Hot Seat Model: The Enemy (Susan)

 In this episode from the Village Church’s sermon podcast, Pastor Susan Cepin continues our teaching series on the Hot Seat Model. This model—crafted by her husband, Pastor Eric Cepin—is designed to help people slow down, pay attention to their emotional reactions, and begin tracing them back to the false beliefs shaping their lives. It also creates space to hear the voice of the Gospel, especially where it stands in sharp contrast to the Enemy’s heavy-handed lies. Pastor Susan walks us through what it looks like to sit across from the Enemy, recognize his tactics, and stand our ground in the truth of Christ. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05: 0:13

Hello, my name is Eric Sidney, and I am one of the pastors at the Village Church. The following podcast is a ministry of the village church. We hope that it inspires you, that it draws you closer to Jesus, and it opens your eyes to the possibilities of living in the kingdom. Enjoy. And God bless.

SPEAKER_09: 0:33

We're here. I'm so excited. Let's pray. Father, thank you so much for bringing us here today. Thank you that you have gathered this little church in Tucson. And thank you for the beauty that you unfold in our midst all the time. And I just I pray that as we uh learn this morning, as we listen, as we consider what you've taught us over the years, and that we practice together, that you would help us to take it up, to really take hold of it, to understand it, to lean in and practice it and find ourselves standing together in the gospel, supporting each other in the gospel, learning what it looks like in our daily lives to really take on the gospel and live in it, because that's really where freedom is found. We trust you, and we just come to hear your voice in Jesus' name. Amen. All right, so as Eric mentioned, we are on this, we're in this sermon series on the hot seat model, which sometimes we also call the table of decision. And what I really love about this, this is something Eric developed about 20 years ago, and we had as a community have continued to develop it. And it helps me to step into the gospel. It helps me to see the chaos of my daily life and my experiences in my own body and in my own relationships, and understand what it would look like to take a step into the gospel and put it on and walk in it. And so it's very practical, and I'm really grateful that it exists and we get to walk in it together. So, as we've been talking about this, there's something called the hot seat guidelines that have come up a couple of times in the conversation. And Eric and I thought this would be a good time to just put them in. Sometimes these are called the hot seat rules of thumb, and they're in some of the pilgrim group studies that we've published. And the point of these is that, and the point of the hot seat really is that we believe that if we listen to each other and we listen to Jesus, healing happens. And so the hot seat guidelines all have to do with becoming better listeners. So things that we try to practice when we are in this process with each other include open-ended questions. So my point is to ask you a question that will get you talking about something, and then I will listen to you. So open-ended questions help that happen. Reflective listening is helpful as well. These are statements that kind of summarize what the person just said. So I would say, it sounds like, and then I summarize what they just said. Or what I hear you saying is, and then I summarize what they just said. The beauty of that is the other person can then say, Yep, yeah, you really heard me. Or they can say, Well, it's not quite that, and then they can correct it, and then I can really hear what I was missing before. So in the line of open-ended questions, we also have questions about emotions. How did you feel when such and such happened? Or questions about underlying beliefs. What belief is this rooted in? So, how questions and what questions tend to be open-ended and they help us to hear more. Now, things that we want to avoid are not listening. So, that includes often why questions. Often, when we ask somebody a why question, uh it has the tendency to shut down a conversation. Sometimes why questions can sound really judgy, like, why did you do that? Which then doesn't make the person want to talk about it. They probably don't know why they did it, which is why we're doing the hot seat process. Right? We don't always know why we did what we did. We might know it wasn't a great idea or it didn't have the outcome we wanted, but why questions typically don't help. Every once in a while, a why question to clarify something can be good. Like, why were you in that part of town at that time of day? Uh it's they're not evil questions, it's just, you know, not always helpful. Same with yes or no questions. Um questions where the only possible answer is yes or no tend to shut down the conversation. You're not listening anymore because there's the answer was so short. So we're looking for something that is that opens the conversation. Other things to avoid include stories about yourself, because then you're not listening anymore. And you know, in regular conversation, it is totally normal over lunch to share stories, and someone tells a story, and then somebody else tells a story, and that's normal in conversation. That's also not a bad thing. Although I would say sometimes we miss opportunities to listen to the deeper narrative if we jump in with our story. So maybe even in other spaces it's helpful to think, okay, I have a story that I'd like to tell, but maybe there's something more I could listen to in this other person's story. Also, advice giving or teaching during the hot seat process means I'm not listening anymore because now I'm the one talking. Same with answering for the other person. If I think I know what the answer is, then I'm talking about what I think instead of listening to them. And we really trust that as we listen to each other, the Holy Spirit is also guiding the person. Their own sense of things, their own understanding of their own history is going to be answering the question. Their longing to seek the gospel is going to get them where they need to go as we listen. So those are the hot seat guidelines, and thanks. Okay, that brings us to the hot seat model, and we're just going to do a quick overview. I'm going to include a hot seat of my own that came up recently just as an example along the way. And both the hot seat model as we teach it right now and my own hot seat story are going to be simplified because we're not trying to get into all the complexities of these things, they're just examples. We're trying to present this in a way where we can all pick it up and walk to the next step with it and not necessarily unpack everything about it. So we start with a problematic event. My problematic event was a really kind text message I got from a family member inviting me to do something. And it was legitimately just super sweet. Now I immediately had negative emotions that included feeling trapped and obligated, which I know those aren't primary emotions. I always start at not a primary emotion and have to work my way back. Fear and surprise. I wasn't expecting this invitation, I wasn't expecting the text that day, and I'm afraid that if I can't do what they're asking, there are going to be negative consequences. So fear and surprise, not based on the event itself, right? But based on my own false beliefs that existed before. Because I have a false belief about myself that I have to come through for people. I have a false belief about others that they're going to ask things of me that I can't give them. And I have a false belief about God that He just left the room. So that brings me to my table of decision. And what happens in this model is in this slide, we have an arrow going from false beliefs to the side of the enemy, the side of the table where the enemy is sitting. So Jesus is at this table as well. The reason for this is that we often bypass our awareness that we have a choice in this moment. We often bypass our awareness that we're sitting at a table with Jesus. And we move right on to hearing the strong, repetitive voice of the enemy, who, as Mark said last week, is calling us into the wilderness to eat dirt instead of enjoying the meal we have with Jesus. So often our awareness, our experience is that we went from false beliefs straight to listening to the enemy. And often by the time we get to talking about this with other people, this is what's happened. We already went through a loop where we followed the enemy in our choices, and then we're coming back and saying, Hey, what else could I have done? And what else do I need to do to repent and move in a different direction here? So the arrow does actually go to the table. But this placement of the arrow helps us understand like by the time we're sharing this with another person, this is probably what's happened. And then if we follow the enemy and take what the enemy is offering, which we'll talk about today, then what happens is the loop starts over, and next time we have a problematic event, we're dealing often with the same false beliefs and going through the same patterns of relief, and the cycle continues. In fact, the cycle grows stronger because our false beliefs feel a little bit more true every time we practice. But when we follow Jesus, if we can move to the other side where we're standing in the gospel in vulnerability and in repentance, we enter into worship. And when we step into worship, we experience intimacy with Jesus. Our false beliefs lose power. And actually, our beliefs in what's true grow stronger. So that's a different loop. So sticking with the Matrix theme, we had, as Mark mentioned last week, there's this scene in the Matrix where Neo is getting shot at, and he's able to slow time down so he can dodge bullets. That's what the table of decision is for. The more we practice this, the more we have the opportunity when the false beliefs kick in and the emotion is strong to slow it down and say, okay, this feels like it always feels, but I know that I have a different decision. We can slow it down. And that's what we're that's what we're trying to do. So today we're talking about the enemy side of the table, which includes affirmation, relief, and justification. And we will get into those, but first, I want to talk about who our enemy is. All right. So there are a few things that we need to know as we step into this process together. The first is that the enemy, the devil, is a liar. So in John 8 44, Jesus, speaking of the devil, says, He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. So not only is Satan the enemy, is he a liar, he's the liar. He's the father of lies. Every message that you get from the enemy is a lie. And it may have some kernel of truth woven into it to make it seem more plausible. Still a lie, still headed towards death. The enemy also is the accuser. Revelation 12, 10 says, Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. All right, so here we have the two sides of the table, right? We have the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his messiah, and then we have the accuser of the brothers and the sisters, whose ultimate end is to be hurled down, is to be out of the picture eventually, because Jesus has already gained the victory over the enemy. But he is the accuser, and the enemy accuses us to each other all the time. And the enemy accuses us to God, and God to us, and us to ourselves. The enemy is always flinging accusations. And so when you hear accusations, you know whose voice you're listening to. The enemy is the accuser. Now, the enemy, as we speak about even in this verse, in Ephesians 6.11, is um is the devil, is Satan, who was a specific individual, a created being that uh rebelled against God, but that created being is not omnipresent and cannot read your thoughts. And so when we talk about the enemy, I want to be really clear that the devil himself is not the one who is always talking to you. Let's read Ephesians 6.11. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. So the enemy is actually this network of evil that's in the world. There are rulers, there are authorities, there are powers, there are spiritual forces of evil that are all working together in similar ways. And so when we come to the table of decision and we talk about the enemy side of the table, we're not talking about us interacting with one individual, one created being. We're talking about us interacting with this force of evil. And sometimes evil is at work even when we make bad decisions and participate in it in the world, right? It's not far from us, it's around, it's present. But Jesus tells us that we can take our stand against it. And specifically, that we can stand against the devil's schemes because the enemy is scheming. So, welcome to the battle. When we step into the hot seat process together, we are fighting a spiritual battle. 1 Peter 5, 8 and 9 says, Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world, the family of believers throughout the village is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. So, what happens in our daily lives is the enemy is already prowling around looking for someone to devour, and we have a problematic event, and we have negative emotions, and our emotions become the battlefield where the enemy stops prowling and attacks and starts building up schemes and inviting us into them. Because negative emotions aren't inherently bad, right? I was gonna grab the pillow of emotions, which makes me laugh. Jake Barr bought us the pillows of emotion. If you're ever like, I don't know exactly how I feel, you can find it on here. Anyway, the primary emotions are fear, anger, disgust, sadness, surprise, and happiness. They're not inherently bad. And in fact, our emotions often tell us what we need to be safe. They tell us when it's time to get out of somewhere that's dangerous. They're actually really good things that God has given us. But because they've become connected to our false beliefs, they become the battlefield that the enemy is facing us on. Okay, so another clarification that I want to make is that on the enemy side of the table, what we talk about is affirmation, relief, and justification. And these are good words that describe good things. Okay, so if I tell you something that you're really good at and uh you feel encouraged, that's a good affirmation. If I do something that was really scary, but I knew it was the right thing to do, and I feel relief afterwards, that's a good kind of relief. And as we've talked about a lot in the past year, justification can mean the process that Jesus is bringing us through to be lined up with Him as we're transformed into His image. So these are good words. But the way that they're used in the hot seat model is actually as kind of summary words for phrases. So what we're talking about with affirmation is actually an affirmation of false beliefs. Where the enemy says, hey, that thing that you believe, that sure feels true, doesn't it? But it's not true, it's an affirmation of a false belief. The relief that we find in this part of the hot seat is a relief from negative emotions, and the justification is actually a justification of selfish behavior. So these words that could mean really positive things mean more destructive things when we get into this space. Often when we're doing the hot seat process, this all gets just kind of summarized into affirmation relief justification because we know what we're talking about. But I'm gonna leave them in the long form today, just so we can keep that in mind of what exactly. They're talking about. So let's get into it. There are three ploys of the enemy that we're going to talk about today, three ways that the enemy comes after us and tries to take us down and devour us. And the first one is an affirmation of false beliefs. What happens here is we already have a false belief. We're already having an emotional response to it. And the enemy starts telling a story. And what the enemy tells us is something we have heard before. The enemy will say, Boy, this has happened before. Remember that other time? Could be with the same person, could be with somebody else. This has happened before. The point of it is to cause the accusations to amplify, to get louder, and the emotions to get more intense. Because what happens when your emotions get more intense? What happens when that feeling in your body starts really getting bad? Like you feel like you're getting choked out, you might suffocate. We're much more likely to do something that we know we shouldn't do, that we really don't want to be doing. We're much more likely to seek relief. Now, in my little hot seat story, the affirmation of false beliefs for me is a memory of another time with a different family member who asked me to do something, and I wasn't either able to or didn't want to, and I said no. They were really hurt, and things got so messy. And so I'm pretty sure that could happen right here, all over again, with this other person. That's an affirmation of false belief. Sometimes affirmation, affirmations of false belief are memories of times I've felt this way before. Sometimes they're just statements that run through our head, which could be I have to say yes. So even if it's not possible for me to do this thing, I have to say yes, which amplifies my feelings of like, oh, I'm trapped. I don't know what I'm gonna do. So questions we might ask each other when we get to this part of the model include in what other situation has this happened before? How long have you struggled with this? And that one we're not just looking for how many years, but like if you've been struggling with this since you were four, what happened when you were four? What's the story attached to it? Other ways of finding this idea are what tapes are playing, which I don't know if that's going to become an idiom or not, but tape players are definitely on their way out as of like 1982. Is there anybody here who's never used a tape player before? One person. Okay. Brooke is the end of the line on the tape player metaphor.

unknown: 23:17

Spotify.

SPEAKER_09: 23:18

Spotify, yeah. So what is your Spotify playlist? What text message do you keep getting from yourself? Uh what's the meme? I don't know. There's gotta be that those are all gonna be outdated in two days, too. Umple? Yeah. What record is playing even better? Yeah, and records are even better because they get caught on a loop. Yeah, okay, we can develop this, Emily. What's your recording? Yeah, and vinyls are in right now. You're right. Okay, but you get the idea that it's this sometimes there's a sentence that just runs through your head. Um, and and you and it's just there. That is an affirmation of false beliefs as well. And the other one could be what accusation is running through your mind or what's the sentence you keep hearing. So we're looking for stories, we're looking for sentences, but we don't want to get stuck in them, right? We don't want to live a long time on this side of the table. We're not doing a deep exploration of a childhood event. It's just, oh yeah, this was here already, wasn't it? We find one of them and we move on. So then the next ploy of the enemy is to invite us into relief from our negative emotions. So what happens when we hear the amplification, when we hear the affirmation, we're actually in a moment where we could repent, where we could say, Wow, I'm really thinking some bad stuff about myself and other people. I wonder what Jesus is telling me right now. We have these opportunities along the way to go head over head back to the table. But what the enemy does is kind of a two-stage thing in relief. There is an opportunity to agree with the enemy's narrative. So we say, Yeah, wow, that feels really true. People are out to get me, and I cannot come through for them. This is a trap. I'm trapped. We agree with the enemy's narrative, but then the enemy so kindly offers us a way out. Now, what's ironic about this is the enemy is just really bad at forgery because God is already offering us a way out. If we look at 1 Corinthians 10, 13, it says, No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. God is offering us a way out in this moment. But the enemy has created a false construct and is now inviting us to a false way out that has real-world implications for us and the people around us. The enemy offers us a way out, which is usually some form of increasingly destructive emotions, or some kind of action. So on the emotional side, it may be to move from fear to contempt or feeling really angry at the other person, or just despair, just like I can't do anything about this anyway. So, like some kind of more destructive emotional process. Or it could be any number of actions, could be actions that look so good to other people, and it could be actions that really look destructive. So for me, my relief when I get a surprising text message that I'm not sure what to do with is to ruminate. So I will start this process of thinking through like, how could I say yes, even if it's not a good time to say yes? If I can't say yes, how am I gonna word this text so that I can make myself look as good as possible on the way out of the conversation? So I start ruminating. And this is something actually that started in my childhood. When I was a kid, if somebody in my family was mad at me, I would go to my room and have a really long argument in the mirror. And it might be really quiet, I might just be whispering it because I didn't want anybody else to know, but I would have a whole conversation with the other person that they weren't part of. And so now I'm much more sophisticated. I can do it without the mirror, which is great because it's really portable. Can do it anywhere. I like to ruminate, it is one of my main forms of relief. So that's one where people don't know what's happening, but it's actually keeping me from loving the people I'm standing next to because I'm not really paying attention to them. I'm having a conversation in my head. Now, these can also look other ways, like there are addictions that will happen at this point that we'll choose. Like we could go to drugs or drinking, we could binge Netflix, we could get into social media and just numb out. We can do really active stuff like yelling at somebody or lying to somebody. We can take control of the situation and solve it. We can just try to figure it out or exercise more, clean more, garden more, work more. We might speak manipulatively to another person or come through for people. These can look great, they can look terrible, but the motivation is relief from these emotions that seem to be a big problem right now. So, some questions we can ask each other include but are not limited to. Is okay, we're talking about relief. How have you been finding relief? It's a good question. Which brings us to justification. Once we have chosen a relief pathway, we know our motives weren't right, the Holy Spirit is convicting us, and we will create a justification for our bad behavior, for our maybe good-looking behavior that was still selfishly motivated. So the justification of selfish behavior is what we tell ourselves to justify our decision or to say it was okay for me to do that. This often includes some statement that puts down the other person. They're not gonna do anything anyway. I have to do it myself. It may be arrogant or self-protective, it may be apathetic, it might be a clear demand, it might be a rule I have that has a clear consequence, and it may not even be a good rule, but if it exists as a demand, then it'll come up as a justification. And my justification for selfish behavior in my hot seat example is I have to figure it out. It's not even a good justification. If somebody came and asked me about that and they said why do you have to figure it out? I really wouldn't have a good answer to that why question, which would be a good question. But it doesn't have to be a good justification, it just has to be one we are hanging on to. This process of people having events, feeling emotions, believing false beliefs, and finding themselves at a place where they could lean over and listen to what God is telling them, or they could head towards something that's much darker, that's evil, that's drawing them away from what God has for them. We find this with King Saul. And the story goes like this. Saul had only recently become king over Israel, appointed by God, and the Israelites were being, were in this conflict with the Philistines. The Philistines were big warrior people, they were really scary, and they hated the Israelites and the God of the Israelites. And so this skirmish had already happened between Saul's son and some Philistines, which amplified the battle that was underway, and things were about to happen. So Samuel, who is the priest of God, tells Saul, Go to Gilgal, wait for seven days, I will come and offer a sacrifice to the Lord, and do not proceed until then. That's where we pick up in the story. Starting in 1 Samuel 13, verse 6. When the Israelites saw that their situation was critical and that their army was hard-pressed, they hid in caves and thickets, among the rocks, and in pits and cisterns. Some Hebrews even crossed the Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. Saul remained at Gilgal, and all the troops with him were quaking with fear. He waited seven days, the time set by Samuel, but Samuel did not come to Gilgal, and Saul's men began to scatter. So he said, Bring me the burnt offering and the fellowship offerings. And Saul offered up the burnt offering. Just as he finished making the offering, Samuel arrived, and Saul went out to greet him. What have you done? asked Samuel. All right, so Saul is the king, but he's not the priest. And it is the job of the priest to offer the sacrifice. So Saul has seriously stepped out of his role in doing this. And Samuel knows that the results are dire. So let's consider. We have to use our imaginations for this because it's not all included in the text necessarily. What Saul's false beliefs might have been. We already know that we have an event. He's facing battle. He has waited seven days. He is feeling pretty fearful. Everyone in Israel is fearful. They're hiding in holes, they're running away. And the false belief about self could be for Saul, I have to do everything myself. Nobody else is going to do it. False belief about others, maybe the Philistines are going to wipe us out. Or about Samuel, Samuel is unreliable. It could even be Samuel is dead. Because there are Philistines all over the place. His false belief about God could be God isn't really paying attention. Or maybe God doesn't care how this goes. Saul gives us his own lengthy justification. So we'll read that part in a little bit. But first, I just want to touch on affirmation. Again, could just be that story. It's all on me. And there's a story not too long before this, a couple chapters before, when Samuel meets Saul, where Saul is actually out in the wilderness looking for his dad's donkeys. So his dad has sent him out into the desert. How do you find donkeys in the middle of a desert? So they're wandering around, they can't find them. And so there's a story already for this. Like it's all on me, it's my responsibility to go find my dad's donkeys. I don't know how to do this, but I'm gonna go do it anyway. So he's got a story to pin his affirmation to. And then his choice for relief is to just offer the sacrifice himself. Like, ah, I can't wait any longer. I'll feel much better if I just do this. Then we can get things started. But let's listen to his justification, starting in verse 11 of 1 Samuel 13. Saul replied to Samuel, When I saw that the men were scattering and that you did not come at the set time, little accusation jab against Samuel, and that the Philistines were assembling at Mi'mash, I thought, Now the Philistines will come down against me at Gilgal, and I have not sought the Lord's favor. That even sounds a little holy. Like, oh, I was just trying to please God. Sometimes our justifications sound pretty good to us. So I felt compelled to offer the burnt offering. I had to. Samuel says, You have done a foolish thing. No matter how well you justify this thing, the outcome is still really destructive. And what God was inviting Saul into was really radical trust. To stand in the face of impending doom and say, no, God is bigger than this, and I'll do what he asked me to do. I will wait on God as long as I have to. And that's what God is inviting us to. When we face these things that for some reason we know they shouldn't feel like life or death issues, but man, they really do. What God is inviting us to is a trust that is willing to face that intensity and wait on God and listen to His side of the story before we act. And what God is inviting us to is to take hold of our own agency. Because this is the place where we start making choices. And we've done this so many times before. We've had this knee-jerk reaction, we've had the feeling, we've done the thing, we've gone through the loop so many times that it doesn't even feel like a choice to us so often. But what God is saying is, oh, you you have a choice here. You have a choice to listen and to come to my side of the table to eat this meal, to walk in the gospel. So that is the enemy side of the table. And next week we get to hear about Jesus, which is way better. And about his story, the identity he offers us, his kingdom that we get to live in. And even though the enemy toys with us and prowls after us and all of these things, the enemy is not the one who's victorious, and the enemy is not the one who's in control. Jesus has already won the battle, and we are already seated in Christ in the heavenly places. Our true identity is in Jesus, and He is welcoming us into His victory. So we want to hang on to that as we walk through this week, waiting for the gospel side of the table. We have a few minutes. Are there any questions or maybe things that the Holy Spirit is stirring in you that you're excited about as we talk about this?

SPEAKER_01: 40:53

Emily. Thank you. This is good. Um, you said that we're entering the battle. I was getting gnattered at with lies that were just tearing me apart for hours yesterday. I was already in the battle. I think we're all in the battle, and that this is all the time, but maybe we're sitting down and getting beat over the head. And this is a good method for standing up in the battle and joining Jesus in his victory of loving people. How does that sound?

SPEAKER_09: 41:35

That's what we're hoping.

SPEAKER_01: 41:36

That's what we're hoping. I wish I just stopped and done some of this yesterday instead of going for three hours of misery.

SPEAKER_09: 41:45

Yeah, the burden of the enemy really is unbearable.

SPEAKER_07: 41:50

It struck me as you were talking that in some of the diagrams we separate out problem and event. Yeah. So I have a problem and an event. And how often the problem is like is my relief? I find I'm just like getting mad at other people a lot. Well, that there's like this relief that's happening. Okay, well, let's when was the last time you that that happened and you can get into it? So sometimes when we come to this, we're like, I'm seeking relief in all these other places. Can you help me figure out what my event was and and then go through it?

SPEAKER_08: 42:26

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Andrew?

SPEAKER_06: 42:33

Yeah, thank you. It really helps digging into this in more detail and just hearing more thoroughly all about this. Um I guess I'm wondering, like, this might be a misunderstanding of what a false belief is, but like if I have a false belief of this person isn't gonna like me if this happens or if I don't do this, like when that does happen, like I I choose to not take the relief and it does have a negative consequence. Yeah. Sort of like are there deeper things going on there? Was it like was there a different false belief that was deeper down? I guess just like how to still it's hard to hold on to truth in that.

SPEAKER_09: 43:19

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thanks for bringing that up, Andrew. Um, I think that false beliefs can happen, right? Like if I believe that everyone is always going to use me, there might be a situation where somebody is actually trying to use me for something. And but the false part is that this is just it's bound to happen, and it's bound to happen all the time. So I think there's also part of it is allowing the other person the space to make a good choice or a bad choice, right? The false belief, when we choose to act in spite of it, we are creating an opportunity for the other person to care for us and to treat us in loving ways. They might not do it. So then in that case, it could sometimes turn out to be true what um that that thing happens. But I think also what we're talking about in this side of the table, especially regarding the amplification of emotions and stuff like that, is we're trying to gain control over our emotional experience instead of handing it to Jesus. And Jesus is inviting us to hand it to him and to be vulnerable to that experience and to be like, wow, that whoa, that really hurt, and then be in a conversation with him about what needs to happen in that case, because we're still standing as the priest to the other person, and so we have a vulnerability to offer them, and we have an opportunity to love them in the middle of that experience that we could have protected ourselves from, but now we've stepped into it following Jesus, and we have Jesus to follow through it. It's a really good question, Eric.

SPEAKER_05: 45:06

Yeah, and just to tack on to that is to remember that false beliefs that are attached to negative emotions tend to be character things. So I am this. Or they are, so it's their character. They are a liar, not they lie sometimes. Um God is not ever here. God's not gonna come through from here. God, like God is this. So it's they're character statements.

SPEAKER_09: 45:33

Tricia and then Rod and then Philip.

SPEAKER_08: 45:37

I uh would like to know what the difference is between ruminating or and obsessing, or are they the same thing?

SPEAKER_09: 45:48

That's a good question. I think I think that they for functional purposes are interchangeable.

SPEAKER_07: 45:58

They may look slightly different, like having a conversation with the person in your head over and over, or going back over the event again and again and again, but like there's either a future conversation or a replaying of the event. Those are both very similar, like ruminating obsessing events.

SPEAKER_04: 46:19

So irrespective of the problematic event or the or the negative emotion, always it goes to a false belief. And for me, that false belief is almost always the same false belief. Like it's not some new false belief, it's the old false belief that God doesn't care for me, provide for me, or take care of me. So even in a very recent hot seat thing in our pilgrim group, uh it made me so ticked at myself because I'm right there again, and I think, well, this is stupid. You already know what the relief is, and you know what Jesus is offering, and you hurry, you really hurry to what Jesus is offering, but that repetitive that false belief, because it came from a completely different event and even a different emotion, it doesn't feel like it's the same false belief. And so um, if you could tease that out a little bit about how that that's the place where I want it it's almost instantaneous, like it's it's like my brain goes to oh, you idiot, you're doing the same dumb thing you've always done, but I'm not an idiot and I'm not dumb, and I can false beliefs back into that, and the Holy Spirit is using that moment. Um, but can we get to the place where we don't get triggered by anything and we can just say, uh, you know, I have that false belief, I don't have it anymore.

SPEAKER_09: 48:01

Doesn't that sound great? Yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't know. That's a good question. I think I do think that as we follow Jesus, I mean, I think what you're saying is that it's the same false belief, but it there's different facets to it because it comes in from different angles from maybe different stories in your history. And I think that as we follow Jesus in obedient, he is actually healing the different aspects of our of our false beliefs and inviting us into repentance of both our selfish behaviors and also, wow, I believed this lie and I chose to believe it. And so I think some of the repentance comes in at repenting of believing the lie. Um, but I do think that they diminish in power over time as we repetitively follow Jesus out.

SPEAKER_04: 48:58

So the um the evil that I would not do that I do, the evil that are the good that I would do, I don't do. So I that too enters in, right? Like I long to do that good thing and to not believe that false thing. Right. Um, and it's um so and I think Paul becomes far more aware of his sin at the end of his life than he is at the beginning of his life. Like, so there's this thing of the sin when I first start out, I it's no big deal. I'm the least of the apostles. Oh well. To Paul says, I'm the worst of sinners. Like, really? You're the saint. No, I'm the worst. And so there is that kind of thing too, where there's an understanding of that.

SPEAKER_09: 49:45

Yeah, I think, and even the worst of the I do what I do not want to do is in the middle of a section where he's talking about the law and the how the law works on us. And I think what he's saying is grace. Like every time we walk through this, it's an opportunity to receive grace, to understand God's grace more deeply, and that we can't get it right. We don't have to get it right, we just have to keep coming back and receiving grace. Yeah, Dilip?

SPEAKER_03: 50:14

Yeah, thanks for the the sermon. Um I noticed you you mentioned earlier that that we don't ask why questions because it's kind of uh uh can be come off as judgmental and stuff like that. But I also noticed you had a why question under the. Oh man, I tried to weed them all out.

SPEAKER_09: 50:35

I can't I caught a couple of them and changed them.

SPEAKER_03: 50:37

But I I was one I was thinking, like, is there something about that step of justification from the enemy where we actually do want to like bring light to the lies of the enemy and and actually figure out like this is actually really uh ridiculous what Satan is offering to us as a justification.

SPEAKER_09: 51:03

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I really like that. Um, I think it's it's really helpful to actually say that like, oh man, look what the enemy is offering you. It's just it's crazy. This is ridiculous. That's not gonna fix anything. Yeah. Um that's funny. Why is it okay to treat people that way?

SPEAKER_02: 51:26

Yeah, I think um Jim. Yeah, I think what you were kind of warning us is kind of why'd you get in this problem in the first place? Sue, why'd you answer the phone?

SPEAKER_09: 51:34

But um Yeah, a question you can't really answer.

SPEAKER_02: 51:37

Yeah. The the thing that really just spoke to me today was just that idea of agency. Um, and so even coming to Andrew's thing. Well, maybe they are out to manipulate me and get me again, but Jesus offers me to act where I'm the agent instead of I'm being forced into this vicious cycle. And I think in some marriage training, there was something called a disc, and you try and crash the disc because you're just in this pattern response with your spouse or any other person that you're in relationship with. And um, what I thought about was John chapter 8, where to the Jews who believed him, Jesus said, If you hold to my teaching, you're really my disciples, then you'll know the truth, and the truth will set you free. And the Jews are like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we've never been slaves, we're Abraham's kids. And Jesus says, Everyone who sins is a saved is a slave to sin. But if the son sets you free, you'll be free indeed. And then he says, Because you're of your father, the devil, and he's a murderer and a liar from the beginning. And so I think it's that that agency, that freedom that's the hugeness that we overlook that Jesus is inviting us to.

SPEAKER_09: 52:57

Yeah, thanks, Jim. Yeah, I think that also comes up in our stories because there may be a time where we were a victim of something, but God is calling out of us out of an identity of being a victim in every circumstance. Eric?

SPEAKER_05: 53:11

Yeah, it sounds like we got a lot of hands, so I'll make this really fast. I I think if we just quickly run through your hot seat, the beauty of all of this is when we talk about agency, it's yes, you have these false beliefs about whoever this wonderful person is who texted you, but when you talk to them, part of your agency is that you can say, hey, yeah, like this is how I experienced it, and I'm sorry that I actually believe these things about you. And if you have this opportunity to step into vulnerability and repentance, and repentance is relational.

SPEAKER_09: 53:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 53:45

And I think it's a the part of this is not necessarily trying to figure out how to make the decision better or change the loop, but learning that repair is the thing that makes the kingdom of God work. Yeah, brings he. That's what Jesus is inviting us into.

SPEAKER_09: 54:06

One other thought, too, on what Philip was saying, um, is that I think there's a ridiculous thing that the enemy invites us into in relief, but also the enemy wants to undermine our truest identity. So what God created us for, what really reflects his image into the world, the enemy will also attack that in our false beliefs and um and in the other people that the enemy is accusing. So sometimes it's helpful to highlight that and be like, wow, this that that thing the enemy tell is telling you is so wrong. So we're done. I'm getting this from the cutoff sign from pastors. Russ, and then we'll close it down. Oh yeah, Eric Lewis.

SPEAKER_07: 54:53

All right, one.

SPEAKER_00: 54:58

So I was thinking about what Rod said about it's sort of the false belief isn't the same in all of them. So I've been thinking about the justification a lot, but I'm thinking maybe the main focus of the hot seat should be like the false beliefs and the worship. So I really like the idea that God is renewing and transforming us in different facets of the false belief. I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_09: 55:24

Yeah, thanks, Eric. All right, well, let's pray. Father, thank you so much that you care about us, that you're present with us, that in these this place that we stand right now, uh, where we are opposed by an enemy who lies and accuses, um, that you have made a way for us to walk in freedom, that you have invited us into your victory over the enemy, and that you talk to us in scripture about how to step into that. And I just pray that as we take this up and walk in it, that you would help us to be in a process of experiencing our false beliefs, diminishing, of walking in vulnerability, of learning new ways to love each other well and to just follow in the footsteps of Jesus. Pray that in your name, Jesus. Amen.