To celebrate the International Day of Disabled Persons I'm releasing a special episode with the wonderful Richard Cartwright. As Richard says in our chat, 'Be ambitious. I have a story tell: I’m going to tell it and see what happens'. To get in touch with Richard, please send him an email at: R.J.Cartwright@soton.ac.uk or follow him on Twitter @insightfulrich.
To celebrate the International Day of Disabled Persons I'm releasing a special episode with the wonderful Richard Cartwright. As Richard says in our chat, 'Be ambitious. I have a story tell: I’m going to tell it and see what happens'. To get in touch with Richard, please send him an email at: R.J.Cartwright@soton.ac.uk or follow him on Twitter @insightfulrich.
Welcome to Enabled in Academia. My name is Lienkie Diedericks, your host creator, and hopefully not the only listener of this podcast about how to survive and thrive in academia as a disabled, chronically ill, and old neurodiverse individual. Here with me today I have Richard Cartwright principal Teaching Fellow in accounting at University of Southampton. Richard, it's lovely to have you here.
Richard:Thank you. Yeah, it's great to be here,
Lienkie Diedericks:virtually, of course. Richard, we great if you can give us a short way into your career journey, because I know we're going to talk a bit more about that today. And I'm super excited. Yeah, share this with our listeners.
Richard:Yeah, sure.Thank you. I've got a probably a little bit more of an unusual career route into academia, I suppose I, I did my undergrad at the University of Birmingham in economics. And although I really enjoyed my time at university, I thought I'd kind of had enough and I'd never, not really thought at the time that I'd end up in academia working, I was sort of keen to use my economics degree and pursue an accounting in a career in either accounting, professional services, economics, banking, something like that. And I, I started working at KPMG on their graduate training scheme, back down in Southampton, which is sort of the area that I'm from originally, and, and after, you know, five and a half years, at KPMG, and after having sustained a spinal cord injury, I kinda was reassessing my options, and thinking about what I really wanted to do. And, and I was finding that actually, the commercial world wasn't really working for me. And we can talk a little bit more about why why that was. And I sort of had this revelation, when I was encouraged to go and take us a comment into our internal training department. And all of a sudden, I found that this was something that I could do really well, it was something that I could compete at, not that teaching is really competitive, but that I could do as well sat down, and as a wheelchair user, as I could do, if I was standing. And I really thought then well, how can I do this full time. And I started looking around for opportunities internally at KPMG. And as it transpired, that they just didn't have the mechanism for me to carry on and do it full time, or easily to do it full time. And so I started looking around for jobs. And something that came up was a senior lecturer in position at Southampton, Solent University, post 2000. University million plus University, I applied for that. I was really surprised when I was interviewed, let alone when I got it. Because I was only 26 at the time and launching straight into a senior electric per post seem to be, you know, quite a large leap. And then, you know, I've worked there for two and a half years, you know, with no disrespect to the institution, always with my eyes on the University of Southampton, I guess which was three miles up the road. And that was an institution which, you know, a number of my friends have attended for their undergraduate that had a world class reputation. And, and so I thought I, you know, I did daily try, tried to go and move there, and I moved there in 2015. And I've really not looked back since to be honest, I've had a really wonderful, you know, what is now six years there and I've yeah, I've, I've achieved a lot and, and, and it's given me the opportunity, you know, the opportunities to achieve a lot too. So that's kind of a potted history of of how I've sort of got to where I am today. And we can sort of tease that out and think about transitions and disability and and whatever else we want to talk about.
Lienkie Diedericks:Yeah, yes, wonderful. Well, I think maybe the first question and you you know, sort of hinted at it as well is that you're saying the commercial world post spinal cord injury just wasn't working for you. So maybe you could tell us a bit more about, you know, how your disability changed the way you could actually perform, like you were saying competing in this area. And, you know, this is a more positive story how academia can actually accommodate you better? By the sounds of it.
Richard:Yeah, sure. I mean, this is not to say, I mean, my employer at the time KPMG did everything right. I mean, they're extraordinary. To give you some context, I started my graduate job in September 2006. And two weeks in I was rather stupid and foolish and went on a trip back up to my old university had a bit too much to drink and then ended up having a shallow water accident in the university fountain breaking my The fifth vertebrae in my neck, which has led me sort of paralyzed from the shoulders down with very limited hand function. And to be honest, KPMG were amazing. Um, I oddly called in sick, which was a bit bizarre. But yeah, exactly, I felt the need to call in sick and let them know that something had happened. And they're ever forever from that time. They're extraordinary. They, I mean, the one of the biggest interventions that they made was only, you know, a day later, and it wasn't speaking to me. But when they called my parents, they, they simply said, Look, you know, this is probably the last thing on your mind at the moment. But you know, as and when Richard is feeling better, or, you know, well, you know, we've had a wheelchair user in the office before, if you want to go back to work, his jobs waiting for him. And that was incredibly liberating. And it also meant that my nine months, one weekend, a day that I spent in a hospital, what I previously thought four hours was a long time spent in hospital. But yeah, that you know, that period in hospital really had a, an endpoint and an objective two, it gave me something to work towards. And that was enormously important psychologically, for me, because, you know, early on, I thought, you know, I thought I'd thrown everything thrown everything away everything that my parents had given me, everything that I had to work towards, I thought it all it all be for nothing. And, and so that gave me focus, and something to fight for. Yeah. And KPMG, you know, beyond that, they supported me really well, they, you know, they required me to go back to, you know, part time to begin with, I wrestled and, you know, argued against this wanting to move faster than was probably a little bit more sensible. They looked after me, well, they gave me clients that were, you know, on accessible premises, they helped me, you know, stay over, if I needed to stay over, they gave me clients, which had simpler dead deadlines. But my young, ambitious, 20 something year old self, then when you're giving me all these handout, you know, which is great, they're reasonable adjustments, you know, in some ways, legally, they're required to, but, you know, morally, they would, you know, acting above and beyond what they needed to. But as a result, I then sort of reflected back and I was like, Well, I don't feel like I'm truly competing, you know, on a level playing field. And I guess, there's something called the Blue Ocean Strategy, you know, why fight really, really hard to try and compete in, in something that was at the time and maybe now with, you know, a lot more virtual working and stuff would be a lot better, but the time was actually really difficult to manage accessibility. You know, commuting is dead time, but it's really tiring time, I think, as a wheelchair user, you know, sat sat in the car, you know, dealing with multiple different workplaces is difficult, even if they're suspiciously wheelchair accessible, which, you know, they all were actually my ability to function in those workplaces is, is limited, because, you know, I'm a creature of habit and of setup. And so, you know, it's a lot easier for me to work at the same computer terminal, and with the same setup than it is to go elsewhere. And, and so, you know, actually, I had a really frank conversation with the audit partner, that was sort of my appraising partner, and he kind of said, Look, I'm going to paraphrase the way that you've described everything to me. But the way that you've described everything to me is that basically, audit is not for you, which is kind of a little bit scary in a way when your boss says that. But he also prompt, you know, followed it up very quickly with a How about you take a chance of going into our department for professional practice? I, you know, take us a comment with your I will forcefully endorse you as someone who should be given the opportunity. And I went for the interview and, you know, went through the process and honestly, you know, that moment where I sat in front of the class for the first time, and I started teaching, I thought, wow, I can do I can do this, this, enjoy this.I enjoy it. I enjoyed it, you know, because I, you know, other people might not think I'm a people person, but I like to think I'm a people person. I like people I'd like coaching, developing training. And yes, I really enjoyed this, this teaching and that that six months was extraordinary. I learned a huge amount. The training was very good, good there. And yeah, the Adi really there was just a presenter of information, you know, all of the syllabus was produced or for us and given given to us, you know, really, really comprehensively. And I was really just said to present it, and then mentor the students through through the sessions. But yeah, that's what spurred the movement into academia. And, and the reason why, you know, I left KPMG is that, unfortunately, they, they couldn't make it happen for me, for me to be a full time employee to do it permanently, they just didn't have the internal processes to make that happen, which is a real shame, because otherwise, I may never have left, I think oddly now audit in, you know, post COVID times may well actually be alright, you know, good amount, I'm working, much less commuting, ability to work from home or the office. And then to go on to the client site much more infrequently, like, much like everything that was, it just didn't exist at the time, which is why I moved and, and to be honest, you know, I probably been much more valuable to my KPMG as an employer having left than I was working there, because, you know, I coach, many students, and many of my graduates have gone on to work for them and other professional services firms too. So, you know, I think they're happy with the my move out, and I, you know, I'm happy with my move out to wonderful. I mean, it's a very prestigious Graduate Development Program to get in on, you know, in any case, yeah. And, honestly, one of the reflections I have, you know, when I, when I got back to work at KPMG, and I was enjoying it and stuff, and they've been so good to me, one of the niggling little fears that I had as a dis, you know, someone who's disabled was that, you know, KPMG would not fire me, because A, I would work hard to repay their, you know, belief in me. But also the PR, almost of sacking a disabled employee would just be, you know, be impossible, but that I would never really be able to work anywhere else, because I would always be a strong second place, or a strong runner up. And I guess one of the things that surprised me and has delighted me, I guess, throughout my career having left there is that, you know, not any of, you know, I managed to move during just after the financial crisis into academia, I then managed to move from, you know, one, a million plus university, you know, very new university to a Russell Group University, being promoted at a Russell Group University, and subsequently has managed to obtain, you know, some non executive appointments outside of that, too. And, and, you know, culturally in the UK, I think I'm extraordinarily lucky to be live in a society where I've not been second place, you know, yes, there's, there's a lot more we can do in the UK to promote, you know, the interests and the possibilities for people with disabilities. But actually, I think we do have to sometimes reflect on the fact that we are actually a long way ahead of many, many other countries.
Lienkie Diedericks:No, absolutely. And to keep building on that, and also to remind ourselves of how successful certain things have been already. Yeah, but just to pick up on on your bus. You know, having that really frank conversation with you, I think it's so lucky when we have someone like that actually come across our lives. And sometimes it's really hard to hear that, because you had a different idea of your life, maybe before you became disabled, yeah, would be different for people, perhaps you've always lived with a disability. But in my case, I remember I was in the performing arts when I was, you know, had massive motor loss from my hips down. And I spoke to someone in the, in the costume department, and she said, Oh, well, you know, you can still use your hands quite well, you know, you've always been quite good at costume design, why don't you, you know, move into something like that. And, you know, being 22, and really angry at the world. That was never something I was interested in. And lately, I've learned how to sew and I'm doing a fashion design course now. And I'm loving it. And that, you know, there's a little part of you that says, oh, you know, this is something I could do if I'd wanted to, you know, and it's nice to know that. And, anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is like, sometimes when you become disabled suddenly in your young life, or wherever you really listening to how to other people who aren't necessarily disabled, but who have some sort of insight can be incredibly useful.
Richard:And,yeah, it reminds me of inception, the film, right. It's a seed, you know, and sometimes that's it, you know, sometimes that seed is planted at the wrong time. And, you know, potentially you have an adverse reaction to it, but it's still there. And at some time, you know, it may, you know, it may hatch or come come come into the right time and the right moment, and yeah, I guess that's something that I've learned again, throughout my career is the importance of, you know, receiving the advice of others. People, even if it's not necessarily the advice that you want to hear, making sure that you you have sounding boards and various sounding boards too,
Lienkie Diedericks:because not everyone, not everyone's advice is equal, but to, you know, at least have that opportunity out there to listen to people. So that's really important. I was a little bit were trying to do with this podcast as well, even though it's not a direct conversation, but just to listen to other people's stories. Well, I find your rise to your non executive appointments in particularly interesting and particularly sort of meaty, and I'd love for you to tell us a bit more about that, because it's always coming full circle, in some sense, in a really satisfying way. So yeah, please tell us more about that.
Richard:Sure. So I guess I'm in my early career, and I was really lucky working in audit, you know, it's not everyone's cup of tea, most people would probably be bored, stupid, stupid, by the idea of working in there. But one of the really profound things about working in audit is you have access to confidential information. And you speak to members of the board really, really, at an early such an early stage in your career. And as a result, you feel that you're taken seriously and that you you can have influence. And when I moved into academia quite quickly, it became quite apparent how quickly you can fall out of touch with the profession. And accounting as a subject is really one that's going to be somewhat controversial in academia. So academic circles, but is led by the profession, as opposed to by academia, many subjects are led by academia, accounting is not necessarily one of those. And it's really easy for you to fall out of touch with a profession. And I thought, well, crikey, I don't want that to happen. Because my, the edge that I have as a teacher is that good. I'm recently from practice, and I'm trying to share my experience and, and that practical standpoint. And so I started a voluntary journey with my professional Institute, the ice W, the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales. And I kind of always dreamed that at some point, this would manifest itself in an ability for me to act in the boardroom, again, as you know, a non Executive Director, because in the back of my mind, you know, my disability, you know, getting into the boardroom, in an executive capacity is really challenging, because most executive roles are so physically demanding, you know, even though they're office based roles, the hours, the stress of the responsibilities are huge. And I kind of felt that, and I stopped myself from doing it, but I kind of reflected that there was quite unlikely that I would be able to pursue that route, until I started this voluntary journey with the ICA W, starting with a student chapter, becoming Chair of the student chapter in the local area, joining the local district society. And then finally, in 2015, when I became when I joined Southampton, becoming a member of the Council, the Governing Council, and that was really my first exposure to any sort of non executive role. You know, it was an uncontested elected position. So, you know, I, I put my hand up and put my hand up. And I tell you what, it's such a shame that is uncontested because the experience it's given me is, has been invaluable, you know, learning to chair committees, learning the language of governance, you know, getting to grips with arguments over strategy is something that, you know, you just don't get exposure to in a relatively junior, you know, in a relatively junior part of your career. And so I really enjoyed it. And I got a taste for it. And so I was trying to look for other opportunities to get involved in. And another one that came up was internally at the university, looking at the University Senate. So I joined Senate, and when two council seats became available, I thought, well, I'll put myself forward and again, you know, I think they were contested, but not heavily contested. And again, you know, that's another exposure into strategy, you know, helped me learn a huge amount about the university. And those have helped in internal promotion pushes, but also has helped me, you know, more laterally think about where where do I take this experience going forward? And in September 2019, I kind of said to myself, well, I've done two internal eisert sort of two voluntary non executive roles. Let's have a go at putting myself off for some external and you know, hopefully paid roles. And yeah, I started with a local NHS Foundation Trust. I got shortlisted in the first applicant I made, went through the longest of interview got shortlisted and then couldn't make the final interview. Oh, I was back in the day where you're allowed to teach abroad. I was teaching in Holland, it was September 2019. So no one had heard of zoom or teams. So yeah, so we. So the so the interview couldn't happen. But I was like, I'd got a taste for it. And I thought crikey, if I've been shortlisted for my first one, I must be a really good looking candidate.
Lienkie Diedericks:Yes, like confident,
Richard:I think got rejected for about the next 30 applications straight to my next hint or tip that I could give to anyone is perseverance pays. And we fast forward to September 2020, you know, the start of this very challenging academic year for teaching, I thought, right, I'm going to fit, put in three last applications. If they don't go anywhere, then I'll just leave it or park it. And I'll know it's not going to happen. And two of those applications, in one way or another, ended up coming off. The first was for Motability, which is a charity that helps provide vehicles and transport solutions for people who are disabled. And that's a voluntary position, they were looking for someone with, you know, an audit and finance background. So that was helpful. They liked the fact that I had lived experience disability, and, and also having this slightly, you know, quirky, quasi academic, quasi professional range of experience. So I mean, I was over the moon and delighted because although that was voluntary position, it was a first position which was fully contested and was, you know, used an executive recruitment consultant was a two or three stage process. So really rigorous and was highly competitive. I then applied for a non exec position at the National Audit Office, which I knew was phenomenally ambitious, if you look at the caliber of people that they have on the board, I mean, they're just eminent people, people who have been at the very top of their fields, but oddly, I felt in some ways that actually their, their board needed a bit more of an average Joe, who knew what they were doing. But he knew what they were that they were doing, but who could perhaps bring just a very different perspective. And I spoke to a couple of the people that I knew who worked at the National Audit Office who had in new ways any sway in the recruitment process whatsoever, but I, you know, with their support, what I thought was quite compelling application. And, you know, you know, my next piece of advice to anyone, you know, fit perseverance is one, the next piece of advice for everyone is, Be ambitious, because you never know what will happen. And I went through too, I was staggered to be invited to interview I had applied under the guaranteed interview scheme. But I'd had several rejections on that basis, because they didn't think I was appropriately qualified. And I was staggered to be brought through to interview. And I was interviewed. And, you know, I had an answer for all of their questions. But I knew I was still on the ground, was really delighted to have been told to have a phone call with a recruitment consultant who kind of said, I've got some good news and some bad news. I think you know, what the bad news is, I didn't get the job. And she said, Yes. But that you they were really impressed with your application, the perspective the maturity of it. And so they do want to offer you a role within the National Audit Office. And, and they want to want you to sit on their audit committee as an independent external member. And I was over the moon, because that was that was sort of my first, again, a competitive process and my first paid non executive position. Yeah, and I just really, really fortunate to have seen the advert and gone, you know, what, I have a story to tell, and I'm going to tell it, and I got to see what happens. Because, you know, I wasn't expecting anything really. But actually, something really positive has come out of it. And, and literally, you know, in having been appointed to this, I thought I'd have one last roll of the dice. In January, I saw a position at an NHS Foundation Trust very similar to the very first one that I'd applied for. And I think, to some extent, although my CV had all the dates on it, and notified them that I'd only just started at the National Audit Office. But having had that trust plus aced me through the voluntary positions that have been engaged with at the university at the ICA W for a long period, you know, having gone through that appointment for that voluntary position at Motability. And having been accepted by the NAO, one level, that was enough for them along with my, you know, what I perceived as what I could add value in terms of the NHS role in terms of my lived experience of disability especially, was enough to to help secure an appointment to there. And so having a sort of planned, you know, my grand plan, yeah, having achieved the status of principle Teaching Fellow, which is equivalent to associate professor in many institutions, aged, you know, 3334, my grand plan was to try and obtain a paid non exec role. By the time I was 40, and hopefully perfect status as a professorial fellow. And I never really knew which was going to come first, whether or not, you know, getting the title as professor would be the thing that unlocked the non executive roles, or whether or not a non executive role would unlock the title of precept professor, but I'm absolutely staggered and delighted to say that, you know, age 35, a, you know, I've achieved one of those objectives, and also to get to have well to have achieved it for myself, but also, you know, hopefully, inspired others. And as part of the reason why I want to do this podcast inspired others, to try and get involved in this, these types of roles, too, because academics, you know, produce huge quantities of research, but depending on the field that you're operating, okay, you know, quite often that research stays on the paper, and it's never really lived. And actually a great way for an academic to have impact. One is to write case studies. But the other one is to act in a strategically significant role. So I want to do I want it to forge this path myself to see if it was possible. But also, to encourage others to consider looking at this route as well, because it's a really interesting and fulfilling way to work.
Lienkie Diedericks:Absolutely, I mean, I'm very interested in in it as well. So if you, I mean, you've already given us some excellent pieces of advice, but if I, me as a PhD student sitting here, what can I go like, do you have like a couple of things you can say, okay, Linky, you can go and do this at your institution right now is available, probably, and you can start looking into it, by doing it through,
Richard:I guess my advice that I give to my students is working nine to five, and then five till nine, when it's possible to do so because, you know, we all we all have our own private lives. But if you're in a situation, where you have the ability to commit a little bit more time, which is difficult to say to PhD students, because I know they're incredibly busy. And there's a huge amount on, I think there's quite a lot of time to always do the, to try and fulfill the desires demands, and follow the advice of your supervisor. And that's sort of very much in terms of pursuing the purest academic side of things. And that's probably really high on your priority, because you want to secure a future as an academic, you know, and some form of academic career. But my advice would be to try and look at outside the organization or perhaps outside of the academic processes within the organization, see if there is an opportunity for you to get involved in Senate or some sort of university committee structure. Or, if you don't have that ability, see if there are any ways that you can link up with relevant professional bodies. Many professional bodies are, you know, do seek academic input. And they don't necessarily demand that it's from someone who has a full professor or a senior lecturer, whatever it may be, they're just looking for an academic lens, someone who's you know, up to date with, you know, research, you know, research in the area. So do look for opportunities where you can liaise and engage with other professions and acknowledge that it's gonna start with pro bono and voluntary activity. Because that's, yeah, that yeah, no one's gonna pay you to do something that you aren't experienced in already. So, so So do look for volunteer opportunities, stick your hand up, and when you when you get up, get one, use it to its absolute For less potential, try and learn as much as you possibly can about it. And if you are interested in working in a non non executive capacity later on in your career, do think about how you can contribute on a, on a strategic level, you know, learn about governance of the organization, take the opportunity to chair committees, even if they're, you know, relatively lowly committees, learn how Working Papers work, learn the language of governance, because that really, you know, that will really help you.
Lienkie Diedericks:I think, you know, just the word strategic, you know, I don't think if you've ever done that before, worked in that area before, it can feel that people use the word strategic a lot. And so that's also part of it. So learning how to act strategically as learning. Yeah. The processes.
Richard:Yeah, I mean, the other thing, you know, the other thing I've learned is, you know, people, I think there's this mystique about the boardroom. People in the boardroom are just normal people, at the end of the day. One thing that you kind of have to acknowledge, though, that if you are getting involved in this space, is that it comes with a huge amount of responsibility. And I think it stages in my career, you know, if I'm going to be really honest with myself, I kind of was chasing the title, I was kind of treating the progress. And I hadn't really anticipated and appreciated what that really meant in terms of responsibility. And someone put it to me, you know, quite a while ago now, and they put, put something in, put the processes in perspective. And it really helped clarify to me that I still wanted to get involved. But it explained to me the magnitude of it, and it is a concept of the servant leader. And, you know, we normally look at an organizational pyramid, and you kind of racing, you know, you know, lots of people trying to want to race to the top as quickly as they can. And the way that this individual politically colleague put it to me was that actually, you know, if you follow the, if you follow that thought experiment through them, really what you're looking at is an inverse pyramid. If you're a servant leader, and you're the chair, actually, you're carrying that entire pyramid on your back, and you're holding up the entire pyramid. So if you're a member of the board, okay, you're not the single pointer, you're in the top echelon of it, actually, you have the responsibility of holding that entire organization, all of those, you know, 10s, hundreds, or in my case, now laugh more laterally 1000s of individuals, and you're serving them. And that gives you it kind of makes that Race to the Top less attractive, and very much less of the focus. And it puts it in perspective. And it was really useful thought experiment for me, because it, it helped me clarify, do I really want to do this? You know, is it about sort of loosely ego esteem? And you know, something new? Or is it because I really want to contribute? And because I think I've got board, enough shoulders to do it. Yeah. And I'm really pleased that I came out of that sort of thought, you know, after a good few weeks of having an ironing, I came out of that experiment, and I, you know, very settled in the fact that this is something that I want to do, it is the way that I want to operate. And, you know, I am comfortable, arrogantly comfortable and comfortable with the responsibility. I still slightly intimidated and scared by it. But I'm comfortable that that's what I wanted to get involved in and get engaged in. And yeah, it's, it's some thus far, it's been been a joy.
Lienkie Diedericks:Thank you so much, Richard. I mean, I think just listening to that is also really heartening for anyone with a disability, you can shoulder that responsibility, if you are poor, even if you're disabled, you can carry both events. And that's, you know, you don't want to sound other such an inspiration. But that's just really heartening to hear. Because we don't have a lot of role models, often who speak out about that. And then I'm just thinking of myself, I want to apply for a certain thing. I thought myself, Oh, I don't know, if I could really do it. You know, I've got so much to handle, just in terms of myself. But if you've gone through that thought experiment, and you've come out with that determination, it's probably possible.
Richard:Yeah. And the thing is, human capacity is huge. And, you know, I yeah, I think this period of lockdown that we're coming out of, you know, we we have people you know, feeling anxious about, you know, coming out and enjoying life. And I know, I know exactly where people are coming from. When I came out of hospital, my life was really small. So I've been in hospital hospital, I try not to get institutionalized, but it's inevitable. And I remember how small my life was and the fact that getting up and going to the post office, going to the gym seemed to take an entire day. And now if I look at my life, what's coming up to 15 years later, I guess, you know, I have a full time job, I have some other appointments, I am a father to a young boy, you know, I still try and go out and enjoy and have some fun too. You know, the human potential is huge. And I think we can be our own worst enemies sometimes. And sort of say, No, we can't, I can't do that. And sometimes, you really can't. Yeah, of course. But actually, a lot of the time you do have that capacity to grow. And, you know, another piece of advice that I offer to students is to, to back themselves, you know, believe in yourself, because actually, you can, you can achieve extraordinary things. H 21. You know, the day before my accident, I had no idea that I would be able to deal with the stuff that has happened to me. And you know, when I came out of hospital, I didn't really know where I was going to be going and whether or not I'd be able to deal with everything that was, you know, on my plate. And this is not to say that you should load all of this stuff upon yourself straightaway. You've got to give yourself time. But in time you do grow. And all I encourage people to do is if they're coming across really significant adversity is that they do try and reach out for that extra thing. Yeah. They have to balance it with their own diagnosis or in condition. And you can overstretch and I overstretched at one point. And I, you know, I didn't end up back in a hospital, but I ended up in a pretty bad way. Yeah. But do see where you can grow? Do you see where you can do that little bit more take on something new. Because it's extraordinary when you compound it over 15 years, you know, where you can take yourself from and where you can get where you can bring yourself to I guess,
Lienkie Diedericks:thank you. That's wonderful place to end as well. A really high note. certainly helped me think about it's been seven years since my since my incidents. And yeah, like you said, it is possible for your will to to grow again, and just need to be willing to go with it in some sense.
Richard:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, I guess the other thing that I will leave anyone on the podcast is if they want to get in touch, then you can do you can email me at all. Dot j.cartwright@sutton.ac.uk or you can tweet me at insightful, Rich, I don't use it an awful lot that just reach out because, you know, there are certain people that were with me at various points of my journey that have really helped me along the way. And one of the most fulfilling things I can possibly think of is to kind of help people in a similar circumstance or even completely different circumstance, offer them some advice offers them some opportunities to kind of get a start that start that journey for themselves.
Lienkie Diedericks:Lately, thanks for sharing. I'll put that in the description box as well your email address and your Twitter handle. And we hope to hear from you guys. Thanks so much. Cool, lovely listening to today's episode of enabled in academia. Please do like, share and support this podcast on Twitter by following us at enabled an echo. If you have any questions, suggestions or impressions, please tweet at us or send me an email at enabled in academia@gmail.com. The music for this podcast a room for two is composed by Dan liberabit and is available on the YouTube Audio music library. As always, access isn't optional for us to be enabled in academia. Yep, I'm making that a thing.