On this episode, Kelly is joined by Cindy Rhoades Ryan, Delta Iota, as she shares her story as a prosecutor in the State of Delaware, as well as in the federal government. She was the first female Chief Counsel at the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency and is a recipient of Alpha Sigma Alpha’s highest honor, the Recognition of Eminence Award.
On this episode, Kelly is joined by Cindy Rhoades Ryan, Delta Iota, as she shares her story as a prosecutor in the State of Delaware, as well as in the federal government. She was the first female Chief Counsel at the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency and is a recipient of Alpha Sigma Alpha’s highest honor, the Recognition of Eminence Award.
Disclaimer: This transcript was developed with an automated transcription program, spelling and grammar errors may occur.
Kelly
Welcome to the Alpha Connect sisterhood series podcast. I'm your host Kelly McGinnis Beck, national president. This podcast is all about sharing the stories of our members and our connection to Alpha Sigma Alpha. Thank you for joining us today. Today, I'm gonna welcome Cindy Ryan to the podcast. Welcome, Cindy.
Cindy
Well, thank you. I think this is very exciting. And, Kelly, I just want to applaud you for doing these. This is this is a wonderful adventure into learning more about our sisters.
Kelly
Well, thank you. It has been a lot of fun to get to hear different members stories, and I am excited to share yours. So we will start today the way we do with every guest. Tell everyone how you became an Alpha Sigma Alpha. And don't forget to mention where and what chapter.
Cindy
Well, a long time many, many years ago, I went to University of Delaware, the Delta Iota chapters and Delta Iota was only like a year or two old and I always wanted to be a sorority woman because my dad was the Beta Theta Pi at Penn State. But I always wanted to be Greek and I grew up hearing his fraternity song. And I, my freshman year, I didn't go out for rush because I was playing varsity hockey and I was at practice during the rush party. And so I went out my sophomore year. And during rush, I met Linda Mitchell and Linda Bunny Roger, who was a founding pledge at Delta Iota, they both played varsity hockey in high schools, we have something in common and we just clicked and I ended up becoming an ASA. And on of my pledge sisters, Julia Cook Cofer, the four of us have stayed very close. And I mean, like weekly contact ever since. I was initiated in February of 1974. And so the four of us, matter of fact we're having lunch, in a few weeks in Delaware. And we may not always see each other all that often all four of us together. But we do see each other a lot. So go to football game atDelaware. So that's how I became, I ended up staying. Luckily, they wanted me as well. So I became an Alpha Sigma Alpha.
Kelly
Cool. So you went through formal recruitment? And was that kind of a week long process back then? I know in some schools, it still is. So I'm curious what that was like?
Cindy
Yes. And we had four parties, as I recall, the last one being the bid party, I guess, you know, right before bidding, you had to be invited to the fourth one. We had the pearl ceremony at one of them. We had food and drink at them. There were only four sororities on campus. So it was easy to rotate around and we didn't have total was only 35. So the pledge classes weren't that big. There weren't that many women. You know what I mean? Like, not like 100 years ago, where now the chapter has like 100 of women
Kelly
I waas gonna say that's it, did say it was the early years of wind Delta after Delta was formed. So that makes sense but it's hard to imagine where the chapter is today and that being that small back then.
Cindy
A matter of fact when I graduated 1976, we left only 11 active members behind.
Kelly
Oh, boy. Well, they have certainly built it up and sustained it over the years.
Cindy
They did, I'm glad.
Kelly
So one of the things that I wanted to chat with you about and have you share is a little bit around how you have translated your sorority experience into work. And I'm going to I want to start by saying at the, I guess it was the it was the centennial convention. And I, you were the speaker in one of the lunches that we had, I don't think I've ever told you this story. And so I was sitting there and you were telling your story during that. And you talked about Gerry Cox and the two of you went to some event Gerry asked you to come and you said that you were nervous walking into the room. And Gerry turned around and looked at you and said, "Well, what does this remind you of?" And then she said, "It's just a big rush event." And you had talked about how for you that that just clicked and kind of you know, changed your perspective on things. And I have to tell you that for me, that was probably one of the most impactful stories that I had heard because it instantly that in my mind translated my sorority experience in the same way and I have you know, kind of shared that story and I help women since then translate it. But I would love for you to share a little bit more about your experiences in the chapter and how you know, they've connected into your professional life.
Cindy
Thank you, Kelly. I really liked giving that speech, I spent a lot of time on it because I wanted, particularly college women to understand that while you're sitting in meeting, and when you're going to rush parties, and you're thinking, Oh, I'd rather be doing something else. This is not a waste of time. The skill sets that you learn while you're in your collegiate chapter, definitely translate into your professional and your adult life doesn't have to necessarily be professional, your professional life or adult life. And it just helps you understand it if you understand the analogy. And so Gerry always helped me do that Gerry, 10 years older than I was, it was like having a big sister experiencing things ahead of you, and then helping you learn as well. But that experience that she had was, I was newly out of Delaware, I moved to the DC area in Northern Virginia. I didn't know, I went from a place where a lot of people knew me, you know, very comfortable. And I moved down to Northern Virginia where I only knew Gerry, and we went to a situation where she was being honored as the Washingtonian Woman of the Year, and wonderful reception by Washingtonian magazine. And I didn't know a person, and she just put in gladhands, and people went on to the lobby people either. And so we're going through this and I'm just, you know, I'm just following her and she knew I was nervous and she just turned around and said "What does this remind you of?" And I said, "Nothing." And she said, "It's like sorority rush, remember? Rotate, rotate." So Oh, oh, yeah. So as soon as I understand it and got to a comfort level that I knew what skills set to use. But there's so many examples of I was in the collegiate chapter I was in, I was an office service secretary for a while, we had a very strict advisor every Tuesday morning at 7 a.m. We had an exact board meeting with her.
Kelly
Oh my, 7 a.m.?
Cindy
7 a.m classes started at eight. So it was 7-7:50 a.m. And very strict. And I learned, you know, how to do an agenda, how to type an agenda, how to take minutes, we knew how to do bylaws. And you think, "how will you ever translate that?" When you get into the business world, the fact that you know how to have an agenda for a business meeting, and you keep to that agenda, and get input on that agenda before you finalize it, you save people a lot of time, it keeps people focused, and you get a lot of respect for that. And when I got to law school, the donor law school was very new. I mean, very, very new. And they hadn't started any types of committees are groups yet. And I was asked to start the the Honor Society. And there was myself and all men, because the school had very few women. And that and I started a trial lawyers, student groups, and we need a bylaws. And so I just sat down and said okay, I'll see the bylaws. And they were like, "what?" and I already have the bylaws that you can look at over there, and I'll set up the elections, you know what I I just set everything up. And they always say to me, how do you know how to do this, and I said well, I was in a sorority, I'm in a sorority. And they looked at me like huh? Running, running meetings, even when I was at, in some of my other jobs. I've had people who heard that I knew, was good at that, and they were in or presidents of their organizations and they would come to me and say hey, I hear you know how to be constitution and bylaws. Can you help me out?So I mean, it was a good way to help people of course. We started, Gerry and I as well as Darlin and Christy and Pam, we started the Northern Virginia alumnae chapter, you know, this was something that was just a given for us, on how to do that. You know, forming, forming something new is is an important, I think when it comes to people. I learned in college that you may not love everybody in your chapter, but you learn to respect them and you're with people that you might not have normally gone out and thought out as a friend, but to learn from respect the differences and learn, because you all have something in common, and you respect that. And, you know, in this day and age, things become I've become so divided. In sorority, you know, I think it helps me to understand different kinds of people, have to live with different kinds of people, we had a lot of, we didn't have a sorority house, but we had a lot of sisters in our dorm, and learning to live with them, and learning how to use people's strengths and learning how to avoid their weaknesses, or and helping people with their preferences. So I just learned a lot about people in sorority.
Kelly
Isn't that the truth? No. So we were talking, before I hit the record button. I believe it was your first national convention and how your roommate was from Missouri and so had never seen the ocean, which you and I take for granted being East Coast gals, and so close to the ocean. And so I always think that's an interesting connection that we have with our Midwest sisters is kind of sharing the differences. I remember when I was a consultant going out to Kansas, and it was flat and whatnot. And I was like, Okay, so this is what the Midwest looks like, because I pretty much knew the Northeast, and it's interesting to be able to share those different parts of the country with each other.
Cindy
That is true. The four Delaware sisters actually five, decided to go to the Pittsburgh convention in 1974.
Kelly
And was that your first convention?
Cindy
That was my first. I was, I just finished my sophomore year in college, and we got this great big car, great big suitcases and we went off Pittsburgh. Boy, oh my God, what a life changing experience that was I encourage every sister to go to at least one convention. It changed, like Alpha Sig, going Alpha Sig changed my life. Going to this convention changed my life. And one, I did get to meet people from all over the country.Two, I made a pledge with my other three sisters that I were We were not going to miss any conventions in our lifetime. I think I've missed two. And we were, and I, I wanted to be a national officer and but to meet people from Texas and Florida and as I went through 74,76 1980 conventions, I've met people, and then became a province director in two different locations after that. I've met so many sisters I'm still in touch with from Texas and Florida. Social media makes it easy now but then it wasn't, it was just phone calls and just seeing each other at province day or at the next convention right? I see the same people that convention. So it was fun. And then I was a province director, I was living in Delaware. I grew up in Delaware and my, my first my first chapters were Drexel and Temple. And I remember going to Drexel the first time at the city school in Philadelphia. It was very tough, I knew about Drexel, but I realized we were completely different cultures. Oh my goodness. But I had a blast with them though but that's where I met you know, I met like, it is about the Suzanne Alfonso, she president of the chapter and Kathy Burke, I was a province director. Oh, okay. And it was it was so fun because, I they got off and done their own wonderful ASA national officer service. And but we're all so close, now Kathyof course lives near me. But Suzanne and I are so close. And the other thing, I'd like to, you know, think about, that national councils national offices are real people. And they like to talk to you. They love collegians. And so I I will never forget talking with Marianne Winton, and she gave me a compliment and I thought I was going to melt. I thought that I melt into the ground. I just thought, Oh my gosh, she knows me. This is this is the convention of 74 when Gerry took notice me, which is a whole nother story for a whole nother time. It was a funny incident. And but we clicked. We're very different. But we clicked and I had to meet Deedee Francis because I had been writing reports to her for two years. And her name was Frances Francis. And I had to meet her. And Deedee and I have stayed friends all these years. And Lynne chambers was my province director and Lynne and I stayed in touch all these years. So, you know, having all those generations and realizing these are wonderful women to have as mentors, and as examples, and to just share with was a great, great eye opener for me.
Kelly
I bet. So I was gonna ask you if you had met Gerry at your first convention, or if it was at Drexel, so it was at that first convention.
Cindy
Yes.
Kelly
She was a fun lady.
Cindy
Oh, she was. Again, it was a funny story. But for some reason, she took an interest in me, and started bringing me down to DC when she was down here. And that opened the door for me, as well. Because after I had started my career, as a lawyer in Delaware, I decided I wanted to move to DC, and be a federal prosecutor,
Kelly
I was asked if she was involved in helping you make that transition.
Cindy
She was, what she did was by bringing me down a couple times a year to spend a weekend with her, it opened my eyes up the possibility. And, in general, Bori has always sort of been that, you know, I don't want to use a trite analogy, but sort of that that cushion, you know, if you fail, your sisters still love you. And they also have confidence, great confidence in you. Probably more so than you realize. And so I always felt that sorority and some of the sorority tenants and things that we've learned through our initiation service and things a lot of our phrases like Aspire, Seek, Attain, I mean, I've always tried to live Aspire, Seek, Attain and give full measure. So theory was, I just decided I was gonna move in, a colleague of mine helped me find my first job in DC, and I just picked up the car and moved
Kelly
So what made you want to go from a Delaware State prosecutor to a federal prosecutor, and if I remember correctly, you know, worked for the DEA. So I'm sure there's some interesting stories there, in addition to other places in the federal government that you worked as well.
Cindy
There are a lot of stories. DEA was quite the place. I was a Deleware prosecutor for six years, and it was a dream job, I was fortunate enough to get it. Very few women in that job, it was a little bit of culturally a little bit rough you might say, you know. Those are the days of the blocks sexual harassment and things like that. A lot of the stories there, but lots of great stories, being a prosecutor, but after a while it was, it becomes your life, you don't really have any times yourself. I thought it was time to, was single at the time and I thought I needed to move. So I decided I needed to move. So I got a job with the US Senate. And then while I was with the US Senate for a while, I moved, I went over to the Department of Justice. Again, he didn't have electronic filing to try to apply for a job. So it was hard to figure out how to get, you know your resume in front of somebody. So I ended up going over to be a federal prosecutor. And I did that for a while, but that involve more travel than I anticipated. And so an opening came over in DEA, by happenstance, my former boss in Delaware was now working at DEA and the chief counsel's office. He said it was a great job. And I interviewed and I jumped over to there. And that was great. But I wanted to say when I was a Delaware prosecutor, you know, it's just sort of like on TV, you have to get up in front of the jury, and you have to talk. And I've never been one to shy from a podium. I mean, I'm comfortable with a podium. But you know, getting up in starting off your day in front twelve stranger, you know, it's a little cold to start off with. And so, I have the right at the top, I always have my opening statement written out, you know, outlined and at the top of my page, I used to put self control, self sacrifice, self confidence, right out of the third that we have. I always wrote it in red at the top and I would look at those words. I would take a deep breath and focus and go, I'm good now, I was better. You know, I can do this. And that I put it at the top every time I did an opening statement for a trial. That's what I had at the top of my page. That's what sort of helped me warm up, you know, warm up my brain and give me the confidence to just start out strong. I came down with a federal prosecutor. I did one big racketeering case in Alexandria, Virginia, kind of precedent setting. They don't apply One It was a lot of pressure.
Kelly
Yeah, I think imagine.
Cindy
Yeah, know had to wait, had to wait, had to wait. And then I went to DEA which is not above and far more for to do operational support. And I started out as a staff attorney, and but again, my skills, my skillset from sorority really helped because lawyers often aren't trained to run meetings or to organize things. I, I started out before I was well in law school and also went to college, I worked in a law firm as what they call a gal Friday, I did hand mail running I did, I was secretary answering phones, that filing stuff a filing system. I did all kinds of stuff. I knew how to run an office I used to help run the office, I eventually became the chief counsel at DEA the first female Chief Counsel they've ever had. I was also the first chief counsel that had grown up through the ranks at the DEA and had about 60 attorneys there. We had a great time, we had a really great office. But the other funny thing, the rush party analogy was my boss. Before I was Chief Counsel, we had an annual holiday party, and it was an open house. And it involves food and beverage. And he put me in charge of it. So he says The trouble is that they can't seem to get enough people from the office to contributed the volunteer thing. But the whole building is this was headquarters. The whole building was invited. So I said okay, so I put together the party like I would a rush party, we have committees. We have a set up committees, the Food Committee, the invitation committee, the cleanup committee, and the beverage committee and the decoration committee. Everybody has a job. And I went around to each individual and asked them which they'd like to sign up for whatever they like to do. And I got everybody to sign up, and everybody to bring, make food and bring it and I bought that house. You know, how do you know how to do this? I said I'm in a Sorority. We did this authority. This is no big deal. So my reward for that was, I not only got to do the annual office party openhouse, but then I got to do the DEA annual holiday dinner dance. The hostess of a dinner dance was invited all of our embassy counterparts as well as you know, people now it's like running a wedding because I did people assignments as well.
Kelly
Oh my goodness.
Cindy
So yeah. And everybody was just like, they couldn't believe like I did events like this, but we did these in sorority I mean, this is just adult people now, you know. So, anyway, it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. But I think we take for granted some things we learned that you can really use those skills to really do even I give a neighborhood courtyard party. I organize that here in the neighborhood. Same way I have committee.
Kelly
Well, they often say you want things organized and rolled out well, you should reach out to a sorority woman.
Cindy
Yeah, Indeed, indeed.
Kelly
So you talked a little bit about in your career, being the first female in certain roles. Talk a little bit more about what that was like and the pressure and responsibility you felt being the first. I imagine you felt responsibility and pressure I should say.
Cindy
I did a little bit. Sometimes though, I honestly didn't think of myself as the first female. Other people saw me as that, I was more proud at DEA that I became Chief Counsel because I was the first person from in House Counsel office, so instead of taking an attorney from the FBI and bringing them over to DEA, and people, and also I was the first non DEA agent attorney, as Chief Counsel, and the non attorney, the non agents in DEA headquarters, do I work with a lot, I work a lot with the Intelligence Division, as well as the Operations Division. They were so excited that I was, I had come up to the rank, which gave them hope that they can actually achieve the executive rank as well. So I was excited about that. But I bet I realized that other people saw me as the first female, and that made an impression on them. I already knew the DEA agents o I didn't feel a lot of pressure as being a female, because I knew them and we, I had great relationships with the agents. I was I'm a real operations kind of person. I like being out on the streets. I like the traveling. So I, I worked with the agents when we were doing the big case, strategy and Pablo Escobar and his demise and Carlos Lehder, there's a lot of things you see on the TV programs now about those individuals. I was part of the DEA efforts at that time, I became Chief Counsel. So being a female wasn't bad at all. I really didn't have an issue with that. But I was also one of four female executives at the DEA. So I went to conferences and saying, if it was a little bit of a different culture, you might say,
Kelly
I can imagine, especially at that time,
Cindy
I also then, when I left the DEA, I went over to be the general counsel of the national geospatial intelligence agency, which most people don't know who that is. But that is a Department of Defense and an intelligence community and National Intelligence Agency. It's like the NSA that people hear about, but it's, it does imaging, it looks instead of listening, like the NSA does, and it also is almost as big as the NSA.
Kelly
So are these the folks looking at maps and like drone visuals of locations?
Cindy
Not only drones, as much as is the National satellite imaging as well, the commercial satellite, you know, has grown considerably. And it's also combining that with geospatial information. And there's so much of that now. And combining all that data, and it serves the entire federal government, though it does everything from war, support, targeting, to helping disaster relief around the world. It is, is fascinating. They have a great website, people are interested in a really good career area as well, geospatial intelligence and imagery intelligence. And it's also very scientific, a lot of engineers, a lot of bias goes into imaging, because imaging isn't just some things that you see, there's a lot of background that you don't see that is used as well. A lot of it is classified. But when I went over there, I didn't quite understand when I was selected. But the person said, it'll be good for them to have a female General Counsel until I got there. And then I realized it was a very anti female place.
Kelly
Oh, that had to be hard.
Cindy
Yes. And they were trying to get more women into the senior rank. I, you know, having been a Delaware prosecutor and being out on the street with city, county state and kind of holding your own. Being female, being harassed at times just didn't faze me. I'm not, I'm not clueless. I played softball, with all my jobs. I played softball. I play, I started softball teams and I played on softball teams. And that's a great way to bond. I drink beer. So that was a great way to bond with, with that, right? I always try to find something in common and you learn a lot when they're all drinking beer, because you're the history of a place or the history of people. And you get to know them. It's also a great intelligence source. So, I NDA, I had some difficulties within the Office. And I had a lot of trying to pull people together, there are some, some really difficult personality clashes in the office. And I had to find my way through, you know, a new agency that they just be used, how they do business, very different to law enforcement. So that was a real challenge. Again, people that have your first female, as far as I was concerned, I was just, you know, a new general counsel that people try to run circles around. I would tell my my staff, my my Counsel's Office, my lawyer sometimes would say "well I don't really want to tell them that, tell them this news, because it's not what they're looking for." And I said, "Well, if you think you're right, then we have to tell them anyway. And what are you afraid of?" They said, well, they're not going to like it. I said, "Well, let's just look at it this way at least our employees don't have guns like they did a DEA." And you know, when I was a DEA and I guess they still do that, you know, everybody as a prosecutor, everybody had a sidearm at least., if not two. Yeah, that's another cultural thing you get used to. They, you know, you when you're sitting at a meeting, if you're not used to it, it's a little uncomfortable to sit there across the table from somebody and they have a shoulder holster with a gun. And some people are uncomfortable with that. I never was I started as a prosecutor and I just I watched so many talk shows growing up because that's what I wanted to do. But you have to recognize the cultural differences. So when I went to nga, and they sometimes would go over to DEA or FBI to work on a project, I would tell the analyst before they went, I said, you might, you might see this, I don't want you to be taken by surprise. And they told me later, I'm so glad you told me I would never be expected to be sitting at a table, a person with a gun. It's funny because Tanya Brewer, you know, with an IRS Special Agent. I talked to her when she was in college, and she wanted to talk with me probably DEA. So I sort of became, I guess, a sort of an informal mentor to her she started her career and is through her career. And I used to visit her in St. Louis, when she was assigned. That was her last assignment was St. Louis. And I used to have to go out there for business, but then NGA, because we have a third of the agency about in St. Louis, it was a wonderful. So I when I would go to St. Louis, I look up Tanya, and we would get together. And we would often talk about the culture we lived in as law enforcement, it's much different than obviously others. So it's nice to have somebody to, you know, to share that with?
Kelly
Definitely. Especially I think when you're in a male dominated field, there's, ya know, something to say about having that female connection.
Cindy
There is and the one advantages, I would say when we would have these conferences and I would be like one of three at the lowest point of five women out of 80. I said at least there isn't a line in the lady room.
Kelly
Well, and thankfully, there wasn't lady's room.
Cindy
There was a lady's room. Yes, that is true. I've never had that issue, although I know some people have, but that's not been an issue. I actually work like working with men as well as women. And so I still mentor some men. And I like having a good balance of that in an office.
Kelly
So who was a mentor for you? Were your mentors, predominantly men, given that you were in a male dominated industry? Or did you also have some female mentors as well.
Cindy
I didn't really understand what a mentor was until Gerry. I would think people had helped me when I worked in the law firm as the Secretary, the partners, the two partners in the firm, there was only about 14 people. There was only one female attorney then and that was highly unusual to have a female attorney. This was in 72. I started in 72. And the he says, Let me learn. I told him, I wanted to be a lawyer. So they gave me this job. And he let me, he was telling me things that I could start writing things and drafting things. And so he kind of mentored me along the way, but some nice man. And it turned out that you know, he was the beta theta pi, like my dad. And they like that. And he shared a best friend. They didn't realize. He was kind of like a second dad. And I would say most, but when I became an attorney, aAttorney, especially trial attorneys aren't very good at mentoring. They're they're, very focused on their own caseload. And I would just say there's no mentoring. And I went on to my next job, the US Senate, no veteran, you know, kind of eat your own. Went to department of justice. One person came on board. So I'm still friends with he was sort of an informal supervisor. And we both sort of mentored each other. He's a little older. He's a little older than I am. He's in Atlanta now. But we stayed close through the years. But he, he kind of looked out for me, you might say. Then I want to DEA and they don't really understand mentoring. But I had great supervisors and what made them really good was is they trusted you with their experience. They kept tabs on what you did. They helped you if you ask for, but they gave me great opportunity to work. But I wouldn't say anybody was really a mentor, except one woman over the Department of Justice. I got into a new field of things. And that was law enforcement and intelligence sharing, classified and unclassified. So intelligence community law enforcement, now we do it, you know, now it's the thing, you know, especially 911. But then it wasn't the thing. And we had to figure out how to do it. And I got assigned to that because I was the newest one, into the DEA and the council. And it was a little scary because there was no case law and there was really no guide on this. And a woman over Department of Justice who handled intelligence of classified information for the Department of Justice for this took a liking to me and she, for some reason I couldn't understand why, and she would help me through projects, and if I was trying to do a project, she would help support that and the Department of Justice. So that was kind of like a mentor, and Gerry taught me about mentoring. She would give me advice. But what I realized that Gerry and and she, we talked about this, some years later was a mentor doesn't tell you what to do. A mentor doesn't comment on something that was good or bad that you did a mentor gives you ideas and helps you form your thoughts and encourages you when you want to do something, and have a great sounding board might give advice, but doesn't get mad if you don't take their advice. And Gerry, never got mad at me if I didn't take her advice were very different, was very different career. But she taught me how to what I would call this and laying it on the table and saying how much you pick up. You can pick up all of it, some of it, none of it. And actually, when I went to NGA my last year that NGA I decided after 10 years of being General Counsel, I wanted to be the leader development executive, which was a position I helped to start about six years before that, and I wanted to do that job before I retired. And part of that job was I started a formal mentoring program in the agency. The agency is about 500 people. I also did, started a reverse mentoring program with a with a group of employees who wanted to start that and that was really successful, the executive loves it, during reverse mentoring, that we had volunteers of employees who wanted to mentor executives. And that was very successful. And I also handled the formal coaching program for the agency where you're getting the benefit of coaches. And so I handled that, as I did on other things. But those are the three programs, I was so excited to be able to do something with that and working with younger people, as well as trying to work with executives to be more open to what you might call that 360 degree view.
Kelly
So you definitely have the opportunity to leave your mark for sure.
Cindy
Hopefully it was a positive way. But because I think I have people help me and I also might still mentor, law students, attorneys, men and women. And I'm still involved in American Bar Association, Standing Committee on law and national security. I was the chair for two years, and recently rotated off. But I'm still involved with the women and national security law, which I picked up a lot of people who need mentoring from the events that we do from those. So I still mentor in sorority, and I still mentor in my professional life, which I really find rewarding.
Kelly
Agreed. I think it's very fulfilling to have, to be able to mentor someone in addition to being mentored yourself. And it's good way to give back.
Cindy
And I encourage people, yes, it really is. And that's what Gerry, I said to Gerry one time, Jerry, how can I ever repay you? All that you've advised me, and you've encouraged me to do and given me the confidence to do. And what she said, the pay it down the road? You just mentor other people? Like why don't you know this answer?
Kelly
That sounds like Gerry
Cindy
Why don't you know the answer. But you didn't really say it like that though. But there was a tone like Well, of course you just pass it on. I went oh, okay. Well, I'm doing that. That's good. And because I like to, but I guess that was that was her way of of doing it. And hopefully it just keeps you know, moving forward.
Kelly
Absolutely. So you mentioned 911 where which agency were you in? Where were you when that happened and the impact I imagined on your on the work that you were doing since you were in the federal government at that time.
Cindy
So I was the DEA, I was the chief counsel at the time. DEA headquarters building our two, twelve story tall, all glass building directly across the highway from the Pentagon. My approximately 650 feet across the road. So as I said at my desk, I had a beautiful, beautiful view of the district. I'm not bragging I'm just saying it was a beautiful time. I would look, I my front, my front of my office with all glass and my whole side was glass. And I'm sitting at my desk. I could see half the Pentagon for my desk. I went to the window I can see the whole Pentagon and the entrance route of the plane. So in the morning at 911 I was driving into work, just as the first plane hit New York. And when I,By the time I got off to my office, I realized my assistant, Jeanette was sitting in my office with my TV on, we all had TVs and all that which I never turned on normally. And that was highly unusual. And she showed me what it happened because I kept replaying it. Sitting there, she was very upset. And I was my brain was going like is this, this doesn't look like an accident is too nice of a day. It literally looked like it was a deliberate act then I saw the second plane go in, I knew exactly what we were doing. We were dealing with a terrorist attack. And I had done some anti terrorism work with DEA does a lot of work with the terrorism group. So I would just say after we prayed, I asked Jeanette to go in and sit at her desk, which was on the interior of the floor, you know, outside of my office, and I said to her, I want you to go sit down at your desk, away from the glass. We're sitting across the street from a very big target. That's exactly what I said. So I tried to type it if anything else happened, I'll bring you in, you can see it on the TV. So I tried to concentrate on my work, but I never, I had my purse and my briefcase ready to go. I never unpacked my briefcase, my lunch or anything, I just had it ready to go. And I would try to concentrate. I just kept feeling that we were going to the plane was coming. And so I just sat there and I said to myself, this I know sounds weird. But I had this voice in my head and they kept saying to go down the stairs, get in the car and leave. The other side of my brain said, What am I supposed to tell my colleagues here that I have a premonition of the planes coming into the Pentagon. And but more importantly, my brain said you have 60 people sitting on the top floor of the building right across the courtyard. You cannot leave your people, right? You can't leave your people. Now, what does that sound like? To me, that was something I learned by going to a party at a fraternity house with your 30s after you don't leave anybody in the house, you make sure every sister gets home safely. And that's what we were taught. That's what we did. And so I kept saying you can't leave your people. So I sat there. And sure enough, the plane hit the Pentagon, the fireball, I can see from my desk, and the impact of that plane hitting the Pentagon, there was such a concussion of pretty hard, concussion boom. It took me in my chair and move and move my chair several feet backwards. I was amazed that the glass didn't break.
Kelly
I was gonna ask if the glass broke.
Cindy
But my, Matt my husband, when he heard the Pentagon of it hit he was sure I was dead because the glass is not special glass. So I helped evacuate the floor. About a half the people in the back of our building didn't even know it had been hit. We end up having some structural damage. But it didn't you know blow out any windows or anything. So I helped evacuated found some of my people. Not all of that was a lesson learned if you need to have a better evacuation routes, and you need to have a rally point. And believe it or not, DEA we didn't have any of that we did from fire, but people just went every place. It was quite chaos because all traffic was rerouted over to our area of a great size 395 all the buses, the buses normally would be at the Pentagon, but all the buses for the county were all shift over to where we were at the Pentagon City Mall. It looked, it was just crazy. The buses were just loading people and just telling them to just get on we're going to just take you west of here, we're just kind of get out of here. And then you can find your way home from there. So people were hanging out of windows and buses and oh my goodness, it was crazy. Because the smoke from the fire, from the plane burning was coming in the DEA ventilation system they had to close down the DEA. And they were closed the next day, but I had to go in. I couldn't get my car out. So I walked to Gerry's house, which is about a mile and a half away. She wasn't there, she was about 15 miles away working but her uncle lived there and let me in and I called Gerry and I told her I was there. I was just glad I didn't wear like spiky heels back then. Thank goodness it was a pretty day too. So I learned a lot so, I got there and called Jerry, I thought I was I was shaking so badly. And by the way before before I ended up walking there, the big jet fighters came, because we still don't know the extent of your your attack, right? You still don't know. And I kept thinking, where's the second plane? Where's the second plane, of course, we ended now we know where it was. It was headed of for the capital, but it was bordered by very brave people in Pennsylvania. And so, but we had these jet fighters, these FAPs came and they are booming, like, building top level all around the area. Nobody would let us inside. And now you're outside of the jet fighter, but you don't know what's coming in. Right? It was it was, it was quite an exciting time. So I wen't to Gerry's house and next thing I know her phone starts to ring, but I answer the phone for her and say ya know Cox's residence. And I started getting calls from sorority sisters because Gerry sent out an email. So people started calling me at her house going, Cindy, we're so concerned about you. Are you okay? Are you what a wonderful soroity we have. We have. I mean, Florida, Deb Dietrich called me and, and people just started calling me. And it was I was shaking so bad I couldn't even I couldn't even hold a cup of tea I, it's just a natural reaction. But if I learned that, you know, you don't leave your people. And I had to, I had some people who did not want to come back to the office because they were afraid to go to the top floor again. We had, we had psychologists come into the DEA, and literally only hour every hour, they had a group of people come into the auditorium and the psychologist to talk with them. And then we did one on one if we if if that was needed, if their symptoms prolonged, but trying to and then it also helped us professionally, I have a lot of decisions to make on sharing information. And so we did that. I also my management staff in my office came in three of them were, had been to war in Iraq, their army colonel retired, a lawyer, and they, they were determined, all of my managers came in, even though they weren't supposed to come into the building because the ventilation was down. So we're not leaving you by yourself, there's work to be done. So people show their true colors, you know, in times of stress like that, and how do you lead through a crisis? And I think Alpha Sig actually helps you do that. There's always some crisis, you know, it doesn't have to be as big as 911. But in the collegiate chapter, there's always some crisis that happens. And how do you how do you prepare for crisis? how do you lead you leads through it? How do you help others through it? everybody reacts differently, and so you'd have to be aware of that. But I think it does help you understand that and what less than that, then the DEA decided that they wanted to be part of the intelligence community. And there's a whole bunch of legal authorities to go along with that. But then I helped with that project before I left DEA pieces. And DEA became part of the intelligence community, which opened the door for them to be able to share intelligence in a different venue than they had before because they wanted to make sure all the pieces were going to be there. When you look at the whole picture, you know more about your enemy. Yeah, so that's what happened. 9-11 impacted.
Kelly
Wow.
Cindy
It was scary. It was scary. But you know, when you're in a situation, and because I had been a prosecutor and seen a lot of nasty stuff on the street, because you have to report to the crime scene for the major crime, you learn how to deal with crisis, vehicular, accidents, murders, things like that. And so this crisis was big. But when you're in the moment, you tend to be able to function very well. It's afterwards you sort of go, oh, my goodness, and you know, you have to take a breath. And you also learn to be kind to yourself. You have to look at your look after yourself before sometimes, too, you can help other people. So we don't want to forget that.
Kelly
Absolutely. Well, Cindy, what what an amazing career you've had full of rich experiences. And certainly, I love how you've weaved in how Alpha Sigma Alpha had had an influence in all of those pieces.
Cindy
Thank you I because Alpha Sigma Alpha really has, you know, it has been a wonderful, one of the most important decisions I ever made. And to stay involved, whether it's alumni chapter, or a national level or volunteer, the more you give, the more you get back. And I just encourage everybody to stay involved. Even if you don't think you have time alumnaechapter is great because you can get as much time or do is spend as much time as you as you want or not. We don't take attendance, and also to give to the foundation, even if it's just a little bit to make it a habit to give to the foundation every year, little points of the foundation, because it's important for the future of our authority. Sure, Tina, and
Kelly
I'm sure, Tanya and our foundation trustees appreciate that plug as well. So before we wrap up here, our convention next summer is in Baltimore and I think you told me that you and your for chapter three chapter sisters are all planning to be there
Cindy
We are and I think it might be Linda Boni Rogers 50th 50th. Membership time, but because of Baltimore, ya know, LJulia Hofer, one of the three there, she was the convention chair the last time we had it in Baltimore. And Linda Mitchell, and I lead the singing, they play the piano when I lead the singing as the as the meeting. So we I still have my sailor hat with ASA on it. And I'll be wearing it next summer and I have a big convention tote bag. It's ready to go. I'm ready.
Kelly
Well, I can see the four of you inspiring our collegians to, you know, really trigger their lifetime membership and kind of leverage that because I certainly know from my first convention similar to you, seeing our alumnae and their connection and just the fun that they have really made it bigger than your school, your chapter yourself. And so similar to you, I had that same kind of connection and inspiration to stay involved. So, you know, I certainly imagine that the four of you will be inspiration to some of our young collegians as well.
Cindy
I appreciate that. I hope those I love talking with collegiates, the NOVAalumnae are so excited. They are so ready. It is though. Some have been to kvetch before and some have not. So it'll be an eye opener for some of them as well. But everybody in NOVAright now is a buzz already.
Kelly
Well, we're excited to um, it's it's hard to believe it. It's just a year away. I think especially since this last convention we had to move to be virtual, given our global pandemic, it makes the next one even more exciting for us all to be in person and to see each other and hug each other and just be together.
Cindy
Yes, I agree. I agree with that a lot.
Kelly
Well, Cindy, thank you. This has been so much fun. I appreciate you coming on and sharing your stories. And I hope that you know, we get a chance to spend some more time together in Baltimore and I can hear some more of those stories when we're in person.
Cindy
Thank you. It's been an honor Kelly. It really has been.
Kelly
Well thank you and to our listeners, until next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai