I Believe You, with Elisa Fernandez Saenz

In the first episode of this mini-series, we've heard why WHO/Europe launched the Special Initiative on Violence Against Women and Girls. In the second, we spoke with UNFPA on how health systems can and are practically taking steps to help tackle gender based violence.

In this third episode of 'I believe you' we speak with Elisa Fernandez Saenz from UN Women Europe and Central Asia. We hear about Elisa's upbringing in Costa Rica, what led her to her work with UN Women, how important cooperation across sectors is to addressing gender inequality and much more.

I Believe You is a three-part mini series for WHO's Health In Europe. This is episode three. 

Listen to episode one: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1109867/episodes/19542850

Listen to episode two: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1109867/episodes/19569187 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You're listening to WHO's Health in Europe, and this is the final episode of our miniseries, I Believe You. My name is David Barrett. I believe you is a podcast series which discusses the impact of violence against women and girls and what steps we can take in this context. Over the last two episodes, we've heard from Dr. Hans Kluger on why WHO Europe made this a priority. And we also heard from UNFPA's force power on why these systems is so often violence becomes difficult. Next week, we're going to fight in the conversation and ask why the violence is directed. Together they talked about the organized backlash against women's rights and about why violence is really the question about power.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

First, Eliza, thanks so much for joining us on this episode. One of the things we're doing with this little series is that we're trying to find out a little bit more about the individuals who we're interviewing, get to know a little bit more about their backgrounds and what led them to where they are today. So perhaps if you don't mind, could you describe a little bit about your your upbringing and your your journey to your current role at UN Women?

SPEAKER_01 1:51

I grew up in Costa Rica and I was uh there. I studied my primary high school university in Costa Rica until at a young professional age. I started my international career, first in the Washington, DC, and then I moved to the UN. And I've been for many years now, 18 years at the UN Women, which I'm absolutely proud of. And um when I think about my life and my journey and um what took me here, it was a little bit of a series of accidents, but also um um a life that built into what I'm uh today, you know and uh something that I can reflect from my life in Costa Rica is as much as I love uh my country as a child and young woman who utilizes a lot public transportation, you know to go to school, to go to my sport classes, to go to university. Um I often experienced uh sexual harassment in the public space, you know, either in the streets, uh we do a lot of uh uh harassment, supposedly, uh is to say nice things to women, and I I using my fingers to say, you know, with irony, um, you know, you receive as a young woman a lot of harassment or touching, you know, and I have a series of experiences throughout my life that I took um I took as private problems, as things that happen to you, and they are like a little bit of collateral damage, you know, for you to be out there in the world, to to go to my swimming classes or to go to my university. Well, of you have to endure a little bit of things that I always thought it was um a private problem because nobody talked about it. You know, I had a lot of women in my home, in my family, and nobody alerts you, you know, that you will be out there and you know, men will try to touch you or will dictate you very sexual things in the streets. And um I have to say that it was through my career and especially I think at some point when I was uh in my work at UN Women at some that I really took uh this awareness that no, this is not a private problem, it's a public problem. You know, every time a woman is hurt, violated, uh at home or in the public space, it's a public problem because of the of the level of incidence and prevalence that we have in the world. So imagine, you know, my own personal experiences, my education in psychology, uh, my experiences also moving to other countries where I didn't experience the same kind of harassment, all of this, and working at UN Women and strengthening this awareness about women's rights, all that combination uh brought me to where I am and to be uh to really believe on this cause as something that you know is a is a non-ending business. Unfortunately, is is is it's too big of a problem for all of us, but I'm committed to be part of the solution and the work to make a difference. So that's why, you know, I'm I'm very happy to be working at UN Women.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Thanks, Elisa. Really um inspiring, I think, and to hear your story and and uh and where you come from. And I wonder now working in UN Women. Uh in a kind of supportive space, uh, but at a moment in time where we're seeing so much backlash against women's rights. How do you approach that as a female leader working in this space and particularly with stakeholders outside of UN women? Uh, how do you manage that personally?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Well, um I I think as a woman um uh we all experience backlash, you know, but uh in different ways. But as a feminist, I see this this cons with concern something that is becoming um a trend that is more serious, more articulated, more organized. And that um I used to naively think that progress to gender equality was a line of progress. You know, I'm so proud to see the difference between my reality and my mom's reality, you know, and all the opportunities I had to see progress on women's rights and women's empowerment at so many levels. But then we start seeing more and more systematic backlash, and this is uh a big concern uh from us at UN women, you know, what we see is that it's not incidental, it is organized and political. In 2024, we re we the data we have is that one in every four countries reported a backlash on women's rights. So it's really something that is here with us. Uh it's being put in question like something that is negative for society when you know uh we see uh the great opportunities for society when women have equal rights. So also we see with concern all these attempts to dilute um international commitments, uh standards like the Beijing Placerie or the Istanbul Convention, and to question the legitimacy of women's rights organizations. We're also seeing online harassment targeting women's leaders or activists or journalists. And um in conflict-affected context, we're also seeing uh that gender equality is the first uh priority to be sidelined, you know. So um we know progress is not uh guaranteed, um but um now it's very clear that we can also have a have and have a high risk of regression in many places um in the world. So maybe to answer more directly what you asked me, um how do I handle that? So I first uh by recognizing that the backlash is often a reaction, a reaction to change. Resistance doesn't mean failure necessarily, but it means transformation, the transformation is underway. And uh secondly, I draw strength from the women around me. So, you know, when I um look around me, I see so many women that inspire me, starting by my mother, that is 93 years old and a very bold and wise woman. But I also see the younger generation, uh, I see the new feminists and all these women that are out there in social media and out there sharing their ideas and how courageous they are, how they're bold and apologetic. Um and I also look at colleagues and partners across uh our region who continue their work in extremely uh difficult circumstances. And here I want to share my own experience. I was in uh Ukraine very recently on occasion of the uh four years of the uh Russian war on Ukraine, and um I saw the women-led organizations, how they are uh delivering services, documenting violations, supporting survivors. And they are doing all this in a context of uncertainty, of security threats, power outages and cold and lack of sleep, you know. And when you witness that level of courage, it really reframes uh your own challenges. And it has really deeply moved me, it has inspired inspired me to see firsthand women's organizations and how they're holding communities together in the most uh fragile context. So um there is a lot that is at stake. And in Europe and Central Asia, that is our region, we have seen progress, we have seen laws improved, we have seen protection frameworks that are expanding. Um, but the group the progress on paper not always means uh protection in practice. So I want to just finish with a reflection that regression is possible. We're seeing that, uh, but acceleration is also possible. So I choose personally and professionally to be part of the acceleration and change.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Thanks, Lisa. And I think um it's it's interesting what you're touching upon there, in particular what you're saying about we assume this this line of progress is is sort of linear and it's it's always going to keep going forward, and we have these these um these uh yeah backlashes as you've said. But I think also to the final point you were making there about this kind of uh overarching sense that it's sort of almost everyone's responsibility in terms of how we how we advance these. And um, I mean obviously one of the things part of the reason we're speaking to today is the special initiative on uh violence against women and girls that that which in Europe's working on is very much bringing in the health sector in into that as well, and and that kind of um uh cross-uh disciplinary or or multisectoral, sorry, I should say, approach to to doing things. But uh perhaps to people listening to this, it might not be immediately clear to them in terms of your work on gender equality and and the work on violence against women, what exactly does does gender equality have to do with with violence against women in that sense?

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Thank you. That's an excellent question. And uh when we talk about violence against women, what we're really talking about is power. So violence does not happen in isolation, it happens where inequality already exists, when it exists in the laws, in our institutions, in our economies, in our social norms. So where women are treated as subordinate, violence becomes like a way to maintain control. So the connection is structural. When boys are raised to equate masculinity with dominance, control, uh it control can be normalized and when women lack economic independence, um living abuse abuse becomes harder, no? Um and when police and the courts fail to respond, um perpetrators can act with impunity. So we see a connection of all the dimensions. And so inequality creates con the conditions for violence to persist. And the scale in in which violence is happening against women, uh, we can definitely not ignore it. In Europe and Central Asia alone, an estimated 24 million women have experienced physical or sexual violence by by an intimate partner in in just a 12-month period. 24 million women. This is not a marginal issue, this is a systemic one. And violence is evolving. And this is important to understand uh because today more than half of the women are using digital technologies in our region and they are reporting uh some some form of technologically facilitated violence. Half of the women using technology, no. So either they are experiencing online harassment or stalking or image abuse, and the digital world is not separated from the real world, and it reflects and amplifies uh the same inequalities. So at the same time, uh we see that our legal protections are incomplete, and of the 16 countries in the region with available data, we realize that no one, no one country, no one country has fully comprehensive legal frameworks to prevent and address violence against women. So we really have a gap in the legislative side of things. So this is why gender equality matters so deeply in this conversation, because violence against women is both a cause and a consequence of inequality. So that when women lack economic independence, they may be trapped in abusive relationships, and when justice systems are failing to respond, impunity at the end gets normalized, and when the leadership space excludes women, the policies fail to reflect the survivors' realities. That's why gender equality matters across society. So the gap is not easy to knowing, the gap is not knowing in what to do, but the gap is in the implementation that we find. So so we need to refine the legislation, but we also need really to make an effort to move from legislation to implementation. So ending violence requires more than loss in paper. They will require prevention, so changing harmful norms, including ideas of masculinity, eliminating the ideas that associate the masculinity with strength and control. It requires protection, quality services that truly are survivor center, it requires the prosecution, accountability without the re-traumatization of the survivors, and it requires empowerment, so ensuring women have equal and economic political power. And because women have uh because at the end of the at the end of the day, when women have equal voice, they will have uh equal income, equal representation, and societies will end up being safer and more stable for everyone.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Thanks, Lisa. And I think an important reminder for us of how important it is that the health and the justice sectors work together. And I'm reminded of our report that we published last year. It's quite difficult then to tackle these issues of violence on those different layers and levels. And I'm just wondering if someone who's working on both of those issues and UN women have a strong voice in peace as well. How do you manage that and approach that?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Well, uh very important question. Conflict doesn't create inequality. What conflict does is that it exposes and magnifies it. And in places where women are excluded from power and protection, violence escalates rapidly during the crisis. And this is why we see increases in sexual violence and trafficking and exploitation and domestic violence during displacement. And more than 600 million women and girls globally live in conflict-affected areas at this point. So sexualize sexual violence is often used uh deliberately in conflict. We we heard that and we know that, uh, to terrorize communities, to displace the population, and to destabilize uh societies. And the latest UN data shows that conflict-related sexual violence is rising, not decreasing. So this is a very serious area of concern. Um in 2024 alone, we saw a 25% increase from the previous year. And sexual violence continues to be used deliberately as a tactic of war. So um, but also it's really, really important uh to not only associate women as bigness, uh as victims of conflict and uh in a victimized role. We need to see women in their power, women as mediators, as humanitarian responders, as negotiators, and as community leaders in situations of conflict. And evidence shows that peace agreements are more durable when women meaningfully participate in negotiations. And so anti-violence against women is not separate from peace and security, it is central to it. And if we really want to sustain peace, we must ensure justice to survivors. That means accountability and it means access to services, it means embedding gender equality into humanitarian action and uh recovery efforts and peace building. So everything needs to be understood in their systemic relationship. So investing in gender equality is not a soft issue or is an stability strategy, it reduces the drivers of violence, it strengthens the institutions, and it builds social cohesion. And ultimately, it creates lasting peace. So speaking about ending violence against women today is not an idealistic thing. It is practical, it is urgent, and it is directly linked to peace development and security. So I really appreciate that we're having this conversation at this time in in reality, in society, when we see so many conflicts uh uh erupting and evolving.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Thank you, Eliza. I think that was uh a really good point to finish on, and um I think for anyone listening, it's it's kind of clear the yeah, as as we said before, it's it's everyone's business in that regard. So um so thanks so much for your time. We really appreciate it, and uh thanks so much for coming on. So um Melanie, that was another really interesting conversation that we're uh we've had with uh, and that's the the third and the final one in this little mini-series we've done with with uh the the regional directors of of WHA Europe, um UNFPA and now UN Women. And I mean, aside from the content itself, I mean it's really clear how much uh Eliza cares about this topic. I think uh it really, really came through in in her answers. I think perhaps one of the things I'd like to get your thoughts on are are in particular about the backlash uh and how organized it is, but also this this multisectoral response aspect. So in terms of uh health systems as being a uh a place where where uh people can go if if they have been if they have been a victim of of gender based violence and linked to artificial initiative, I guess uh that's something Important to recognise, but um how health systems can really fill those gaps uh in society that that allow violence to go go unchecked. And again, I mean um maybe you can speak a little bit more to this as well, but this implementation issue of how many countries actually have strategies for uh tackling violence and ensuring post-rape care in our region. So just be just to get your thoughts on on the interview in general, but but those points as well.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Yeah, thanks, Greg. I mean, I I think she's amazing, Elisa. Um, and sh as you said, she's so passionate about what she does, and we work really closely together with UN women on these issues. And one of the things I think when we talk about implementation that came out in our report is that less than 40% of the countries in our region actually have those components of post-rate care in policy. So here we're not even talking about implementation in terms of what's actually available. Um and so that's I mean really critical. That that's the point that we need to get to. But also, I think what's really interesting and what Elisa pointed out is that violence against women is both cause and effect of gender inequality. So it goes well beyond the health sector alone. And so often I hear this, and we heard it also from other interviewees. You know, we heard Han saying that, you know, he was asked, why are we doing this? This is not a health issue, this is something for the police, but this is a health issue. You know, there's critical life-saving care that needs to be provided in a finite time. You know, you've got 72 hours to provide that PEP. Um, and I think when we look at that multi-sectoral coordination that Elisa illustrated so beautifully in terms of how we must work with broader stakeholders, how we have to work together across sectors, particularly in the context of the backlash that we're seeing. Um, it's critical. So health needs to be strong, but we also really need to be interconnected with the other sectors, and we're trying to mirror that with the way that we work with other UN agencies in terms of linking the health response to broader gender equalities to address the root causes of violence. Uh, because ultimately, you know, we don't want survivors to end up coming to the health services. Um, you know, we want them to live lives free from violence because it's it's everyone's right to that.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

No, absolutely, absolutely. I think that's a good way of framing it as well, that it's not a saying that health services should now be the only place it's it's multi-sectoral, exactly, in that sense. Uh, but obviously health systems have a role to play within that as well. Um, but with that, Melanie, I'd just like to say thanks very much for for these last few episodes. Um, depending on on how popular these are, maybe we'll come back with a few more in the future. But um, as someone who's not really got the technical expertise in this, I've certainly learned a lot over the past uh few weeks as we've done these episodes. So thanks very much and hope that we get to speak again soon.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

Yeah, thanks, Greg. It's been a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

This has been I Believe You, a podcast miniseries for WHO's Health in Europe. Many thanks to the producers and hosts, Melanie Hyde and Greg Bianchi, and very much to our guests, Dr. Hans Kluge from WHO, Florence Bauer from UNFPA, and Elisa Fernandez Science from UN Women. Music for the series is from Dick Johnson, Michael Botzoro Paulos, James Cox, and Julian Dine. Health in Europe's theme music is by Ben Kling. Health in Europe will be back. See you then.