Hello, and welcome to Doing Disasters differently: The Podcast with Renae Hanvin which is all about inspiring you to start thinking and doing disasters a little bit differently too.

In this episode, I’m talking with Jodie Willmer, Jodie and her partner, Robert founded happy Changemakers. I so love that name to support business owners and leaders who want to create positive change, make a difference and leave their Mark on the world. For over 20 years, Jodie has worked in leadership and governance roles for, with not for profits and social enterprises. And in the last few years, she’s expanded to include full profit businesses with a purpose, including an increasing number of small businesses who want to create positive change in 2018. Jodie and Rob did a tree see Lake mountain change love hearing about that and moved to beautiful escapes land in Victoria. Most recently, happy Changemakers has been working with bushfire impacted small businesses and community led groups on recovery and resilience strategies. Some fun facts about Jody. She worked as a German speaking tour guide at Uluru national park.

She had her first governance board when she was in her early thirties and hosted a radio travel show on community station joy Melbourne for 16 years. Jodie, thanks so much for joining me. Thanks so much for having me Renae. 

Now, I always like to start with how we met. So we met virtually via social impact collective that we’re both part of the X factor collective. And then Mel and I from corporate2community travel down to East Gippsland after the Bush fires and we’ve got to meet in person that’s right. And, and it was fantastic to be able to meet in person to, benefit from, I guess, the wisdom and the experience that both you and Mel have at that point in time, where we were working with lots of, uh, community members in, through their businesses and, working with a number of government agencies through some work with small business Victoria.

So, and the expect to collective while I’m just such a big fan of Julia Katie’s work and bringing us all together in different ways, to help people make effective change. Yeah, it’s, it’s a great social impact collective to be part of you. Absolutely meet some wonderful people. Now you and Rob from happy Changemakers. And please tell me how you came up with that name. Well, actually, Julia Keddie helped me, we were really looking for something that reflected, I guess, uh, not just aspirational thinking. So when we talk about change makers, we mean people who could be either in a leadership role, in a volunteer role in their own business that could be running a social enterprise. Really it’s about people who want to lead effective change, and leave the world a better place. And, and yet we know from our experiences and my own personal experience that doing that can lead to burnout and it can be exhausting and can be really hard to try and juggle all sorts of other responsibilities.

So Julia and I were sort of brainstorming some ideas at that stage and, came out with that ideas of happy Changemakers and a lot of people really like it. They, by small when we say it, so, but, but happiness is not a constant and we’re not trying to be sort of Pollyannaish. it’s, it’s recognizing that, um, there’s always struggles and, and we can learn and grow from that, but ultimately we also want to be happy and fulfilled that’s um, yeah, it’s so true. I have to say every time, your little email signature pops into my inbox, it absolutely makes you smile probably also the photo that comes with it. Cause you’re sort of happy in it now you and, uh, Rob, uh, doing a lot of work in your local area. So you mentioned before that you’re from the community around a steep slant who obviously got, greatly impacted by the 2020 Bush fires.

And in fact, I remember in, uh, over Christmas in January getting updates from me through the X factor collective in terms of whether you were evacuating or not evacuating. 

Now you’ve been working with, a lot of community groups and I’m talking about local leaders and, you know, your general people who found themselves, participating in, or being part of community conversations. You’ve been working with a few in terms of governance. And I think this is an area that is possibly a bit overlooked at that grassroots level, because it’s so important that when we are facilitating community led recovery, that we’re giving the community members the skills to be able to lead their own recovery. So can you just explain to me a little bit about what you’re doing in that space and when it comes to governance, what have you noticed at that grassroots level?

Well, I think that the first thing that we noticed, during the Bush fires, uh, particularly was that people just made things happen and, there’s sort of, it wasn’t even just spontaneous volunteering, uh, people who were using social media, particularly Facebook groups to communicate about what the needs were. Obviously there were updates of information through the official channels with the emergency app and various other official sources, but, we saw so many people with amazing skills, local knowledge, networks, relationships, uh, just make amazing things happen. and often that worked to a point, but I think what was, apparent to us is that a lot of small business owners might be involved in lots of other things. So, you know, if we think about especially small communities in our region, people can often be wearing multiple hats and during a disaster. And then part of the recovery process is the struggle to juggle all those different roles.

So somebody be a local, uh, firefighting volunteer. They could also be a Landcare person. They could also be on a local business and tourism group plus a wildlife rescue and running their own business and a farm. And, and that’s the reality of, of regional law. And I think where the, the difficulties emerge is when people, may or may not have some basic fundamentals in, the accountability and decision making that’s needed. When you’re thinking about things on a bigger scale, when it’s beyond just your community group or your patch, how do you work together effectively with a whole bunch of people often in a complex changing environment, uh, with government agencies where sometimes there’s a lot of lack of clarity about who’s who in the zoo. And so I think, some of the essential skills in governance can help people navigate that, but also to really make effective decisions, uh, and represent their community, you know, why that’s authentic and meets sort of really local needs because it is, I mean, it’s a skill set in itself, isn’t it?

I always talk about, you know, stakeholder engagement is a skill set. I mean, we can all connect and we can all meet new people, but it’s, you know, engaging there’s various levels and forms and purposes of engaging in and governance is quite, it’s quite similar. 

You’re right. Renae. And I think too, if we break down governance, into the sort of various skill sets, definitely stakeholder relationships and management and engagement are our fundamental part of any, group, uh, whether they’re an established committee or whether they’re part of a formal legal structure. but also it’s about, having a strategic outlook and, and a big picture plan. And then obviously being able to have a strategic action plan of, well, what are the things that we are trying to achieve? How do we know if we’ve been successful? How will we measure it along the way?

How can we get feedback from people to know that what we’re doing is relevant and necessary? And how can we make decisions that are really in the best interests of the bigger picture, not individual interests or perhaps, and this becomes quite more complex when you have people living in small communities is conflicts of interest can often be just, you know, maybe misunderstood, and can sometimes impact on decision making. Yeah. And it’s, I guess those sorts of conversations too, in the, the, uh, the moment and the recovery processes that people are going to can have quite detrimental impacts to connections in communities as well. 

So can you explain, I mean, I’m a full supporter of, the national principles of recovery and a big part of that is local led recovery because, you know, it’s, it’s not about people see going in and flying in and telling these local communities, you know, what they need to do and how they need to recover.

But what do you think from your experience and you’ve been doing where we met, obviously a lot of work with, business Victoria helping the small businesses, during the stages immediately after the Bush fires, what are the, what does it mean to communities and small businesses within these communities to be able to have a community led recovery? 

Well, the initial work we were doing through Aerium we engage with small business, Victoria was sort of business recovery advisory work with individual businesses, helping them navigate grants and helping them, connecting with supports. So we weren’t really working in that capacity and sort of community led recovery. But I guess now, we’re working with organisations and, and sort of informal structures, sort of groups of people who’ve come together to say, we need to do something, whether it’s planning a future event or, or whether they’ve been, formally part of a community recovery committee or some sort of, you know, formal structure.

that what we’re noticing is that people are often, trying to manage a whole bunch of workloads and competing priorities And especially now, and, you know, I think the, the reality is that in outrage and we had, drought, and then we had Bush fires, which were incredibly huge, huge impact. And now COVID-19. And so, even the impacts on not being able to meet face to face because of physical distancing has, an impact on people’s ability to communicate effectively. Of course, everybody’s adopted zoom and other forms of technology. Some people are zoomed out, but you know, even people who’ve maybe not used to using that sort of technology, or collaborating and working with groups of people. And I think this is a really fascinating part of community led recovery. This is about small businesses and communities working together, with other stakeholders.

And, you know, if you, if you’re just a person who runs your own business, and you may not have the experience or the skills of, of working collaboratively with other people sometimes, you know, you’re not aware of what needs to be done. So I think where some of the unmet needs are, and areas for skill development are, how can we effectively plan ahead? How can we communicate and use online tools so that we all know exactly the status of where things are at? I think these are things that can help equip people better to feel more confident, but also draw on their knowledge and their skills and their local understanding and compliment that. Yeah, definitely. with, building local capabilities in governance. So you’ve just mentioned a number of, I think the gaps in the areas that I think would really benefit, um, do you think it would help in building resilience as well?

So obviously it’s, you know, it really important and it’s a big need, I think, from what, what we’re seeing in the community is going through recovery, but what about communities as well, that are building or wanting to prepare for the next disaster? Yeah, look, I think there’s, there’s lots of room for opportunity to, build more resilience, uh, longer term for longer term sustainability. I think one of the risk issues that we’re facing at the moment in Australia, particularly in rural and regional areas, about aging volunteers, and many people who have been the sort of pivotal, uh, leaders in communities who again, play often multiple roles, um, either AIG or, you know, what, sometimes people are just tired and they don’t want to do it anymore. And that’s okay. You know, we have to allow people to have choices and feel like, you know, if they choose to do something different, everything’s not going to fall in a heap.

So we have to build in succession planning as part of building resilience. And that means equipping people with the skills to have those conversations, and also the, having people in the wings and distributing the workload and the knowledge, and making it inclusive so that other people can bring their stills to the table and their knowledge and shine. And I think if there’s only a small number of people doing everything, we’ve got all that eggs in one basket and a hundred percent. And I think you see that, you know, with volunteer fatigue, a lot of it’s happened over a number of disasters over the past 10 or so years that I’ve been observing that you have the same people in communities who put their hands up and participate. And then, you know, at some point they can’t do it anymore, or they’re literally I’m fatigued.

So I guess my question is in the communities who, who are the people, the stakeholders that we should be focusing on to build a governance capability, so we can expand that group. Are there any particular demographics or local leaders or people working within sort of organisations that would benefit from it? 

Uh, say, for example, what about governance training? There’s a lot of that offered by local councils, but it’s only to the people who are in the community services sector, not the small business owners who may be on the business and tourism associations or the chambers of commerce. So I think a local council has a really pivotal role. And I think, we, there’s also great opportunity to look at who else is playing in this, in this patch and what role could they play in supporting, um, a very structured approach. And, and that actually can be rolled out, uh, in, in very creative ways, not always relying on the face to face, um, and building in different ways of learning as well. Well, I think, um, if anything COVID-19 has showed us is that we can learn online and we can connect online, which obviously is great for communities in regional and rural towns who in the past would have not been able to attend courses or participate in programs because of a distance.

Whereas I think so much of the world now being available online is a really positive opportunity for learning as well as just connecting. So we can have people across different communities or different sectors connecting online, you know, they don’t have to be in the same room, which I think is potentially a really positive thing. Exactly. And I think too, you know, if we really want people to show up and, and do their best, and contribute in this community led recovery process, we have to think about why so that we can make it accessible. And that includes, you know, people who are juggling Parenthood and, um, running their own business and other commitments and try and think about how we can do things a bit more creatively that’s so, right. I know, I always talk about, and I always think about the small business owners.

And as you mentioned earlier, a lot of people in regional communities where a number of hats, but if they’re running a small business, they’re in, you know, they’re not accessible most of the time between eight or nine in the morning and five. So having programs that run then is, you know, is really difficult for the cafe owners and the retailers, ect. So, um, being able to offer, um, meeting times that obviously don’t impede on family time as well, it’s, it’s quite difficult, but I think, you know, there is more flexibility and opportunity, um, given the virtual kind of element that we can introduce as well. Now you mentioned, local council as one of the key stakeholders. 

So I wanted to kind of consider about the funding structure relating to how we can support local capability building around governance. So you mentioned, um, local councils obviously have one of, uh, an important role in supporting that.

Do you know, are the grant programs or funding structures? I know there’s, one that’s being launched soon that the federal government announced the $650 million that it potentially fits in, but where does the funding come from to support capability building in governance? 

Well, it’s an interesting issue because when I look at a lot of grants that are available now for disaster recovery and resilience and mental health and community capacity building, you know, all these different sort of subjects, they’re often spread out with philanthropic trusts and foundations, uh, or, and, and, you know, I think this comes to the heart again about skill development. Uh, there’s lots of funding opportunities out there. what is the challenge for particularly volunteer groups, is actually firstly knowing about all those opportunities and secondly, writing applications, and then, administering the grant and then acquitting the grant.

that’s a big impost, and I think there’s opportunity for more creativity about, um, collaboration between funders and from both, corporate sector from government, from, uh, corporate social responsibility areas, um, from, uh, philanthropists to actually say, how can we come together and pool our resources and funding and, and really do this well, not just for the benefit of, recovering from disaster, but also that’s going to have a legacy that’s going to have more economic and community benefit rather than a dog and pony show of small workshops that you may or may not get to that give you a sort of very basic overview. I think we can do better. Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent agree. And it’s almost as kind of funny, there’s almost too much governance around the grant side of it to enable grants, to support the building of capabilities in governance.

Now, can I ask you what are two things that you’ve been most surprised about in terms of lack of governance skills in bushfire impacted areas? Now this is not putting down any community groups in bushfire impacted areas, but what are the two kind of areas that you’ve noticed that wow, if they knew how to do this, that would have happened so much better? Well, I think it’s a shared area for improvement across all, all stakeholders. And again, this is said with a lot of love and respect for the great work that everybody’s doing, but I think one of the fundamentals is, um, a lack of role clarity for, for many of the entities. And so what that causes in terms of, um, impact and that, and that surprised me is how activities or initiatives can make people trip over each other. So, and, and that can be done at, um, a regional wide level, a statewide level,and at a local level.

so that, that surprised me. And I guess where that comes to the heart of governance is about stakeholder engagement and, uh, clarity of roles and purpose. Um, and I think it would be fantastic to sort of see some of that, um, be streamlined and broken down so that actually people are clear on the who, who to go to for certain things, but also in order for approvals to happen, things to get done, um, more effectively helping people navigate and understand the who’s, who in the zoo. Yep. And I think that the second thing that surprised me is perhaps, um, where people have worked in a lot of community led activities, their exposure is different to what they, what they might be doing now or what they’ll do in the future. So for example, if you’ve been involved in Landcare group or, um, local tennis clubs and things like that, you know, there are governance obligations there as a committee member, but when you’re working in a different sort of realm as, um, in community led recovery, you’re having to wear a different hat and look at things through a different lens.

And you also got to have conversations that may be very difficult and awkward and, might be challenging. And I think we could equip people better in their communication in order to have the courage to speak up and be heard, and also where their needs are not getting met and things are not getting done, helping people equipped with the skills to be able to effectively advocate, in a professional, respectful way that still achieves the goals. A lot of people, um, sometimes with their frustration of not knowing how to fix these things, often feel quite, disempowered. And I think that’s a big area for improvement. I think that’s a great suggestion to you. And I think it goes back to before saying a lot of times when, you know, disasters happen, there are the typical leaders who are already in communities and they already already have the experience of working in certain roles.

but as you said, they now have to look at things differently or they have a different role to play. But also I think there’s so many emerging leaders come out of, disasters in communities and it’s the kind of unexpected, stakeholders who end up being fabulous leaders. And, and sometimes, um, if it’s nurtured and I, you know, that continues and they turn into, or continue to be, um, great leaders in the communities. And I think the more that we can support and build capabilities around the understanding that it takes, you know, multiple stakeholders to participate in good governance and good decisions that generates good outcomes can only be of benefit for all communities. Now, I like to end. Um, so I’m obviously all about doing disasters differently. And my big focus that I’ve been, talking to everyone almost about for the past few years is around disaster resilience.

So I like to end by asking to what two things would you like to see different in the disaster resilience space? Wow. I could only have two things. We’ll start, we’d say what I would love to see different in this disaster. Resilience space is a, um, a structured, uh, coordinated, uh, capacity building process and, activities that help build the skills and capabilities of communities and small businesses, um, to, uh, lead local recovery. And that is the skills that we’ve talked about today. Uh, stakeholder engagement, decision-making, you know, dealing with conflicts of interest, effective advocacy, a good planning, um, you know, using online tools, all those things that sort of other fundamentals that, that, uh, enable people to, do their job really well and represent their community and get great outcomes. Um, the second thing would really be about, um, I guess, mirroring and matching that, uh, school development in some of the agencies who are involved.

And, and that’s all sectors of government, levels of government and, a also players in the space, because I think, some of the people who are in their roles, could benefit from also seeing it from a different perspective. So, you know, what are the unintended consequences of us doing this survey with this community or this program where we’re, you know, doing things that, might be doing to people as opposed to with, I think that would be a great result because then the skill development for communities and small businesses, skill development in the agencies and the organisations around governance, could really help improve the communication, but really importantly, help people think strategically, and not burn out and get more done that will deliver better outcomes for the community. That’s so true. I, I mean, I think we’re, we’re all part of communities as people, but we obviously have stakeholder roles and responsibilities and the more that we can share what roles and responsibilities we each have and, understand each other roles and responsibilities and how we can work together, absolutely is going to result in a better outcome and more content, more connected community and a more resilient community because we know how to work together.

Jodie, thank you so much. It’s been really great to discuss, doing disasters differently when it comes to governance, which is a really important, and I think often overlooked element to, uh, to the before, during and after stages of disasters. I really appreciate you joining me and I’m sure you don’t mind me inviting anyone who wants to connect with you to jump online and find a happy changemakers. Jodie and Rob do some fabulous work with small community communities, particularly around East Gippsland. And yeah, I really appreciate talking with you. Thanks so much for now.

That’s the end of this episode of doing disasters differently, the podcast, which I hope you found to be relevant, informative, and inspiring. If you’re interested in participating in the conversation or to connect with me personally, please visit corporate2community.com. Until the next episode stay safe. And remember, we all have a role to play in thinking differently and doing differently before, during and after disasters.