we're gonna focus on one of the most requested topics that we hear about at hcp, and that's how to get care professionals to show up to both interviews and their first shift. So, to, to talk about this, we're joined by the experts, Chris Bowker and Brian White, co-founders of prentent. They're gonna share their strategies with us and some of the data that's made their clients so successful.
Amanda Sternklar (00:47):
Thank you guys so much for joining us. Preintent is an automated outreach. It's an interview scheduling platform that's designed for recruiting care professionals, <laugh> on a monthly basis, they send over a million text messages to about a hundred thousand candidates. Part of why I was so excited to have them on the show today, <laugh> and that's led to more than 38,000 scheduled interviews monthly. Chris and Brian, thank you again for your time. Really excited to have you here.
Brian White (01:13):
Glad to be here. Our pleasure.
Chris Bowker (01:16):
Thank you so much.
Linda Leekley (01:17):
Yeah, absolutely. We're so excited about this. So, so let's start with, it's probably the top question on everybody's mind. Who's listening? What is the biggest determinant in your opinion, of whether a candidate shows up for the interview?
Brian White (01:33):
Yeah, great question and a good place to get started. What we have found, it's speed and convenience. Okay. Often when folks are looking for new employment, they're doing so with urgency. We have found that the average job seeker is going on to job boards and they're applying to a dozen different positions. They're scheduling four to five different interviews, but typically they're only attending one or two of 'em. Okay? So it's crucial to not only, you know, interview for the interview to be scheduled right away. It's crucial for the interview to take place. If a candidate schedules an interview with you for next week sometime, it's extremely likely that they have other interviews scheduled before yours. So for every interview that they attend, the likelihood of them ghosting you increases. We have found that if the interview does not take place within the first 48 hours, the no-show rate can increase by 50% or more, right? And so if you're only conducting interviews one or two days a week as is, right? That's probably not gonna cut it. You're missing a ton of folks for that reason alone. Increasing interview availability has an immediate positive impact on interview show rates. And then you can also increase your interview density by even double booking interview time slots. But the biggest thing is the speed in which not only the interview is booked, but actually taking place.
Linda Leekley (03:12):
That, that really makes a lot of sense. I mean, I'll see, I'll see home care owners talk about you know, all the nohow and I think they sort of take it personally, but it really is just a matter of, of sort of speed, right? As you say, and how quickly they get going.
Brian White (03:28):
Absolutely. And I mean, we, go ahead, Chris.
Chris Bowker (03:31):
I say we, we all wish that, you know, when they, when they booked four interviews, they'd weigh their options on who offered the best job at the breast rate and the best benefits and had the best culture. But that's not, that's not the case. Typically, for the most part, it's, you know, oh, this job fit my needs, I'm gonna go ahead and start with them. Right? and then how quickly can they get, you know, onboarded, hired and start work is kind of the next metrics. But yeah. I think Brian nailed it. Like with speed, there's so many metrics in, there's speed to contact, speed to interview schedule, speed to the interview happening. Like it's a compounding effect in your recruiting process.
Amanda Sternklar (04:08):
If they're, like Brian mentioned, if they're just looking for urgent, like if they're looking for work urgently, the first, you know, first person they talk to is who can offer them a job is probably gonna be the one to best meet that need <laugh>. But you know, say you live in a perfect world that I envy where you already have the best process that you can create today. What's the next largest factor in show rates for interviews?
Chris Bowker (04:33):
Yeah I'll take this one. It's a great question. And this comes back to the softer side of recruiting. I think friendliness of the recruiter is, is what we talk about a lot here. And I think that has a huge impact on show rates, right? The recruiter is the face of your company, and that's all the candidate knows of your company, is really their engagement and interaction with the recruiter. How responsive were they? How do they treat them on the phone? Those type of things. I think one of the big paradigm shifts that we've seen in recruiters over the past, like since Covid, is they went from being people that were trying to weed out and qualify and make sure they were only bringing in qualified candidates for the interview to really trying to bring in anybody and everybody who is minimally qualified for the job.
Chris Bowker (05:18):
And so that phone screen or that initial first contact went from, you know, a judgemental phone call or a call where you're trying to qualify someone to just a call where you're trying to get to know them as a person and answer their questions and have this friendliness factor, right? Because at the end of the day, we see a lot of companies and, and a lot of the successful companies all kind of fall in the same range of pay rates and, and benefits and perks, and they all try to have great company culture and that's why they're successful companies. And so if your competition is very similar to you, the only other factor that you can really create a competitive advantage on is have the friendliest recruiter. And that just prevents other people from coming in and feeling that candidate. You know, when, when they're going through that process. Cuz we tell businesses, when you are done interacting with a candidate, you have to assume that your number one competitor is calling them next, right? And is the question is, is are there cracks or chinks or did you leave a door open for them to come into? Or does that candidate say, man, I'm really excited to meet this company that was the nicest recruiter I ever spoke to. Right? And if the, if that's the answer, you, you've prevented that candidate from being stolen or more likely being stolen. But friendliness is key, I think.
Linda Leekley (06:37):
Great, great advice. So does the type of interview that you offer whether it's in person on the phone or a virtual zoom meeting, whatever, does that influence the show rate at all?
Chris Bowker (06:53):
Linda? That's a great question. We get that ask that a lot when we're, we're talking with customers about, you know, should we do virtual interviews in office interviews, phone interviews? And we've seen different strategies work very successfully. You know, across small and large companies we've seen just phone interviews or just virtual, just in office, all work. What we've seen though, that, that I think is more important is in office interviews lead to the most success downstream and in the hiring process. And if done right and in-office interviews, you know, one of the big things of caregiving is, is showing up on time in the right place, you know, presentable, right? Like that's part of just being a caregiver, part of the requirements of a caregiver. And, and having an office interviews allows you to check that box really quickly. The second thing is, in an in office interview, you have a captive audience.
Chris Bowker (07:44):
So now you can make sure all the paperwork gets done. You can schedule orientation and really good teams will walk that candidate around the office and introduce 'em to other people in the office and really make them feel a part of the team, right? And so you create this a little bit more stickiness in that candidate to show up for the next step of the process, which is typically orientation and, and training, right? Linda? Good, good old training. So in office has, it is, is pros, but virtual and phone have its place as well. So we talk to a lot of agencies. Not every territory is built the same. If you're in Pittsburgh and people have to cross rivers to come to the interview, it's not happening, right? If you're in a big rural area and people are driving 45 minutes to the interview, probably not happening, it's gonna lead to no shows.
Chris Bowker (08:34):
So in some cases, virtual interviews are really, really, really helpful because they are phone interviews cuz they allow that interview to happen quickly and it's more convenient for the candidate, right? And overall the best show rate is gonna be whatever the candidate is most comfortable with, right? And so if the candidate would prefer a virtual interview, you're more likely to share to a virtual interview. If they preferred in-office, in person, maybe they're a little bit older or a little bit more traditional of a, a applicant, they might prefer that in-office interview. And so it's really important if you can offer multiple types of interviews. But what we always tell clients, our best advice is make sure your recruiter has at least two types of interviews in their, in their tool chest, right? So kind of a use case on this your, the recruiter's on the phone with a candidate, today's Wednesday, they can't come in until Monday.
Chris Bowker (09:28):
Well, that's a weekend. The no-show rate after a weekend just goes down, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so for other reason, they have work, they're traveling, whatnot. That recruiter should be able to say, Hey, if I send you a Zoom link, can you jump on a zoom call right now and let's do the interview right now, and then I can make a job offer. And Monday when you come in, you know, then we're doing paperwork and orientation potentially, right? And the whole goal that recruiters is just to get that candidate off the job market and, and lock them down and secure them for the next step when, when needed, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so I think arming your recruiters with that ability to shift quickly and easily between interview types is, is really allows them to be successful.
Linda Leekley (10:10):
Chris, something you said wrote at the beginning of of answering this question was that in-person interviews were the best if done, right? So what does that mean? What or, or what is a what is an interview done wrong in person?
Chris Bowker (10:25):
Yeah, I think if someone's coming in and it, it's really quick on an in-person interview, 15 minutes and they're back out the door and you haven't built the rapport with them. Like you have this captive audience and it's so important to get them as far down the, the hiring funnel as possible in that one meeting, you know, we see people, they'll come in for an in-office interview, and then they're like, oh, you know, you're gonna have to go do these other steps and then we'll let you know if we make a job offer. Like, if they can't walk out your doors without a job offer in hand, right? And otherwise they're literally going less than a mile down the road and finding another home care agency and walking in their doors. You should just assume that
Linda Leekley (11:06):
That makes sense. So, so sort of related to that, what about the method of, of communication? Is it better to, you know, when you've got a candidate on, on, on the hook, maybe is it better to email them right away, call them, text them something else? What's, what's been your experience?
Brian White (11:24):
Yeah I'll take this one. I'll share some numbers to, to start with. So 80% of outbound phone calls end up going to a voicemail, right? And so anybody who's made outbound calls knows, you know, you're actually more surprised when the person answers the phone. <Laugh>, you're, you're right, you're clearing your throat, preparing, getting ready to leave the voicemail that you've left hundreds of time <laugh>, right? And when they answer it, it takes you off guard. But there's value in leaving voicemails, but it sure takes a lot of time in, in doing it right? Only 20% of emails even get opened, right? So, so that's not a whole lot better. But over 95% of text messages are read within the first three minutes of being sent. So text messaging, you know, is also the most used form of communication by Americans under 50 years old.
Brian White (12:26):
So text messaging is the clear winner when it comes to contacting the most people as quickly as possible. Now, that doesn't mean that you wanna completely disregard emails because they do still receive 20% open rate, but if email is your first or only form of communication, you're missing out on a ton of candidates, right? Text messaging really is the game changer. The offices that we see having the most success are doing everything right. They're leaving voicemails, they're sending emails, they're sending text messages. If you wanted to put an order of operations together, I would say send the text message first right away because it has the highest contact rate. But then you don't want to just send one text message in one email. You want to send these multiple times over multiple days because they're applying to multiple positions, right? And you want to cut through all the noise. And so there's value in all of them, but the ones you're gonna see have the most immediate impact is texting. If you're not utilizing texting as part of your recruiting process right now, that's probably the one thing that you can do to have the biggest impact is find some form to communicate via text message.
Amanda Sternklar (13:48):
You mentioned multiple times over multiple days. Do you guys have a specific length of time or frequency of contact that you see work the best? I feel like it's kind of a delicate balance between, you know, wanting to show enthusiasm and stalking, you know, stalking <laugh>.
Brian White (14:05):
Yeah, absolutely. So some of the campaigns that we have built out that our clients are using the first four days is dense outreach. So the first day is a voicemail, a text message, and an email all three. And our system uses automated voicemail drops. So the recruiter just has to record one voicemail and that automatically gets sent out to the candidates. But day one, voicemail, text, email, and then for the next three days, sending another text and another email. So it's four days of very heavy outreach. What we have found is if they do not take the next step in that time, it's typically because their situation is already changed, right? Meaning they found another job. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But we also know that frontline employees, their situation can change. Often that job that they just accepted, you know, might not end up being the opportunity that, that they had hoped it was. And so we recommend putting 'em on a three week pause and then putting them into a drip campaign. Our system puts 'em into a nine month drip campaign where they continue to receive one text message and one email per month just to keep a line in the water with these folks. So when they do go back into that candidate pool, you're top of mind in the best place to catch 'em.
Linda Leekley (15:31):
That makes good sense for sure.
Amanda Sternklar (15:35):
This is jumping back a bit but I know Linda mentioned that a lot of folks can take interview Nohow personally which is kind of understandable. But when we were preparing for this episode, we talked about something I don't think folks consider super frequently, which is just nohow happening because of anxiety. You know, candidates either they get lost and they're a little bit late, and rather than show up to an interview five minutes late, cause we have it, you know, drilled into us how important timeliness is they just don't show up and they stop answering or you know, maybe they just don't know if they're in the right place, they don't know where to park. And interviews are already enough anxiety. Can you share some of the tips your clients use that improve show rates by addressing anxiety specifically?
Brian White (16:23):
Yeah. you know, before an interview, I think we'd all like to prepare thoroughly, you know, get a good night's sleep arrive early. But in reality as recruiters, you're prompting the candidate to book that interview with you as soon as possible, like maybe this afternoon or tomorrow morning. So you're removing a lot of the time that they did have to prepare, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So the offices that are having the best show rates are recognizing this, and they're giving the candidates everything they need to feel comfortable and prepared. So as soon as the interview's scheduled, they're sending a confirmation to them that includes a picture of the office front, right? So they can recognize the building the offices that are going over and beyond, or actually having the recruiter step outside in front of the office and be in the picture of the office front.
Brian White (17:20):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So, so now they are no longer a stranger. This is a familiar face <laugh> that they're going to be recognizing once they get to the office. And so sending the picture of the office, they're also including driving directions, instructions on where to park, any items that need to be brought along with them. We have even seen offices that are particularly hard to find. They'll record a video, right? They'll record a video on where to park, how to locate the office, they'll upload that onto YouTube and then send the link to the candidates, right? And then we also know that some candidates are gonna be more introverted, right? And just the word anxiety alone, or excuse me, the word interview alone creates anxiety mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so offering virtual interviews for those candidates and instead of referring 'em to, referring to 'em as interviews, referring to 'em as appointments and meetings.
Brian White (18:28):
And instead of, I'm looking forward to our interview, I'm looking forward to visiting with you soon, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, but it's more of a, of a open conversation. And so just giving them all the information that they need to feel prepared, knowing that you're not really giving them enough time to be fully prepared. We have one office that just recently started providing the questions that they will be asking during the interview. They're just telling 'em, these are the five questions that we're going to ask come prepared. And so that remains to be seen if that works or not. Maybe that's something that I can report back to you guys on.
Linda Leekley (19:09):
I'd love to hear a follow up. Yeah, that would be really interesting to know. But, but all the tips you gave are great. I mean, I love the idea of the recruiter being in the photo and having the, you know, I can imagine if you've, if you've got the option of working in several different places, you know, you're in demand and you're driving around trying to find a place and you can't locate it or you can't find the parking, it'd be simple to just go home, keep on going, right? Yeah. Just forget it.
Brian White (19:36):
Well, and a lot of folks would prefer to instead of going through the uncomfortableness of being late and having to explain that, that's, that's enough to cause anxiety right there mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so they'll just leave. And so just even letting them know, Hey, we realize this is gonna be your first time coming to our office if you're a few minutes late, that's understandable. And almost to be expected, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, and just letting them know that mm-hmm.
Linda Leekley (20:04):
<Affirmative>.
Chris Bowker (20:05):
And, and I think a great way to handle Nohow as well, just to kind of bring, bring in another topic is that a lot of caregivers's lives are very unpredictable, right? Just in the nature when we talk about we were sitting through one of John Free's talks recently, and he was talking about how, you know, a vast majority of caregivers are on Medicaid or some sort of government assistance, like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, their cars aren't in always the best shape. Their life is unpredictable. They might get called into work when they thought they had off and they're not gonna like not show up to work. And so one of the things we've, we've done is a lot of clients now, or someone misses an interview, or no sh no call NoShow, they may send a text and say, Hey, we know life happened, you know, know would you like to reschedule? And they just, what they're doing is allowing the conversation to start, right? And, you know, hey, if they no show two or three times, that's probably like a pattern maybe now, but the first time, the first time, like, you're giving them a second chance, but they're too afraid to start the conversation many times cuz they're embarrassed, right? Right. And so just starting the conversation and being friendly might win them over. They're like, wow, this company actually gave me a second chance. Whereas most companies would never return my phone call ever again.
Linda Leekley (21:14):
Yeah, you let them save, let's save face, you let 'em save face and know that the options are still open. Yeah, that's great advice. Okay, so you've talked a lot about what, what makes for a good interview and how to relieve anxiety. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see businesses making that tend to increase the notions?
Chris Bowker (21:37):
Right? So here we go, <laugh>
Linda Leekley (21:42):
Let's all take notes. <Laugh>,
Chris Bowker (21:44):
Right? So there's a lot of things that, and the first one I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about is, is, is my pet peeve. And it's a mindset and it's when leaders of a company or or team members say, you know, excuse their poor recruiting results because candidates don't wanna work or they're flaky, right? Can people just don't wanna work today. Well, unemployment's below 4% still and has been for a long time. So math tells us that everybody is working, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> we see companies growing left and right. So it's not, it's not that you can't grow during these times. There's plenty of companies that have exploded with 5000% growth in the past 18 months. But the problem or the reality is that these companies have to face is like, there's a couple things. One, your process and your recruiter are broken.
Chris Bowker (22:32):
Like they need training, they need to be faster and easier and more convenient. Or two, your job offer just isn't enough, enough. You know, like you just aren't being a competitive job offer. And what happens is, these people, all the eight, nine and tens, all the great caregivers that everybody wants, were already hired. They've already been hired by your competition. So what you're left with is their leftovers. The the 5 67 that, you know, they interviewed and passed on. That's all you see. So now you think a, a five or a six is really an eight or a nine and they're not, they're five or a six. And so therefore you think all these candidates are flaky. The problem is you never even get to talk to the great ones. So it's really important that before you discount your, your worker base that's worth 5,500 to $6,500 a month to you and, and, and revenue is to really think about like, am I doing the best? Am I number one? Am I being competitive in all these areas, right? And really take a hard look at yourself as an employer if that's what you're thinking and saying, because that mindset is not gonna be a winning mindset for you in today's marketplace. Like, you will continue to struggle. That's my scope box mold. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian White (23:44):
I'll I'll add to that, Chris, but but no, that was great. We also see a lot of companies that are asking too much of the candidate prior to the interview, right? And one of the things that we lose sight of is over 50% of people, their only access to the internet is their smartphone. That's it. So if you're asking the candidate to complete a long form application or a personality test, you know, or something like that before the interview, it's gonna have a negative impact on your show rates. Remember, people will always take the path of least resistance, even the qualified ones, even the ones with experience, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So remove as many barriers of entry before if they show up for the interview and they're a good fit, all of that can be done after the fact, right? And so any of those things that we're gonna, that you're asking of the candidate beforehand, remove those and do it after.
Linda Leekley (24:50):
So companies are doing that, I assume Brian, because they're trying to weed out people and not waste their time interviewing. But you're saying that's a backwards approach.
Brian White (25:01):
Oh, we have found that's the case because one of the most, you know, half of life they say is just showing up, right? Well, so first you want to find out if that person's, you know, willing to wake up in the morning, put themselves together and drive across town to meet with you. If they are, well, they can already do half the job at this point. You just have to determine if they, you know, have a kind heart and a love for the elderly. And if they are, you're probably going to offer 'em a job right then and there mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but asking 'em to do all that beforehand, you have to ask yourself, is my competitors asking to do this? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and everyone has moved to the past of least resistance because they know speed is so important mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so you're the things that you were normally prioritizing before an interview that can be done after you even make the job offer to them.
Linda Leekley (25:58):
Oh, I can.
Amanda Sternklar (26:00):
Yeah. Those nines and tens, like you mentioned, have already been hired. Like
Brian White (26:05):
If
Amanda Sternklar (26:06):
Nobody else is giving them homework,
Brian White (26:08):
There's <laugh>. You're exactly right. You're exactly right. This place wants me to do a long form application that's not mobile friendly. This one wants me to do a hundred question personality test. And this one has an open calendar that says, come in anytime that you're available tomorrow morning, you know, this afternoon whenever you're available, you don't have to bring anything other than your smile, right? Yeah. People are gonna show up to that one more often.
Chris Bowker (26:37):
And I think one more mistake that, that people make is having multiple interviews or multiple steps to their hiring pro process to a job offer, right? They're like, Hey, we're gonna have you come in then we're gonna have you come back in and we can't make a job offer until your TV test comes back. And you just have like, and today's market, like the interviewing process is all the way up until their first shift. You know, orientation is really part of the interview process. You're still getting to know them, they're still getting to know you, right? You're making sure they're trainable, all those wonderful things. And you can't, you can't just say, oh, the interview's done, the job offer was made, or We're not gonna make a job offer until now. Like if you think the candidate's viable, you gotta find a way to lock 'em down.
Chris Bowker (27:25):
And as soon as they walk out that door, they're walking into another home care agency, they can pull up their voicemails and be like, oh, which company called me? Let me call them back. Right? Like, they literally have 'em on their voicemail, they have 'em in their text message. Like it's not, it's not hard for them to find a job. So I think just being, being super candidate focused and, and treating candidates as valuable as they are I was talking to an owner and I was like, you know, a candidate worth $6,500 a month to you in recurring revenue every single month, $75,000 a year, right? And then it's like, are you treating that process the same as the sales process? And it's like, no, we put way more emphasis and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and energy and resources into sales. But it's like, but why manufacturing your product is so much harder these days. And so when you start thinking about recruiter or as candidates as, as that valuable to your company mm-hmm. <Affirmative> there's a mind shift there that happens that they start to treat them that valuable. And the whole process that valuable,
Linda Leekley (28:28):
They wouldn't have a business without exactly, you know, those employees <laugh> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. That's been my push for, you know, my career. <Laugh> is good.
Amanda Sternklar (28:40):
They don't think that'll be a message that's unfamiliar to folks who
Linda Leekley (28:43):
Have before <laugh>.
Brian White (28:46):
Well, and and that's definitely Chris's Chris and i's passion, right? For sure.
Linda Leekley (28:53):
Yeah. Absolutely. Not sure.
Amanda Sternklar (28:57):
You know, Chris, you started to talk a little bit about the orientation process which brings up kind of the other piece of this we were talking about once an applicant accepts your offer, that's not the end of the story. And we hear from so many owners who are struggling to get folks they've already hired to show up for their first shift. We've been focusing a lot on the interview process, but can you talk about any additional advice you have for, for those owners?
Chris Bowker (29:23):
Yeah, I'll, I'll take half of this at least. I think the same principles apply once they accept the job offer to get them to their first shift, right? These, these people need money. They, they live for the most part, paycheck to paycheck, right? Like, let's just take the average carrier, not all, but the average hourly worker list, paycheck, paycheck to paycheck in America. So if you're asking them to wait a week for orientation or wait a week to start their first shift, like they have to go somewhere else because they have car bills and rent and groceries just like everyone else that needs to get paid. And so speed in that process is critical. What we know, we've seen the migration of, we do orientation and training once a week to, or once every other week to a lot of companies like, Hey, we're figuring out how to do orienta orientation and training every single day. Right? that's, that's, you know, that's huge. It's hard to do. Not every company has that bandwidth durability, but mm-hmm. <Affirmative> figuring out ways to get them involved. Cuz you know, you're paying for training now, so at least now they're making money and you can start paying them. And that's, that's so important.
Linda Leekley (30:30):
Do you have, do you have feeling, oh, I'm sorry. Were you gonna add Brian or No? Okay. Do you have feelings about, and I've talked with a lot of home care owners that will pay a lower salary or a lower hourly rate for training than they do for actual shifts. <Laugh> my take on that is it immediately tells that that new hire, that they don't value training or the time that it's being spent training. So I've always suggested why not flip it and say, look, we're gonna pay you more to get trained. I don't know if you guys have an opinion on that, but I'd be interested to hear.
Brian White (31:13):
Fortunately I would say I, I haven't ran into that before, which I'm glad that doesn't mean that it's not happening with a lot of our clients. I just haven't heard that because that hurts my heart, right? Hearing, hearing stuff like that <laugh>, because it really is the, the, the, the, not just the onboarding, the ongoing training, training isn't done in the first day. Training is ongoing. And when you discount, like you were saying Linda, the training, they start showing up to training that way. Kind of like half engaged. But when you put a priority on that by by like you're saying, even paying more, hey, it's that important that you're gonna get paid more during the training. It puts an emphasis on it. So although I have not seen that one way or the other, I can get on board with that for sure. And and agree with it a hundred percent.
Chris Bowker (32:14):
And Linda, one other question. Ask those owners, if you're already paying, let's say $10 an hour instead of 15 for those eight hours of training, like, is $40 really gonna hurt you that much? And would $40 get, like if, if you paid everyone and you hired just one more caregiver that year, it pays for itself, right? And so it's, it's just kind of that it, it hurts to see someone that you train, walk out the door, not show up for the first shift. I don't discount that pain as an owner that is that, you know, it's a big investment and they, you got 'em all the way to the finish line. But the same thing happens on the sales side. It's just that investment is a, is someone's salary, right? You, you know, you're paying a salesperson's salary and so the, the investment's the same. And so I understand they're paying, but at the same time it's like for incremental, extra cost, I get this benefit of higher, higher retention, more importance on training. And, and like you said, I think it's so important to put an importance on that part because, you know, you know, we read the studies all over the place, that training feeling unprepared for the job is, is a, is a reason why people leave in the first 30 days, right? Right. And so if you want to retain them, you gotta train them.
Linda Leekley (33:28):
Well, yeah. And if you look at that cost differential, like you're saying, compared with what you've already invested to get them that far in the process, right? It's really so minimal it, it doesn't make sense to me to, to discount it. Yeah.
Amanda Sternklar (33:44):
<Laugh>, it's understandable to go there cuz I get like, like we were talking about, I get the pain of, of kind of seeing, seeing them go through orientation, not, and not come back, but talk about the cost differential. You know, we've discussed with data from the benchmarking report, it's e every person who turns over, it's about $2,700 on average in lost wages, the cost of finding another candidate of training them. And you know, if they then if they aren't engaged in training, but they do stay and lower care quality causes, causes client turnover, that's another $600 on average in client acquisition costs, not to mention, you know, again, lost revenue and things like that.
Linda Leekley (34:25):
And the impact on the clients, right?
Amanda Sternklar (34:28):
Yes. Of I, yes, <laugh>, but you know, it's, it's understandable to have that immediate reaction, but putting it in perspective, I Right. I think is really important.
Linda Leekley (34:41):
Yeah. Looking at the big patients for sure.
Chris Bowker (34:43):
Yeah. And then on the training aspect, I, something that I've heard a a couple of times now that I think is really, really a smart idea is they'll actually at the end of orientation book a shadow shift as the end of training, right? And they go out with another existing caregiver, but they, they immediately go to work on a shift and it's like, yes, it's another $60, you know, maybe it's just four hours, it's another $60 out the window, but it's just part of the cost to hire, right? And if you can convert more people and spend thousands less on indeed, you're gonna come out way ahead. This person is already so far down the funnel, committed so much time to you mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that it's worth just getting them to work, making them feel a part of the team, reducing their first an anxiety by being with another caregiver, right? And it just greases the wheels and just makes that transition so much smoother. And I thought that was a, a genius idea of a, a shadow shift down the, on the first day,
Linda Leekley (35:38):
Right? Well, you know, Chris, that's standard operating procedure in every other continuum of healthcare or, or you know, vertical healthcare, right? You know, a new nurse or a new C n A or a new doc, anybody's gonna get mentored or precepted or shadowed, you know? And so why should it be different really with home care? It shouldn't. So I, I'm on board with that completely. Yeah. shifting gears a little bit. I know you talked about if you're ghosted, but if you, and and you, you talked about, you know, a drip campaign. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you would suggest people do that? Is it how, what's the length of time of a drip campaign? What's ideal? That sort of thing?
Brian White (36:26):
You want me to take that Chris? We go right ahead buddy. Yeah. So when someone, no calls no-show, we recommend immediately following up the later that day or the next day saying, Hey, sorry, we missed you. We know life happens. If you would like to reschedule, here's a link to do so. So letting them know that, you know, that life happens and then providing them a way to, to be able to do so. If it's because they've found another job, well then, you know, you're probably not gonna hear back from them. And that's where we recommend putting a three week pause in between any messaging, because that's where we're gonna assume that they found another job. And you want to give them time to settle in and realize it's not the opportunity that they had hoped it was right. And then right around that time, you start sliding back into their dms, sending them some more messages, telling 'em all the benefits of working for your organization At that point, it's about staying top of mind and staying in front of 'em.
Brian White (37:29):
It's really hard to entice someone to leave a job that they're happy with. More than likely what you're gonna do is stay top of mind and be in front of them when they've decided that they're leaving where they're at. And when you, since you don't know when that's going to be, you just have to stay in front of them always. Right? You have to continue to send them your logo and the benefits and let 'em know that you have shifts available and just be in front of them. But we see those ongoing drip campaigns and re-engagement campaigns have huge impact. And then someone that you might have disqualified originally because they didn't have a driver's license, well that's something that can change fairly easily mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, right? And so now they do have a driver's license or now they do have insurance and so just because they didn't have it at this one time, you don't want to remove them from all campaigns forever and always because some of those things can easily change. And so you want to stay in front of them for when it does.
Linda Leekley (38:37):
Makes good sense. Now, would you recommend oh, go ahead, Amanda.
Amanda Sternklar (38:41):
Yeah. What do you guys think about, and, and have you seen anyone include requests for referrals in, in outreach like that? You know, wanted to check and see if, if you were back on the job market or if you know anyone who you think could be a good fit.
Brian White (38:59):
We haven't explored any of that. That would, that would be interesting though. Yeah. And that's something that we could definitely explore.
Amanda Sternklar (39:10):
I want, like, we do that a lot, couple months after this. I wanna like fall
Linda Leekley (39:14):
<Laugh>.
Amanda Sternklar (39:14):
I feel like there's so much stuff we wanna revisit and here how
Linda Leekley (39:17):
I to brook you down, down, down the road a bit,
Brian White (39:20):
<Laugh> for sure.
Chris Bowker (39:23):
I mean, right? Like I, but we all know like the caregiver referral market is your best resource, right? We're, we're talked to a lot of recruiters and like 50% of people are hire is is referrals. It's like, that's great. That means that you're a really good company, right? Typically. and you should always be asking for referrals and always be pitching in money for referrals when people refer, you know, caregivers to you like, especially your current employees that should just be like standard operating procedure. They save you 600 to a thousand dollars on hiring, you know, you can, you can throw 'em a bone and and and, and give 'em a little perk here and there, right?
Brian White (40:00):
But I also really like the idea of e like I think that what Amanda was suggesting, which was, Hey, even if you're not looking for a job right now, right? Refer someone else to it. So it's a way for them to like make a bonus or some, you know, if there's some type of financial benefit of doing that. And if they are gonna refer someone else to you, well it's likely if they get hired on and enjoy the job, that they could bring their friend along with them, the one that originally referred them. And so yeah, just asking for the referrals is always great, but asking them from people that aren't working for you, I don't see anything wrong with that. Right?
Amanda Sternklar (40:38):
I ask cuz that's happened to me I think three times now where a recruiter, recruiter will reach out and it's not the right position. <Laugh> also very happy at hcp. What I clear that it's pretty like several years ago for working here. But if I, I'll hear from, if I hear from a recruiter, it's not a good fit, but if they're, like, if they're a kind person you know, their outreach is responsive and and respectful and I know somebody, I'll be like, Hey, I, this is not the right position for me, but you know who it is right? For, and I'll make the introduction. And I imagine if you had the right kind of outreach, that's something that that would be really, that, that could have good results. Mm-Hmm.
Brian White (41:21):
<Affirmative> true.
Chris Bowker (41:23):
Very, very true.
Linda Leekley (41:25):
Chris and Brian, do any of your your clients use make use of sort of ambassadors, you know, from their team? Do they do any sort of video testimonials with current caregivers, you know, who say, th I love my job and this is why, and you know, text those out to, to prospects. Is that ever happen? Do you have any data on that or?
Brian White (41:49):
So we have some clients that do that. We don't, there's not enough of them doing it for us to have some data around it mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But we, we recommend during the process sending them a benefit statement that just, you know, shines you in the best light, all the awards that you've won all the employment awards, things like that. And there are several offices that we include a video and the video can, can sometimes even be after the interview is scheduled, you're sending that along with the confirmation, okay. Because they're applying to a bunch of jobs, applying to several companies. But the differentiator could be the video that was attached that's letting them know the day in a life of a care professional at this role. Once again, it's a differentiator if you're doing it. And the other two companies they applied for aren't, it shines you in a better light. And so yes, absolutely. We have some companies that are doing it, we encourage that as much as possible. But it is something that people feel like is an undertaking, Hey, I have to record this video, I have to do this. A lot of franchise offices can lean on corporate for that. Those videos already exist. And for the independence, I would tell you, it doesn't have to be slick and professional. You can record it from your phone.
Linda Leekley (43:11):
Authentic, authentic, authentic.
Brian White (43:14):
Yes. Hundred percent. And, you know, coming from the owner of the organization talking about their mission and vision and passion and why they started the organization definitely be a differentiator. So yes, we have some that do it. I would say not nearly enough.
Amanda Sternklar (43:32):
I don't know if I'm sharing state secrets here, so we can cut it out if necessary. But I remember when we were when we were first talking and you know, we were talking about pre intent. One of the things you recommended and you said a good number of your clients do, even if they can't do the videos, just sending a text either the day of or shortly before, like after the interviews booked about. So excited that you're coming. I just wanted to share why I really love working here. Different things like that. So it sounds like there's, there are options, you know, even if you can't do the video to really help get applicants excited about your agency.
Chris Bowker (44:11):
Yeah. Even just sending emojis, like someone booked an interview, we get a lot of responses on the confirmation, thumbs up, great. Those type of things, you know, just sending back a smiley face, like build so much rapport with candidates, right? That use of emojis. And I think the hard part about recruiting is there's not one thing that's gonna like take you from zero to 60, right? Really drastically move the needle. It's like, hey, you gotta do 10 or 15 things, all right. To move the needle 10 to 15%. Like no one thing's gonna have a, a drastic impact. But when you start doing all the fundamentals correctly like the process and the culture all just kind of happen naturally. And, and that's, that's what's so hard about being a recruiter today. Like recruiters have the hardest job in home care. You know, they are faced with a very, very difficult task of and a highly competitive market. And, and you know, a lot of pressure is put on them by leadership and that, and that's hard. That's, that's a lot.
Brian White (45:12):
I would like to add to that, that there may be, if you're not doing something already, there may be something that could take you from zero to 60, and that's text messaging. If you are not text messaging right now and you are relying on leaving voicemails and sending emails, if you start incorporating text messages, you will fill the effects overnight. Even if that's using an office phone and texting them manually. I do not suggest doing that. I suggest using some, you know, some software, something that's automated like pre intent, but to test the waters on your own to see if it's gonna have an impact, do it from your own phone. And it is night and day difference. And so that would be the one thing. If you're already texting, well then yes, you have to do all these little things to help move the needle. But if you're not doing that already, that's something that you can implement and, and start, you know, doubling your results pretty quickly.
Chris Bowker (46:15):
Because sometimes it's not necessarily just about show rate, it's actually how many interviews can you book in a month, right? Like if you have a hundred candidates, can you book 40 of 'em to an interview? Well, you know, if you have a 50 show rate, 50% show rate or 6% show rate, that's a ton of interviews that actually occur that month. And it gives you an opportunity to hire 15 to 20% of your applicant base. And so texting, self-scheduling are two key components that I think help you book just more interviews every month and give your recruiter more at bats to go and, and lock down and, and get a good hire.
Linda Leekley (46:50):
So doing all of those processes manually, it sounds like is kind of a, a drag on on an organization. That's what I'm hearing. And so having the tools in place for a recruiter, whoever's doing the recruiting for an agency is really vital it sounds like to me.
Brian White (47:13):
Absolutely.
Linda Leekley (47:14):
I imagine you're gonna agree when you've got tools, but I mean, it, it, it just makes sense, you know, it's just one less manual process and all those pieces, like you say, it's, it's 14 different things you've gotta do. Right? And if you have to do, do all of those things manually in the chance of, of being, of getting it done, you know, it just, just drops.
Brian White (47:35):
And that's why it feels so defeating and personal when you have all these no call no shows, it's because you were the one making the phone calls and leaving the voicemails. You were the one that was sending the emails. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it feels like you're the one being rejected. Yeah. Even, even though, you know, that's not the case, it's really hard to not feel that. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Well, when, when all of that's being when a lot of that is being done for you automated, when they, if they do ghost you, it doesn't have as big of an impact. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because you're not the one that was having to send all the multiple messages, right? We even have some offices double book interview time slots. Right? They have a 50% no call, no show rate. So they're scheduling two interviews per time slot. In theory, they should always have one person showing up. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? And so just utilizing everyone's time, specif mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.
Linda Leekley (48:31):
Yeah.
Amanda Sternklar (48:34):
It's a very nice segue into if folks are hearing all of this and thinking that they'd love to, to automate this process, Chris and Brian, where's the best place for folks to find you guys ask any questions and find out more about pre intent?
Brian White (48:48):
Yeah, so you'll go to pre intent.com or you can email sales pre intent.com either way, and that'll message us directly and we'd love to give you a full demo of our automated platform, how we help home care agencies connect, qualify and schedule interviews faster than humanly possible.
Amanda Sternklar (49:12):
I know I've also seen some great content from you guys on LinkedIn as well. And Linda, where's the best place for folks to find you?
Linda Leekley (49:20):
Yeah, I'm available on LinkedIn as well. Linda Leafly or my email, linda leafly home care pulse.com. Be happy to hear from anybody
Amanda Sternklar (49:29):
And you can find me. I'm most easily accessible on LinkedIn. My name is Amanda Stern Clark. Again, if you'd like to, if you have a story you'd like to share as a guest on the podcast you can go to home care pulse.com/podcast and apply to sit in the, the seats that Chris and Brian are in right now. Talk to us about your success in post-acute care. While you're there, you can find any of our previous episodes and you can also listen to previous episodes of Vision wherever you currently listen to podcasts. Thank you guys again, so much for joining us.
Linda Leekley (50:01):
Oh, it, it's been a pleasure. Christian Bra, I think we could probably talk for a couple hours and, you know, keep this rolling, but we'll just, we'll just have to book you again,
Brian White (50:09):
Schedule another one for sure. Thank you guys so much.
Linda Leekley (50:12):
Thanks for everything, you guys.
Speaker 5 (50:14):
Awesome work. Thank you.