Revere House Radio
Revere House Radio brings you all things Revere House, from the true story of Paul Revere's midnight ride to lesser-known Revere family history, author interviews, and more! A new season is released each spring.
Revere House Radio
4.2: Two if By Sea and So Much More: Interview with Nikki Stewart
This episode’s guest is Nikki Stewart, Executive Director of Old North Illuminated. She says that Old North Church is famous for just one minute, when Paul Revere’s signal lanterns shone, but there’s a lot more to the church’s long history. Nikki shares information that research has uncovered in the past five years and how it has reshaped their interpretation of the historic site. In the Our Favorite Things segment, interpreters Corbin and Derek talk about historical legends and how people in different eras could have markedly different ways of viewing the world.
- Old North Illuminated
- Hub history podcast
- Play: Revolution’s Edge
- Lanterns and Luminaries event honoring Ken Burns
- 250th events at Old North and beyond
- Upcoming events at the Paul Revere House, including April 18 events
- Dr. Jaimie Crumley on Beulah Speen: “The Social Construction of Race in Early Massachusetts History”
- Dr. Jaimie Crumley’s PRMA lecture "Old England in New England: Contradictions in the History of Boston's Old North Church"
Season 4 Episode 2: Two if By Sea and So Much More: Interview with Nikki Stewart
Tegan 00:00
Welcome back to Revere House Radio. I'm your host, Tegan Kehoe, and this episode is one of the couple that we're doing this season on other sites related to Paul Revere's Midnight Ride. And today my guest is Nikki Stewart of Old North illuminated. Welcome to the show, Nikki.
Nikki 00:13
Thanks for having me.
Tegan 00:15
To start off for listeners who have not visited or haven't visited in a while, can you tell us a bit about Old North Church and your organization?
Nikki 00:22
Well, first of all, a common sentiment that I hear when I tell people where I work is, "Oh, Old North Church. That's fantastic. I went there in fifth grade!" And then this person might have gray hair. So I know a lot of listeners haven't been to Old North in a while. And over the last few years, really, since the pandemic we've gone through, I think, a really significant transformation in our on-site interpretation and our educational programming. Because Old North Church is a historic site that is most knownfor one minute in time -- and maybe less, but we'll say a minute, a minute in 300 years of history. And so there is so much more to offer. And in the spring of 2022 we hired a research fellow, Dr Jamie Crumley, from the University of Utah, to spend a year in our archives researching black and indigenous congregants and their stories. And that has really led to, again, a reinvention, I would say, of our interpretation and programming that has been incorporated into all that we do. And we've also really begun to focus on accessibility as well. And so, for example, our new exhibit can be enjoyed through audio files. We have large print available. This year, we'll be installing three accessibility ramps across the campus to make it easier to get around.
Tegan 01:52
That's great.
Nikki 01:53
And so I think it'll be very different from when you were at Old North Church in fifth grade.
Tegan 01:59
That's great. And can you tell me a bit about yourself? How long have you been at Old North Illuminated, and what was the path that led you there?
Nikki 02:07
I have been at Old North Illuminated since June of 2020, and at the time, I considered that to be nearing the end of the pandemic. And so, you know, my first year or two did not unfold at all the way I thought they would.
Tegan 02:22
Right. rough time to start a new, new position. Yeah.
Nikki 02:26
...Yep. But, you know, the...I now have experienced what I guess we could call normal years and normal seasons of tourism at Old North as well. And in terms of what brought me here, you know, I have always been a history lover, and somebody recently asked me, well, like, "When did that begin? Like, what got you interested in history?" and I really couldn't remember a time that I wasn't. But I do remember reading my grandparents encyclopedias and, like, grilling my grandfather on what his experience in World War Two was like and things like that. So it's always been an interest. But professionally, I had been doing fundraising in youth serving and human services organizations, and had started the Hub History podcast with my husband. Now I was only on that for a few years, and it is still going strong. But fortunately, you know, this opportunity came along to make the jump into public history, and I was fortunate to be able to do that.
Tegan 03:27
That's great. And I think that outside of these two worlds, the kind of human services and things like museums might seem very far apart. And in practice, I think that there's a lot of both values and just logistics that are pretty similar between the two worlds.
Nikki 03:42
Yeah, I was thinking that through. And to your point, if you were to look at my resume, you would say, oh, youth music and then early education and history like it.....But all of the organizations have been hubs of community in one way or another. And I think that's the thread that we find between human services, and social justice work, and public history; it's their points of community.
Tegan 04:07
Yeah. That's great. And as of recording, we're still a few months away from the 250th Anniversary of the Midnight Ride. So what's on your mind as we head towards April?
Nikki 04:16
There is so much on my mind as we head towards April.
Tegan 04:19
* laughs *
Nikki 04:20
There are, first and foremost, a lot of logistical things on my mind. So we are welcoming Ken Burns as our third lantern award honoree on April 16th. And then we are doing a free and open to the public table read of our original play, Revolution's Edge, on the night of the 18th. The congregation of Old North also has an event coming up on the night of the 18th as well. And so there's a lot to do there. But you know, I think we're also just weighing on the significance of the milestones and the significance of the milestone at this particular time. And when we started planning for April, you know, well over a year ago, we knew that no matter what happened politically, you know, with the election, that we would be in a divided time. And in fact, we are. And when I think about particularly the play Revolutions Edge and, you know, the really humanizing aspects of that. So it's set on the afternoon of April 18th, just as...you know, hours before the lantern signal. It is a conversation between, ultimately, three fathers who are concerned about the future of their families, and they are fathers who have endured great loss. You know, lost a child, lost a wife. Cato, who is an enslaved man, is afraid that he will lose his wife and child through separation. And in fact, that is what happens. And I think there are so many people with those same concerns today, and I think that that weighs on us heavily.
Tegan 06:02
Yeah, absolutely. And can you tell us more about the creation and the process of that play? Was it something that you had commissioned, or that was developed at Old North, or some combination?
Nikki 06:12
So the play was commissioned by Old North Illuminated and written by Patrick Gabrieg, of Plays in Place, who have just -- Patrick himself, and Plays in Place broadly -- have been wonderful partners,and they are really experts on bringing historic sites to life through theater. And we originally started working together on this play to commemorate the 300th anniversary of the founding of the Church, which happened in 2023. And we asked him to create a play that had the perspectives of a loyalist, a patriot, and a person of color. And that was really all that we asked of him. And so he came up with this, you know, beautiful 45-minute production of Mather Biles (who had been the rector of the church leading up to the day of the lantern signals), Captain John Pulling Jr (who is a vestryman and one of the lantern holders), and again, Cato (a man who was enslaved by the Byles family). And Byles is getting ready to leave the church. He has either resigned or been fired, depending on who you ask. And I think what's surprising to visitors or to audiences for the play is that Old North was a very divided community. It wasn't a patriot church. We always say, you know, about a third loyalist, a third patriot, a third people who don't want to talk about politics at Thanksgiving, very much like today. And so it, it really is a dialog that helps you see how even in times of great division, there are these three men who have connections. Two of them, at times, have been very good friends, and they're struggling with, you know, what they think is best for their families.
Tegan 08:09
Mmhmm, yeah. And can you tell us a bit about how the church was positioned in the landscape of churches in the revolution? You mentioned that it was kind of...they were a minority group within the protestant denominations here.I think I encounter the assumption sometimes that a Church of England church in Boston must have been a Loyalist church, but you were describing it as having a pretty similar political composition to the political composition of Boston as a whole at the time. Can you tell us a bit more about that?
Nikki 08:39
Yeah. So I think first of all, what's important to understand about Old North Church in its beginnings is that from those earliest years, the congregation throughout the 18th century is very racially diverse, and there was a period-- I forget the exact dates -- when Old North had more baptisms for Black and Indigenous congregants than any other church in the city. And I think it's important to understand that in a context of segregation and White supremacy, because it did not mean that this racially diverse congregation was seen as a congregation of equals. It did not mean that.
Tegan 09:22
Right.
Nikki 09:23
And we know that Black and Indigenous congregants worshiped in the gallery. We know that they were at times, given communion from the King silver...which, you know, on the one hand, is like, well, that's amazing, and that feels very progressive. But of course, it was after all of the White congregants were given communion. And you know, we talk about these things not to besmirch the church, but to recognize the context of the time, and you know the reality of people's experiences. So by the time of the revolution, it's very, very much, as I said, a congregation of thirds. And Old North's wealthier congregants had a lot of connections to the maritime industries, and so we think the policies of port closure and things like that, that were impacting trade could, could have moved a lot of the congregants from the Loyalist side of the spectrum to the Patriot. You know, we always say that people were Loyalists until they weren't. And I will say, when I say we, I mean my colleague, Emily Spence, says that. I'm not gonna plagiarize her. That is an Emily quote. But it's so true. You know, it is a....it is a Church of England congregation. The King is the head of church and country. You do not get more loyalist than that to start. But people also are driven by their own safety and security and economic concerns, just as we are today, right? I mean, everybody's talking about the cost of eggs, but at that time they're talking about the cost of imports and, you know, tax and tariffs and things like that. I suppose that never changes, but certainly that shaped the identity of the congregation.
Tegan 09:53
Right. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Oh, I do want to backtrack a little bit to something you said early on in terms of upcoming events. You mentioned a lantern award, and Ken Burns. Can you tell us more about what that is and what's what's happening there?
Nikki 11:27
So every year since the Bicentennial, Old North has presented the third lantern award.
Tegan 11:33
Okay.
Nikki 11:34
And the significance is that when President Ford attended a service and ceremony at Old North for the Bicentennial, he presented Old North with what he called "the third lantern." And it is a lantern to guide the nation into its third century.
Tegan 11:51
Okay.
Nikki 11:51
So the award has been presented for quite some time now, and it's really presented to individuals who we believe embody the values of the lanterns. You know, hope and courage and teamwork and tenacity and all of these good things. And so I think in this milestone year, there really is no better person than Ken Burns who has done so much to connect the present with the past and to bring history to people in a way that is really entertaining and accessible and yet at the same time true.
Tegan 12:29
Right.
Nikki 12:30
And I'm really excited for his American Revolution film that's going to come out this October. So that event will be on April 16th in the morning. And then on the 18th, just two days later, the Friday, there will be lots of events taking place across the North End and Charlestown, you know, including programming you all are doing here at the Revere House and the programs I mentioned at Old North earlier. And so I think it is a day that history lovers are going to want to look at these organizations, see what's going on and come into town.
Tegan 13:06
Yeah, definitely!
Nikki 13:08
...particularly to see Revere take his row across the river, which I was able to do during the row commemoration, I think in 2014 -- quite some time ago now! I do remember it was very cold, and so people are going to want to dress for the weather.
Tegan 13:24
Right.
Nikki 13:24
But it is...it is powerful to see these things unfold and to think about what they mean for past, present, and future.
Tegan 13:32
Yeah, absolutely. And this rogue commemoration that's that's happening on the night of the 18th is an event that has happened in the past, but it's been over a decade, so it's a great opportunity to see this again. I know that you, as the executive director of Old North Illuminated, and Nina Zannieri, the Executive Director of the Paul Revere House, talk probably at least once a day some weeks. Without, you know, spilling any secrets, can you tell us a little bit about what the heads of two history nonprofits that are two blocks away from each other talk about?
Nikki 14:03
Yeah! I would say there are three buckets. I think there, you know, first and foremost is real strategy and partnership. I think particularly going into this anniversary period, we've been very intentional that we want to do it together. We don't want to compete. We want to make sure we're all, like, achieving the same goals and on the same team. And I think Nina has been a fantastic partner and, you know, a little bit of a mentor and a tutor as well. But then, of course, we also complain about our facilities woes, because we both have them, and woes might even be underselling it. And then, you know, there's a little bit of gossip as well, because how could there not be it's...we are humans, and that's what we do.
Speaker 1 14:04
Yep, I've been at the Paul Revere House for about a year and a half, and the number of times that I have gone to a colleague or gone to Nina with a "is this a known issue?" when it comes to a facilities woe. You know, like, "Oh, the heat isn't working", or, "Oh, that's not supposed to leak" are just, you know, part and parcel with being both historic buildings and buildings open to the public. And there's just a lot that happens here.
Nikki 15:12
I think what would surprise people who don't work in historic sites of this nature is how much of a sensory experience it is. So like you could walk into, I would imagine the Paul Revere House, just like you could Old North Church, and you would say, "Oh, it smells different today," "Uh oh, it sounds different," you know, like, yeah, it's just...you can sense it. "Something's off today. What's going on?"
Tegan 15:40
Yeah, definitely. So at the Paul Revere House, we sometimes get visitors who ask things like, "Was this his actual house, or this is all a replica?" right? And of course, to us, it's clear, you know, you wouldn't be able to tell something it was off by the smell if it were all a replica. But the answer isn't as simple as they expect, because it was absolutely his real house. But also there have been changes and renovations over the years. And so I imagine that you get similar questions: Can you tell us about the history of the fabric of the building and what's original to the period?
Nikki 16:10
Yeah, so there's so much to unpack there. The first thing that comes to mind for me when I think about the question of what's original is the steeple. Because that is, I would say, the most iconic piece of the church. And it is not original. The first one blew down in the Great Gale of Boston in 1804, and then Hurricane Carroll took the second steeple down in 1954, and so we have the third steeple today, and it is a copy of the original. And even then I have...I know our staff feel very strongly: Do we say copy? Do we say replica? Like, what's the language there? Because it means different things. But it looks today as it did in the beginning, although even then, the steeple wasn't constructed in 1723, it took a few years, I think, all...at least a decade, for the steeple to be constructed. So we also, you know, remind people that, while this is a 300 year old building, things come and go. And so we have artifacts that came in, you know, let's say later in the 18th century, in the early 19th century, but they're still super historic, right? Our oldest known artifacts predate the church by about 100 years.
Tegan 17:30
Oh, really?
Nikki 17:30
So we have four wooden cherubs that flank the organ. They were donated by Captain Gruchy in 1743 and visitors love to hear about them because it evokes the conversation of pirate versus privateer, and you know how they came to be. So that's a very...you know what? I'm not going to give away that story. You're going to come to the church to get that one. But they were carved in, we think, the 1620s in Belgium. Now they have been restored a few times.
Tegan 17:36
Right.
Nikki 17:50
So are they original? I think so. But are some of those fingers and toes new? Yes, yeah, some of them are.
Tegan 18:10
Yeah. And I'm reminded of how at the Paul Revere House, visitors will often ask if something is original, but what they really want to know is, "Was it here when Paul Revere was here," right? And he bought the Paul Revere House 90 years after it was built. So the answer to those two questions could be quite different.
Nikki 18:24
Paul Revere himself is not original to the Paul Revere House.
Tegan 18:28
Correct, correct.
Nikki 18:29
One thing we do have going on now that speaks to this question is the restoration of some very early decorative painting in the church. So you know, I mentioned that the church did not always see itself as a historic site, and so decorative painting began in the church in the late 1720s. So these angel murals that we are restoring now were painted beginning in 1727 and into the 1730s. But it seems like for a long time, every generation or two, they would add to the decoration because more funding became available, an opportunity, the style of the period changed. And also congregants who purchased pews were able to decorate them themselves. And so the church, for its first 200 years, was very richly decorated. "Rich" is maybe a word...garish at times. You know, just...there's a lot, there's a lot going on. And so in 1912, as part of a major restoration, the sanctuary was whitewashed. And we don't know exactly why, but everything was covered over. And so we have been really excited to reclaim these angels and also to restore them in advance of the anniversary, because, as we tell people, that's a glimpse of Old North, as Paul Revere would have seen it, and as the lantern bearers would have seen. Seen it. I think it's very hard to restore a building like Old North Church or the Paul Revere House to a particular moment in time. It's maybe almost impossible. But we can tie major elements to various moments in time through the building's history.
Tegan 20:16
Yeah, absolutely. And I like that idea of, you know, "as as certain people would have seen it." And I think that people coming to Boston or in Boston expect a whitewashed church, but that's not the Anglican and the not the time period.
Nikki 20:29
Exactly.
Tegan 20:30
Yeah. This brings me to another question that I wanted to ask, which is that Boston has a number of churches that are historic sites and a variety of ways that that dual identity is handled. And when you're speaking in the past, you're speaking about Old North Church, but then when you're speaking in the present, there's kind of two organizations coexisting. Can you tell us a bit about Old North Church as a church and its relationship with Old North Illuminated?
Nikki 20:53
Yeah, so Old North Church is as a congregation formally known as "Christ Church" in the city of Boston. And the church is constructed in 1723 and at the very end of 1723 they hold their first service right after Christmas. So it is the oldest standing church building in the city. And it is a congregation that was founded essentially to be like a spillover from King's Chapel -- that was a church of England parish in a very congregational city. And so Old North, even though it was a congregation with a lot of wealth and privilege, they were also a minority, and I think that has shaped its identity, at least in those early times. And I think it's important to consider that it's this momentous historic site to us today, but for much of the church's history, it's a house of worship and a community, and it evolved and responded to its own needs. And so we always say that it's right after the publishing of Longfellows poem "Paul Revere's Ride," that tourism begins at Old North, and then really expands over time. And so today, Old North Illuminated is an independent nonprofit, and we manage education, visitor operations, tourism, preservation, those types of things. So we are operating a museum in a church, and Christ Church is operating a church in a museum. And so we have a strong partnership. And you know, we're also part of National Parks of Boston. We're part of the Freedom Trail, so it's definitely an organization and a congregation that is relying on really robust and collaborative partnerships.
Tegan 22:50
Yeah, that's great. So back at the very beginning of our conversation, you talked about Old North being famous for one minute in its history. So let's talk about that one minute. As many of our listeners might remember, Longfellows poem about the Midnight Ride said that lanterns would be hung in the Old-- in the "North Church tower." That that was his phrasing. Was "North Church."
Nikki 23:11
It wasn't old yet.
Tegan 23:12
Yeah, haha. "One, if by land, and two, if by sea, and I on the opposite shore will be." That version of the story is the one that most people know if they know the story. But can you tell us what was really going on with the lanterns? To the best of historians understanding?
Nikki 23:27
Yeah! So I think there are two common misconceptions that our visitors come with about the lantern story, and we can't fault them for it, because this is the myth of the lanterns. So first, there is this belief that the lantern signals were *to* Revere.
Tegan 23:43
Right.
Nikki 23:44
And I have seen families have very heated debates about, you know, "Where was Revere when he got the signal?" And I've been able to say, "Well, the good news is that you can mend this rift, because you're all wrong-"
Tegan 23:57
*laughs* yeah.
Nikki 23:59
-but we know that the signal was *from* Revere, and that this was really, I would say, an insurance policy that he set in place for himself, so that if he was detained or captured or worse, in the crossing across the river, that that information would still be transported by light to Charlestown. And then we also, I think, see a common misconception that the lanterns hung all night, and that, you know, they were seen in all directions by all people and understood, and it's like...well, this was an act of treason. This was, you know, even though it was publicly seen, it was really a secret signal.
Tegan 24:40
Right? And you don't tell more people than you need to tell.
Nikki 24:42
You don't, you don't. And we think that it was up for really just about a minute -- That it was, it was up and down. And of course, we know that even then, by the time that those two lantern bears made their way down, you know, about eight stories of stairs that there are already soldiers at the doors to the church trying to get in and trying to figure out what's going on. And so I think it's actually a much more thrilling tale than people give it credit for.
Tegan 25:11
Yeah, absolutely. And can you tell us a little bit about the people who held the lanterns?
Nikki 25:16
Yeah! So we believe that the lanterns were held by two men, Robert Newman, who was the church sexton, who would have had a key, and Captain John Pulling Jr, who was a vestryman, which, if folks aren't familiar with that term, it basically means a lay leader of the church- - and he was a sea captain. And so, you know, maybe is one of those people whose opinions shifted, as, you know, his wallet, started to feel these policies. We don't know much about the prior relationship between the two of them. We don't know much about how they may have been connected to Revere. And yet, you know, we we actually have a curriculum for elementary school students called History Mystery in which they solve the mystery of who hung the lantern signals, and so in an effort to solve that mystery ourselves, this is what we believe to be true.
Tegan 25:36
Ok. So we talked at the beginning about some of the ways that Old North Illuminated is uncovering and sharing pieces of the history that are not just that one minute, and talking about the diverse stories and that sort of thing. Are there any particular stories or kind of categories of story that have been uncovered in this research, and in this reinterpretation, that you're particularly excited about or that you want to share?
Nikki 26:39
So our interpretation is guided by an interpretive plan that we developed in 2022. And I do want to give kudos to our consultants, Kristen Gallus and Nicole Moore, who helped really bring that plan to life. And you know, we were very intentional about articulating themes and topics and questions that would span all of Old North's history. So for example, thinking about the paradox of revolutions; the fact that revolution does tend to leave some people behind. We talked about the evolving American identity; what does it mean to be an American? What is the power of artists as activists -- and I think Revere himself, was an artist and activist. I don't know if he would have called himself that, but I do, because I think it's true.
Tegan 27:29
Yeah!
Nikki 27:30
And so that has really given us a framework to expand the stories. And I just have to say again, how much Dr Crumley's research has really changed the way we think about ourselves. And really our goal is for all Americans to see themselves reflected in places of prominence, like Old North, like the Paul Revere House. One of the stories that came out of Dr Crumley's research that I think is particularly powerful and relevant today is the story of a congregant named Beulah Speene. And Beulah appears in archival records at Old North and some other institutions at several points throughout her life, and we believe that she was a Nipmuc woman, and possibly Afro-indigenous. But what's interesting is that her birth record does not indicate a race. And so that would indicate that most likely the person is White, because people of the past are very concerned about race and, you know, power and hierarchy and structure, but-
Tegan 28:45
They didn't think of "White" as being a race. They thought of it as the as the-
Nikki 28:48
- as the norm, right! So you'll, you'll note if someone is "other."
Tegan 28:51
Right.
Nikki 28:51
And she was not othered in her birth record. But when she first appears in records at Old North, it is indicated that she is biracial, and that, you know...that's not a term that they would have used at that time, I can't remember the exact phrasing, but that's the implication. And so that's, that's interesting. But then at the time of her marriage, when, you know, notably, she is marrying a Black man, then her race is indicated as Black, and her children are noted as being Black. And so we don't know if Beulah's identity changed -- if the way she saw herself changed over time -- but we certainly can see that the way other people saw her changed over time - - and that there were important notations and corrections and changes, if you will, made in those archival entries. And I think that that's really important to see, because so much of the pushback that we're seeing, like right now in real time, about DEI efforts is how races this "new thing" that people are now concerned about, and it's like identity politics. And it's...you know? It's like, Well, I think this story shows that race really is a social construct. It's really about power and hierarchy. And it's so clear when we see...
Tegan 29:37
Yeah. And it's fluid.
Nikki 30:16
Yeah!
Tegan 30:17
And Jamie Crumley also did a lecture for the Paul Revere House Lecture Series in partnership with Old North last fall, I believe so I'll link to that in our show notes if you want to hear more about her research.
Nikki 30:29
Another thing that I'm excited about is a new exhibit that we're going to be unveiling in just a few months, in May. It's a archeology exhibit that we're doing in partnership with the City of Boston archeology department, and it's going to be looking at the lives of real children who lived in the North End and were connected to Old North over time, beginning with the early 18th century and going into the early 20th century. And so it will be looking at particularly some tales of immigration. And you know how that experience of childhood has changed or maybe not changed over time. And I think that's a great example of a story that we can tell that is powerful and significant and relevant to Old North, but is not about Paul Revere and the lantern signals.
Tegan 31:24
Right. And for listeners who aren't familiar with a lot of North End history, this has been really a newcomer neighborhood for much of its history, especially in the 19th century, but it also at other times. So there are many different immigrant stories that can be told, because we've had many waves of immigration, where the North End is where people were living. Before we close, is there anything that I didn't ask you, or that you didn't bring up, that you want to make sure that we cover?
Nikki 31:51
You know, I guess in closing, I just want to give a plug to especially local listeners, to really get out in this anniversary year! Take advantage of your location. Go to all the historic sites you went to in fifth grade, and give them a fresh look.
Tegan 32:09
Yeah!
Nikki 32:09
Because if I look at what we're doing at Old North, at the Revere House, at the other Freedom Trail sites, National Parks, everybody is doing new and exciting things.
Tegan 32:19
Yeah.
Nikki 32:20
You know, we are open for the season. We are open right now Tuesday through Sunday. Our hours are available on oldnorth.com and I hope folks will come see us and that they'll come see you as well.
Tegan 32:33
Yeah, absolutely. Well. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today, Nikki.
Nikki 32:38
Thank you for having me!
Tegan 32:42
We just heard from Nikki Stewart, Executive Director of Old North Illuminated. Now listeners, if you'll follow me, we'll step into the Paul Revere House for our next segment our favorite questions.
Derek 32:57
So welcome back, everybody, to the favorite questions segment. Want to introduce yourself?
Corbin 33:02
My name is Corbin Young. I'm a Historical Interpreter here at the Paul Revere House. I've been here for about a year. I believe October of last year is when I started. I think my favorite question that we get asked regularly is just generally about ghosts. People seem to be I think...I think people, when they come to a museum, especially when it's a house museum, and it has so much history attached to it, people, every now and then will be like, "Well, what's...have you ever seen anything going on?" Yeah, spookywise. Especially if they're coming from the ghost tour down the street.
Derek 33:12
Same, yeah! So we're here to talk about, you know, the the kind of questions and interactions we have here at the museum on a daily basis. So what is your kind of favorite question that you get asked pretty regularly? Yeah.
Corbin 33:49
Or maybe they're here to see Salem In October, November, it's like almost every day you're getting that question multiple times. Absolutely. They're wearing....usually wearing some Salem shirt. They may even have a little witch hat on.
Derek 34:03
Yeah! Yeah, a lot of people-
Corbin 34:04
A lot of people immediately coming over from Salem. And I think it's always good, because everybody gets a little bit disappointed when you're...when you're like "oh, no..."
Derek 34:09
"Well no, I don't, I don't ghosts."
Corbin 34:10
Yeah, I don't believe in ghosts personally, and I haven't seen anything too crazy. But it is always a really great moment to kind of remind people that there were no witches in Salem and that there was a lot of other, you know, systematic problems going on, besides, you know, communions with the devil.
Derek 34:25
Right.
Corbin 34:26
Which is always a little disappointing to some people, but it can be really eye opening. And I think it important. To a lot of people, they were really receptive-
Derek 34:32
Do you kind of, like, make them think about, like, the real aspect of it, and not just like the kind of fairy tale?
Corbin 34:38
Yeah, absolutely.
Derek 34:40
I always like to say, well, because so many people lived here, definitely a lot of people have passed away in the house. You can try to get them to start to think about just how frequently death would be occurring, especially at home.
Corbin 34:52
Exactly. You talk about Paul's, you know, children who pass away.
Derek 34:56
Yeah, I'm sure someone died in that house!
Corbin 34:59
And I'm immediately like "Oh! Well, there must be some child ghosts running around?"
Derek 35:03
Right.
Corbin 35:03
Well, we haven't seen any.
Derek 35:05
Right.
Corbin 35:05
Not yet.
Derek 35:06
Ok, so what is, kind of, the question that is one that sticks out in your head or something that's your favorite question you've been asked?
Corbin 35:15
My favorite question that kind of sticks out in my head right now is, I always really like it when somebody comes in, especially if it's like a little kid who you wouldn't expect to know really much about the revolution in general, right? And then they start asking you questions. I had a little boy come in, and he asked me a lot of questions about Paul Revere's ride, and he asked me a lot about the sort of fables that came up around it, where he said....he was like, "Oh, well, you know, is it true that his dog got his spurs for him?" And I was like, "No, actually, it's not true that that happened." He was very disappointed. And then he asked about asking for a lady's, he said, dress. But he was like, he had...he asked for a lady's dress to wrap around his oars so he could make his way across the river.
Derek 35:59
Oh, yeah, I've heard that one.
Corbin 36:00
Yeah, that didn't actually happen. And he was a little disappointed. And then he literally hits me with the..."So I guess that Sam Adams and John Hancock didn't have like, a full salmon," just like....and I was like, that's a really niche...
Derek 36:14
Where are you hearing that?
Corbin 36:15
Yeah, I was like, that's a really niche thing that you heard about. But that actually is something that happened.
Derek 36:20
Yeah!
Corbin 36:20
That happened. And he was very excited. You know, I I looked at his parents, and his parents had no idea how he knew that information. He's just...just really into it, I suppose.
Derek 36:30
Yeah, a little enthusiast.
Corbin 36:32
It was awesome.
Derek 36:33
It is kind of fun, though, because, I mean, just because Paul Revere is such a like folk tale guy at this point that there are a lot of like, misconceptions. People walk in thinking that, like, the Midnight Ride never even occurred, or, like all of it's a lie. So it is kind of fun sometimes to be able to, like, pick through the real facts.
Corbin 36:50
Absolutely. I always try to tell people that because of the time period between Paul and people caring about Paul as a historical figure just leaves so much room for him to become a folk-like figure,
Derek 37:01
Right, yeah.
Corbin 37:02
Like Johnny Appleseed, kind of.
Derek 37:04
I think, he kind of is. I mean, he would not have been famous when he was alive, and it was a pretty substantial amount of time. A lot of things changed. It left a lot of time for him to become, like, this weird figure. Ok! And so, to close out, what is something that you wish visitors would ask you more consistently?
Corbin 37:22
I think a lot of people come into the Revere House, and completely understandably so...you know, asking a lot of questions about Paul Revere and really going gung ho on Paul Revere, which is great, and we love that. But it's also really interesting that the house, in a lot of ways, is barely Paul Revere's house. It was only a house for like, 30 years, you know. And so, like, I personally enjoy a lot when people talk about pre-Paul-Revere, and people are interested in what has been going on in this house before Paul Revere. I really like it when people ask me questions about puritanism. And Puritan's ideas of Christmas and what that meant. Yeah, all of that. So I think that, in a broad sense, just questions about sort of the earliest parts of the settlement.
Derek 38:08
I think it's really interesting because it's...it is a very different world to the one that Paul Revere lived in. People were doing very different things. They behaved differently.
Corbin 38:16
The land was more cultivated. It was more...there's roads built more places...
Derek 38:21
Right.
Corbin 38:21
It's like this early Puritan time period is like this age of fear.
Derek 38:26
Yeah. And they were pretty intense people.
Corbin 38:30
It's almost medieval. I always try to tell people too, and that...to, like, kind of like, put it into perspective where, 40 years before the birth of Paul Revere, they're killing people in Salem for witchcraft.
Derek 38:42
Yeah, right.
Corbin 38:42
And then 40 years after the death of Paul Revere, is the American Civil War.
Derek 38:47
Right, yeah.
Corbin 38:48
You know what I mean. So, the house, you know, is there for all of it.
Derek 38:53
Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Corbin 38:54
There's just such an interesting...yeah.
Derek 38:57
It's a window into many different periods and many different kinds of people and many different ways of just viewing the world in anditself. Well, thank you very much for talking with me.
Corbin 39:08
Thank you for having me.
Derek 39:09
Thanks for everybody for listening, and we will see you next time.
Tegan 39:16
Thank you for tuning in to Revere House Radio. I'm your host, Tegan Kehoe, and I am the Research and Adult Program Director here at the Paul Revere House. Our production team for this season includes Derek Hunter, Mehitabel Glenhaber, Cadee Stefani and Adrian Turnbull-Riley. If you're listening online, we encourage you to subscribe in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. Revere House Radio is a production of the Paul Revere Memorial Association, the nonprofit which operates the Paul Revere House Museum. You can find more information, subscribe to our mailing list or social media, or become a member on our website at www.paulreverehouse.org. Or, come visit us in Boston!