Health In Europe
Health In Europe
The Conversations We're Not Having About Alcohol
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When we talk about alcohol at WHO, we often start with the evidence. Today, we're starting with people's experiences.
Aleksandra Olsen works on communications about alcohol and health here at WHO Regional Office for Europe. At WHO, it is common that we will talk about units, thresholds and risk. Today, Aleks put all of the statistics aside and invited three women in for a conversation.
Mia, who is 34 and has stage 4 breast cancer. Hazel, a journalist, and in the past has experienced alcohol related liver disease. And Millie, who is the founder of Sober Girl Society, which is for sober and sober-curious women.
Millie puts it this way: there is a lot we could be doing about alcohol that we are not. Conversations we could be having.
This is one of them.
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Show notes/links
WHO Regional Office for Europe: https://www.who.int/europe
Alcohol use (from the WHO website): https://www.who.int/europe/news-room/fact-sheets/item/alcohol-use
No level of alcohol consumption is safe for our health: https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-alcohol-consumption-is-safe-for-our-health
Podcasts: https://www.who.int/europe/multimedia-pages/podcasts
When we talk about alcohol at WHO, we often start with the evidence. Today, we're starting with people's experiences. And a note before we begin, this episode contains personal accounts of cancer, liver disease, and mental health. My colleague, Alexandra Olson, works on communications about alcohol and health here at WHO Europe. Now, when we talk about alcohol at WHO, we talk about units and thresholds and risk. Today, Alex put all of the statistics aside and invited three women in for a conversation.
MiaMy name is Mia and I am 34. I'm from Copenhagen. I have uh stage four breast cancer.
HazelHello, I'm Hazel Martin. I'm a journalist and have in the past experienced having alcohol-related liver disease.
MillieHi, my name is Millie Gooch. I am the founder of Sober Girls Society, which is the world's largest community for sober and sober curious women. I am an alcohol harm campaigner and an ambassador for Alcohol Change UK.
DavidMillie put it this way: there is a lot we could be doing about alcohol that we are not. Conversations we could be having. This is one of them.
AleksAlright, so we'll be talking about alcohol, but um I think with this conversation, we're gonna try to step a bit outside of uh what uh we also usually do at WHO, which is look at stats and guidelines uh about alcohol. But instead we're going to talk about what we hear and see and experience, uh what's not said enough, uh what is talked about too much in the media, in everyday life, and what important conversations are not happening or could happen earlier than they do now. And I think maybe we can start with something simple and easy, a question for for each of you. Either one thing about alcohol that you wish more people knew and understood, or maybe if you want to share a recent conversation that you've had about alcohol that kind of stayed with with you.
MillieDo you want to go first, Millie? I can kick off, yeah. I think the one thing that I would want everyone to know about alcohol is that you don't need it. I think so many of us say like, I need a drink, or I'm really stressed, I need a drink. And I think like you may want it, but I don't think anyone actually needs it. You can have a lovely, happy, fulfilled life without alcohol. So I think that's the biggest thing for me is yeah, no one actually needs it.
AleksYeah, I think that's that's so interesting in language how we've actually been using need and at the same time say that is completely normal, right? And uh not a not a habit or or not a not a problem. Hazel, what about you?
HazelI think that something that as as somebody who has had experience with alcohol-related liver disease, alcohol-related harm, I think that I personally took on a lot of the shame of that. Like this has happened to me, this is my fault, have had I not, you know, been able to to stop or stop this happening to me, you know, that is it's all on me. And actually, or would like people to know, I guess for me, it's it's about learning that that isn't the case. You know, it's not a one person thing. It can feel a very lonely thing to have happened to you, but you know, it's it's not, and there are other people that um you know are going through the same thing or have gone through the same thing, so that that loneliness and that shame is something that I've learned to to not hold close to me in that respect. Does that make sense?
AleksYeah, no, absolutely. And I think I think it's it's relevant for alcohol-related harm, health harms, but it's also I think relevant for um the shame and and the guilt and the and the stigma that also um is is present in people whose friends or or relatives uh are experiencing uh some issues or or something with alcohol and stops them from reaching out for support as well. Mia, what about you?
MiaFor me, I have to say that uh alcohol can cause cancer. I want everybody to know uh to make informed decisions before drinking. I think alcohol is a very big part of at least Danish culture. And um I just want people to know the risks of drinking alcohol.
AleksI think that's super important for me. I think uh before I joined uh the team here at WHO that works on alcohol, I didn't know that alcohol causes cancer. So it was only through working through with the colleagues and even when they told me the first time, I don't think it really I don't think I fully understood it, I guess. Uh just like many do. I discarded it as everything causes cancer, probably alcohol as well. And it was only later that I learned not only about the the seven types of cancers linked to alcohol, but also that it it doesn't actually take such large amounts of alcohol consumption to increase the risk risk of cancer. Um it's also fairly recent that you found out that Mia, right? Is that part of the reason why you'd like people to to know about it as well?
MiaYeah, it is. I think I have breast cancer myself, so of course I want people to know because I don't know myself if I could have prevented getting cancer if I had not had alcohol. Um I've never been like a heavy drinker. I partied a lot when I was younger. Um but in the recent years I almost didn't drink alcohol only when going out partying every like second month or so. Um but I don't know to what extent alcohol could have played a role in me getting cancer, and I would just have loved to be informed of that earlier on, to have been able to make an informed decision before drinking, before going out partying. Um and I'm glad that I know now and I'm telling everybody because I want everybody to know. And it's not saying that you have to stop drinking, but just to be able to make that informed decision is so important.
AleksThese days there's still a lot missing from how we how we talk about uh alcohol. I think there are still a lot of a lot of gaps in what's being discussed. I think one one big one also is mental health. I wonder, Millie, if that's also something that you've been reflecting on and talking about uh a lot as well.
MillieYeah, a hundred percent. I think m you know my story with alcohol was largely based on my mental health and it was having a huge impact um when I was younger and drinking really heavily on my anxiety, depression, um, but also all sorts of like mental health conditions that we don't necessarily talk about. There's such a link between them. And you know, I've look done a lot of work with people over the years with everything from OCD to BPD, and when you look at how, you know, not only do people use alcohol to cope with mental health issues, but how it can exacerbate them in the process. And I just think a lot of the time we have concentrated on the physical effects of alcohol, and that's always been kind of the the default thing that we talk about when when we're looking at labelling and things like that, and actually I think we miss such a chunk out of the conversation because you know we can all say we drink for the taste and to have fun, but actually so many people are turning to alcohol because of stress, because of anxiety, because they can't sleep or they're trying to cope with something, and I think to leave that out of the conversation is just we're missing half of it. So I think it's so important that we, you know, start talking about that a lot more.
AleksAnd I think liver damage is also one of the things that's recently come out as something that people do know about alcohol, is that if you do drink heavily for a very, very long time, then liver cirrhosis is something that can happen to you. But that that is not only the case, and in fact, there's so much more nuance to it. Um, I think that's that's also something that that you've both researched and also experienced, um Hazel.
HazelYes, yes, no, definitely. So thinking back to when I was younger and drinking heavily at the weekends and things like that, I you always know that it can affect your liver, but it seems to be like it's in the back of your mind, and I think some of the phrases that come to mind are all you know, your liver replenishes or it's the most forgiving organ in the body, and all the rest of it, but that wasn't the case for me. And things are okay now because I I got to the stage where I just missed out on having any permanent damage, so I was really lucky in and in the sense that I was able to reverse the damage, but it's definitely not something that I expected, it was one of those things. I the the the phrase that springs to mind is I was shocked but not surprised, that's not quite what I mean. But when when what happened happened, and I was given the diagnosis that I was given, I thought, wow, this is you know, this is a total wake-up call. I've maybe been sleepwalking a little bit here. Looking back at now, I can see why this has happened. And yeah, I I I also um because I I'm a journalist and um I I ended up making a documentary about it because one thing that I noticed being in the media and and being uh looking, watching, reading, being you know, absorbed by news all day was that there are an increasing number of people um dying from alcohol alcohol-related liver disease um and hospital admissions and things like that. So it was something that I was aware of going on as a news story, and obviously can because of my own experiences looking specifically at women under the age of 40 and seeing that those numbers were increasing too, and I just thought, oh that's ah, there's something, there's something in that. And then what happened to me happened to me, and I thought there's there's more to this, so I ended up making a film about it.
AleksWhat has the response been to the film? Are people or are are some of the people who uh maybe you've you've gotten some reaction from, are they angry? Are they surprised? Are they shocked?
HazelNot one person. I mean I think I met most of you in this room because of because of that. I met Millie over over over Instagram on this after after um after our film went out. It was a panorama that we did for for the BBC. Um and and I mean the the I didn't get one I think I got you should never read the comments, should you? I think there were one or two I think there were one or two, you know, oh she's just you know absolutely caning it at the weekends and things like that. And I'm thinking, yeah, but I was clear about that, but so were you. So were you might have been too. The problem is, or the issue was that it's very normalized, right? But in terms of how it was perceived, I got so many overwhelmingly positive comments. You know, I had I had we had um consultants getting in touch to say that they'd been they'd been campaigning or not campaigning, but trying to raise money for fibre scans in their hospital and and the they weren't able to, or the the board, whichever trust it was, I can't remember, were were not being um they were just yeah, they're having having trouble getting them. Uh and they watched they watched that, saw the sense of urgency and got and now they have two, you know, people saying that that they they urged them to go to the doctor. My own GP who took part in it, which I was very, very grateful for, said that she'd seen they'd have an uptick of people booking in appointments and things like that. So so yeah, I think the the the the feedback was was overwhelming and and we did a lot of media on the day that it went out. Um and and yeah, I just it was it was a crazy day, but um and and I still get messages about it.
AleksIs that also your experience with online communities uh where you are active, uh Millie? Is there like gratitude for the information that that uh you are giving, that you're sharing your experience as well? Is there also some anger? You know, yes, I think we all agree, let's not read the comments, but just as as general reactions to um talking about alcohol?
MillieYeah, I I'd perhaps maybe see a lot more of the angry side of it because I think say with something like a documentary, you might watch it because you're interested in it. My you know, videos land on whoever's Instagram page, so you get like a lot of negative comments about you sharing that information. But you also, you know, for every horrible comment, you get 10 comments saying, I'm so glad I learned this, I'm so glad I like heard this. And I think I think the hardest thing is like when I'm sharing maybe the scariest stats and things like that, that tends to be the most pushback. But when I share about, you know, from a positive side of alcohol-free living or this is what I'm doing, you tend to get a lot more people I think resonating and being like, Oh, I'd love to be able to do that. And you're like, Well, you can, but I think that's been that's been my experience, but but there's so many things that I think people are shocked by, so many things that they have no idea, the alcohol cancelling being a huge one. Some people just have no idea. So I think it's really interesting, yeah, when you put that information out to see the mixed reactions. But yeah, you do get a lot of people who are really pushing back, they don't want to hear it, they don't want it anywhere near their Instagram feed. So that one is a really difficult one to contend with, I think.
AleksWhat about in general? Do you think conversations about alcohol are shifting a bit? Well, also with like sober curious communities and a bigger market for alcohol-free beverages as well.
MillieYeah, I think for sure. I mean, so I got sober eight years ago, and at that point, like when I told people I didn't drink, it was like I'd grown a second head. They were like, You don't drink? Why? Like, that's a crazy thing to do. And I think as time went on, it became a lot more like I would say, like six degrees of sober separation, as in like I'll speak to someone, they'll be like, Oh, my cousin doesn't drink, or my friend doesn't drink, like everyone kind of knows someone now who doesn't drink. So I think there's been this incredible, you know, sober curious movement, and I think like you said, alongside of that, there's been this kind of like uh gro huge growth in the no and low sector. So when I first stopped drinking, you could literally get like one dusty alcohol-free beer, and you had to like ask the barman if he could like go behind and look in the fridge, and and none of them tasted nice either. So I think there's been this, yeah, huge movement. I think I have been saying over the last year I am quite sceptical that we might be seeing a little bit of a swing back. I think you know, when something goes far in one direction, inevitably something brings it back in the other. I think because there has been this like real push for sober curiosity, you're now getting a little bit of a backlash in return. And I think unfortunately, you know, like a lot of the sober curious conversation has been swept up in this like self-optimisation conversation as well, which, you know, for me, not drinking is not a restriction, it's an absolute liberation. But I think some people see it tied in with like healthy living and gym culture and all those things. So now there's this like kind of pushback against that of you know, let's all start drinking again and we're all going back to analog culture and cigarettes back in instead of vaping. So yeah, I'm like one part of me is really like, oh my god, we're moving in such a good direction, and the other part of me is like, oh god, I think we're swinging back. So it's a real like mixed bag for me. Yeah.
AleksNo, I I understand that. And I think there are multiple reasons for that as well. Not not only maybe a natural swing of things as well, but also a lot of uh different forces pushing in in uh in in that direction as well. What about in um in in real life, in what are we seeing in different countries like um you're from Denmark, uh Mia, would you say there are any changes in how alcohol is perceived socially and also for you uh you said right that you don't drink anymore. Do you still have to make excuses or has that changed a bit as well?
MiaI I don't know if I would say I'm blessed to have cancer, but it is a blessing because you don't have people question you about not drinking. Um I will still sometimes rarely have a drink or two if going out, but most of the time I don't. Um and I think me not drinking has made my friends and family more curious about not drinking. Um so it's not unusual for me to go out with my girls and t dance the night away, and maybe they've been drinking a little bit before we go to the club. But at the club they might just stop drinking and get some water with me. Um and I think more and more people in general are figuring out that you don't have to drink alcohol. You don't need it. You can still do everything you can do uh drunk, you can do sober as well. Uh and you won't feel bad in the morning and you'll remember the entire night. So it's actually just a a lot of benefits. But it is also difficult, and that's something that we've been talking about, that it can also feel a bit lonely to not drink. For me, loneliness in that sense is not an issue, but I do find it challenging to go out the same way I did before, mainly because drunk people are kind of annoying. When you're sober, I'm sorry, but they are. Um so I make choices about what kind of outings I'm choosing and what I'm not choosing. So going to like a pub kind of setting where you just sit down and have a lot of beer and talk a lot, that's just not for me anymore. I can go there for like a drink or two, but then it gets annoying or boring for me because people just get drunk and it's just not the same anymore. Um so I found out that going to clubs and dancing is perfect because you don't have to communicate with the drunk people and you can just kind of like push them away if they get a little too close and everything is good. So I think it's also about trying it out in different circumstances and find out what works for you. Um and for me I found what what works for me, yeah.
AleksYou mentioned um Hazel that um around the time when when you decided to do the documentary that it started um appearing in the media as well. And I wanted to ask maybe all three of you actually about um some of the portrayal of alcohol in the media. And in particular, are there any narratives that you s often see in the media that you would retire about alcohol?
MillieI mean, there's so many I think I'd retire. I think it's really hard because you know, we live in an attention economy and these days a lot of headlines have to be sensationalist, you know, like news platforms, they've got advertisers that they need to get enough clicks for, etc. So I think you get a lot of headlines, you know. I saw the other one that the other week, like tequila's the secret to weight loss. You're like, is it though? I don't think it is. And so because you know that people are going to be sharing that to their friend on Facebook, they're tagging them. So I think there's so many that uh appear and the the the platforms don't feel the responsibility that they probably should feel. And I feel like there's no one necessarily regulating those headlines because some of the time as well you'll have the headline, you know, like I said, is the is Techillia the secret to wait last you go into the story, and it's it uh it basically says, no, it's not, but one doctor thinks blah, right. You're like, okay, so that's and I think a lot of people just see the headlines. So there's so many sort of like yeah, narratives I think just from initial, you know, headlines that I would retire. But I think there's there's so many continual narratives that we circulate. You know, alcohol is the default weight have fun, anyone who doesn't drink is boring. I think the latest one I've seen is, you know, a lot of journalists calling anyone under the age of twenty five that doesn't drink a snowflake. That seems to be the new one that's that one. That's a comment I get a lot as well. It's like, oh, these you know, millennial snowflakes. Or so I think, yeah, there's there's so many narratives, and every time it is like whack-a-mole, every time you sort of think you've conquered one, another one pops up. So yeah.
MiaI don't know how much of It's necessarily in the media, but for me in Denmark it's just alcohol is a huge part of the culture. If you are happy, if you uh at a wedding or something, you celebrate everything with alcohol. If you're sad, alcohol will make you feel better. If you're stressed, how about a beer? It's always alcohol that makes you feel better or yeah, is used to celebrate. And I just I don't think you need it. I think you can feel your emotions fine without it. Um and I think it's actually very h very healthy. Oh my god, in English. Very healthy to feel what you're feeling and not try to escape from your feelings whether they are happy feelings or sad or angry. I think it's very good to just feel it all. Yeah. And I don't see a problem with being a snowflake. Snowflakes are beautiful, therefore.
MillieYeah.
AleksYeah. I I I I I would like to join the snowflakes as well, I think. What about in in in healthcare conversations? Uh then. Maybe Hazel, you want to uh reflect a bit about uh conversations that you've had in healthcare settings or some that maybe you didn't have earlier with with both with general practitioners or with with specialists. Uh like w does alcohol come up? When should it, uh, in your opinion?
HazelI I was I always say that I think I was very lucky. I am not her healthcare professional. A lot of my family are, I am not. Um however, I I I think I was very lucky to discover what was going on because I was just tired. I was really tired, and and I actually I looked up my medical notes recently and I'd apparently I'd said I also had a pain on my side, and I don't remember that, but it's it's right there. And I was just back from maternity leave back to to working you know 10 hour days, so I thought, oh god, of course I'm tired, of course I'm tired. I've got a one-year-old and I'm back to work. So I just went to to my GP who was just on it. So um, you know, got got me blood, got blood tests, got my blood done, but I was really lucky because they check your liver function tests, and that's obviously how you how you obviously it's not obvious at all. Check your liver function tests, and then that's how you tell that there's something off, and it's just a snapshot. And the thing is you can have liver damage, but your LFTs can be normal. But it just so happened that mine were just a little bit off, and my my GP saw spotted it, and then it kind of went from there. She she phoned me, it was actually a then a different one phoned me with with my results, and she said, You're a long way from it now, but um if you don't stop drinking, you could be in big trouble because this is what I think might be going on. And then so from there I was sent for uh an ultrasound, but the ultrasound came back, and then my GP said, No, I'm not satisfied with that explanation for what was going on because it was very vague. And then it was not eventually it was eventually I was then given a fibre scan, and then that's when they found I had this this big old reading that that said suggested that I had liver fibrosis, which is reversible but still not good, obviously. So the care that I received in that healthcare setting was um amazing from my GP to my consultant, and that for me was a was was a really, really good experience. I think that my experience with previously, before any of this, just going for standard appointments and things like that, and then you're asked, you're asked, and do you drink, how many units, what would you say? Um I I I wouldn't lie that I have lied in that in that setting. I think a lot of people do, and I think it comes back to that that shame. I don't know that's not the fault of you know, you've got a 10-minute appointment, you've got to get through say why you're here and everything else, and it's standard. I just think it yeah, it comes back to that to that shame of I don't want I don't want anybody to know that I maybe drink for one, I don't know what is what a unit is, because I I didn't. Um and two, oh I don't want to indicate that I've got a problem. So the shame and the stigma. Um but you know, all of the above overall by kind of A to I was gonna say A to B, A to Z, whatever whatever you want to call it, was was really good and I'm very grateful. And and you know, I I don't know what would have happened otherwise.
AleksNo, but it's I mean it's it is it's just really good that that's that's how how uh it it happened for you. But I think the shame can also be double-sided actually, so there can also be a lot of hesitation from the side of the healthcare workers to ask about um alcohol because you're a bit afraid, you're hesitant to uh make your patients become uncomfortable, even though that won't necessarily be the case. I think that was uh very much um a conversation that I I had with a um a GP from Portugal. Um she said two things that uh first of all, alcohol is a very, very tiny part of medical curricula, so they don't necessarily cover things like cancer, so don't bring it up uh with uh with their patients. And um, second of all, in the limited amount of time, if they get a choice of what they ask about, they're more likely to ask about tobacco or diet than alcohol because of this um this stigma. And Mia, I wonder if it ever came up in your conversations with uh healthcare professionals?
MiaNo, never it did it it didn't come up at all. And that surprises me a bit as well. Um that it's not I don't know, part of like the standard package when you get a cancer diagnosis that maybe you should stop drinking. Um because I think at least at that point you should know uh I know my cancer will be back at some point in some stage four, and there's no reason for me to risk triggering it earlier. Um so I might as well just not drink or at least try not to. Um and I think I should be informed of that.
AleksDo you agree, Millie, also that uh it's it's a big role of healthcare professionals to to talk about this with uh with patients?
MillieYeah, I think so, and I think you know the main thing I talk about is mental health, and I sought help for my mental health when I was younger and no one asked me about my drinking, and at the weekend I was you know going out and heavily binge drinking. I think the only other question was like, Do you drink? And I was like 20, I was like, Yeah, of course I drink, and that was kind of the end of that, and it was you know, my drinking was very much seen as normal, even though I was going out and you know, getting very, very drunk and you know, not remembering my night and all of those things, but it was just you know, oh she's 20, that's what 20-year-olds do. Yeah, it's normal. So it wasn't ever really interrogated any further than that. And I mean, I feel like Hazel's doctors should have a a medal and a raise because that is not the experience I hear from so many people. Like that sounds like an incredible experience. I think if everyone's experience was like that, you know, we'd be in a much better position. But I don't think you know it's it's talked about enough, and not even just like doctors, but even you know, I've had tons of therapy over the years, and you know, therapists they don't necessarily have a specialism in alcohol either, so a lot of them don't really focus on it, don't talk about it, don't understand the intricacies of how it can be affecting your sleep and your mood and your anxiety and everything like that. So I think the education is not just doctors, but it's like across the board for everyone. So yeah, I think in especially mental health the capacity that I kind of mainly talk about, I think it's it's so frequently left out the conversation from peer to peer, from professional to peer and professional to professional. I think it's just yeah, across the board we need more understanding. And I think not being afraid to ask those questions. Like I know you know, a lot of health professionals are saying they feel uncomfortable asking those questions, but it maybe it's better to feel a bit uncomfortable and ask that question that could save someone's life. That's the the kind of perspective that I come from. And I think you know, we've talked a lot about today about things that we can do with that, and I think it's creating that safe space and it's all about how you ask the question, explaining why you're asking the question and the tone that you do it from and cultivating compassion. And I I think those things are so important and humanizing a bit more, but I don't think anyone should ever be scared to bring alcohol into the conversation. I know it's not a neutral topic, but it can be approached in a way that feels more like a compassionate conversation than any kind of attack or interrogation.
AleksPlus, also a doctor or or a nurse is is normally a person that you trust, right? With with your health. So coming from someone like that, uh this information is uh real care about your health and and not so much a provocation or uh something that uh that is meant to dig into to your habits in any way. Except for health settings, I think that was something that you talked about today, also is uh, you know, what are some of the other opportunities for raising awareness about uh alcohol harms? Is there a time when it's too early to start talking about alcohol? Where should these conversations be happening?
HazelYeah, I think just in in in everyday life, maybe, you know, I I like I said before, it was in the back of my mind that drinking wasn't good for you and you know it could hurt your liver and things like that, but that's the only really thing that that I knew, and it sounds silly to say that now given what I've experienced, but thinking, oh, it's fine because your liver just re replenishes and it's all good when it's not, and I just I look back on it now and I think, how did I know more about that? My entire family's medical, that is ridiculous. Um, but but drawing on as well from what Mia was saying about there being a big drinking culture in Denmark, and no doubt what Millie will think as well of the UK. I'm from Scotland, we are big, big drinkers in in similar ways. It's just part of part of the culture, and I don't mean to normalize it in that sense, but that's what I grew up knowing. So I think if I'd known, I think would it have changed would it have changed things? Because you know, you're young and you're you'll live forever and you know you think you're invincible and and everything, and I think would it have changed? But I mean I think knowing what I've learnt in the last 18 months is just incredible when it comes down to the facts and the risk factors. As a liver patient, as a journalist, we deal in the facts, and that's something that I have more of now.
AleksYeah.
MillieYeah. No, yeah, I don't think it's ever too early to start. I mean, prevention is so key. I think like, I don't know, say we're all sitting in this room and we see a fire over there. I don't think we'd be like, oh well, it's not that bad. We'll wait until it's like worse. We would be like, oh my god, there's a fire, let's do something about it. And I think with alcohol problems, we have this like arbitrary threshold of what counts as like that bad. And you know, we only a lot of us seek help when it is that bad, and by that point it's either maybe too late, like the damage on your liver might not be reversible, it might be a lot harder for you to come back and and change those things that you know alcohol has yeah, affected. So I think prevention is such a key thing, and I think especially from like our you know, our health services are overloaded. If we can get more people talking about this earlier, that's gonna really help us. I think again, coming from like a mental health perspective, there's almost a step before that as well as helping people with their mental health and not turning to alcohol for stress, not turning to alcohol for anxiety and things like that. And I think if we can help people with those sort of things and having more conversations about using alcohol as a coping mechanism, then you can prevent some of that kind of like harm that way as well. It doesn't necessarily always have to be about okay, what are we gonna do to help you stop drinking? It's like okay, what's the step before that? What are you struggling with in your life that is making you maybe turn to this as a coping mechanism? So, yeah, I'm huge on prevention and very anti this kind of culture that we have of let's just wait until it gets that bad and then we'll do something about it. It's like no, let's do something now.
AleksYeah, that's key. And I think um I have just one last question for for all of you. Um looking ahead, looking forward, being positive, optimistic as we can. If you could change one thing about alcohol in society, what would that be what to go?
MiaI think I would just I think I would normalize not drinking that much. I would love to have everyone be more knowledgeable about alcohol and the harms and the risks and also the benefits of not drinking. Um but what I want out of it is fewer people drinking and drinking less than they are now. Yeah.
AleksAnd I think just this freedom, right? To be able to say no without being questioned extra. Exactly. I think no is a full sentence, right? That's what we hear. Definitely.
MiaYou don't have to be pregnant or sick or anything else. You just have to say no, and that should be more than enough.
HazelI think just the the facts, knowing the facts, you know, you can't argue with the facts exactly.
MillieOh, yeah, I think I think it is that it's it's knowledge, facts. I think I think there's so much that we can be doing that we're not and conversations that we could be having that we're not, but like spaces and places like this are starting to have those conversations. I think it's important that we keep building on that momentum, and you know, like today we've talked about the importance of bringing people with lived experience into that conversation. I think that is really important. So I think yeah, that's the thing that I would like to change about alcohol is maybe bringing more experience into this and yeah, really looking at what okay, what can we actually be doing? There is so much that we can be doing we're not doing it. So that's what I would yeah, like just more action.
AleksThanks a lot. Thank you all uh for the thoughtful conversation. I um I really enjoyed it. Uh I think it's um it's great to have more conversations and more possibilities like these. So thank you so much for uh sharing your thoughts uh with me today. Thank you so much. It's been really nice. Thank you.
DavidMusic for this episode is from Frederick Sickhardt and Irvin Trofimov. Health in Europe's theme music is by Ben Kling. Health in Europe will be back. See you then.