134. Lawanda Parnell – A Technology Career Across Generations

In this episode of Ordinarily Extraordinary – Conversations with Women in STEM, Kathy and Linda sit down with Lawanda Parnell, a retired technology and utility leader whose career began at IBM in the early 1980s and spanned decades of innovation and leadership.

Lawanda shares her journey from studying business administration with a strong math and computer science foundation at the University of Florida, to becoming one of the few Black women in tech during her era, to leading large-scale projects in the utility industry.

She reflects on:

• Transitioning from IBM into the utility sector and the challenges of large-scale software implementations.
• How her love of math, particularly calculus, shaped her career path.
• The importance of mentors and sponsors, including those who encouraged her to pursue a master’s degree.
• Building strong, diverse teams and the value of hiring people smarter than yourself.
• Overcoming the fear of public speaking as an introverted techie.
• Her perspective on management versus technical career paths and advice for navigating that choice.
• Why utilities need to do a better job of marketing themselves to the next generation of STEM professionals.

The conversation also dives into listener advice questions, covering:

• Should you move into management if you love technical work?
• What to do if your company offers to pay for grad school in a field you don’t love.

Lawanda’s story is one of resilience, lifelong learning, and the joy of finding passion in work while paving the way for future generations.

About Lawanda:
Lawanda Parnell is a retired technology and utility leader whose career began at IBM and later spanned leadership roles in the energy sector, including CPS Energy and Pedernales Electric Cooperative. With a background in business and computer science, she combined her love of math and technology with strong project management skills to lead large-scale IT transformations and mentor future STEM professionals.

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Music by Kay Paulus 

Follow Kay on Instagram @kaypaulus8

Transcript

134. Lawanda Parnell

Kathy: Hi everyone, and welcome back to ordinarily Extraordinary Conversations with Women in stem. I am really excited to have Lawanda Parnell with us today. Lawanda Parnell is retired, which we'll talk about in that in a minute. But I do want to say I don't get to meet that many retired women in STEM, which just speaks to how short of a time we have actually had that many women in stem.

So really excited to have her here. Welcome, Lawanda. 

Lawanda: Thank you, Kathy. 

Kathy: Alright, so as I said, I love meeting women in STEM who are retired because there aren't many women who have been around in STEM for that long. I thought when I started out, I started out in engineering in 1993. I thought there were more of us.

Honestly, I did not realize like how few women in STEM there are and just to be able to meet someone that's retired, it makes me excited and also how is retirement? First question. 

Lawanda: Given all of my STEM career, I'll have to say retirement is my best job Ever put that out,

Linda, do you, do you agree with that? I agree. I'm not fully retired yet and I don't know if Lawanda is either, but I agree the more I have free time to do scheduling the way I want to do scheduling, the more I want all of my time to be free, where I can schedule it to do what I want to do. It's very, it's just really nice.

Linda: It's definitely stress free. 

Kathy: What's your biggest stressor in retirement? 

Lawanda: Sometimes you forget what day it is, you know? Okay. You get a lot of Saturdays; I feel a lot of Saturdays in retirement and say it's Saturday. No, it's not Saturday. So that's stress that just keeps, 

Kathy: I did get to experience that I did a rafting trip in June, or I guess end of May, beginning of June for 14 days in the Grand Canyon.

I was completely like, we were completely cut off from everything, like no electricity, no internet, like all the like completely off grid for 14 days. And there was probably like seven to 10 days that I did not know the day of the week, the date of the months. Even the time of the day except for, because of the sun.

And it was amazing. Like it was the best feeling ever. I'm, I am looking forward to having that feeling more often. So good for you. Okay, so I'm going to, I want to go a little bit backwards in your career, because I do want to start with what did you do towards the end of your career and how do you and Linda know each other?

Lawanda: The end of my career was with an electric co-op in Texas. And when I got hired on at that co-op, they were struggling with their implementation of SAP. And so that was a lot of what got me there. Because I had experience with SAP at my prior job. And so, my first say eight to nine months at Perna Electric co-op was trying to stabilize that system.

And about six months into that job, the CEO changed. And so. CEO change. New CEO says SAP is really probably too much of a complex, complicated system for what we're trying to do, and it wasn't really geared towards the electric utility company industry. So, we started looking at new solutions and that we selected the solution where Linda worked at the time.

And so, the CEOs agreed that they would send someone from NISC. To come help us install and implement the new solution. And Linda was that person. So that's how I met Linda during that time. And of course that was a busy time taking out SAP was no, no short or simple task, and then bringing in a new system and still running the business while you're doing that.

So that's how Linda and I met. Interesting times. I was still in the utility. Industry, but very different. The previous one was a municipal electric company, and it did electric and gas, and then pronounced electric only did electric. Very different in how they ran their business, but still in the utility industry.

That’s how Linda and I met. 

Kathy: Okay. How did you like the utility industry and what brought you into utilities to start with? Because you started out not really start, I don't, I'm not sure I would say start out, but a lot of your, like your early career was at IBM. How'd you get into the utility space? 

Lawanda: It was just because I got laid off from IBM, like in 2005, and so then I went into some independent consulting for less than a year.

So, I was just interviewing for what's the next move in the career and the recruiter came and said, hey, why don't you go and have an interview with this company? And so interviewed with, uh, CPS Energy in San Antonio and just by, and again, they were interested in my experiences in web application development.

And so that's how I got into the utility industry. And then that's how I ended my career in the utility industry. 

Kathy: One of the things that. I've been a part of a, an industry trade association for, I don’t know, probably 15, 18 years for a long time. And one of the things we struggle with is how do we get young people into the utility industry?

How do we get them into technology? How do we compete against the Metas and the Amazons and the Googles, and how do we make the utility industry sexy? How did you find the utility industry when you. Was it something that you were like scared of? Oh my gosh, I'm going to go work with these and I'm going to use a little bit of generalization here.

I'm going to go work with these like old white men because that's a lot of what the utility industry is. Was that something that you're like, oh my gosh, I don't want to do this. Or was it something you're like, oh, this is an in interesting industry, and then how was your perception before you went in versus when you got in there, and now I feel like we're talking doing a utility podcast instead of a women in STEM podcast, but we'll circle back.

Lawanda: I think the utility industry doesn't do a good job of marketing itself because it would be much easier to get young people interested today than it was when I started with them back in 2006. because in 2006, the utilities were doing, they were doing application development, but they weren't doing a lot of Java development.

They weren't doing a bunch of web. They had websites. But they were very, young I'd call it websites, not a lot of functionality there. And so now though, they just don't do a good job of marketing themselves because, they're doing e-commerce, they're doing, development.

They're doing interesting things, but they don't do a good job of selling themselves, especially when they go on college campuses and sometimes, they send the wrong people to the college campuses. To do that recruitment. So, the kids look at 'em like, oh, I don't think I want to go work there. Because it was different when I started, when I started in San Antonio, they were still handing out paper checks, and payday, because I was really surprised, because that was part of responsibility as a manager. You're supposed to go around and hand out these envelopes, and I'm thinking they were just the, the copies of the check, that said it had been deposited wasn't a real check.

So, if I miss somebody, I, no big deal. No. Okay. He wasn't at his desk, so I just put it in my desk. And so couple days later, the guy came by and said Ms. Parnell, I haven't gotten my check. I'm like should you call HR? He says no. The envelope. Oh, there was a check in there because I was already getting, I just assumed everybody was, and you, this check had been sitting in my desk for a couple of days.

I'm like, okay, we need to get.

Linda: It's so funny, it's so funny to talk about that technology back in the early utility days. And I started at the utility in 1988. Actually, it was 8-8-88. It was quite the day. I didn't even realize that was such a significant number day. But they were using. The punch card system for their technology.

And one of the reasons I was hired, I know this is about you, Luanda, but I just have to relate this back one. One of the reasons I was hired is to help them look at a new system and help to train on it. So that was a large leap into the [00:09:00] future, and I had maybe learned a little bit about punch card systems in school. But that was a really strange beast, that machine.

Kathy: All right, now that we've scared any young person that might be out there listening to podcast about utilities.

Linda: no. It's leaps and bounds. Kathy, we got to correct that. Yeah. Leaps and bounds ahead, right? A long time ago. We're ancient.

Kathy: Okay, tomorrow. My son is going to job shadow two engineers, one at GRE and one at Connexus. Both of them are close to retirement, but they're both like good friends of mine and I'm like, oh, is this going to be like a bad idea? And he's going to get scared away. Plus, he's mom, you're making me go do this for one of the, like he leaves for college on Friday morning and. This is Wednesday that he's going to job shadow. He's this is one of my last days. But he is kind of put it off all summer and I'm like; you need to take the opportunity to go learn what these power engineers do.

Because that's what he's studying so that you have some idea of what you might want to do for interning and for a job. And anyway, so now I'm like, I'm, I may scare him away from the utility industry.

Lawanda: But I, like I said, I think it's more that they don't do a good job of marketing themselves, because take some of those, there's some really smart, really intuitive young people working at a lot of these utilities. Take them with you on the re, on the recruiting sites and let them talk to the people that you like to attract to the industry.

Because there are really good jobs there that have a career path, and you can learn a lot of things. And even if you just use it as a steppingstone to your next job, you'll get a lot out of it career wise at the utilities.

Kathy: Yeah, I'm sending my son with 60-year-old men. We're not going with the younger people because that's who 

Lawanda: I know.

We'll just leave that.

Kathy: Anyway okay. I do want to circle back and let's start like how, tell me about like how you got to where you were. Because you started out in business in the late 1970s, and I'm curious how you went from business into technology. What was that? How did you end up going that direction?

Lawanda: Actually, I started at IBM in 1983. And I got hired because I went to the University of Florida, got hired by IBM, started at IBM in 1983. And I actually started, because that was, that was young in the PC days. Then, and I started in their testing division. It was in software division doing testing on a lot of their small systems like their PCs.

And the small as four hundreds at the time, which now I think they call, they used to call them their ier, but that's where I started. So, I started in technology, but I had a business administration degree, which had a sort of an underpinning of computer science. because you took a lot Compsci courses during that Business administration degree.

Kathy: So, what in the late 19 or like the seventies when you started going to school in like the early eighties, what got you interested in technology? Because that was probably not something that there were a lot of women in. And we also, I do want to also talk about the intersection of where you are.

Lawanda: Because you're black and you're female. And I'm thinking in like the 1970s, early eighties that had to have been. That Venn diagram has that intersection, has to be very small at that time. Still is, my real interest when I started college, because what I really liked was math. That's my thing. I really liked math. And so, when I first started, first I thought I wanted to be a doctor and so I took a lot of chemistry in high school and got to college and got there and I went through that first chemistry class and I'm like, no, don't think that's going to work out. That's not my thing anymore. But my other love was math, so you know, I loved it and that was my thing, even in college. And then, I started looking at what would the career look like in math. And so just pure math and I'm like, okay, not going to be a money maker here. And so that's when then I switched over and said, can I use that in computer science?

And so that's how I got interested in computer science. a lot of the courses in the business administration degree were pure COMPSCI classes. 

Kathy: Oh, I did not realize that.

Lawanda: So, at the University of Florida it was in addition to the accounting and economics and finance were a lot of compsci classes. And so that's how I really got into it.

Because I liked those courses more than I liked the accounting and the finance, but it was all part of the degree process. And you're absolutely right. The classes were large at the university. You mean a lot of classes You had hundreds of people in them, but most of them were guys especially in the math classes.

A lot of those were males. And in compsci got even more male-centric. There, and Linda, to your point, started out those compsci classes were cards. That was interesting walking around with a box full of punch cards to run your program. But that's how I got interested in technology was through those computer science courses in the business administration degree at the University of Florida.

And I really liked it. And so, when I interviewed, I was interviewing with tech companies during the interview process, not companies that were looking at me for my business side.

Kathy: My daughter graduated two years ago with a Bachelor of Arts degree in computer science with a business minor, which you're making me think that it sounds very similar to that. So, you get the business side, which I think is great, along with the technology side.

Lawanda: Yes. 

Kathy: Very interesting. 

Linda: I had a background too with the accounting and then moving into computer science with the accounting and it's funny to hear you say about the math Lawanda, because I've always had a love for math and you'll hear Kathy talk a lot on different podcasts about her love for math.

And I had to chuckle when you said that and because it's a theme and back in the day when we went to college. Math was oh, you do accounting because you love math. And which was great. I loved accounting, but it wasn't enough. I wanted more math. So, then I angled towards that computer science area as well.

Lawanda: And my favorite was calculus.

Kathy: Mine too. I always said if I wasn't an engineer, I would've taught calculus. I love calculus.

Lawanda: I loved it. And because my whole senior year in high school. I took calculus and it's funny because then I started out my freshman year and took three more courses of calculus and that counted toward a degree. But the first two semesters of college calculus was really a repeat of my senior year in high school.

That helped the GPA a lot, a five-credit calculus

Linda: you had a good high school.

Lawanda: that were a repeat of high school. I'm like I'm loving this.

Kathy: Like she was acing her tests.

Lawanda: But they taught it. My high school teacher taught it very different than, the grad students at the University of Florida. But it was all good. That was my favorite was calculus.

Kathy: You know what? my calculus was I was the first year that they did PSEO in Minnesota. So, I took college calculus when I was in high school and I had a fabulous professor. My dad actually worked at the college where I took calculus and the calculus professor was also the dad of a student that was like a year older than me, so he was like a normal good professor, he didn't have TAs teach and it was such a great experience. Professors and teachers, they just make such a world of difference in how you understand and how you, the joy that you find in the things that you do. I had probably five just fabulous math teachers over my life, and he was probably the last one. And they make, they do though, they make a world of difference.

Lawanda: It did because I used what I learned in high school for how I learned calculus in college, and it was much simpler. I finished exams way before everybody else just because I used his method of doing calculus rather than the way they taught it at the college level. And it was wonderful. That made the biggest difference with my love of math was how I learned calculus in high school.

Kathy: Let me ask you, how was your college experience like in these classes where you were, one of few, what was your experience like? Was it challenging? Did you face any kind of obstacles or was it like you were just completely accepted and normal and there was not any kind of issues?

Lawanda: I didn't really feel the issues of, were of racism. I didn't feel that there. I didn't feel that people were looking at me different. It was just that, I had to bury myself in the coursework. So that was mainly it. If anything, it's some of the, as you pointed out, some of the instructors were just interesting.

I'll put it as a, but I didn't feel that. But like I said, I was determined to get a degree. Because I grew up on a farm and I'm like, farming is not for me as a long-term career. So, we got to make the best of this.

Linda: Who was your inspiration to go to college? Lawanda, we've known each other for a long time, and many of your siblings have gone to college too. And I wasn't really in, in that era. I wasn't really encouraged to go to college. Who was your rockstar? Was it you that decided or did you have somebody encouraging you to go 

Lawanda: My parents. always stress, because I have three brothers and one sister, and my parents always stress to us. Get a degree and their words were always; that's something that no one can take away from you. Get your education and then you can determine where do you want to go next.

So, our parents always pushed us and neither one of my parents ever finished high school. They were busy working and, but they always wanted us to, you got to do more and accomplish more than we have. So, they were really the inspiration pushing all of us forward. So, I'd say my biggest inspiration was just my parents pushing us and, scraping up and making sure we got what we needed and so that we could go.

Linda: That's wonderful.

Kathy: Lawanda, is there anything else in your career that we haven't touched on that has been important or transitional or transformational for you that you want to share?

Lawanda: I've had some really good mentors, and I'd say in during my career, especially at IBM, I think IBM just set me up to be successful in a longer career because I've used so many of those skills that I picked up while I was there in the jobs after IBM. And I tell folks, if you can get a job there because there's such diversity in the things you can do at a company like IBM and you got to take advantage of it.

And I've had some really good, both male and female quite a diverse group of managers because I got my master's degree while I was at IBM and they paid for that. And my mentor, who was at the time, the site manager and I worked in Dallas at the time, and he said, hey, would you like to go for your master's?

I think this would be a good step for you. And he said, and I'll sponsor you for it. And so, it was when. National Technology University was a virtual campus, so I would take some of the courses while I was there on site at home. And then every semester you would take a trip to a university and meet your fellow classmates and meet your professors for that semester.

That like I said, had some great mentoring. And supporters during my career at IBM and at CPS Energy and some of those folks I'm still really close to today some are retired still, some of 'me are in their, I call it their second career. But I think that was really important to have some good mentors that you could go and have a non-work-related conversation and say, off the record. Here's what I want to pick your brain about. And that was always important.

Linda: Lawanda, when we worked together at the co-op and the project was very large scale you had some pretty high-end skills in project management and putting a team together. And where did you learn that and what would your advice be in project management?

Because I think it's important and important for young people and young people getting into these professions that you seem to run into needing that skill. A lot of jobs that you do, and maybe you could talk a little bit about your experience there and how you got so good at it. I remember when I first started there that I was very impressed with the, the way that project was laid out when I got there.

Lawanda: Yeah, and it's because, it's funny because again I went back to some of the skills I picked up when I worked at IBM, but at the time, sometimes you have to reach back and reach back to folks that you knew from maybe two or three jobs ago. And say, hey, can you come help me? And my thing was always look for people that are smarter than you.

Don't be intimidated by people that are smarter than you. Just accept. They know stuff that I don't know and I need their help. And go back and ask them, hey, got an opportunity if you're interested. And look for diverse. And sometimes look for people that. May not think like you, that they're going to question what you tell them to do.

They're always going to push back. And sometimes you need that because you're so focused on getting the job done. And I've had some and I knew who they were, and I knew they do good work, and they get results, but they were going to push back on practically everything I asked them to do. But they were smart. And I think that's the key is don't be afraid to hire people that are smarter than you.

And people that you think probably don't think about approaching a situation different than you. It can be a, it can be a very diverse team and like I said, and go back and hire people that, look back and find those people that you used to work with and say, and while I was at IBM, I got an opportunity one time to build a team from the ground up.

He said, here's the job. You go find people that you think can help you do this job. Tell me who they are, and I'll get them. And rarely do you get that. And of course, some of the people that I wanted, their managers didn't want them to come, but he said, you tell me who they are, I'll let you hire them.

Of course, then you had to show some results because if you went and kicked off a bunch of, other colleagues and stealing their best people, it wasn't going to be really popular.

Linda: One of the things I had to remind myself was once, once I did give them that, that thing that maybe they weren't going to do it the way I thought it should be done, but I trusted them and they were smart, is to keep trusting them and let them run with it.

And I saw you do that a lot too, and that's sometimes a hard thing to do.

Lawanda: That is one of the hardest things is to hire somebody for the job that you used to do. Oh my God. You're excited. You look at it and say, oh, I just want to go tell them. Don't do it like that. Don't do that. And that is the hardest job to feel is the job that you used to do. For me, it was at least.

Linda: So I had to tell myself, okay, if the outcome, I'm worried about, like when you say, when you say, don't do it that way, the outcome that I'm worried about, I always had to tell myself, okay, how much of a risk is it if the outcome is bad? If it was a huge risk.

Then I might offer some suggestions or anything. But if it's not such a huge risk it was helpful to analyze that and say, okay, that is nothing that can be hurt there. It's a good learning tool and it's, it's a small thing.

Lawanda: But one of my biggest struggles to learn was standing up in front of people and doing presentations. That was a struggle for me 

Linda: really 

I, that did not show. 

Lawanda: Because I was introvert. I'm a techie, I'm an introvert. Leave me alone. I'm testing, I'm doing this. Leave me alone. Don't ask me a question.

Go out the room and now you got, you want me to come up and tell you what I was doing and make a presentation? Oh my God. I wouldn't sleep two or three nights just thinking about having to do it.

Kathy: How, did you overcome that. 

Because that, that, that is something that we talk about a lot on here and a lot of people struggle with that. Especially I think in, in STEM fields because we are, a lot of us are introverted.

Lawanda: It was just Sure. Stage fright doing it. I don't have an easy, I don't have the magic bullet of, I did this, and it worked. It was just a lot of stage frighting, two or three nights of not sleeping and just, making sure I looked, stand in front of the mirror, make sure you're practice it right before on camera. But I never loved the way I sound on a recording, and I never got past that. And so, a lot of times I'd listen to it one time and I wouldn't listen to it anymore because I just didn't like the way I sounded.

Kathy: Host a podcast. You'll get over that. because especially if you'd edit your first like 75 episodes yourself. You get yourself over and over at nauseum. Are you comfortable? Are you comfortable presenting now? Did you get comfortable with it?

Lawanda: I am. I am. I think that's just time at the job of doing it. But that was a big deal at the beginning for years and years. That was just, oh my God, I got to get up and do this presentation.

The worst. The absolute worst, though, was when your boss asked you to do their presentation at the last Oh.

Kathy: When it's not material and it's not material that you've developed, if you're developing the material, it's easier, I think.

Lawanda: Yeah, you at least knew the material. The fright was just having people look at you while you're doing it, but to take somebody else. And that was a week's worth of not sleeping, but usually it was the weeks’ worth because it was last minute.

Kathy: A hundred percent.

Yeah. 

Lawanda: That was the absolute worst.

Kathy: I think, at least like when I was in school, and I mean we're, I'm going to assume that this is going to be this case for both of you, like public speaking was not something that we had to learn at school. I know my kids. When they both in, starting out like probably like middle school, high school, college, they were doing presentations all the time.

Even in, computer science and different things they were presenting, they were giving project presentations and things like that, which is something that we should have been learning. When we were going to school. To your point, Lawanda I think everyone thought that, like you're a programmer or you're an engineer, you're going to be sitting back in a corner and no one's going to ask you to talk.

But that's so not the case. 

You have the best idea in the world, and if you can't talk about it, if you can't share it, you can't present it. It doesn't matter. It's not going anywhere. It's sitting back in the corner with you.

Okay, so Lawanda, one of the things that we started doing on the podcast was offering advice to people who either email or call in looking for some advice. I'm thinking we're going to call this ask the not experts. So, we're not pretending to be experts, we're just going to offer our opinions.

We've got. Two questions. This first one comes from Melissa. She says, I've been offered a promotion into management, but I'm worried it means I'll lose the hands-on technical work that I love. How do I decide what direction I should go? And also, by the way, this is not a question just for you.

This is like a question for us to just discuss amongst ourselves to offer collective advice. So, I will say this is something that I struggled with because I loved being technical and. I always said I didn't want to be a babysitter. That was what I considered management to be possibly falsely.

That was just my impression. But let me hear from you guys what you think about staying technical or going the management path.

Lawanda: I think you really, it's a tough thing to figure out and figure out your role as a manager, especially over a technical group, because what you don't want is to. As Linda said, don't trust the people that are doing the job. And if they feel that you're, down at their level trying to tell them what, how to do it, then you're not going to have a happy team and they're not going to work well together.

Because they're going to say, oh, here comes Lawanda, she's in here, tell us how to do this thing. So, it is a very delicate path to figure out how to manage a group of technical people. And I think the best thing you can do for them. Is get, create an environment that they feel comfortable coming to ask you questions about or come to you for consultation about, here's the way that we're approaching this particular issue.

What do you think? Do you think this is a good path? And if you keep your technical skills up, you can advise them and guide them as opposed to telling them how to do it. Because even the new hires, they come in with great ideas and so let them use those ideas to come up with solutions and be there to have them bounce ideas off of you and make sure that the path that they're taking is still one that leads to a solution that you're looking for.

But it is a delicate, in my opinion, it's a delicate walk between, losing your technical skills and not. Enabling your folks to do their jobs without a lot of hovering, I would say.

Linda: I agree. I think the hardest part is to, is all the adaption and the change that's going on within that because you're gaining new skills as a manager and a leader and trying to shape your people, just like you said, Lawanda and finding that balance between when to interject and when to let them run with something.

But then you also have to keep up on the technology side of things so that you can guide them. And not that you need to know it as detailed as you did, but just to keep your finger in it and understand what they're doing because, so that you can be helpful with them. So, I think that's the biggest challenge is you don't really lose it, you're just not as hands on as you used to be.

So, finding a way to keep yourself up to date and also being that manager for them. And it's definitely a divide. You don't want to keep in the hands-on day to day as much as you did either, because you have to develop your management and guidance skills.

Kathy: When both of you went into management in technology, do either of you regret that or are you glad that you went that path versus staying technical your entire career?

Lawanda: I don't look back and say, I wish I didn't do it. I think it was the right thing for me. Because again I got to go into areas and learn new areas for me. Because I did technical marketing for a while and I don't think I would've made those transitions like that if I'd stayed technical.

I don't think anybody would've hired me in marketing if I'd stayed a developer. But in management, for me, I got a lot more diverse experiences when I went into management than I think I would've had. Because I got outside of my technical and some of those jobs were a lot of fun, and so I got to do some fun things and still retain some technical skills that I don't think that they would've hired a pure technical person for if I hadn't gotten into management. So, I don't regret doing it now.

Kathy: What about you, Linda?

Linda: Yeah, I agree. I loved being in the management group. What I really liked, and Lawanda you hit on this a little bit, is learning from the people, learning from other people. And don't be afraid to hire that smart person. And I always felt that my peers in management were also teachers.

So not only did I have this new group to learn from, and then I could pass that on and be a mentor for some of my group, pay it forward for some of the mentors that I had. I loved the management. Part of the part of it I have no regrets.

Lawanda: there is a growth in management, not just in promotions, but in attitude. Because I've had some really challenging people to manage and at the time it wasn't fun. But when you look at it, look back at it now, and you said, huh, and you look back on your life in general and you say, I did learn a lot from that, managing that challenging person.

And I laugh about it now. It was, like I said, it wasn't fun at the time, but it did grow from the experience in dealing with, diverse personalities and just how to be a better person towards people who were living a different lifestyle than you and had experiences than you. And you can look back on it now and said, yeah, it was all worth it.

Kathy: All right. Next question is from Jasmine. My company is offering to pay for grad school, but. I don't really want to continue in this area. Should I take the opportunity or hold out and go to grad school later in something that I would like to do?

Lawanda: I had probably go with option two because if it's grad school of something that you're not interested in, it's going to be a stressor for you. Because you, yeah, you, it is going to be a stressor because the company's going to expect you to do if they're paying for it. For me, you'd have to work a lot harder for something that you're really not interested in.

I'd hold out. Because you may get an opportunity, you, another company to do grad school in an area that you're interested in. So, me personally, I would go with option two.

Linda: I would echo that. I would go with option two. I think it would be painful to study something. It's hard enough to put time aside to study things and I like to study things I'm passionate about, so I would take option two. And like you said, Lua, you're disappointing other people if it, if you're not going to be successful at that.

Although, if a company offered me grad school and I didn't take it, I would worry about the repercussions too. I think you'd have to think, am I in the right position? Am I, do you know, it might be a bigger decision.

Lawanda: Yeah, I got lucky that it was in an area that I wanted to study in and so it worked out really well for me. But I can't imagine right now if they'd offered me in something that I really wasn't really interested in. It helped that the gentleman had offered to me was. My mentor, so I probably would've felt comfortable saying no.

That could, it could be very different depending on who's asking you about that.

Kathy: Yeah, that's a good point. 

Linda: What would you do, Kathy?

Kathy: What would I do? I would not, because school is too time consuming. It's too emotionally draining. If it's not something that you're excited and you're fired up for, I think it's too hard. And if there were to be repercussions, then you're probably also in the wrong job.

Linda: Which is easier said than done to make all of those changes and to figure all of that out and to, give up a job, give up a paycheck, all of those things. I'm not saying it's an easy decision, it's that you just, nonchalantly do all of those things. But I think for me, like job joy, life joy is. And that has changed, right? Like I had three kids that I had to raise. And there are decisions you make for financial reasons at certain points in your life. But job joy and life joy, at least at this point in my life, is the most important thing.

Time to do some soul searching.

Linda: That's probably the best one I've heard yet.

Kathy: That is for sure a good one. Okay. We've got three rapid fire questions for you, Lawanda. I'm going to call them rapid fire, as Linda and I are finding out. They're not necessarily rapid fire, but we'll see how they go. Do you have a stem Hero?

Lawanda: I do not.

Kathy: Okay. Do you have a favorite STEM book, movie or TV show?

Lawanda: There is one, but I'm having, Because it's an old show. It's like CSI, techie, I forget what the name of it was, but it was one where the, all the. Investigators were actually IT people, and they were,

Kathy: Really

Lawanda: yes, like it forensics or something.

Yeah. Yeah. There's,

it's, yeah. It's so much fun in there. It's an old show, but it comes on one of the older channels and I tape them because I really, I still enjoy It 

Linda: It's 

Lawanda: my favorite one. 

Kathy: Interesting. Okay. What is the best advice you have been given or that you would like to give?

Lawanda: Look for your passion. Look for something that you enjoy doing. And like I said, I'll go back to what I said before. Don't be afraid to hire if you're a manager, hire people that are smarter than you and don't always think you're the smartest person in the room.

Kathy: Great advice. We should all live that advice in so many facets. Honestly. Really great advice. Lawanda, I am so glad that we got the opportunity to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm so glad that you have been here. Linda, do you have anything to add?

Linda: I just want to thank you, Lawanda. It's been so wonderful to catch up with you again and enjoyed working with you before and it's been a while since we've had the time to catch up and it's been just lovely. Thank you so much for being here today. Really appreciate you 

Lawanda: Thank you for thinking about me and inviting me to be a part of your podcast.

Kathy: Thank you and I [would like everyone to stay tuned for mine and Linda's recap. Thanks 

Kathy: I am hating my microphone stand. I have to say like my microphone keeps turning, which is really

Linda: I see you're hanging onto it now.

Kathy: Look at, see, look at this, and I can't fix it. I'm like, like,

Linda: Oh.

Kathy: I don't know, like, and I just, and I just bought this. And I just bought it, and I don't understand what the problem is. I'm like, this is where that that mechanical engineering would come in

Linda: Why can't you engineer it. Yeah.

Kathy: Although I couldn't seem to fix any kind of like audio problem this morning either. So, what kind of communication engineer am I,

Linda: Ahat was tough. And I don't hear it now at all.

Kathy: anyway.

Linda: Hmm. Yes.

Kathy: are you? 

Linda: Good. I'm getting tired.

Kathy: It's been a long day, and we've talked a lot today.

Linda: We have talked a lot. Yeah. And I, I forget how much sitting at a desk can make you so tired.

Kathy: I sit at a desk a lot. I should, you know, and I have a standup desk. I just am terrible about using it.

Linda: Yeah. I used, I had one too, and I didn't use it a whole lot. I was, um, I didn't use mine a whole lot either.

Kathy: I have really good intentions, the follow through. It's a little less than desired though. because quite honestly, like I really like to just like sit back and relax in my chair. I don't want to stand.

Linda: Yeah.

Kathy: Yeah.

Linda: Yeah. I don't either.

Kathy: But

Linda: Mm-hmm.

Kathy: All right. So, Lawanda, she was lovely. Had such a great conversation with her.

Linda: Yeah. She's so good. She's really, really good. Very professional.

Kathy: Well, and I just, I think it's amazing that there are women who have, are in stem who have retired, um, who have been in there for a long time. There should be more. There's not that many. Um, and I think, you know, I think when you're younger, at least like my younger self, so think like 30, 32 years ago when I just started. I had no idea how few there were. You know, like I didn't realize, um, how abnormal that is. And so, the fact that she has, you know, she started college, I think in the late seventies. Um, so going into technology I think was just, it was not, I don't, I don't want to use the word not normal, but not common. Maybe that's what I should say. Not common for women.

Linda: Mm-hmm.

Kathy: So good for her. I.

Linda: Right. 

So, this is that part where, where we don't really know anything, we're not experts, right? But in my opinion, um, engineering's been around for a long time, long, long time technology. Um, you know, around the years I was going to college and she was going to college, I went, I went to a vocational college, which, um, was something that I could afford to get to in my neighborhood Because we lived in the country and then there was not a lot of opportunity for computer science.

So, I can see where they would put it in with the business management degree. And I, you know, computers were just starting, like she said, the first PC at IBM was coming out and, um, all of that was just starting. So, um. I kept thinking, oh, I should change into computer science. I should change. Well, there was no school close to me and there wasn't very many, so I don't feel like there was a lot of opportunity for that kind of education then either.

Kathy: Well, so that's, you know, when we talk about the Venn diagrams of, you know, like, or the intersections of [where we end up, right? So, um, rural is hard. Right. There's not as many opportunities. So, when you are in a rural area trying to find a place that you can go that's nearby, that's affordable, that's hard.

I think that's, I mean, that I think is better because of all of the virtual things, the online things, um, which was obviously not available at the time that you would've been, you know, going to college. But one of the things that. I struggled with, with raising my kids in Brainerd was there weren't STEM opportunities for them like there was in the cities.

 I don't know if you are familiar with the Works Museum. The Works Museum is amazing. it's like this hands-on. Do, do you know what it is?

Linda: I don't,

Kathy: So, it's this, it's this hands-on museum in Minneapolis area. I think it's like Bloomington area. it has these wonderful camps. Kids can build things.

They have a laser harp where you like run your hand through this harp, but there's no strings. It's a laser, so you run your hand through it, and it strums, but there are no strings.

Linda: Oh my gosh.

Kathy: Um, it's such a cool place and. So, I found out about it when I was at GRE. I don't remember exactly how I found out about it, but then we were trying to like to do some stuff with them, um, and they actually would come out to schools and do like training of technology people in rural areas.

But there was no camp, there's no like, so like STEM programming and stuff, like all of that stuff is really hard to get when you're in a rural area. 

Linda: Well, and we couldn't just Google it. I mean,

Kathy: No.

Linda: You had to do your research. You had to go to the library and research and, um, try to figure out which college had had which material. And it was, you know, it was pretty

Kathy: Or you had to rely on, your guidance counselor, my friend Tami her guidance counselor when she said she wanted to go into engineering, said, oh no, you should go into teaching. So, you can also like get the biases of the people that you are trying to get information from who may not provide that information to you.

Linda: Right.

Kathy: Yeah.

Linda: It's just not normal. Right. It's, it's just not normal for them to do that. It's not part of their normal,

Kathy: Right. And

Linda: kind of think about careers with, with different people in mind. Yeah.

Kathy: yeah. Yeah. So, things are changing. Changing slowly. Not changing as fast as I'd like them to change, but they're changing, and I think it's wonderful that we got the opportunity to talk with her. And I love what she, you know, her career sounds fascinating. I am. Mm-hmm. I don’t know if I wanna, I am pleasantly surprised that she did not have any issues going to school or starting out in her career at that time.

Like I think that's awesome. That makes me really happy.

Linda: too. Yeah, me too.

Kathy: Because I had issues.

Linda: yeah.

Kathy: Um, so that's great. And. Yeah, so I'm, I'm so glad she had a really good, that she had a good experience.

Linda: Yeah,

Kathy: Yeah. 

Linda: It couldn't have been easy. Like she said, she, she had to focus into her work and, and, uh, I think that's probably what people did or had to do if you were a minority is probably focus on your work a little bit more than others. She didn't say that. I don't want to put words in her mouth. She did not say that, but she did go heads down and focus on her work

Kathy: See, I took that to just be that she had like a hard course load. I didn't take it to be that she had to do more than anybody else, but maybe

Linda: Yeah. I don't know. Sometimes. Did you feel like you had to do more than anyone else?

Kathy: not in school, but at work. Yes.

Linda: Mm-hmm. At work? I did at school. At school I didn't either. I didn't feel that way in school either. Maybe she didn't, but then, you know, and I made me think of, maybe it made me think of my own experience at work that I had to, um, felt like I had to prove myself a little bit more.

Kathy: I actually had one of my coworkers who I worked with for the, a good portion of my time at my utility after I had worked with him for maybe like 20 years. He told me that. I needed to, that he felt like I needed to prove myself more than I would've if, if I was a man. And also, he was a sucky engineer.

Like, I'm like, really? Like that was really surprising to me. And I don't know if I'm glad that he told me that. I don't really know how to feel about the fact that he told me that honestly. Like, um. I don't know why he told me that. I don't remember the context behind it. I just remember him telling me that and me being like, well, that's interesting because I'm better than you.

Linda: Yeah. And was it his perception? Was it, you know, was it the world's perception 

Kathy: Yeah. I don't, I don't

Linda: where was it coming from?

Kathy: But I know that that's the case for like a lot of women and I guess it didn't surprise me.

Linda: Mm-hmm.

Kathy: It's annoying and I would like that to not be the case, but it, it wasn't surprising, honestly.

Linda: Yeah, I loved the, the math reference again, you know how she loved math and, and I wonder if there's been studies about if you love math, you should do this. I'm sure there has been a lot, you know, I mean, but have they narrowed it down precisely. What would, what enjoyment you would find when you have a math brain.

Kathy: Well, and I think trying to find jobs that are strictly based in math is hard, right? Like when I'm trying to find, I'm using air quotes here, M's. To have on the Women in STEM podcast, it's really hard to find folks with the M because there's not as many jobs. So, like there's actuary accounting, although.

Typically, we don't usually think of like accounting and finance as being in stem. So

Linda: Mm-hmm.

Kathy: I, I, I don't totally know why that is. Um, I'll do like a little bit of fact checking and try and put that into the episode notes because I'm kind of curious about why we don't consider accounting and finance to be 

Linda: Mm-hmm. 

Kathy: part of stem, but at least in my mind, it's not really part of stem.

But I could be wrong too. Maybe it is, and I'm just not thinking about that. I don't know.

Linda: Yeah.

Kathy: Um, but it's, it's hard. I think that the, like data analytics is one that is now like kind of, kind of math centered. I love meeting women that have math degrees. Oh, oh, there was a woman I had on the podcast who she had, she was a math major, and then she ended up going to work I think for the military doing code breaking and then she worked on the encryption for Blackberry

Linda: Oh

Kathy: All with a math degree. Like she was fascinating.

Linda: Yeah, that does sound fascinating.

Kathy: So, you could be a code breaker.

Linda: You could, and those jobs are plentiful.

Kathy: Yeah. Um, one of the things that I, okay, so one of the reasons I left the podcast for like a year was I was starting to write like children's books. So, one of the books I'm working on is actually about math. I've talked to a number of people who did not go into engineering or STEM because they were discouraged because they were either told that they weren't good at math or they didn't feel like they were good at math or whatever.

Um, my husband wanted, he thought about going into engineering, but math was hard for him, or he was told he wasn't good at math. And I think that this is a common thing, like people think that math is hard or, and math is hard or, or can be hard, wasn't. It wasn't for me, like math came easy to me, but I think people either think that you're good at math or you're bad at math.

And the conversations I've had with women on this podcast, um, one is a tutor at, she has a degree from MIT, she's a tutor for, um, or she has a tutoring. Company, basically, like she has a tutoring company that helps people figure out how to do math. And then another woman that I had on my podcast, her son struggled with math and she, is of Russian descent, she found him a Russian math teacher to teach him a different way of doing math.

And, and oh, and then the math museum, I don't know if like, I don’t know if I've ever talked to you about the math museum. So, in New York City, there's the museum, um, the, is it the national, let's see. National Museum of Mathematics is in New York City, so I had the director of that on the podcast, and I was going to New York City, so I actually went to the museum.

There's a museum of math. It's amazing. Um, it's like, like think Children's Museum. It's like this hands-on museum. It's not like here's a calculator or a slide rule. It's not like that kind of a museum. It is like a hands-on museum and it's all about art and sports and all of these things that you don't think about with math.

And so, this book that I'm working on is really about that, of like how you find math in nature. You know, like when you think like the Nautilus shells and the Fibonacci series and. Um, patterns and music, all of that is math based, but we don't really think about that. And so, I think there's so many different ways of thinking about math and trying to get people to think about it differently that okay, even though like this isn't making sense in my head when I'm looking at numbers on a page that is not necessarily what math is.

And if you can like, think through and find somebody to help you make sense of it or. Figure out how to make sense of it on your own in different ways. I think math can be a lot more accessible to people than they realize. Also, there's math and art. Like that was another thing that, like, they talk about that a lot in the math museum too.

And these are all things that I like I never thought about before, but um. I think it's important for people to like to realize that math can be accessible. So, writing a children's book on, you know, if you're like, basically if you're like, confused about math, here are ways that you can find it in nature.

We'll see how that goes. But that's kind of like the, the idea behind it because it, I think people either think that you're good at it or you're not good at it. I don't know that that's the case. However, I was good at it, thank goodness be I didn't have, I didn't struggle with it. I loved bath. It was easy for me.

Linda: Did you like all maths Did you like all,

Kathy: No, no, no. I hated statistics.

Linda: So.

Kathy: Hated

Linda: Isn't that funny? And I love statistics.

Kathy: really.

Linda: I did.

How's calculus for you.

Linda: It. I don't really think I ever took a calculus 

Kathy: Uh, I loved calculus. Calculus was my favorite.

Linda: was it? I heard. Yeah, I heard you. And um, was it Lawanda saying calculus was her favorite? Yeah. Um. I, yeah, I don't know if I'd like it or not.

You know, there's differences between algebra and geometry and I was better at algebra than I was geometry. And some people say they like geometry better than algebra. So, you know, maybe sometimes people that try math don't try the right math. And you think about it, math is, um, it's just a set of problem-solving skills and sometimes you're, you know, you can apply them differently for different types of math, but some of them just don't click.

Kathy: Well, and also you can have bad teachers, right? Like I had like the, like when I, when I have fallen in love with math, it's because I have had really, really good teachers that make it fun. They make it interesting, they make it understandable, they're excited about it. Um. And, and thank God I never had a teacher that, you know, told me that I was bad at math because that would totally like, you know, when you're like that form, you know, in those formative years when I'm told I'm bad, well probably even still now when I'm told I'm bad at something, I quit doing it. You know? And so, you know how many people that are out there aren't, you know, living up to their full potential because they didn't know how to do it or they didn't have a good teacher or, you know, like. I don't know. I think the teachers make, make a world of difference and

Linda: Mm-hmm.

Kathy: it, it's just we need to, you know, make sure we can have a whole podcast on this, how we need to be paying our teachers better.

So, make sure that we're having good teachers.

Linda: exactly.

Kathy: So anyway, get off my math, my math soapbox. I feel like I want to do a math soapbox there.

Linda: I think we do often. It helps when you love it, but

Kathy: Yeah. Anyway, Lawanda was great. Um, so happy to have met her and, um, thanks for bringing her, bringing her to the podcast.

Linda: Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. Happy to bring her to the podcast and it was really fun to catch up with her again. We had a chance to catch up a little bit before you got on the call and just talk about how life is going. Her whole family lives really right near her in, uh, in Florida and, um, near the family farm, and I'm not, I can't remember if one of her family farm members still owns the farm or not, but she's close by that

Kathy: What do people farm in Florida? Or like oranges or like,

Linda: I don’t know. I really don't know.

Kathy: I'm just like,

I'm like, I'm thinking it's probably not like corn and wheat like up here.

Linda: Probably fruit, right?

Kathy: That's kind of what I would guess, but I don't know.

Linda: Yeah. Yep.

Kathy: Maybe she's sending us our oranges in the middle of winter.

Linda: Oh, that'd be nice, wouldn't it?

Kathy: That would be nice. All right, I'm going to go because I'm going to go take my dog for a walk with my daughter because she's done with her, with her working. And so, we're gonna go take the dog for a walk and it's beautiful out. It was a terrible like for foggy crappy

Linda: Yeah, it was, it was lots of fun. 

Kathy: Gotta go enjoy it in our last few days of summer.

Linda: right. I got to finish pressure. Pressure watching boy say that a couple times. Pressure washing my patio.

Kathy: Oh, that sounds, um,

Linda: it does, it actually isn't too bad. I bought one of those like disc things that go on the end of it, and I got it out of the box, got it from Amazon. I got it out of the box and I thought, how am I ever going to attach this?

This looks really funky and I, there's no way I can do this by myself. So, I thought, well, one step at a time, I took it out of the box, box, grabbed it, noticed it was one of those couplers that you just pull back and, you know. Put the nozzle in and let it go, and it, I don't even know what that's called, but it worked.

Kathy: You're saying it was easier than, it was easier than us getting our recording going this morning.

Linda: Probably yes,

Kathy: Nice.

Linda: yes. It was loud though. I had to go get earplugs. It was very loud,

Kathy: okay.

Linda: but

Kathy: All right. Well go enjoy that and

Linda: Have a good night.

Kathy: we'll talk soon.

Linda: Yeah. Bye Kathy. Thanks for everything.

Kathy: Bye.