Ross Baum & Angelica Chéri: Trust, Collaboration & the Road to Broadway

Ross Baum & Angelica Chéri on Trust, Collaboration & the Road to Broadway

What does it take to stay connected to yourself while building a dream over more than a decade?

In this inspiring and deeply human conversation, I sit down with Broadway-bound collaborators Ross Baum and Angelica Chéri, creators of WANTED, the acclaimed new musical opening this fall at the James Earl Jones Theatre.

Together, Ross and Angelica reflect on their 12-year creative partnership, from meeting as graduate students at NYU to bringing an original musical to Broadway. We explore the trust, resilience, leadership, and presence required to sustain both a creative vision and a meaningful collaboration over time.

Along the way, we discuss the emotional realities behind large-scale creative work, navigating uncertainty, staying grounded amid success, letting go of attachment to outcomes, and why the journey itself may be the true destination.

This conversation is a powerful reminder that extraordinary work is rarely created alone—and that the most meaningful collaborations often transform us as people as much as they shape the work itself.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The origin story of WANTED and how Ross and Angelica first found each other creatively

• What it takes to sustain a 12-year creative partnership

• Trust, communication, and navigating feedback in collaborative work

• Staying present while pursuing long-term goals

• Creativity, leadership, and co-creation

• The role of faith, forgiveness, and resilience in the artistic process

• Letting go of control and attachment to outcomes

• The emotional realities of the road to Broadway

• How collaboration can help us become better versions of ourselves

• What younger versions of themselves would think about where they are today

Whether you're an artist, entrepreneur, leader, or simply someone pursuing a meaningful dream, this conversation offers wisdom on patience, partnership, and the courage to keep moving forward.

🎭 Learn more about WANTED https://wantedmusical.com/

Connect with Lisa Hopkins:
www.wideopenstages.com

Subscribe to STOPTIME: Live in the Moment for conversations at the intersection of mindfulness, creativity, leadership, and living fully in the present moment.

If you are enjoying the show please subscribe, share and review! Word of mouth is incredibly impactful and your support is much appreciated!

Transcript

Welcome And Broadway-Bound Guests

Lisa Hopkins 0:01

This is the Stop Time Podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Hopkins, and I'm here to engage you in thought-provoking motivational conversations around practicing the art of living in the moment. I'm a certified life coach, and I'm excited to dig deep and offer insights into embracing who we are and where we are at. I am thrilled to welcome my next two guests. Two extraordinary creative forces whose work is shaping the future of musical theater and storytelling. Returning to the podcast is the brilliant Angelica Cherie, an NAACP Award nominated playwright, musical theater writer, screenwriter, and poet, who was recently named by the Washington Post to its next 50 list, recognizing people shaping American culture and society in 2026. And by variety, as one of Broadway's top 10 stars to watch. Joining us for the first time is Ross Ball.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

First, not last.

Lisa Hopkins 1:08

Definitely not last. A New York-based composer, singer, songwriter, music producer, arranger, and vocal coach whose work spans Broadway, television, recording, and live performances. His collaborators include Tony winners, Grammy nominees, Broadway stars, and artists from NBC's The Voice, and his work has been heard everywhere from Sesame Street and Nickelodeon to Lincoln Center, Radio City Music Hall, and the Kennedy Center, to name a few. Together, these two powerhouses, Ross and Angelica, are the creators of Broadway-bound musical Wanted. Opening this fall at James Earl Jones Theater, following acclaimed productions at Signature Theater and Paper Mill Playhouse, where it was named A New York Times Critics Pick. Their partnership is not only artistically groundbreaking, but historically significant. With Wanted, Angelica becomes the first black woman to write both the book and lyrics of a wholly original Broadway musical. Yeah, hello. And I am just so excited to welcome both of you here today and introduce everybody. If you don't already know them, they're going to be household names. We've got Ross Baum and Angelica Cherie. Welcome back to Stop Time. Angelica and Ross, welcome for your first time. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Lisa.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Incredible to have you. Rossi and I were both on the Washington Post list next 50. That is true. That's the two of us. Not just me.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, we did an amazing photo shoot.

Lisa Hopkins 2:44

Yes. No kidding. And we will share some of those photos because that was that was pretty brilliant. Just before we get in, I just this is from my heart to yours. So I had a long day, uh, good day, but long day. Um, mostly with my dad. And Angelica, I know how dearly you you held your hold and held your dad. And my dad's going through some rough times. So I spent a really, really long day today with dad. As I go, I put earbuds on and walk out of that world and start listening to

The Song That Pushes You Forward

Lisa Hopkins 3:13

that opening. And do you know, Ross? First of all, the tempo, that tempo never changed that tempo. I felt so empowered, it felt so forward-moving. Which song were you listening to? Gun and Powder.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Oh, yes. I suspect it feels like you're riding on a horse or strutting down the street.

Lisa Hopkins 3:33

Strutting down the street. That was me. I was like, just back off, everybody. I am moving forward, and I'll smile at you if you want to smile, but I'm gonna keep going forward.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Well, that's that's one of the messages of the song, right? It's like through all the challenges that life throws at you, you you grab it by the balls and you and you take hold of it.

Lisa Hopkins 3:57

100%. Well, that's exactly what it did for me, and that's that's exactly how I connected to it. I thought, oh yeah, I was in it. Like you captured that Ross.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Thank you. You it's I'm so glad that you picked up on that. Tempo is such a funny thing, though, because even like two clicks, faster or slower, can make a song feel like an entirely different song, and it really affects the delivery of the lyric. Yeah, especially in the musical when everything is coming at you for the first time.

unknown 4:28

Yeah.

Lisa Hopkins 4:28

How did the two of you first kind of find each other creatively?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

So we were both musical theater writing MFA students at the Tish School of the Arts for graduate musical theater writing and um at NYU. And that program is like basically speed dating between composer lyricists, words people, music people.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

And so

Meeting At NYU And Finding Flow

SPEAKER_00 4:51

the first year you spend basically rotating between the music people and the words people doing different assignments together, and our assignment to create a basically a montage song, extended sequence is what it was called from a Chinese action movie.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Curse of the Golden Flower.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

And we reimagined this sequence as a Grammy's performance. So, like the prince was just in Timberlake, nice, and the queen was Lady Gaga, and we had all of these pop artist references to to represent these Chinese royals, and there was 808s and there was rapping and all these fun pop melodies. It was the first time that I think I really broke out of the musical theater genre, I would say, because it was halfway through the first year. So we had already done probably seven or eight assignments, and we just really spoke the same language and we had so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

It was so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

So then we we chose each other at the end of that first year to spend the second year working on our thesis, which which was wanted.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Which was wanted at the time, Gun and Powder.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah. We met in 2013. We started writing our show in 2014. We've graduated the NYU program in 2015, and we were, I think, the only people crazy enough to keep working. Is that right? You guys the only ones still going? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Yeah, I don't think anyone well, no, but if Alexandra and Eloise, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

They just did that at Syracuse.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Yeah, Syracuse.

Lisa Hopkins 6:55

That's cool. Yeah. Wow, that's some staying power. I mean, we all know it takes a long time to write a musical, but nevertheless, the fact that you're still together.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

And we also pride ourselves on we've never had a fight really in 12 years.

Lisa Hopkins 7:08

Talk to me about the seminal moment when you kind of was like, I think I really there's something here, this collaboration. Not even the project. It sounds like it probably was a lot people-oriented as well, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:19

Definitely. I mean, because we did first, obviously that initial collaboration. Then when you look at the finished product, because it's two things, right? There's finished product and there's process. And the process, like the finished product, we were both like really, really pleased with. But even just the process, we were like, we just literally had fun. It was easy. Like it was, you know, we we had, like he said, like, you know, we spoke the same language. So that just goes a long way. Yeah. And when it came time to figuring out what musicals we would write for our thesis, we were both, you know, tasked to pitch and show and share ideas with different people in the cast. And I remember having this idea because we talk about historical figures as being like source material for a musical theme for a musical. And I thought about my great-great aunties that I'd been told about since childhood. And I thought there's a musical here. And I was just like, I feel like Ross would like, what would that be like? I think that would really be sick. Like, that would be fire if like Ross and I wrote this show. So I was excited to pitch it to him.

Lisa Hopkins 8:26

I just find it so fascinating. The the actual moment when Ross comes into your life. How had you thought, or even before the MFA program comes into your life, had you thought about it being a musical, or was it when it became the assignment that you were kind of like, oh wait?

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Yeah, like it never crossed my mind. Wow before. I I didn't even think that I would be writing musicals. I just I it not it just not because it was just like far-fetched, but it just didn't cross my mind because I was so firmly a playwright. Like I had done before NYU, I'd done just a MFA at Columbia at just straightforward playwriting. But that's when I was introduced to lyrics, but I was a spoken word poet. But I didn't think like, okay, I'm gonna, as a career, like write musicals and then getting into NYU and having that experience, I was still not clocking that you're carrying some family narrative because I just I didn't know. I had no idea. I think it wasn't until the task of think about what your musical you would want to write. Yeah. And then for Ross, just because he himself is such a vocal powerhouse as a singer, he truly writes for the voice. And thinking about Ross, thinking about the strongest way into composing for musical theater, it's gotta be the voice. That's the character, that's the story. And I was just like, I think Ross would kill it. Like, I think we would have fun, I think we would have an amazing time. And I was just hoping he would be down. It's kind of far-fetched, but what we did with the curse of the golden flower was crazy. So I was like, I think he'd be down for this.

Lisa Hopkins 10:01

So when you started kind of working together, did you like low-key go check each other out in your other your work, your other work? Like, did you or do you know what I mean? Or was it, or is it, did you just kind of go with how you how you met each other and what you did together and from there? Because you both had done a lot of stuff. I mean, on your own, like there's stuff to be found, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Honestly, I didn't have much else. I had just gra I had graduated college and then I went to to work as a performer on a Disney cruise.

Lisa Hopkins 10:34

Okay. So you were just fresh off the boat.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, literally. And then the very next day after that I stepped off the boat, I started at NYU.

Lisa Hopkins 10:44

Okay, so that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

So there really was not much time.

Lisa Hopkins 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Um and it wasn't until I moved to the city and started at NYU that I started doing those other things, like the I I formed a music group with some friends from college, and that was how we did like the Sesame Street and the Nickelodeon stuff, and it was all that all happened kind of around the same time that we started writing our show. So I don't even know that I had that much to check out. It really was just like our experience of each other.

Lisa Hopkins 11:30

Yeah. Had you had you composed much before then? I mean, and you are I I I second that you're an incredible singer, right? So was that one of your um strengths that was sort of guiding you in the beginning, or were you always composing?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

I was always a theater kid. And I always sang and I played piano from the age of five. My mom put me in piano lessons and then in theater classes when I was about 10. And uh, we grew up uh 30 minutes away from New York City, so I would just take the train in and go see shows with my friends, and my parents love the theater. So I was always a theater kid. I wasn't always composing. I mean, I wrote little things here and there. I I wrote raps, really inappropriate raps in high school that got me in trouble. Um, so I guess you could say I that was kind of a step into composing.

Lisa Hopkins 12:27

That's funny. Did you write songs? Like, did you did were you like a songwriter ever? Um not so much?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

No. No. I I started writing the the musical as a joke in college, and then um because my mom found everything with piano lessons and the theater camp and the theater program, she she found a summer program at NYU. Um wow. In the in the musical theater writing, they offered us like a summer workshop. So summer before my senior year of college, I did that. And though that was actually the first time I really started like writing real songs.

Lisa Hopkins 13:12

Were you drawn to that? Like, did you suddenly realize, oh, I'm actually pretty good at this? Because it didn't sound like you were watching theater and saying, Oh, you know, I want to write that.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah. What I what I really loved was the vocal arrangements and the harmonies. And that's what I really responded to at first. I wasn't thinking about like the construction of the songs and the the overall like story arcs of the musical. Yeah, I was really into the harmonies and the like the ensemble vocals, and then I got into really into a cappella in college, cool, and I did all the arrangements and the music direction for my a cappella group. And so I think there was a natural um progression from there to the songwriting, but like more specifically the the type of um like communal singing that we do in our show because it's very on it's very ensemble vocal driven, and that was that was the thing that I really fell in love with.

Lisa Hopkins 14:21

Yeah, well, that's really that's thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting. You know, Broadway is like so often glamorized, right? But the path there is so long, as you know, and demanding. And I'm just curious to know from both of you, like how do you how do you stay connected to yourselves through all of it?

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Oh my gosh.

Staying Grounded In A Long Journey

SPEAKER_03 14:44

I mean, for one, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. When you the moment you think we're gonna do this, we're gonna write this, we're gonna put this up, it's gonna be on Broadway next week, you that's when you already just have to just take a deep breath and you have to really surrender to the process. I think that's the first thing. And the other thing is understanding that life has to continue happening. Like it imagine if 12 years happened and we only focused on this one show for the whole 12 years. Like that's the been the focus of our work together, but the rest of our lives have grown tremendously. Ross's career as a singer, songwriter, producer alongside the show. And then me writing for television and film and other street theater plays alongside this show. Honestly, it doesn't take up the calendar year when you work on obviously right now, Broadway, it is more all-consuming, but every year before that, it was just like concentrated blocks of time because we had this workshop and we had this production and we had this thing. But then there would be months where we weren't focusing on it as closely. So you had to continue to develop the other things. Um, so it's just about remembering that you are a whole person, not just this one show and thinking like, what are your all your other interests? Remembering to stay in tune with your spiritual practice. For me, it's my faith in God, it's my family, it's my friends, it's all my other interests and being balanced. Because when you are dysregulated as a person and don't have your own personal balances, like I like the moments that I just like sacrificed everything just to work, like the work suffered. The work is better when I'm regulated and I'm healthy and I'm balanced and I'm, you know, doing the things that regulate my nervous system. So that's something I I'll carry with me with everything. And another thing I'm noticing too, it's like not feeling like you're not prioritizing the work when you're working on something else. Because it's very true that work begets work. I can be working on something in TV, but something that I'm you know searching for or perfecting in a pilot or in a TV episode script shines a light on something that is helpful for wanted. So it's just like it all serves each other.

Lisa Hopkins 17:22

Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. I think that's a really important point because there is a sort of fear, right? When you think, when you're sort of weighing things by how much time you spend on it or worrying about not spending time on it, how that's helping you. And and you're absolutely right. I think that's a a really huge discovery that obviously serves you very well. It probably took a while, right? To to come. Because I mean, we do that naturally, especially when you're passionate about what you're doing. It can become, you know, if you think of your projects, we talk talk about this sometimes as children, right? It's you can't just leave that child like and you go, well, no, no, you you've nurtured that child well enough to leave it alone for a minute, you know. It's uh yeah. What about you, Ross? How do you how do you stay connected to yourself through all of it?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

One of the things that's coming to mind is um the idea of control or giving up control. Um, I find that in the moments that I or in the phases that I'm kind of hyper-fixated or really trying to control something related to the show, that is the moments that I get more easily worked up or um or thrown off or frustrated or hyper-fixated on a certain situation or challenge, and accepting the ebbs and flows over the 12 years has been something that I've learned and something that's been really healthy because for for however hard something feels in the moment, when we get um past it with a bit of perspective looking back, it's it always makes sense. I'm always appreciative for whatever that hurdle was, whether it's um an opportunity that didn't end up materializing or a certain, you know, collaboration that for whatever reason um didn't continue, or if we lose a certain actor who we were felt really attached to. Um just like accepting accepting the waves of the journey.

Lisa Hopkins 19:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Is really really hard to um like when you're when you're first starting out, it it can be hard to cope with with those things. Yeah, yeah. Because you're going through it all for the first time, and we still are going through everything for the first time, so it really does feel m magnified in some ways. Yeah. Um, you're coming up against all of these things. There's they there's no teaching how to do this because every every show is different, every path of a show is different. Yep. Um, so I think rolling with it has been reminding myself to roll with it helps me, helps me stay grounded. And also, also, Angelica really took the words out of my mouth, which is that there is more to life than this. Um, I'm building a business, I have other musical projects, and yeah. Sometimes you point out to me when we have our sessions, you you haven't mentioned your show at all in like the last few weeks. And that's always like nice to remind myself, I'm like, oh yeah, this is huge, but also it's not the only thing.

Lisa Hopkins 21:04

Totally. You know, the thing about it is it's as you guys were talking, it got me thinking of like, you know, the the trajectory, right? That's a period of a big period of time in people's lives, and the the life of a musical is so ambiguous, right? Because, you know, yeah, in in our you know, our pie in the sky dreams, you know, what I'm writing is gonna end up on Broadway or win an Academy Award or do whatever. And probably everybody would share that dream. But what happens is with this ambiguity, is it keeps the more it moves forward, the more your project moves forward, the more ambiguous it gets, kind of, even though you feel like you're getting closer, but you don't really know what you're getting closer to because there's never the promise, right? So so that's like where the where the commitment requires of you, it feels like more or maybe a different kind of commitment, right? I mean, now it's different, and we'll talk about where you are now because now you know you've got the theater book. But up until six months ago or eight months ago, that might not be the case, right? So I'm taking us back to that journey of getting on a train basically, real slow for a while, slow and heavy, and just picking up stuff on the way, maybe changing paths, and like then it starts getting faster and faster and faster. But I'm just curious to know like the waxing and waning. What talk to me about that? Like, was there ever a time that either one of you felt kind of like, uh, you know, you know, we're just gonna maybe just let this go or there were ne there was never a time that I thought that I wanted to like throw in the towel.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

That was that was never

Moving Goalposts And Relentless Belief

SPEAKER_00 22:40

never a thing for me. What has been really challenging is there are powers that be that kind of operate in Broadway. And there are many shows that are circling at one time. And there have been many times over the past three to four years that it's really felt like, you know, this is this is the reading that's gonna seal the deal, this is the workshop that's gonna seal the deal. We've got one more. We're inviting everybody, we're inviting those powers that be, and this is the one that's gonna seal the deal. And it's like, okay, this is it, and then we do it, and then for whatever reason, sometimes it's as silly as like there's a celebrity who wants to come and do a show, yeah, and they they grab that theater. It rarely has has anything to do with you or your talent, it's just circumstance beyond your control. And so that's been really challenging. It's like this goalpost keeps moving, but we don't know, but we don't know what it is, we don't know what what the goalpost actually is, but we just know that it's moving.

Lisa Hopkins 23:57

You said it way better. That's exactly what I mean. You're on this moving thing, right? Where it's just keeps moving, and the closer you get to it, like with going, okay, no, we've gained enough momentum that this could could actually really happen. It's not pie in the sky. And in fact, a lot of people tell us it might happen. So, okay, here we go. But then they keep moving it, right? The frustration of that. What if it never happened? What if what what would what was your what's your backup plan? If you had never thrown the towel, then what does what does that look like if if you didn't go to Broadway?

SPEAKER_03 24:28

I mean, I don't even think, and I mean, Ross, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think it was ever an option for either of us. Like, what if this doesn't go? Like, because even when we were still students, still just writing this as a thesis musical in 2014, and we were in room 256, practice room at NYU, we said to ourselves, like, this is going to Broadway. We had no idea what that meant. I mean, we had a loose idea, we didn't know what that was gonna look like, what that would entail, but we just knew like it was going to Broadway. And as Ross said, and I same with me, like there was never a moment for me that I was just like, ah, I think I'm done. I think we're gonna throw in the towel. We had multiple reasons to think that way. Like we had a pandemic that happened literally like the whole world shut down. Like, literally, we had the first major production at the signature ran from January 28th to February 23rd of 2020. Wow, right before the whole world shut down. Wow. And we were thinking we're going straight to Broadway after that. And you know, we had all of this time. And the truth is that um there were multiple things that were happening, uh, even beyond that, structural changes, the creative team changes, so many different changes. I think it was a combination of multiple things. One, I have to say, P3 productions. Our producers are and have been relentless. That, and that makes the biggest difference is when you have collaborators who believe in you, who are fighting for the show, who are uns who are um unyielding in the best way. Like, we are taking this to Broadway. And I think that was just that they matched our passion because Ross and I had that same passion. Like, this is going to Broadway. We don't care if everything is on fire, like we don't care what's going on. Like, we're going to Broadway. It was never a question where we looked at each other like, well, what do we do now? Like, and even like my father passed away in the midst of this. All kinds of things have happened. I knew that, and I'm gonna get emotional saying this, like, there were times where I'm like, I know I don't have it right now. I know I don't have it in me to rewrite this scene or to do this or do that. But I'm like, I can't let Ross down because Ross is counting on me. I have to show up and and put myself together and do my best because I'm not gonna drop the ball, you know? And there's just like so much to be said about having the right people in your corner and partnering with the right people. Because if it weren't for that, maybe sitting, we wouldn't be sitting here, but to know, like, I'm gonna fight for you when I don't have it, you've got me. When you don't got when you don't have it, I've got you. And we have that same sort of support system surrounding us. It just was like, there's no, there is no plan B. Like this is all the way.

Lisa Hopkins 27:32

It's awesome. Bravo. I mean, it's rare to hear that, honestly. You guys support each other, obviously. Yeah, um, both creatively and personally, but but to have you know the people that are making trying to raise you money, trying to make it happen, um, to feel that way about you beyond just seeing it as a a viable commercial project, which it is, but but clearly that's not their their mandate, right? Like so many, and um, it's really to tell this story. And it's uh you can feel it. The coolest thing is that aside from the incredible story that you're telling, just this energy that you guys have all created in the process of bringing it to the world beyond just the project, if that makes sense. Like it's this kind of surpasses all of it. It's well, in our language, Ross, it's very level six, right? It's really yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

I was gonna say also going off of level six, it trickles down into the company as well. There's like this hunger that I think is like permeating everybody who is involved from our director, choreographer, like creative team, and then the cast is just so um like hungry for it because they everyone believes in it so much, and so it creates it's this this real energy in the rehearsal room, and it really does feel like like co-creation, yeah, like level six, yeah. Um synthesis, right? Synthesis, synthesis, and the core result that is wisdom and joy, and the joy, the joy is I mean, is unmatched, yep.

Lisa Hopkins 29:23

And it's easy to get protective of that, and we've talked a little bit about that. When you when you're creating something so joyous and part of something that is so joyous, it's easy to sometimes feel, especially when you're burned out or you know, things are being thrown at you, to feel a little bit protected about that or defensive.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

I'm curious, does it ever come up for you? You know, it's interesting what you're saying is that you know, we definitely have this, and I've never had to identify it in a physical or tangible way. Yeah. I but there is definitely a filter that we have or this microbiome, this

Protecting The Work From Bad Notes

SPEAKER_03 30:06

bubble, this protective layer, this you know, atmosphere that we have surrounded our child, the show, you know, because there's it's so, you know, it's so difficult to be objective when receiving feedback or when someone gives feedback, because because of how activating some of the subject matter is in the show, you know, we're talking about racial history, we're talking about the history of our country, we're talking about bloodlines, ancestry, we're talking about so many things that are not neutral emotionally for most anyone. And that's especially Americans, but globally, like it's just not a neutral topic. So the the reactions that come come from a variety of places. And so we definitely, when we receive feedback or when we are in collaboration or in you know creation, we definitely have this filter of, okay, we tell because you have to, when it's something that is when you're creating anything, anything, you have to absolutely, and we learn this in grad school, of course, as well. But it's just like, what is useful about what's being shared? Because there are things that are fundamentally just not aligned with where the show is going or what the show is about that sometimes come, or something that comes from a place of, you know, lack of understanding of context or different things, different whatever it is. Like whatever the thing is, we always it always hits the bubble first. We don't allow it to to penetrate the show first. We always look at it before it penetrates and say, what's really being communicated through what's being said here? Because ultimately, it's never what is being said on the surface. Yeah, it's always about what is that thing pointing to. It's it's a symptom. It's like, okay, there's a cough. All right, we don't treat the cough, we treat the the the like the infection underneath the cough, what's causing the cough, right? It's like, okay, this question's happening. That doesn't necessarily mean that's what we have to address. We need to address the root of what this is being, what's being commented on. And fundamentally, when we do that, we always find, oh, there is something that is being communicated through this that will fundamentally just make the show clearer, make it stronger, make it more undeniable. Because the goal is that when we when we put the pencil down on opening night, we can walk away. And for 25 years, people on Broadway will be in the James Earl Jones and they won't be left with the question of I don't understand what I just saw. It's I have this visceral feeling because it interacted with this part of me. So we do definitely um strive to understand what the root is of everything is, instead of just receiving everything at face value, because that just that you can't be, you can't work like that on anything, I don't feel no, that takes maturity. Oh my god, 12 years. I hope we've matured.

Lisa Hopkins 33:23

Well, that's what I'm saying. It's interesting that 12 years has served you well, right? Because 12 years ago, you probably would have reacted very differently. You wouldn't be telling me what you're telling me.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

We were talking on the phone yesterday, and I said, I found this really great TikTok video came up on my feed, and it had this amazing quote, and it said, forgive yourself. What was it? Forgive yourself for the things that only time could teach. Forgive yourself for knowing now the things that only time could teach. 100% I thought that was so amazing.

Lisa Hopkins 34:03

It's on point.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah, yeah, and we can um we can face certain situations and make decisions now in a more mature way than we could 12 years ago. Because when you're just starting out and you haven't established yourself, or um, you're not quite sure your direction, it's so it's so easy to jump on the bandwagon of like either the first thing that comes your way or the most attractive thing or the shiniest kind of opportunity or um or potential collaborator, you know, like when you are vetting directors or producers um or a team, any any team member. Um but with time you realize what are the right questions to ask and and kind of like how to gauge a vibe. Yeah. Um even as something as specific as like when you're when you're wanting to um hire a music director, like not being shy to ask them for some samples of them playing your score to get a sense of like how they play. But it's like when you when I was in the early earlier days, it's like, oh great, you're available and you've done a show on Broadway, great, let's do it. But then you realize like, oh, it takes a really you know kind of of specific kind of temperament, and it's it's more it's more people skills than musical skills, like when it comes to the that specific position. So things like that like we can handle in much more mature of a way, totally, but only time could have taught that.

Lisa Hopkins 36:01

100%. The other really cool thing that's striking me about the time piece as it connects to Angelica, what you wrote, like to your show, you guys, is is that that was a that was a told story that that happened through time and that grew through time until it arrived to Angelica. And then Angelica has also evolved. So her she is the ancestor, but her ancestry in 12 years has also changed. And also there's this new family, right? You guys sitting in front of me here and beyond, that has grown out of this. So it's the legacy and the and the ancestry thing that time has afforded it, right? It would be very different even if it would have been successful 12 years ago. There's something really beautiful and um grounding about that, I I find.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

I mean, absolutely, because like I mentioned, like my father passed away during the life of this show, and he is an un obviously just because of being my father and being, you know, this is his mother, the grandmother Dora, who told me who's you know, had the pictures. Um he's already inextricable from the DNA of the show. But now, as I mentioned before, like Ross and I, there are songs, staple songs that were written at his kitchen table. The last flight that he went on in his life was to come to Paper Mill to see gun and powder that was wanted at the time. Well, gun and powder at the time that's wanted now at Paper Mill. You know, it's just like, I don't know. Like it just, I feel like the world also at large has become even more receptive to this type of story because the way the world has changed in the 12 years. I mean, I remember sharing this with Leticy, our Tulula, the Queen. Um I was having brunch with her yesterday, and I mentioned to her 2014, when we first sat down to write um the show, Mike Brown had just been killed in Ferguson. And we said, Oh, this is the time. Now we is really the time. This is the moment that we have to write this show. And so if we think about all the things that have transpired in the world since Ferguson and, you know, till now, the way that we are talking about race and about our history and about identity and dignity and safety and belonging and community, we are not have we're having different conversations. We're able to say different things, we're able to be more direct, we're able to be more honest and more receptive. And people are wanting and craving more honest conversation than they were 12 years ago. And that only has helped to our benefit as well.

Lisa Hopkins 39:02

100%. The word forgiveness is coming up. Without forgiveness, you can't you can't grow. I don't know. The word just really was blasting loud in my head as you as you were speaking about that. And you know, given that what I do is, you know, for a career is listen, that's all we ever want, right? We is to

Forgiveness Versus Vengeance

Lisa Hopkins 39:25

be heard and to be seen and to move forward in that way.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

It's so interesting you said that because that's actually forgiveness was actually a word that I was meditating on this morning, like in my devotional time as I was like in scripture. That's crazy. And it was, it's crazy. It was because there was it's a it's actually a scripture in the book of Hebrews um about the difference between forgiveness and vengeance. Yeah. And it's like there's this idea that living in the space of forgiveness versus living in a space of vengeance. And I was really meditating on that today. I was like, wow, when you want vengeance, it's almost as though, yes, it's a form of justice, but in vengeance, there's something about you that wants someone to suffer because of what they did to you versus forgiveness. You just want the situation to be corrected and you want compassion and you want to be seen and you want recognition. Because if you can forgive, then that means that you are no longer asking for someone to be punished. You are now just asking for them to have a for the change that's necessary to move forward and to see the world differently and to make different choices. And that's that's interesting that you mentioned that because that was my whole morning.

Lisa Hopkins 40:45

That's so weird because I was getting I was getting literally this feeling. I was like, I don't know why I'm just gonna say it. The word was like literally forgiveness for you. That's so funny. Well, there it is.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Lisa has officially joined the mind link.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Yeah, exactly. We have a mind link.

Lisa Hopkins 40:59

Well, and it's it's really it's really interesting too, because the when when you choose forgiveness, you choose yourself, and that's counterintuitive because it sounds like you're saying you're you're lessening yourself in order to you know to say, okay, it's not that bad, or but not at all. When you choose forgiveness, you're taking care of yourself, right? Because when you hold on to that, it just hurts you, right? And it just is it's so powerful, it's so difficult, but but it's very, very powerful. Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Angelica. I'm glad I'm glad I said something.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Thank you.

Lisa Hopkins 41:40

Yes, what are you most afraid of? You can take it in whatever direction you want.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

That's such a hard question. Why is that such a hard question?

SPEAKER_03 41:52

You know, because I don't think in the sense of this, I have really been operating

Fear Of Fear And Outcome Attachment

SPEAKER_03 42:03

or thinking about fear. It's interesting because people, I feel like people project have been projecting more fear than what I'm actually feeling. People have been asking, like, oh my god, the pressure, you must be so overwhelmed, you must be so exhausted, you must be so anxious. I'm like, not until you like I wasn't, I'm not like you know what's so interesting because I was doing the math, I was like, Yeah, 12 years on this play, but then I've also been writing for a total of 25 years, not to date myself, and I'm just like, Yes, it's Broadway, yes, it's all these things, and not but, but and it's a production, and we've been here, and I think I think the thing I'm most afraid of is giving in to fear, yes.

Lisa Hopkins 43:01

Interesting. Why can I ask why?

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Because then I'm losing sight of why I'm here. If I become afraid, then that means that I am negating all the time that I've invested in this show and in my craft and in our collaboration and why God sent me to this position, and then I'm then I'm taking in the external because it's not coming for me. Like I feel very certain about, yeah, we're here not by accident. So it, you know, like we've we've done the work, we've put in the time, we've invested, we're still asking the questions, we're still doing the work, we're still doing the work. So I'm just like yeah, like staying present.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Yeah. I would I think uh well, I guess since you said just in this moment, uh one of the things that I fear is my own attachment to the outcome, which is easier said than done to let that go. But it also it it's it means that I'm not living in the moment and that I'm not open to the possibilities that I'm not seeing the the more possibilities than my own projection of of what this outcome could be. You know, one can only dream over 12 years you have a show that's going to Broadway, and you formulate this image of your head of what that's gonna look like and what that's going to lead you to, and all of that. But I think the attachment to that is something that scares me, and that I have to constantly remind myself to uh to let go of.

Lisa Hopkins 45:00

Yeah, fair. Yeah, fair. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, that's that's very real.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Then there are moments that I'm like really living in the moment and like super aligned, like sitting in the auditions today.

Lisa Hopkins 45:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

And it's like um my my boyfriend Tyler texted me. He's like, have a great day today. Like this, this is something that little you would only have dreamed about.

Lisa Hopkins 45:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

And that was such a nice reminder of like, it's beautiful, yeah. Like, I literally dreamed about this. Like, we're sitting in auditions for a Broadway show. Yep. This this actually is the victory, this is the outcome. This is this is the thing because we're here. And and I could only have dreamed of this, of even getting to a place where I'm sitting in a room and having all these incredible artists come and sing our songs and being surrounded by a whole table of collaborators that that I love so much. And like this that's actually the thing.

Lisa Hopkins 46:09

Yeah, the ultimate I get to.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Totally.

Lisa Hopkins 46:13

Choice with gratitude. I'm here and I'm grateful for it, right? Totally, yeah. Angelica, it's Ross actually answered before I asked about what younger self would be proud of. What about you? What when you were a little girl? Can you think back to to young Angelica?

SPEAKER_03 46:30

It's so funny, and this goes again back to my father because he has said, he's said for many years that I became a storyteller when I was a little girl. I did not think that

Younger Selves And Daily Recharging

SPEAKER_03 46:42

I was going to be a professional writer. Like I didn't think that I was gonna write for theater for the longest time. I thought I was gonna be a physical therapist. But I was doing theater, doing performative things since I was little. I was in Shakespeare competitions in middle school, like nerdy, like those drama geeks, you know, like it was the funnest thing. And then started writing plays. When I say 25 years, like I wrote my first play in high school. Yeah, like I wrote a one act in ninth grade and then another uh full-length in 11th grade, and it just started to click there. But even when I was a little child, my father and I played because he was a singer and vocalist, and he um did voices with Yogi Bear, and we did this game where I would like he would do the characters and the voices, and I would tell him the storylines and tell him what to say and give him lines. And he was just like, you know, you've been doing this since you were a child, like you should um pursue this and take this all the way. And so I think little me would be shocked, like little, like six-year-old me would be like, oh my God, like this is crazy. Like, we're really playing make-believe for a living. Like, this is wild, this is awesome. But then I think 16-year-old me in the 11th grade would think, Wow, yeah, okay, so this was not just some fun thing you we did on the side, and like thought, this is cool. It was like this really is our life's mission, is to really tell these stories, and that's I think I would be really, really excited.

Lisa Hopkins 48:28

Yeah, and your dad will be so friggin' proud. Well, how do you guys recharge? Like, you know, you have you have busy schedules, you're running around doing a lot of stuff, you're human, you live in a stressful world that we all live in. Anything that really works for you to recharge?

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Wally. Yeah, my dog. He probably lives in the moment more than any being on this earth that I know. Wally and sound baths. I love a good sound bath.

Lisa Hopkins 49:02

Do you get recharged when you're with people, or do you do you feel like you need to be more alone? What about you, Angelica? How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_03 49:09

Definitely both. Like, you know, I definitely need my alone time, and that's my like my worship, my prayer. My cat. I haven't I have the fluffiest. I'm surprised he didn't make his way in here. Um he's sleeping, it's his time, but um he's recharging. He's he's recharging. I take I take my cues. I learned so much from watching cats, but yeah, definitely that, and then my my fitness, like I'm doing hot yoga and step and hiking and just being outside, like all of that fuels me.

Lisa Hopkins 49:45

I usually do uh finish this phrase. Um, most people think this about me, but the truth is, but instead of that, we're gonna do most people think collaboration is, but the truth is, and I'd love to hear from both of you kind of what yeah, you can take a minute to think about that.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

I think most people think collaboration is like

What Collaboration Really Means

SPEAKER_03 50:08

just working together and the best idea wins, and that's part of it, but collaboration really is someone helping you to become a better person. Because I really feel like our like working with Ross, like it's not just oh, this lyric can be clearer. It's just like, oh, I can be, I have learned so much more about where I can be stronger as a person and where I can push and where I can be clearer, and like just the the overall point of our collaboration has not just been about the work. It's literally have been has been for me about like who I am as a person. So I'm just like, yeah, Rossi has definitely made me a better person. Likewise, it's so true.

Lisa Hopkins 51:04

That's beautiful. But yeah, Ross, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Most people think collaboration is working together on a common goal, but collaboration is leadership in the sense of, and this is something that you have taught me, leadership isn't is as a concept is not hierarchical. It's actually about the exchange of energy. And so I lead not up and down, or I'm not led by somebody who I perceive to be above me, but in a true collaboration, everybody is leading each other at all times, and it takes shifting one's own energy and also reading other people's energy and responding to that and being able to shift your communication in a way that accesses the energy of the other person, and so collaboration is leadership, yeah.

Lisa Hopkins 52:21

Energy leadership, baby. Yes, brilliant, so proud of you.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

I couldn't have done it without you, I could not be here without you, honestly.

Lisa Hopkins 52:32

Well, it was a collaboration. I mean, coaching is is a is a co-creation, totally. So, because I'd be a horrible coach if I was leading you all the time. If I was leading you where I wanted you to go.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

I love it. And leadership is be also being willing to to be led. It's not just yanking somebody in your direction and saying, come on. It's also being being open um for that that flow to be led. Because I think the best leaders do not lead with a heavy hand, the best leaders are actually the best listeners.

Lisa Hopkins 53:06

Yep, 100%. Rapid fire. What makes you feel most alive?

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Roller coasters, dancing.

Lisa Hopkins 53:17

What makes you lose track of time?

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Music, production, spending time with friends.

unknown 53:26

Okay.

Lisa Hopkins 53:27

What makes you doubt yourself?

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Overthinking. Oh, can I say overthinking too?

Lisa Hopkins 53:36

Can I steal that? Sure. What makes you keep going? My collaborators. My future.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

Just knowing that there's a future.

Lisa Hopkins 53:47

I love that. What makes you feel connected?

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Um, deep conversation.

Lisa Hopkins 53:56

What makes you feel hopeful? The sky.

SPEAKER_03 54:01

Oh, I love that. Prayer.

Lisa Hopkins 54:06

What makes you feel creatively free?

SPEAKER_03 54:09

Music. Seeing the creation in front of me. Ah, oh, I love that.

Lisa Hopkins 54:16

What are the top three things that happened so far today, Ross?

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Top three things that happened today. Well, someone someone came into the audition and just killed it. Like the door shut, and and people were just writing stars next to their name. Nice. Every single person was like, wow. That's awesome.

Lisa Hopkins 54:41

Was it a surprise? Like, were you expecting that to be to happen when total surprise?

SPEAKER_00 54:45

I didn't had no idea who this person was.

Lisa Hopkins 54:47

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Yeah. Yeah. That's exciting. That was one thing. Two. Oh, my tr my trainer told me I should start a cut. And and um, and for the second day in a row, I'm I'm I'm holding faithful to that.

Lisa Hopkins 55:02

All right.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

So that was that was two, and I'm doing well on that. And then three, um this.

Lisa Hopkins 55:15

Yeah. This. Nice. Thank you. And Angelica, what about you? What are the top three things?

SPEAKER_03 55:24

So the top three things, um, so I just like I mentioned, but when I I just had this massive revelation when I was in my meditation prayer time this morning, so that was definitely the first. And then I did a hot sculpt class that was I I lifted up to I like I went up uh a weight in a couple of exercises. So Rossi and I, we both have a physical fitness element in ours. Yeah. Yes. And then um then the third, I found um, oh, what is what would be the third? The third, oh, I had the sweetest like voice message from my best friend when I woke up. It was just like, oh my god, this is about when our like we hung out yesterday, and so it was just like, Oh my sister, you know, it was that's nice.

Lisa Hopkins 56:21

How about you? Of course, this, yes, we have a movie. This is definitely one of the tops, yes. Um and within this was actually me saying the forgiveness thing, and then and then that was an op that was a place where there was a space, like where I always talk about this. I mean the name of my book. The places where there are spaces, like literally, because I could have just not created

Looking Ahead To Rehearsals And Opening

Lisa Hopkins 56:44

that space, and had I not, we wouldn't have made that connection. Do you know what I mean? So that was really special for me. Um, and thank you for coming into the space. So that was really very cool. What is something you're looking forward to after this call, like today, like in the next very short period of time, and then ultimately in the future?

SPEAKER_03 57:04

Oh my gosh, definitely smushing my kitten. Definitely looking forward to that when he comes out from under his uh in his he likes to nap in the sink. So as soon as he comes out of the sink, I'm gonna like the bathroom sink because he's super fluffy and the porcelain helps with air conditioning. His little undercarriage. Um, and then what am I looking for to long term? I mean, that this might be obvious, but yes, I'm looking forward to standing in the theater on an opening night. But even I think maybe more than that, I'm looking forward to the day that we move into the theater. That we take the rehearsal into the space and that we get to like move into our home, which is the James Earl Jones.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

What about your asking? Yeah. I'll I'm gonna do it the um other way around. Yeah, other way around. So what I'm looking forward forward to in the in the future is um I think the first day of rehearsal I'm really excited about to see to stand in the circle and see all of the faces and all of the all of the people who are going to be um on this section of the journey with us because it's always been a different group of people. It's inevitable that it's always a different group of people. And we're obviously in auditions right now, so it's really in flux. And so I'm I'm just excited to see first day rehearsal. Who are the actual people that are going to be telling this story on Broadway? And what I'm most looking forward to right after this is you know, after you have a full day and you turn the lights off and your head hits the pillow, and you just do that end of the day exhale. Um, it's like an exhale of gratitude. And I'm just like, yeah, I did that. I did that day. Yeah. And I love that just that breath, that exhale. Yeah. When your head hits the pillow and you could just release and also just feel some gratitude.

Lisa Hopkins 59:15

Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. You guys, I cannot thank you enough for coming on. I I I expect that you can feel it. I have so much love, respect, excitement, support coming your way. I mean, it's just it's just a beautiful thing that you're doing, and it's so important. But again, it's the way you're doing

Final Thanks And Living In The Moment

Lisa Hopkins 59:38

it that is so impressive with such love and grace and care and integrity, like all the things. And I'm just, I'm just so proud of you. I'm looking forward to being there with you on your opening night. Yeah, yeah. I want to be there so bad. So yeah, count me in.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

100%. You know, thank you.

Lisa Hopkins 59:59

And and and to to your point, Angelica, um, you said one of your um your answer was hugs. Yes, and I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, because I've gotten to hug Ross, but not you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

She gets hugs, you both give good hugs. We can do a group hug, maybe 100%. After your individual hug, we can do a group hug.

Lisa Hopkins 1:00:23

That's I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

That sounds perfect.

Lisa Hopkins 1:00:25

Perfect, but I'm not going to take up any more of your time. I've been speaking today with Ross Baum and Angelica Sheree. I'm Lisa Hopkins. Thanks so much for listening. Stay safe and healthy, everyone, and remember to live in the moment. In the moment. In music, stop time is that beautiful moment where the band is suspended in rhythmic unison, supporting the soloists to express their individuality. In the moment. I encourage you to take that time and create your own rhythm. Until next time, I'm Lisa Hopkins. Thanks for listening.