John Wilson, Sales Strategy & Account Management at A Place for Mom, discusses what a successful lead generation strategy looks like, how it compares to traditional advertising, and how to select a lead generation service.
John Wilson, Sales Strategy & Account Management at A Place for Mom, discusses what a successful lead generation strategy looks like, how it compares to traditional advertising, and how to select a lead generation service.
Linda Leekley (00:08):
Hi everyone, this is Linda Leekley, chief Clinical Officer from hcp.
Amanda Sternklar (00:13):
And I'm Amanda Stern Clark, our director of marketing,
Linda Leekley (00:16):
And you're listening to Vision Lead podcast for leaders and forward thinkers in the care industry. Today we'll be discussing how you can ensure that you are getting the most out of your lead generation program. And to do that, we are so lucky to be joined by John Wilson, who is the director of Sales Strategy and account management at a Place for Mom.
Amanda Sternklar (00:38):
John is a lead generation expert with over 15 years of experience in helping businesses of all sizes grow their revenue. Through his expertise in developing effective lead generation and management strategies, he's helped numerous companies achieve their goals and reach new heights with a passion for building relationships and a knack for identifying opportunities. John has earned a reputation as a trusted advisor and a valuable asset to be a place for Mom team. Thanks so much for joining us, John.
John Wilson (01:05):
Oh, the pleasure's all mine. Thanks for having me.
Linda Leekley (01:07):
Oh, it's great to have you, John, with, with your extensive experience in the lead gen space and, and having worked at other lead generational organizations across other industries, you know that that's just so valuable for us. But for listeners who may not be familiar with lead generation services, can you explain what it is and and how it works?
John Wilson (01:27):
Yeah, of course. So really in kind of today's society, most of us have used or interacted with a lead generation platform at some point, whether they realized it or not. So if you've ever used a n g or home advisor or something like Thumbtack to find a handyman or lawn service, those are all lead gen services or a paid lead program. Now, there is some variance between them. A lot of the current lead generation models are providers or the people actually providing the service pay for your contact information. So you may just be looking for information, trying to educate yourself on options, and they then, as a business will actually pay to reach back out to you.
Linda Leekley (02:06):
Okay, that makes sense. And so if you turn that towards senior living Yeah. What would you say about, how about how that works?
John Wilson (02:14):
Yeah, so when family members are seeking senior living options or really just care options, they can come in at a variety of stages. So they may just be recently diagnosed a loved one, and they are just seeking information about who's gonna care for their loved one or their parent, which, whatever the circumstance may be. There are also folks that are seeking information for themselves at varying levels of urgency in terms of need of care. So some people may be several months out, some people may just be wanting to get a cost analysis and some people may need something in the next few days and they just don't know in their area where to find it. So really for a family, a lead generation service is worked. It really works online as a trusted advisor. It allows them to help narrow options so that they're not just scrolling through the, the internet as we've all been in the habit of doing to have limitless options. And for providers when it's used effectively a lead gen service provides consistent flow of referrals. It allows you to measure outcomes pretty specifically. You are also left with contact name and information for either immediate follow up or kind of a nurture campaign for through ongoing marketing efforts.
Linda Leekley (03:22):
Great, that, that makes complete sense to me. And I'm a Amanda's a marketing wiz, but I am not. So that made complete sense, which is good. <Laugh>, <laugh>,
Amanda Sternklar (03:32):
You know, I hear, I think right now we're hearing a lot from folks talking about seo. They're talking about pay per click. Can you talk a little bit more about the difference that lead generation services can bring versus these other forms of digital marketing that we're hearing a lot about right now? Yeah,
John Wilson (03:46):
Absolutely. So if you have a robust marketing background and you have a lot of experience, I think there's certainly value in diversifying how you are found. And one of the ways in doing that is search engine marketing, s e m or seo, search engine optimization, which will draw people to your site because you'll rank higher in a listing. Now for those of us who don't have extensive experience in managing those types of marketing channels, it can be quite expensive and it requires a lot of time and dedication. One of the benefits of selecting the right lead generation service is that you get the added benefit of our effort. So obviously we drive folks to us and we have national reach at a place for mom, but also other lead generation services. So at the same time you're getting some optimization of maybe a profile page or some of the other offerings that you'll get with an online digital lead generation. You then also are able to spend more time doing what many of our home care agency customers do best, which is working with families to identify what the care needs are and then hopefully converting them.
Amanda Sternklar (04:50):
Absolutely. It definitely takes a whole lot of attention to, to successfully manage paper click campaigns. And can you speak a little bit to the difference in leads between a lead generation service and what you might receive through, you know, search engine marketing or through a pay per click ad campaign?
John Wilson (05:06):
Yeah, so a paper per click, again, not to kind of beat it again, but the substantial day-to-day management. And it's really focusing on just activity through a site or through your own website. That's the information you get. Now, they may come through and convert fully. What you get through a lead generation service though is in name. You get an evaluation of what services are actually needed. You get a phone ins, again, depending on who you select, you get a phone number, an email address that's voice verified. So someone has actually spoken with them and confirmed that they are in fact seeking the types of services they're looking for. You also, again I, not to emphasize this, but as you know Amanda, as you're in marketing, you're tracking your return on the investment is pretty important. So if you're in a paper click model, that click and what you're paying for can drive all the way to a conversion, but it doesn't necessarily illustrate the entire value of the marketing platform. Where with ours, you or any lead generation service, excuse me, you get X number, you spend this much money, and by the end of a month you can say, okay, I have converted this much over the course of a quarter or a year. You can say, I've put this much money into a program. This is how much revenue I have generated from said program. Is that investment worth it? It doesn't require much more math than that.
Amanda Sternklar (06:26):
I'm sure every marketer listening to this can, the minute you talk about attribution and, and paper click campaigns is
John Wilson (06:34):
Not easy.
Linda Leekley (06:35):
<Laugh> not easy <laugh>.
Amanda Sternklar (06:38):
Great, thank you.
John Wilson (06:39):
Yeah, of course.
Linda Leekley (06:40):
So, so John, if you know, if I were a provider and I wanted to work with a lead generation service, one of the things I would wanna understand is where did the leads come from that I you are charging me for?
John Wilson (06:54):
Yeah, absolutely. So as I had mentioned earlier when we were talking about individual search engine marketing or search engine optimization, a lot of the leads in lead generation services, ex I can speak to a place for mom, they're coming through digital channels largely. Now. We also have strong television presence. So obviously as our name has expanded in the market over the past 20 years, we get a lot of kind of organic traffic. But for the most part, the complexity of the campaigns that we were talking about in pay per click and search engine marketing are done more effectively at a national scale. So when we put our kind of tentacles out, for lack of a better term, we are able to draw in a lot more people because we have a lot more expertise in that space. So that being said, there's other companies similar to ours and in different industries.
John Wilson (07:40):
So most of the time they're coming from maybe a Google search, a keyword, home care near me, or recent discharge looking for care options near me, staying in home home care. And as we kind of expand our reach into those keywords, it'll then present a form that'll evaluate the care needs that's submitted by the person that is seeking the care options. At the point they fill out that form, it will fall usually into some type of a management system that will then prompt an agent. Or if it's online exclusively, there'll be some vetting system that'll actually pass it through and it'll be referred, we'll talk more about this later, I'm confident. But otherwise it's gonna be vetted by, in our instance, a group of care advisors. We'll actually call each person that submitted that form, validate what their needs were, and then help to match them with agencies in their area, home care agencies in their area that are well suited to service them.
Linda Leekley (08:36):
Okay. That makes, that makes total sense. So you really do have that warm lead with lots of good information that you're passing along. Yeah. Okay. Exactly.
Amanda Sternklar (08:47):
You've mentioned that you know, obviously you can speak to the practices at a place for mom, you didn't come by this information in a vacuum vacuum, though I appreciate keeping it to more <laugh>, more general, but can you share what, what providers should look for when they're evaluating lead generation services to make sure that they, they get the value, that they get these really high value warm leads?
John Wilson (09:09):
Yeah, no, absolutely. Quite a bit on this that just through time of working in this field, I've kind of developed a quick list of these <laugh>, but really first thing you wanna make sure of specific to senior care is, is it a senior care specific lead generator? That's not to say they, there may not be other value elsewhere, but having a more targeted lead generation provider is always gonna make it a little bit easier. It takes away some of the vetting that you would have to do as a provider and whether or not they're actually seeking, whether it's senior living or home care. The more targeted you can be in the types of families that are coming through a lead generation service, the better. So that would be step one. Next, you really wanna get a sense of what lead volume is in your area.
John Wilson (09:52):
First you have to evaluate how many clients am I interested in taking? So let's say that it all works really well and I am able to take on 10 new clients over the course of a quarter or a month, which is a lot depending on your caregiver staffing. Obviously at that point, the first question you'd ask when walking into the doors of a lead generation company is, how many leads can I get in these areas that I am working? Now some folks decide to come in and have huge statewide areas. Now we usually wouldn't suggest that cuz it kind of overwhelms them. But you wanna have an understanding of what you can tolerate. And then the next thing from that is, can it be customized to fit your needs? So if you're working with a lead generation platform, ideally you're converting some of these mm-hmm <affirmative>, the next step is, okay, does it need to be more targeted?
John Wilson (10:39):
Do we need to hone it in a little bit more? How specific you're willing to be in your designated coverage, what we call coverage areas kind of in the industry. So what zones you're willing to work out of can have a lot to do with how successful you're going to be. So again, it's kind of a wide, an ax versus a scalpel is probably the best way to think about it. Sometimes there is value to a business to have cast a large net as then you get more volume. Targeting a little bit more is always really helpful. So do they have an opportunity to help you target? And what insights can they provide you that will kind of help your business grow in the areas that you're looking to grow it? How do they, the question you asked me before, how do they actually get the leads?
John Wilson (11:20):
So are they just web searches? Do they get organic traffic? Are they driven in from television advertisements, is it from local trade shows? I mean, how are they getting them? Are they getting from local clinics? Do they have those types of relationships? The more diversity that they have in terms of lead channels. Back to your comment, Amanda, that like they use, if they have a well oiled and sophisticated marketing machine inside of a company, you're gonna have a diversity of conversion rates across those channels. So then you can as a business person evaluate what is best versus what is not. And then again, continue to work on targeting. Next thing really, and again, none of these are in a very specific order, although I could probably put 'em in a better order for you, but it's gonna depend on the business need. But what do the screening and pre-qualification processes look like?
John Wilson (12:12):
Do they speak with them to validate their needs? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, do they just get an online submission and send that through? Which in many cases, depending on cost and depending on volume may be a good system. For some businesses it really just depends on what they're looking for. Then very important, how much do they charge? So is there a monthly minimum budget to participate with this? And if that is, what is the budget, what can you expect to actually get as a return? Now it's not gonna be exact every time, but can they give you some sense of what you can expect in terms of conversion if you work it, how the lead generation service or at a place for mom, how we might suggest you tailor your best practices to do it. And then also, is there a long-term contract? Do they lock you in for a period of time?
John Wilson (12:58):
Potentially, rightfully, there are things, I think as we know, Amanda, again, as the marketing person, I'll speak to you, there can be a gut reaction that if something isn't working for a few weeks or a month, maybe two months, that this doesn't work at all. But the reality is, with any marketing platform, it's a question of kind of time horizon. So what is the value over a set period of time? For some folks they can make that evaluation in a quarter. Some folks it's six months. Some folks it's a year. It really just depends. I mean, if you put up a billboard and it's up for a week and you don't see traction in the billboard for a week, is it a failure? Probably not. Could it be I but suppose, right? Like it could, but you're not gonna really evaluate the success or really the efficacy of any marketing platform in a short period.
John Wilson (13:42):
So there may be a reason to have a contract, but again, that's up to personal, your personal decision. Some folks don't like to be locked in. How many other providers actually receive the lead? So is it going to 20 other, in this case home care agencies, is it going to 20 of them? Is it going to 10? Is it going to just one? Which we can't really do exclusives in lead generation just in this industry, but, or is it going to a reasonable amount? 2, 3, 4? That's also very important because it gives you an understanding of how much you're gonna have to compete for that one lead. Now the reality is you're competing for every client that you get regardless of what the channel is. So having a good understanding that part of operating a business is competing for that business. But again, this gives it a little bit smaller pool that you'll understand if you're good with competing with 10, great.
John Wilson (14:33):
If you'd prefer to have that pool shrink a little bit, that's even better, right? Gives you a higher likelihood of converting that client. And just cuz I have a couple of more. So how many other providers, that's a really important one, but really what's the return in credit policy? So is it really stringent, right? Are they going to work with you if something genuinely, despite their best effort of vetting a lead comes through? And it wasn't, they were looking for an auto repair shop. I can't think of a situation where that would happen, but you know what I mean? It's like you can have conversations on the phone with these folks at the beginning and sometimes once an agency gets on the phone with them, it's kind of a different story. You can go back and listen to both sides of that call and wonder where the disconnect was.
John Wilson (15:15):
But are they willing? Is the lead generation service you're working with willing to kind of hear you out and listen to you? Now all businesses have parameters. I mean, no one's gonna have a full credit, but based on your tolerance for working with a company and their service levels, that's kind of how you decide which you'd wanna work with versus which you don't. And one thing, just because I was a customer service call center manager and call center representative for a long time, do they have live customer support? Some folks will focus on having kind of an online platform, which everything runs through. Some don't have that. Some people really like that. They don't like to be there with somebody. I think it's important that if service level is something that makes a meaningful difference, that's just a question you should ask prior to kind of engaging in any business. Do they have the capacity to support your needs when you need their support?
Linda Leekley (16:04):
Wow. I mean those are, that's a tremendous list of questions that really would help our audience evaluate a lead gen company. I have a couple of follow ups. Sure. Just to help them know what the right answer is, right or the right range. So you said what is the lead volume in the area? What, what should they want to hear from a lead gen company on that score?
John Wilson (16:26):
So a lot of that has to do with what an expected conversion rate is now with a lead generation service. I think, and again, this is where I will as broad as I'm trying to make it, I have to speak for kind of what I'm doing today. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I think any lead generation service and specifically a place for mom, there is a way to target and tailor your outreach to leads to the point we made earlier, right? There is, there are some folks that are looking for immediate care. Those ones are great, we love that immediate conversion. There are some that are kind of a longer conversion window. So you have to implement some nurture campaigns to make sure you're staying in front of them so they know your name. Now, how many you convert is a function of how many you take. So like anything, it becomes a funnel or a metric game.
John Wilson (17:11):
Okay? If you want to convert so you can set a target for yourself based on your own historical conversions. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So if you're getting word of mouth referrals and you're closing them 85% of the time mm-hmm. <Affirmative> fantastic. Maybe you don't need us. But if you're needing to boost the business, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you wanna then set a reasonable target for yourself. Let's say 5%, let's say 10%. You don't wanna overshoot it, but then you make the cost evaluation on what that conversion rate is. So if you're in revenues making something, keep the math easy about $2,000 a month and you're spending five or $600 a month in lead volume, one client out of 20 leads will pay for itself over a period of time. Now, ideally you're converting at a higher rate than that, but it's always a good idea to be relatively conservative in your evaluation for how much you're willing to spend.
John Wilson (18:02):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> versus what you believe your conversion rate to be. And sometimes it takes a little while to get ramped up in a lead generation service to understand, okay, should have called that one faster. Or let me set up a cadence for additional outreach twice on the first day, two days later, call 'em again and then maintain that ongoing outreach cadence for really, I mean as one who does this forever until they tell me to stop calling them. But really for a set defined period of time so that you can then evaluate the efficacy of that outreach and then retool and iterate from there as to another path that might be more effective. So sorry to not give you a very clear and specific answer, it really depends on the tolerance and how much you're willing to put in on the front end and then what you can convert after.
John Wilson (18:46):
So usually if we say one in 10, that's usually at, with us, that's kind of a minimum. You have to be willing to take 10 leads. It doesn't mean you have to or we're gonna charge up front for 'em. But we find that if you start slower than that, you don't see the results fast enough. And like we said earlier, that time horizon, you start to have kind of a perception that it's not working when if you took a couple of more and were working them a little bit faster, build it into your process, you could find faster success with a lead generator.
Linda Leekley (19:17):
Okay. That that's, that's clear. Couple more for example.
Amanda Sternklar (19:20):
So sorry,
Linda Leekley (19:21):
Did, is that a follow up for this or do you wanna
Amanda Sternklar (19:23):
Yeah, just to kind of elaborate on that a little bit. Yeah. And John, tell me if this is kinda accurate to what you're saying. Is this how we back into, on our team some of the metrics that we have, if you know that your conversion rate is about one in 10 and you want 10 leads, then Linda, to your, your question about like what a good lead volume is, you'd want to know that they have at least a hundred people in your area per per month if you're looking for 10 new customers a month. Yeah. Would that be accurate, John? Exactly.
John Wilson (19:52):
So
Linda Leekley (19:53):
Basically, so that was that. Yeah, that was kind of what I wanted to know. What, what, what an owner administrator should expect to hear. Ah, thank, thank you. When you ask a company to, when you ask what's your lead volume in my area for Yeah. Targeted leads, should you be wanting to hear hundreds, thousands? I mean, you know.
John Wilson (20:11):
No, that's a great, and I thank you for the clarification, Amanda. Cause I think I kind of diverged from that <laugh>, but Linda No, that's exactly right. I mean you back into it based on what your anticipated conversion will be and then yeah, if they have 10 and you know that there are 10 other competitors in that same platform, you'd want to probably hear a number higher than 10. So something like a hundred. Right. Something that will give you some benefit so that you're actually receiving them.
Linda Leekley (20:35):
Okay, that makes sense. And then one of your questions was, is there a monthly minimum budget to participate? What is the best practice answer to that question?
John Wilson (20:47):
So traditionally, I mean, a lot of platforms here in 2023 have moved to a <laugh>, almost a pay per lead model. But it's really, you do not pay for something that you're not receiving. So if it's a monthly budget, it's a matter of how many you get. Personally as I, as one who has kind of operated businesses, I like to ensure that what I am paying for is not going to nothing, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that I'm actually receiving something. So the monthly budget, if they're setting a minimum and or they're setting, you have to spend at least a thousand dollars a month with us. It's very important. You're evaluating, what am I getting for that, that money? What ac what additional access? What am I seeing? Otherwise, there's plenty of programs in the lead generation space where you really only pay for what you get. So rolling back to the previous question, if it's not there or volume isn't there, do I have to pay the thousand dollars a month or Yeah, as it ramps up, do you then start to see additional expense going out, but you're actually getting something back, so mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.
Linda Leekley (21:50):
Yeah. Perfect. That, that, that helps this non-marketing brain. So no <laugh>. Amanda, I'll turn it over to you.
Amanda Sternklar (21:56):
Yeah, I was saying it was good that Linda was able to look over this because I feel like as much as I love talking about marketing, and especially with, with other post-acute care folks, it's, it's good to have someone in the, in the room to tell us to back up a little bit. <Laugh>. Yeah,
John Wilson (22:09):
<Laugh>
Amanda Sternklar (22:10):
And I can function similarly whenever we're talking about, you know, Linda's screening expertise,
Linda Leekley (22:15):
<Laugh>,
Amanda Sternklar (22:16):
Wait, hold on a second. I don't think, I don't think everyone's following there, but that's, that's great to know. What is your kind of biggest recommendation for providers to really make the most of their investment and to be successful at gaining new clients from lead generation services? So obviously once you've evaluated and you're, you're happy with the service that you've chosen, there is some work on, you know, on the side of these business owners. So what can they do to get the most for their investment?
John Wilson (22:46):
Yeah, I would say the, one of the most important things when you're dealing with a lead generation service is kind of a speed to response. And this is true in call centers, but it's also true a lot of lead generation services operate similar to a call center in the sense that at the point that someone submits an online referral, that information comes through and at a place for mom, but in other spaces as well, the intention by the business is to contact them as soon as they can because they're looking for answers quickly. Yeah. The same should be true at the agency level. You need to make sure prior to jumping into an agreement with a lead generation service, that you have the staffing capacity to do prompt outreach. Now, prompt outreach doesn't guarantee a conversion every time. I wanna make that clear. So you also need to understand that they're different than a clinical referral or a word of mouth referral in the sense that these people are at a varied stage of their search and consideration for when care is needed.
John Wilson (23:43):
That being said, having the resources and processes in place to do immediate outreach, to have a cadence, kind of a short, medium and long-term cadence to have that outreach. But then also just an ability and processes to nurture the referrals on an ongoing basis. That's what we find the agencies that are most successful with us have, they have a kind of an immediate strike force, so to speak. Like, okay, lead came in, do the outreach, they have a first week outreach strategy, and then they have sometimes 12 months of ongoing. That's a little excessive, but you know, a long period of outreach to see if they can just stay in front of them. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So those are the main things we really emphasize. But then really it depends on the specific types of care that are needed. And do they go in for an assessment first or do they try and present pricing on the phone immediately? I mean, there's some best practices that when you're with any lead generation service, they will provide to you.
Amanda Sternklar (24:44):
On that note, do you have any kind of guideline on, I know the, the optimal answer is probably immediately or within 30 seconds, but do you have any guideline for any organizations out there on how, how quickly you should be able to respond to these leads?
John Wilson (25:01):
I'd say you, you definitely wanna put a point of contact on the first day and what we suggest is phone works the best <laugh> immediately. But also if you have text option s m s option, we find that that isn't very good to actually get the information around the care and what is needed. But it is a great transactional touchpoint, Hey, this is John got your information from insert name of lead gen company, A place for mom, just touching base with you to see how we can facilitate care needs, interested in chatting. Something to that effect, right? That just lets them know one, how you got their information. I'm not a random solicitor, you actually submitted this and now I'm the person responding and then maintaining. So the first touchpoint as quickly as you can get to it. But if you're in the middle of an assessment and you get a call or a text from us, <laugh>, there's only so much that you can do.
John Wilson (25:53):
But make a habit to do it in the first day, one point of contact the second day. And it's really just about building and testing the outreach cadences for what works for you. We have some agencies that don't ever call them on the first day. They only call them on the second. And the reason being, they get a lot of calls the first day <laugh> because we got a lot of people that do that. Now, I still wouldn't suggest that necessarily as a best practice, but what's being illustrated there is, there are many different ways to do this successfully. And a lot of it is kind of test and learn.
Linda Leekley (26:27):
Absolutely. So, so John, if you, if you had like, you know, five or 10 minutes with somebody with a business owner and you wanted to tell 'em the most important thing you wanted them to understand about lead generation services, what would that be?
John Wilson (26:42):
Yeah, absolutely. So this is something I do, I have a sales team as well, but compared to other marketing and advertising strategies, lead gen is pretty low cost, right? So when you look at it at a pay per click or trying to handle your own SEO or s e M campaigns, you can do it with similarly effective results at a lower cost. But just like any other method of advertising and marketing, lead generation delivers a prospect, it's not a client. And that is, that's <laugh>. Why would I say that? If I have 10 minutes to extol the virtue of lead gen, that's the number one thing. If you come into it expecting the same conversion as a word of mouth referral, you're going to not be pleased with the results. And I think it's important that those of us in the field recognize that that is not to say there isn't huge upside with the folks, the families that we are serving on a daily basis.
John Wilson (27:32):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But it's a different thing. They also, these are families that need your expertise. As I had mentioned, they're coming in at various stages of consideration. Some of them, I mean I'd say just as a kind of metric that we talk about. So 52% of the families we work with need care within a month. 60% that hire a caregiver do so within one week. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of times these people go online not because they're experts on home care, but because they're not and they're trying to connect with folks who are mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and it is through a lead generation service that they can fill out a form, have maybe a 10 minute call evaluating a little bit more deeply. And then we do genuinely pass it to experts that are willing to answer their questions. That's very important that people understand.
John Wilson (28:20):
So if we put out price immediately, they don't know necessarily what is entailed with home care and what care is actually needed. They just are looking at that point. They're looking for information. So I think one thing I've kind of said through, but conversion rates on paid leads are a little bit lower. Now that doesn't mean they're not super valuable, but the ben, the reason it's important there is, as we talked about earlier, how many leads should be in your area, what should be your target conversion rate, you want to be conservative. Again, the ROI or the return on investment for lead gen is substantial because again, you can fa you can calculate it quite easily. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And if you get a higher than average conversion rate, you can really do exceptionally well. Plus you may get some long-term clients that stay with you for a long time at kind of a single fee that's quite valuable as well.
John Wilson (29:07):
But just recognize there's gonna be other people coming in that may not need it for a few months, but it's a question of staying in front of them. So make sure you're able to set up a nurture campaign that is meaningful. Make notes about the person you spoke with. Hi Linda. How is your mother? I hope she's doing well. I know last time you were having an issue, but make some point to write a personal note about the person and bring it up. The next time you call, they will then remember you. Okay. I mean the one thing about paid leads that I think is really great is that they're targeted inquiries from people who need the service. As I said, they're generally more affordable, but they're, they're targeted. If you put up a billboard or a sign at a intersection or whatever, some of the other like common practices for home care are, you can get lots of different calls.
John Wilson (29:56):
It might drive, say you put a dummy phone number in there, I got a hundred calls this month. How many of them actually scheduled an assessment with you? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, how many people did you actually get as a client? How many people called you because they just saw your number and were thinking it was something else. These are, we have an entire organization and mostly gen companies. It's a whole organization supporting an industry. Okay. And so it's a little bit different than anything else. We are facilitating care for caregivers who are currently overwhelmed. And that's a just, it's a very important thing for agencies to understand that about how, so I work with our care advisor team who are the folks vetting these calls and about 30 to 40% of all of the folks we talk with are audibly upset, not upset with us. Mm-Hmm.
John Wilson (30:44):
<Affirmative> upset about the circumstance, I can't handle this anymore. I'm having a hard time with my job. I, you know, this, that all caregivers know that call. Right. Like, you know what it is? I'm saying that you have an exacerbated loved one who just wants help and it's very important. And that's what I do generally like about lead generation service, moving into it as an agency. These are people who need information and want help more often than not. And so being there to connect it is great. And then being the recipient of those families can really help a business.
Linda Leekley (31:19):
Well yeah, I mean they're in a very vulnerable state needing, needing expertise and compassion and concerns. So Yeah, I hear exactly what you're saying. So just to clarify for my non-marketing brain, yeah. So you're saying that word of mouth referrals might have a better conversion rate, but you can't really control necessarily how many word of mouth referrals you're gonna get in a month. You can control how many lead paid lead generations you're gonna get Right. In a month
John Wilson (31:52):
For the most part. Yeah.
Linda Leekley (31:53):
For the most part. And, and they'll be targeted and then up to you to follow through on. Right.
John Wilson (32:00):
Exactly. Exactly.
Linda Leekley (32:01):
So that's the, that's sort of the difference between the two and, and it's just, it's not putting all your marketing in one bucket.
John Wilson (32:08):
Exactly. That is exactly right. Okay,
Linda Leekley (32:11):
I got it. <Laugh>. <Laugh>.
John Wilson (32:13):
Well done, well done.
Linda Leekley (32:15):
<Laugh>,
Amanda Sternklar (32:16):
We've talked a lot about you know, what to look out for, what kind of questions to ask. Can you share some red flags? Is there, I know there are a lot of lead generation services on the market that are maybe not coming from, from the same place that you mentioned, you know, some that are a little bit less honest. What are some big red, red flags that owners can look out for?
John Wilson (32:34):
Yeah, no, for sure. I think, are they speaking with the families you didn't care? I think that's always an important one. How quickly do they deliver the lead from the time that the form comes in or from the time that contact is made? Are they waiting a period of time? If they did wait, is there a reason? Like is there, because you know there are circumstances in which there may be a justified reason. Do they lock you into something long term? Now there could be, again, I'm hesitant to besmirch anyone or any specific practice. There may be good reasons for these things, but if a lead generation service is working for you and you are getting clients right, you're getting new clients, you're going to at some point need to take a little bit of time to either get more caregivers or end care for certain clients.
John Wilson (33:23):
I mean it seems natural to me that you would be able to, in a sense come and go based on how effective it is. So if you're being locked in for a period of time, again you may, there may be good reason for that, but why get a good understanding as to like why that is. And then what is the billing cycle? Are they charging you for a year upfront plus a per lead fee? Is there again, just kinda what is the billing process look like? Because that can be something that you're thinking about growing your business and I need new leads and I can get all these clients and then come to find out there's some not catch, but maybe you weren't, it wasn't as clear to you upfront what that billing would look like. So just be well aware of what that looks like prior to entering into an agreement of this kind.
Amanda Sternklar (34:09):
Nomo sounds like a lack of clarity on that or on any of the other questions you've mentioned would be a probably the biggest red flag.
John Wilson (34:15):
Yeah, I would say so for sure.
Amanda Sternklar (34:18):
Great. I just always run into folks I feel like with almost any marketing method that I mentioned where they've worked with some company and they've been burned before and they, you know, lose faith in the entire practice and, and it's due to, you know, a couple bad actors. So it's good to, well help folks avoid them.
John Wilson (34:35):
No, that's exactly right. I mean a couple of things and I'll, again, I'll just speak to things we do cuz I play a role in that since I do work here and help. But a couple of things we do that we really kind of tout as a benefit is, you know, we work really hard to train teams. So a lot of times it's owners of let's say a franchise agency or a small independent agency, they're making purchasing decisions. It doesn't necessarily mean they're always the ones fielding the calls, right? And that could be fielding the leads, it could be inbound calls. So something that we really tout is training the team, training their teams how to best manage these similar to what we're talking about on this call. They're not all the same. And so understanding, okay, this one's a little bit different and how to facilitate those conversations is important.
John Wilson (35:16):
Providing insight on opportunity in an area. So let's say as we talked about, your coverage area might be really large or you become really targeted. But providing some additional insight on opportunities locally where if you do need some bus more business maybe expand here or these are the types of search keywords we're seeing in these areas. And really just trying to build out a broader support team. That's been a huge point of emphasis. We're a pretty well-known brand. Our home care division has been around for a long time, but we're really trying to right size it and increase the levels of support that we have been providing. And that's been a huge point of emphasis. So that's a lot of value there. And then it, it all really is there to impact the ROI of the agencies cuz it's not just about us sending them leads, it's also about the families finding care that they can use. And that is like the underlying value of everything we are doing is to help these caregivers find high quality care for their loved one. If we are doing that, the agencies succeed and we succeed. So that is kind of underlies everything that we do. Yeah, so <laugh>,
Linda Leekley (36:23):
So what what I heard from that, John, thank you very much is best practices look for a lead generation service that is mission driven and look for one that wants to be your partner, not just sell you something. Exactly.
John Wilson (36:39):
Exactly.
Linda Leekley (36:39):
Does that kind of sum it up <laugh>? I think so.
John Wilson (36:43):
<Laugh>.
Amanda Sternklar (36:45):
Awesome.
Linda Leekley (36:47):
Well John, thank you so much for joining us today on the I I can just imagine that this podcast is gonna get listened to and then listened to again as people write down notes of, of
John Wilson (36:59):
Hopefully not because I was unclear <laugh>, hopefully not cuz I was unclear Linda and Amanda. But I appreciate your patience with me.
Linda Leekley (37:05):
No, just because you had so much information to provide and, and I know it's gonna be so valuable to our listeners. So thank you so much for joining us.
John Wilson (37:13):
Oh, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you both for having me.
Amanda Sternklar (37:16):
John, if folks wanna learn more about a place for mom or just wanna hear more from you about lead gen services, where's the best place for them to reach out online?
John Wilson (37:23):
Yeah, they can reach out to me at, on LinkedIn, John Wilson affiliated with a Place for mom. They can also send me an email directly. I'm always pretty available. John dot Wilson a place for mom.com if they have any questions or would like some information.
Amanda Sternklar (37:35):
Absolutely. And Linda, if they want your, your synopsis, <laugh> or any have any other questions about the podcast, where is the best place for folks to reach you
Linda Leekley (37:44):
<Laugh>? Probably not about the marketing stuff. Linda Lake on LinkedIn, L E E K L E y, or email me linda laley homecare polls.com.
Amanda Sternklar (37:57):
And if you want more to talk more about the marketing stuff or have any other questions about the podcast, I'm most easily reachable on LinkedIn or I'm Amanda Stern Klar. Thank you all so much for joining us. If you have a story that you'd like to share on vision, you can find our guest submission form@homecarepulse.com slash podcast. While you're there, you can also find our previous episodes and you can also find those episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much. We'll talk to you in two weeks. Bye.
Linda Leekley (38:25):
Thanks all.