Doing Disasters Differently: The Podcast with Renae Hanvin

Building cultural heritage resilience

• Renae Hanvin

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In this week’s episode of Doing Disasters Differently, Renae is talking with Johanna Garnett who is the Manager of Disaster Resilience & Risk Reduction at the South Australian Fire and Emergency Services Commission (SAFECOM). Today we are talking about building cultural heritage resilience. 

Renae Hanvin:

Hello and welcome to Doing Disasters Differently, the podcast with Renae Hanvin, which is all about inspiring you to start thinking and doing disasters a little bit differently too. In this episode, I'm talking with Johanna Garnett, who's the manager of Disaster Resilience and Risk Reduction at the South Australian Fire and Emergency Services Commission, also called SAFECOM. And we're talking about building cultural heritage resilience. So a little bit about Jo as an emergency management professional. Jo has over two decades of experience in the sector, having served in various capacities across three state governments, and a role managing the oldest Disaster Resilience Institute in Australia for over five years. Jo also has an academic background with a Master's in Emergency Management and Post Grad in Terrorism and Security Studies. She has published several academic papers on libraries and disaster resilience, and is currently undertaking a Doctorate in Public Safety at Charles Sturt University. Her current role is the manager for disaster risk reduction and resilience at SAFECOM. So I'd like to start with where we met. Jo has been in the emergency management space for quite a few years. I'd heard her name pop up here and there, but it wasn't until she was at SAFECOM in South Australia and we started delivering a few projects in that region that we got to know each other better. Jo is without doubt, one of the most passionate people I know when it comes to cultural heritage and resilience. She's such a great advocate for the role, places like libraries play in building community resilience, a clear crossover with our social infrastructure work with Professor Daniel Aldrich. It's been great to have Jo involved in conferences like the EMPA Conference in Canberra, where we talked about how pubs and libraries can save the day. Jo, thanks so much for joining me today.

Johanna Garnett:

No problems. Nice to be chatting about one of my favorite topics

Renae Hanvin:

I know now, Jo, I know one of your favorite pastime, and we've done this many times, is to invite people for a coffee, cake and catch up. So let's pretend this is what's happening here. So why are you so passionate about cultural heritage when it comes to building disaster resilience?

Johanna Garnett:

Well thank you first of all for the invitation to chat today. And obviously I'm joining you from Kaurna country in South Australia , this morning. My passion for cultural heritage, now, where did it come from? I suppose it starts quite a long time ago actually. I've had long associations with the cultural heritage sector, so my bachelor's degree is a ctually in history. But really it started I think, w he n I was working in the UK. So I used to work with historic houses for a di s trict council, and part of my role was to work with Althorp House following the death of Princess Diana to develop a tourism strategy, fo r all the historic houses, in that area. And really through that way, that's when I found kind of the role, I suppose, of cultural heritage in that broader community sense. So what I tended to find there is often, obviously tourists coming into the area would , definitely deliver an economic benefit, but it really was kind o f t hat emotional connection and the way these historic homes would be employing local people and using local suppliers and would be really valued and looked after by community. And I suppose that's really kind of the first time that kind o f really came to the forefront, for me about t hat, that broader role t hat cultural heritage had within local communities. But when I moved to Australia, a nd I began to work in the, in the emergency management sector, I kind of noticed it wasn't really as prevalent. so when you look at particular, p ol icies or procedures, it, it just wasn't there. particularly obviously because it is now mentioned in the Sendai framework for disas ter risk redu ction, and so it kind of started me to ask, well, I I d o n't quite understand why it's not as included as what I would probably have expected it to be. And when I used to work at the Department of Fire and Emergency Services or DFES in Western Australia, we had quite a few incidences where we'd had very prolonged bush fires and they'd had a massive impact on Indigenous cultural sites. And in about 2014, one of the biggest parks, Whiteman Park , in Western Australia actually, w as, s ubject to quite a large bushfire. And following that, they actually developed a risk management plan for the museum that was ci ted o n their site. And then obviously Yarloop, we've seen, th e fires in 2016 there, the Yarloop Railway workshops are a very well kno wn ca se of all that heritage that was lost, and obviously the facade of the Town Hall was lost, and subsequently how that community went on to actually fight for its, r es toration and its incl usion in their recovery. And so I've kind of, se en , seen the impact of the loss of cultural heritage on communities, but also how people have fought and made inroads into trying to protect it. And then, so obviously , in my current role in South Australia working at SAFECOM, w e have a ma ss a mount of heritage within our state. We have, it's nearly like 2,400 State Heritage Places listed, w e've got 43 National Heritage Places, an d even our State library. I mean, we have 141 li braries in our state and 172 museums, and in cluding of course, like the Art Gallery of South Aus tralia, w hich houses of ne arly 50,000 pieces of work. So we've got the second-largest sta te co llection of art in Australia after yourselves in Victoria. And so here we are, we have all of these institutions who are actually responsible and our cu stodians for our cultural assets, a n d so to me, I think it's been a combination of all of those typ e of th i ngs over the years that's really kind of made me passionate about it in the sense, because I think the cultural heritage kind of really embodies our collective memory and identities of a co m munity and whatever that community is or i de ntifies itself as kind of really reflecting what makes it, ve ry unique and strong. So it's not just about preserving buildings and traditions, but to me it's always really about sustaining the core values that kind of bind that community together. And what I've tended to find is the more that I've dug into this space, the cultural heritage really serves as a kind of a real source of resilience for those communities , and really offers, it kind of provides that sense of continuity and sense of belonging, which of c ourse is, is really kind of key foundations for recovery as well. So to me, it's not just about restoring sort of physical structures necessarily, but it's really about preserving the heart of a community, whatever that community is, o r identifies itself as. And what I find is that when heritage is kind of respected and v alues, it really strengthens people's connections, you know, to their roots and which obviously i ntent kind of fosters resilience and that social cohesion piece. And so really for me, that's kind of where that value of what cultural heritage brings, not only to communities more broadly, but also to us in emergency management. And I'm sure we'll talk about some of the examples about the contribution that sector has made and is making to our aims and objectives , within emergency management, it's a bit of l ater in this, in this interview, but, f or me, those were the things really that kind of sparked me down this path. and obviously ultimately, l ed to doing a PhD in this area.

Renae Hanvin:

Jo, your background and your kind of pathway to get to where your passion is is obviously same, same but different to mine. And I love hearing back to, you know, all the parts of your journey, you know, professionally and personally, and how you find your, you've found your little niche in the disaster resilience space that, as you say, it's such an important area that, you know, it really doesn't have, I guess, the focus that it, it should have. But we'll come onto that in a minute. So can you just explain for me what do you mean by cultural heritage?

Johanna Garnett:

Yeah, look, I think it's, it's a definition which is, it's actually quite hard to define I think in some regards , because it, it can mean very different things to different people. And even last week I had a conversation with somebody who said, well, cultural heritage just means indigenous heritage. And I was like, no, it's f ar, it's broader than that. So whilst, you know, indigenous heritage is one really important component, and I think i t's probably the component that most people in emergency management have perhaps had some dealings with, particularly over the last sort o f, f our to five years. actually, you know, cultural heritage is far broader than that. So when you look at the academic literature about what we actually mean about cultural heritage, there isn't actually really an agreed definition of it. but you can kind of see that there's common themes that come out of, th os e discussions. So you can broadly say cultural heritage refers to the legacy of sort of physical artifacts or intangible attributes that have been passed down through generations that really kind of hold historical, social or cultural significance for a particular group or a community or a society. And normally most people will say like, there's kind of two areas. So there's the tangible cultural heritage. So these are kind of like our physical objects or places that have a real cultural importance. So think about things like monuments or buildings , historical sites such as ecological sites, c ultural landscapes such as parks, an d artifacts, hou se in mu seums. So things like, you know, particular artworks or manuscripts, for example. And then we've got intangible cultural heritage. So these are often the non-physical elements of a culture that are often passed down either orally or through traditions. So things like traditional practices or rituals such as festivals or ceremonies, l an guages and oral traditions, music, dance, performing arts, kn ow ledge of traditional crafts. The other part that I often think about though that sometimes are found not as prevalent , in some of the definitions I've read is the need to consider infrastructure. So, infrastructure such as a ir l ibrary or a ir museum t hey're often a real, i ntegral part, o f cultural heritage. And sometimes that's not as obvious in some of the academic definitions, th at are fo u nd. S o of course, w e live in Australia and of course we have one of the oldest cultural heritages, on the planet, you know, thanks to the ongo ing cus todianship of our indigenous colleagues. And sometimes I've had discussions with people around what they perceive to be cultural heritage, and a lot of people think it's kind of like that old, du st y Indi ana Johns type vibe. But w hen we'r e talking about all t hin gs right, but we not, so, I m ean, we've got such a melting pot of multicultural heritage from across the world is ac tu ally, obv io usly within Australia. So we have a lot of , different multicultural communities within Australia with t heir festivals and the cuisines. S o, you know, t hinking about like suburbs like Footscray in M elbourne, an d you think about sort of those migrant communities and the architecture that they've brought and all of that, c ul tural heritage that they've contributed to us. And then of course, you've got things like buildings like the Sydney Opera House or Federation Square, wh ic h are really part of our kind of contemporary cultural identity and our heritage. So even things like, Hos i er Lane in Melbourne, you know, all of that kind of street art is, can be classed as part of our cultural heritage. So, it' s quite a fluid definition, I think, for people. but those are kind of like the main things, you know, is it a, is i t a, tang i bl e or intangible? Those seem to be the common themes that are coming out of the academic literature particularly.

Renae Hanvin:

Gosh, I love that It's so easy to kind of, I guess, understand, but also it just makes you think that it's everywhere. Like it's everywhere you see, it's things that you do, it's , people you connect with. yeah, it really is just, I guess, a big part of an essence of, you know, all of our communities.

Johanna Garnett:

And ven if you even just, I mean, when you think about, whenever you ask people about, say for example, Adelaide, most people will say, well, we want to go because we want to go and have a photograph taken at the malls balls. Right? That's what it's known for. Everybody who comes in here has to have their photograph taken at the malls balls, and that's what , and that's the type of thing, it doesn't have to be old , you know , our cultural heritage can be contemporary. It doesn't have to be , kind of the a ll buildings necessarily.

Renae Hanvin:

Oh , that's such a great way to look at it too. It is. Now, you had a really fantastic forum in Adelaide last year that I was able to attend the last part of. Can you share with listeners who was there, what did they say and what were the key findings that came out of it?

Johanna Garnett:

So , no surprise to anybody who knows me , that I was very keen to get the cultural heritage sector and the emergency management sector across the table from each o ther. and this was actually the first time this ha d e ver been done at a s tate level. I have been told it's the first time at a n ational level, these two sectors have actually come together. so what we did is we took, there was some funding available through what used to be the National Partnership Agreement, which is basically used to be a pot of money that the state government and the Commonwealth government would put in together to try and fund a d i saster risk reduction initiatives. So within South Australia, we called it the Disaster Risk Reduction Grant program. And we teamed up with, so SAFECOM teamed up with ArtLab and the History Trust of South Australia, and we did some disaster training for community museums. So these are often , community museums which are quite small, but h old, r eally key heritage items from a particular community more than likely. So, for example, handoff is a prime example. There's a community museum up there that was part of that training. and obviously everybody who comes to South Australia to the Hills normally includes a v i sitor to ha ndoff. and so really that was the first time an initiative in terms of disastrous reduction training had actually taken place for community museums. And often of course, they , inv o lved vol unteers from that local community. And so to build upon that, I really wanted to kind of bring the emergency management sector together with the cultural heritage sector to kind of look at some of the issues that I'd been seeing and speaking to people about over kin d of the last previous five years. And so it was at t he forum was actually quite an emotional moment for me because I'd been advocating for such a long time for this conversation to formally occu r tha t when everybody was in the room, it w as, it was actually quite a moment because I realized that if I did nothing else, at least I'd brought these people together to have a conversation and to learn from each other and hopefully for people in emergency management to understand the value that cultural heritage was actually bringing to the work we were trying to achieve. And to try and think about that in their forward considerations. So we had over 60 people, so obviously we gathered at the historic Adelaide Town Hall , because if it's good enough for the Beatles, it was good enough for us <laugh>. and so really it was quite a diverse range of stakeholders. so we had people from government, w e had people, th ere fro m th e cultural heritage sector. So we looked at quite a range of topics actually, in terms of, we looked at he ritage legislation, we lo oked at em e rgency ma nagement arrangements, we looked at legislation around, A b original heritage, and we also reviewed a number of case studies such as Loxton Museum's response to the flooding, w e had a colleague from Victoria talk about how cultural heritage plays a role in the ir re covery piece and obviously because of the Murray River flooding we'd identified, th at there had b een impacts on that to Ab or iginal heritage. And of course that throws up some questions or , t rying to find ways to, t o try and mitigate against that in the future to try and ensure that we preserving our, Ab original heritage as much as we can in a way that is culturally appropriate. And so so m e of th e ke y findings, w e found from that forum was really for the emergency management to kind of thin k abo u t inc orporating cultural heritage professionals, in to our sort of disaster considerations in a, in a better way, to tr y and increase our engagement between the two sectors and sort of build that collaborative network far more, and t o look at kind of imp ro ving our frameworks and strategies to integrate cultural heritage into those considerations, to look at enhancing mapping and data sharing, to try and empower our local communities, into t hat protection piece and mitigation piece. But also , particularly for me, kind of that communication and education piece around how do we advance awareness and knowledge about the importance of cultural heritage within emergency management more broadly. And so from the for we've established a cultural heritage and disasters network, which meets probably once a year. So we , we've got a next m eet a nd plan just before Christmas. And we a re also in the process of organizing some practical sessions for emergency management staff and volunteers for handling damaged personal goods, so people's personal heritage. So my photographs, y ou know, wedding dresses from my gr and, things like that, wh ich I've seen a lot in, thanks to the, the State Library of Queensland. The y we re, I was there once and I just happened to call in on a fluke and ended up stalking this old gentleman who I've seen walking through the door with this box. And it had obviously been damaged , in the 2011 floods. A nd what I subsequently found out is the library were actually running sessions where the community could come in, bring their damaged personal goods, and they could get advice on whether or not it could be restored and, p ut them in contact with restorers about, wh at that might look like. And so whe n I s t a rted to ta l k to th e m, t he libr ary had act ually developed a series of advice sheets, if you like, for communities to say, if you are impacted by, fl o od waters or if you have items which have been damaged by smoke, these are some of the simple steps you can take in the immediate aftermath, and it may just give you a chance of being able to restore your items at a later date. And so for me, being able to train emergency services staff and volunteers to be able to say to communities, look, if we d o this, you may have a chance of being able to save your personal heritage. is one of the really key things I I'd like to focus on next, because as we know, what are t he biggest mental health impacts following a dis a ster is people's loss of their identity and their personal, personal items and mento rs. So, for m e, that's kind of my next key step is to try and, and get some of that training and that knowledge sharing from, from A rtLab, particularly here in South Australia into the emergency management sector. So then hopefully we can pass that knowledge on to c om m un ities who've been impacted.

Renae Hanvin:

Jo, can I just take a step back here and go - Wow, and thank you, your passion and your focus and just your, I guess, you know, commitment to this part of the resilience piece of the pie. I mean, you've been doing things as you said, state first , potentially, you know, nationally first it's, it's conversations that absolutely need to be had. And, you know, yes, we think of the, you know, historic components of cultural heritage, but you know, those recipes from, you know, your grandmother that you might lose. And as you said, the dresses that have been handed down for generations, that personal , heritage is, you know, that's something that's so, so important. And I love that you are looking at, you know, current situations and obviously there's lived experience , there at the moment as well and, a nd, a nd driving things to change that, a nd really em bed i t i nto the, the ecosystem now on the focus of that. And I'm sorry on the, the topic of that, and I'm probably probably gonna be able to answer this question for you, but I won't. So is there enough focus on cultural heritage within the ecosystem of resilience?

Johanna Garnett:

No.

Renae Hanvin:

I'm not surprised.

Johanna Garnett:

Yeah , no , look, it's, it's getting better, but I think, I think it's, well, primarily because I just annoy people with it everywhere I go, < laugh>, I j ust try to advocate. But I t hink the work has been, the work has certainly been going on in the cultural heritage sector. but unfortunately, you know, it, it can , i t hasn't translated over into emergency management, and that's for many reasons, you know? but it's a really important question to r ef lect upon, actually. And I was thinking about that last week. So I w as in Sydney for a conference, and one night I'd gone for a walk, ci rc ular key, and I was looking Shirley's cultural heritage icons. So I have the opera house on one side, the harbor bridge on the other. I've got the ferries going to a nd from, you know, and when I sto o d and I watched and I watched people that particular evening, and they'd come for, you know, they were obviously eatin g and drinking and stuff, but that's not why they were there. They were there because the landmarks I was surrounded by aren't just structures, they're so kind of deeply woven into our identity and that global perception of the country that people from around the world have. There was literally hundreds of people from, from every part of the globe who come specifically to visit and experience those particular sites on that particular evening. And I just kept thinking, what would happen if we lost one of them? So what if we wake up tomorrow and suddenly the Opera House had gone for whatever reason, and we saw something very similar with the fire at the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris in 2019, and we saw kind of the emotional and the cultural devastation that kind of played out across the world from people. , and even now, like the, the cathedral isn't really due to open until the back end of this year, so it's been a mammoth task for them to , try and restore it. And of course, that loss kind of still echoes, you know, most people ignore , where t he, w here when t hey h eard the news that it was, you know, it was on fire and we all seen o f kind of t hat outpouring of grief. So when you look at it and you think about it in t he, in the context of Australia, you know, there are a wide range o f effects of losing a n, an important piece of your cultural heritage. So there's the emotional impact, obviously, because people mourn that kind of loss of the symbol. And then socially kind of the connection it has to the history a nd the community, and obviously that's all disrupted. And then o f course, economically, you know, there a re would be an impact on tourism. I mean, if we, if we lost the Opera house, that's a massive part of the tourism draw, particularly obviously for Sydney. So these, these landmarks really aren't just buildings, the kind of reflections of who we are and touch people in ways that resonate across generations. Of course , lose one would create a void that would be very difficult to fill. And I always remember the conversation I had with a lady in Victoria, and she, she was part of a community that lost, it used to be , like one of the o ld fire spotters towers. And she said, she said, people think people are sad because it's bent down and you know, it has a, a connection to fire history. She says, but what we know in a community, she says, is that's where we used to go when we were caught back in the day, < laugh>, she says, I used to go u p there with my husband. She said, so for me. And h er husband had not long actually passed away, and she s aid, she said, I feel like I've lost another connection to him. She says, because that's where we used to go, she said, so every time I looked at it, I used to remember the times there, she said, now it's not there anymore. So the loss isn't just about for the big cultural heritage pieces, it's also for those cultural heritage pieces, you know, which mean a lot , to our communities. So when you look at it in that terms of, i ts impact on the ecosystem, it's pretty, it's, it's pretty massive. But you look at, it's mentioned in the Se ndai f ramework under Priority three, but at the moment, Australia still has no mechanism to kind of measure against priority three, although we are having some discussions about how we may be able to facilitate that. But when you look at state emergency management plans, o r resilience plans, or , you know, there's barely any me ntion o f i t . And so that was the part for me that kind of really drove my PhD research at Ch arles S turt University, which is kind of looking at how can we develop, di fferent strategies and approaches to better integrate those cultural heritage con siderations in to our practices and policies and risk reduction efforts within Australia. And I think we also as a sector really need to cultivate a very deeper understanding of the value that cultural heritage holds for the communities and for the risks it currently and will face in the future, particularly in the context of a change in climate. so for example, in South Australia, we recently conducted a project which m apped disastrous reduction and resilient ecosystem, within two geographical areas. And the findings of that study also demonstrated that cultural heritage was not part of that current ecosystem apart from some of the projects we'd funded via our grants program.

Renae Hanvin:

So talking about funding, so where's the funding relating to cultural heritage?

Johanna Garnett:

Well, there isn't any, again , the only funding we've, been able to do at our state level, was through that national partnership agreement. So through our, d isaster risk reduction grant program, ob viously we funded the community museum training, w h ich obviously included part of th e forum. but we also encouraged applications, fr om that sector to exactly, to try and do that, to try and address some of these things, to tr y and really, I suppose, put evidence behind what we'd already found, thro ug h some of my, through some of sort of my work and advocacy, to se e what we could do. And so we, we obviously did the museum piece, but now we're working with pub lic libraries as well. So a lot of people aren't aware that public libraries actually hold quite a large heritage collections. so that project is really aiming to enhance the disaster resilience by equipping library staff with knowledge and skills and practical training to develop, tailore d disaster plans for that particular library in order to ensure that their unique local history collections, you know , are protected as much as they can. The other project we funded , through the same scheme was with the Aboriginal Affairs and Reconciliation Group a t the Attorney-General's Department. S o, t hat looks at trying to balance the heritage protection of indigenous sites with the confidentiality and the cultural requirements, th at are needed. So that's working with the CFS , s o th e fir e se rvice, t o develop a mapping tool that informs emergency personnel of the presence of Aboriginal heritage in the area whil st try ing to safeguard its precise location and the details of sites, because there are obviously, le gi slation requirements that sit around that. So we don't know what that project will find yet. It may, it may prove to be, dif fi cult. We may find, a go o d middle road with that, but we all sat at the table and went, well, if we don't give it a try, we're never gonna know. And so all of the partners involved in that , were certainly willing to come to the table and, and we'll give it a try. but unfortunately, uh, we have tried to apply for further federal government funding, uh, which hasn't been, s uccessful to date, but we're of course gonna keep trying, b ut fo r n ow I'm just focusing on tr ying t o maintain those conversations with colleagues, gathering the evidence about why it's important and why it's valued and why it should be reflected in our policy and really just advancing, ki nd of my own research in this area. And of course, you know, cultural heritage plays a large role in social capital and social infrastructure, which I'm sure will inform par t of th e snapshot project you've recently, c om pleted and obviously we'l l fea ture in your new Disaster Ready Fund over the next 12 m onths of the y our next project.

Renae Hanvin:

Yeah, I know a hundred percent Joan . For those who d on't k now, we a re very excited to h ave been successful in the Disaster Ready Fund round two, to create a national social capital and social infrastructure measurement framework to benefit all Australians and actually pilot test Professor Daniel Aldrich's data measurement in t hree communities in South Australia. So st aying t uned for more information on that one. And in fact, if you are interested in the work that we're doing with Professor Aldrich on social capital and social infrastructure, jump onto our website resilientready.o rg. And if you go for, ta ke a look at the White Papers tab under Resources, you'll find the findings report from our snapshot project that we delivered in South Australia recently. So what difference do you think, P ro fessor Aldridge's global measurement, on s ocial capital and social infrastructure, what do you think that would provide for Australia when it comes to c u lt ural heritage resilience?

Johanna Garnett:

I think it'll demonstrate, I think it'll demonstrate a lot actually in terms of, firstly, probably how much we have that we are not actually aware of. But secondly, I suppose the importance of some of that cultural heritage infrastructure particularly, and the role it plays in actually connecting communities. You know, it's the places where people connect. And there's a great quote that I read recently, f rom an academic, fr om Charles Sturt University, ironically called Jane Gardner. And Jane does a lot of research in, i nto, l ib raries, and she quoted two of t he res earchers, I forget thei r nam es now, but it was a fantastic quote. And it basically says that over the last sort of five to ten years, libraries have been kind of switching their focus from collections to connections.

Renae Hanvin:

Ah...

Johanna Garnett:

And I think that is such a perfect way to encompass particularly the role , that I've seen libraries play in that social connectedness piece. because of their social and relational nature, th ey k ind of become community hubs, you know, they're very safe and inclusive places. so for me, I think there'll be, D an iel's work I think will show us t he role that tho s e typ e of, in st itutions really play in building the connectedness of a community and really, I suppose kind of understanding the strength to br in g to a community, and s o forth. So yes, I 'm, I'm looking forward to seeing what Daniel's work provides and en sur es in that regard.

Renae Hanvin:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, as you said before , you know, social capital people, connections, that's the, I u se the short t erm. And then social infrastructure being places where people connect, a nd the community organisations, including the libraries and, you know, the halls and, and so many different places in the communities will be, I guess it's the missing piece of the resilience puzzle when we did the snapshot project that was part of the findings. So it'll be really fantastic to pilot test an d, and have a look at how we can measure, an d really put some, I guess, quantifiable value on, y ou know, these places and spaces that foster connections. Now, when we presented in Canberra, uh , a f ew months ago, you shared some really lovely stories about libraries and their important role in communities. So can you just, can you share them again, just super quickly, just a couple of them?

Johanna Garnett:

Yeah, sure. So I've often said libraries play a really vital role in the heart of community . So they're kind of the last place I think where you can go and everybody's welcome, right? There's no judgment when you walk through the door. Uh, you can see that whenever you walk in a library, there's such a, a wide variety of people from all different types of backgrounds. And it's the last place I think, where you can go, nothing's expected of you. And so for me , they've always played quite a real important part and an important role in, in my life. But as we s ay, like even recently there's b een, t here's still kind of attacks going on, if you like, so there's still a a t r isk. And we've seen that even recently at the British Library at the back en d o f, 20 23, they had a massive cyber attack, a nd they'll end up s pe n ding lik e 40% of their financial reserves just trying to recover from it. And that wasn't an isolated case. The same group targeted other cultural institutions like the Metropolitan Opera in New York and the Natural History Museum in Berlin. And of course there's lots of implications, f rom that type of attack on th e l ibrary, and of course, even in Liverpool in the UK during the social unrest recently following, th e tragic incident with, with the, t he dance group, th at , you know, the library was set on fire and targeted, but what we also see is the Spellow library, really the response to its, its targeting was, was just amazing. One group had set up a task to try and raise 500 p oun d s to h elp the library to restock. 'caus e it w as just been, new ly opened , but actually they e nded up raising over a quarter of a million dollars for it. And I think that's a really good example of, of how these , how libraries particularly are really valued by t he community. So they're still under threat. There are numerous examples, o bviously for, li braries within Australia, t ha t have been damaged through a variety of different natural hazards. But again, it goes back to the fact that we're not just preserving spaces. We're not just kind of s af eguarding books. We're really preserving spaces that foster connection, which are, ar e lea rning places which allow for cultural continuity. You know, they're welcoming, all inclusive, free to a cc e ss pub lic spaces and really do champion that kind of information for everybody. And so Featherstone, is a research and h e h a d a paper out and they identify kind of eight categories that describe librarians role during and a fte r a particular disaster. And, and in it they talk about them bein g inst itutional supporters, they' re coll ection managers, they' re info rmation disseminators, they' re inte rnal planners, community supporters, government partners, educators and trainers and information community builders. And so all of that is really vital, I think , to what we are , are trying to do. But we've seen a lot , in terms of the role t hey play, particularly, I mean I've ta lked p reviously about some of the work, the State Library of Queensland, ha ve bee n un dertaken to help people, particularly since the 2011 floods. but also even during Covid. I mean, I spent 12 months alone in a hotel room in Melbourne during the Covid response, 'cause I was working, fo r the government at the time. But the one thing I noticed when lockdowns had e ase d the first place s peop le were going to were the cultural institutions. So the state library and t he art gallery. And I remember talking to one lady and she said, I'v e been in lockdown. Unfortunately, she'd lost her husband to C o v id quite early on in the piece. And she was stood in front of a particular picture and she said, she said, I haven't, I haven't seen this painting for months, she says, and I always used to come here with my husband. And again, another example of, you know, how she's connected, she's got an emotional attachment to it, to this particular painting. 'cause she used to go and , and look it with her husband. And she said, it's the first place I wanted to come when I knew I could go out and about, and even during the earthquake, the sort of the six pointer we had, people were congregate on the, on the lawn of the state library. And I think because it felt like a safe space for people as well. And there's multiple e xample, like Melbourne's Yarra Plenty Library, they had over 8,000 library members that were over the age of 70. And the librarians took home the phone numbers of these people and would ring them to make sure they were okay during , those k ind o f lockdown periods. We've certainly seen in the Lismore floods very famous images of the powers of the library books, b e ing, having to be ing c h ucked o u t o f t he windows there. the Southern Cross University on the Li smore campus became a major evacuation center for flood eff ect, f lood aff ected, r es idents. and then of course we see all of our local libraries do a lot of things around bushfire preparedness. So a lot of them will hold bushfire planning sessions to things like story time or r hyme time base d upon fire safety and home safety type messaging. they usually help people digitize family photographs, which of course is a, is a great way to kind of make sure you've at least got a digital copy of something in South Australia. Campbelltown recently received , funding again, t hrough the SAFECOM, gr ant program to open their libraries of co o l re fuge during heat waves, w hi ch we found to be exceptionally popular and people took that all . B ut you kno w, I me a n even on on a global level, li br arians from around the world forme d the Librarian Reserve Corps and they were charged with helping the World Health organisation to manage the massive amount of information related to the pandemic. And then you've got the National Library of Australia do, o ra l history projects, which captures people's experiences and responses to the pandemic. But there are multiple examples of other libraries and museums across Australia capturing local community experiences. and then we've even had people like the French National Library who actually helped the community of Marysville following the fires, uh, t o, th ey actually had some things in storage which were related to Marysville. And so they're very kindly sent that over when Marysville were trying to restore the, the cultural heritage that they'd actually lost , during the bush fires. So I think as, I think as we kind of m ove forward, there are multiple examples of how libraries particularly have really been a ssisting our communities right across the DRR spectrum. but also, you know, as we move into that kind of era of reduced face-to-face assistance, u h, fo r a variety of particular things, you know, libraries are really becoming the first point of contact for people, w it h a lot of different needs. And so really would in the DRR sense, really play a kind of vital role in, you know, accessing particular grants, disaster payments, insurance claims, and so on and so forth. So yeah, obviously a big mass ive fan of libraries and the roll out the y pla y. I could talk about it for weeks on end.

Renae Hanvin:

I was gonna say, we might have to do another podcast coming up just focused on , your passion for libraries. So can I ask Jo, my final two questions is always the same. So what would be the two things you'd like to be done differently in the disaster space?

Johanna Garnett:

Oh my God, only two. < laugh>. Okay. So I would say, so anybody who knows me and has met me k now, knows I'm a big fan of the coffee and cake principle. And so one of the biggest things I think I 've l earned in this sector over the years is that we think we're really well connected, but actually we're r eally n ot. And I 'm, you know, I'm sure like the work you've done with Daniel, you know, those bonding ties within your own sector and the people you're comfortable with is pretty strong. T hough w e're actually not so great at the bridging ties. And so I think for me it's one of those, i ssues where emergency management is pa rt o f a very complex societal system and it's very critical that we look beyond just talking to other people in emergency management. Like we are one cog in a very big large scheme of other cogs. And we really need to know what is going on in other space because what happens in one area inevitably impacts upon another area and we can't really afford to ignore how our actions influence the broader system or how others actions affect us. And you can only do that by knowledge sharing. So if you find you are working in this space and you are sat in an office for five days a week, then you really need to be questioning yourself, I think, because you need to get out and you need to talk to people and you need to understand different sectors and you need to be able to foster those relationships so you can really broaden your own knowledge about things that may impact upon the decisions you were trying to make in the context of that emergency management piece. the other thing I'd say is I really wish we'd actually, we would embrace courage a little bit more. Particularly I think , within government there can be, a bit of an attitude that's present around, well, we need to tick and flick against a particular box and well, I'll leave at f ive, right? Like, there's a little bit of that mentality I think still exists and really in order to really transform our sector to be able to face what we are facing already and we are now going to be facing even more of in the future ar ound t hat complexity in t he cascading impacts, we really need to shift our mindset. So it really needs to go beyond just me et a n d k ind of, ou r ti c k an d flick requirements or, o r wh at's part of a, a particular review or royal commission or what have you. We really need to kind of question our traditional methods that we've always done and really ask, are these the right ones to currently use to take forward? We need to have courage to make some bold decisions because we're gonna have to , uh, and that's not gonna be an option for us. So we're gonna have to develop some courage to be able to make those bold decisions. And we really need to be able to cultivate an environment where that courage is really embraced and applauded , and really sort of creativity and fresh ideas are really to be celebrated. There's no reason just ' cause we work in government, we can't be innovative and we can't be courageous, uh, and we can't do things differently. Like why, why, why can't we, you know, we're in often think we're in quite a privileged role in some regards, you know, w e have the power to kind of influence and to change things if we want within the system. So l et's try and get a little bit more courage, to be able to do that. because genuine progress does require bravery and we can't achieve progress or change by simply sticking to the status quo.

Renae Hanvin:

And I think Jo , I mean disasters are changing and we need to change too. And dare I say it, the whole focus of me starting this podcast, oh gosh, I think it was four or five years ago now, D oing Disasters Differently because we need to think different and we need to do different. So, you know, thank you for thinking different and I guess highlighting a really key part of the, yo u know, resilience ecosystem that as you say, you kn ow, it do esn't have the, probably the consideration and the inclusion and the investment that it really needs to have. So massive thank you to Johanna Garnett, who's the Manager of Disaster Resilience and Risk Reduction at the South Australian Fire and Emergency Services Commission or SAFECOM. And Jo's be en talking to me about building cultural heritage resilience. Thanks so much, Jo.

Johanna Garnett:

No worries. Absolute pleasure.

Renae Hanvin:

I hope today's episode of doing disasters differently. The podcast has inspired you to think a little bit differently about the role you can play before, during, and after disasters. Given the new era of more frequent and compounding disasters that we are now in, let's work together to build an all hazards disaster resilient future for all. Find out more about the work I'm leading as a social enterprise building disaster resilience@resilientready.org. Don't forget to subscribe to doing disasters differently, the podcast through your preferred platform. And we'll see you next time when we discover new ways of doing disasters differently together.