#51 Women's Prize for Fiction 2021

Sarah K and Jenny have spent the last three months reading all the short listed Women's Prize for Fiction books. We chat through each of the nominees, reveal our favourites and least favourites and predict the winner.  The episode transcript should be accessible from within your podcasting app or directly from Buzzsprout.

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Books mentioned:
The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett
Piranesi by Susannah Clarke
Unsettled Ground by Claire Fuller
Transcendent Kingdom by Yaa Gyasi
How the One Armed Sister Sweeps Her House by Cherie Jones
No One Is Talking About This by Patricia Lockwood
The Trouble with Goats and Sheep by Joanna Cannon
Passing by Nella Larson
Lanny by Max Porter
Detransition, Baby by Torrey Peters

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Transcript

00:00:16 JENNY

Hello, welcome to the Bookcast Club, a podcast by four book-fondling fanatics. I'm Jenny, she's Sarah, and today we will be discussing the Women Prize for fiction, shortlist and predicting our winner. 

But first, how are you Sarah? How are you doing?

00:00:33 SARAH

I'm pretty well. I'm pretty tired. The euros are on at the moment so we're a Euros family, I found out this year. Well I got interested in it, so a lot of late nights at the moment watching penalty shootouts.

00:00:46 JENNY

Oh yeah, 'cause you're an hour behind, aren't you so?

00:00:50 SARAH

An hour ahead, so it finishes at midnight for us if there's a penalty shootout.

00:00:51 JENNY

Hour ahead, sorry yes. Like no, not penalties! Yeah, it’s the final tonight.

00:01:00 SARAH

Yeah, we are recording on the day of the final, so it's Italy versus England tonight so we've got some friends coming around to watch.

00:01:06 JENNY

Ah nice, yeah, who you dare I ask who you supporting?

00:01:11 SARAH

I'm not really supporting anyone… well, I actually predicted Italy to win from the beginning, not to brag, but I did. So I'm very pleased that they're in the final.

My partner Patrick has a really good friend who's English and he is sort of half wanting them to win but half doesn't. 

00:01:29 JENNY

I think that that's probably speaks for a lot of people in England, yeah?

00:01:30 SARAH

Right? He’s like tired, fatigued expat. [laughs]

00:01:38 JENNY

Yeah, well, I'm Welsh so I do support England when they're playing, but let's just say that English fans can be insufferable at the best of times, so I dread to think what it's going to be like if they actually win something.

Yeah, yes, I'm sure we'll be watching that tonight. Can't wait.

00:02:12 SARAH

How are you going though? What's happening with you?

00:02:14 JENNY

Yeah, and I'm good we are kind of going back to normal in the UK. I kind of hate to say that really it just seems like a bit of a free for all.

Technically, I've been working from home since this all began, and technically we can go back into the office next month, which I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that so yeah, it's back to this weird feeling of not really knowing if I really want to join in with the rest of the world.

So yeah, it's a funny old time.

00:02:46 SARAH

Yeah, I don't know if you've seen the Dutch news, but our cases have absolutely blown up in the last like 7 days.

They sort of released some restrictions, waited a couple of days, were like, oh, this is great, released some more restrictions, waited a couple more days, release some more, and now we have…I think we've got more cases now than we had in December, which is the peak of our third wave, so. [laughs]

00:03:05 JENNY

It's like that in the UK as well, but I think they've reached the point they were like, well, everybody is pretty much vaccinated now, so off you go.

So yeah, time will tell.

00:03:14 SARAH

Let's talk about the Women’s Prize.

00:03:16 JENNY

I mean, I've certainly spent the last like 3 months reading. I don't know when they announced the shortlist, but I thought I'm going to do it this year.

00:03:26 SARAH

I think you did very well. I'm impressed that you read the whole shortlist. I think I'd read 3 of it. Three of the shortlist, so I only had to read three. 

00:03:27 JENNY

Thank you, thank you.

Yeah no. I hadn't read any. So yeah, I really had to get on it and I thought we were recording this yesterday. So Friday night I was like frantically trying to finish Piranesi? Piranisi? However you say it and yeah, and then I found out we checked my calendar and we were not recording [laughs]

Never mind. I've been able to sit on it and think.

00:03:56 SARAH

Alright, so the Women's Prize is a UK literary prize. It is for women writers, whether or not it's for non-binary writers. They kind of flounder about that. But, yeah, six books on the shortlist. The winner is being announced in September, I believe. And this year Bernadine Evaristo is the chair, which is exciting.

00:04:18 JENNY

So I looked a little bit into what the judging criteria was so that we could kind of, I guess, gauge who we think might win based on what the judges have said so.

Any woman writing in English, whatever their nationality or country of residence or age or subject matter, is eligible, and novels must be published in the UK between the 1st of April in the year the prize calls for entries which would have been last April. And 31st of March the following year, but the prize is announced so that would have been this March.

So the judges are given like a key criteria for the prize which they've listed as accessibility, originality, and excellence in writing by women. And they're asked to forget about any reviews they might have, any publicity, the budget that the book might have, the author's reputation and any idea of who might “deserve” the prize. I mean, we always have these conversations, don't we like oh, when someone says won it before, so I think they have to try and discount that sort of thing.

And to simply on the basis of novels that inspire them, move them or make them think. But they've got a little video on the website actually interviewing all the judges and they kind of have alluded to what they're looking for in a book, so they mention: originality, unusual storytelling, and this is this is Bernadine Evaristo actually. So she said originality, unusual storytelling or an unusual perspective. A book that stays with you. Strong characterization.

And a book that speaks to women as we are right now. Or so I think that I don't know how official that judging criteria is. They all individually said something.

00:06:18 SARAH

That's interesting.

00:06:19 JENNY

Yeah, as we go through this, I thought we could bear them in mind. We're going to run through them alphabetically aren't we just for ease?

00:06:29 SARAH

Let's do it.

The six books are THE VANISHING HALF by Britt Bennett, PIRANESI by Susanna Clarke. UNSETTLED GROUND by Claire Fuller, TRANSCENDENT KINGDOM by Yaa Gyasi, HOW THE ONE ARMED SISTER SWEEPS HER HOUSE by Cherie Jones and NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THIS by Patricia Lockwood. So let's talk about The Vanishing Half first, shall we?

The Vanishing Half is from Brit Bennett who is an American writer. It is about some twins in a really small and fairly poor town in the US who are both black, but they both have very light skin, so they are able to quote unquote White Pass, meaning that if you just looked at them out of context, you wouldn't necessarily know if they were white or not, and one of them leaves her family and sort of runs away and she ends up living her life as a white woman.

So she does what's referred to as like passing over or crossing over, and then it tells the story of the of these two twins because they're now they're now separated. They're living like completely different lives, and they each have children who end up sort of reconnecting in like a Parent Trap-type way.

00:07:36 JENNY

I love that you've just compared it to The Parent Trap. 

00:07:37 SARAH

[laughs]  I couldn't stop thinking of The Parent Trap the whole way through. I don't know if people know the parent trap. It was this very cheesy movie in the 90s. I think where these twin girls found their parents, they had been separated at birth and was living with the dad. One was living with their mum and you remember like that line “that’s my mom, that’s my dad”? 

00:07:58 JENNY

When Lindsay Lohan was in her prime! [laughs]

00:08:04 SARAH

So what do you think of it?

00:08:05 JENNY

See now we've gone alphabetical order and that is absolutely fine. It's the way it should be done…

00:08:10 SARAH

[laughs] It was your idea, mate!

00:08:12 JENNY

I know! I was trying to manipulate it, but I thought no, we're going to go for it.

This is my least favorite book on the list. It's well, it's not that I didn't…. No, actually no. I didn't enjoy it very much.

I listened to the audio which I would have said might have dampened my enthusiasm, 'cause I don't think the narrator is that good on the audiobook. I actually thought it was the least accomplished book on the list.

Interesting to me, 'cause I don't know how many of them are debuts. I know one of them definitely is.

I really felt that it was aimed at the like commercial market like it reads like commercial lit and by commercial I think I just mean like mainstream where you might find the you know Big Beach reads for the summer, that kind of thing but definitely fits in into that category, and I think the sales of it proves that that's kind of where it sits, so I have to give it credit in its subject matter to have fit into that category at all and make it readable and make it this big book that's sold what shitloads already. But that's the reason I didn't like it. Well, I guess she's attempting to tackle quite serious subject matters, I don't know that she did it though.

Well, I found it quite surface level. Yeah, that's my I'm a bit more about it and I I think I knew I would be…. If something is quite big, commercially is usually a sign that I won't necessarily enjoy it very much. So yeah, those are my general thoughts on it. What about you?

00:09:50 SARAH

Yeah, I agree actually. I found it very readable. It was a very straightforward read. You didn't have to think too much about it.

In general, I think the biggest problem with this book is that you really had to suspend disbelief all the way throughout, like a lot of the things that happened were pure coincidence, like literally, I think they get reunited because they bump into... They travel to the other side of the US and bump into each other in the same cafe or something like it's just ridiculous.

The major plot points are completely driven by coincidence, so there's no real reason why that would happen like that, and I don't normally even notice that kind of stuff. I don't really. I'm not normally very plot critical when I read, so it really jumped out at me. The subject matter was interesting, but I felt like it was a book of ideas rather than a an idea about a book if you know what I mean, she was like I want to write about this quite interesting idea of like passing over. And yeah, when you actually read it, it wasn't that interesting. I actually read…. so this book is kind of based on an older book that came out in the 20s I believe called PASSING by Nella Larsen. Yeah, I actually read it this week.

00:10:52 JENNY

Oh right, is it any good?

00:10:54 SARAH

Well, I was really interested in what was the original book was so I don't know if she it's like an adaptation or 'cause I see it in all the reviews like the sort of Guardian reviews of The Vanishing Half.

00:11:04 JENNY

She was definitely influenced by it.

00:11:06 SARAH

Yeah, you see like it referred to as the source material. So yeah, so I read Passing and it’s much much shorter. It's only 120 pages, and it's a similar story. However, the way that it's told is it's you're dropped into this very short period of the characters’ lives and all of the stuff with the black character living as a white person. This is already all happening, so it's fully established and you get dropped in almost like in a Mrs. Dalloway kind of style. Almost you just drop in, see what's happening and then the book ends so it's a bit of a slice of life thing. So as I was reading it, I was thinking like, OK, I now can understand if you're going from this book, why all those bits that were the strongest parts of The Vanishing Half are in Passing. And then the bits that weren't in Passing because Nella Larson didn't do it like that. I think she didn't sort of didn't make up for it or didn't create herself very well, so Passing is a very very accomplished novel, and it's much, much better. I would say it's also like less than half the length. 

00:12:01 JENNY

It's one of those family saga books that I think, why have you and why has your publisher forced you to cram this into like 300 odd pages. I wonder if she'd given it more room to breathe, whether it would have been….

00:12:20 SARAH

But I thought it was so slow though!

00:12:21 JENNY

Yeah, it definitely is slow. This is probably partly 'cause I listened to the audio. I found it massively confusing 'cause there's so many different characters and you just don't spend any time with any of them, really.

00:12:36 SARAH

She did something that I really don't like, which is time jumping within a very short period of time. So she was time jumping back and forth by like 2 years, which I really don't like.

00:12:44 JENNY

Yeah and on audio… I mean, I can't really follow that in in written form. So on audio I just didn't know where it was. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know who is who.

00:12:56 SARAH

Yyou would start the next chapter and it's like 1984. I'm like OK was I just in 1984 or was I just in 1986? 

00:13:02 JENNY

Yeah, yeah, I just didn't enjoy it actually. And it's my least favorite on the shortlist. Having said that, I can see why it's on the list actually. Reading out that criteria.

Yeah, well, I mean, we'll talk about it all at the end, but yes, I have. I have thoughts, but yeah, I can see why it's on there.

It wasn't for me like words, so next step is now how are you saying this, “Piranesi”? I hear it pronounced differently everywhere.

00:13:31 SARAH

Say what you like. 

00:13:33 JENNY

Piranesi by Susanna Clarke. So Susanna Clarke wrote JONATHAN STRANGE AND MR. NORRELL, which I haven't read 'cause it's a whopper of a book, and just the size of it puts me off.

But she brings us the story of Piranesi. It's a much shorter novel. I think it's just about 200 pages.

It's the strangest. Or is it the strangest book on the short list? Maybe conceptually it's the strangest, so it's about a man that lives in a House of endless corridors with thousands of statues.

The oceans floods in and out of the rooms flood up the staircases. He knows the exact levels of the tides, the exact times of the tides where they're going to come from and his life revolves around documenting and exploring this house or the world as they call it, and he believes he shares his house with just one other person known as the other, and they meet twice a week to discuss their research, which is the hunt for a great and secret knowledge, which I think they do say what that is. I now can't remember. It doesn't really matter.

And one day when Piranesi is out exploring, he comes across another person, realizes that they're not alone in there.

And at that point the true story starts to unravel. And that's probably about as much as I can say without starting to spoil it. What did you make of this one?

00:15:01 SARAH

I didn't really like this to be honest. I found it really boring. The labyrinth thing. It was well written. It was, yeah, nice prose. I didn't really care for these pages and pages about seaweed and shoes.

I wasn't interested in Piranesi as a character, so therefore wasn't interested in him in terms of his activities. As I was reading it, I was thinking like what is the point of this? What is this really about? I don't really understand why I'm being made to read this, Susanna Clarke. [laughs]

So yeah, well written. I can see why people might like it. Is that true? Yeah, I guess I can see why people might like it, but I just found it really boring to be honest.

00:15:41 JENNY

Yeah no, I agree. To sum it up, I thought it was boring. It's strange, like the first - it is only 200 pages long and the 1st 100 pages are just Piranesi wandering around writing stuff down, telling you about all these statues, like for half the book and you do - so for half the book, you're wondering what on Earth you're actually reading about. I definitely wanted her to get stuck into it quicker. 

And it is boring. And but at the same time as you start to understand what's going on, it does make sense, but that doesn't make for an enjoyable read like he's meant to be boring. But like, yeah, that that makes for an awesome book, unfortunately.

00:16:18 SARAH

Yeah, totally. For me as a character he just was not interesting enough so I didn't really care if he did any of his goals that I don't remember anymore.  Which are all related to seaweed and stairs. I think the later bit of the book when it starts to sort of change, we won't really say what happens, but it's also changed slightly. The last sort of third I thought that was really weak. Actually I didn't like….

00:16:46 JENNY

That it was really obvious.

00:16:47 SARAH

OK yeah, I thought it was pithy. [laughs]

00:16:51 JENNY

[laughs] Pithy, I like that that description.

00:16:54 SARAH

Yeah, I got no satisfaction from that at all. 

00:16:57 JENNY

Well, once you realize that a twist is coming. I worked it out and I'm not very good at working things out. [I thought it was obvious] what was going on. And then that doesn't make it the race of the finish line that I think she wants it to be.

00:17:12 SARAH

I didn't try and work it out. I don’t normally do that

00:17:17 JENNY

You're very good. You don't try to work.

00:17:18 SARAH

Well, I'm not plot focused at all when I'm reading so I just don't even think about the plot like it has to be pretty bad for me to even say anything about the plot. I wasn't intrigued by what was happening like as it started to unfold. I was like, OK? [laughs] 

So it’s not a case of whether I was surprised or not, it just didn’t do anything for me.

00:17:45 JENNY

Are you surprised that this one is on the shortlist? I don't think it fits their criteria at all.

00:17:52 SARAH

I don't think it fits with the others. It's quite, but it's quite isolated, like it's very random by itself.

00:17:59 JENNY

I guess for me. I mean I don't know if this is. I mean it should be. It's the women’s prize of fiction, but I don't know… You know they say it’s a story for like women now and like, but this story is about a man and it's very much about a man.

00:18:13 SARAH

Doesn't even yeah, it has one side character who's a woman who has is in it for like 10 pages and I don't think the you said one of her criteria before was strong characterization. I don't think it has strong characterization, yeah?

00:18:26 JENNY

No, I agree. A bit meh. I don't think we have much to say about that one. Do you know what?

I also found the cover gave me false… It was not like the cover so the cover makes it look like it's going to be some sort of, I don't know my mythology very well, but some sort of like Greek retelling or something like that, and it's not. Meh. Next. [Sarah laughs]

00:18:53 JENNY

So the next one is Unsettled Ground by Claire Fuller. So this is Claire Fuller's fourth novel, and it's the story of twins Jeannie and Julius, who have always lived with their mother in an isolated farmhouse.

They live quite a reclusive life. They’re poor and lived day-to-day on the earnings. Julius makes his, I guess he's like a casual laborer and the veg that Jeannie and her mother grow and sell to the local greengrocers. I think it's a greengrocers or a restaurant. My memory is terrible. In the opening chapter that this isn't a spoiler. It happens in the very first chapter.

Their mother dies, presumably of a stroke. The twins are then left to cope in a world that they don't really know and that they've not known before. And it turns out that their mother kept some pretty big secrets and has left them in the shit basically, so I guess it's a story about growth and survival, isolation, trust in people, lack of trust in people, and relearning how to be part of society is the general gist of it.

00:20:09 JENNY

What did you think of this one?

00:20:11 SARAH

Well, I liked it. I sort of have two different trains of thought regarding this book, so the book by itself I I liked. I really liked it. I found it very, very readable very quickly. I was invested in it. I read it pretty quickly. I actually read it in one day. I think I even read it in one sitting. It's really like easily readable. I think it's a very accomplished novel, it’s well done, she obviously she knows what she's doing. And I and I liked it. I actually thought of you like throughout. I was thinking, Jen will like this. 

00:20:37 JENNY

Yeah, you messaged me saying you’ll like this one.

00:20:40 SARAH

In the context of the Women’s Prize, I don't really know what it's doing on the shortlist. It is a good book. I don't think it's particularly original. Certainly hasn't stayed with me. It's like a good read in inverted commas, but it's not something that I would press into the hands of anyone.

I don't know who I would recommend this to and it certainly would never make any kind of like recommendation list from me, so yeah. Enjoyed the book in the context of the prize, a little bit puzzling to me actually.

00:21:06 JENNY

And this is when I listen to an audio as well, and that's the audio for this is very good. I really enjoyed it. It's my kind of book in its pacing and it's set in, but it's set in sort of probably. Do you know where it's at? I'm just going to say beautiful countryside. I imagine the Peak District in the UK, like Hills and stone cottages and farmhouses and, you know, vegetables.

For me it takes a few melodramatic twist towards the end, which isn't what I like, but then that is personal taste so… I was like you say, I was really invested in the book and I was loving the pace of it, loving the tone of it and then a few things happened there. I just felt a little bit over the top and then that's the tone of the book. Then like as it comes to its conclusion.

I also think, well maybe this is what is so good about it. I don't feel like it's an original plot. I couldn't name any, but I feel like I've seen this story done loads of times before where somebody dies and they've left big horrendous secrets behind. Yeah, but she definitely does it differently, and I don't really know if I can put my finger on how… It's probably just her writing and her writing style and her characterization is amazing. In it, I thought you can tell she's an accomplished writer. 

And that's where I think she stands out above some of the others on this short list in how well her characters, how good her characters are, sorry.

00:22:38 SARAH

I think most people would probably like this novel. It's a pretty all round, “okay guy” [laughs]

I guess the thing that I've seen a lot of people talking about with this novel is that it's got older characters as the main characters, which is, I guess, the unusual element of it. Yeah.

00:22:57 JENNY

Yeah, they're like twins in their 50s, aren't they? Which they don't allude to that in the blur, but I think I don't know if that would have put me off. [laughs] It's terrible, isn't it?

But yeah, it's not. You know, we say, oh, it's about older people that immediately makes me think of.

Uhm, oh God, like THREE THINGS ABOUT ELSIE or something like that. It's actually the tone of this one just proves that just 'cause you're older doesn't mean that you'd live different lives to people in their 30s or whatever. So actually, I think it's very well done.

00:23:27 SARAH

I feel like I'm going to get told off by my mother when she listens to this, she's in her fifties [laughs] “how dare you!” 

00:23:36 JENNY

My mom's nearly in her seventies, so she'll definitely tell me off.

00:23:41 SARAH

But you, but you'd really liked it, right?

00:23:43 JENNY

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I did enjoy this one. I want to read more of her like you say, I don't really know who I'd recommend it to. It wouldn't jump out as a recommendation, but I want to read more of her work.

00:23:55 SARAH

Yeah, like the context of it I guess is if someone said like oh I want to read an insular English village novel and then I would probably recommend like LANNY by Max Porter or something. Or yeah, like if you liked THE TROUBLE WITH GOATS AND SHEEP you would like it, I would say. 

00:24:15 JENNY

Yeah, maybe tonally. They're quite different. I'd say if you like that book, but you want it like a darker, less jovial version, then yeah, this is probably it. 

00:24:24 SARAH

Did you think that the characters were sort of slightly unrealistically mean to the twins?

00:24:30 JENNY

Well, this is what I mean, but I thought it was quite melodramatic. Like there are events happen in this that might whoa OK… really? Yeah, like people in English villages, I don't think are that horrible. 

00:24:43 SARAH

They were quite cruel to their main characters and I found that a bit hard to believe.

00:24:47 JENNY

But they're harmless and that I'd have thought that's how people would have treated them. Like slightly strange, harmless recluses I don't.

00:24:55 SARAH

Yeah, it was quite vicious and I couldn't really understand what was about them that would make you be kind of vicious. It was like they were more outsiders than they actually were. It was. I almost wonder if she originally wrote it with the main characters like from another country or something and then changed it so they were English 'cause it felt like a almost like an immigrant story or something from that they were just really nasty to them. I couldn't really understand why that was the case.

00:25:21 JENNY

Yeah, their motives aren't very clear. Maybe she played it a bit safe there.

00:25:25 SARAH

Right, so the next one is Transcendent Kingdom by Yaa Gyasi. Which we talked about quite extensively in the last podcast, be and Sarah, but Transcendent Kingdom is another American title. Gyasi is the author of HOMEGOING, so this is her second novel. 

Transcendent Kingdom is about a young neuroscientist called Gifty. She is living in the US. She's the daughter of Ghanaian immigrants and it is about her doing her PhD and becoming a scientist grappling with the balance of being a scientist and trying to like, you know, live this particular kind of academic lifestyle and her culture, the pressure that she has from her parents, how this kind of intersects? There's a lot of stuff about grief and that kind of thing throughout the novel.

We talked about it loads on the last episode but this is my favorite book of the year so far. Yeah, what did you think of it Jen? I'm interested.

00:26:18 JENNY

Ah, OK, I didn't love it, but I did enjoy it. It's the first one I've read, so I probably read this one back in May.

I have to say it hasn't kind of like lasted in my in my mind. She's an incredible writer. The fact that she can make science, neuroscience and religion readable and interesting and weave that into a plot about Gifty’s brother who dies. He dies of a heroin overdose, isn't he?

00:26:54 SARAH

Oh yeah, Oxycontin, I think. But yeah, drug overdose.

00:26:57 JENNY

The fact that she can do that, she writes about these experiments in such a, you know it could the potential for it to be incredibly boring was quite high, and it really isn’t. So I applaud that and I did enjoy it. I definitely want to read more from her, but if you tested and I mean I've already proven that I do not have a very good memory.

If you test if you tested me on various plot points in this, I don't think I'd really remember it. I can see exactly why you enjoyed it, and I think when we go on to talk about one of the other books on this shortly, it's the same for me in that I can see why this one hit particular interests of yours and how she's like brought all that together into this.

It's very well written story. I can I can see why it's your favorite book so far this year. But yeah, for me it  just hasn't made a lasting impression.

00:27:51 SARAH

It's kind of interesting. I have to say I was actually surprised to see it on the shortlist because I think it's an exceptional novel, like it's a you know, real achievement. For me the Women’s Prize books are quite accessible. Sort of easy reading.

00:28:05 JENNY

Well, that is one of the key - the proper criteria of the Women's Prize is that.

00:28:11 SARAH

Yeah, and I don't think this book is particularly accessible in that I think it is for it's for people who want a kind of really deep and introspective read. And I don't know if that's being rude to say, but that and accessible for me do not sort of work together. The Venn diagram of those things is quite a small overlap, you know a lot of those kinds of books that are sort of, yeah, intrapersonal are not accessible. They don't really have a plot, they’re not linear, because that's not the point of them, and this is certainly one of those books.

I've read a lot of the reviews of the sort of negative reviews on Goodreads, 'cause I'm interested to see what people say, and they seem to a lot of the negative reviews people -  they're sort of critiquing the plot and all that kind of thing when it's like. Well, this is really a book about grief and deep thought that like it's not a plot driven book like the plot isn't really relevant.

Yeah, so I think from a lot of people it's going to miss the mark because you have to sort of be interested and willing….Not to say you're not willing, but you know what I mean? You have to sort of be interested and willing to think about what she's trying to do. So yes, I don't know what it's doing on this prize e to be honest. Very happy it's there. 'cause I think it's awesome, but… [laughs] 

00:29:21 JENNY

Other than how accomplished the writing is, I'm not really sure why it's on the shortlist, but I think it would have been a controversial decision for it not to be. I think people would have been…. It had a lot of traction before this shortlist was announced and they say they're not influenced, but I don't know.

00:29:39 SARAH

The Booker longlist that comes out soon and it will be on there, I think. 

00:29:44 JENNY

It would sit better on there I think.

00:29:46 SARAH

Yeah, I think so, and it's probably more for those kind of readers. Well, maybe unless the Booker has gone as commercials, which I think it has. We'll see.

00:29:53 JENNY

I think this one toes the line toes the line of like on the more commercial side of stuff. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see if it ends.

00:30:02 SARAH

Up on the book are yeah, I mean if you compare it to like Unsettled Ground and Vanishing Half. I find it very confusing that they put these three books in the same shortlist.

[THEME MUSIC STARTS] 

00:30:16 JENNY

Thank you for listening to the podcast. We've reached that part in the episode where we plug all the different ways that you can support us. As ever, the easiest, the freest, the most effective, is to spread the word about the podcast.

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[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

00:31:27 SARAH

So the next one is HOW THE ONE ARM SISTER SWEEPS HER HOUSE by Cherie Jones. This is set in Barbados.

It mainly follows a young woman called Lala who is newly married to a man called Aden who is really, really abusive. But there's also a couple of other storylines, so it follows Lala’s grandmother as well. And and what happened to Lala’s grandmother when she was younger. And it also follows a white family who were on who lived in the same area as Lauren and Aden. So it’s set on Baxter’s Beach in Barbados, what did you think of this Jen? Or are you eating? [laughs] 

00:31:59 JENNY

This was my pleasant surprise on this list and I'm really glad it was on there so that I read it. I actually think it deserves a place on the shortlist. I think it really fits and meets their criteria. Yeah, I thought it was really. I cannot believe it's a debut novel. It's really well-crafted because this is a good one to make it very direct comparison to The Vanishing Half I think because she jumps around in timeline too. But she's so dedicated to her characters then you really know her characters really well and none of their actions seemed out of place. It's very character driven. She tackles some very dark subjects in this book like it is not for the faint hearted. It is quite shocking. We could probably plaster it with trigger warnings so.

00:32:52 SARAH

Probably check on Storygraph if you're interested. They have content warnings on there.

00:32:54 JENNY

She delved into her subject matter more. She explores it more and that's why I don't think the vanishing half did. But that's why I think The Vanishing Half has gained more traction than this one. This one might just go under the radar. I mean, it certainly has so far, so I really hope being on this short list gives it more traction 'cause I think it should be read wider. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. It's a really pleasant surprise.

I'm going to say the same thing about this one as Unsettled Ground, though. It just takes a few melodramatic twists towards the end that just for me, and this is personal taste. I don't like very much, but I mean I thought it was such a good book that I just accepted it. By the end I was like fine. OK, I'll go with it.

00:33:44 SARAH

Yeah, and then it’s her debut and then Claire Fuller… I think it's her 4th book or something. So yeah, yeah, I think we can give her a pass for that.

I completely agree. I really really enjoyed this. I thought it was very assured. Very complicated, yeah. Also I wouldn't have read it without it being on the shortlist, so I was really, really happy to see it shortlisted. It's a little bit more literary I would say than a lot of the other novels on the shortlist. And I just thought it was so well crafted as you said. And the characters are so well done. As we said, there's a lot of violence in this novel, and a lot of the main characters are really shitty people. They're really, really violent. They treat especially along the main character. Her husband treats her horribly and she is so well able to make them sympathetic because she goes back into their backstories and she does this so beautifully. It's not like an excuse, it's just a really good exploration about you know the complexity of things like domestic violence and how hard it is. Lala and her husband go through some really awful stuff together so they each react to that in different ways and he is awful to her.

He's also really, really struggling himself. He had an awful childhood, so yeah, I just thought it was really, really well done, it is dark. I didn't find it too dark to be honest.

00:35:04 JENNY

I read horror and watch horrendous horror films, so on the dark on the dark scale might be medium, but yeah.

00:35:09 SARAH

Yeah, so it depends. Depends who you are. As a reader, I guess I did feel it was a little slow in pace in places, particularly the last sort of quarter of the book. Maybe I felt like she wasn't quite sure how she was going to wrap it all up.

00:35:21 JENNY

And then made a decision and then it hurtled towards the finish.

00:35:24 SARAH

Yeah, yeah.

00:35:24 JENNY

Which yeah, maybe is the only thing that gives her away as a debut author I think.

00:35:28 SARAH

Yeah, but very very impressive debut.

00:35:30 JENNY

If she hadn't wrapped it up as quickly, then I think this would have been a five star read for me.

00:35:35 SARAH

Yeah, I gave it four and a half. 

00:35:37 JENNY

It was, yeah, I know I gave it 4 but it was like a high four in my mind. I really loved it. I thought it was. I thought it was great and like you say, just her exploration of character is really something to admire because the characters are are awful like one of the characters in the book, their their husband's friend. He he is particularly violent, but he turns out to be one of my favorite characters as she explores more and more of his background and for her to manage that and to create these really conflicting sorts in your mind. Yeah, I just. I haven't stopped thinking about this one, which I can't say for a lot of the others I have to say.

00:36:20 SARAH

Yeah, she's probably the one apart from the Gyasi, of course. I think she's the one that if she published a new book, I would read it like immediately. I'm definitely looking forward to whatever she does next.

00:36:27 JENNY

Me too.

00:36:30 SARAH

It was just yeah really, really impressive. And also surprise for me like yeah as well as well. And a bit of an under the radar book. So excellent.

00:36:38 JENNY

Last book on the list and probably the most polarizing is No One Is Talking About This by Patricia Lockwood, so this follows a woman who is known for her viral posts on social media and she travels the world giving talks and making appearances for her fans.

I think it's fair to say she's somewhat obsessed with the portal, which I mean, it's supposed to be Twitter, right? You'll see a lot of people describe this book as like a book of two halves.

There's something in the second part, something happens halfway through the novel, which sees this real clash of her real life and her life on the portal. Patricia Lockwood is a is a poet, and this is her first novel, so I think the biggest thing probably to point out is it's almost written in very stream of consciousness and it is kind of Twitter style like she writes in really short vignettes, so I think that's why it's the more polarizing book on the list.

I think this is the least accessible book for that reason, so I am surprised it's on there however, I loved it this this is my favorite book of the year so far. I really, really loved it.

00:37:58 SARAH

Oh! I didn’t know that. I hated this [laughs]

00:38:02 JENNY

I'm glad you did! It would be quite a boring episode if you said “yeah, loved it too!” 

00:38:07 SARAH

Well, I only read about 40 pages of it. I really didn't like it. I found it so so, so boring. I didn't care about her. I didn't care about her life on the portal. I didn't care about what she was worried about. I just could not bring myself to care, so yeah, I'm surprised that you liked it so much, actually, but I'm glad. I'm glad you found a book that you love.

00:38:30 JENNY

I loved it. I thought it's really funny. I mean I use social media quite a lot. I don't use Twitter, but I prefer to say that probably use Instagram more than I should so I knew enough of the references that she was using to get it and to find it funny. And I understand the obsession with social media like I'm in it and in that world, I understand their like all consuming nature of it. I mean, you wouldn't have reached the second half of the book, but something happens and tonally it takes this huge shift which people don't like. And they say it feels like two different books. I didn't see it like that at all. I'd see this tragic event happens in the family and it suddenly collides with this world that she's living in on social media.

Being someone that uses social media a lot and have something sad happen in my life, I've talked about it before I had a miscarriage and it was… It's one of those things because I shared quite a lot of my life, when that happened, and it was quite a long process. I found out at 12 weeks and then it was at the scan and it was a long quite sad drawn out process and I totally get what she's doing in the book 'cause like bringing those two things together because I didn't come off Instagram and I'm not the sort of person is like I'm going to step away from everything. I stayed on it getting pissed off at people living their normal lives and not caring about what they said and not giving a shit that this is happening to me and just announcing their pregnancies, how dare they? So I totally feel like I got what she was trying to do and I think this is where a bit like your Transcendent Kingdom. She's like gone with two topics that just really hit home for me.

00:40:10 SARAH

I think it yeah, that totally makes sense. And actually as you were saying that, I'm realizing why I don't use social media – well, I do use social media. I have an Instagram. I don't use it very much so I don't post and I'm not interested in social media. I find it really boring. My brain doesn't work properly if I go on Twitter. I just like close it immediately. I find it really boring and I don't like reading it. I don't like looking at my Instagram feed, I just I really don't like it.

00:40:37 JENNY

Which is healthy.

00:40:39 SARAH

Yeah, maybe I'm just maybe I'm just too self absorbed. I don't care about other people. [laughs]

I don't know if it's healthy. Yeah, so I guess I'm not set up to be interested in it because I just don't care for social media at all, so.

00:40:56 JENNY

Can I read you a quote from it so that everybody can kind of get this sort of vibe of the book:

“When something of hers sparked and spread in the portal, it blazed away the morning and afternoon, it blazed like the new California which we had come to accept as being always on fire. She ran back and forth in the flames, not eating or drinking, emitting a high pitched sound most humans couldn't hear.

After a while, her husband might burst through that wall of swimming ready to rescue her, but she would twist away and kick him in the nuts, screaming my whole life is in there!”

And that is the general vibe. That's the whole thing.

00:41:28 SARAH

OK, yeah, not for me.

00:41:32 JENNY

Yeah, normally I don't really... I do quite like poetry, so I think that might be why I enjoyed this one. But you immediately said to me “You always say you don't like the Booker and this is very much a Booker book” [laughs] 

00:41:46 SARAH

Yeah, I called you out Jen 

00:41:48 JENNY

Yeah, maybe it’s not that I don’t like the Booker, maybe I just haven't read one that that clicks with me 

00:41:54 SARAH

I don't know if this is eligible for the Booker, but I would not be surprised to see it on the long list if it is eligible.

00:41:59 JENNY

Yeah, I just thought it's really clever. I thought it was a really clever commentary on our obsession with social media, and… actually like you said, how boring it is, yet how obsessed we are with it. Like and she really kind of questions like do we even think for ourselves anymore like or are we just being fed stuff through this portal and we're not actually making our own decisions and I just.

I thought it was incredibly clever and very accomplished, but for all those reasons I am surprised it is on the shortlist.

00:42:28 SARAH

Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? I feel like Transcendent Kingdom and No One Is Talking About This are kind of similar books, in that way. They're sort of yeah, detailed explorations of a particular thing. Neither of them are particularly accessible.

00:42:42 JENNY

And this one isn't even written in an accessible style either, so.

00:42:47 SARAH

Transcendent Kingdom is like nonlinear and yeah, kind of weird. This is my normal beef with the Women’s Prize, as you know. I think their shortlists are illogical.

Let's talk about the short list as a whole, then did you. Is this the first time you've read the whole short list?

00:43:06 JENNY

Yeah, I was going to say I've never done this before. I really enjoyed doing it, which I didn't think I would 'cause normally I'm not a happy bunny when I'm told I have to read things, but I actually did really enjoy doing it. I enjoyed the variety and I know we're saying that some of them don't fit the criteria about if they all had. If they were all The Vanishing Half.

I wouldn't have enjoyed the experience of reading them all, so I really liked the variety of it and I wonder if some of that is intentional. They must know that people go out and pick up all the books and read them all. 

00:43:37 SARAH

Yeah. I also had a good time reading the shortlist actually, it was pretty fun. Yeah, they were very, very different.

What do you think is the what's your prediction for the winner? Well, two questions. What would you give the winner to and what do you think the winner will be?

00:43:52 JENNY

OK, well my win is obvious so I really like No One Is Talking About This. That's my personal winner. It’s not going to win. What do I think will win? 

My gut is telling me The Vanishing Half is going to win. I hope it doesn't, I hope…. it's already had commercial success and don't think it needs to win it, but then equally, if they're following their own criteria, that shouldn't matter. Either The Vanishing Half or Transcendent Kingdom. Oh I don't know. Yeah no, I don't think The One-Armed Sister will win.

00:44:37 SARAH

If I were the chair of the Women's Prize, I think I would give it to The One-Armed Sister. If I were looking at their criteria, so originality stays with you, strong characterization, relevant, I would give it to The One-Armed Sister. Personally, of course, Transcendent Kingdom is my favorite, and I also think The Vanishing Half will win. Actually, it was actually my prediction before I read it [laughs]

00:45:01 JENNY

I know that's why I'll be disappointed if it does win. Yeah, but then Hamnet won last year and I called that all along as well. So yeah, yeah.

00:45:11 SARAH

Yeah, that's what I was just thinking actually Hamnet won last year and that was already a big book. I think it, as you know, popular book before it won so.

00:45:17 JENNY

Yeah, I would like The One-Armed Sister to win. 

00:45:22 SARAH

Yeah, I'd be delighted if it won. I feel like it won't. I feel like it might be a bit too dark.

00:45:26 JENNY

I think it a bit too dark. Yeah, I think The Vanishing Half is going to get this one.

00:45:34 SARAH

But I mean, Cherie Jones is from Barbados. I would be delighted if she won.

00:45:38 JENNY

No, I'd love it. I'd love it to win and it's telling that it's the one physical one I could get from the library 'cause everything else was already booked out, but that one I could get in time.

If you look on Goodreads, it doesn't have as many reviews like the Patricia Lockwood one doesn't either. But yeah, I would really I'd like that one to win. I think it deserves when it fits their criteria. Yeah, and it would just be nice for a book that has gone under the radar 'cause everyone was like I'm so surprised it's on the short list, but actually nobody had read it yet.

So yeah, it would be good for it to win. Can you rank the? 

00:46:13 SARAH

I have got a ranking here! So I've got Transcendent Kingdom and The One-Armed Sister at the top. They're in my top two. They can switch around, I don't mind.

Then I've got The Vanishing Half. Because although I didn’t think it was a very good, I quite liked reading it like it was a good read. Then I actually have No One Is Talking About This.

00:46:29 JENNY

[laughing] Which you didn’t finish!

00:46:32 SARAH

Which I didn't finish. But I think it's interesting and I get why it's there. So it kind of makes sense to me in the context of this prize, you know.

And then as my bottom two I have Piranesi and Unsettled Ground, because both of those I think are just pretty meh. You know, good books whatever.

00:46:48 JENNY

Ah, interesting. I think mean you have ranked differently. Well, we have ranked differently. The order is different, but maybe how we've approached it. I have very much gone with like the order in which I really enjoyed them so.

00:46:59 SARAH

OK, Oh yes, I was thinking about the prize, how I would rank the shortlist, you know?

00:47:04 JENNY

But I'll go enjoyment and then maybe I'll try and think about the price context. So my winner, yeah, but so my favorite is No One is Talking About This. Then The One-Armed Sister, then I reckon Unsettled Ground and Transcendent Kingdom the same. Then Piranesi, then Vanishing Half for me.

00:47:25 SARAH

Did you read anything else from the long list, by the way? So, Exciting Times, Golden Rule, Burnt Sugar, Because of You, Luster, Consent, Nothing But Blue Sky, and Dentransition Baby and Summer. 

God it’s s a long longlist, isn't it?

00:47:38 JENNY

No, I haven't. I haven't read any of the others at all. Have you? 

00:47:41 SARAH

Yeah, I've read Detransition Babu. I've read Luster and I've read Burnt Sugar and I've read Exciting Times, so I've read four of the longlist. 

00:47:49 JENNY

Were you surprised that any of those didn't make the shortlist over what has yet?

00:47:53 SARAH

Yes, I wouldn't have put Piranesi and Unsettled Ground in. I think Luster or Exciting Times, I was surprised that neither of those were shortlisted. I didn't really love both of those, but I think it would have made sense to have one of them on there because they're very representative. One of the criteria was relevant, and I think both of those books are very relevant to fiction at the moment and what people are interested in. 

Dentransition Baby. I really, really enjoyed that. I thought it was great. I heard someone described as a very generous novel and I think that's really fair because she's really letting you - Detransition Baby is about a man who transitions into being a woman and then transitions out again so he's like trans woman, but living as a man. And it's about him and his partner who are going to have a baby. And then they decide that they want to like have another parent like helping them out.

So it's about that sort of how they sort of negotiate this 3 way parenting relationship, and I thought it was really interesting. And she's yeah, she's very generous in letting you in on this on this world. If you're not a member of the trans community. But I didn't think as a on a technical level, I didn't think it was a super accomplished novel like it was quite heavy handed in its explanation and that kind of thing.

So I was happy it was shortlisted. Sorry I was happy it was longlisted. But I'm not surprised that it wasn't shortlisted to be honest and then Burnt Sugar. I didn't really like Burnt Sugar [laughs] so I didn't really care about that.

So I probably would have put yeah Luster, and I think Detransition Baby is probably much more worth reading than some of the others that are on the shortlist. So for that reason I would have put it on there over the others, but.

00:49:25 JENNY

Yeah, interesting. I wonder what their decision making was behind that here. When you say that, I'm surprised that it wasn't on there over Piranesi 'cause I? I just don't see how that fits the criteria of this prize.

00:49:37 SARAH

Yeah, I think Dentransition Baby is just so interesting and it's really nicely done. Not an incredible – like what we were saying about the Cherie Jones, it’s not an accomplished, wonderfully well-written novel, but it's yeah, it's really good. 

00:49:53 JENNY

Hmm, I might read that one then anyway.

00:49:56 SARAH

Well, thank you very much for listening. We hope that you enjoyed the episode.

Please let us know what you thought of the Women’s Prize shortlist. If you read it or what your pick to win is, the winner will be announced on September the eighth.

It's been delayed a bit this year because of Corona. I think they're hoping to have a proper ceremony.

So plenty of time between now and then to pick up some of the books if you're interested. And yeah, please share your thoughts with us. You can email us at thebookcastclub@outlook.com 

We are on Twitter and Instagram. Both of those are @bookcastclub.

If you like, you can now also leave us a voice message. We have a new voice messaging service. If you do this, of course we might use what you say in the show, so bear that in mind, but the link for that is in the show notes if you're interested. And we also now have our newsletter, which is really exciting, this is a monthly newsletter, right Jen?

00:50:41 JENNY

Yes, I can't manage more than monthly.

00:50:43 SARAH

A monthly newsletter which will have reviews, new releases, other recommendations for podcasts, things that we've been doing, all that kind of stuff.

And of course, if you would like to support us, we would love if you would follow us and support us on Patreon. Thank you for listening! Bye.