The Camino Santiago de Compastela Kathleen Donnelly Israel

The Tim Heale Podcasts S3 E120 Kathleen Donnelly Israel

Wisdom on the Camino is an enjoyable book about a 70 year young widow's journey and adventures walking the Camino Santiago de Compastela (500 miles across northern Spain) solo where she shared her spiritual philosophies with those she met along the way. 

During 17 years that I took care of my disabled husband, I studied online with many enlightened thought leaders and healers. I developed some Spiritual philosophies and I shared them with those I met on the Camino Frances from St. Jean Pied de Port, France to Santiago, Spain. I had great adventures and shared this all in a book, Wisdom on the Camino. I am 72 years old. last year I walked the Camino Portugese from Lisbon to Santiago and on to Fisterra. 

Send Audience To:

This is the link to my best selling book, Wisdom on the Camino, on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09CR9MGD3

https://www.wisdomonthecamino.com

Discover The Parallel Six series, Letters from Afghanistan and The Empty Return at https://timheale.uk.

Discover Tim Heale’s books—including The Parallel Six series, Letters from Afghanistan and The Empty Return—along with his films and broadcasts. Visit https://timheale.uk and join Tim’s Despatch to keep in touch.https://timheale.uk

Transcript

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0 (1s):
The Tim Heale Podcasts, ordinary peoples extraordinary stories.

1 (7s):
Welcome to The Tim Heale Podcasts. In this episode, I'm going to have a chat with Kathleen, Kathleen, if you can tell me where you were born, because you're a lady, we won an Oscar when you were born. If you can describe what it was like, where you grew up, the schools you went to and the education that you received.

2 (28s):
Hi, I was born in San Diego, California USA. And my both my parents were born here. We're just a San Diego family. And I was, I was born in my parents, lived in a little house next door to my aunt's house and they were going to put the freeway through. So everybody had to get out. And so my parents bought their first house over in San Diego and it was a really great neighborhood. And I remember when I was three years old, I used to take a walk around the neighborhood and talk to all the neighbors and, and I enjoyed them thinking I was so cute.

2 (1m 16s):
And then when I went to kindergarten, I went to Andrew Jackson kindergarten and it was, I don't know how far, you know, it was three blocks or something. And I used to walk to school in the morning and it was, you know, we, there were two kindergartens and we were in the first kindergarten and we used to go in and they would teach us stuff and we would learn, you know, stuff. And I remember drinking orange juice or milk, whichever you liked. And, and then we would go out and play in the play yard.

2 (1m 59s):
And the first, the first kindergarten and the second king garden, we'd go out and play together. But at when the bell rang, we went to our own kindergarten and our teacher was this really sweet old lady. And it was very nice. I liked it. Then I went to first grade, my parents took me out of the public school and stuck me into the Catholic school. And so it was, was a little bit closer to my house, but across a busy street. So my parents walked us to school over there and it was anyway, we nowadays a lot of the PO Catholic schools wear uniforms, but it was before that time.

2 (2m 51s):
So we didn't have uniforms. So anyway, it was first grade and the teacher yelled a lot and my mother went and told her not to yell so much and she was not willing to do that. So my mother took me out and put me back in the public school. And so I went to the second half of first grade in the public school. And then they, they wanted me to go back to the Catholic school for second grade for first communion. And I tolerated that

1 (3m 28s):
Was it. Was it a different teacher that didn't shout quite so much?

2 (3m 32s):
Yes, it was

1 (3m 33s):
None.

2 (3m 34s):
Yes. They were both nuns, but yeah, they, they of course stuck the first grade, the first communion children in it with an, with a nun. And so, yeah, we made our first communion and then third grade I went back, I stayed at the Catholic school and then in fourth grade she put me back in the public school. And that was like, I think fourth grade is the best year of school. You're like 10 years old and you it's just great.

2 (4m 16s):
I had a wonderful teacher and she was, she in fourth grade, we studied the missions in California. We have all the California missions. And so the fourth graders study it and you, you have to make a model of a mission and bring it into school. And they still do that actually. And so we studied, it was really great. We studied the Mexican culture and we, we, they made skirts for us and the girls and we could color them with a crayon.

2 (4m 57s):
So it was a really fun, we colored it with a crayon and then we ironed it. And the, the Korean went into the cloth. That was,

1 (5m 8s):
That was clever.

2 (5m 9s):
Yeah. That was really fun. And then we had a Mexican dinner together. It was or lunch, I guess. Huh.

1 (5m 18s):
Cause I guess San Diego is fairly close to Mexico, isn't it?

2 (5m 24s):
Yeah. Right, right next to Mexico. Yeah. Yeah. And

1 (5m 29s):
I mean, there was, was there a lot of trouble across the border? Was there a lot of illegal migrants coming across or didn't you see a lot of that?

2 (5m 40s):
Yeah. I don't know. I was a little kid, so I didn't hear about that really kind of interesting is that they told us that the Mexican people sat around and they put the food in the middle and then they took their, and got food and ate it. Like everybody didn't have their own plate. But when I got married later on, my husband had some Mexican heritage and they told me that was incorrect. Everybody has your own plate.

2 (6m 21s):
But anyway, that, that was kind of interesting. At fourth grade I moved across town to another school. And so, and they were uniforms at that school. So we had, it was St Patrick's school and it was fifth grade. And that's where I kinda started remembering my school, you know, back when I was a little tiny child, I don't really remember that, that well. And so I met my, my lifelong friend, Judy Reed in, in the, at St.

2 (7m 1s):
Patrick's and anyway, so sick fifth through eighth grade, I was at St. Patrick's and the nuns taught the school. And every once in a while we would have a teacher that was not a nun. And I remember in fifth grade, was it fifth grade? Maybe it was sixth grade. I can't remember. We had a lady and her name was Mrs. Wolf or Ms. Wolf. And she got married halfway through the class and her, she married this guy named Mr. Weir. So we called her Mrs. Werewolf.

2 (7m 45s):
That was pretty novel.

1 (7m 47s):
I reckon that probably stuck for a little, for a long time,

2 (7m 51s):
Probably

1 (7m 51s):
Wolf.

2 (7m 54s):
And I remember in eight,

1 (7m 58s):
Was this an all girl school then?

2 (7m 60s):
No, it was boys and girls. Yeah. The, the, the all girls school was high school. I went to an all girls school in high school, but I remember eighth grade, we had science and I just loved science. I loved to learn about weather and the different kinds of clouds. I just loved it.

1 (8m 22s):
Was that more geography than, than science, I guess

2 (8m 26s):
It was called science. I don't know it was called science and they studied about weather and I loved it. And my dad was an artist, so I loved art too. And we, they had us listen to this. I think she had a record and she put it on and it was somebody talking about something artsy, like, you know, some castles with art on the walls and people dancing and stuff. And, and then we were supposed to make a picture that had something to do with what they were talking about.

1 (9m 6s):
Y so that could be quite a challenge, I guess.

2 (9m 10s):
Yeah. I, it was fun for me cause I love to draw. And so that was kind of it, I thought that was really different that they did that.

1 (9m 22s):
So what was the school uniform? Like?

2 (9m 26s):
It was a green skirt with some, it was plaid. So it had some red and black and white lines going this way and that way in it. And it was just like the, it had a solid back. And then at the front, it, the two little pieces of cloth went across each other. So it was kinda like, anyway, we had a white shirt underneath and this, this oh yeah. And the older girls wore just a skirt. They didn't have that top thing on it.

2 (10m 5s):
So I think I wore the top thing the first year. And then I was an older kid and I got to wear my, just with a skirt.

1 (10m 15s):
So that was identified a young ones. Was it?

2 (10m 19s):
Yeah. I think you could tell. Cause they were short too, but maybe they, they didn't want to make the bigger girls wear that thing on top, but it kept your shirt clean anyway.

1 (10m 33s):
Yeah. So move it forward. Slide it. And what was, what was your junior high like?

2 (10m 40s):
Well, that was, you know, the Catholic school went to eighth grade, so that was basically junior high here. Junior high is sixth, seventh and eighth grade. So I think the junior high kids maybe didn't wear the top on there or their skirt. That was what junior high was like, but we would go out and, you know, have lunch in the school yard. They have all these benches around the edge of the school yard. And we would sit on our benches and eat lunch, our lunch together.

1 (11m 14s):
Okay. So in Southern California, it never rains. Is it?

2 (11m 18s):
Yeah. Very seldom. We have like nine to 14 inches of rain every year. So that's not very much

1 (11m 27s):
In a week.

2 (11m 28s):
Yeah. Right. So we're, we're called the desert by the sea San Diego. We have a river down the middle of mission valley and it's called the river. That's under the ground. That's what they cause it's the rivers there, but you have to dig down to find the water,

4 (11m 51s):
Stay with us. We'll be right

1 (11m 53s):
Back.

5 (11m 56s):
If you're looking for encouragement, hope and inspiration. Think, come and join us at the chair up podcast, hosted by carer, our hunt and author and speaker Sherry swallow.

1 (12m 16s):
So there's that, there's that song in there? Well, there, the rains in Southern California

2 (12m 24s):
Hardly ever. I mean, we appreciate our rain when I, when it does rain, I'm always, cause we have a lot of tourists here in San Diego. I'm like apologizing to the tourists when it rains, but we love our rain because it's free water for the garden.

1 (12m 44s):
Yeah. So I guess you have to use a lot of water to keep your card.

2 (12m 49s):
Yeah. Like, like I don't know what your water bill is like, but ours is like $200 a month for, I mean it's $200 every other month, I guess it is. Yeah. A hundred dollars a month for our water. It's pretty expensive. They're trying to get water from the ocean. Now that back in 1949, they actually had a water purification plant here in San Diego that took the, the sea water and made, you know, fresh water for drinking out of it. But they, they found that it was cheaper to get it from the Colorado river.

2 (13m 31s):
So they made a ditch and brought the water from the Colorado river to San Diego. And, and so they sold it to Cuba and they're actually still using the same water plant over there in Cuba that we had here in San Diego in 1949. But, but anyway, now they're building us a new one because it's more expensive to get the water from the Colorado river now.

1 (14m 6s):
So what about your high school? How did you get on their school again?

2 (14m 13s):
Yes. The high school was Regina Chaley academy and it was it's, you know, I really remember a lot about that now. And I met some friends so much fun. I, the actually the freshmen sophomore and junior year in high school was really great. And then they decided to close my school before my senior year. So I had my senior ring from Regina Chaley, but I had to go to high school for my senior year because they closed it down.

2 (14m 55s):
There weren't enough girls in the school. And so they closed it down. But high school was, I mean we had nuns and we had lay teachers. That's what they call them, lay teachers. And it was a small school. And yeah, one thing I remember about high school is Kennedy died when I was in high school. Yeah. John F. Kennedy died when I was in high school. Yeah. And our six. Yeah. And so they had us all go to the auditorium and they told us, and they had, they had a TV on the stage and they were playing, you know, the news.

2 (15m 46s):
And I thought it was really interesting cause we had a lot of girls from Mexico and so many of the Mexican girls were crying because he died. And I just thought that was so wonderful that they cared so much about the president in the U S you know, I thought it was really sweet that they cried. And so, I mean, high school was great. We, we got, instead of staying in the same classroom, we got to go from classroom to classroom and we had, we didn't have one teacher all day long, which was really great because when you, if you, you know, sometimes those teachers, you have to just kind of tune out to just exist in their room.

2 (16m 38s):
But so we had the, you know, the kind ones and the, oh my gosh, gosh. Well, the, the English teacher was really wonderful. She, she was very personable and talked to us and cared about it. And so I guess that must've been my favorite one. I like Spanish class too. She was a very old lady, the nun that taught Spanish class and, and it was just charming. She would try and tell us, okay, so we're, we're saying the lesson, but when you go to Mexico, you say it like this, you know?

2 (17m 26s):
And so she was, you know, trying to help out. Yeah. She was trying to help us out. And she was lovely. I remember we, we read the Pearl in, in English class and there was, I mean was a lot of classics that we read in English class and religion class was really funny that, I mean, I'm here. I am talking probably saying a lot, but we used to, I had a friend in religion class and we would sit there and an, a priest would come and talk to us once a week.

2 (18m 15s):
And so we would buy girlfriends, sat there and made a mark every time you said, and she like had his page filled up by the end of the day, poor guy, I felt sorry for him.

1 (18m 33s):
Well, some people are afflicted with that. I say, it's very difficult. Sometimes when you're up talking about something that you, you don't know an awful lot about. So you tend to say,

2 (18m 45s):
Yeah, well I think maybe he knew a lot about religion,

1 (18m 50s):
But

2 (18m 52s):
Yeah, maybe that was it. I think that might've been a problem for him, these teenage girls, my gosh. And I mean, really

1 (19m 2s):
He in the wrong job,

2 (19m 4s):
I guess though, you needed to. Yeah. I think he was the priest who actually decided to close our school. Maybe that had something to do with it.

1 (19m 15s):
Yeah. Well, I had a lot to do with it. I guess it could have spam. Somebody else was done the job.

2 (19m 24s):
Right.

1 (19m 26s):
We could've got somebody else more qualified to go and talk to girls.

2 (19m 31s):
Yeah. Well, that's why the nuns were there. Right? You can, they didn't have to, they didn't have to pay the nuns. They could just eat them and

1 (19m 44s):
Stay with them.

6 (19m 45s):
We'll be right back. If you want to get the latest cutting edge information in the field of sports medicine, check out my new show, the sports physical therapy podcast. I'm Mike Reynolds. Each week, I feature a new interview with some of the leading and emerging experts in our field so they can share their recent research, clinical experience and best career advice. Check it out on apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast.

1 (20m 12s):
So moving on then, did you go after college? After school?

2 (20m 18s):
Yeah. My mother told me that I owed her two years of college. So I went to college and I got a two-year degree, an AA degree, associate of arts degree in art. And that was really amazing. There were things I wanted to do. So I actually got a job while I was in college. I worked at the Wienerschnitzel down the hill from the college. So it's like I would get up in the morning and I would walk three miles to school. I couldn't believe it. I walked three miles to school to save 25 cents, but I guess 25 cents was quite a bit back then.

2 (21m 3s):
I wanted that money for something else. And, and then I, I would have a PE class at, you know, like seven o'clock in the morning. So I got up and walked to school at five o'clock in the morning or five 30. And then I went to class and I had a PE class and my friend Judy was there too. We went to does city college together, San Diego city college. And then I would have my other classes and then I would go down and work the lunch break at the Wienerschnitzel. And then I would go back to school and have my afternoon classes. And then I would go back down to the Wienerschnitzel and work the dinner shift.

2 (21m 47s):
And then I came back up to school and I went, I took the evening classes too. And then my dad would pick me up at 10 o'clock on his motorcycle and take me home. So that was, yeah. So, so I, I was an art student and they didn't think that art was really school back then. They thought art was kind of like fun. And so they gave us, our classes were one unit and usually in college, the classes are three units. And so I had to take three times as many classes as other people, as my friends, because I had art classes.

2 (22m 34s):
Yeah, it is now. I mean, nowadays when I went back to school, when I was like 38 or something like that, I went back to school and to get my degree and all those classes were three unit classes then. So I had all my classes. I could take whatever I wanted because I had most of my classes that I needed already. But anyway, it was, you know, it was the, you know, the time of the Vietnam war and my boyfriend was in Vietnam and yeah. So

1 (23m 14s):
Did he come back?

2 (23m 15s):
Yeah, he did. He was a corpsman with the Marines and I met him here in San Diego. Cause we have the, the Navy hospital here in San Diego and that's how I met him. And then he went off, he went off to Vietnam and you know, I was praying for him and, and you know, he would tell me like his friend died and it was so traumatic for him. Cause he had to put his friend in a body bag, you know? And, and I was praying for his friend was named peanuts. He called his friend peanuts. So I, I was praying for his friend peanuts also besides praying for him.

2 (23m 57s):
But I did not know anyone who died in the Vietnam war. I, none of the people that I knew, maybe I didn't know a lot of people, but there was a young man from my church who, who died in the war and they, I went to his funeral even though I didn't know him because I felt so, so bad that they were over there doing that, you know, that was very traumatic for, for all of us.

1 (24m 26s):
Yeah. We we've had a lot of wars since then. And they're all traumatic, whichever way you learn. Yeah. It's just different way of doing things. Dad dies, I guess.

2 (24m 39s):
Yeah. Hopefully they're going to get smart about it soon and realize that we need to be nice to each other. And

1 (24m 46s):
Yeah, I can't see that happening really. Nobody likes Putin about

2 (24m 52s):
Right. Oh my goodness. Well, anyway, back to college, we, yeah, so I had all these art classes, which was really fun. And my gosh, I still have paintings in my house from that time that I painted in college and I met the man that I was going to marry when I was at city college to I had a boyfriend. Well, my boyfriend from that was in Vietnam. He came back and he was from Hawaii and my, my boss did not want me to marry him.

2 (25m 37s):
So, so she told Ron to ask me out. So Ron married me instead.

1 (25m 49s):
So what was your first job when you graduated from college?

2 (25m 56s):
Well, my first job when I graduated from I, okay. So I, I w the first job was, well, I was an artist, right. And so I worked at this place called Kenyon graphics, and we, we made silk screen art there. So Kenyon graphics used to make, like, you know, like if they have machines and then on the machine is a little plate and you can push the buttons below the plate. It's kind of like a plasticky plate and you can push the buttons below it.

2 (26m 40s):
And I made the art for those plates and I, I created the art and then I put it on this step machine and it stepped it into like maybe six or nine up. And then I would give it to the silkscreen people and they would make the silkscreens for it. And then they would, you know, make the panels. And that's what I did. I first job,

1 (27m 6s):
How long did that last thing, I guess that didn't really challenge it. Did it, or did you have a brief on, on what sort of design they were looking for and you have to put several designs forward before they,

2 (27m 22s):
Yeah, it was a photo. It was a photo. It was, I was, I had a photo lab. I created the art and then I took a picture of it, you know, and then I put it on the step machine and made a, a negative. And then it was quite, you know, it was so funny because I was the artist and the work wasn't very artsy, but I, so when, when, okay. So when I became a young woman and I wanted to decide what I wanted to be, when I grew up, my mother asked me, what do you want to be? And I said, I want to be a fashion designer.

2 (28m 5s):
And my mother said, well, not too many people get to be a fashion designer, maybe a better think of something else. And my dad was an artist, a graphic artist. And so I thought, well, if I want to make money and I want to be an artist, maybe I should be a graphic artist. And that's what I took in school. I took commercial art. And so that's why I was doing stuff like that. That wasn't really very creative because I wanted to be a graphic artist and those were graphics. And that's, that was the job. But it was so funny because I didn't really know that much about computers.

2 (28m 45s):
And my boss came in and said, okay, we need to, we need to make some labels. And we have this machine and here's the book. And I told him, I don't know how to do that. And he said, well, you're the artist. So read the book and make the labels. And I was sitting there crying because I didn't know how to do it. And, and so I read the book and I did it, and I was so proud of myself. Oh my gosh. I made those labels with that, with that machine, it was a machine with a little knife and it would just cut all the labels individually. It was amazing.

1 (29m 24s):
Wow.

2 (29m 28s):
So it was challenging. It was challenging because I was just like, oh man. Yeah. Cause I was the expert, right. Even though I didn't know how to do it, I was the expert. So it was my job. And after that, I went and worked at a newspaper and I did pay step at a newspaper. I think they had artists doing pay step because we actually could see what was straight up and what was crooked. You know what I mean? And although we used to use squares and triangles and stuff like that, to get everything straight, you know that if you want to be an artist and you want to have a job and you want to make some money, you're going to have to do graphic artists.

2 (30m 16s):
You know, because I mean, if you want to be a sculptor, you just got to get lucky that somebody likes your work. But if you want to go to a job, you know, you got to do graphics.

1 (30m 30s):
Well, funny she say about pay, stop. I mean, when I was in Afghanistan and I to, we were putting together a three language newspaper, and I had to do all the paste up on it. We had type up these, these bits, print them off, cut them out, paste them into the internal layout

2 (30m 57s):
With wax. Right. You used wax. Did you use,

1 (30m 60s):
I know that this, this, this, this, this was Piper on paper, sticking it down. And then, then we had to scan it to get a trace and trace, went to the printers and they made the plates from the trace. You know, it was, there was a long drawn-out process. That's for sure.

2 (31m 21s):
Yes, it was. Yes. It was. People don't realize what we did back then, but we used wax, we had a wax machine and we would take the type and stick it through the wax machine and then put it down on the, on the boards

1 (31m 37s):
Then.

2 (31m 37s):
Yes. Yeah. I have, I have all that stuff from my, from my college. And, and when I worked at the paper and I keep looking at it thinking I should throw this away, you know, but it's really history is it's history.

1 (31m 55s):
It is. And then, and if you could find a, a printing museum that take it

2 (32m 7s):
Out here,

1 (32m 7s):
Man.

2 (32m 11s):
Yeah. Cause we, everything we had to make a negative, you know, and remember in college we were using a 3m color key you need, and you had to, you had to carve it out. You know, it was yeah. Amazing.

1 (32m 30s):
Nothing easy there then. So that's why he was doing a newspaper. So it was a big multinationals or was it a local?

2 (32m 40s):
It was local. Yeah. It was local. And we were just making the, the editors look good with our, you know, we'd take what they wanted and, and paste it up for them.

4 (32m 55s):
Stay with us. We'll be right back.

7 (32m 58s):
You will have a refined drinks, beer or wine or distilled spirits, drinks. Adventures could be the podcast for you. I'm your host, James Atkinson. And each week I'm bringing you exciting guests like actor and winemaker, Sam Neill.

8 (33m 11s):
I liked the title of your podcast because wine isn't adventure

7 (33m 15s):
Delivered master distiller, Marianne eaves.

9 (33m 18s):
I grew up in a dry county, which means there weren't really bars to speak of

7 (33m 24s):
Veteran gin, distiller, Desmond pain. Some of the new genders are weird and tool front man, Maynard, James Keenan. Before I

10 (33m 33s):
Owned a winery, I'd actually had some disposable income.

7 (33m 35s):
Join me on the drinks adventures podcast,

1 (33m 42s):
I guess, working to a deadline all the time

2 (33m 48s):
Worked,

1 (33m 49s):
Came in late. And you might say you do even more pressure, I guess.

2 (33m 54s):
Yeah. I worked in the graveyard shift, you know, we had to have the newspaper done, I think by two in the morning or something so they could print it for yep. That's what I did. But you know, when my college was kind of interrupted because I got married after my third year of college and I had, you know, I got, I had five kids and then when my daughter went to college, I went back to college and got my third, my fourth year of college. And yeah. So when you, when I talk about, oh yeah, man,

1 (34m 39s):
One for every clouds,

2 (34m 41s):
Diapers for five kids for gosh sakes, you know, and yeah. So I had a little bit of an interruption there, but I remember when I was in college, I was sitting there, you know, when, when I was 38 and my daughter was 18, she went off to college and we were at the same school only. I was in the art department and she was in the engineering department and I was sitting at school one day and I, I w I was doing some homework and I saw these shoes walk by me. And I thought, well, I have shoes like that. And I looked up and there's my daughter. She was wearing my shoes that day.

2 (35m 27s):
So she wasn't in trouble. She was, it was fine. Very to wear my shoes. We had the same size feet.

1 (35m 36s):
How often did you borrow her shoes?

2 (35m 38s):
Never. Anyway, it was pretty fun. It was nice being there with her, the art department and the engineering department are right next to each other. So it was pretty cool.

1 (35m 53s):
So you should go out and have lunch together?

2 (35m 55s):
No, actually it was pretty odd that I saw her at school. She had a little car by then. She, she had a little Karmann, Ghia, little green Karmann Ghia that she

1 (36m 8s):
Drove.

2 (36m 10s):
Yeah, it was great. And she used to drive to school every morning. She was on her own sheet. It, it was so funny because after she was done with college, she wouldn't apply to general atomic to be in it. She was an aerospace engineer and she wouldn't apply at general Tomich cause she didn't get all A's because she had to work while she was at school. She was like, blaming it on me that she didn't have all A's. Cause she had to go to anyway. I'm sure. Jenna.

2 (36m 50s):
So she got a job at a different kind of engineering firm.

1 (36m 58s):
So when you left college, then you, you kinda got buried. So you, you dropped out a year, early churning kids out.

2 (37m 11s):
Yes. Yes. And I remember when I was 25 years old, I had my third child when I was 25 years old. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I'm a quarter of a century old. I just thought that was really old. And obviously since I had all those children to care for, I was pretty old.

1 (37m 35s):
Well, yeah. I would be a stay at home mum or work as well.

2 (37m 40s):
No, I was a stay at home mom. I, yeah, I was a stay at home mom. I was lucky. And yeah, my husband had a really good job and he was really good at what he did. And every time they had a layoff, they saved him. They could save 10% of the, of their workforce when they had a layoff and they always saved him. So we were very fortunate to have, you know, a good job when we were raising our kids.

1 (38m 10s):
So you stayed in the San Diego area all of that time. Did you travel much during that time?

2 (38m 16s):
Not really. I, well, when I was 18, I went to Hawaii to visit my boyfriend from Hawaii. That, that was one travel thing I did. And then when my husband was working, he, he put phone systems in and he was putting a phone system on the blue Ridge in Japan. So I got to go to Japan with him. So that was pretty cool.

1 (38m 44s):
And did you track the source when lit along with you?

2 (38m 47s):
No. What did you say?

1 (38m 51s):
Drugs kids.

2 (38m 53s):
Oh, no. My sister stayed at my house and took care of them while I was gone. So yeah. She

1 (39m 2s):
Probably result there. That was like having an extra RD Mon I guess,

2 (39m 6s):
I guess so. I mean really when we got married we didn't have much of a honeymoon. My, we got married, we wanted to get married before Christmas. So we'd have a nice long honeymoon. But my mother said, if I got married before Christmas, she wouldn't come. So we got married the day after Christmas and then we just had a weekend for our honeymoon. So, so we, yeah, I guess so, huh? Yeah, it was very interesting going to Japan. It was a lot different than the U S

1 (39m 44s):
Probably still is.

2 (39m 46s):
Yeah. Everything was small over there. Cause there's, they're on a little island. I mean, we're here, you know, in California is pretty big. We're kind of spread out a bit, but everything is, is quite compact over there. That's what I noticed about it. And it was so clean was very clean.

1 (40m 9s):
So let's come forward a little bit then let's so you, you was at college at 38 and you graduated. Did you graduate the same year as your daughter or did you solve

2 (40m 24s):
No, I, I graduated when she was a freshman actually still, you know, I just had one year to go and I didn't have very many classes to take because I had already taken all the classes when they were one unit. So I, you know, it was pretty cool. I could take whatever I wanted, you know, and, and still graduate, but I wasn't, I'm a math person. I didn't do math very well. And they make you take tests before you graduate. So the week be like for like a month before we had to take this math test, I, I took remedial math.

2 (41m 5s):
And so when I took the test, I knew how to do all those things, but I forgot it immediately afterwards. And

1 (41m 14s):
I said, cause it's a complaint and not a waste of time generally.

2 (41m 20s):
Well, I don't know, you know, because I do love to, so I wanted to be a fashion designer. And so I did, I'll actually make my clothes and my children's clothes, you know, during my life. And you need math for sewing number one, and you need math for cooking also. And I cooked quite a bit too. So those

1 (41m 43s):
Were two practical use for it.

2 (41m 44s):
Yeah. And art, you know, you have to measure stuff and yeah. So,

1 (41m 53s):
So what did you do once you got your degree then?

2 (41m 57s):
Yeah, it was very interesting because I got my degree in 1989 and that was the beginning of computer graphics. So all the stuff I learned in school were not usable anymore. Everybody had to go back to school and learn how to use a computer so they could do art. And so it didn't really, you know, I S I think I was still working at the newspaper when I graduated and I didn't, yeah, I couldn't get a job because it was all, it was all computers that, I mean, just think about it.

2 (42m 38s):
The, the first graphic program was illustrator 88 and I graduated in 89 and I was really lucky to have done an internship with a lady who was using illustrator 88. So I actually kind of knew how to do that stuff a little bit, not enough to have a job. And so I had to go back to school and I went to Platt college of computer graphic design, and I got my diploma from there also, and then I could work, but it was silly, you know, I was an artist and I mean, I wanted to be a fashion designer really, you know, and there, I was trying to make, you know, you, you go in and you work in a place and you make ads, you know, you put ads together, you know, and it was, I mean, I could do it and it was fun to make the computer do what I tell it to and stuff.

2 (43m 35s):
But,

1 (43m 36s):
So let's just explore that for a second. So you, you, you're working for an ad agency, I guess.

2 (43m 44s):
Right.

1 (43m 45s):
So how involved were you with the, they are the planning cycle. So how did you get the brief to, to come up with what design they wanted for particular product?

2 (44m 5s):
It was already designed when I got it and I was just working the computer and putting their ads together for them. I, it wasn't, it wasn't a creative job at all. They, they, they said it was, but it really wasn't. They just needed somebody who knew how to work the machine. You know, the computer put the ads together one day, one

1 (44m 30s):
Day, designed in the ad then.

2 (44m 33s):
Yeah. The salesman designed the ad. But one day I got to draw with illustrator. I got to draw a car and it was so it looked so good when I was done. I mean, I just took a car and made a template and put it on illustrator. And then I just drew around it and it looked exactly like a little cartoon car when I was done. It was so fun. And they were like, wow, how'd you do that? And I was like, well, you know, I know how to do that. You know,

1 (45m 7s):
It's just very complicated procedure.

2 (45m 13s):
Yeah. Right, right. I could've really done that all day long. It was so fun. And sheriff, I did that all day long. They would've paid me more. Right.

1 (45m 25s):
Yeah.

2 (45m 26s):
But I, I tried to get a good job, but I, it was difficult back then. I mean, everything, it, you know, you've printed out right now, nowadays you can just make things on the computer and print them out and they look great. And, but back then, it was difficult to, I mean, it was very expensive to get media, to make a portfolio. And so it went, when I went out to get a job, I had all my stuff that I had done, not on the computer. And I had, you know, it was very difficult to get a job because I needed to spend mega bucks to get my portfolio put together.

2 (46m 11s):
And I had five. I wasn't going to anyway, It was difficult. So after that, I decide I through my whole life, I always had pneumonia and bronchitis every year. And when, when I finally, my doctor took pity on me and sent me to this class and, and you learn to breathe properly. And then after I learned to breathe properly, I didn't get sick anymore. And so that was a really great thing for me.

2 (46m 52s):
And I was a graphic designer and I was in a, I actually did freelance after that while I was making things for people. And while I was a freelance graphic designer, I was in a networking group. And I heard this lady talk about breathing. And I remember my doctor, you know, got me breathing correctly. And so I heard her say breathing, and I'm like, Ooh, I want wanna, you know, I went over there and I was trying to hear what she was telling this other person. And so I found out about transformational breathing from that lady. And actually that's where my career turned.

2 (47m 35s):
So I went to this class about the breathing, and then I decided I wanted to learn how to be a facilitator of that breathing. So I went home and I told my husband, my husband was a person that never wanted to do what I wanted to do. I don't know you ever met people like that. But if I wanted to do something, he like did not want to do it. And, and so I sort of tricked him. I told him, you know, I'm, I'm going to, I want to do this breathing class. And I know I'm going to grow from it and I don't want to grow past you.

2 (48m 19s):
So would you take this breathing class with me? And he said, yes, it was so great. Cause we were really careful about our relationship. We were, you know, we really wanted to, we were trying to always make our relationship so we didn't have to get divorced. We didn't want to do that. And so we were all like, kind of careful about a relationship.

1 (48m 45s):
I mean,

2 (48m 45s):
Yeah, right. We just wanted to keep this thing going. Cause we had five kids for gosh sakes. And, and so our son, our baby boy, son was 16 years old. And the lady told us that if we bring our children, they're free. So we had to pay for me and Ron, but John was free. So we, I talked him into going, he likes said, why do you want me to do that? And I said, well, we should do. Yeah, really? Yeah. Yeah. That, that was the reason. But I said, oh, well we need to do things as a family. And he said, okay. So he came and we all became transformational breathing facilitators.

2 (49m 29s):
And so that, after that, I decided that that would be my career instead. And so, so that's what I've been doing. And also at the same time, I, I went and did another education that was in 1999. I took a course in expressive arts therapy. So they have art therapy, but they have expressive arts therapy. And so what the expressive arts are is it's like drawing and then it's poetry and it's theater and it's music, all the arts and you use them all together to help people get out of their stuck places.

2 (50m 22s):
That's what the therapy is about. So I took a course in that and it was in San Diego. And I went during the year in San Diego and then I had to go to Switzerland in the summer to everybody. They had all these schools all over the world. It was the ISIS Institute, the international school of intermodal studies. I S I S and so that was really, you know, like so cool. I had to go all, I had to go off to Switzerland every summer to go to school. And that was really delightful. And we had people from all over the world.

2 (51m 4s):
I mean, I was going to school with Jews and Palestinians and, you know, I was going to Germany and there was a guy from Ireland. There was people from Denmark and Sweden. Anyway, we all went to SaaS, be Switzerland in the summer and went to school together. That was really, really cool.

1 (51m 33s):
A lot of fun.

2 (51m 35s):
Yeah. It was a master's program. And so anyway, I didn't actually finish it because my husband got sick and we weren't, and I ran out of money, but I went for two years. It was a three-year program. So anyway,

4 (51m 58s):
Stay with us. We'll be right back.

11 (52m 0s):
Hey, everyone, Brian Nowak here host to the podcast, all things writing where we talk about everything and anything with amazing guests like Terry Brooks, Ronald Melfi, and Darren Kennedy. Did you like writing, reading or famous authors? Of course you do. Then you're going to love my podcast. Check out all things, writing and learn tips, tricks, and secrets from the pros themselves. This show is for anyone who wants to peek inside the writing world, or just find that new author to binge read, go on, check out all things, writing at apple podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts from click that link below

1 (52m 40s):
Let's come forward a bit. Because, I mean, you spent quite a lot of time looking after your husband when he became ill, then

2 (52m 47s):
Yeah. Poor guy. He was an athlete and here he got Parkinson's disease. I mean, his friends were like, oh, no, not run. You know, because he was a runner. He, he biked and he, you know, he did, he was a triathlete actually. And so yeah, he got Parkinson's disease. He, he had it for quite a while and they didn't know what it was. And finally, in 2001, they diagnosed him with Parkinson's disease. And in 2000, I think it was 2002. Can't remember that he had to leave his job because one of the problems with Parkinson's diseases, you can't write when you write, it just gets really small at the end.

2 (53m 37s):
And he had, he was supposed to document what he did in his job and he couldn't write. So he couldn't document what he did. So he had to, they had a buyout and he took it and he thought he would get another job afterwards. But the medicine they gave him make him tired. And so he couldn't get another job. And so there we were without a job and with a really tiny pension, because he had to, he was like 52. He had to quit his job. When he was 52, you don't get much of a pension, even though it was 30 years, he worked there. It wasn't very much.

2 (54m 18s):
And so that was an awful time, but he could still move around. He could still walk, but when he took the meds, he could walk when he didn't take the meds, he couldn't walk. And so he was okay for quite a few years. And then in 2010, he stopped taking the meds. This doctor came to my house and I sell negative ion clothes. And so the doctor came to my house to see the clothes. And then when he saw Ron, he was like, oh, now I know why I came here.

2 (54m 59s):
I I'm going to heal Ron. And so he wanted to take Ron off of all his meds. And all of a sudden, Ron couldn't move anymore if he didn't take his meds. So that's when he became totally disabled. And so the doctor worked with him for, for six months. I mean, we were doing coffee enemas three times a day, and I was juicing all these carrots and apples and celery and, you know, to give him that, to clean all the meds out of him. And anyway, after six months the doctor gave up.

2 (55m 39s):
And so there I was with Ron and he couldn't move. And my kids said, and the thing is that Ron was in a lot of pain from the medications. The medications made him have stenosis of the spine, you know, and he was, he was in pain all the time because of the medication. And he was fine being paralyzed. He just didn't want to be in pain. He was fine sitting there in his chair, watching cowboy movies all day long. He loved that. And, and so he didn't want to start taking the meds again. And my children said, well, you can't just leave him paralyzed.

2 (56m 24s):
And they had this surgery called deep brain stimulator. And so we decided to do that. And they said that they didn't know. I mean, here he is paralyzed. Right. I'm taking them around in this wheelchair everywhere. And, and I took him to the doctor and they, you know, about the deep brain stimulator. And the doctor said, well, I don't know if it would work, he's paralyzed. And they said, well, if we give him the medication and it, and it makes him be able to move, then the deep brain stimulator will work. So they gave him the medication. I mean, for months he hadn't been able to stand up.

2 (57m 5s):
Right. They gave him the medication like a half hour later, he stands up out of his wheelchair and walks around. So it was like, oh my gosh. Okay. So then they did the deep brain stimulator, but then it failed and he couldn't walk. And he couldn't tie. I mean, he had been able to talk before that, but the deep brain stimulator made him not be able to talk either. So it was a failed deep brain stimulator. So then I got to be a caregiver until he died, you know, just, I mean, he couldn't move, he couldn't walk, he couldn't talk and used to write, write things on his hand, on my hand, like if he wanted ice cream, he would ice C R E a M on my hand.

2 (57m 58s):
And so we could communicate. And also we had the cell phones and he could type, he could, he could type. So he would, and he had a tablet, one of those electronic tablets and I, I, I pad or something like that. Yeah. Anyway, so that was 2011. And then he died in 2018. So I got to stay home and be his caregiver. I had to quit my job. And anyway, so I, while I was on, you know, staying home, I got, I went online and I did a lot of healing, personal healing with a Lite of enlightened thought leaders.

2 (58m 51s):
And I mean, that was what, seven years I was on line doing healing with those people. And, and so I felt like I had learned some stuff and I put together some philosophies of my own synthesizing what they said. And I felt like I, I had some things that I could teach people. And anyway, so after Ron died, I mean, I thought we were going to be riding our bicycles across France in our old age and obviously not. Right. And so I had to get another dream.

2 (59m 32s):
And my, the dream I got was to walk The Camino, Santiago de Compastela. And that was, that was like, my girlfriend did it, my girlfriend, Judy, that I knew in grade school and high school and college went on The Camino and she put on Facebook all about, you know, her travels. And I thought, that's what I want to do. I want to do The Camino.

1 (59m 59s):
You fool yourself. Oh, I could do that. It's just a walk in the park in it. It's just putting one foot in front of the other and away you go.

2 (1h 0m 8s):
Yeah. Really low, low skill, low check. Yeah. I can do that one foot in front of the other.

1 (1h 0m 18s):
So how did that, did that work then? How did they actually, how did you start out as you to go with the planning? Did you have, did you carry everything with you or did you ever a pipe wielder? If you have a Sherpa,

2 (1h 0m 39s):
I got a pack. I got really great pack. I tried four packs before I got the bright one, got this really great pack. And the, the science of going on The Camino is to pack lightly. And you just take what you need and you don't, you don't need to carry food because there's food there. It's not like you're going to a third world country or anything. You know, Spain is, is a modern country and they have food there and they have places to stay. They're called Albert gays. And you go, and you walk from Albert gate to Albert gate each day. So all I needed was my sleeping bag and my clothes and you know, my toiletries and I took a few extra things because I have food allergies.

2 (1h 1m 29s):
So I brought a pot just in case I had to cook my own food. But if I couldn't find food that I could eat and I brought a titanium pot that didn't weigh very much. And so, yeah, you carry it all on your, on your back. But if you, if you can't carry it, you can actually, they'll, they'll drive it to the next place for you to, you've got people who do that, but I wanted to carry, I wanted to carry my pack.

1 (1h 1m 58s):
And when he dies, did you jump on the transport? Then

2 (1h 2m 2s):
One day, one day I, there was one day walking into Burgos is a nine mile hike on the freeway. And I was just like, no, I don't want to walk nine miles on the freeway. So I walked to Villa and then from Villa free, I took the bus to Burgos. And that was the only time I took the bus.

1 (1h 2m 27s):
Did you get many blisters?

2 (1h 2m 29s):
I did not get any blisters. I, you know, and I think if you try and go fast, you're going to get blisters. And I walked slow and you know, they, they talk about how to do that. And it seemed to me like the people that got the blisters were the ones that needed to get out of there. You know, they need to walk fast and get out of there. And I did not. I had, I mean, I gave myself three months and it only took me to

1 (1h 2m 59s):
Show you brushed it later.

2 (1h 3m 1s):
Yeah. I, you know, and I have a problem with my foot too. I have Pez canvas, which is like, you've got high arches and you're getting old and they're falling so

1 (1h 3m 13s):
Special footnotes in your shoes.

2 (1h 3m 15s):
Yeah. Yeah. I had this orthotic in my shoe and also I did Tai Chi walking, which is you roll your foot and you bring it off at the end, you bring it off the ground at the end and you put it down and you roll your foot and like that. And that was really helpful because if you're going to be slamming your feet, bam, bam, bam. All the time you're going to have, you're going to have hurt feet. So I did. Yeah. I did Tai Chi walking, which really took a lot longer also, but at least I could do it. Right.

1 (1h 3m 52s):
The two dinosaurs of slow motion did do the handbook as you went.

2 (1h 3m 58s):
No, I had my hands on my poles. I was going like this.

1 (1h 4m 2s):
So you got your pack on your back. You've got your polls and the polls actually help with taking some of the pressure off your, your hips and your knees and your ankles and your feet.

2 (1h 4m 16s):
Yeah. I really didn't know the technology. I just knew that I needed to do that. So I just got poles and, and I, yeah, I did a lot of planning. I read a lot of books and there was a, at the library by my house. They had a, a lecture about packing light for The Camino. So I went to that and they told me things I needed to know about that. So it was, it was, I just knew how to do it. I, I, I sent off, it was like in January, like Ron died in August and by January, I thought, well, if I'm going to do this, I better get it together here.

2 (1h 4m 58s):
And so I started ordering online and it was a really great time. Cause it was right after Christmas and there were so many sales, so I would get, I ordered all my huh.

1 (1h 5m 10s):
You get your bookings

2 (1h 5m 13s):
Bargains. Yes. Bargains. Yeah. Oh my goodness. So, yeah, so I, I got, there's a story in San Diego where there, I think they're everywhere. It's called REI. And I bought all my stuff online from REI. And then I bought some stuff from Amazon online, but it, if I got it and it wasn't light enough, or if it didn't fit, then I just sent it back. And so by April I had accumulated all the things that I needed and it was, so I had all the stuff I needed to go on The Camino and, and I got my airfare.

2 (1h 5m 59s):
And actually, like I say, absolutely wanted to finish no matter what, no matter what. And so that's why I just, like, I gave myself three months and actually I spent the last month over in the UK. I w I was in Edinburgh the last time. Yeah.

1 (1h 6m 18s):
And I apologize for you. <inaudible> really whatever position they're going to, where did Barra?

2 (1h 6m 27s):
Oh, well I, okay. So years ago, years ago I saw this painting at my friend's house and it was a modern painting and it had the halo behind the heads of the people. Like it was an icon and it made me think, wow, I would really like to learn how to paint icons. So I went online and there is an actually a school, an icon painting school in Edinburgh. And, but I didn't go to, you know, I found one in San Diego also. And so I went to that one. And then, then when I was going to have like a month extra over in Europe, I thought, well, I go to Edinburgh and take the icon painting classes from that lady over there.

2 (1h 7m 13s):
So there was one in France too, but I don't speak French. So I thought, I thought Edinburgh would be better.

1 (1h 7m 20s):
Yeah. I might as well been speaking Swahili up there, I guess.

2 (1h 7m 28s):
Oh my goodness. But anyway, it was very, it was very interesting because in, in San Diego doing the icon painting, we used acrylic paint. And over in Edinburgh, they use the old, they do it the old way they use no, they use the use egg Jesso, egg Jesso. So that, I mean, they take an egg and get rid of the white. Right. And they've got the, the yellow of the egg in your hand and you poke it and you squeeze the egg yolk out of that into a bowl and you mix beer with it.

2 (1h 8m 9s):
And then you mix the, the powder paints with it. And that's what they do is they, that's what they use for the paint. Isn't that amazing.

1 (1h 8m 19s):
Yeah. Smell it. So we'll go off.

2 (1h 8m 27s):
So that's what I mean. I have my icons in the, in my front room. I have this little niche where I have my icons and boy, that one that I made in Edinburgh looks really primitive compared to my ones that I made with acrylic paint.

1 (1h 8m 46s):
So not satisfied. Then we've avid immense down the, The Camino,

2 (1h 8m 59s):
What did I do after The Camino?

1 (1h 9m 1s):
Yeah. You had another guy from Portugal.

2 (1h 9m 5s):
Oh, right. I went to Portugal. Oh, well that was two years later. So The Camino, you know, like it was in 2019 before COVID that I did the first Camino, the second Camino, I went from Lisbon up to Santiago and, and it was during COVID time. And that was very exciting. Trying to find a place to stay. Cause so many places were closed and Portugal's a lot different than Spain. And so it was a tough go. It was a tough go hiking in Portugal, although it was wonderful.

2 (1h 9m 46s):
Oh my gosh, what a, what a civilization? The Portuguese, what a wonderful civilization. I just loved it. I had no idea, you know, how advanced they were in, you know, geez. Their history is, is wonderful. They were so on, on the spot, dealing with the COVID you know, they just, you know, they took care of things and that was really amazing, but like on The Camino in Spain, in 2019, I was able to go forward all the time. But in Portugal, there was such a long space between the places where I could stay.

2 (1h 10m 31s):
Sometimes I had to take the bus back to the previous, night's stay, stay there and then take the bus back in the morning to that other place and then walk, you know? So I, it wasn't, it wasn't as fun, I guess I should say it was more when I walked in Spain before COVID it was, it was just like fairy tale. So it was so beautiful and so wonderful. But I would say that when I worked during COVID in Portugal, it was difficult, but it was wonderful also. I mean, the first part of the, of The Camino goes on the same trail as the people that are walking to Fatima, it's the same trail.

2 (1h 11m 20s):
And I met so many people that were walking to Fatima that was lovely to, you know, to meet them and, and they, they were all thinking. It was wonderful to meet us too. So it was just like really great, really great. And I walked so slow that every once in a while somebody would walk slow with me, but everybody passed me up. No, I didn't. I passed one person up. There was one lady that I actually passed up. But besides that, everybody passed me up.

1 (1h 11m 53s):
And did you feel really good once you take an overtake? It,

2 (1h 11m 58s):
She was really walking slow. She was really walking slow. It was so cute. She very, she was a mountainous woman and she was just walking really slow. I mean, her boots weren't even all tied up. She was just like, walk, walk, walk. And I had to go to the bathroom a lot. So I was always going to a bar and getting a coffee so that I could use their restroom. And so the, I w I actually started walking with her for a little while, and I, and I asked her, you want to go to the bar with me? And she said, no, I got to keep walking or I'll never get there. And so I left her, went to the bar, went to the restroom, and then I went and I walked and I passed her again.

2 (1h 12m 45s):
And I was doing that all day long. I was, you know, she, she just, I guess she didn't have to go to the restroom. I don't know, but she just kept walking.

1 (1h 12m 57s):
So fro from all this adventure, then I understand you've been a little bit of a book.

2 (1h 13m 4s):
Yes. I have this book. It's a Wisdom on the Camino and a spiritual journey, sharing, forgiveness, and possibilities to inspire the rest of your life by Kathleen Donnelly Israel. And the, the cool thing about the book is, well, actually, when I got home from The Camino, I decided to write my book and I was going to just write it about all the things that I learned while Ron was ill. And I had to be on the internet in the evening. And then I, I didn't, I felt weird being all teachy.

2 (1h 13m 46s):
So I thought, well, I told all those things to people on The Camino. So I wrote my book about walking the Camino and telling people those things. So that's, that's how I wrote the book. And really my, you know, when you make a book, you make an outline and you just make lists of things. You're going to say in different chapters. That was my outline was all my teachings that I wanted to tell people. And then I just used, I just used that outline and wrote the story around it, membered, all the things that I did. And w on, on The Camino, I didn't really do a journal, but what I did was each night I went online and I told my friends what I had done each day on Facebook.

2 (1h 14m 36s):
So that was my journal. And my daughter made me a WhatsApp. And it was called. Yeah. W w it was called, well, you know, I have five kids, so, I mean, it was a group. Right. And, and she called it, mom's walk about check-in. So they wanted, they wanted me to check in. So I actually told them all the gory details. I told my friends all the good stuff, and I told my kids all the gory details of what? Well, yeah. I mean, really, you know, they were not worried at all.

2 (1h 15m 16s):
They had, they had complete faith in me and they were just glad I was doing something wonderful after all those years of staying home with Ron. Yeah. And so between all that, that's how I remembered the stories.

1 (1h 15m 32s):
Show work of people, getting the book

2 (1h 15m 35s):
It's on Amazon. I published on Amazon. I went through a self publishing school, and then I published on Amazon. So isn't that a great cover that it's got, it's got me walking forward and then it's, you know, me standing there too. Yeah. Amazon Wisdom on the Camino by Kathleen Donnelly, Israel on Amazon.

1 (1h 16m 6s):
Fantastic. Well, Kathleen I've really, really enjoyed this chat. What a story you've got.

2 (1h 16m 14s):
Thank you very much for, for giving me this opportunity to talk to you.

1 (1h 16m 19s):
No, it's, it's been an absolute pleasure.

0 (1h 16m 23s):
The Tim Heale Podcasts, ordinary peoples extraordinary stories.