Matt Haimovitz

When I organised my interview with cellist Matt Haimovitz, Primavera II the rabbits had just been released. Now there's also Primavera III the vessels to add to the original Primavera I  the wind.

This is all just part of the massive Primavera Project, which will eventually include 81 world premieres for solo cello. Our conversation covers the inspiration behind the compositions, the recording process and what's coming next for the project. There are some remarkable videos to watch, too.

Thanks to Matt for a fascinating conversation and for allowing me to use clips from Primavera II the rabbits alongside our conversation.

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Transcript

Hilary 0:25

Hello, I'm Hilary Robertson, and you're listening to the latest episode of Harmonious World. For this episode, I'm joined by cellist Matt Heimovitz. His latest album is Primavera 2 the Rabbits. It's the second of six albums in this incredible series, and it encompasses 81 world premiers for solo cello. But this is not just one solo cello. In this album, you've got overlays of four cellos at a time in places. All of these pieces are a response to Sandro Botticelli's enigmatic painting Primavera and the prophetic large-scale triptych Primavera 2020 by world-renowned contemporary artist Charlene von Hale. I'm really looking forward to chatting to Matt about this album, which is so creative and imaginative. I hope you enjoy listening. Hello, thank you for joining me on Harmonious World. It's great to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Good to talk to you. Yeah.

Hilary 1:33

Brilliant. Well, I'm really fascinated by this primavera project, but also by this album. It's mesmerizing this music. It's absolutely mesmerizing. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

I'm so glad you like it. Yeah, I feel that way too about it.

Hilary 1:49

Yeah. So there's so much to unpack here in terms of the art inspiration and the compositions and how it all came about and you know what order things happened in. So obviously, the original primavera was the first thing, which is sort of 500 years ago or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

You know, this whole project has unfolded very organically, and I could never have known that we'd be in the position and then, you know, in sort of the where we are right now with it. Um it really started with going to a lot of museums and galleries with my partner, Jeffrey Ann Young. And uh Jeffrey and I kind of walked into the room of the of where the Primavera hangs in Florence at the Ufizi. And we were mesmerized by this painting. And we, of course, we've we we'd heard about this painting and we knew we knew about it, but but seeing it in person was really there's some there was a glow to it, and um something about the moment, this is still pre-pandemic by a few months, but but somehow the the moment one could sort of sense that the world was headed in the wrong direction, you know, in in many, many ways, environmentally and and uh uh politically and all kinds of ways. So um we just started thinking about this painting and loved also the connections that there was so much sort of metaphysical, sort of, you know, the self-referential cycles within it, you know, in terms of Greek myths and and other symbols and um hundreds of species of flora depicted in in the painting, and and uh just the various messages and and symbols of the of the painting. So we started to really read up quite a bit on it, um, and kind of concurrently um by accident and serendipitously uh came on the work of Charlene von Hale at the Hirschhorn Gallery in Washington, DC. And again, Jeffrey Anna and I were both blown away by by her art. And um we reached out to the to her gallery, and within a few hours, actually, we heard from Charlene herself, and and Charlene and Charlene von Hale invited us to come and visit her Marfa studio, and and uh we could just spend some time together. And those hours that we spent with her were really just kind of emerging of we just were very much on a similar wavelength, you know, and and uh and she also was very intrigued by the Botticelli painting, and and uh she looked over at one of the paintings on her wall and she said, you know, I think I'm done with this painting. I think I'm gonna start yours now. And we hadn't directly asked her for a painting, but but uh a few months later she she had created Primavera 2020, uh a very different take on it, and and a painting that you know stands on its own without any reference, but it absolutely um, you know, you can kind of see the the form and and some of the what she's reacting to with the with the Botticelli. Of course, it's totally transformed, more prophetic for our own time, and and um just the between the two paintings, we thought it that it's a very rich starting point to to commission composers and engage these periods uh you know, 500 years apart, and and the various themes that that are depicted in the paintings. And and uh we didn't want to tell composers what to focus on. We wanted to give them an open, you know, that they could just whatever they were engaged with, they could they could go and and uh and compose and be inspired. And um the main theme with the composers is that they have to recommend more composers. So we started with nine composers, and those nine recommend another set of composers and so on. And I mean ultimately we you know, Jeffrey Ann and I are uh choosing the composers that are really that we we feel very close to in terms of the music, and and we're both of us, even though we come from very different backgrounds, are um kind of getting out of our comfort zones and and uh and exploring musical languages and styles that that uh I've I mean I personally have never encountered. And and so it's it's definitely moving in different different directions uh than I could have expected. And that's you know, here we are now, 40 composers into the 81 composers that we're commissioning, and and um and the painting is no longer in Marfa, Texas, it's now hanging in Venice at the at the Biennale. Yeah, uh and so so you know it's crossed an ocean and and I can't I couldn't tell you where this is all gonna end up, but but I mean we have some idea, and fortunately it seems like we are emerging from the the worst of the of the pandemic times and all the lockdowns and everything, and and sort of slowly coming out. And this it's just uh been a very, very beautiful and hopeful project to be a part of.

Hilary 7:32

Yeah. So the I the criteria the only two criteria were inspiration from one of those paintings or both of them, and for solo cello.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Right. Initially it was going to be cello and orchestra. We we wanted tone poems, but during the pandemic that was not practical because many orchestrists weren't able to really do much.

Hilary 7:55

No.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

So yeah, so we shifted to mostly solo cello. There are there are one or two that are multi- multicello, and I I've had to you know overlay the parts and recording and right, yeah. Um but uh yeah, but but but that's the criteria. I mean, the the one we're encouraging each composer to somehow bridge between the two paintings. That's that's ideal for us.

Hilary 8:20

And I think the musical styles they fill in completely all the gaps, don't they, between 14, whatever it was, and 2020. You know, they they really fill that space in terms of the musical styles, musical genres, and you know, there's there's everything in there. It's uh and that's and actually that's only listening to these first few. So I I haven't uh you know, I haven't listened to obviously all 81 yet. Have you recorded all 81?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

No, we've only commissioned about 40, so we have another 40 to go. So we're working on uh the next 10 actually this this week, even where we're we're uh commissioning some some more composers. Um there is such a broad range. I mean, from bluegrass to uh the you know, David Balakrishnan has uh Hendrix inspired piece to to um Nilufar Nurbaksh. Um, you know, it's very much turning the cello into an ood, kind of a Persian using Persian modes. Um Middle Eastern, yeah, we've we've we've got um African-based you know, dance rhythms. We've got, I mean, it's just it's just runs the gamut to very hardcore, you know, um thorny, abstract, um, you know, uh atonal. I mean, just it's it's just you know, everything you can you can imagine, neo-romantic, of course, Philip Glass, uh, you know, people might be surprised, it's less minimalist than you would expect. It's more more neoromantic and and songful. And um, so yeah, it's a whole whole range of of languages and reactions, and and uh I'll just you know I'm I'm going wherever they send me with the instrument. I mean, I have to use sticky tack, I have to uh I use a variety of mutes, I I pluck, I I bow, I I create all kinds of different sounds, I emulate electric guitar or flute or um or the voice.

Hilary 10:36

Yes, and yet at the heart of it there is this beautiful cello. You know, it's not, I don't want to give my audience the idea that this is strange, you know, it's not. There are elements that are a bit uh they they make you sit up and and listen, but at the heart of it is this beautiful sonorous cello throughout all of the pieces that I've heard.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, I I now after years and years of playing new music and working with composers, I love it because I I get immediate feedback from the composers and I love shaping the music and really working with them. And and I started early with Gheorghe Ligeti, one of the group, you know, the giants of the 20th century. That was I was very fortunate. That was my first experience with a living composer. And after that, I thought, oh my god, I I need to have these conversations. I can't have that conversation with Bach and with Beethoven or Josh Candépre. And and I so I need to be able to do that. So I sought it out. But what I faced, particularly in the classical music world, is that um people are afraid of these new languages and they're afraid of the abstraction. And in fact, the art world I always find to me in my mind is sort of 50 years or so ahead of the music world. Because people trust their eyes more than their ears for some reason. They're they're they they can process, there's a narrative, there's a there's something we somehow translate what we see in a very different way than than what we hear. And uh, or at least most of us do. And and um so I think that's really what has been so beautiful about this project is that yes, it's new music, nobody's heard it before. Um, some you'll recognize you know, a variety of styles and and you'll have sort of a frame of reference for the music, so others not. But there's always they all come back to these paintings. And so there's there's always something that grounds what we're doing, and that that it's been really exciting to see the responses, um, especially now, you know, from the the Biennale, where you have more of an art crowd, you know, seeing seeing the painting and hearing starting to hear the music for the first time. You know, they're it it's it's it's really interesting, you know, they're open to it, they're open to to the music, and we're getting a good reaction, you know, and it's that is sort of the the goal. I I would say the overall goal of this whole project is is for people to um to get over the intimidation factor and the and the hesitation of like experiencing something new and and just you know being able to process and to feel inspired by by all of this.

Hilary 13:39

Yeah, and my when I was listening to the music, I kept jumping between the photographs because that that did really help sort of, and I don't mean explain it, but but you could you could hear running through the the music elements from the paintings exactly, and I think I think that's the ideal way to experience it, but I also think that every single element of this project stands on its own, including Charlene's painting.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

You don't really need the Botticelli to appreciate what Charlene has done. It's a masterpiece. And and uh yet if you have the Botticelli and you're looking at the Botticelli and you look at the Charlene von Hill, then you know you understand where she's coming from and and how the you know the idea that nothing comes out of thin air, you know, the idea that there's there there's always a connection, there's always a precursor. And and you know, in our own lives, that's what we you know we do. And and unfortunately, for the you know, you you see how easy it is to for try to forget history or try to, you know, you you think that you live in a in a time that is you know that the present is immune from the past, but it's not. You know, we're we're always we're always part of these cycles. And you know, nature it reminds us of that with every every new season, you know, and that's that's that's the for for us it's a very, very important theme that that that runs through this um this whole this whole thing and and and just the idea that we're tied to the past and that the past and the present really um they help us shape where we're going.

Hilary 15:36

Yeah, absolutely. And uh, I mean I love the uh the fact that you've got a a a snatch, a snippet of the uh of the modern painting as your album cover. And even even in that reduced form, there is still so much of the depth and the intricacy of it and the um, you know, the fact that you kind of every time I look at, well, every time I look at both paintings, but especially um the new one that you'll you see something different, you go, oh, I hadn't noticed those bits or whatever, you know, the links and uh, you know, it it's amazing, it's really good, lovely.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Well, it's it's also the way we experience art. I mean, we it everybody will sort of be drawn to different things. You know, you might start at the top right of the painting and work your way to the left, and and the you know, or or the other way around, or up or down, or you might be you might gravitate right away to there's in Charlene Van Hale's uh painting, there's a really beautiful stencil blue flower, but you might not notice it on first glance because the painting is so immense and the scale of it is so big, and and then you you sort of gravitate to that flower, and you could just spend quite a bit of time just studying studying that, or or looking you know at the at the rabbits, you know, um, which we highlighted for the second second album. The third album is coming up very soon, it's it's the vessel. So that that, of course, the kind of Greek um reference of the vessel and and all this symbolic aspect of that. But yeah, absolutely, you know, the details are are really interesting to focus on.

Hilary 17:23

And am I right in in thinking that you actually recorded this album, these tracks, at Charlene von Hel's studio?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

We have recorded every track so far at Charlene's studio.

Hilary 17:36

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, it's it's uh the way you described the sound of the cello and this sort of world or universe of sound. Um my cello from Venice, uh from 1710, made by Matteo Gofriller, one of the great, one of the great makers of of instruments, particularly cellos, known for the depth of their sound for the for the especially the lower range. I would say that uh Charlene Studio is an extension of my instrument. It's I'm playing another instrument, and and so the resonance of Charlene Space is absolutely part of this sound. And uh it was quite a technological feat what we did because we had uh an amazing producer, David Frost, multi-grammy nominated, or winning, winning, actually. I think he might have more wins than just about anybody on the planet. You know, he was in New York City, and we were we were sending the the engineer, uh, sound engineer was sending high def sound to New York from Marfa, Texas. And David Frost was producing this, you know, producing my my performances over there in Marfa. So it was it was quite um, I mean, I think we just have reached that level of technology. So we were very fortunate. So with all the lockdowns and everything, which it just kicked in to this to this way of recording. And even the Josquin arrangements, so that what begins the um The Rabbits, uh Primavera 2, the Rabbits, um, it's a four-part Josquin piece that actually relates directly to a piece that's on the previous album by Lisa Bialawa called Misa Primavera. And she Lisa was fascinated by Josquin's music and and this particular um mass of his, and it's a four-part, and she she fantasy sort of it's a fantasy on that four-part. So the second album begins with the actual music from 500 years ago.

Hilary 19:51

Right. And so your cello was made in Venice, and now the Charlene von Hale paint painting is in the Biennale with your music playing, so it's all electronic, but on an instrument that was made there. That's that's I know yeah. That's a bit cosmic, isn't it? That's a bit amazing.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

It is, it really is. I mean, and and yeah, that wood. Yeah, you know, all those hundreds of years and it survived, and this, you know, who would have connected Marfa, Texas, and Venice, Italy? I I you know, I just you can't make this up.

Hilary 20:34

No, exactly. And and and my guess is that the the sonic vibrations which make the recording so right in the in the artist studio are probably the ones that make it so right to listen to in the Biennale. So, you know, it's amazing, isn't it? All of these things that are helping to create this uh, I don't know, the whole event.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

And if you are going to Venice uh before November, because the painting will be on on display until November, the the whole and it's pretty spectacular, not just our painting and and Charlene's work, but uh I mean it's a it's a pretty spectacular Biennale, so I encourage people to go see it. But when you go and you are in front of the Primavera 2020, um the music is not just playing. You have to actually there's a QR code, and you you do have to take your phone and and uh go to the go to the link for the QR code, and then you get the music on whatever platform you listen to, whether it's Apple Music or Spotify or whatever it is. So um yeah, so there's a there's a little bit of a interactive aspect of it. But yeah, I play I I hope people have a chance. I mean, Venice on its own is just extraordinary. It's magical and uh and then this this Biennale, you know, 90%. of the artists this year are women and it it is really um i'm gonna i'm gonna take my my daughters uh later in august to to go we're gonna go back we were we were there we were privileged to to be invited to the pre-opening and uh and just experience the the whole hoopla of the the of the biennale but also to spend time spend several days we we were there for I think three or four days we we went back and and just there's so much art so inspiring and it just takes a while to absorb but yeah I encourage I encourage people to go check it out. Yeah great um how when do you think this project is going to be in inverted commas finished I this feels like a lifelong uh it does yeah experience yeah uh I think we're gonna my you know our aim right now Jeffrey and I are talking about it uh we hope to have um over the next year the pieces commission so we we hope to have the 81 pieces we have no idea where the painting is going next from uh from the Biennala in November we'll see Charlene Van Hale has been incredibly generous and inclusive with us and it's really a very collaborative project so we'll see um I I think all of our dreams actually is to to at some point experience the two paintings in the same room. Oh yeah but I don't know I don't know when and how that will happen so we'll see but I have a feeling that something chemical will happen when these two paintings come come together. And um and we're talking about you know now that we're going back into the concert hall and theater you know to some kind of theatrical uh presentation of this that bridges the two paintings and so we're we're thinking hard about how what that might look like. It's difficult because um Charlene Van Hel is a painter and I am a cellist I play acoustic you know and I I mean I I'll I'll go and you know I've done some some things where I've amplified of course and and um played in rock bands and done all kinds of stuff but um but that's my my great love is to play my cello in a beautiful sounding space and whether it's one person or 3,000 people in the hall you know um have them experience the sound the visceral sound three-dimensional quality of it and that's that's what I love and and I think Charlene Van Hale feels the same way about her art. You know she's not she's not an animator she's not a a movie maker she's she paints and and it's um you know we're old school in that in that way and yet I you know we live in the in the 21st century and and you know we we so you know we're thinking about how how to sort of use our technology to you know to benefit and to sort of amplify perhaps what we are doing and and so we're thinking about it and that's that's where I I couldn't tell you where it's gonna go but um but I think there's some some good things to look forward to with this project.

Hilary 25:27

Fantastic. Okay well thank you so much for joining me it was really interesting and I'm looking forward to I'm gonna have to go and get the first album so that I can can chart it all the way through because it's just fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

And I want to be able to I don't know what your timing is but the the brand new album number three is coming out on June 24th. Ah so and that's gonna have the two Philip glass you know world premieres.

Hilary 25:57

Okay. Um Samsara and Philip song he gave us two pieces and it's got it's got some pretty amazing uh there's a there's a piece by Annabelle Twaste that I'm very excited about she's Toronto composer and comes from the bluegrass folk scene and okay um so it's a it's a very beautiful piece and and um liala checker and some uh it was a Lebanese composer there's just some really beautiful music on that coming okay well it sounds as if I need to um I need to bring it all into perhaps to be talking about all three of the those first three albums yeah you'll be the first to do that that would be amazing that would be incredible thank you thank you thanks as you heard between organising the interview with Matt actually conducting the interview itself now editing it and releasing it he's got another album out so I was originally talking to him about Primavera 2 The Rabbit and now Primavera 3 which is the Vessels is also out now. So this is another chunk of these wonderful solo cello pieces. At the start of this podcast you were listening to Spring Figures and now this is Volplaning in the show notes you can find links to Matt's website and all the social media and do follow the links through and see the paintings and there are also some videos if you happen to get to Venice to the Biennale then I'm very jealous but there will be news coming soon of the next recordings as they are released. I hope this finds you well please do rate review my podcast it really helps people find it all the links are in the show notes please do share what you're good at to make this world a little more harmonious.