137. Bonus Halloween Episode! Dr. Kristen Lear – Bat Scientist & Conservationist | It’s Bat Week!

In this bonus, Halloween and Bat Week episode, we talk with Dr. Kristen Lear, a bat conservation scientist, National Geographic Explorer, and If/Then® Ambassador whose lifelong passion for misunderstood creatures turned into a career protecting bat populations around the world.

Kristen shares how a childhood Girl Scout project building bat houses led her to a career at Bat Conservation International (BCI), where she now directs the Agave Restoration Initiative—a binational program supporting endangered nectar-feeding bats and the ecosystems (and tequila plants!) they rely on.

With contagious enthusiasm, Kristen explains how she uses infrared cameras, environmental DNA (eDNA), and community partnerships to track and protect migratory bats across Mexico and the U.S. Southwest. The conversation covers everything from bat “supermoms” and nocturnal fieldwork to tequila, rabies myths, and why bats are vital pollinators and pest controllers.

They also discuss Girl Scouts as a gateway to STEM, Bat Week (the annual celebration leading up to Halloween), and Kristen’s mission to make the world a friendlier place for these essential — and often misunderstood — creatures.

💡 Topics We Cover

• How Kristen’s childhood love of “underdog animals” led to a career in bat conservation
• Her early Girl Scout project building bat houses and creating a “Go Batty!” patch
• What bat scientists actually do in the field — from mist nets to infrared tech
• Using eDNA (environmental DNA) to track migrating bats through agave plants and hummingbird feeders
• The relationship between bats, agave, and the tequila industry
• Debunking myths about bats and rabies
• How to humanely remove a bat from your house
• What it’s like to work nights studying nocturnal animals
• Girl Scouts, mentorship, and how Kristen’s mom inspired her confidence
• Kristen’s work as an If/Then Ambassador and National Geographic Explorer
• Why Bat Week matters — and how you can get involved

🌎 Resources & Links

• Bat Conservation International: www.batcon.org
  
  
• Bat Week: www.batweek.org
  
  
• If/Then® Initiative: www.ifthen.org
  
  
• Follow Dr. Kristen Lear: LinkedIn – Kristen Lear
  
  

🧠 Key Takeaways

• You can make a career out of your childhood passion — even bats!
• Conservation is as much about people and partnerships as it is about science.
• Technology like infrared imaging and DNA sampling are transforming wildlife research.
• Myths about bats are being replaced with understanding — thanks to scientists like Kristen.
• Supporting pollinators helps protect ecosystems and local economies.

Music by Kay Paulus 

Follow Kay on Instagram @kaypaulus8

Transcript

Bat Conservationist Kristen Lear 

Kathy: Hi, and welcome back to ordinarily Extraordinary Conversations with Women in stem. I am absolutely thrilled today to have Kristen Lear. Actually, I should say Dr. Kristen Lear on the podcast today. I'm going to let her introduce herself and talk about her bio before we get into questions.

So, thank you Kristen, for joining us. So happy to have you here. And I am like, seriously, like, just absolutely delighted to talk to you.

Kristen: I'm, I'm excited to be here. I love to chat about bats. I could talk about bats all day, Yeah, I can give a brief kind of intro. So I am a bat conservationist, which means I work around the world to study and protect. Bats from Extinction. I am currently working at the nonprofit Bat Conservation International as the director of our agave restoration initiative. So I lead our binational agave initiative to restore these important agave plants for threatened pollinating bats and to support local livelihoods. So I um, have been at BCI for a little over five years now. Have been studying and working with bats since I was an undergrad, so it's been over 15 years.

Getting to learn about bats and work to protect them,

Kathy: Okay. And your undergrad degree is in zoology, is that correct?

Kristen: Yes

Kathy: What is your PhD in? Because I know you're a bat scientist, I'm like, is there like a ologist that goes with a bat scientist 

Kristen: Yeah, I mean, kind of, but it's more so I, I studied zoology as an undergrad, which is the study of animals basically. And as part of that, I started learning about bats. And then in grad school for my PhD, I got a PhD in integrative conservation and forestry and natural resources. So basically the conservation aspect of bat conservation. there are bat labs out there who focus specifically on, you know, various aspects of bat biology and bat ecology. But I went a little more broad so that I could learn more of the conservation aspect and apply it to bat conservation.

Kathy: Okay so you started in Zoology and what got you interested in bats and 

like, was it something you were interested in like as a kid or was it as you were getting into Zoology that you started getting interested or what got you interested in it?

Kristen: so I've loved bats since I was a kid. I have always rooted for the underdog. I, really think bats are one of those kind of misunderstood creatures like spiders and rats and, you know, snakes bats fall into that category and I've always been drawn to those, those kind of more misunderstood animals. And so as a kid I grew up in Girl Scouts. I'm a lifetime member of Girl Scouts. And we would take night hikes during the summer and we would see bats, you know, flitting around in the evening above our heads hunting for insects. And at that point, I didn't really know much about that. So, you know, I was, you know, 10, 12, but I started to look more into them, started to read about them. And so in sixth grade for my Girl Scout Silver Award project, I built bat houses to help, you know, my own local hometown bats And that's when I realized like bats are in need of, of help. But you know, a 12-year-old me didn't really know that you could make a whole career out of working with bats.

Kathy: 54-year-old me did not know that you could make a career out of that either.

Kristen: Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, growing up I heard about, you know, wildlife biologists or conservationists who worked with gorillas or chimpanzees or wolves or dolphins, you know, the big charismatic animals and I, you don't, you didn't hear about, you know, bats as one of those things that you could work with. So, you know, as a kid, I carried that interest forward. And, you know, I read about bats but didn't really know I could do anything with that. And then in college, as an undergrad as a zoology major, we actually had a seminar class, my first year of college where. It was a seminar class all about bats.

That was the title bats. And we got to kind of self-direct the students. We got to pick the research papers that we read. We got to pick what we wanted to learn about bats. And that's what I discovered like. Wow. There's a whole field out there researching and working with bats, and that's, yeah. That ever since then, it's been a passion.

Um, And got to get some hands-on experience as an undergrad doing bat research in Texas as an undergrad field assistant. And that's when I, yeah. fell in love with it. Ever since then.

Linda: So now I'm curious about Girl Scouts. um, You said that you built bat houses for Girl Scouts and I was a Girl Scout leader for many years when my daughter went to Girl Scouts and I'm picturing a bat badge. Is there a bat badge in Girl Scouts?

Kristen: So, not at the national level, but, there are several from different councils, throughout the country. And I actually worked with my hometown council, the Girl Scouts of Western Ohio to develop a bat patch patch program where the girls. Could do these activities and earn this bat, you know, batty patch.

Linda: Yes. Patch. 

Kristen: yeah, well there's badges and patches.or, you know, different,

Linda: No, that's great. 

Kristen: I love that!

Linda: I want one now.

Kristen: I'll have to hook you up. They're pretty cute. Yeah. They, yeah, definitely. Just Google, you know, bat Girl Scout, bat patch or badge,

Linda: Yeah, I will. That's great. Good

Kathy: Is it bat shaped?

Kristen: It is, it's got, 

Kathy: is there a bat on? 

Kristen: it has a little bat on it.

It's really cute. Yeah. Go batty.

Yeah. It's pretty cute. 

Linda: love 

Kathy: I was, I was also a Girl Scout troop leader for my daughter. I was, but we didn't do anything with bats. And now I'm kind [of regretful. I mean, 'cause, and I saw, I, like I watched your videos on building bat houses and now I'm thinking that I'm gonna like build some bat houses for my, for my woods 

Kristen: So when I built my bat houses for my Girl Scout project, it was in the nineties, you know, the mid nineties. And you know, back then we didn't really have the internet as much as we do now. There wasn't as much research on the effectiveness of bat houses to actually help bats.

And so, yeah, looking at the pictures, oh my gosh, the bat houses that I built. We're not the best. They're not kind of up to the standards that we would want to see nowadays, but, you know, it was that

Kathy: So if the bad house inspector came by, they would not like.

Kristen: Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, looking at the pictures, I like, I cringe like me holding my little bat house and I'm just like, oh God, those are not the best.

Linda: I bet the bats

Kristen: Well, actually funny story not, not funny at the time, but I went back to check my bat houses in the park where I had put them up in Ohio you know, like a month after I put them up. And I was so excited, you know, 12-year-old me to go check and see if any bats were living in there. And we got to the park and we got up to the. Places where they were installed and I saw all these pieces of wood on the ground. Somebody had come by and vandalized my bad houses and then tore them down. Yeah. Who knows who. But you know, you can imagine 12-year-old me was pretty devastated. Um, Yeah. But you know, I learned. You know, that didn't stop me.

I build bad houses now with Girl Scout troops in schools and trying to help them make them better than the ones that I built and hopefully not get torn down.

Kathy: Well, I watched some of the videos that were on, like your links and your website and stuff, and so, and you go through like how to make them, and you have like, like a cutout of what The bat house, the inside of the bat house looks. Okay. But you're, you're. Also like it's not that big. And I think you said there's just like 300 to 500 bats that could live in this bat house.

Kristen: Depending on the side, yeah, they can

Kathy: I'm thinking like a clown car.

Kristen: I mean it's like some species, like a hundred bats per square foot can squeeze into a square foot of wall. I mean, that's not all bats, but, oh yeah, they're, they can fit in really tight spaces. And they actually like that. They're very social. They like to be in colonies with their, you know, colony mates or roost mates. So yeah, they can fit a lot in those bathhouses.

Kathy: Okay. I also wanna ask, so you said that you did like, field research when you were in undergrad. What do you do when you're researching bats?

Kristen: Yeah, so that's the cool thing about bats. There's so much you can study because bats are this kind of really hard thing to, to study. You know, mostly fly around at night. They have acoustic echolocation calls that are above our frequency of hearing. So for the most part, so it's hard to hear them.

It's hard to see them 'cause they're out at night. They fly really far distances, so it's just really hard to study them. And so because of that, you know, the field of bat biology as a field really is, you know, decades old, you know, not hundreds of years old, like some other studies other fields.

And so that makes it exciting. Lots of questions you can answer. And so for what I was doing, we were down in Texas. I was working with a PhD student who was working in Texas pecan orchards. She was studying the pest control services of these bats in pecan orchards. So. Are these bats eating the pecan nut case bearer moth.

It's one of the primary pest of pecans. so what we were doing is we would catch the bats. We used things called mist nets. They look like these gigantic hair nets. You know, those black little hair nets that are like 40 feet long and the bats fly into them at night, they, it's hard to see them, even though bats are not blind.

They all can see. But they're flying so fast they don't see these nets and they get tangled. So we catch them and then we, you know, record measurements like weight what species they are, how healthy they are. And then in our case, we were tracking these bats. So we were attaching little gluing, like with little surgical glue, so not hurting the bats little radio transmitters to the back of the bat.

And then we'd released the bat and it would go fly around and do its thing. And we would then use these giant antennas and run around the, and drive around the fields and the roads. Trying to find where these bats are going. And so that we were tracking them um, was a, a big part of what we were doing.

And the work that I do with Bat Conservation International, now I work with pollinating bats that feed on the nectar of agave plant. You know, these big blooming agaves and so I used for my PhD work I used infrared cameras to monitor and watch these bats feeding from agave flowers. So I got to use, you know, the really cool infrared technology to, to see these bats at night when.

it's Pitch black. And yeah, doing, I worked in Australia for a year. Again, worked with some really cool technology thermal imaging cameras. So, you know, like in the movies with the heat maps of, you know, things we got to use those to count bats emerging from a, a cave and we were trying to count about 40,000 bats with this.

So not by hand. We had some cool automated technology to help us, but got to do that. And then a more recent thing that I'm working with is eDNA or environmental DNA. We are tracking the pollinating bats that I work with, we're finding where they're migrating through, by using eDNA. So we're swabbing we're sampling blooming agave plants and people's hummingbird feeders.

In the southwest to pick up their spit the spit that they leave behind on the, these plants and these hummingbird feeders. And then we can swab that, send it off to a lab, and they can tell us from the DNA in that spit what species of nectar feeding bat was there. So it's, yeah, really cool, kind of cool technologies that we can use nowadays.

Linda: So tell us more about the Hummingbird Feeder in the bats.

Kristen: Yeah. So in the southwest, like Arizona, very southern Arizona and New Mexico. For sure. We know that these bats are coming to people's hummingbird feeders at night. You know, hummingbird feeders, it's sugar water, right? It's just pure sugar, and that's what the bats are eating. They need a lot of this sugars.

I will say it's not the best food source, you know, it's not the most nutritionally rich food source. But,

Kathy: I heard that for humans too.

Kristen: yeah. Sugar, right? I hate to admit it. I love sugar, so it's, yeah. But you know, they, they like, oh heck, it's a free food source. So they, yeah. They go to people's, you know, porches at night and they're coming and they're feeding from the, the feeders and getting that nectar or that sweet sugar water, 

Linda: Huh. So you found that they were pollinating there as well. Was that pretty successful study where you had some good data science behind

Kristen: Yeah. So yeah we, we've worked a, a lab, a northern Arizona university to develop basically the method to be able to identify which species are, are there from the spit, you know, from the DNA left behind. And so, yeah, we can get down to species level. Which is really important because there is one of the three nectar feeding bat species that migrates into the US is an endangered bat.

It's an endangered species, and unfortunately with traditional you know, survey methods, like acoustic calls that are non-invasive, we cannot distinguish that endangered bat from another related species. You have to, well, before eDNA, we had to catch the bats in hand and take measurements. And from those measurements of the bat, we could then say, it's this endangered bat, or it's the other species.

And that you can imagine, first of all, catching bats is hard. It's hard to catch these bats. They're. You know, it's logistically difficult. And then also it's pretty invasive, right? We're interrupting their nightly foraging, we're putting them under stress, you know, when you handle them, we're not hurting them, but, you know, they get stressed.

And so we want to minimize that as much as possible. And that's where the eDNA comes in is. We don't have to interact with the bats at all. We can just go during the daytime to a, a blooming agave or a hummingbird feeder and swab it and then ship that off to the lab and they'll tell us it was Which species? Yeah.

Kathy: Well, I was thinking when you were talking about this too, that is a lot of your work done at night, but now

Kristen: Yeah.

Kathy: Is this changing that?

Kristen: Yeah, it kind of is. So yeah, a lot of work bat work traditionally is at night, right? That's when they're out. So, yes I'm a night owl by nature. I'm nocturnal. So 

Kathy: that's.

Kristen: it works out well. I think that's partly why, like a bat career has worked so well for me. 'cause I, I love the night, so, yeah.

So it traditionally, yeah, you're out at night a lot. You're doing a lot of that. Nocturnal work, but yeah, with things like eDNA or acoustics, even when you're, you just deploy the detectors and then you go back and collect the data later and you don't have to be out there. It's the, some of that technology's allowing us to be less nocturnal.

Linda: It makes for a good Halloween story that your nocturnal and the bats are nocturnal.

Kristen: I feel really bad. Like I know quite a few of my colleagues or BAT folks that I know are actually morning people. They're like very early morning folks. And so, I've always wondered how they deal with the whole nighttime aspect, but they make it work.

Kathy: Yeah, I am not a night person. Well, except for the fact that I don't sleep very well. So I guess this might give me something to do when I'm not sleeping, but,

Linda: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah.

Kathy: okay. So one of the things I like to talk about on here is like, what is I. A typical day typical in your job, which I'm guessing there's probably no typical anything I'm guessing, but kind like what do you do like day to day as a bat conservationist?

Kristen: So me personally, so I will say there is lots of kind of avenues to be involved in back conservation, and there's. It kinda is like a fit your need type thing. So, you know, when I was first starting out, you know, in my PhD and first when I joined BCI, my day-to-day was much more field work and going out and working, you know, outside with bats, doing that nighttime research and kind of. You know, that work and then the data analysis and the writing of of the papers and of the like, management plans for how we can protect bats from that research. But the more that I've kind of progressed in my career, it's, I'm more focused now on development of conservation programs and initiatives.

So, I'm less in the field doing the actual field work or data collection. I'm more on the. Kind of partnership development, you know, how do we find partners and integrate with partners, local partners to do the work we want to do? How I'm strategic planning, like what is the need for conservation for this species or this species and really planning that conservation work and then doing some of it in the field, but much more of that planning at this point.

Kathy: Well, okay, so that's, I think is kind of like something that I think is interesting in a lot of, I'm just gonna say like careers in general. I think it would like STEM or whatever, like as you progress through your. Career. uou go from like the stuff that is probably like what got you excited and into it and interested and you're in the field and doing more hands-on stuff and then, you know, gradually like move into management or, you know, whatever it is, or strategy or like big picture.

Do you like that or do you miss the hands-on stuff? Like where's your sweet spot in your

Kristen: So I, I love what I do. I love to work with people to, to do the conservation work. For me it's just as exciting as getting to go out and work with the bats. And so for me, this is kind of an ideal spot because I'm still intimately connected to the bats and to the conservation challenge.

Like I spent, you know, six plus years studying these bats, the endangered Mexican long nose bat, the agaves, working with rural communities in Mexico and local partners. So. I'm still very much connected and tied to that, but I then get to use the people skills, right? And connecting and getting folks excited and getting people involved.

And for me that's where the excitement lies is getting folks excited about back conservation.

Kathy: okay, so who are like your strategic partners and like what is that process of like finding those people? How do you go about that part of your job?

Kristen: Yeah, so for our agave restoration initiative here at BCI, we have over a hundred partners who we have worked with [00:19:00] and are working with to restore this binational, migratory corridor for these bats. So you can imagine that takes a lot. Of people, a lot of groups on board.

It's not just BCI going out and planting agaves. It's way beyond that. And so our partners include. You know, all the way from a seed collection. So we work with local native plant nurseries in the us. We work with community nurseries in Mexico to collect native agave seeds from, you know, healthy agave stands, and then grow those little seedlings in the nurseries for two to three years until they're big enough to plant out on the landscape.

And then when we're planting, we're working with partners like. Private landowners in the US like ranchers, for example. We work with a Hido communities in Mexico. Government agencies, you know, forest Service BLM, here in the US and Kamp and Mexico to get these agaves planted on the ground.

And of course, we work with a very strong network of local conservation NGOs, other conservation organizations like BCI, who are doing this work. And so it's, you know, when you, when we're starting, it's like finding the folks who are already doing great work. Locally and trying to integrate agave restoration into that work.

So it's not like you're just coming in cold and saying, let's plant agaves. That's not kind of our model. Our model is to really integrate it with the local work that's happening to advance their goals and their work as well as bcis work

Kathy: so bats are migratory.

Kristen: So, yeah, so great question. So some bats are migratory. Some bats hibernate, you know, and they stay in, in the northern regions, but some do migrate. So the bats that I'm working with, there are three species of pollinating nectar feeding bats that migrate annually between central and southern Mexico. 

They migrate northward in the spring and then they stay up in the southwest us. So Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. In the summer and the fall, and then they, in the fall they migrate back south down to Central Mexico. And so yeah, they're undergoing this over 700 mile migration every year. It's like the hummingbirds and the monarchs.

It's that same thing where they're. They have this ingrained migration. And it's the crazy part about this migration is that it is primarily pregnant females that undergo this migration while they're pregnant. So it's a crazy thing, like why are these females migrating so far to give birth up north and then migrating back south with their baby, you know, in the fall. It's what they do.

Kathy: Okay, so they go north to like the hottest part of the US in the summertime. 

Kristen: Yeah, pretty much. Yep. They're,

Kathy: When I was pregnant during the summertime, I was trying to get as far away from the heat as possible,

Kristen: Yeah. You know, 

Kathy: they're going towards the heat.

Kristen: they're going towards the heat. One thing that does help is they are out at night, so that helps a bit with the heat. But yeah, they it's just crazy thing where they're following this blooming, trajectory of the food plants.

So the agave plants, and in some areas columnar cacti, like Saguaro cacti also feed these bats. And those agaves and those cacti are blooming at certain times of year in different parts. So they, the bats kind of have to follow that blooming

Kathy: they're following like their food line.

Kristen: To feed themselves. And then, yeah, they raise their babies up in northern Mexico and in the southwest US, and then all migrate back together in the fall.

Kathy: all right. So the only thing that I could maybe like relate this to, so Linda and I both live in Minnesota. We have loons, loons, um, migrate from Florida in the wintertime to up here in the summertime. They mate for life. They have their babies. They're very family oriented when they're [00:23:00] here. Do the babies go back with the moms?

Do the babies, like, how does that work? what is family life like?

Kristen: great question. So one of the really cool and crazy things about bats in general is that most bat moms only have one baby per year. So they are not giving birth to litters. They're not, you know, not like, they're not closely related to rodents. They're very kind of distant. They don't give birth to like 10 babies at a time, and they only give birth once a year.

And so that makes 'em really special for a mammal of that size. They are mammals. They do also feed their baby's milk, you know, like we do. So the mothers, yeah. Nurture their one little baby with that milk until the baby is old enough to fly and find food on its own. Yeah. And bats like some bat species.

You know, the baby goes out with the mom and her little group to go forage at night. You know, the mom kind of shows them the ropes. Like, here's where good food is, here's an a good agave plant. And then those babies kind of remember that over the years and yeah. And then they all migrate back south together in the fall,

Kathy: So before they can fly, before the babies can fly, are they like attached to the mom? When the mom is flying? Do they stay in the cave? What is the baby doing?

Kristen: Good question. So they, so the bat moms can actually fly with their baby until the baby is about half of the mom's body weight, which is crazy. Imagine flying around with a, you know, half your body weight thing holding onto you.

Yeah, exactly. So, no, they, the bat moms, I like to think of them as super moms because they really.

They really are superpowered, they can do all these crazy cool things. But, you know, carrying that big baby around is a lot of work. And so for the most part, they will leave the babies in the cave or in the tree roost wherever they're roosting, while the mom goes out and forges and they'll leave them in these little kind of nursery groups in the cave.

So all the little babies are together in this little. Group on hanging on the wall and the bat moms can actually tell and find her own baby. Even when there's millions of these little babies in the cave, they can find their own baby from scent, from smell, from location where she left it. So they are very good at remembering this is my baby and I'm gonna take care of it.

Kathy: Oh wow. That's amazing. Okay. What's Dad bat doing at this time?

Kristen: So, yeah, most, for the most part. So for the Mexican long nose bat, for example they don't migrate for the most part. They stick around in Southern and Central Mexico during

Kathy: They're hanging out at the bar

Kristen: Yeah, we actually call them bachelor colonies 'cause they will stick around with their other male friends. We all, while the females are migrating.

Pregnant. It's crazy. But yeah, many bat species the males, you know, they come together, the males and females to mate, and that's pretty much it. Part ways. 

Kathy: One night stand.

Kristen: I know. It really is. It really for the most part. Yeah. yeah, the, that's why the mom bat moms are super moms. Yep.

Kathy: Wow, that's, that is amazing. Okay, so speaking of moms, I know like when I was reading about you, you said, so like Girl Scouts and your mom were like two of your biggest influences. So tell me about like your mom being an influence and how she influenced you into what you went into study and what you do

Kristen: Yeah, so my mom was my Girl Scout troop leader all the way from when I started in daisies all the way through high school. I stuck around. I know it was one of those things growing up where it wasn't cool to be a girl scout starting in like middle school, but I thought it was cool. And so I continued Through high school. And my mom, yeah, was my troop leader that whole time, and she really encouraged me to kind of stick my neck out in certain situations when I wasn't necessarily super comfortable with something she would encourage me to try. Like with we had a cadet senior association back then.

When I joined that, I went to my first CSA meeting in my council, and that meeting happened to be the election day for the officers for the next year for the organization. And nobody was running for secretary.

And I was like. I loved taking notes. And my mom was like, you should stand up and say you wanna run for secretary. And I was like, are you kidding? This is my first meeting. Like, I don't know any of these girls. But I did, I put my hand up and I ran and I gave my little speech. I like made a little speech and like a minute and read it.

And of course I got it 'cause I was the only one running. And yeah, and then I progressed on to become, you know. Co-president and president, you know, the older I got. So just her encouraging me to take those risks I think has carried into my adult life, into my career of you might not think you're the best fit for something.

You might be nervous about something, but you can't get things if you don't try. So that's kind of my motto is try. Yeah.

Kathy: Yeah. What do your parents do? 

Kristen: so my mom's a physical, well they're retired now, but she was a physical therapist and my dad was a mechanic, so a car mechanic. well my dad led some of our like workshops for our troop. He did like a car mechanic badge workshop with us and helped me. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. 'cause I, and helped me build my bat houses.

Like, I was never the, I still am not the mechanical like. Know how to put things together, type I'm not, that's not

Kathy: I'm an electrical engineer. If I was a mechanical, like there's no way

Kristen: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I'm like, okay. So that was always made me nervous. So yeah, my dad helped me a lot with that. Yeah, I like taking things apart. So, and then, yeah, my mom again just really.

Pushing that my interest in nature and my interest in stem, like we would go camping. We, you know, took family trips to the beach sometimes and got to like, dig in the dirt and help my grandma garden growing up. So just those experiences of like cultivating that interest in nature and animals from a very early age.

Kathy: what is the most surprising thing to you both about bats when you like learned about them and also about just like your job, like what things have surprised you?

Kristen: So, I think one thing that I've been really excited about with over my, you know, 15 ish years of working in bat conservation is the shift in people's perceptions and attitudes towards bats. That has been something that has been pleasantly surprising in that, you know, when I first started out, people thought I was crazy, like my own family. Like, oh, you're studying bats. Like that's a little weird, isn't it? And like they're creepy and they still think that kinda, but there's that more broader public recognition of the importance of bats to our ecosystems, to our economies, to maintaining, you know, healthy economies and ecosystems really.

Um, And just how cool bats are. And I think that's been something very pleasantly surprising is that. If you don't necessarily think bats are cute and cuddly and un cool, a lot of people are recognizing their importance more and more, which is awesome.

Linda: So bats are protected in most states. Right. I, well, I was doing a little bit of research in Minnesota because my brother had bats in his house just recently. And I believe they're protected in Minnesota and you know, you need to probably get professional help to try to get them out.

Well, sometimes. It's not really easy to do when it's in the middle of the night you have this bat in your house, but what would, you know, talk a little bit about protection and then I'm also really curious, and maybe our listeners are too, about if you do get a bat in your house, what do you do?

Kristen: Yeah. So two great questions. So yes, with the protected status, you know, there's different status levels of protection, right? Endangered for the us, for states, internationally and in general. Bats in the US are protected. The issue with that is, or the kind of challenge is that. There's no, it's hard to enforce, right?

So if you're an everyday homeowner and you have bats in your house, you go to a website, you know, pest control, people will google pest control or pest removal. And these, all these companies come up that are say, oh, we can get rid of your bats. They're not necessarily. Certified in any way to do it legally and properly and humanely.

And so that happens quite a lot is you'll get these people who aren't doing it the best way and then can harm the bats. And that's what happens, I think, is people just go to Google and the first people that come up are not necessarily the. Doing it the right way. And there's really, there's no enforcement, there's nobody out, there's no back police, you know, citing you. It doesn't really happen.

Kathy: Batman. There's no Batman.

Kristen: there was. I wish there was, but I mean, I get it. 'cause it's so easy with the internet nowadays to just Google and just find someone that's easy and cheap enough for you to afford and like, I totally get that. So the thing if you do have, thats in your house you know, try to go to a website or a company or an organization like that, conservation International.

Who actually works with bats. And there's like BCI, we have tips on our website on how to exclude bats from your house humanely and you know when to do it. How to do it with like one way exclusions so the bats can get out. In the evening, but they can't get back in so you're not trapping bats inside your house and killing 'em.

So yeah, go find, you know, VCI has tips or your local wildlife department will have likely has information on that. Also wildlife rehabers or rehabilitation groups often have information about bats. So yeah, look for those sources instead of just what comes up first on, on Google. 

Linda: I found a source in Minnesota that manages bats and they work on donations and they are about protecting bats. And I thought it was interesting that one of the ways to get rid of 'em was to lie still and open a window and shut all the lights off.

Kristen: Oh, yeah. So if you, yes. So this is the case. If you have a bat, like one single bat flying around in your house, like they actually got, they found a crack somewhere and got into your room. Yes. If you. Like they said, open all the windows and the doors. Turn your lights off inside and turn the lights on outside so that they can see, oh, there's the lights.

Like go to the light. You know, that's what they'll try to do is they'll try to escape, so Yeah.

Linda: I thought that was great advice. I thought,

Kristen: Yeah. Don't panic. That's step one. Don't panic. Don't get the broom and whack him down, please. I mean, I get it. It's not, yeah. But that's, yeah. That's a great way to do it. 

Kathy: So I rafted the Grand Canyon in end of May 14 days. Amazing experience. We had four bat encounters of like guides and assistants and they all had to be evacuated when they had their bat encounter.

And it wasn't necessarily a bite, it was like, like if they got like hit. Or touched. And it wasn't any guests Also we had, and so this is like something else I wanna ask about, but we also had white rafts and the guides and assistants all sleep on the rafts that are at the river. I mean, there were bats flying around us, you know, like on the ground too.

Like a lot, this is like all 14 days. Like it wasn't just like one area. It was like the entire trip. Is that normal? Like, because I had like not talked to anybody else. Like we did not talk about bats before we started our trip. And it was like first night there was an assistant who had a bat encounter.

So like second day we're talking about evacuation all the way to like the very end of the trip. I've never thought so much about bats in my life and we're sleeping like out in the open 'cause like we don't wanna be intense. It's hot. I'm just like so curious about that and bats and rabies, like is that a thing?

Is there overreaction going on here? Like, I'm just super curious because I never thought about we have bats at home. I would've like, if a bat like brushed by me, I don't think I'd be going to the doctor to get like my rabies shots. But that's like basically what they're doing and I realize like, you know, well anyway, I'll let you

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess so.

Linda: I bet you wish to learned about that migration path before,

Kristen: Yeah.

Linda: Kathy?

Kristen: Yeah. Really. I know. Well, yeah, so that's really funny that you mentioned that the, the rafts and like the water, so. Those bats were probably trying to drink either two things, drink water, because bats do actually drink. They skim over the surfaces of water bodies like streams or ponds to, you know, get water with their mouth 'cause they're thirsty.

So they were either trying to do that and or they were hunting insects like the mosquitoes, the midges, the flies that are. Near water. Often the bats are trying to eat those, so they're like darting around trying to chase those insects.

Kathy: Are they attracted to white things? Because we had a conversation about that too, that the white rafts might have been drawing them in and someone talked about like the white, like Batman light of that, like that would actually attract bats. Is that true?

Kristen: Yeah, it could be that that white kind of smooth surface of the raft looks like water or it kind of reflects like water, especially in moonlight and things. So potentially they maybe were trying to get water and they're like, oh wait, this is, oops, this is not water. And then it's too late and they whack into it.

So that's potentially, and then with the light, if you did have lights on, think about what congregates often around lights at night insects. The bugs, so those, so the bats are

Kathy: So it's not necessarily the white light, it's the insects that are

Kristen: Exactly. So that's probably what was happening. so yeah, that they're not out trying to attack you.

They're, you know, they're just, oops, having these little encounters. And then in terms of rabies is a very serious disease, you know, that it's, it's fatal if, if not caught and not treated. And so that's why probably those precautions were taken because it is so serious. But less than one half of 1%.

Of bats in the, like normal bats in the wild are estimated to have rabies to actually be carrying it. So if the bats are just flying around doing their normal activities, they're most likely not sick. They're just going about their feeding and their drinking water. Very unlikely that they had rabies.

And second of all, really to get rabies, it's through the saliva. you really need to be bit. But that being said, you know, people when they're ex quote unquote exposed to a bat, it's always good to be on the safe side, right? You wanna don't wanna risk anything. So that's why people do those the post quote unquote exposure shots and things.

But less than one half of 1% of bats out there are likely to carry rabies. And it's actually more common to come across a rabid skunk or a rabid fox than it is a rabid bat. So. Put that in perspective?

Kathy: Okay, so if someone were to like, have a bat that brushes by them, they don't need to go get rabies shots.

Kristen: No, I mean not again, unless they're being bit then

Kathy: But so what? What like we were told is like, you wouldn't know because the bat teeth are so small, you wouldn't know if you've been bit

Kristen: And that's potentially like, that's why people, if they wake up and they're like, oh my God, there's a bat in my room and I was sleeping. That's why they then do go to the hospital just to be on the safe side. Right? You don't wanna

Kathy: Okay.

Kristen: Play with that. But it's so unlikely. And it's, like I said, if the bats are flying around doing their normal activities they're probably not sick.

A rabid bat is like a rabid raccoon. It shows symptoms. It's gonna be on the ground, usually it's gonna be like acting weird, not flying. Right. And that's when you wanna avoid, like any animal that looks sick, you don't wanna get near them

Kathy: So we saw this bat that was like crawling out of a creek at 10 30 in the morning, like walking on its feet wings. I don't even know like what you would call it. It was obviously something wrong with it. What should we have done in that case?

Kristen: I guess two things. One is that some bats, like red bats, for example, in the US, can actually be flying around in the evening, in the morning, during the day. I've seen a red bat at around 10 in the morning flying around is hunting. For some reason, some of those species can actually. Do that and be, and they're not sick.

It's just part of their normal behavior. So it might not have been sick, 

Kathy: It was walking out of a creek

Kristen: Oh yeah. So if it was walking out of a creek, what probably happened is it might've been trying to drink and they have to skim, you know, get down all the way to that water surface and skim the water. And it might've just overshot, it might've just not judged the distance Right.

And crashed and then be like, crap. And they can swim. So like they're. Trying to get to the shore, and then it got to the shore, and so that's probably like, oh gosh. Just trying to get out and that likely.

Kathy: should we, so should we have left it?

I did not do anything. I was, so it was our guide and two people and two guests. And so we were talking about this and he went back and I believe that he killed it with a rock

Kristen: I mean in that case, if you're there, you know, I get that

Kathy: And then the blood squirted up and hit him in the face, and that was one of the bat encounters.

Kristen: well see this.

Kathy: so then he had to get evacuated, but then you're like, saliva. So I'm like, well, maybe the blood would've been fine.

Kristen: Yeah it's unlikely, but again, you don't wanna play around with it. And so this is one of the reasons why we do suggest not. Like handling bats, of course. Right? If you're not a trained bat biologist and if you are interacting with a bat in any way, you know, using really thick gloves, you know, not handling them themselves, trying to get them in like a box with a stick so you're not like coming into contact again, just like, you know, kind of any wild animal you don't wanna have contact.

Kathy: So So should we have left it? Because I think like the idea was like we wanted it to like, not like to be put out of its misery if it was sick. I think that was the idea. But should we just have left it? Or when I say we this, I mean it wasn't me, but should they have left it?

Kristen: I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm an advocate for trying to do that. Unless it's severely suffering or something. But probably, you know, letting nature take its course and it might've been fine and, you know, gotten to a tree they'll, they'll often like climb onto a. If they're on the ground, they'll find a tree or a rock wall, climb up that and rest while they get dry from the water or whatever, and recuperate, and then they'll fly off.

So yeah, I guess if it's not posing a threat, I mean, just leave nature, I guess. Yeah.

Kathy: Okay. All right.

Kristen: Good questions.

Kathy: Good to know. Little late, a little after the fact. So

Kristen: always you can always learn, you know?

Kathy: Okay, so, couple things. We're gonna try to like go through these like a little bit faster 'cause you have places to go. All right, so we have a question from Jenna, and this is like an advice section. So we call it like ask the not expert.

So we're not trying to be experts, we're just trying to provide our opinion. So this one I thought seemed like one that seemed like a good thought. I'm starting my junior year of college and am realizing I want to change my major. Is that a bad idea this late into college?

Kristen: No, I mean, I am an advocate for, you don't have, there's no right perfect time for anything. There's, you make the most, you make the most of it. Right? And so like. Obviously there's like logistical constraints you have to think about, right? If you're able to shift and stay a year or two more in addition, you know, those logistical constraints.

But I'm an advocate for. Not getting stuck in something you don't really like, [00:43:00] especially at that early stage. Like, you know, being far along in your college career might seem like you're far along, but you really have a lot of good time to figure things out, so.

Kathy: early on in life.

Kristen: Yes, exactly. I know. It always seems like, I mean, I remember, gosh, in college I thought like, I gotta figure things out now.

And, I think college is a great time to explore and it's a great time to, to really pursue those interests that you have. So I don't think it's too late. Of course, talk to your support network, your advisors, you know, see what they think. But I think it's

Kathy: Whoever paying the bill

Kristen: Yeah, I mean, of course logistical constraints always a factor, but you know, I would definitely say explore it and don't let it be like, no, you can't do it.

Kathy: Well, and one of the things that I think is crazy is that, you know, like we expect like our 17 and 18 year olds to figure out like, what are you to do for the rest of your life? And I think that's like the stupidest question to ask. Like, because like you could have. 4, 5, 10 different careers throughout your life.

Like I think it's more of like figuring out the skill sets versus like, what exactly am I going to do? Especially when you're 17 or 18. I

Kristen: Yeah.

Kathy: not to say that there's not some people that have it figured out, but most of us don't. Some of us are still figuring

Kristen: Oh yeah, I know. Yeah, no, that's yeah, with college, there's always that thing of, some people have it. Like they laser focused, right? Like, I mean, I was pretty, like, I wanted to work with wildlife, with nature, you know, with conservation. And then I discovered that, so I was pretty laser focused early on, but a lot of my friends weren't.

And they, they learned they developed their skills and their interests in college and then went on in different varying careers and pursued what fit them. Yeah.

Kathy: Okay. I have two other like quick questions for you. I'm not gonna rapid fire 'cause there's two things that I didn't ask you about that I wanna go back to. So you're an If/Then ambassador, which I think is amazing. Can you briefly tell us what that is for people who don't know?

Kristen: Yeah, so the If/Then initiative, it's an initiative to basically bring to light women in STEM fields who are working in varied STEM careers and showcase the work that they're doing to show that, you know, girls and anyone can have these really cool careers. And so as part of the if Then initiative, we were, over a hundred of us were selected as ambassadors.

From, you know, conservation fields, from engineering, mathematics, like just the range of stem fields to serve as these role models to showcase our careers and showcase our journeys in our careers to really be those role models for girls and other kids to pursue. So it's been a fantastic opportunity.

Kathy: Mm-hmm Is it something that people nominated for you,

Kristen: Yeah. Gosh, it was 2019, I believe so, quite a few years ago now that we applied. And yeah, they had a big rigorous selection process and selected a little over a hundred ambassadors. And then over the past, you know, few years we've had engagement opportunities with the media. There's a whole profile, a whole website if then.org where you can go and see.

The profiles of all these women STEM ambassadors, there's teacher resources. If you're a, you know, a K through 12 teacher or a college professor, resources for showcasing these careers and these women in your curricula. So it's a great resource and a great initiative.

Kathy: Yeah, and I'll add like it, it's short for, if you can see it, then you can be it, right?

Kristen: Yep. Exactly. Yep.

Kathy: Okay. I'll put links to this in like the episode notes and stuff too, but, okay. One more thing. You are a National Geographic explorer. I saw that on your LinkedIn profile. I feel like that would be like in my head, like a dream that I would have. What is that? What does and what does that mean for you?

Kristen: Yeah, so, gosh, back when I was doing my PhD work, so quite a few years ago now I had to support my research through grants. So I was fundraising, I was writing grant applications all the time to support my research, and one of those was a grant from National Geographic for early career. People like me.

And so I applied for this grant to support my PhD work and I got it. And so as part of that, um. funding. It wasn't just funding, you became part of the Explorer family. And I had the opportunity in 2019 to actually take the stage at the National Geographic headquarters in DC and give a lightning talk about my PhD research with these bats.

So I got to get up in front of hundreds of people and give a 62nd lightning talk. Um. About all the work that I was doing and these cool bats. So yeah, it was um, you know, having, being part of that explorer community opens up you up to collaboration, to, you know, working with other great explorers and really kind of gives that visibility to your work of, you know, this is, national Geographic believes in me and believes in my work. So it's been a great opportunity.

Kathy: Oh my gosh that sounds so cool. Okay. I feel like I could talk to you for like three hours, but I know you've got like places to go, so I so appreciate having you on here. Also, we are going to put this out, we're hoping to do a round Halloween, and I know you said like the last week of October is bat week, so we wanna talk about bat week, like super, super

Kristen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So bat week is a whole week leading up to Halloween where there are events, there are educational activities and resources kind of all around the world happening about bats. So if you go to batweek.org they have. Lots of educational resources and events and things posted about bats where you can learn.

And then, you know, BCI Bat Conservation International. We have our website as well that has lots of great resources and fun like arts and crafts and bat masks that you can make with kids. So if you go to batcon.org we have a lot of great resources as well.

Kathy: Well, I am so happy that I've gotten the chance to talk with you and learn more about what you do. Maybe we can have you on for like a follow up 'cause I like, I swear there's still like so many more things I wanna talk with you about.

Kristen: well, like I said, I could talk about bats all day, so Yes, we should

Kathy: You probably do.

Kristen: I do. Yep. But yes

Kathy: So thank you so much. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Really just delighted to have you on

Kristen: you so

Linda: Yeah. Thank

Kristen: yeah, everyone get ready for bat

Linda: just

Kristen: Yeah. Thank you.

Kathy: All right. I'm excited. All right. Thank you and everyone stay tuned for mine and Linda's recap. Thanks,

Kristen: Yeah, thanks.

Linda: thank you.

Kathy: all right, so Kristen. What'd you think of her?

Linda: Oh my gosh. Amazing. Amazing. Okay, I'll say this at first we got so into the geeky bat stuff that I'm trying to remember. I'm even looking at my notes.

What I thought. about her is just her drive from a young age being, her drive in Girl Scouts and quite a go-getter from a young age, and she just seemed to accelerate that. And now she's putting that energy into the bats, which is so interesting. She's literally bat crazy.

Kathy: The only time you can use that without being offensive. Right.

Linda: Exactly. And I should say crazy about bats so everybody knows. But 

Kathy: well,

Linda: yeah, it was really

Kathy: so peppy and so energetic and lively. She seems very much like an extrovert. Like that was the one of the things I didn't get to ask her about, like if she's always been that way or if she has to work it. I feel like it's just her personality.

Linda: Yeah, I think so too. From a young age.

Kathy: Yeah. She just,

Linda: I did look up the Girl Scout patch.

Kathy: oh, you did?

Linda: Yes,

Kathy: you gonna get one can order one.

Linda: Several, well now I have to pick which one there's one for Minnesota. I think

Kathy: Oh,

Linda: that it alluded Google alluded to one in Minnesota, but I don't know if that was just a search engine or not.

I have to find that there's also one for building bat houses. And then there was one from Long Island. So yeah there's, there's several bat patches. I think they should have patches for adults.

Kathy: they should.

Linda: Can I be an adult girl Scout?

Kathy: You know, I think that you can because actually the woman who introduced me to Kristen is Erin Twamley, who is, I believe she's a lifetime Girl Scout. And actually she's from Brainerd. She lives in. She lives overseas now, but she does a lot of writing for like Department of Energy and like, like children's book writing about energy. She's super interesting and I believe that she's a girl scout for life. So I think that you can

Linda: didn't Kristen say she was too?

Kathy: yes. Yeah, so maybe you could be, I don't know how you become a Girl Scout for life 

Linda: I should know this. We were both leaders. We should know this, but might have to look that up too.

Kathy: Yeah. You know, and now I'm feeling like I could have done more as a leader. 'cause I didn't even think about, did we do any STEM things? I'm trying to think if we did STEM things. I know we went to, we stayed overnight at I don't wanna say Sea World, but Life in Mall of America. We did that one night.

I guess that would be kind of STEM-y. There's fish.

Linda: Yep. I did a STEM thing.

Kathy: What did you

Linda: I, what was this, the nineties, right? So I did a training class on Windows, Microsoft Windows.

Kathy: Oh.

Linda: So I had the girls, and we did, it was just like little keyboarding and little mouse pointing and getting around. And it was a little computer class. I borrowed the East Central Energy Training Lab, which they donated to the Girl Scouts and had them in there and all lined up on the computers and theywere, I don't know, were they.

10 or 11 and taught them some tips and tricks about computing.

Kathy: And that was probably before people like really had computers at their homes all uh, regularly.

Linda: Yeah. Not a lot of them did. And I think there had to be a patch for it. 'cause otherwise I wouldn't have done it. There was some kind of computer learning patch

Kathy: If there's not a patch, we're not doing it

Linda: Yeah. Yeah. That's it.

That's it. We're gotta be a patch. Well, I think that's a requirement, isn't it? In order to be under the Girl Scouts that you have to find the pa you have to do work towards,

Kathy: Towards the patches.

Linda: the patches,

Kathy: don't know, it's been so long since I've been involved in it, but it is a really good, it is a really good organization and I hadn't really thought about it as being a way to bring STEM to girls that I think that's a great, that's a great place to do it, for sure.

Linda: Yeah, it really is. 

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah, so I kind of wanna build a bat house this winter.

I think I'm gonna try and figure that out 'cause I think they're neat. Like I, I think I like bats. Like I, I'm all for bats, being around my house and eating my mosquitoes, that seems like a great idea. So I think it'd be kind of cool.

Linda: And now we have resources that if we get 'em inside our houses, we know where to go.

Kathy: Now just lay still and open our windows and turn off the inside lights and turn on the outside lights. We have them fly past us. Well, actually one of the houses that Joe and I were looking at, 'cause we're trying to figure out like what we're, where we're gonna move when we retire and it said that it had bats in it.

So now I guess if we were to decide to buy that house, Joe, we're just gonna lay still in house

Linda: Open the

Kathy: and let the bad spot fly. Fly over our heads

Linda: I, I almost forgot about that. That is hilarious. I don't think I'd be comfortable, I don't think I'd be comfortable doing that. I mean, I'd want the bats to go outside, obviously, but I think I would leave the house and leave the windows open. I don't wanna lay still anywhere.

Kathy: How do you know if they're, how do you know if they leave though if you're not there, and how do you know how many there are?

Linda: I know. Well, you don't know anyway, right?

Kathy: No, I don't know. That's a, I have no idea. I don't know. But I do think like the stuff we talked about though with like finding a reputable bat person so that you don't have somebody that is like harming the bats. Like I do have a lot more appreciation for bats

Linda: I do too.

Kathy: after talking with her. So.

Linda: Yeah.

Kathy: I feel like she could have like a channel like Bill Nye, the Science guy.

I feel like she has such a personality that she could do something like that.

Linda: Oh, she could, she's so energetic. Another thing, you know, we got talking about the bats and then we started talking about the agave and how important that was and the risk of that plant. Not being there for the bats, and then if it's not for the bats, then the bats aren't there for the plant.

Kathy: yeah. Yeah.

Linda: That was so interesting to me, and I don't think I'll look at a bottle of tequila the same way ever again.

Kathy: Well, my sister lives in San Diego and they have like huge agave plants and they actually had one, when I say out, I think it was out there in June and they had one that they will, I don't know if all agave plants do this, I might have to like look this up and put it into the episode notes, but they will send, they call it I think like a century shoot, so it'll set, send out this like. Stem that flowers, but it went up, I wanna say 50, 60 feet. So it'll like shoot it up and then it'll the, and then the plant will die. And so like, it was probably 40, 50 feet when I was there. And then it kept growing. Like my brother-in-law said it grows, like it grew probably six inches a day. Like it just grows like crazy fast.

I'll shoot this up and then it dies. And I actually knew this 'cause we actually saw these when, like when we wrapped at the Grand Canyon, we saw them and we talked about them. And then I went to my sister's like a few weeks after that or a couple weeks after that. And they had one that was like in

Linda: me more. So this is the plant that does it itself. It shoots this up

Kathy: yeah. And I don't think it's all agaves. I think they're just like certain agaves that are called. I wanna say it's like, I think, well we, at least when we were in the Grand Canyon, we called it I think like a century plant, but it'll like, it's like after like 30 or 40 years of it being alive, it does this one shoot and then it flowers the shoot flowers and then it dies.

But it was like as tall. The shoot was as tall as their palm trees. It was pretty crazy. Yeah.

Linda: That's crazy.

Kathy: It was crazy. So anyway, Kristen was lovely. And yeah I almost feel like we need to have her back to talk more at some point, but we'll see. There's so many pe there's so many women out there to talk to.

Linda: There

Kathy: They do such cool things. I'm like, I would've never thought about being a bat scientist. I mean, I dunno that I would want to be a bat scientist, but like, just to know that that's even something to. Consider is pretty cool,

Linda: It is, and I love your timing of offering this during Halloween, which also is bat week.

Kathy: Exactly, yes. Bat week.

Linda: what a great episode to air during that time. That's

Kathy: people can go out and they build their bat houses so the bats can have nice places to live. And if you're in the southwest plant your agave plants and be kind to bats. They're super good for us. So, yeah, it was really

Linda: was. Here's another thing. I thought. So when she first started talking about surveying these bats at night and all the time she spent at night and, you know, looking at these bats and I, I just picture her in a tent and just kind of sneaking around the woods looking for these plants with a camera.

And that's what I pictured when we first talked to her. And it was a little more sophisticated than that. I mean, they had the cameras with the infrared and, I don't, I think it was infrared that she used with the cameras, and it was it was pretty cool how much they had captured during the night.

I think she got a little more sleep than I thought she was getting.

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, and she did say she was a night owl, so maybe it like, you know, worked out well with her personality to have that for a job. It sounds like she does get more sleep now 'cause she's more, sounds like she's more supervising and stuff.

Linda: Yeah. Than in the field.

Kathy: Yeah, I would not do well if I had to work in the middle of the night.

My brain doesn't function super well.

Linda: I used to be a night owl. I've changed a little bit just because I get up so early. Now I don't know if that's by design or if it's just age or I don't know what it is. I'm not so much a night owl anymore. But the thing about that bat thing at night is, what I wouldn't like is thousands and thousands of bats, and being amongst that many would kind of freak me out.

I'm with you. I like bats. I've liked the, how many bugs they eat, but I don't know that I'd wanna be around that many of 'em.

Kathy: I wasn't a huge fan of them around my head when we were sleeping, when we were in the Grand Canyon. I mean, and it varied like how many would be around, like sometimes there wouldn't be any, but sometimes it would be a decent amount and they might, you know, be within like. What might have felt like a foot of our head.

It was probably closer to like three or four feet, but they felt, they did feel like they got kind of close sometimes. But it was also like really interesting to like hear how like, like, yes, you need to be cautious, but also it's such a small portion, you know, such a small percentage that have rabies that.

And I don't know that there's anything that. Anyone would've, should have done differently in our situation. You know, like, I mean, you are in a canyon and, I mean, rabies is so deadly that if you, I mean, you don't really wanna take a chance with it,

I think that even like once you should show symptoms.

It's like a 99.5% chance of death or something crazy. So I don't know that it even matters if you're remote or not remote, because I don't think that if you start showing symptoms, I think it's too late.

Linda: Yeah, I think you're right.

Kathy: I don't know. Anyway, it was interesting. Liked her a lot.

Linda: Yes.

Kathy: I'd like to, and I like, we didn't get to talk as much about like if then as I had hoped to, and we didn't get to talk as much about the National Geographic Explorer as much as I would've liked.

'cause I think both of those things are pretty interesting. Um.

Linda: Gotta have her back.

Kathy: Well, we could have her back. We could also, like, there's a ton of women on, not a ton, but there's many women that do like, like we, we could, should. I'll look into some other women that are part of the, if then ambassadors. It's a pretty neat program,

Linda: yeah.

Kathy: Well it was good to talk with you

Linda: You do?

Kathy: and, we will talk soon.

Linda: Yes, we will.