Cybersecurity and Life Safety Expert | Jocelyn King

Jocelyn King  is a life-safety expert for women who has overcome serious threats to her personal, professional, and physical safety.  Today, she is the successful co-founder of a Top 10 cyber security startup, has a sought-after career coaching practice, is a trained martial arts practitioner, and is the author of the forthcoming book, “Sitting Pretty or Sitting Duck: 101 Must-Know Safety Tips for Women and the Men Who Want to Protect Them.”  In her book, Jocelyn shares real-world scenarios along with some surprisingly easy dos and don’ts for women to enhance their safety online, at home, at work, and out in the world at large. Jocelyn’s background includes successfully navigating identity theft and restoration of her own personal information, coming back stronger after being physically assaulted on a city street, and reclaiming her power after a sexual harassment case in the workplace.  In addition, Jocelyn has gone toe-to-toe in the board room with CEOs and the C-Suite during her 20-year Silicon Valley career as a senior marketing executive at Fortune 100 high tech companies.  Jocelyn was voted a Top 10 Woman in Cybersecurity in 2021 and was twice selected among the Top 20 Women to Watch.  She earned her BS degree in Organizational Development & Leadership from the University of San Francisco and an MBA from Saint Mary’s College of California.

You can purchase her book and follow her at JocelynKing.com.

***
Follow the Greg Krino Show here...
GregKrino.com
YouTube
Instagram
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn

If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a 5-star rating and friendly comment on your podcast app. It takes only a minute, and it really helps convince popular guests to join me.

If you have comments or ideas for the show, please contact me at gregkrinoshow@gmail.com.

Transcript

Ep 73 - Jocelyn King

Greg: [00:00:00] Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Greg Krino show.

Welcome everyone to the Greg Krino show, where we talk to experts and people with unique experiences. So we can learn and have some fun in the process and ultimately become better critical thinkers and better people in. Guaranteed. And for begin, please remember your five point checklist that's rate comment, subscribe, email, and share to scroll to the bottom of your podcast app.

Give me a five star rating. Also a friendly comment really helps entice the big guest to join me next, go to GregKrino.com. Scroll to the bottom and subscribe to my newsletter. I'll have those coming out about once a month in which I summarize previous shows and get to know you and get your feedback as well.

Then email your friends, tell them to do the same. That'll help us grow this audience. And then finally go to the great Kronos [00:01:00] show page on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn, actually my personal page on LinkedIn and share the show on social media. So if you can do one of those things, I'd really appreciate it.

If you can do all five, then, like I said before, you are my hero. So thank you for doing that. In today's episode, we have life safety and cyber security expert, Jocelyn. Years ago after experiencing a sexual assault and identity theft, Jocelyn vowed never to become a victim again, and to prevent others from becoming victims as well.

Since then she got into martial arts. She co-founded a top 10 cybersecurity startup and she was voted one of the top 10 women in cybersecurity in 2021. Her upcoming book is entitled sitting pretty or sitting down. 101 must know life safety tips for women and the men who want to protect them. You can order the book and follow her jocelynking.com and what that here she is.

Jocelyn king. 

Jocelyn: So I was mugged and assaulted [00:02:00] and in my twenties and I learned martial arts to learn self-defense and then and then as a professional, you know, in business, You know, I saw layoffs and risks happen. I realized there's signs and there's things conversations you're gonna have. So there's professional protections.

And then having had my identity stolen and having a neighborhood hacker, you know, break into. Network and break into my home, so I'll get into it. So just so you know, my background is threefold. So the reason I'm not just a cybersecurity expert or just a self-defense person or just a career coach is because I actually have expertise in all three.

And at the end of the day, You know, if something's going to ruin your life, it really doesn't matter which of those three it is. You want to be protecting your life from somebody else, shaking up your snow globe. That's how I look at. 

Greg: So a life safety expert, mostly for women, but you have a lot of other tips as well. I, I do like the title of your book about sitting prettier, a sitting duck, and you have [00:03:00] safety tips for women. And I'm going to come at you if you hear from a little bit of the side, but if I tell people, Hey, you know, if something happens to a woman or really anybody, my first thought is.

It's sort of an assumed that the person shouldn't have done what they did. So. Usually address it. So I go into, well, this is what you could have done to protect yourself. And if I say that I'm an asshole and a sexist, and so you could say it, it's probably a little bit easier, but it's, you know, it's true.

We want to teach people to protect themselves. And there's so many ways we can do that. Both physically and tactically. So, can you just kind of go into your original story about how you decided to do this because you did talk about a personal incident that happened to you, 

Jocelyn: right? So I was, uh, an executive in Silicon valley running marketing and sales for a high-tech company.

And I had. Uh, two incidents happen. One professionally, the FBI came calling to tell us [00:04:00] we had been hacked by a nation state and our IP or intellectual property had been stolen six months prior. And so I was like, that was scary. And then we had to protect the company and go through, what does that mean for customers and what does this mean for our competitive advantage and all of that?

And, uh, we were going to do it, you know, we handled everything ethically and I learned all. Permutations and I learned how commonplace it was, and that was the surprise. And around the same time, within the same year, I had my identity. Stolen. And I had I had a cyberstalker hack into my personal network and I even had my home broken into, so I, there was really the sense of violation in person and from afar.

And I thought, what is going on with cybersecurity and all of that, because it's one thing to have physical security and have locks on the security system in your house. But you know, that's not the world in which all the. All the bad things happen. And so after these happened, I really got into [00:05:00] learning about cybersecurity and protections and safety systems.

And there, I was amazed at how difficult it was. To find a checklist of how to overcome it and even harder to find a checklist for prevention and, you know, and I'm an avid researcher and always have been. And I, you know, I search for stuff on Google and formal resources and I kept finding a lot of ads for individual.

Tools and point solutions, but there wasn't anything comprehensive. And I thought where's that checklist of the 10 things I need to do to prevent this from happening, because I also wanted to make sure that my daughter and niece and others weren't going to have the same. And it was very difficult to find.

And I said, well, then I'm going to create it. And I went on to to Lee and that was, I was in working at Intel and moved on from Intel to then found a cybersecurity startup with the former. Uh, the former head of security for all of Microsoft itself and the security architect behind security and [00:06:00] windows itself.

And he was also a chief information officer on wall street who had protected trillions of dollars on the trading floor. So he was battling bad guys, 24 7 all day long saw, you know, far worse than I had been exposed to. And, uh, we found out. To solve cybersecurity. And we ended up, we won 10 awards is our startup, and I'm a top 10 woman in cybersecurity now.

And the company is top 10 startup. Uh, but separately I thought, you know, my passion is really about how to help people protect their life and because of my daughters and I, and my daughter and nieces, and really wanting to protect them. After I'm gone. I started writing tips. I thought I need to write things that when I see them, or when we're together, I can say, Hey, make sure you're doing this.

Make sure you're doing that. And I started sharing it with friends and they all said, you got to get this information out there. And the more I looked around, the more I realized there really is not a life safety [00:07:00] expert. And I've just started stepping into that role. And I'm now offering free tips, free weekly life safety tips for my website.

And that's w when I wrote the, I started writing the book and the book is a series of true stories of actual close calls. And then it offers three to four tips at the end. So people can think, what would I do in that situation? And then, uh, because it's called sitting pretty or sitting duck, we have the sitting pretty dues and the sitting duck don'ts that you need to follow to, you know, increase your safety and live a safer, better.

Greg: Oh, wow. That's a, yeah, that's an impressive story. You got to find the. You know, we've heard that many times. Yeah. Yeah. I'd imagine with daughters, especially, there's a lot more concerns than just, you know, your online identity, although that's a tough thing to get through as well. You know, I would like to get into the physical stuff's that scene.

I, I understand it a little bit better, but I sure would like to understand what to do to protect [00:08:00] yourself. In terms of identity theft. You know, I hear about the credit card, you know, hydro credit card number. I know the basics, but like, what are some things that the average person may not know about? Just cybersecurity?

Jocelyn: Well, I think one of the things do cybersecurity is a big word for a lot of people and there's a lot of training out there. It's hard to find basic lay person stuff. Every, you know, you can sign up for a cybersecurity class and it's kind of like you're going to it school. And that's more than a lot of people.

Can do or willing to do. And certainly more than a lot of busy working moms are able to do with kids and stuff. They're, you know, they're what they want to be learning about. The help their kids development stuff is conflicting with their ability to invest a lot of time in the learning cybersecurity.

So I just wanted to give them the tips that would make it easy, like do this and do that. So a couple of things about identity theft, one is it really helps to have. Online monitoring that tells you, you [00:09:00] know, what things are doing so you can sign up for services that are free. And some that even our benefits of memberships that you might already have, and then you can also pay for things.

And very often. Corporations offer these things to their employees. And a lot of people can take more advantage of them than they are currently. And then I, uh, I'm not an expert in what veteran is what offered is what, and what is offered to veterans, but I'm happy to get you some links as well, you know, to that.

And I think it's really important to the people take advantage of everything that they can in a preventative measure, because it really is true here. Which in time saves nine, you know, and announce it. Prevention is worth a pound of cure and all those outages are true for a reason. Yeah. 

Now, 

Greg: With your company, when that cyber attack happened, what was the first indication that something was wrong?

Jocelyn: We didn't, the FBI can call him. Okay. And it was six months after the fact. And here's one of the [00:10:00] things I've learned when you're dealing with large corporate was let's talk about ransom. Okay. So here's the thing we all know about ransomware. You know, we know what the headlines are. It's not a single event.

Everybody kind of thinks it's an event. Somebody hacks in a hacker breaks in, and they could be a nation state or a hacktivist or a. Just a professional hacking group that's makes their money this way, because this is how they make a living. And by the way, there are like $79 hacker startup kits that people can buy anywhere in the world.

And they get access to it and they, you know, and they have people that will sponsor them because bad guys only have to be right once to make a fortune. You have to be right 24 7 to protect yourself. So, uh, there's, it's, the odds are not in your favor. And so you need to put these precautions in place. But the thing about ransomware then is that by the time let's even say a corporate.

Because I are currently like on the cybersecurity startup we're selling into corporations. We don't have a consumer version right now. W by the time they've gotten in they Al [00:11:00] they sit there and they read all the confidential information and go through the IP in, and they'd gone through your network for months.

In fact there's this direct, there are studies that show that the by the time they tell you how much they're going to ransom you for, they've already been through all the emails between your boards of directors, your heads of security, and everybody finding. How much your insurance will cover and what you're willing to pay.

They already know what your non-negotiable. So they come at you with a number that they know is at the upper threshold of what you're willing to pay. And the same con is true. For any of us as individuals, by the time they have access, you know, it's like if somebody breaks into your house and read your journal and everything, they know what is going to matter to you to ransom and that's basically what's behind ransomware and for corporations these people can have.

Inside for six to nine months before a ransomware attack house. So is it a 

Greg: matter of them just getting your user ID and password? Is there some program that helps them [00:12:00] hack in, I mean, what's the physical way that they would get in or is it just, or do they literally go to like a building and spy on people and try to take pictures of their badges?

What's the way into the system. What's the most common way? 

Jocelyn: Well, first of all of the above are ways that different types of criminals will get in there. I being in Silicon valley, I remember and being in the communications profession, running PR and things like that, I would get regular alerts of here's people that have.

Hack their way into company X and company. Y I mean, they got, uh, they they don't even have to get a badge. They'll just tailgate behind them. Somebody walks through a turnstile or the security door. And so, uh, one of the things all the companies have to do is teach their employees not to allow anybody to come through, which is difficult because you're usually assuming it's a coworker walking behind you and you don't want to be the jerk who says, you know, sorry, you have to use your own badge, but that's how.

Criminals get in. And then they actually steal purses and wallets and things like that and walk out cyber criminals [00:13:00] will you know, we'll get in through the weakest link. The what cyber criminals have in their favor that we have against us is think of all the software that's used by a company.

I mean, Hundreds of different pieces of software, and many of them have to do handshakes and stitched together. And each of those has its own upgrade cycle, every, you know, so literally like every five days or some patch going out, or if not daily to something and any one of those can create a little window and all you need is a pinhole for light to come through for a professional hacker to be able to get in.

So. All the upgrades collectively and how secure your entire system is with all that going on, can't thoroughly be tested by your security team. So you're really, it's kind of like a, you know, you're really in a battle without knowing what. Where you, where are the breaks in your perimeters are? It would [00:14:00] be like not having, it'd be like losing communication with half of your field force and not knowing where everybody is.

And you don't know where you're being flanked and where the enemy might be getting in. It's the same, uh, you know, online in the cyber world. 

Greg: Wow. So I didn't know that they would physically. Break into buildings. That's brazen. I mean, 

Jocelyn: if they are, and they're on camera, they're on security cameras.

And that's the thing. Once you deal, once you realize with criminal or like, you know, we all have baseline normal. Like if you and I wanna, you know, we're like somebody, you know, Dare does or like, or they're only, you know, they're holding something, they're holding your dog hostage. If you don't walk into this building and do it, we're going to, you might do it out of, you know, out of a need, like in a, you know, in one of these, you know, you know, cyber movies or something, but you're going to feel real.

Uncomfortable and nervous and anxious. These folks have done this so many hundreds of times that it [00:15:00] means nothing to them and they've been in jail and they don't have those. So even having the cops come and arrest them, it's not a big deal. That's normal for them. And when you realize that's whatever people's baseline is that they're comfortable with, that's what they operate with them.

It's not the same as you. And that's, but that's their advantage cause they're not nervous. And so they don't have tells that you and I would have doing something that would make us feel awkward. Is there a typical 

Greg: profile of your cyber hacker? I mean, I think of the guy in his basement that just doesn't do well with women and he's down there playing Dungeons and dragons and you know, like that's kind of what I think of, but he's very smart at the computer and I just think, well, if God, if you could just dedicate more of your life towards something above board, maybe you wouldn't have.

Like, I think there's a lot more money into doing things properly than to do this, but it's like, you gotta be smart hacker. I would think so. Why not do something 

Jocelyn: more? Well, it's getting easier. Like I said, when you can buy a $79 kits kind of plug and play, you don't have to [00:16:00] be as smart as you used to have to.

Let me just put it this way. there is that, you know, like. The 20 something, you know, awkward millennial in a hood is the persona. And in fact, there's over 4,000 cybersecurity companies and, you know, over half of them use that you know, use that photo for their advertising. So there is a demographic, well, let me just even say, as a woman in cyber there's just 20% females in.

The cybersecurity industry. That's partly because what's traditionally been feeding cybersecurity, uh, as a training ground is military. And of course, military has been historically, mostly male. So, you know, at emulates the, you know, the feeding or feeding tube. So, uh, that is changing and as fighting cyber criminals becomes something that involves, uh, More and more diversity of thought and background.

So you're looking at how to solve the problem differently and getting out of group think as that sort of recruiting is happening, you're finding more and more women coming in because they're coming in [00:17:00] from financial roles and data roles, data analysis roles, and things like that. So you might have more of the same type of Myers-Briggs, but not just the same gender, you know, as much moving forward.

And so there are. You know, there are stereotypes for a reason, but there you can certainly find, you know, people that break that as well. But I will also say that the same description that you had is also fits, uh, many of the people who. Protecting us. And you know, the the guys, we'll just say for the majority who are you know, cause the 80% who were in cybersecurity as professionals and protecting our you know, I work with a lot of them and I've met a lot of them and they fit that profile too.

And there's, one's a black hat and one's a white hat. All right. Well, I was gonna, I was going 

Greg: to cut off the good guys. Which one is on my side. It's like going to an auto mechanic, you know, you pay them and you kind of hope for the best. And then your car comes out even more broken than it was before. [00:18:00] And then you're like, well, do I take it back to this person or not?

And it, I feel like it's very easy to switch between white hat and black hat. 

Jocelyn: Well, this is why it was so it's not super easy. And I'll tell you for two reasons. One is. We wish it were all as simple as the cartoons we watched as kids were literally the white hat, the cowboy and the white hat was a good guy in the cowboy and the black hat was a bad guy.

Or you hope that, well, if they're this gender or this race or this age, but we all know that's not reality and that's not life. So are the biggest enemy. Overly relying on stereotypes, uh, because people leverage that. The other thing is in, in corporate cyber hacks, 35, 30 to 35% is insider threats.

So you can have contractors who come in as it professionals. You can have people who come in to be janitors. You're gonna have people who come in. Okay. I'm a marketing salesperson. You could have a marketing contractor come in. They could really be a hacker and they could, you know, they're looking for ways in they're looking for, you know, everybody has like, if they're on a [00:19:00] Microsoft system, they're looking for that SharePoint site that has a proprietary documents that they can download.

So, 35% of hacks are insider threat and some of them are accidental people, you know, employees clicking on phishing and stuff and. A good number of them far more than any of us are comfortable with our intentional. 

Greg: Now there's again, more avenues I want to get into here, but how much money can a person make being a hacker?

Jocelyn: Well, a lot more than being an intern for a company, especially if you live in certain parts of the world where you're not really getting, you're not getting job opportunities to be an intern for fortune 500, but for $79, you can get. I mean in this day and age, all you need is a computer and an internet connection and the ability to to and time, and a lot of people who cannot [00:20:00] get jobs legitimately let's just even say they wanted to, uh, may find themselves.

I can't get it, but Hey, they can make quick, easy money this way. And some of them who can't afford the $79 kits have cyber criminal. People are happy to get it for them. And then they get to sh they get to Perform well and get the, and they get the credibility of their peers. So this, I mean, it's the same reason people go into physical gangs.

You want a sense of belonging. You want there's some gamification instant rewards that comes in. There's a reinforcement. There's you get pride in yourself when otherwise you don't. And it's literally every. That turns teenagers, especially in certain neighborhoods where they don't have enough opportunity to crime.

It that's what's happening on the web everyday. 

Greg: Uh, do you find that most of these attacks are international or domestic? Is there any sort of relationship there or is it just kind of 

Jocelyn: they're all of the above, as I [00:21:00] like to say, it's from the Midwest and the middle east. 

Greg: Yeah. It sounds like.

Our economy has expanded to become more technological and we've become more integrated international. Like you said everybody, a computers cheap now and internet connections pretty cheap as well. And if you're not doing so well, getting a job and, you know, shooting and in between applying for jobs, you can just go ahead and, you know, update your hacking skills and see where that goes.

And so it's just very 

Jocelyn: cool. Think of a poor neighborhood. You don't have a car, but the local gang is going to give you a car and it may be. Old 1975 rusted out, beat up Chevy, but you've got wheels and they're giving you money for gas. And all you have to do is go, you know, whack somebody.

I mean, you're going to end in you. Instant friends. And also there may be peer pressure if you don't. So there's, you know, there's a lot of socioeconomic things behind all this that we're not here to solve the day but it's good [00:22:00] to know that those exist because it's, you know, the same conversation we're having about cyber crime is the same conversation we've been having.

All of last century about physical crime. That's a great 

Greg: point. Yeah. And I had not made that connection, I think until now is that I hadn't 

Jocelyn: either, until I got into cybersecurity and realized how how rampant it was and how ubiquitous it was. Yeah. 

Greg: And there's many ways in, so you mentioned physical ways in, again, I want to get some more into like the, think the the technological aspects of it.

Figure. Well, I've got my username and my password. I know I shouldn't be updating my password. You know, what are there programs to go in there and actually like generate passwords and like, yeah, that'd be good. Yeah. 

Jocelyn: Okay. So there's a couple things. One is very often people will say, well, I don't have a lot of time to put into this, but what are the three or to five tips?

No. Passwords are obviously at the top of the list. And I think everybody already knows that. I mean, we watch all the [00:23:00] movies that say you don't use password 1, 2, 3, and they don't use pass down is yeah. Don't. Yeah, exactly. And don't use your birthday and stuff, but here's the thing. A lot of it, I always sit there and go, that's great.

We're telling everybody what not to do. It's a lot easier to tell them what to do, because then they can actually take an action and do it faster. So there's a couple things. There's no such thing as a password because you need to have a different password for every account you have. And when I went through and updated all of mine, when I first got into cybersecurity, I had, uh, just shy of 250.

That's a lot. So there are things, you know, like whether you're an apple user, an Android there you're, you know, you have key chains. I'm not a big fan of using. Like, you know, Chrome having it, remember your passwords and things like that. Cause it can be hacked into but it's better than using one password everywhere.

The other thing is what I recommend to people is whatever that account has to do with. So like, let's say [00:24:00] your. It's your Disneyland, something rather than what's your favorite song? It doesn't your favorite phrase from a favorite song? Let's say when you wish upon a star, then you want to make your password out of that.

And the way to do that is take the first letter of every word. And then you replace anytime. It's I like when I wish upon this would say you would replace an I with a one you want to use an app. You want to use uppercase. It may be the first word and lowercase throughout, and then you want to put like an exclamation mark at the end or dash or do something.

So when you think of a phrase and then you, and then your password is based on the first character of each word, and then you're doing substitutions. And if you're using, if it's an, a use an ad saying, okay, so these are the pro tips. Okay. Then you can remember it. And the thing is, you're not just picking.

The one commercial for the company, like [00:25:00] something as big as Disney, think of the most obscure song that you love from it, not the most popular one or the most common one or something that has an insider thing to you. And the reason that's important is because you don't want anywhere on your social media posts, when you visited Disneyland to say, oh, and I got to hear my favorite song such.

And so, because that's how cyber criminals. I can get that kind of information and socially engineer, you know, your password and stuff. So it's, you know, now that's kind of complex. I realize. So the other thing is I'm a big believer and I don't have any kickbacks from this or not, but last pass or one password, I highly recommend those.

And I, and then you have one master password and you let it generate. It also takes care of alerting you when there's been breached. And you need to update your password. So instead of you having to monitor your 200 plus accounts for when there's been a breach or wait until the news show tells you it's helping to prompt you [00:26:00] and then you.

What you have to do is jealously rigorously guard your master password. Also, if you're doing anything with crypto or Bitcoin, never, ever put anything for a highly technical thing where, you know the cream of the crop guys are in, never put that in anything digitally. You want to write that. Book and put it in the cell, a safe deposit box in case you forget it or put it in the safe at home.

And then if your safe is broken into, hopefully you have physical security, which means your house was broken into, you know, it then, you know, you're, you know that even if your safe looks like it, wasn't broken into, you're still gonna go in and change your password. You just going to do that out of a habit, you brushed your.

Hopefully you floss occasionally, you're now going to adopt this because it's worth it. You wouldn't want your teeth to fall out and you certainly don't want your identity to go missing. Well, that's one of the things 

Greg: that I'm worried about with last pass. I have last pass. I mean, I don't use it as often as I should, but I do have it for some things.

I'm always [00:27:00] thinking, well, what if somebody gets that password and can I trust last pass? And so we're kind of back in the same circle. It seems. 

Jocelyn: You are, but however, are you safer with it than not? Yes. And what if you cheat and then you can just modify your password every 30 days, 

Greg: that one password. Okay, then you have access to the other ones, so you can modify if you have thing.

Jocelyn: And then if you have a retirement account where you have $2 million sitting in it, you may want to again, make that one of the passwords that you do not even put in that system and you have written down. Okay. And so I would recommend, like, let's just say you have a big savings account thing somewhere.

You don't You don't put that one in there. You don't put your crypto password in there and you don't ever put your, you know, and you don't ever store your last pass or one password or equivalent anywhere. So you're going to have three passwords that you're going to memorize and you're going to put in, uh, or, and, or put, you're going to put as a backup in a vault, [00:28:00] and you're going to write it down in a journal and put it in your safe deposit box.

And then you're going to change them. You know, every 30, 60, or 90 days. And if you do that, you're ahead of everybody else around you, the 

Greg: real important things. Yeah. The big, you know, safes full of all the gold treat those separately, all the other thousand passwords that we have. You can put those in last pass and that way, at least the same key doesn't unlock everything.

Jocelyn: Like you may want your VA password and things like that to be one of those three, but you know, your AAA card. Yeah. Here's the thing to ask yourself. What's the worst that could happen if they hacked into your account. Now, if the worst could happen is that they can lock you out of things or hurt your family.

Then you want to think about getting it into a secure system and or if it's really important making it one of the things you write down in a journal and it never, the only time it ever has any kind of digital [00:29:00] traces when you were typing it in. Okay. 

Greg: Okay. Wow. That's a, there's a lot to think about there.

So you 

Jocelyn: talked about go ahead and this is a much easier list. Then trying to get your identity back and cleaning things up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's 

Greg: get into that. And what are kind of the, what, so you say you get your identity stolen you check your bank account, you see that it's been cleaned out. It wasn't you have some indication or maybe your credit card company calls and says, Hey, you have all this money on this credit card.

Is that usually kind of the first indication I would think for most people that is, they just 

Jocelyn: see something. Yeah. Or a lot of times you go to use your ATM card at the gas station. You can find you got a problem in or something like that. I will let me jump to the bad news part of that's that was eye opening to me.

When you call the authorities to get help, because it's so rampant, you basically are in a filing out a report mode and you have to do that because in order for the bank or your credit card to then. Say that, okay, we're going to, we're going to [00:30:00] credit you this money because it wasn't your fault.

You've got to give them the police report. I mean, I've spoken to police and sheriff and FBI around things like this. And there's a lot of bureaucracy on it. And again, that's in the, that's in the cybercriminals advantage. And so by the time you think, oh, good, they're going to go get the bad guys. I mean, I know I knew somebody who had their iPhone stolen and because they had to find my iPhone.

Drove to outside the house where it was and they called the police and everything had it. And bottom line is even with that, they didn't, they did not get a little. Help from the authorities and they did not get their iPhone back, even though they were standing outside the house of the person who stole it off of the dime off of the table in the restaurant they were in at lunch, it's just cops.

So there's a lot of stories. Yeah. And I'm not, and I'm not putting anybody down. I'm not criticizing the authority. I'm just saying the, when you have a pandemic of crime, And it's, and there's a [00:31:00] lot of bureaucracy behind what the insurance companies and the banks and other things will, and won't do, it becomes a bureaucratic system.

And if you come into it as a first time victim thinking, okay, good, I've got great information. They can go arrest these people and do this and that. And. And when you, and in the scheme of that, or the heroin bust that they're making, it's a lesser deal. And it's more, you know, it's really important to you, but it's not really important to everybody else.

And unfortunately most people learn that when they're right after they've been victimized and they're like but they're right there and they stole it. And even the cameras in the restaurant will show that they stole it. They're like, it's not the biggest crime that the authorities are having to deal with.

And. And it's like, okay, but you can get a replacement here or yeah. You know, your credit card company is going to credit you back. So just go on your Merry way. And you, you may get a sense of restored wholeness, if you can call it that, but you don't get a sense of vindication or 

Greg: justice. [00:32:00] Yeah. We just don't look at physical crime and property crime in the same way.

And I understand why we don't, but. The bureaucracy and the system has not caught up with, you know, adjudicating these claims. And so you're probably going to get lost in the system. So make sure 

it 

Jocelyn: doesn't say, this is why prevention, right. A lot easier than, yeah. Yeah. 

Greg: So what did happen to you?

What were kind of the big steps you had to go through? How long did it take you to get your identity back, get things back 

Jocelyn: a while. And I didn't have the worst case. And the, actually there's still one thing that's still six years in. I'm still going through. I still haven't resolved it and there's a whole legal thing going on.

So, It can take a while and it can cost you, it can cost you more than you lost. So, you know, there's and I hear a lot of stories, even, you know, the there's corner case stories too, that are the huge egregious ones and those make the news and a lot of the morning shows and things like that, but [00:33:00] the average is not great, you know, either in the, and the worst thing is if you're already If you're already busy with your life, which most people are, and you have better things to do with your time, then try to claw your way back from being victimized by a cyber criminal.

And then you add to it, the stress. And especially if you have, if you already have a stress disorder or PTSD or something, you don't need that. You don't need this on top. So all the more reason to do preventative measures because the other thing about prevention is you want to be getting alert sooner that there is a time factor in this.

You know, if you get an alert from one of your monitoring companies that you just applied for a loan before. The car was actually purchased or the house overseas or whatever. That's been tied to you, the faster you can, you know, that you get an alert and can follow up on it and can intercepted the the lesser blow you're going to.

Greg: So you'll get an [00:34:00] indication that you applied for this huge alone and it wasn't you and there goes your credit rating and there it goes. 

Jocelyn: Right. And there's some people who don't know until they go to apply for an actual loan or they do, you know, maybe they're on a thing where every year they get the.

Big three you know, credit reports and then they go, wait, this wasn't me. And this happened six months ago. You don't want it to be that didn't happen six months ago. You want it to be okay, this happened last week and this wasn't me. Okay. Because that timeliness also helps get people rallied once a whole deal's gone.

I mean, I'm, one of the people I interviewed for my book had, this is just some of these stories are. Scary. And then very painful, you know, even to listen to a little and to experience had to file bankruptcy because they had millions of dollars that they were respond, that they were responsible for him liable for.

And You know, and they were a busy working person, [00:35:00] standing up a business and having a young family and a couple of young kids and doing all this and they didn't have the alerts. So I that's why I'm, that's why I'm on the show. This, my mission is to help a hundred million women live safer, better lives.

And when I say that, I don't, I'm not excluding men. I'm not mean to exclude men, but I did find like in my book, 75% of what I write about and tips are You know, are non-gender specific, but there are 25% of things that were, women are more are more targeted than men. Yeah. And, uh, and that's why I'm focused on women.

And then it just helps the men who read the book, understand what the women in their lives are also having to contend with so they can better. Yeah, 

Greg: I think it's, I think it's vitally important. I mean, not just the online stuff, you know, I need to work on that. The physical stuff, I don't worry about too much, you know, I'm six feet tall.

I'm 200 pounds. Usually it's not been an issue in my whole life, but if I was five foot five and 115 pounds, I would look at the, I would look at the world a lot differently. And so I do, when I'm thinking about what most women go through, I [00:36:00] kind of have to do that to myself. Okay. You know, take off 80 pounds and six inches, you know, and that would not now how brave are you going to be?

And you know, how are you gonna look at the world? And so, yeah. What are some of those things? Women should be thinking about. 

Jocelyn: So let me just tell your listeners to a little bit. So the physical safety part, and this is why I'm not, I don't, I call myself a life safety expert, not just a cybersecurity person, because so.

I've been mugged and I've been sexually assaulted and that's something. And certainly men have to deal with that too, but it's by far more common with women. And I was now one thing too. A lot of sexual assault and physical abuse. For women. Unfortunately overwhelmingly happens from somebody they know, and in my case, that was true too.

One of my first three employers, it was my manager who sexually assaulted me in the car when they was supposed to be dropped me off and I was 18 and I just didn't get it. [00:37:00] You know, I just didn't get any help for it. I was, I felt, what did I do? Like, you know, you take it on, you take it internally that you did something wrong.

In most cases and you don't tell anybody about it. In my case, I didn't talk about it for 10 years. And then it came out and in therapy and it came out in a marriage counseling session actually later. And so I just, you know, you try to you put it in your hurt locker. And then your union, you move on and you can do that, even though I wasn't in the services.

So I had my own hurt locker and then I was mugged in a parking lot. If years later and five years later, and that spiraled me into then having a Gora phobia and being afraid to go out and it was winter. And I had to walk from my workplace to a parking garage, a block away. And I was leaving at 5:00 PM, which is, you know, in Northern California, man, it was dark.

And I was just having panic attacks. So I, I went and learned martial arts and I thought, okay, I'm going to learn martial arts so that I can protect myself anytime anybody wants to [00:38:00] hurt me or try to steal my purse again. I'm, you know, I'm. You know, beat the living daylights out of them. W what I actually, and I loved learning martial arts, and it was very empowering and it's also, it's an internal, you know, it's a emotional, mental and physical.

Yes, it does. And it's really good for getting into your zone and getting us and I think for women in particular, and I learned wing Chun style, so my teacher's teacher was a student, was Bruce Lee's first. American non-Chinese student. And it was invented wing. Chun style was invented by a four foot, six inch Chinese nun who was able to protect herself against, you know, a Chinese army and a Chinese, 

Greg: the ones that teach you to leverage technique, you know, over, over strength.

Yeah. 

Jocelyn: Exactly. So you can literally handle you know, deal with somebody twice your size. Now I'm five, nine. I'm not, you know, tiny, but you know, that's not the sole thing. So, I, so I really encourage women to look at the martial arts that [00:39:00] aren't, that don't require size and strength to be in your favor, you know?

And, uh, and when Chun, Kung Fu was one of those, and I just love, and I love the story, you know, of the Chinese naan and everything. There's a whole. Laura on that you can read about. Okay. But but I really, but the thing that I learned is when you're actually learning self-defense techniques is you learn how vulnerable, you know, somebody else's body is so that you can attack them, which also means you're learning how vulnerable your body is.

And at that point, I'm like, you know, in this day and age, it's like, you know, you got to really decide if somebody is stealing. Pers do you want to just, you know, cancel your credit cards and get a new driver's license? Or do you want to physically get into it with somebody who is motivated, you know, for money or drugs or whatever.

So they've got a lot they may have more on the line to lose, you know, then you have and that's why I got really into prevention and the self-defense and one of the things I've done, particularly with women is teach them like, Just be aware of [00:40:00] your surroundings. You know, don't walk down a dark street and walk right up against bushes and trees where people could be hiding behind and ideally don't be walking alone in that environment.

Anyway. When you're going out, like I see a lot of women in Silicon valley here who are, you know, they're software engineers, they've got the cybersecurity and the password stuff nail, right. But they're making really poor choices and rookie mistakes around physical safety. You know, they're going to San Francisco to a nightclub and they're walking eight blocks by themselves and just thinking, oh, you know, they're okay.

Or thinking bold because I'm in public or there's people around. If I scream, something will happen. Well, one of the things that happens is a lot of time you go to scream and nothing comes up. You know, cause if you go into a freeze mode in fight or flight, you go into freeze. So you can't eat, you open your mouth and you scream and you think you're screaming, but nothing's coming out.

People don't respond that quickly. I mean, you really need a first responder around to hear you and jump into action and your odds aren't in the favor. That means [00:41:00] they're going to be just standing by. So, so for a lot of reasons even then, you know, and we've all heard, read and heard about the unfortunate stories of you can have something bad happen to you in front of a crowd of people and scream, and that particular crowd doesn't do anything.

It doesn't lift a finger to help you. So. Better to stay out of harm's way. Right. And and then the other thing too, I like I'll coach women, they'll say, well, I've got pepper spray in my purse, or I've got a knife in my purse or something. And it's like, okay, any weapon you have, if you can be overpowered, can be taken by your assailant and used against you.

So if you don't want pepper spray in your own eyes, Uh, the first time you're going to use it. And the first time you're going to be trying to protect yourself, shouldn't be when you're being attacked. Yeah. Cause you're going to end up violated, you know, hurt mug, maybe sexually assaulted, maybe killed and with pepper spray in your eyes.

So these are the things that people get a false sense of security by saying, oh, well I bought this thing and I put it in my purse. So I caution people to. [00:42:00] A B learn good safety tips for how to avoid being in the bed, the wrong place at the wrong time. So you increase your odds of not having to have something bad happen.

Secondly, learn some self defense techniques, and then thirdly, you do unfortunately need to think through the scenario. What if somebody I know and trust yeah. Violates me cause you that could, that happens to. You know, that happens too, like 30 to 40% of women. So 

Greg: yeah, there's a lot to, a lot to talk about there.

I think the two biggest ones I would say to avoid are darkness and it's hard to avoid, but alcohol, cause we want to have fun, but darkness and alcohol are the big ones. And then the third one I would say is isolation. So if you're by yourself, it's dark and you're drunk. You got three huge things working against you.

And then, you know, the number one thing I would say, and just kind of talking about what you said, where people get this false sense of security. Like I took a martial [00:43:00] arts class and I'm good, or I'd have this pepper spray and I'm good. It's like, no, your number one thing to do is going to be to run.

So you need to run and run toward people and run toward the light. If you can do that. And 

high 

Jocelyn: heels are also not your friend. If you're near D if you're running down a dark alley, 

Greg: you know, it's funny, he's a guy. I would think about this as a young man. When I was, you know, going out a lot more, you know, many years ago, and I had these nicer shoes as a guy.

I think it's just more instinctual. We were just like, I'm like, I can't run in these shoes. I need to have my, you know, You know, sneakers or something. And as a guy, we just kind of think about this a little bit more, and I think, you know, women need to put that higher. It's just, it's a different, I don't want to put my 

Jocelyn: mind.

We're also comparing like your leather loafers with a slicks bottom, but they're still flats. You could still run into. They're just not as good as your Nike, but it's always spent something, but the difference between a woman in, you know, something that doesn't even have a strap around the ankle and has a four-inch heel and stuff.

So I just tell them and just again, be aware of your surroundings, [00:44:00] go places. I was out the other night and I had to park it was a friend's party or celebration at the restaurant. And I was parked a block away because it was super crowded when I got there. And it was light when I got there.

But yeah, I I asked one of the guys I know, and I said, Hey, can you please walk me to my car now again? No, no note to self, uh, you gotta be careful in those situations. So you're not just asking a guy, you know, because that, unfortunately there's a lot of those cases of that's where something bad happened.

So it's not just something like, oh, well this guy shows up every Saturday. I've seen him. He has a familiar face that doesn't, that's not the same as your is kind of protected. There's a difference between a face. The 30, 

Greg: 40% of attacks are with people that the woman knows. So we're 30% 

Jocelyn: or something they're non strangers.

I think an actual stranger actually being assaulted by a stranger is less than 10% 

Greg: in a whole other way, or 

Jocelyn: [00:45:00] that we need to think about because there can be people you work with. There can be neighborhood people, so, and it gets closer. And then you know, so there's, it's a concentric circle, so there's a far too high, a number.

That is your own family. And then there's far too high, a number that's your spouse or boyfriend, or what's the best way then outside of that, there's people that you work with or people that, you know, there's people that live in your same building. If you're in an apartment, there's people who are in your neighborhood, there's people who go to the same hiking club, you go to bike club and all of that gives a sense of familiarity now for the 90% of the people.

Okay. Here's the other thing, pathologists. Diagnosable pathology makes up 15% of the population. I say, that's where you got to do the math. My friends is that some percentage of your hiking club or of this are going to have pathology. Now it's not 15% of every group. You're a member of, because there are certain [00:46:00] barriers to entry for certain things.

But if you assume that one in a hundred in your hiking club might be bad, you just have to. You know, trust, but verify and in cybersecurity, there's a term called zero trust. It's the penultimate place where like, because of the insider threats of employees actually being the ones that are stealing your IP and stuff, or, you know, or doing things that security officers we have to the zero trust.

You know, goal, which means, you know, like not even the CEO can access certain things from certain devices and certain parts of the world because they can be compromised. So I don't tell people, you know, I'm not here and what I'm trying to do with my book. Like if you really want to be a hundred percent protected, you've got to be hermetically sealed and living in a bunker, you know?

And there are people who do have to live that way coming out of certain. You know, like, I mean, it's where you're getting into the witness protection stuff and things, but for most people, like, you know what you're trying to do, it's if you know, porch pirates or criminals come to your [00:47:00] neighborhood to break in or steal thing, you just want to be the least attractive house on the block, you know, at least.

And then because the access to cyber crime tools is getting. More common and less expensive. You know, you also need to do certain things that make you just unattractive as a house to break into, but you're not necessarily going to put, you know, little tiny bunker windows at the top and Bulletproof glass and you're living.

But, uh, and I'm not here for those people cause they know who they are and they've got their own security details that are, they're doing all that stuff for them. I'm here for the common person to help them. Just not have their snowglobe or their life shaken up by somebody who bought a $79 kit or who's out for their purse or is just has some bad pathology and is going to hurt them in a way that's going to devastate their life.

Uh, just want them to. Have their problems be in the normal course of problems that we all can. 

Greg: Yeah. I, you know, there's another, [00:48:00] I follow Brazilian jujitsu quite a bit, did it for a short period of time. And the most famous family is obviously the Gracie family. Well, they have a class where they have a. Uh, and instructional school here in LA and they specifically tailor it to women.

They have a class that's for women and it goes everything from what to do when you get in an elevator by yourself, what to do when you go out to the parking lot. If somebody does grab you, how do you. Get out of it, or if somebody is being innocent, you know, how do you set a boundary? You know, where do you put your arm in a photograph?

Because you want to have your arm up here and not down here, like just ways to prevent yourself from being a victim. I think it's a good thing to look into here in LA. I'm sure there's ones all over the country, but yeah, just kind of, to set the frame, correct. It's you know you know, we want people to.

Obviously not do bad things. We should obviously punish people who do bad things, but at the same time, we need to teach good people to do good things. And so you're doing that as well. Jocelyn king author of the upcoming book is sitting [00:49:00] pretty or a sitting duck. Uh, certainly appreciate you coming on and spreading your wisdom. How can people get ahold of you? What's the best way to. 

Jocelyn: So the best thing would be to come to Jocelyn king.com, J O C E L Y N K I N g.com and starting in may, I'm publishing weekly life safety tips so that they can come in and just get free advice.

At the end of the day, I'm an educator and I'm here to share. My information freely and get things out to people. And if they're interested in courses, I will be offering those as well. For deeper knowledge. I am working right now with some I worked in a research center for three years, so I am working with some researchers and we're putting together the sitting duck assessment.

So you can take an online quiz and see where your weakest areas are. What I find to be the most troubling is. There's so many areas of our life where we need to protect ourselves. And we're only as strong as our weakest link. So, I'm working to put together the assessment that will help, you know, [00:50:00] what are the three areas of your life that you most need to shore up?

You know, and let's say you score a three. We want to get you to at least a five. And my goal is to get everybody to an eight, nine or 10 in safety in every area of their life and give them the tips and free resources and training to help get them there. Right. 

Greg: Jocelyn king. Thanks so much. So. 

Jocelyn: Thank you for having me.

I love your show and thank you to all your listeners for their service and for their family members service. And I hope I've helped in some way. And if you have any unique questions for me, feel free to email me at. You'll find that on the website. I'd be happy to help you out. All right. Great. 

Greg: That is it my friends.

Thank you for listening. And please remember your five point checklist from the beginning of the show that is rate comment, subscribe, email, and share. So go to the bottom of that podcast app. Give me a five star rating and friendly comment next to go to GregKrino.com. Scroll to the bottom and subscribe to my newsletter, email your friends and [00:51:00] tell them to do this.

Please share the show on social media. So I've got a great credo show page on Instagram and Facebook, and I have my personal page on LinkedIn. So share those shows on social media. And finally, if you want to contact me, if you have an idea for this show, or you just have some feedback, please email me at GregKrinoShow@gmail.com.

Take care and see you on the next episode.