No Need To Ask with Amani Duncan
No Need To Ask with Amani Duncan
The Intersection of Blackness & Queerness | No Need to Ask Conversation with Teddy Tinson
Welcome to No Need to Ask Podcast. My name is Amani Duncan and I will be your host on this journey.
On this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Teddy Tinson to discuss the topic of "The Intersection of Blackness & Queerness".
TEDDY TINSON is a contributing reporter at the New York Times and a creative consultant for Academy award winning Director Steven Soderbergh.
Previously, Tinson worked as a Fashion Assistant with the late designer Oscar de la Renta, then Vogue Magazine assistant to Mr. Andre Leon Talley, followed by contributing roles at Andy Warhol's Interview and Hello Mr. magazines.
One of Tinson's favorite articles is one he penned for the New York Times entitled "Breaking the TV Mold".
Teddy recommended the following books as suggested reading:
"Thick" by Tressie McMillian Cottom
"White Fragility" by Robin DiAngelo
"How to Be an Antiracist" by Ibram Kendi
This episode is one of my favorites. I learned so much from Teddy and I hope you do as well!
If you enjoy the podcast, please leave a review.
Happy Pride!
[inaudible][inaudible]
Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of know me to ask podcast. My name is Amani Duncan, and I will be your host on this journey. I am very excited about this episode, I think is very timely and really important. And I'm even more excited about our guests today. Teddy Tensen. He is currently a contributing reporter at the New York times. He is also a creative consultant for the Academy award winning director. Steven Sonnenburg previously Teddy worked as a fashion assistant with the late designer, Oscar de LA Renta. Then he went to Bo working with Andre Leon Talley, followed by contributing roles at Andy Warhols interview. And hello, mr. Magazines, select media that you can find some of Teddy's work is in the wall street journal w magazine GQ, New York magazine essence refinery 29. Hi, snobbery. I mean the list just goes on and on and on, and Teddy's a graduate, um, as Syracuse university. So without further ado, please welcome to no need to ask podcasts, Teddy Tennyson. Hi Teddy. Well, like I said earlier, I am so excited to have you on my little podcast. This is going to be such a great show with such a great topic. And I feel as my duty on this platform to keep highlighting stories, as you guys all know, I love to tell stories and highlights stories of people that I admire and respect. So I'm, I'm just really excited to get into this topic with Teddy, but before we drill down, um, you know, if you go to a Teddy's website, which is Teddy tensen.com, um, it's a beautiful website. Everyone. I highly suggest that you visited, but there's this beautiful home by, um, the poet Nariah Y heed. And it goes to say, given to your uniqueness, the very thing you've been fighting not to be in your whole life is the very thing that is your genius. And so Teddy, I would love to start out with you, um, telling us, like, why did you pick this poem to be kind of the centerpiece, um, you know, like the opening statement to your website?
Speaker 3:Well, thank you very much. Um, I stumbled across a poem. Uh, I want to say sometime in 2018 when I was, uh, building the site, which came out of a necessity for me to, uh, put myself out there because I've been working behind the scenes for over a decade, um, really pulling groom, um, talent, um, many of your faves faves, um, across industries. And so this would be really a way of me putting myself out there for the first time, really, and also, um, really owning the parts of myself that I've been, um, a little loath to fully embrace, including both my blackness and my queerness, because I was, um, raised to be competent and yes, I'm black and I'm proud. And I came out in my early teens and so that the struggle of it all was never really an issue. So it was only in my late twenties working in the industries that I work in, where my blackness and my queerness started to become issues, um, in the workplace in society and dating and all of these areas of life. And so that poem really just spoken to me in a way that, um, allowed me to really embrace the fullness of who I am.
Speaker 2:I love that. Wow, what a, what a journey. I'm just like, I have so many questions that I will hold just a bed because I want to dig more into your illustrious career. Um, I am a fashion file. I love all things fashion. Um, and I love the written word. So you're like the perfect combination of two of my loves and you've written for so many magazines and publications that we all, you know, keep and read on a daily basis. So I'm just curious, like, how did you know all of this come together for you as a career? I mean, it there's film, there's fashion, there's journalism. Um, you know, for me personally, I didn't strive to be in the music industry. I was always in my mind destined to be an attorney. And so I kind of fell into my career in the music industry. Um, really it's just kind of spontaneously. It was just like almost happenstance. And it, it was a combination of being at the right place at the right time. Um, that led to me actually getting my first job in the industry and the rest is history. So talk to us about, like, how did, how did all of this come together for you?
Speaker 3:It really was a divine intervention. I mean, that's still, that's the best way to put it. Uh, I studied, um, a multitude of things in school. Um, I've been a lifelong artist. I was always in acting and singing and dancing lessons growing up, um, and painting and drawing and all that stuff as well. And so it wasn't until, um, maybe middle school, what I really got into fashion. Uh, and then high school, I would design things for friends. And then in college I started, I added design to my studies. Um, but because I was at Syracuse, um, and studying other, um, classical art forms, I, the, the fashion program wasn't as robust as I needed it to be because I wasn't at like Parsons or if it, or something like that, my teachers really understood that. And they really nurtured me and encouraged me, um, to, you know, internist as quickly as possible. And so I, uh, started interning, um, with mr. Del Renta as my first internship, which was, you know, a point of divine intervention to itself. And that's credible. That's where I met, uh, sir, Andre, Leon Talley, my second week there. And we bonded because, you know, of course I was the only one. Um, and I was good and I worked hard and all those things, but, um, so I need to go liking to me and then that really just snowballed my career. So from there, um, it's really been about relationship building and about, uh, really just, you know, paying gliding one thing to the next. So I've had a, rather a nontraditional career path, partly out of necessity, but also partly because of my multidisciplinary background.
Speaker 2:So, you know, talking about fashion and diversity, do you find that there are more people of color in, um, you know, positions within fashion houses? Like, has it, what's the trajectory been from your point of view? Has it gotten better or is it still a struggle to have representation, um, in the fashion industry?
Speaker 3:That's a good question. There is still, um, a lack of equity across the board.
Speaker 1:[inaudible]
Speaker 3:Breaking the TV
Speaker 2:News mold. Um, can you talk to us about why that particular article was one of your favorites?
Speaker 3:That particular story means a lot to me because it reminded me of all the women who shaped, who I've become. Um, and so for me, it was really important to showcase, um, as objectively as possible, of course, but sunny Austin, my Wiley, and certainly to Maxwell well, because I, I think they represent three different types of black beauty they're lawyers. And they've also made these career pivots as political pundits and or analysts, um, and really just showing the breadth and the depth and the scope of who and what we are as a people and how many fashions that is and how it's all excellent and how that manifests through hair. Um, shortly while I was working on that story, that's when the air laws started to change in New York and California. I think the protective style movement over the last decade or so is really inspiring just to show case the fullness of who and what we are and how we can express ourselves through our exterior and being like Sonny said, I mean, and the articles, you know, people think if you're glamorous or if you pay attention to what you wear, how you, your hair, that you're not smart, and that's just true and mass, we have to dispel those myths as well.
Speaker 2:We're going to actually link in the description for this episode, the, um, us article, because I think it's really important for everyone to just take a, take a read because I feel it will resonate with most of our listeners. So thank you tidy for sharing that. Um, I can only assume you received a lot of positive feedback,
Speaker 3:Something to be said, and there there's sort of a precedent for this, going back to slavery. You know, the idea of Sunday's best. We always have to put our best foot forward in every aspect of our lives, just to be seen and to be heard. So it's about, I like these shoes or I like that outfit, or I like this hairdo. It's about, what's going to allow me to succeed. What's going to best set me up for success.
Speaker 2:It's so true. I remember my, my father would leave home every day in a three piece suit and tie every single day. And he worked abroad. Um, for many years he worked in Saudi Arabia and I would always ask him, why did he dressed up to go to the airport? And he said, it was just easier to maneuver and get through customs and immigrations. Um, if you had a white colored
Speaker 3:Shirt on and a suit jacket, so it, yeah. And it's so amazing, the stories of our youth that our parents pass on to us. They may not have, um, profound impact at the time that they're sharing the story. But as you mature as an adult, it definitely takes on a very different meaning and has a very profound impact in our lives. Um, I feel like we're wearing our Sunday bass or at least I'm wearing my Sunday best every day that I wake up. So I also want us to be able to show up to the airport in sweat and slides. And that would be okay too, because I think that's literally, it goes into respectability politics a bit dangerous still. You want to be able to do an ad or two, you know,
Speaker 1:[inaudible],
Speaker 3:I just want to jump right into our topic because it's going to be good. And I feel like I'm also going to walk away with a tremendous amount of learning. So the topic is the intersection of blackness and queerness. Um, can you kinda talk us through, like, what exactly is that we're living in it's American history, um, besides American history, because, you know, uh, we are American black people are American, and if you're an immigrant, then there are some cases where you're African American, but I really want to embrace blackness, you know, um, it's beautiful, black power, black lives matter, all black lives matter, et cetera, et cetera. But at the end of the day, we're American. And I think it's important in this moment that we stay that claim because so many people try to Rob us of that identity. And when we think about it, whether we're talking slavery or through the Harlem Renaissance, through the civil rights movement, and even to Stonewall riots with Marsha P Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, we've always been at the intersection of blackness and queerness. He saved us whether we're talking from a point of culture or point of policy. So a personal hero of mine is mr. BioTrust and he is for organizing the 1963 March on Washington. He was a key advisor to dr. Martin Luther King jr. And he was pushed into the shadows because he was openly gay and
Speaker 2:Mmm.
Speaker 3:You know, he was advised that he not be the face not to muddy the messaging of dr. King or the optics of that.
Speaker 2:Oh, so quick question on that. When you say he was advised, are you referring to people within the movement,
Speaker 3:People within the movement? Yes. Much like we see today with the black lives matter movement. Why we have to clarify all black lives matter, including queer and trans people. And even because often times the Sandra Blands and the Rihanna tailors are left out of the conversation right before we get to the Tony make dates or the Malaysia bookers or, or the Nina POS of the world. Um, we're still fighting in true community racism in the form of colorism and homophobia and transphobia, queer phobia, and also misogyny right into everything I'm going to say of the civil rights movement and rumor that there were people that were, uh, you know, whispering that maybe he and dr. Keeney were lovers, which isn't true, but the optics of that, um, really push him outside of it. Also coupled with the fact that he was known to, um, engage in interracial relationships. Um, so not only was he out proud, but he was also, um, invested in interracial relationships. And so that did not bode well or certain leaders within the movement, not dr. King himself, but other the front line leaders.
Speaker 2:Wow. I mean, I was, you know, I'm just going to put it out there. I was not aware of backyard until you and I talked about it, um, which speaks volumes because I'm an educated black woman, um, minimizing the voices of, of incredible thought leaders. Like Biard, um, simply because of their choices, it just, it's just like racism internally, you know, bigotry and within the race and outside of the race. And, um, it's just, I don't know. I just still, it still hits me hard when I hear stories like this. Um, because it was, it was like, he's, he's respected as, you know, a leader within the movement, but then not respected as a leader.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, think about, think about our language today. Right? Most of what is the, uh, American colloquial lexicon? I mean, they say throwing shade on the 10 o'clock news across the country. I come from Paris is burning culture where we talk about bears late. We talk about slang. You know, many of the words used by straight white men and women it's started and originated in queer black and Brown spaces.
Speaker 2:So, you know, the only thing I can connect that to his ignorance, like, I don't think they even realize where it comes from.
Speaker 3:No, because it's been so sanitized over time. Right. Delineate. And because we're forced to, because of marginalized people by and large, uh, much like my career trajectory, like we remarked on before that innovation oftentimes comes out of necessity, right. One afforded the same opportunities as our peers or white peers or whatever it may be we're forced to innovate. So by the time, you know, people were saying throwing shade, that's that's last decade, last century last,
Speaker 2:I mean, even let's just even talk about Madonna, you know, and the whole voguing Vino,
Speaker 3:Absolutely prime example,
Speaker 2:Did we even realize the origins, uh, voguing? Like I just, you know, it kinda makes me think about subconscious and even conscious biases, like, you know, are, do people, is it just some conscious or is it just okay, because one of the biggest pop stars in the world made it. Okay.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I think it's not either, or, but both as most of, you know, um, think that, you know, why isn't this book, the one that's making the change. And I'd say, because they're going to hear that message differently from alleged white woman than they will from you or me from Angela Davis or Tony Moore.
Speaker 2:Amazing, amazing. So I, you know, I want to also touch on, you know, going back in history with Bay yard, um, you know, talk to us about like the circle that, or how he used his influence. I really want people to walk away from this episode with a very clear understanding of the impact that was made, um, from a person that was deemed not appropriate,
Speaker 3:I'll be upfront. So this isn't, this isn't nothing new. Let's take it back to the DNA, the first besties, if you will, uh, or it's not the beginning, but a story of order or it's LinkedIn use and it Zora Neale Hurston, right? So black cane queer literary icons. So lincston writes Harlem is a series of poems, um, which includes a dream deferred. And this is 51 or so Lorraine Hansberry, another black and queer literary icon who was sports to I, the exploration of her own LGBTQ newness, um, is inspired and writes a raisin in the sun based on a line from one of Langston's poems. She has this son of finished work called young gifted and black. At this time, she befriends Nina Simone, Nina Simone is known as a musician, but in the early sixties, she becomes galvanized by her policy, which includes not only Hansberry, but also James Baldwin and who buy are arrested. So they're all essentially Nina Simone's peer teachers. So they're going to organizing meeting secret, uh, organizing committees and whatnot. Um, leading up to the 63 March on Washington, chlorine Hansberry dies at age 34, mine in 965. So in 68, Nina Simone having processed or grief is inspired by Hansberry's young, gifted, and black, and writes the song to be a gift in a black, which becomes an Anthem for us all. Um, and so in 2018, when I was going through my, you know, Odyssey, um, my maturation, I decided to tag on and queer, right. To highlight the intersection of all of my heroes of BioTrust and, and James Baldwin and Lorraine Hansberry ending as a mom, because that's a use of force as well, because oftentimes this information is only shared and, you know, the halls of universities and colleges, right. Um, often times they're seeing it through either a queer, a queer lens or a black lens, but rarely it better both. And they're all right. And so I really think it's important that we much like, you know, uh, the New York times is brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, Nicole, Hannah Jones shepherded the 16, 19 project of slavery and how it persists today and in impasse, every facet of society, American society, as we know it, uh, you know, I think it's time that we do that for our queer or black and queer heroes as well.
Speaker 2:I could not agree more. And thank you for just so eloquently, um, talking about this and, and, and the, you know, I love to say like six degrees of separation, how everything is connected, um, and has been connected. You know, we, we can no longer, um, ignore it, you know, it's, it's, it's part of the fabric of the black of black history and it needs to be highlighted. Um, you know, we, we, we all know what's going on, you know, um, and I also think with all the civil unrest, um, perhaps we're perhaps, um, we're at the brink of, of, of really making sustainable change. And, and I say, perhaps not to be a cynic, um, but to be a realist because you and I, and so many other black people, we we've lived this before, you know, and we know, uh, what the results have been, um, how the fervor and the anger and the excitement and passion will dissipate. Um, so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to be hopeful and encouraged, you know, um, the Supreme court ruling that just, uh, passed to, you know, uphold the 1964 civil rights act to protect gay and transgender Americans from workplace discrimination. Um, you know, seems like we're including, um, transgender, LGBTQ, uh, black Americans. Would you agree with that? Or do you feel there's still a distinct line of delineation? Um, and, uh, what can we do as a group of vocal and
Speaker 3:Powerful people to help change that? Absolutely. Why think similarly, you know, the March on Washington in 63 was so important because, but the number of civilians turned out, but also the number of old face names that turned out. So, you know, in addition to the actual March, there was a Hollywood around table that included Harry Belafonte, Sidney bossy age, James Baldwin, Charlton Heston, uh, Marlin Brando, and Joe Mackowitz. And it was really important, um, to have white allyship of grade eight list caliber, um, showcasing solidarity, right? So there's precedent for the, the allyship that we're seeing today. But again, we can't let it dissipate regarding trends, movement. I still feel like it's only LGBTQ people advocating or queer and trans people, unfortunately, because like we saw with Ayana, a Dior as the first wave of protests were happening following the gruesome murder of George Floyd. I on a Dior had, I dunno, well, 10, 20 guys on camera. So, and, you know, bar too often when I see black celebrities on Instagram live or on a nightly news program, they're mostly mentioning the shrink, the men names who have been murdered by police. They're rarely mentioning Nina pop or talking to me date, et cetera. And so I think we have a long ways to go in terms of reeducating our own community in terms of the LGBTQ experience, because I think many people still treat it as a choice or a lifestyle as opposed to it's just a state of be right. And then no, what happens within the queer community and the racism that persists there as well. I was heartening to see a couple of acquaintances gather on fire Island for a black lives matter demonstration, but in talking to them, they were somewhere where others were unaware, but happily enlightened about the exclusivity of black people on fire Island and how ironic it is to have a black lives matter demonstration when they're really black people included in the tea dances or just a weekends out. Right. So we have a lot of, it's not about calling people out as much as it is calling them in, right. Cause it's a community effort. And I think we as civilians and community organizers have much more power than we realize the power to shape and change policy.
Speaker 2:So how could someone like me
Speaker 3:Get involved? I think it's really about just like we tell our white friends, acquaintances, colleagues, et cetera, et cetera, to, you know, have these conversations at the dinner table with their families. It's, it's, it's exactly the same for us. I can get, as of now making sure that women are not erased from the black lives matter movement, just the way in which their names have tried to be erased from the civil rights movement. Right. There were so many women, I mean, we know about just one case, a point, everyone knows what was a Park's sure, but like Melia Jackson's right movement. Um, so today it really is about making sure that women and queer folk are included in the black lives matter conversation. And I think that, you know, when I've spoken to some black and Brown people, they're saying we don't have time for that, or wait to get to the queer issue. We gotta, we gotta worry about the black issue bursts. And it's like, well, I'm both things, the chicken or the egg, like I'm both all the time, whether I want to be, or, or not. Right. Which is a typical coming of age story of like, Oh, I wish I were different when you're 12, 13 or 14, you know, you just gotta embrace it. And I, black is beautiful. Queerness is exactly,
Speaker 2:Exactly. We have to stop compartmentalizing, um, you know, racist race, you know, um, uh, injustice is injustice. It doesn't have various levels, you know, um, we're in this together. So I, you know, I stand with you, I agree, 100% that the conversations need to be had. Like we talk about everything else. And even if it's uncomfortable, it doesn't matter. It still needs to be had. Um, and I also, you know, have, have counseled a lot of my brothers and sisters over the past several weeks that, you know, we also need to make sure that we're educated, that we're reading up and, and, or rereading, you know, um, you have to make sure that our community knows its history because we definitely know it wasn't taught in school, you know? Um, and not everyone went to college and decided to, you know, take an African American studies course. And it's, can't take for granted that every black person is an expert on black history. Um, we have to humble ourselves and say, you know what, as I'm recommending these books to my white friends or counterparts or colleagues, let me make sure I've read them, you know, so that I can speak from a place of not just emotion and passion, but a, but a place of knowledge. I believe it, the Baldwin who has this saying, that's like, you think you're alone in the world, or you think that your story is unique and then you read. And it's really important that we understand our history, right? Because he does not know his history under it, just to say that I feel inspired by this moment, but I also know just from historical record or that, you know, dr. King was taken out because I have a drink and he was taken out and understand that they too were a part of this fight. Well, sad. This has been such an incredible conversation. And I just thank you, Teddy, for your honesty and your authenticity and, you know, your willingness to educate, um, it's, I think it's, everyone's responsibility to speak up and speak loud about the black experience. And the black experience can not be marginalized or compartmentalized. We all are in this together and we all should be supporting each other. So before we close, um, I would love to get like, you know, what are you, what are you reading right now? Or what, you know, is a book or two that you would recommend to the listeners to read. But something that I would recommend for readers is this play by a Mary Boraca called narrative literary narrative and mass structure that or dramatic narrative, I should say that really allows the reader to immerse themselves in the story. Whereas I think sometimes they feel like it's too dense. Um, but it's an interesting two person play that
Speaker 3:Takes place. Uh, you know, in the civil rights era, let's say mid to late sixties on a subway in New York city, in which a white woman kills an upwardly mobile or striving black man. Wow. And so I think it really speaks to this moment that Amy Cooper of at all, you know, like what could happen. Um, again, there's precedent for all of this and obviously, you know, white fragility, Robin de Angelo, I would recommend, um, uh, one of the most profound books that I've read on black feminism is fig by trusting Macmillan calm. And, uh, I just think it's so important that we engage with black women thinkers. She's a brilliant sociologist. Um, and she also has this very cool podcast called here to slay with Roxanne engage, uh, which is, uh, entertaining and informative. I also love how to be an anti-racist by Abrams. I would highly recommend because it is about the action of undoing white supremacy in our everyday lives and how we hold each other accountable.
Speaker 2:Amazing, incredible, and listeners. Again, I will list this recommended reading list in the description for this episode. So Teddy again, thank you so much for this inspiring conversation. You have been an incredible guest and I look forward to offline with you more about, um, everything we've talked about because this I for one have broadened my understanding and have learned so much through this interaction. So thank you for being on today's show.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:So listeners, this is the end of a episode with Teddy. Tensen on the intersection of blackness and queerness. If you enjoyed the show, I highly encourage you to leave a review and until next time be well and be safe.
Speaker 1:[inaudible].