The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe - I’d Sell You To Satan For One Turkish Delight

In this special Christmas Episode of “Teaching My Cat to Read”, we discuss the classic children’s novel “The lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe” By CS Lewis. We discuss, Christian Allegory, the enchanted Turkish Delights, character arcs and how not to die in a Wardrobe. 

What rating do we think our cat will give this book? Listen to find out!

Content Warnings
Mild Swearing

Transcript

 Hello, and welcome to Teaching My Cat To Read, The very serious Book Review Podcast.

I'm Eli.

I'm Em.

And I'm Lottie.

And this week, we're discussing everything about Wyrd Systers by Terry Pratchett.

I know.

Oh, this book is so good.

I love it.

I love it.

I'm happy to be back on the disc.

I am happy to be back on the disc world.

I am so happy.

And I think, like, yeah, before we...

Shall I read this summary, like the book blurb, just in case anyone hasn't read this book, because I feel, to give context.

So it says, Three witches on a lonely heath, a Cain cruelly murdered, his throne absurd by his ambitious cousin, a child heir and the royal crown, both missing.

Witches don't have these kinds of leadership problems themselves.

In fact, they don't have leaders.

Granny Weatherwax is the most highly regarded of the leaders they don't have.

But even she finds that meddling in royal politics is a lot more complicated than certain playwrights would have you believe, particularly when the blood on your hands just won't wash off, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot.

So this book is basically Macbeth.

That's my whole terrible summary of this.

It's basically Macbeth.

But also...

It's like a couple of elements of Macbeth.

It really doesn't do the whole thing.

I think it's wider Shakespeare as well.

He won't stop referencing other plays, yeah.

And also Panto.

Like the Tempest references, there's one that's called Please Yourself, which is like As You Like It.

Yeah, there's like lots and lots of wider Shakespeare references.

Hamlet does not come up that much, actually, I don't think.

No, I don't think it does.

For being insanely famous.

That is true.

But yeah, there's elements of Macbeth.

Well, I think the main thing is that we're watching Macbeth be written in real time.

That's sort of the plot of the book.

The history bit is sort of happening in Lancre where somebody's killed a king in order to take over.

And in the meantime...

But this is like normal for them, you know?

The witches are talking about how like it's not really murder if you kill a king to take over.

That's just like a natural order.

That's natural causes for a king, yeah.

Terrible summary.

I mean, it's Macbeth.

It's Macbeth.

And then somebody within Macbeth is also writing Macbeth, except Macbeth is supposed to be a propaganda exercise about how the guy definitely didn't kill the previous king and he's good and righteous, and the other guy was totally evil anyway, so it doesn't matter, except the play keeps turning into Macbeth.

Because that is what actually happened.

Yes.

And the truth will out because this is the disc.

My favourite phrase is, the fool jingled miserably across the floor.

It's a classic, isn't it?

There's such an iconic line.

I realised before we re-read this, like how many iconic Discworld lines were in this book.

Because like there's so many.

The we're witches and we live in cycle with natures and do no harm to anyone.

It's wicked of them to say we don't.

We should fill the hot bones with hot lead.

Yeah.

I know.

I'd forgotten that was this one.

Also, I hadn't realised that that was where I'd gotten that from.

Because I say it's wicked of them to say we don't, like every other week.

And I'd completely forgotten that that was from here.

That is excellent.

The descriptions of Grebo are so good as well.

Like, what a perfect book.

I think I laughed out loud like about six or seven separate times to reading it.

I read it this afternoon.

I did wonder about for my terrible summary being like, so there was a review in the front of my copy where the guy basically says, oh, I can't actually review this book.

I don't think there's any better way to review it than simply like opening it at random and starting typing something, because you will immediately, there will be something guaranteed, hysterically funny, no matter which page I open it at.

I can't advertise the book to you better than that.

And like, it's so true that like, I mean, I haven't been, I haven't read any Discworld in a while, and I was reading this and going, genuinely every single fucking line is a banger.

How is he this good?

This is only like the sixth Discworld, and already he's like, he's on a completely other level.

He's on a completely different planet.

Just like, nobody is doing it like him.

I think my first Love Art Live moment was like, less than two pages in where he's talking about this storm that's been building up and he's like, yeah, it had been putting in like, it had been putting in long hours doing grunt work as a squall, it had worked its way up.

Like, such a good description.

It had been understudying for major tempests.

Yeah, the storm is a working actor.

Like, this whole book is about a love of theatre.

Like, a genuine love of theatre and how magic it is.

As well as being about the Scottish play.

I'd also forgotten that the storm came back at the end.

Like, the storm is actually like, plot relevant, almost.

Which is fucking hysterical.

This was payoff, I was not expecting at all.

But that was, but that's another one of the really iconic.

That and the, from the very beginning, the, when shall we three meet again?

Well, I could do next Tuesday.

Yeah.

The other bit of payoff I had forgotten about was the forest as an entity, like when, you know, when Varnum and Rishal come to Dunsinane, type, you know.

Yeah.

And the second time you see the forest as an entity in this book, I had completely forgotten.

Oh, yeah, so would I.

What happens to the Dutchess, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I'd kind of remembered the granny trying to, realising that there was another mind around that she didn't recognise.

Yeah.

And having it turn out to be the kingdom, like the whole, the whole, the land itself.

I'd remembered that, although admittedly not how spooky it was.

Yes.

And, but yeah, I'd forgotten about the, the forest getting the duchess at the end.

That was.

Yes.

But yeah, I mean, that kind of brings us on to like, have you guys read this before?

I mean, obviously, yeah, we've all read it for this one.

But so what did you think of it as a brand new?

I mean, I'd read it before, like, since we started doing Discord on the podcast, like just myself.

And I listened to the audio book and it's India.

Indira Varma?

Yeah, that's the one.

I can't pronounce her name.

She plays, Ilaria Sandle, Game of Thrones, I think.

She's great.

Oh, so she does all the audio books for The Witches, the new audio book productions with Penguin on Audible.

And I assume that they're available elsewhere, but I think they were primarily on Audible first.

Anyway, she does all of the audio books.

And I genuinely think her performances of these audio books make The Witches books my favorite books to listen to.

Nice.

Like, it's so good.

Her voice is so good.

And what's great is it's got Bill Nye doing the footnotes.

And Peter Svrenovic doing the voice of death.

So of course, all of the books in the audio book, like Bill Nye does all the footnotes.

Oh, that's really cool.

Peter Svrenovic does death.

And it, yeah, genuinely, like I'll always say, if you're someone who kind of wants an audio book to listen to in the background while you're doing other things, like I know chores or commuting, like on the train or something like that, I highly recommend The Witch's Book, all the Discworld books.

I mean, I'm slowly working my way through them, but The Witch's Books in particular, by her narrating them, are brilliant.

I've got to get in on audio books because I was reading this this afternoon and Gothmog, the cat that still does not know how to read, she was trying, bless her, she was trying, she was trying to take the book from me and back it away with her little hands, her little paws.

Her terrible evil hands, her crying doing hands.

We could sit and listen to an audio book together, you know?

I mean, before starting this podcast, I'd never listened to an audio book.

And I think, to be honest, most of, I think it was actually Discworld that I started, apart from Small Gods, which I did read, I didn't have enough time and I said, oh, okay, I'll find them an audible.

And they're just, and I think since then, I've just been absolute convert to audio books.

Like I'll still read like physical books, but I think with the Discworld series, there's a certain joy when they've got like really good actors doing it.

And especially this because you get the, like the play within a play comes out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you can kind of hear like the references to Shakespeare.

I just said there wasn't any Hamlet references, but there's a play within a play.

So yeah, yeah, there's a play in a play.

And it's a play within a play that's trying, that ends up outing a murderer.

Yeah.

Okay.

So there's a very subtle Hamlet reference.

Okay.

There is only that, but like death in the books where it's not a death book, he is effectively does have a cameo.

Like he just turns up and he has a cameo in the play.

Death is the only character that's in every Discworld book, I think.

He has stage fright.

I love him so much.

He has so much character of all time to me.

I suddenly hug him.

Well, it was quite funny the way they described it because it was saying that like death is, what was it?

His magic is like, because humans aren't expecting him there, they only can perceive him when they're dead.

But because with the magic of the theatre, they expect him to be there.

So he's visible.

Death is there and therefore he is visible to them.

I will say my favourite death moment in this book is not that, although it is brilliant, but it's at the beginning when Verence has been killed.

So the King, what's the name of the King of Macbeth?

Well, I'll find this out next time because we're going to do Macbeth next.

But I actually do.

Is it Malcolm?

Yes, it's Malcolm.

I was going to say Macduff, but Macduff is the guy who comes after, yeah.

Yeah, Malcolm is the Malcolm of this story.

Verence, he's just been killed with his own dagger.

And he's there chatting with death as you do after you've just been murdered with your own dagger.

And he mentions that he doesn't like cats.

And death eyes go red.

And he's like, I expect you like great big dogs, don't you?

It's so funny.

Also, I tell you what I did love is the fact that cats can perceive dead people.

Well, yeah.

And of course it's Grievo as well, who is the cat that perceives dead people.

Of course it's Grievo.

But it's just the fact that cats have this spectral vision and also death loves cats.

It was just like a great tie-in and-

I mean, it's simply true.

It's Terry Pratchett doing some great observational writing because that's simply a truth about the world.

It is.

It is, it is.

What about you guys?

When did you first read this?

Or have you seen other productions of this?

Because I know there's an adaptation of it that is on the BBC, I think, what, 90s, but I haven't watched it.

I have not seen the adaptation.

I first read this maybe when I was like early 20s, when I was first reading Discworld.

I don't think I've gone back to it, actually, since first reading it.

I don't think this is one that I've reread.

I tend to go for like Small Gods or Night Watch or like some of the other, like the ones that I'm particularly like emotionally attached to, where it's like this is just a banger.

It doesn't like, this is one that doesn't make me cry, actually.

A lot of Discworlds make me cry, but I don't think there was a moment where I cried in this one.

That's fair.

I think the later Witch's books are a bit more...

Heavy hitting in some ways.

I mean, this one's very spooky, but...

Yeah, Carpe Jugulum, I remember being quite heavy.

I haven't got on to that one yet.

Well, we'll get there for the podcast eventually.

I think it's my next audio book, actually, to listen to once I've eventually got my way through something else.

But, yeah.

Yeah, no, it wasn't the one of the ones.

So my Discworld history is that classic, whatever you have at home and in whatever order the library has them kind of reading.

And we actually, our collection in our household of The Witches started with Lords and Ladies.

So I actually hadn't read, I'd gotten through a huge chunk of the Discworld before I went back and read Equal Rights and Weird Sisters and Witches Abroad.

Yeah.

And so I think I've read it more than once, but I hadn't, it wasn't one that, like I said, we didn't have it around while I was growing up.

So it wasn't one that I learned off by heart, you know?

I think I did, weirdly enough, see a production of it at the ADC back in the day.

I saw a student production that was, I remember it being decent.

It wasn't one of the kind of standout.

But I think it's a shame really because of all of them, it ought to be the one that transfers best to the stage.

And I don't remember it being particularly...

Well, you know, it's got to be played properly, you know?

Yeah, and I think there's, it's like a lot of this with a lot of amateur theatre, like, very often, there's like, you know, it's decent, and then there's one person who's really, really good, and you remember them generally.

But I don't think that was the case with this one.

I think it was just...

The Tom John of the show, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But yeah, no, it's, it's been weird to come back to, because I think I remembered it differently to how it actually is, or possibly just as an adult, I'm reading it differently.

But like, I remember Granny being meaner, I remember liking Magrat less, and I remember the fool being a lot less sympathetic than I found him this time.

Well, we're all in our thirties now, so I feel like we all just grow more sympathy for the fool every day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's the first of the major arcana for a reason.

But yeah, no, it was good to come back.

I also had forgotten that it's actually quite scary.

Like, there's bits of...

Oh, not scary, but you know, there are bits that are clearly intended to be horror rather than humour.

Yeah.

The way the Duke is slowly going mad, and the way the Duke is kind of...

Shredding his hand to try and get the blood out, up to the point where at one point the narration says, like, it's referred to as his hand, and then it says, although the word was hardly appropriate anymore, which is like, he's like destroyed this appendage down to the bones or something.

And it's done like really subtly as well.

So there's like bits where he's like, maybe he'll try sandpaper next.

And you're just like, ah!

It's not belaboured, but it's like he's, he's like genuinely just destroying his own body in a way that I find very, like stomach turning.

Yeah.

It's just not laboured, that the point is not sort of hovered, lingered over at all.

Yeah, I think it's one of the things which I love about Discworld is I assume if you read this, you could read it as a kid and not pick up on a lot of the like either darker themes, innuendo, like double entendre.

Oh, the fucking drat de senior thing.

Yeah, right.

I love the punchline of all of that, which is that you expect that the fool is really the son of the king, but it's the other way around and that both Tonjon and the fool are the sons biologically of the fool's father, which is just great.

I was not, because I remembered the twist.

Obviously, I remembered that they were brothers, and that's how they get around the whole Tonjon doesn't want to be king thing, but I'd forgotten that neither of them were actually related to the king.

Yep.

Which is such a fucking delightful twist.

Oh, and there's some bits in the sort of the do-do-mom where the king is like, oh, my own flesh and blood or whatever.

It's like, no, he's not actually.

Yeah.

Yeah, sorry, bud.

It's all right.

I did enjoy, like, I think one of the things that I think it just shows how well written this book is, is I am someone who gets really bad second-hand embarrassment.

So if I'm like watching a rom-com and there's like, a character does something that is comedically embarrassing for them, I get embarrassed for them.

And the bit in the audio book where the witches first watch the first play and keep interrupting with quips.

Oh my god, it's excruciating.

It was so good.

And like, you're all magrat in that scene.

You're all magrat, just going, oh god, oh god, oh god, oh god.

Who's that?

Who's that?

What's that?

What's he doing there?

He did it, we've seen him.

He's the murderer.

And then the best bit is like the audience just thought it was part of the play, like some sort of immersive bit.

Well, it's such a good introduction to Vitola as a character, who I don't know what his name is supposed to be a joke on.

And if I'm there for saying it.

I'm sure it's supposed to be something, but I don't know what it is either.

It's probably like a reference to somebody who was around in Shakespeare's time, because while it's, wait, shit, wait, it's Shakespeare.

Anyway, and it's a great introduction to him as a character, because you just have him being a good sport about it.

Yeah.

And not kicking up a fuss that these witches have come and been really, really rude to him and his play.

And that was another fun thing, I think, something that I really appreciate about Pratchett, and I think possibly is something that I think is more common.

Possibly I've just been reading too much fanfic where everybody is just super attractive all the time.

But the fact that Vitola is described, like, visually, like, it's not a flattering portrait at all.

I think his nose is described as it wouldn't have looked out of place in a bowl of strawberries.

It could have hidden strawberries, I think, is the actual...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, like, all of this, but also he has the most charismatic voice that all of the witches, including Granny Weatherwax, who is, like, notoriously a tough nut to crack, they're just enchanted.

Yeah.

They're just like, oh my god, this guy is the coolest ever, what the hell.

Yeah.

And I just, I love that Pratchett's so good at, like, just people, and also that people are...

I don't know, that he will write ugly characters who are nonetheless the most attractive people alive, and I just, I don't know, I fucking love that.

Yeah.

I love that.

Like, the fact that Maggara is described, like, as...

Decently plain at best, you know?

Well, not, like, classically attractive, and yet, to the full, she is...

Like an angel.

So attractive.

He's just instantly, instantly head over heels.

Yeah.

It was just, I don't know, it's just very refreshing.

Yeah.

I just find it very refreshing.

It makes it normal, almost.

Well, it's like, it's a bit like the Vimes, the Vimes and Lady Sibyl thing.

Yeah.

Of like, Vimes being like this really, like the scrungly, the scrungliest guard of all, except Nobby Nobs, because nobody can beat Nobby Nobs at that.

Yeah.

And then Lady Sibyl is just this mountain of a woman who's just, and they're just so good together.

It's like, yeah, perfect.

Excellent.

I love that.

Yep.

She could just pick him up by the scruff of the neck and carry him around and that would be totally fine.

And I'm, yeah, and he would be into that.

It's great.

Yeah.

And I love the scene also where they give them, they give Vettolo and his wife Tomtron.

And it's just sort of Granny very delicately being like, oh, have you, has your union borne fruit?

And them sort of quietly, sadly saying, oh, we had a little girl once.

And there's just, you know, in those six words or whatever it was, like a whole world of tragedy.

And it's just, I mean, but that's how the world is, is that everybody has their own thing and it's not really delved into because they are in this grand scheme of things, fairly minor characters, but.

And they're so, those, their family is so well drawn.

You get like, I mean, you get a lot more of Vittler, but you get like, I don't know, about three lines about his wife and that conversation.

But there's like, you know them, you know?

And they're three dimensional and they're interesting.

And you've got everything you need to think of them as just like being real actual people.

Yeah, who will do a great job of raising a kid and running a stage company and, you know, getting by?

And just this like delightful, like tiny site like site into their relationship.

And but it's so he's so like good at observing and then swiftly portraying, like complicated, interesting humanity.

It's just it's an absolute master class, honestly.

You know what?

Oh, what were you gonna say?

I was gonna say the like the character that I find really interesting that I'd like to spend a bit of time discussing is the Duchess, who is the Lady Macbeth, because I, I mean, I'm gonna need to go back and reread Macbeth, not only because we're doing it for our next episode, but I feel like she is quite a different character to Lady Macbeth, actually.

And the bit that's really interesting, obviously, is the moment when Granny does some headology on her, at the sort of climax.

Oh, shit, that's so good.

And, you know, oh, I've just broken down every wall on her head, and she's feeling, she's feeling the guilt and the hesitation and whatever that she-

And the regret and the pangs of conscience.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And then she just, and then the Duchess just kind of shrugs it off.

She's like, oh, right, I guess I'm evil.

Yeah.

What of it?

You can't stop me.

And now I'm gonna stab you about it.

Fuck off.

It's just, yeah, genuinely just such a great beat.

Because like the witches are standing there talking about it, like, and Annie Og's like, oh, that was a bit much.

And Maggret's like, I think that's the worst thing you could possibly do to anybody.

And Granny Weatherbikes is like, don't be ridiculous, girl.

It's like red hot pokers and like putting wires under people's nails and shit.

Use your imagination.

And then they're all just like, she's broken.

We don't have to think about her anymore.

And then she's just like, gods!

And just instantly like, yeah, no.

Gods come in so you can give me a spear and I can like throw it at Granny Weatherbikes.

Yeah, yeah.

Who like catches it, you know, like I think the narration is like a snake behind the head, like she catches it right behind the point.

And like, that's cool as hell.

But also, you know, it seems a little bit like, I feel like the duchess should have maybe got one there, you know, like she kind of earned it.

Oh, yeah.

I know that's a that is an absolutely brilliant moment because as well, it's like it's such a great it's a great Granny Weatherwax scene in that it shows off like, why she's so good at her job, why she's so good at what she does, how she thinks about the world as well.

Yeah, but also that she's like she's not all she can be beaten, actually, she's not right about everything all the time, which I think is a thing that I really love about her, like it would have been really easy for it to kind of be, you know, she's the most highly regarded of the leaders that they don't have.

It would have been easy to make her like a Mary Sue, yeah.

Yeah, and she's just never wrong about anything, but she's wrong about things all the time.

I love the highly regarded, the most highly regarded of the leaders we don't have because it's, it reminds me of like various things in religion, like, you know, the joke about you go to Ireland and they're like, oh, you're a Catholic or Protestant, you say, I'm an atheist, and they go, yeah, but the god you don't believe in, which one is he, you know?

And the whole like, we don't really have leaders, we just have like, learned people, it's like, that's what rabbis are, right?

Technically, there's no hierarchy, but, you know.

Well, the whole concept of first among equals generally.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, that's it, and it's such a like, good character introduction for her and also for witches as well.

I love that one of the first things we're told about them is that they don't get on with other witches, and then the whole book is them just all like mucking in together.

Like they have a lot of fights, but they do just like, you know, you're so annoying, but like, fuck it, we're gonna do the plot of Macbeth together, or we're gonna make the kingdom stay frozen in time for 15 years, so that the rightful heir can grow up and-

I don't think that like comes back again ever.

No, they're just like, yeah, you can fuck with time on the disk, it's fine, don't worry about it.

Well, really is the thing, they didn't break time, they stretched it, right?

Yes.

As a topologist, there is a difference.

The Clark guy works it out that there's been like a time shift, but that's it.

Or I guess people were like, were trying to work it, I think it is like briefly mentioned.

There is a really funny scene at the end where like other people from Lancre are trying to work out if the witches like owe them compensation, whether they've like lost 15 years or they've gained them.

It's like people talking about the trying to work out when the clocks go back.

Yeah.

Did you get an hour back or did you lose one?

What happened there?

But again, you're not breaking time, you're just moving it.

I've got to say, I feel like I now want to go and write the fan fiction where the the time monks, the history monks are like having to deal with the fallout of the witches having just moved Lanker about in time.

Lutzer is just sitting there like, I mean, I respect it, don't get me wrong, don't tell the abbot, but I respect it.

I like the bit where Terry Pratchett is a bit just like, well, look, these people don't have the same calendars and some of them don't agree with the idea of a week.

Oh my god, the footnote at the end of that bit is hilarious.

It's probably just like high distance of the margins with some creative, like accountancy, essentially, of time.

Also the throw away bit about the, oh, there's these guys whose calendars are counting down.

We don't know what it's counting down to, but it's probably not a good idea to be around to find out.

Well, that was that whole thing with the Mayan calendar that was supposed to reset in 2012.

I was like, oh, it's going to end, it's the apocalypse.

It's like, no, that's just resetting it.

It's fine.

It's that would be like counting down to New Year's and thinking the world's going to end.

But anyway, yes, it's a good bit.

It is a good bit.

This is the first Witches book we've done, and I kind of want to talk about the like, so how did you guys find the witches on this go round?

Like as this is our first like really like female led Pratchett, I think.

Yeah, that's my emotional support, Maiden Mother and Crone.

Like, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I just love these books.

I think the audiobooks are brilliant.

And that's all I can say.

Like I think, because I haven't read them before, I don't have like a, I guess a childhood preconceived memory of what I thought about them.

But I do like how different they are in how they approach presenting being a witch and that how that is described.

Like Granny always wears a pointy hat with her hat pins.

And on the other hand, you've got Magra who's like wearing loads of black and occult jewelry.

And like if she is like, if she could paint her nails black.

It's like going full new age with it.

Just full new wave, like just this, this witch and Nanny Oaks sort of somewhere in the middle, but always has a hip flask of, is it Brandy?

Or is she normally like, I'm maybe thinking of Witches of Broadway, she just constantly is basically just getting trollied.

I mean, she gets trollied quite a lot in this one.

She does get trollied quite a lot in this one as well.

I wonder if Witches in the Discworld ever become ghosts, because there's that line about like, in the beginning when the Verence becomes a ghost, they're talking about how like he's really vital, like he was, he was like 100% alive 100% of the time.

And this is sort of linked to him being somebody who lives 100% in the present.

And he's like focused in time, whereas people are sort of a fuzz of temporality.

They're like a smudge across the past, present, and future.

And the difference with witches being that they're somewhat aware of it.

Yeah.

But I also feel like the witches are people who are 100% alive 100% of the time.

Like particularly Naniol.

Like she is just having a good time basically.

Even when she's like in the torture dungeon, she's kind of having fun with it.

Because she's got the king's ghost there to like banter with.

Yeah.

And not only that, it's just like when the duchess comes in and she's chained up in the stocks effectively.

And she's like, oh, you're going to hurt her.

Well, you get on with it.

I've got things to do, you know.

And it's almost like reverse psychology of, oh, well, she's just got no fear.

But it's just this humorous bit where she and this ghost are having banter.

But then also he's like, I feel after that point, he's sort of doing just annoying things as a ghost, like putting extra salt in them.

I do enjoy his attempts to make the guy as uncomfortable as possible.

It's just like, just annoying little things.

And then it's meant, it's brought up when the ghosts leave.

And it's not only King Varrant, it's all the ghosts go on a holiday.

I love the, like, him making a deal with Nanny Og that you'll carry him out in one of the stones of the castle, since they're all bound to the stones of the castle.

But then she gets the, like, the princes in the tower ghosts in her laundry.

Which are like the kids from The Shining, right?

Yes, she's got the kids from The Shining.

The two twins are standing there in the corridor.

I'm like, this is a Shining reference.

I've not watched The Shining.

I'm like, this is a Shining reference.

They're so iconic that you just, you know, yeah.

See, that's funny because I'm just so not up on horror that I was immediately like, oh, yeah, the princess in the tower.

We've all seen them.

But the fact that they're twins and they're in a corridor is The Shining.

Right.

OK.

As I said, the thing about The Witches being like also a smudge in time was that was also produced one of my favourite lines in the whole thing, which is the, Granny Weatherworks didn't hold with looking at the future, but now she could feel the future looking back at her.

She didn't like its expression at all.

It's just like she could feel the shape of the future and it had daggers in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, you know, I think the first sight and second thoughts thing, which I guess isn't fully developed, you know, it's not developed here particularly, because I think that's more of a Tiffany thing where that's established.

But I think that does mean that the Witches are always kind of questioning things a little bit.

Yes.

Which means that they're slightly not they're not quite as focused.

I don't think they'd ever be quite as focused on in the present moment as as Verence is.

I don't think we ever get a Witch ghost.

Yeah.

Like in the whole series, I don't think we see one, which is kind of interesting.

But there must be wizard ghosts, like, because I think there's some members of the Unseen University who are ghosts and just haven't realized it yet, right?

Oh, yeah.

Well, there's the guy in sorcery who had the, there was an eight son who had eight sons.

He's haunting the staff that he gives the sorcerer because he doesn't want to die and he wants to control the kid and the Arch Chancellor's hat and all of that.

And the Arch Chancellor's hat is, I'm unclear if whether that's being haunted or if it's just kind of like, it's so much magic has imbued it that it's kind of alive and its own.

Anyway, that's a completely different Discworld book.

We don't need to talk about that here.

But yeah, just the, like, yeah, talking about the witches and them being such different people.

I really, really enjoyed all of their, like, their little relationships and the way they get on each other's nerves, but they're still trying to, like, in particular, I mean, like, the moment with the hot lead, where they're like, the other witches looked at Magrat with, like, unexpectedly impressed, like, yeah, we could, we could put some hot lead.

And Annie, and Granny's like, no, I don't, I, listen, I really want to, but I don't think we can, I don't think we can fill their bones with hot lead.

I don't think that will actually help.

Goodie Wemba had a recipe.

It's very simple.

What you do is you get some hot lead.

You get some lead.

Yeah.

There's another one like that that I've forgotten about where it's like, oh, there's a spell for making a sword out of a meteorite metal.

What you do is you get some meteorite and you make a sword out of it.

Yeah.

Draw the rest of the owl ass.

I do love though that even though that's Magra suggesting that, and yet she is effectively a staunch vegan, and not putting any animals, I don't want to put an eye of new into it because that's harmful to the new.

You can use tapioca, it's fine.

Can we use something else, please?

I love that Goodie Wemper was a research witch.

If I was going to be anything on the disk, that's probably what I would be.

Because being a research wizard, you've got to go to the university and do academia.

But being a research witch, you can just do science.

Well, if you could call science the like, oh, how long can a broomstick stay up where when a raven is like plucking out the bristles one by one?

I mean, did she write it down?

She sort of wrote it down because she had a black box with her.

She had a raven as trained to work as a black box.

So, you know, it's there for science.

Yeah, yeah.

Technically, it is still science and not just fucking around.

I love that that's we don't find out how she died until like halfway through the book.

Yeah.

And then it's just like, it's the dumbest shit you ever heard.

She died doing what she loved, mad science.

Like every time they're like, Vidi Wempa, may she rest in peace.

Like, yeah, it's like one word.

Yeah.

I'd forgotten about the, like, the nanny or granny weatherwax, like the things that they fall out about is always, it's kind of really interesting to me.

Like, I enjoyed the sort of like, granny weatherwax being kind of like, why are you making everything about sex?

Stop it, it's gross, stop.

And nanny Og being like, I love sex, I am gonna sing a song about a hedgehog not being able to be buggered all the time.

And it's just so interesting them having those, cause that's the thing that they fall out, they fall out about it twice, I think.

Like they're doing all right and having a conversation, but because Magrat and the Fool are kind of courting, it keeps bringing the, that kind of tension of like a granny where the wax is basically calling nanny a slut and nanny's like well, you...

I'm saying well you've put ideas in her head about like wanting to get married and it's like granny, can I introduce you to the words aromantic and asexual?

Yeah.

You might get some usage out of them.

I feel like yeah, cause granny's only, and I don't know if maybe it's in later books cause it's the only other one I've read.

I think, is it Witches Abroad where-

Does she and Rick Cullen have history, I think?

Yeah.

And they have a history and that's kind of brought out.

And then it kind of like, she kind of felt that she had more responsibility, if I'm remembering correctly, to being a witch in like the services of effectively not only being a witch but being a midwife and all that, like that kind of jazz that comes with it.

And she didn't want to be tied down to a man.

She wanted to be 100% witch, 0% wife.

Yeah, but not only that, like I feel Magritte's, like, in courting the fall, like there is a, I'm pretty sure there is a point in the book where she's thinking like, well, I like him, but at the same time, like, I also like being a witch and I don't want to give that up.

I know it's touched on in Witches Abroad, which is something I do, I did enjoy in that book.

I also enjoyed the kind of, the like, Magrat sort of thinking, like being instantly attracted to the fool, but also then being like, oh, but he capers and he jingles.

I don't know that I want to marry a man that jingles.

And Nanny Og's like, did you actually look at him though?

Did you like look at him?

Because he's faking?

Yeah.

Kind of being a pathetic little what's it?

Like he's, I think basically the first thing we ever see him do is accidentally say something very clever and then immediately cover it.

Like he's like, no, no, no, no, I'm stupid.

I am harmless and pathetic.

Oh, I had something to say about that.

Oh, yeah.

So he says something very clever.

And then he like has to walk it back and pretend to be an idiot.

And then he loses the next five tricks of whatever they're playing.

Quiver Mr.

Onion.

And it reminds me of a game that I have played as a kid with my family.

And it's called Nominations, although I think the more famously it's called Oh Hell.

And you have to bid on the amount of tricks that you think you're going to make and you get a bonus for making exactly that number.

So you have to sometimes deliberately lose.

And it is hard, right?

It can be very hard to do that.

So it's just, you know, he's he's actually he's very clever.

Exactly.

Yeah, I think it's the same game that Granny Weatherwax plays in, which is abroad, if I'm thinking when she plays against death.

And I think she oh she plays against somebody is playing against like these to win some money because they've lost all their money because they spent it all.

And they're playing Cripple Mr.

Onion and it's like a game of hydrology and a game of like smarts, which is quite nice.

Like, yeah, the fool is sort of putting on this facade, especially when you hear like kind of you think, oh, the the the guilds where.

I fucking love his tragic backstory.

And he's got such a tragic backstory where it's like all the apprentice fools had to learn all the jokes from like the books and they could hear the assassin's apprentices next door.

I mean, it's classic Pratchett, isn't it?

That being a fool should be an absolutely miserable thing.

Like that later on, there's somebody who's run away from the clown family to become an accountant, I think.

I forget which book that is.

Yes, that's making money.

And it's just like, yeah.

A clown-tent.

I can't claim credit for that joke that somebody on Tumblr got there before me, but that's...

But the other thing is that like, then when Varets eventually is king, you've got a king who has not been a king his whole life, who didn't grow up in royalty, which is part of what makes him different and like actually give a shit about trying to run the country, which people remark upon immediately.

He tries very, very hard.

Well, that's his whole thing, is persevering at stuff that he doesn't like and isn't good at because that's the job that's in front of him.

Yeah.

And that's the thing he has in common with Magrat, I think, is that she's trying very hard at being a witch.

And, you know, I do think the other witches give her a lot more credit in this than I remember.

I remember that.

There is a certain amount of, like, Magrat being, them kind of being like, oh, we can't, we can't be having with all of this silly, like, the jewellery and the-

They think a lot of that, but they don't say as much of it as I'd remembered.

That's true.

And, like, when she does do stuff well, they do tell her.

And it's very, like, I enjoyed the fact that she learned from the, one of the most hysterical bits in the book, which is them summoning a demon in Nanny's old laundry, that's never used because she has an army of terrified daughters-in-law that do all her laundry for her.

Oh, that's brilliant.

Like, she doesn't do anything.

She just has all these relations sort of waiting in her hands.

I don't like to think of her being a horrible mother-in-law, though, to be fair, because I've got a great mother-in-law.

So, like...

Well, no, I think it's like they kind of do it in a doting way.

Like, she kind of...

She's that to her daughters, but I think the daughter-in-law is, like, she doesn't remember their names, you know.

Yeah, she's awful in that way.

But in the same sense, like, it's just so funny that she's like, Oh, my Jason works here, all my friends work here.

And she's just got, like, sort of, she's just got this, like, spy network everywhere.

She's got an entire extended family.

In concert with Griebo being the father of every cat forever, you know.

Yeah.

I did enjoy where it's like Griebo turned up at the castle because he heard King Felbit had, like, a snowy, white, like, cat that he wanted to meet or something.

He was practicing his drudges in here, you know?

Yeah.

He was sort of the father of all cats in the local area.

And it's just the description of this cat that's so terrible.

And, like, granny being, like, I'm a bit worried because he hasn't been home for two nights.

And she still thinks of him as a, like, little fluffy kitten, even though he's a terror.

And I'm like, that is also spot on cat owner behaviour.

That is cat ownership, yeah.

Like, Gothmog is a tiny, fluffy kitten.

But, you know, even if we had a horrible old tomcat, and, you know, I would still probably be like, that's my baby.

I do.

That's another thing that I think that makes the fool look a lot, like, cooler in contrast.

Oh my god, the thing when Griebo is on his head and he's just walking around, that was another of my Laugh Out Loud moments, like...

And, like, the fact that he thought to get chain mail first, he's just really smart about it.

And then Griebo is, like, really confused by him because he talks to him like Nanny Og does.

Well, he talks to him like a person.

Because, like, oh, you're a very cute...

In a way.

Yeah.

you're an adorable-

you're an adorable pusscat because you haven't been able to, like, maul me.

I'm not gonna be disabused of this notion.

We're just gonna have a great time getting lost in the forest.

And he's sort of is bargaining with him, like, Oh, well, you're probably better at finding your way home than I am.

Why don't I let you down and you go find a way home and I'll follow you to civilization?

Which is like how I talk to the cat sometimes, you know?

She's just a little guy.

It's good.

It's good.

Guys, what fun bits do we want to talk about this book?

Because I feel there's like-

there should be many.

I mean, Gaslight Gatekeeper Boss is the duchess, right?

Instantly, yeah.

Well, we have three.

We have three witches.

We've got a-

what is Gaslight Gatekeeper Boss, if not the modern maiden mother, Chrome?

It's true.

It's true.

Yeah, that is true.

Magrat isn't girl boss yet, I feel.

No, she's got potential girl boss energy.

Which we see come to, you know, come into its own in the next few books.

Yeah.

I have a fun question.

I don't know if you guys have watched Agatha All Alive.

I have not.

I have watched it, yeah, on Disney Plus.

I have.

So for context, Eli, there's like a magical witch's road in Agatha All Alive where they have many trials in order.

And at the end, they receive their, what is it?

Their one true, their greatest wish or anything.

And I was just wondering, do we think Granny Weatherwax, Nanny Og, and Magrat, how would they face?

Would they survive the road?

Would they survive the road?

Oh, come on, they see through, I don't think Magrat sees through Agatha instantly, but I think Granny and Nanny are both instantly like, this is a con artist and a bullshitter.

And, um, this is all nonsense and we can't be having with it.

I think they let her think that she's getting away with it.

They put a con on her.

Yeah, and...

Yeah, and they're just, but it turns out all along, they were just like, well, we knew this wasn't real, and we also knew that you were just trying to get us to, like, try and kill you so that you could absorb our power.

Sorry, there's a massive spoiler for Agatha all along there.

I'm assuming everybody listening that wants to watch it has already watched it.

Eli hasn't watched it yet.

Eli is not going to.

Fair enough.

Sorry.

To be fair, I am now watching Marvel again because Deadpool and Wolverine is officially Marvel and not Fox, but...

But there's one exception to the rule made over many years.

I thought it was, yeah, it's just because it's another, like, yeah, female-led TV show.

I think they'd find The Potion's Witch quite funny.

I think she's too cool to be Magrat, but it's also very much like, this is your new age nonsense.

We want none of this.

She's actually, I tell you, she's probably more anagramer, anagrammatica, whichever.

She comes up later.

There's another, they keep getting this thing where the younger witches keep trying to be like new age and newfangled and the older witches are like, this is bullshit, actually.

Granny Weatherwax is like the consumer professional, who's just like, these are the tools of the trade.

You got to have your big hat.

You got to have your hat pins.

They are physically useful because you can use them to stab people.

Yeah.

And like anything, anything is a magic thing if you, if you like say it with enough conviction, which is also a very theatre thing.

Now I think about it.

Yes, but it's also-

It is actually, that is a very good point.

The Witches in Anansi Boys, where they're like, well, we've got, we've got like some herbs, right?

Yes, that'll do.

We've got like mixers.

Yeah, it is just like, you know-

The little penguin candles.

It's all in your head, which is, can either be terrifying or tremendously powerful.

Yeah.

And it's just exactly the same thing as a theatre.

Like the-

I did like the way how Granny Weatherwax describes it, like the magic of the theatre.

It is a magic, like she considers it to be a magic that she can't control.

Yeah, she can't, she doesn't have a sort of facility with.

She doesn't have the facility, but it is a magic.

It is a hard magic system, effectively, in the theatre.

Well, it makes death visible, right?

As you said.

I've got to say, can I just say, I love the fact that Tom John's superpower is just, I will perform a speech from a fantasy Shakespeare play that will make whatever, everybody that's around us either calm down or fall in love with me.

And while we're waiting for that effect to wear off, we can just sneak away and people will like not rob us or like kill us in this bar fight.

Except for that one guy who gets taken out by the milk jug.

Yes.

Which is really funny.

They're all like, and I love how the other actors are like, nervous like, did you hear the speech?

And he's like, well, yeah, it was fine.

But like, I'm a practical man.

I want your money.

It's just like, excuse me, did you not hear the magic of the theatre?

And the fact that like, it's kind of like Carrot, like in the sense of Carrot is very charismatic.

And I know that the reason for like Captain Carrot being able to disarm a fight is slightly different in this wider universe.

But he does do the thing of I'm going to go in and like appeal to your non-existent finer feelings.

And like, he's sitting there like, oh, oh, and the description of it is like, he's got his hands in his pockets, he's looking down, he's slightly smiling, as Tom John reels off this speech from act two, scene three.

And then like you say, he probably doesn't do anything.

So the witch is like, yeah, we'll just chuck a milk jug at him.

And then, you know, crap on.

The repeated bit of people from the theatre, knowing that Tom John's going to fix it and like just stepping back and watching him happen to other people.

But it's just a really funny repeated bit.

Because of the gifts that the witches gave him.

I do like, you know, he's got a good memory.

Like that's what, you know, and he makes friends easily and he's what he is, whatever he thinks he should be.

And that's what his character is.

He's formed up of those three, you know, characteristics.

But it's a lot of fun.

It's very well done.

Yeah.

Well, who would be the only human in the Muppets' adaptation of this book?

The Fool.

Yeah, I like that.

He's the most Muppet-like character in the whole thing, and therefore it's only right that he should be human while everybody else is a Muppet.

What about, I mean, death's not human, I guess.

So because like then the answer would always have to be death for every Death's World novel, and that's kind of boring.

I think death gets a pass as well.

Or maybe you have the death of, maybe you have the death of Muppets.

Maybe, yeah, King Farrance has the ghost as the only human.

He's not in it enough, I feel, to warrant that.

Tom John?

Tom John is the only human.

He's a very charismatic, yeah, I could see that.

He's doing the, he's the Jim Hawkins.

Well, because I feel like Comet and Miss Piggy, as The Fool and Magrat is quite funny also.

I don't know, the thing is that Miss Piggy is not capable of having low self-esteem.

I think if Miss Piggy is anyone, Miss Piggy, Miss Piggy is one of, she's either the Duchess or she's one of the older witches, I think.

I mean, she is, like, Nanny Og is very Miss Piggy, I feel.

Hmm.

Yeah, I could see that.

Unfortunately, that means Comet isn't in this because we never meet any of her husbands.

Yeah, this is true.

I'm just thinking of, like, some student listening to this podcast because they've been assigned Macbeth for their school, like, GCSE.

We're being very helpful.

And having them to listen to us say sentences like, yeah, Nanny Og is very Miss Piggy.

Sorry.

Anonymous thing.

I tell you, another English teacher friend of mine has said that they think this is good, this is good listening for their students.

Oh my goodness.

That amuses me greatly.

I think, I mean, there's so much of, like, teaching that sucks the joy out of it.

If we can bring some of that back, then good.

Yeah.

You know, we're on a good roll.

We didn't actually say Gaslight Gatekeep Girlboss.

We didn't.

We did not actually make a discovery.

I think the fool, if we go Man's Play Manipulate male wife, the fool is clearly male wife.

Yes.

I love that he does find his spine at the end.

I think that's really, I really like that.

It's actually him who's like, no, I saw it actually.

I did see the murder and I am not going to let this slide.

Is it ever made clear if that's true or not?

Yeah, no, I think it is.

It is true.

I think it's, because they, from the very beginning, the duke keeps saying he thought he saw someone.

And there is a moment where the fool, they're actually asking the fool about it.

And the fool says, I definitely didn't see you.

And then says something that is very clearly, the only somebody who was there could have said.

I missed that.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

And then there's a whole bit about, well, you're not going to tell anybody, obviously you're not going to tell anybody about this.

You know, there's a bit of a back and forth about that.

But yeah, I think he did.

He did see it.

Yeah.

Fair enough.

Because like, it's equally bold.

Like, it doesn't matter really because it's, you know, but or at least I would say it doesn't matter.

But yeah, yeah.

But then I'm thinking of the ending of the first episode of Black Sails, which I will not spoil for anybody who is listening, because you should watch that show.

Spoiler, like trigger warnings with the caveat of trigger warnings.

But that's a good show.

I do also like that the ghost tries to tell them that he was, you know, he was obviously there and saw it.

I was like, I don't think you can be the witness for the prosecution.

I think that's the Duchess is just like instantly like, I feel like this is a conflict of interest, just like, which is kind of entertaining.

Yeah, I don't, I genuinely don't know.

I don't think anybody really, like, is the Duke gaslighting himself?

Interesting.

He might be.

I guess it's like when he has his, his like, not his breakdowns, but his sort of descent into his madness of trying to, and I guess it goes, it gets feeds back into the idea that like, the play at the end is rewriting history and the play itself sort of rebels against that.

And he's struggling to rewrite his own history in his head.

Because as we mentioned, like his hands, and he's constantly talking about like the blood on his hands, about the murder and he's like, I wasn't there.

I wasn't there.

I was at the top of the stairs.

It wasn't me.

And it was self-defense and it was just sort of this try to rewrite itself.

And I love that the play is trying to be written as Macbeth.

I enjoyed the kind of the whole thing about the sleets of inspiration particles, which is another really fun bit, is the repeated like, he's got Laurel and Hardy in his head at one point, or like he's writing Three Stooges Dialogue.

He's got Charlie Chaplin.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll tell you what made me laugh quite a lot is when Tom John is going through all the discarded pieces of paper.

Where Joel's trying to get the play to work.

And it's Panto Dialogue.

Yeah.

I like the idea that, like, you know, Laurel and Hardy are some deeper, immutable truth about stage and the nature of comedy and storytelling that just emerge in every reality.

And like, we call them Laurel and Hardy, but they are some sort of deeper entity that exists on another plane and are presenting themselves to, well, like, you know, subconsciously.

Yeah.

That's very entertaining to me.

And the fact that, like, those ideas come through in streaks in its mind.

Well, you gotta have one short, you gotta have one short, fat one and one tall, thin one.

And then you're after the races.

That's Laurel and Hardy, baby.

Except I don't think, I think they were both quite tall, so.

It is quite a nice, like, again, let's come back to Terry Pratchett's brilliant way with the English language.

Just, it's such a literative language.

Which is, like, it sounds good.

It's always just so sharp and so funny.

And so, it hits it right, like, on the nose to the point, nail on head, but.

Speaking of the, we're talking about the duke's madness, the, like, he was so far around the twist you could use him to uncork wine bottles.

I love that.

Yeah.

Like, another line like that that made me laugh out loud was, they're talking about Verence at the end, the witches are talking about him, and then they're saying, like, oh, you know, he's got his head screwed on straight, and then he goes, even if it is against the thread, which just, like, took me out.

I love that.

What a great phrase.

But it's such a good, like, alliterative use of language to get exactly what you want to say, but it's also humorous, which I think is just such a joy finding practice writing as an adult and going, like, as a kid, I would have found a lot of the humor, the slapstick humor.

I guess my only sort of point of comparison is that I watch a lot of Black Hat are growing up.

And I think it's a solid point of comparison, honestly.

Which is like, you know, it's one of the things it is, it is rated to 15 and it has got quite a lot of innuendo, quite a lot of like, quite dark.

More sort of like dry absurdist humor, as well.

Dry absurdist humor, which, you know, first time I watched it, I think I was like, 11?

I don't know, watching like Black Hat or two, I just had no idea what was like going, like what it was talking about, but I love the slapstick humor, or even I actually know better, A Thin Blue Line.

I don't know if you ever watched that.

No.

And it's like, it's same with Rowan Atkinson.

It's the same guy who wrote Blackadder.

It is, there is so much innuendo and double entendre in it.

But I just love the slapstick humor.

And then you watch it back as an adult going, I let my kid watch this?

Oh, I'm sorry, like, to my parents, let me watch this.

But like, as a kid, you just don't pick up on it.

You just find it funny that he's got no biscuits and he's just saying the one hobnob slightly, like, amusingly.

Ha ha, isn't that funny?

I think Pratchett's really good for that because I think they have almost infinite reread value.

Because you will always see something you didn't notice before.

And like, the more you, the wider you read, the more you see as well.

I mean, or not just read, but like, the more films you watch or the more, like, there was definitely, I didn't get most of the theatre references, like the theatre or the stage references the first time I read this.

I had a thought about thinking about you pick something else up every time.

So I'm just thinking, what would I go back and pay attention to?

Like what, you know, the fact that Tom John is the biological son of the fool, right?

And he has grown up learning by rote the ways to act and like, you know, he's, he's in some way spiritually carrying on the legacy of like, fooling.

Although to be fair, he inherits that more from his actual dad, Vittola, than, than, you know, his, like his biological dad.

Yeah.

But like, I'd want to go back and look for stuff that was in there that would, you know, and pay attention to like, you know, signs that the duchess really was never, ever gonna, you know, be ashamed of herself or...

Yeah.

One of the other things that I noticed on this time was the, so the, I think, I think it's probably just a funny coincidence, but this is a book that has a lot of throwaway lines that turn into novels later.

So Carrot is in this.

The idea of a dwarf, that dwarves raising a human changeling and they didn't realize until he started banging his head on the tunnel walls.

You know, or the...

Looking like a Dorito, yeah.

There's a, there's a Phantom of the Opera joke.

Leonard of Quirm is the guy that designed the, the wave, the wave set.

That made me very happy that it was...

He's not in Vettinari's attic yet.

He's just in a street and the mad artificers.

Like...

Sort of early bird cameos, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, there's a few things where it's like, and yeah, they're mentioning the Phantom of the Opera.

There's a few things that like, like to go on to be, like other books or like the 12 O'clock on Allswell joke that's saying, God's, God's, like...

But I just think it's very funny when this is the book that has the, the introduction of the idea that inspiration is a particle that like, flies through the universe until it bounds off a willing head kind of thing.

Do you know if Terry Pratchett ever played D&D?

It would not have surprised me at all if he played D&D.

I don't know when Points of Inspiration became a thing.

Oh, that's a good point.

TTRPGs.

It just reminded me.

But like, you know, he's got the same thing of like, you know, particles of stuff that's not stuff.

Yeah.

He's already gone like, you know, ground, ground down the universe and find me one atom of truth, justice, mercy.

Although this is before Hogfather.

Okay, you know, this was published before like, Guards, Guards and all of that.

So I'm reading how I've been reading the books.

I've been reading them in like, group order.

So I sort of go through, which I think is a pretty solid way of doing it.

Death novels and then like, now the witches books and then I'm like, oh, they're just, they're all so good.

Is this the book where we get introduced to the, the Thieves Guild?

Yes, and the organized crime.

I think we, I think it get, Mike mentioned earlier.

It is explained.

Yeah.

But this is the one where I think it's like, they talk about the like, the thief insurance.

It's fleshed out and the chits and everything.

And the fact that like, yeah, you can own these.

Which is so good.

It's sort of just thought about reducing crime.

It's basically insurance, get your robbing in early.

We can do you a GBH on the cheap, get it out of the way, get it out of the way at the start of the year.

And then you can walk around knowing you're not gonna be home.

It's such a good, such a good idea.

Yeah, it's such a good concept.

It might also be one of the-

It's such a good understanding of like, human nature.

Yeah, yeah.

Also, like one of the earliest examples of a bar fight being started because somebody used the M word around the librarian.

Yes.

Which is always a good time.

And the fact that like, I do enjoy in these books where the librarian's brought up, because I'm reading these out of order.

And so I was like, oh, this is a wrong time.

It's a librarian.

But like in the audiobooks, Bill Nye pops up and gives the backstory of like, oh, well, the librarian had a magical accident, but then realized having like, having a super-

Three times the reach.

Three times the reach and the twice the strength and being able to hold books with his feet actually came quite handy as a job of the librarian.

So it just decided to stay as is.

And it's just sort of this offhand comment in the footnotes.

I mean, I do all the footnotes.

They're so good.

It's something I think you see it happen in one of the Rinse Wind books.

It's when the one, the octavo tries to escape.

I've got the actual quote here of another bit that made me laugh out loud.

And it's when the librarian smacks the guy, which I love to see happen.

Yeah.

An arm like a couple of broom handles strung together with elastic and covered with red fur, unfolded itself in a complicated motion and smacked him across the jaw so hard that he rose several inches in the air and landed on the table.

I just love to imagine like what that complicated motion might be and just end it with a slap.

It's so funny.

But it's such a...

He's got such a cinematic imagination, hasn't he?

Yeah, exactly.

You can see this happening.

You can...

It's like the bit where the...

I can visualise it so easily.

Where the guy gets thrown out of the bar and...

It's not actually that many words.

Yeah, yeah.

He's just incredible.

And you get this incredibly visual like...

And you can see he's like...

There's a lot of moments where you can see he's like quite a cinematic thinker, but it would be really easy for that to be clunky and it just never is with him.

It's in all the right places.

I tell you what, it's one of those books where part of me thinks I'm like, I'm surprised that...

And maybe it is on like an exam board, but I feel some of his books that there's so much you can read into it, but it's also a really accessible read.

It's really, really accessible.

It's not like books where...

Obviously, I know we've read classics on the podcast, but sometimes when you're at school and you're reading classics that you don't necessarily want to read or you don't vibe with, I think if I had to read Wuthering Heights or Jane Eyre at school, I'd be like, okay, great.

I found my old book review log book the other day.

Oh, wow.

I've got to dig it out because there's probably some qualities.

I know actually I reread it and it was something about I read Animal Farm and read it completely straight.

I didn't realize it was a whole allegory.

So I was like, well, there was a farm and then there's some pigs on this farm.

But I feel with these books, it gives a way for people to talk about them and think about those deeper themes and meanings, but it's just so accessible because his language is such a quality of language, his illiterative use of language, it's so descriptive.

I feel like a lot of the books that get set for study at GCSE, they're not joyful and I'm going to sound like such a wank when I say this, but it makes it so much harder to...

I mean, even I did Much Ado and there's humour in that, but also the way that you study them is sort of...

I don't think much of a...

You don't get to focus on the fact that these are works of art that you can appreciate, as well as picking a part to look at the themes.

And I think that's what's...

I'd like you to read The Great Gatsby, which is...

I like it, I really do, I'd like to do it for the podcast, but it is a joyless book in a lot of ways.

And I think it's just sort of, it's sad, because it must put people...

It would definitely put me reading classics, to be honest.

I like reading Austin, but I like reading Pride and Prejudice, and that was it.

But they get so much better when you can look at other stuff that they've influenced and go, oh, so that thing in Pratchett was a reference, or something, like the whole play within a play, and that's like a handbook.

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, but one of the things I love about Pratchett is that he's turned the whole world into a Discworld book.

You know that feeling when you're reading a Discworld and you suddenly get a reference that you never got before, or you realize a joke that he was making that you hadn't, and you kind of shake your fist at the heavens and go, Pratchett!

But like, the world is that now.

You know what I mean?

It works in reverse.

You wander out into the world and you find out a new thing, and suddenly you go, oh my god, Pratchett!

Oh my god, Terry, what the hell?

You know?

And the whole world is like that now.

Sad for a moment.

Like, can you imagine the fun he would have had with some of the stuff that's happened since he died?

It's been like 10 years or something, right?

Yeah.

Oh, don't say that.

That's awful.

I know, right?

Yeah, but we just have to make the jokes for him.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I tell you what, this is another classic us doing a Pratchett, and I think most of this episode has us just been quoting our favourite bits back and forth.

I mean, it wouldn't be us reviewing a Pratchett book if we just don't talk about our favourite quotes and our favourite bits that make me laugh.

Like, yeah, this book is sort of the amount of times I like listening to this book, and I just go what?

Or like my face would just be like, just belly laugh out loud.

It is not often that I read something that makes me laugh out loud.

Yeah.

Whether that's on the internet or in a book or whatever.

But yeah, like, yeah, it's such a joyous read.

Like, if you've got this all through the episode and you're thinking, I haven't read Aperture or you haven't read any of The Witch's books, just you have joy ahead of you.

Get on that.

Yeah.

Just just just get on the get on the train, get on the get on the disco train and ride it like, oh, it's so good.

I've just I love reading it as an adult and finding this joy as an adult of a new book series that I hadn't read before because, you know, I read the same three books on repeat.

All the same three series on repeat.

And I think I genuinely think...

Calling Wheel of Time a book is...

Yeah, it's basically one very long book that I basically just read on loop.

Like I'd finish and I go, oh, time is a wheel.

Time is a wheel.

And so is your reading.

So is my reading.

Yeah, it's basically just like, oh, we're going through Wheel of Time.

And then it's like, oh, Bram Sandson, and we'll go back to Wheel of Time again, and Bram Sandson, and Occasion would just a bit like...

I feel Discworld is one of those books now where I have the audio books and I will like, oh, I don't want to listen to it.

I'll listen to another part.

I'll just put Discworld on.

And I'm starting to work my way through them.

But then if like, I do think The Witch's books will become like comfort novels because they are just so...

Oh, the audio books are so good.

I just keep, I know I keep saying the same thing.

I mean, my last comment on this before we jump on to the like, you know, the closing remarks of our general podcast, What's It?

But the thing is that the them being comfort reads, they're really funny, but they're also kind.

Yes.

Which I think is a thing that a lot of humor, it's really easy for something funny to lack that.

And it's really common for things that are written to be funny to lack that.

But I think it's very, very rare in Pratchett, particularly once he really gets going, that the humor feels mean.

It almost never, I think Color of Magic has a bit of that.

But they're so kind.

They're so interested in people and giving grace to all their flaws, you know?

They're interested in and but not condemning of the various little weirdnesses and the fact that the witches can't stop arguing and you know, I just yeah, it's rare and I love it.

Yes, we really should ask what our darling dear, our darling dear Gothmog would rate this.

I mean, it's got a cat in it.

It's got a cat, it's got murder, it's got malice.

It's literal backstabbing.

It's got granny stealing food from a feast.

Yeah, bringing home like half a side of ham and three bottles of fizzy wine or something.

Yeah.

Tell me the places she's not invited to, like.

The cat, listen, also the cat, the actual cat is both extremely cat like and plot relevant.

Like the plot doesn't happen without Griebo getting stuck in the castle.

Like he is vital to the mechanics of the story.

And he does not compromise one moment on violence.

Right?

Exactly.

He does his level best at all times.

He chooses violence every single moment of every single day.

I think it's a 10.

I think this is solidly, I think it's a 10.

I think it's a 10.

So that's what Tamarare, Gideon and this.

And Liriel.

I think Liriel got a high score as well.

It was either Liriel or Abhorson.

Yeah.

I think, yeah, but...

So before we end, is there anything else that you've been reading at the moment that you want to like share with the group or watching or consuming?

I read, this is more relevant to like my work life than my not work life, but I work in software.

And I read the URL is grugbrain.dev.

And it's hilarious.

And it is, I just, if you work with computers or in software at all, go and read it.

And it's written by the guy who built HTML, which is a front end.

It's a JavaScript library for, you know, making your HTML better.

But it's just, it's beautiful.

And like this, I laughed out loud a couple of times reading it.

So that's what that's been rattling around in my head recently.

I have been, I have been hijacked by an old, what do you call it?

Obsession, an old, an old phantom obsession.

I am all over the Star Wars right now.

So I have been reading Black Cat's entire backlog on AO3.

Sometimes re-reading, there were multiple novel length, incredible fanfic that she's written that I've just been like, what if I just re-read this again?

What if I finished it and then immediately started it again from the beginning?

That's how good it is kind of shit.

Currently they have put a much beloved boy in a time loop and he is suffering.

He's suffering so much.

And I am also suffering because there are only updates every Tuesday.

Oh no.

It's like back in the olden days.

I'm sitting there like, which, my boy is in the time loop, but am I not also in the time loop?

Where every week I'm like, where is my, where is the chapter?

Where's my boy?

It's very good.

It's very, very good.

Any Star Wars fans out there, I heartily recommend go read as much Black Cat as you can get your eyeballs on.

It's very, very good.

But yes, I'm all, all Star Wars fanfic all the time at the moment.

How about you?

Anything else?

I've read an actual, but well, I'm very, I continue to read books.

On this podcast, an actual book.

I know.

I've like an actual book of choice because basically the Book 12, The Wheel of Time, The Tales of Midnight, I always have trouble with because basically parents character has a lot of catching up to do, and I really struggle reading parents characters like chapters because he just, he just moat, moat, moat, moat, moat, which I know is central to his character.

But I'm like, please give me my boy Matt.

So I on, when was it?

It was like early this week.

I was because I've, as you can probably hear, dear listeners, and I apologize for my gravity voice, have had a cold.

So I've been forced to do no sport and no socializing, cause you know, we live through a pandemic.

I'm a good child of the pandemic and don't go out when I have a cold.

And I was like, you know what I'm gonna do?

I've now got a little fake electric fire.

So I put my little fake electric fire on and some calming music.

I'm gonna read an actual book.

And I was like, oh, this is quite nice.

I read a book for like three hours in one go.

For three consecutive nights, guys.

I'm like, who am I?

So there's that.

And I've also been watching lots of hamster care videos because my little hamster arrived today.

Yes, the baby.

He's making a nest.

The sweet boy.

He's very fluffy.

And I'm probably going to eventually put on my my Bookstagram account.

It will become a Bookstagram slash hamster account at this rate.

It's only right.

If anyone is thinking of getting a hamster, I'm just going to do my public service announcement here.

Go and watch.

There's a couple of YouTubers, but mainly Victoria Rachel.

Lots of very good hamster care tips.

Don't go and buy a pet shop hamster cage.

They need like a lot more space than you think they do and a lot more stuff than you think they do.

So they have happy little lives and they can make burrows and chew on things and all this good stuff.

Engage in hamsterly activities.

And what Lottie's not saying is that she built hers herself.

Oh, yeah.

So I built mine.

So that's what most people do.

It's incredible.

They build the cage out of IKEA furniture.

There are also YouTube videos on this as well.

Like, it's not like, oh my god, did you know I didn't design it myself.

I just followed a YouTube tutorial.

And there's like loads of useful stuff on Etsy.

So you can get all your bits and bobs on Etsy.

There's one that I've earmarked for like later, where it's like a little, somebody's laser cut the shape of a hobbit house onto wood.

I made it into a little hamster home.

Oh, brilliant.

Oh, that's delightful.

You know what this is?

This is great fodder for like gift lists.

Like this is stuff that you asked me before.

I'm basically aware now that all of my gifts for the next forever will be hamster related, but that's okay.

I love that I could tell that you were saying that while looking at the hamster.

Yeah, yes, you can hear me getting quieter and quieter.

As he's making a tiny, tiny, tiny nest, guys.

He took a seed from me earlier and I was like, my actual heart, the adoption lady, because adopts don't shop, gave me a tiny toothbrush so you can brush his tiny, tiny, tiny fur.

So we're pleased to be announcing the spinoff of this podcast, teaching my hamster to do a trans to algebra.

I'm sure, I'm sure, well, he loved that.

He's already built a tunnel.

You heard he hit first, folks.

You might teach my hamster engineering.

I teach my hamster structural engineering.

Yes.

Guys, we need to say what we're reading next.

Does anyone have this?

Do we actually remember?

We got it wrong last time.

It's Macbeth.

I said it like twice already.

It's Macbeth.

We're doing a Scottish play.

I'm going to find out.

More murder, more stabbing, more blood.

More witches, more ghosts.

Spooky, spooky.

But yes, if you'd like to listen to us discuss the Scottish play that we will not mention, aka mentioning the Blackadder reference and all the other references, please tune in next week.

And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a like or a review on your podcast platform.

It means the world to us.

It means more listeners like you can find our podcast and we can spread the joy of books and just finding more awesome listeners, which is just wonderful when people send in us emails.

And we will get back to you in six to 12 business months.

We will eventually get back.

We're not human disasters at all, we promise.

But we do take note.

I did laundry today.

They make our hearts and souls sing with joy.

I got up in the morning.

I got out of bed.

Everybody point and clap.

Well done.

10 out of 10.

And I'm sure the listeners are clapping as well.

All right.

Thank you very much for listening.

If you also want to say well done to Em for getting out of bed, you can email us, teachingmycattoread at gmail.com or send us a DM on our socials.

So say hello, send us a message and recommend us some books to read.

Big virtual hugs and we will see you next time.

Bye.