Discovering more about the score of ‘Frankenstein’ with Sara Karloff

Welcome to the latest episode of Harmonious World, where I interview musicians about how their music helps make the world more harmonious.

This episode is unusual, in that Sara Karloff is not a musician. She is the only daughter of Boris Karloff, star of many films but famously the 1931 adaptation of Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein.

Sara will join composer Michael Shapiro in London on 25 October as his original score is performed in London together with a screening of Frankenstein: commissioned in 2001, it has been presented in over 75 sold-out productions worldwide. I travelled to Milan in November 2021 and the experience of hearing Michael’s music while watching such a genre-defining and ground-breaking film from nearly a century ago was extraordinary.

I chatted with Michael in October 2020, April 2021 and October 2024.

The music I’m playing alongside my conversation with Sara Karloff is from Michael Shapiro’s In the Light of the Sun, performed by members of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and Stathis Karapanos (flute). I was fortunate in being in the studio when this was recorded.

Enjoy Frankenstein and Michael Shapiro’s score, performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra at Cadogan Hall.

Thank you for listening to Harmonious World. Please rate, review and share: click on the link and subscribe to support the show.

Don't forget the Quincy Jones quote that sums up why I do this: "Imagine what a harmonious world it would be if every single person, both young and old, shared a little of what he is good at doing."

Transcript

Hilary 0:32

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Harmonious World. My name is Hilary Seabrook. Harmonious World is all about interviewing musicians, but this episode is slightly different. Because I am delighted that I was joined by Sarah Karloff, who is actor Boris Karloff's only daughter. The reason I'm interviewing her is because friend of the show Michael Shapiro composed in the early 2000s a brand new original score to accompany live screenings of Frankenstein in which Boris Karloff starred as the monster. With Michael conducting his own music. It's going to be an absolutely phenomenal experience. And there's a link in the show notes for you to buy tickets. What you're listening to right now is also members of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra playing Michael Shapiro's In the Light of the Sun with flautist Statis Kerapanos. And I was like lucky enough to be in the studio when this was being recorded. Anyway, it's just a hint of both the RPO and Michael's compositions. So I hope you enjoy listening to my conversation with Sarah Karloff. Thank you so much for joining me. So my podcast is called Harmonious World, and it's about people's experiences of how they're making the world a better place and what their experiences are with music and all of that. So I am absolutely delighted to be talking to you. So thank you, Sarah Karloff, for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Well, thank you. It's my pleasure. I'm delighted to speak with you.

Hilary 2:39

Great stuff. So the reason that we're talking is because our mutual friend Michael Shapiro has written the score for the Frankenstein to accompany the screening of the film.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yes.

Hilary 2:55

Now, have you seen the film with his score?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yes, one time I have, only once, and I'm so anxious to see it again.

Hilary 3:05

Well, me too. I saw it once in Milan. I traveled to Milan because it was the closest I could get. But of course. Well, he I'd spoken to him for the podcast, and I just was so enthused by what he had done in helping to sort of keep the film sort of present, bring it into a new life in the 21st century. Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Indeed. That's exactly what he's done.

Hilary 3:41

Yeah. So um obviously you are, for I say obviously, for my listeners, you are the daughter of Boris Karloff.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yes, I am.

Hilary 3:54

Now, one of the things that fascinates me is of course he wasn't born Boris Carloff. He has he acquired that name when he went to um uh to America.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yes. So a little earlier than that. He acquired it in British Columbia.

Hilary 4:12

Oh, did he? Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yes, uh-huh, when he was doing repertory theatre in British Columbia.

Hilary 4:17

Right, because he was a very, I mean, an incredibly famous English actor. Yes. And uh Frankenstein uh is his finest, or I think his most famous role. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Actually, it was his 81st film, and nobody had seen the first 80, he always said. He'd been in the business 20 years when he got his break. He'd been a repertory theater for 10 years in British Columbia doing four or five plays a week, and sometimes getting paid and sometimes not. And then he was uh he came down to America and uh down to Hollywood and um finally to do plays really, and he hadn't thought about doing films, and eventually he auditioned for some films, and he um made film after film, silent films, of course, first. And uh, as I said, uh Frankenstein was his 81st film, and so he'd been around quite a while in the business before anybody knew who he was. Yes, but that was made a pivotal difference in his life, both person both personally and professionally.

Hilary 5:41

Yes, and uh you are his only child, isn't that right? I am so although he was married four times, yes, four or five, we've lost count. So obviously, one of the reasons for talking to you is now because in October we are going to be seeing Frankenstein at the Kadaghan Hall with Michael Shapiro's score performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. And you're going to be there.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

I certainly am going to try to be there. Yes, I had made a former commitment and I'm trying to um work my way around the first couple of days of that commitment so I can be at Michael's performance.

Hilary 6:25

Yeah, and I mean it I know it's not easy traveling at um at a at a more advanced age.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

No, I don't mind traveling. I love to travel.

Hilary 6:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Um and uh I was coming to England anyway. Oh um to England and to Ireland. I have a I have a college friend who lives in Northern Ireland, and so I was going to visit with her and then come down to to London where I have some friends, and then uh this popped up and the dates coincide just very comfortably. So I'm thrilled to be able to to uh uh appear at Michael's uh performance.

Hilary 7:06

That's fantastic, and I'm sure everybody would be absolutely delighted if you can make it. That's such a brilliant thing. And I know Michael is really excited at the prospect of you being there.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Well, I'm going to do everything I possibly can. I think that the odds are 90 to 1 that I'll be there.

Hilary 7:26

Good. Well, that's we'll take that for now. So um, did was your father aware of the huge success of the film?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Oh, yes, he was aware of how successful it was because of the difference it made in his life. But he was a very modest man, and he didn't lead a star's life at all. He was very modest, very, well, he was humble and uh grateful, exceedingly grateful for the position that film made uh in his the that the position that film made put him in in the business. And he um was a member, he was a founding member of the Screen Actors Guild. His card was number nine. And that work with SAG was extremely important to him because he had certainly paid his dues as an up-and-coming actor, and he believed uh that it was so important that uh up-and-coming actors have a vehicle by which they could voice their their needs and their their um their situations. And and he was um he was um uh retained his membership. He has a he got a life gold card from SAG uh eventually. He was a on the board of directors well into the 40s, and and um he he just put his heart and soul into uh his work with the Screen Actors Guild. He told me when they were, well, my mother told me actually, that when SAG was being formed, it was very dangerous for these actors to be have anything to do with it because it was the formation of a um uh of a union opposing the the um producers and directors and the owners of the of the uh um of the businesses and and studios. And so um they my mother said they would go to these parties and dance by one another and whisper meeting Tuesday night at so-and-so's house and dance on by. Wow they parked their cars blocks away from one another's house and walk to a meeting. It was really very, very, they were very brave and very dedicated to uh the formation of of SAG because they were putting their they were putting their careers on the line. They were running the risk of being blackballed and never working again.

Hilary 10:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

So my father was dedicated to his work with this Queen Actors Guild.

Hilary 10:13

And I'm sure that that played its role in you know ensuring that actors could have a decent life. Because the part of the problem with being an actor, I know, is that you earn a huge amount of money for a brief period of time, um, but then you might not work for you know several months or um or a year or two.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you never know when the next role is coming along, and you don't necessarily earn a huge amount of money. My father was paid five hundred dollars for doing Frankenstein. Well, you can see when you consider the difference that Frankenstein made to the studio, which was in financial downward fall at the moment that they made that film, and what that film did for that studio. And my father was paid five hundred dollars. Wow. So that's not even back then, that was not a huge amount of money. My father lost 25 pounds during the making of the film, and he was already a starving actor. Um it it was they would it took four and a half, four hours to put the makeup on, and took three and a half hours to take the makeup off. That's already a normal working day, and then he would work for another nine hours. So it was a 19-hour work day for him, and um under very, very difficult circumstances, uh the the wardrobe weighed, I think, um, oh, in excess of 50 pounds. And um he he was um he was a skinny, skinny actor uh when he took on the role. He was an extremely skinny actor when he finished the role. Um, but of course it had to be okay because it made him a star instead of uh an extra or a um uh you know uh he was working just about full time by that time, but he was no star, and that rule made a pivotal difference in his life.

Hilary 12:40

I think that your father is responsible for one of the big mistakes that people make in life, which is that they call Frankenstein the monster, but he's actually he has no name, he is called, he is the monster, and Frankenstein is the doctor of the greatest.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Whatever, yes.

Hilary 13:00

Yes, and I think your father's portrayal of him. I mean, it it's an incredible book, obviously, by Mary Shelley, but your father's portrayal of the creature was uh sort of really brought out the humanity of this creation.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Um my father said that kids got it, they understood that the creature was the um victim and not the perpetrator. And um if you really look at the role, he was indeed the victim. He he was he reacted. He was not not the one that generated the violence in the film, what violence it was. He was he was reacting to the violence uh directed at him. Um kids, uh the little girl Maria in the film loved my father and wanted to to ride with him in the car and held his hand and was not afraid of him at all. My father's, I think one of the secrets of his portrayal was that my father's um uh genuine kindness as a human being and genuine uh gentleness as a human being came through his portrayal of this uh uh iconic role. And um it he could portray it and do violence reactively, but not proactively, and his own gentleness of spirit came through. Um and I think that's what made it such uh a um such a an enduring role in an enduring film. It wasn't just a violent film.

Hilary 15:02

No, no, absolutely not. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

You felt sorry for the creature.

Hilary 15:09

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's what Mary Shelley was showing, that you know, the the the the mastermind, the you know, Frankenstein himself was the the villain in a way.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Well he was certainly um he certainly was more he he was the creator of the violence. Yes. I don't know if you've seen um Giero del Toro's Frankenstein. It certainly put it certainly follows Mary Shelley's story much more accurately, and it's a beautiful film, and uh the father-son um relationship comes through uh as does the creator and the creature comes through, and you get more of the um the fact that the creature is um reacting, not at not actively violent, but is reacting to violence in Guillermo's film.

Hilary 16:19

Yes, indeed. So you've seen the film with Michael Shapiro's uh soundtrack. What did you think of of Michael's music?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Oh, it's beautiful, it's beautiful, and it it adds so much to the film um that I mean the film stands on its own legs. Michael's music stands on its own legs, put the two of them together and it's uh just beautiful. It really is, absolutely beautiful. It's a wonderful experience to um watch that film with Michael's music.

Hilary 17:00

Yes, and uh was Michael conducting when you saw it?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Uh yes.

Hilary 17:07

Yes, because that was the same with my with my experience. And actually that was really special because it's always there's always something uh very precious about seeing a composer at the podium, at the conductor's podium, conducting the orchestra. And I think it's especially Michael seems to have a real connection with this music in particular and with the film, and I think watching him conduct it is very uh moving.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Well it's their baby. Yeah, yeah, their baby, and it's it's of course it adds a special specialty to uh yeah. There's an adoration of the creation, yes, and a closeness and um and an understanding of the music and its connection to what um to how it fits with the film.

Hilary 18:03

Yes. What has your life been like? So you're you've always lived in America, is that right? Even though your father was British.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yes, I've always lived in America, um in mainly in California, which is waning. Um but um uh I love Great Britain, I love London, I love the I I love the fact that I'm half British, but um I am Amer I am an American citizen.

Hilary 18:35

Yeah, yes. And of course, your father died in in the UK, didn't he? He came back to Surrey.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yes, he died in the UK. He didn't go home to die, he went home after he had finished work, uh a particular job here in the U in the United States, and he went home between jobs, and unfortunately he fell ill and didn't recover from it. He died of emphysema.

Hilary 19:05

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, yes. But what an amazing life he had, and what an amazing legacy he's left.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Oh, he's left it absolutely an amazing legacy. His fans are incredible. They are um, they know far more about his career than I could ever learn. And I learn something every time I speak anywhere, anytime I do uh uh attend a convention anywhere, I learn something from the fans. They are so thoughtful, they are so kind, they are they, you know, I'm nothing but a conduit for people who wish they'd had an opportunity to meet my father. And they have interesting stories to share with me about uh when perhaps they did meet my father, but that would make them very old. Um uh questions they wish they had had a chance to ask my father, stories that their parents or grandparents told them about their experience or their following of my father. Um it's just so worthwhile, and it's so um uh I appreciate it so much. And um I'm doing a show uh the latter part of April in New Jersey, a show I do every year, but usually in October. And I really look forward to doing these these conventions because uh because of the fans. It's the fans that have uh given my father's legacy such long legs, and um, and because of my father himself, he was so modest and so giving and so good with his fans that that um that history is carried forward, and then the fans have picked up on it, and everything uh everything they have read about him um has been positive. He's one of the few people in the business about whom nothing negative has ever been written or said, and so um the the fans are courteous, curious, uh polite, um uh wonderful and wonderful to me and uh generous in sharing family stories. And uh they're they're wonderful. And it's because of them that his legacy has the long legs that that it has.

Hilary 21:58

Yeah, and of course now this This music by Michael Shapiro is is helping to perhaps bring it to a new generation who hadn't seen it.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Indeed. Indeed. It's read it's regenerating an interest in the film. And Michael's music adds so much to that interest and so much to the whole experience. And it's exposing the film through Michael's music to audiences that may not have seen the film, may not ever have desired to go see the film. They are going because of Michael's music. And uh it's opening it up to um whole new generations of people. Whole new audiences.

Hilary 22:50

Yes, it's a wonderful thing. Oh, it's such a pleasure to talk to you, Sarah. Thank you so much. And I hope really hope I get to meet you in person in October.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Oh, I hope so too. I will I will be there. I'm I'm convinced I'm going to be there, so I will be there.

Hilary 23:08

Excellent. Well, so will I, so I shall definitely see you there then.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Well, I look forward to meeting you. Thank you so much for this talk. It's been much much fun and very delightful. I've learned. Again, I've learned, see.

Hilary 23:47

About her father, about Michael Shapiro's music. What you're listening to now is in the light of the sun, the third movement with this fantastic flute. It's a flute concerto, but it's just such a beautiful piece of music, and the musicians of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra did such a great job on this, and I'm sure we'll do so again in October for the screening of Frankenstein with Michael Shapiro conducting his own score. So thank you for joining me once more for Harmonious World, and I hope you have a very, very good week.