The Psychology of Disasters

In this week's episode of Doing Disasters Differently, Renae is joined by David Younger, a clinical psychologist and consultant to governments and communities who is deeply passionate about stress and wellbeing when it comes to before, during and after disasters. David especially recognises the double impact that business people have and how important everyday self-care is so you can thrive through the unexpected challenges. 

Transcript

Renae Hanvin (00:07):

Hello and welcome to Doing Disasters Differently: The Podcast with Renee Hanvin, which is all about inspiring you to start thinking and doing disasters a little bit differently too. In this episode, I'm talking with David Younger and we're talking about the psychology of disasters. Now, a little bit about David, and this is straight from LinkedIn. David is a Melbourne-based clinical psychologist and national disaster consultant with over 15 years experience supporting organizations, agencies, communities, as well as local and state government throughout Australia. He's been a trusted advisor after numerous events, including bushfires, floods, droughts, cyclones, thunderstorm asthma, and the pandemic. David is an honorary fellow clinical at Melbourne University and a member of the Children and Disasters Advisory Committee and an advising panel member for the Victorian State Government's DFFH Psychosocial Reference Group. His other passion is supporting individuals and small groups via coaching, mental health support, or professional consultation. 

Speaker 1 (01:18):

He uses a strengths-based approach, grounded in positive psychology, and holds the belief that everyone has a right to not only remain well, but to enhance their wellbeing. I love that. Overall, David's approach is one of calm, warmth, compassion, and curiosity. He understands that humans hold a deep capacity to connect, adapt, and grow, and recognize that this is particularly important during an era of cascading events, disruption, and uncertainty. Now, I like to start with where we met. Do you know what? I actually can't remember when it was, but I reckon it is probably close to 10 years ago that I met with David and I heard about what he was doing and we sort of crossed paths. And then I ended up going to his consulting suites, I guess you'd call them at the time, which was in Box Hill in a suburb nearby to where I was working. 

Speaker 1 (02:10):

So we met, we had a great chat. And to be honest with you, we found this passion around business people and the psychology and wellbeing of business people impacted by disasters. So I am really excited to be talking with him today. So look forward to asking him some questions in just a minute. David, I have been wanting to talk to you on my podcast for a long, long time. So I'm very excited that I'm able to chat with you today. Thanks for joining me. 

Speaker 2 (02:40):

Yeah, thanks for having me, Renee. I appreciate it. 

Speaker 1 (02:43):

Now, can you please tell me about the psychology of decision-making under stress and the connection with preparation, response, and recovery, and maybe even a little bit too about how you've got into this space or why you're doing work in this space. 

Speaker 2 (02:57):

Yeah. So maybe I'll start with that second part first, Renee, and how I ended up working in this area, which really was by default. So that goes back to about 2006 even, 2007 when I moved out of Melbourne CBD and bought a house on the rural fringe in an at risk of fire area. And then as a pretty early on psychologist, I set up a practice in two at risk of bushfire communities or towns. And then, well, Veridi, if I just fast tracked to 2009 and the Black Saturday fires here in Victoria, I ended up being one of two psychologists in one of those townships. And so I was just really caught up in the aftermath of that tragic event and lived not far at all away from where the fire stopped. So I was caught up in the community aspect as well. 

Speaker 1 (03:43):

Wow. Amazing. And then so clearly, I guess, was it that personal experience that sort of got you into an interest of the psychology of decision making under stress and connecting into the development? 

Speaker 2 (03:55):

Yeah, really good questions. Well, my initial focus was on my private practice work, which changed substantially because it all became about supporting community members to work through a disaster and significant trauma with that particular disaster. And then over time, I became more involved in the community aspect and met people and I guess moved a little bit out of the private practice space. Two interest areas developed over time though in particular. One relates to self-care and wellbeing, particularly for those that support in the disaster space because I, along with other health professionals, had personal experiences by the end of the first year, feeling very tired amongst other things. And the second one came about as a result of a project I was asked to become involved in, which had a focus on emotional preparation as opposed to physical preparation. And that project involved developing essentially a simulated bushfire experience that community members could be safely exposed to. 

Speaker 2 (04:50):

And the thinking and the theory and idea behind that was that it's very difficult to know what you're actually preparing for if you haven't experienced it before. So true. And one of the key features of disasters, any disaster, but if we just talk about fires is that there are unique sensory aspects that we probably haven't been through before until you've experienced a fire. Like community members talk about the sound of 

Speaker 1 (05:14):

747 

Speaker 2 (05:15):

Engines, for example, or they talk about the intense heat or the wind or all of a sudden it's dark. And these are factors or characteristics which can, I guess, really destabilize people, push them up into a high state of stress and will come through to decision making. And when we're in a very high state of stress as humans, actually particular parts of our brain start to shut down and go offline whilst other areas light up. And there are some benefits to that, but there are also some real problems if we're not aware of that. 

Speaker 1 (05:47):

That's so interesting because I mean, as you know, Resilient Ready, I'm all about preparedness and I always talk about, it's not about a plan on a page. It's like, that's only going to get you so far. But we do scenarios and we talk to business people about practicing what would you do and how would you evacuate? But to actually put them in that whole kind of, I guess, that moment of time around what's actually happening, the reality around them, and then what is their brain going to do? Because we could be the most organized, confident, prepared person, but when you're in that actual situation of smoke and everything else, how do you know what you're going to do? 

Speaker 2 (06:26):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, a lot of it actually comes down to luck and how well you as a human actually can respond to a high stress situation like that. So maybe if I just say that the word stress gets used a lot, maybe I'll just explain, Renee, sort of some of the background of high 

Speaker 1 (06:44):

Stress 

Speaker 2 (06:44):

Responding. 

Speaker 1 (06:45):

Please 

Speaker 2 (06:46):

Do. It connects with the decision making very importantly. So I think the starting point is to say that there's this word stress that gets bandied around a lot and we could say that one end of a line is no stress for us as humans, in which case we're probably bored and sitting around triggering our thumbs, wondering what to do. And at the other end of the scale is something like a disaster experience. A fire comes very quickly and we're sort of caught unawares. Well, in that sort of situation, our mind and our body do what they're fantastically adapted to do, which is to push us into a survival state of stress or adrenaline mode, sometimes we call it. And in that state, we are really mobilized to be able to do very particular things like we can become very, very tunnel visioned on the immediate threat and on immediate priorities, for example. 

Speaker 2 (07:36):

But in that state, we're actually not good at seeing the big picture. We're not good at making decisions. And if we think about it a little bit more technically, we know that, for example, the language centers of the brain go offline when we're in the adrenaline state. What does 

Speaker 1 (07:52):

That mean? 

Speaker 2 (07:53):

Yeah. Well, that means that actually I might be experiencing a fire and want to tell somebody to do something, but because I can't access the language centers, I can't get my words out because I can't think of the words. 

Speaker 1 (08:08):

Wow. Okay. Got 

Speaker 2 (08:10):

It. Yeah. But it even goes beyond that because too, of course, not only do we communicate in words, but we also think in words. And so when it comes to solving problems, for example, where I've put something that I might want to use to help fight a fire or deal with a flood, whatever it might be, or if a piece of equipment breaks down, I'm going to have to think about the solution in words too. 

Speaker 1 (08:35):

Wow, 

Speaker 2 (08:35):

Okay. And so if I can't access that part of the brain, 

Speaker 1 (08:39):

I 

Speaker 2 (08:39):

Can't do it. 

Speaker 1 (08:39):

All words of bother. 

Speaker 2 (08:41):

That's right. And so what tends to happen for people when that occurs, and this doesn't happen for everybody, but it definitely does happen, is people then panic. They get pushed into fear. And we know that when community members panic, they often make last minute rash decisions that they never plan to make. So that might be like driving through a firefront, for example. When we're in panic, we're not thinking clearly, rationally, and this is then where, as I say, kind of what happens after that point does come down a bit to luck. 

Speaker 1 (09:14):

Yep. And so that's so interesting. I love all these components around how preparedness and thinking and I guess the preparedness response recovery, the before, during, and after, then what happens in the after as that stress component and the connection with stress after? So you've survived and you've whatever, you don't know, I don't know, if you've lost your house or whatever it might be. So that I guess short and longer term recovery has different levels of stress, I'm guessing. 

Speaker 2 (09:49):

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess one of the most significant impacts or effects of that high stress state can be somebody having a very traumatic experience and being at risk of becoming traumatized, which is a very specific type of psychological or emotional injury. However, that happens for the smaller proportion of people too. So if we talk about what happens for the greater proportion, well, one is that, again, bearing in mind the mind and the body are so good at adjusting, they will over time, over a few days, over some weeks, maybe over a month or two, they will work to reestablish a healthy balanced state. But there's two things here. One, that doesn't always happen for everybody. Some people who have that very adrenalized fear-based response might remain in that adrenalized state for quite a few days or even quite a few weeks. I remember that after the Black Saturday fight. 

Speaker 2 (10:44):

And then let's just remember, as long as you're in that state, you're definitely not adapted to complete or involve yourself in many of the activities and tasks associated with recovery. And if you were a business owner, for example, how would you start to think strategically if the disaster's been and gone that you're still in this highly adrenalized state? There'd be a lot of decisions to make in that sort of situation. 

Speaker 1 (11:08):

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So is that then what you've just spoken about then, what is the psychological experience of recovery? Is that what that is, that experience that it's- 

Speaker 2 (11:18):

Yeah. Well, we could say that that can be the first state or stage for people, and then that following that, hopefully, and this is what we're always working to support and assist people with, we want to help them understand what's occurring for them in terms of reactions and responses, and then put in place strategies that are going to support them and help them to come down from that very high state of adrenaline-based stress, reestablish healthy functioning. But 

Speaker 2 (11:45):

This is then where the second challenge comes in, in a disaster setting, which is that if you've lost a home or you're a farmer who's lost many fences and the cattle are walking around or you're a business owner and your shop has been inundated with water, for example, you're going to have a lot of decisions and challenges to face. And most of us will know just as a part of normal everyday life, when we go through phases where there are lots and lots of challenges facing us and lots of things on, that can push just our ordinary stress levels up. 

Speaker 1 (12:19):

Oh, a thousand percent. And what I think is often forgotten in the space is that a lot of, particularly in the regional areas, people live and work there. So likely they've had their house impacted and their business impacted. So it's their life and it's their livelihood at the same time. And that's like a double ... I mean, not having a livelihood, so then you can't afford your house or you can't afford to rebuild or whatever it might be. I mean, that's a whole other level of stress. Absolutely. 

Speaker 2 (12:48):

Yeah, absolutely. It sure is. And so where this has an impact and an effect, not only in decision making, but in terms of general health and wellbeing is that, okay, well, you come down from an adrenalized state, but then you go into a chronically stressed state because there's so much to do and so much to work through. And as we well understand these days, the recovery pathway or journey is unfortunately a very long one. And then one of the other characteristics of being in stress, whether it's adrenaline or chronic stress, which we often talk about cortisol-based stress, both of those states keep us quite focused on the challenges and the problems. So that then means things like, and I'll give you an example after Black Saturday, I went to a community session about five years afterwards and the person that was talking asked everybody sitting at tables, their community members, to do a little task using butcher's paper. 

Speaker 2 (13:45):

And the task was to think back to their life through the fires and then to write down on these pieces of paper what it is they used to do that was enjoy 

Speaker 1 (13:55):

Far 

Speaker 2 (13:55):

And I gave them time out. I use this as an example of the time because I guess it just struck me so strongly at the time, but there were almost two groups of responses. One, there were the community members who couldn't remember. 

Speaker 1 (14:08):

Okay. 

Speaker 2 (14:08):

Wow. 

Speaker 1 (14:09):

Couldn't 

Speaker 2 (14:09):

Recall. And that's the effects of chronic stress on brain and memory function. And then the group of people who started to have the aha moments, they were like, "Oh, that's right. We used to go to the movies or we would go to the market or..." But we haven't done that for years. Do you remember that? And I remember a couple sitting opposite me and talking about how they would get a hotel room in the city, they'll go and have dinner, see a movie, spend Saturday in the city, and then they come back to their property. Completely forgotten about it. They 

Speaker 1 (14:38):

Hadn't done it wow. Completely 

Speaker 2 (14:40):

Forgotten. No, because the recovery life had taken over, 

Speaker 1 (14:43):

Just 

Speaker 2 (14:43):

Focused on trying to get things back to the way they were. 

Speaker 1 (14:48):

Yeah. And I think the one thing that I learned with working with Kangaroo Island over 18 months, two years, is that recovery process of people dealing with it and being able to, I guess, go through the ... I know there's the typical sort of dip that the graph that we all see, but it's really different for everyone. So there's no one size fits all. And some people might recover from some things quite quickly, but then others, again, takes years or they need these sorts of community sessions to, I guess, think about what they used to do 

Speaker 2 (15:26):

Or- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's such an important point. And this goes to, perhaps we could say the psychological experience of recovery as opposed to the psychology of decision making, but probably just bearing in mind that psychology is about the study of the human mind and behavior and therefore thoughts and emotions and motives. But then exactly as you are saying, all humans are different. We're all our own unique individuals, 

Speaker 2 (15:54):

And therefore recovery experiences are unique too, but there are commonalities that we see pop up time and time and time. Again, there are common features that exist right across the recovery cycle. So the example you gave before of business owners who have dual impacts in terms of a business and a home, I've seen this happen many times as well with business owners, and they will tend to not come through to their more personal impacts and effects until many years down the track until the business is up and running and a bit more stable. And in the meantime, their personal health and wellbeing is usually taken a dip. I spoke to a couple ones that had had their home flooded and their business flooded, and actually I spoke to them in their business as they were repairing it. This was about a year down the track, and we got talking to what their personal experience was, and it turns out they were living in a shed on their property because the home had been completely inundated, but nobody knew that was the case. 

Speaker 2 (16:50):

They hadn't really told anybody. 

Speaker 1 (16:52):

I've had so many conversations about that. And in some stages too, they wanted the business saved before the house and whether one got saved or not, but the businesses are just not, they're not on the, I guess, checklist of emergency services or the priorities, but if they lose the business and the house, again, they have to get the business up and running. And then so they'll just camp in a corner or in a tent or whatever they need to get that business happening. And some business people are five years down the track, they still haven't rebuilt their house because they can't or they don't want to or they don't know for whatever reasons. I've been advocating for business people, as you know, for a long time. And I still think there's quite a bit of work to do around that. So what's the priority for the people? 

Speaker 1 (17:38):

Yes, we say save the houses, but if they're saying save the business first, then I think we need to be looking differently at our priorities or our processes or whatnot to consider that and respect that. So talking about the business people, because we know how much I love business people. So a question, what helps individuals and communities, but especially the business people cope and function better before, during, and after a disruption? 

Speaker 2 (18:04):

Yeah. Well, I think what I'm going to mention could be applied right through communities, but absolutely applies to business communities and business people. And having worked with them, of course, previously, but I thought I'd summarize it in this way and we would do the before, during, and after. But I think an important point to make is that, well, for the before, having a good state of health and wellbeing is really crucial because everybody brings their own preexisting state of health and wellbeing, as well as their own preexisting unresolved life challenges and difficulties, however, there might be into a disaster experience. So in an ideal world, if we have got the best level of health and wellbeing as possible, and if we've got a nice balanced life with good outlets outside of work and we're well connected amongst a range of other things, then that's probably going to stand people in better stead for the very unfortunate experience of needing to go through a disaster. 

Speaker 2 (19:06):

I mean, we could talk about before in a far more detailed way, but ultimately the health and wellbeing, not only physically, but emotionally is a really important foundation as we head into a disaster, as is, of course, our connection with others. 

Speaker 1 (19:22):

And can I just ... So before we talk about the during and after, I think that's so important and really critical for small business people because I'm a small business person and we work many, many, many more hours than I would say the normal corporate person. And a lot of the time it paid under the average wage just to make ends meet and to get our businesses running. And I think we put so much passion and a lot of people, particularly again in regional areas, feel a lot of responsibility that they're employing local people who have got to pay for their families and they're delivering local services. So a lot of additional pressure and stress and I guess assumed responsibility comes on being a small business owner as well. So taking some time in the everyday business as usual to make sure that your wellbeing and your wellness and your mental capacity and you do spend some time putting into that beforehand is really critical. 

Speaker 2 (20:19):

Yeah, absolutely. I guess something I've started mentioning just over the last 12 months, particularly for those people that are very committed to others, including those in their community is, well, compassion for others is fantastic, but there are three types of compassion, and another one is self-compassion. So we could think of taking time out for myself as actually being a really important expression of self-compassion. And if I want to be around to keep helping others, supporting others, running my business in order to provide benefit for the community, I'm going to have to look after myself. Everybody has a limit and everybody hits the wall eventually. 

Speaker 1 (20:57):

100%. And I actually have a couple of mantras up on the back of my door just to remind me because yeah, same thing. I just want to help everyone else, but sometimes you've got to help yourself first so that you can help anyone else. So can you share, so what helps individuals and communities cope and function in the during and after? Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (21:14):

Yeah. Well, with the during, I thought I would just keep it short and brief and keep it to both physical and emotional preparation. So the physical preparation is what most people have some awareness or even a good familiarity with. For fires, your garden is clear, you've got a fire rate ground, hoses, all those sorts of things. Emotional preparation really is about the psychology of stress and having a preexisting awareness of the fact that I could end up in that very 

Speaker 2 (21:44):

Fear-based, adrenalized based state that I was talking about before, and that could compromise my ability to do things well. So that then means things like having a physical preparation plan that's well rehearsed. We need to have all the different components in our long-term memory so that we can just access them automatically when we're under pressure. The other thing is also a bit of a ... There's quite a few things here, Renee, but just the other one I'll mention is a bit of a self-assessment about whether you feel you can be confident in yourself to sort of keep it together and function under the pressure and stress of a disaster. And if that's not you, I would suggest making plans in line with that would be the thing to do. It's going to be a pressurized, tense, challenging situation. 

Speaker 1 (22:31):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And we talk a lot about what ifs. So having just business as usual conversations about some what ifs. So yeah, you might have a plan and yes, you might have your evacuation box, et cetera, et cetera. But if you talk about it more often and it just becomes that kind of like business as you or usual or preparedness, cultural thinking, whatever it is, just in your every day, that's really going to help you mentally, I would argue, but I'm not obviously the expert when you do find yourself in that situation. 

Speaker 2 (23:02):

Yeah, absolutely. The other example I give sometimes is our wonderful airline pilots that fly us around the country or overseas. And what's the reason that they don't panic if there's a problem with the airplane or an engine fails or something like that? Well, they get chucked in a simulator every 12 weeks and runs through lots of different scenarios so that they remain cool, calm and collected when the pressure's on. And so there is a lot to be said for having well-rehearsed habits and routines, whether that's putting everything out in your home, ready to go. The car semi-packed, even rehearsing as a family, what it's like to get to the car, thinking about what your trigger points will be to leave to the car so you get out in time or having your property set up and what your plan A, B, C, D will be, those sorts of things. 

Speaker 2 (23:48):

Logically, it means things like anticipating the stress of an emergency situation, identifying what the trigger points for me are going to be, learning how to manage stress. And that can be done by things like helpful self-talk. We need to tell ourselves that we're well-prepared and we're going to get through and I've put a lot of effort and energy into this, or we know what our plan is, 

Speaker 2 (24:09):

For example. So that those things can be done. And the after, maybe I should go to that, the after a disaster, I think was the next part. 

Speaker 1 (24:16):

Yeah, definitely, definitely. 

Speaker 2 (24:19):

Yeah. So I usually mention to people in terms of what helps people, well, to keep it relatively simple and straightforward, I guess, is to not let the recovery life take over life entirely, not let your life become all about recovering. Is that harder to do, I guess, in practice, but it means things like stopping to smell aroses, keeping at sight, keeping connected with the things that are most important to you. A house will usually get rebuilt in time, but time is the thing. And during that period of time, you lose your health and wellbeing or your kids stop talking to you or become depressed because life loses its color, you've got to question what's the point. And we are great as humans at facing adversity and challenge tends to go better for us when we look at it, lean into it and very consciously think about how we're going to respond to it rather than just getting caught up in it and then starting to realize what's happened to life much further down the track. 

Speaker 1 (25:28):

And I think, and I mean, the work that we've been doing with Professor Aldrich on social capital and social infrastructure, that's why I think the invisible infrastructure in our communities of the networks, trust and cooperation between people and those places and spaces like the pub and the library and the chemist or the place of worship, et cetera, like the park, they're so central I think to the wellbeing and the stress and not, I guess, not knowing that you're in it alone, like you're part of a community and we can all be there to support each other, I think they're really important. 

Speaker 2 (26:04):

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I sort of come back to when we talk about social connection, but of course being a psychologist is that, well, we are social mammals, humans 

Speaker 1 (26:13):

Are 

Speaker 2 (26:13):

Social mammals. So we have evolved in such a way that we have a whole series of innate emotional drivers, some of which are directly linked to connection with others that promote safety, security. And we know these days that that connection has a really profound effect on our health and wellbeing and our mental health and wellbeing at a cellular level. So the connection is so, so important and then we can just sort of stand back and I guess look at it through the other lens of, well, in the aftermath of the disaster, having friends, neighbors that are there just going to voluntarily help you out or be the person to talk to or the person to share information, it's just so important. 

Speaker 1 (27:02):

Yeah, definitely. And unfortunately, my in- laws have just experienced a loss of a home in the Victorian bushfires and their experience of social capital and bonding, but in particular, bridging and linking ties has been really interesting to support them and to kind of watch their process as well. So be close to home this one. Now, I always like to end by asking the same question. So David, I'm looking forward to what you say here. What two things, and I'm sure you've got many more, but what two things would you like to be done differently in the disaster space? 

Speaker 2 (27:33):

Yeah, another great question. So here's my opportunity. Well, given the now well-identified long-term nature of recovery, it's very clear in the research, isn't it? Both in Australia and worldwide. I think the very obvious changes that need to be made, that in Australia, we develop permanent ongoing recovery support systems and services like we have, I guess in many, many other areas. We just need that for disasters now. And I guess we see this unfolding in front of our very eyes even with what's occurring at the moment, but the increasing frequency and intensity of disasters. So that's number one. Number two is not necessarily an order of priority, but another one that's very close to my heart. And that one relates to predicting the psychological safety and health and wellbeing of those that work in the disaster area. 

Speaker 1 (28:24):

Yeah. Yeah. And now we haven't even touched on that. I might have to get you back and we'll do a whole other podcast to talk about that space because that is so true. And even myself and Fiona Jaigo, former Caravan Park owner who goes around and does our workshops for the business communities and so many other emergency services and government people working in this space, there's a lot to take on. And we're in it because we want to help and we want to make others feel okay and go through the processes of recovery. But there's a lot going on if we haven't been ourselves personally impacted, but we are taking on the stories and the experiences of others as well. So I might talk to you about coming back to do another one there. 

Speaker 2 (29:02):

Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. Thank you. 

Speaker 1 (29:05):

Well, thank you so much, David Younger. Again, your details are on our website. So if anyone is looking for some help or support or programs, David works with governments, corporates, councils, anyone. He's awesome. I highly, highly rate the work that he does. He's been doing it for a long time in this space. So thank you so much, David. Really good to chat to you about the psychology of disasters and no doubt we'll talk soon and I'm definitely going to get you back. 

Speaker 2 (29:29):

Thanks, Renee. Appreciate it. 

Speaker 1 (29:41):

I hope today's episode of Doing Disasters Differently, the podcast has inspired you to think a little bit differently about the role you can play before, during, and after disasters. Given the new era of more frequent and compounding disasters that we are now in, let's work together that to build an all hazards disaster resilient future for all. Find out more about the work I'm leading as a social enterprise, building disaster resilience at resilientready.org. Don't forget to subscribe to Doing Disasters Differently Than Podcast through your preferred platform. And we'll see you next time when we discover new ways of doing disasters differently together.