BaseballBiz On Deck
BaseballBiz On Deck
Larry Rothschild - Part 1 - World Series 2x winner & Inaugural Mgr of Tampa Bay Devil Rays
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Larry Rothschild - Full Baseball Guy - MLB Manager, Coach, Pitcher & Fan
- Rays History and Florida Baseball Connections
- Meeting at the Tampa Baseball Museum
- Lighting the torch for the Devil Rays
- Florida baseball ties: FSU, Marlins, Reds spring training, Tigers in Lakeland
- Becoming the Devil Rays Manager - (Expansion Team Reality Check)
- Hiring process after the World Series
- Expansion draft preparation (or lack thereof)
- How much control managers really have
- Evolution of managerial authority
- Working Under Lou Piniella
- (Leadership, Intensity and Hall of Fame Worthiness)
- Coaching relationship with Lou
- Tough but empowering leadership style
- Why Lou belongs in the Hall of Fame
- Comparing Piniella and Leyland
- South Side Chicago to Florida State
- (Early Life and Baseball Origins)
- Late physical development
- Transfer in high school
- Playing at Florida State
- Influence of Coach Jack Stallings
- Reds minor league system and development
- A Yankee Fan from Chicago
- (Family, War and Baseball Heritage)
- Father’s WWII service
- Hank Bauer connection
- Growing up a Yankees fan in White Sox territory
- Trading baseball cards
- Coaching the Yankees - (From Fan to Pinstripes)
- First time walking into old Yankee Stadium
- Telling his father about joining the Yankees
- Pitching legends: Mariano Rivera, CC Sabathia
- Transition from traditional baseball to analytics
- Pitching Then vs. Now
- (Throwing vs. Pitching)
- Velocity obsession
- Loss of command culture
- Injury trends and biomechanics
- Weighted balls and development risks
- Velocity displays and young pitchers
- Who Really Calls the Game?
- (Pitch Mix, Catchers and Communication)
- Modern pitching structure (multiple voices)
- Importance of pitcher conviction
- Catcher-pitcher trust necessary
- Analytics vs. instinct
- Complete Games and the Death of the Starter
- (Wins, Incentives and Blake Snell Moment)
- Starter mentality
- Win statistic debate
- Scripted bullpen usage
- The Snell World Series pull
- Jack Morris, Greg Maddux and pitching
- Front Office Influence and Managerial Autonomy
- Joe Maddon’s - blending analytics methods with experience
- Buck Showalter’s - what happens when Buck becomes un-Buckified
- Younger managers and front office control - disregard of history & experience
- The risk of losing baseball personalities
- AI and the Future of Baseball Decisions
- (Analytics Departments and Automation)
- AI potentially replacing analysts
- Injury prediction models
- Copycat business of MLB
Thanks for listening to BaseballBiz On Deck - www.baseballbizondeck.com
You've been listening to Part 1 of the interview with Larry Rothschild, twice a coach with World Series winning teams the Marlins and the Reds plus he was manager of the inaugural Tampa Bay Devil Rays Baseball Team, pitching coach for several MLB teams, including the Atlanta Braves, Florida Marlins, Chicago Cubs, Cincinnati Reds, New York Yankees, and San Diego Padres. Join us again next week for part 2 of Larry and his baseball journey & vision.
Just a reminder, if you enjoyed this show, go ahead like and subscribe to BaseballBiz On Deck. You may also find BaseballBiz on Deck, on YouTube at iHeart Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, and at baseball biz on deck dot com.
Also you can find Mat at M-A-T-G-E-R-M-A-I-N dot B Sky
Part 1 - Larry Rothschild on BaseballBiz On Deck
Mat Germain: [00:00:00] Fantastic.
Mark Corbett: Oh, oh, well that's, that's perfect. That's about how the show starts every week with a little insanity. A little laughter. And welcome everybody. We're very fortunate here today on Baseball Biz on Deck to have Mr. Larry Rothschild and this guy, man, I can't thank you enough, Larry. It was a pleasure meeting you at the Tampa Baseball Museum a few months back, but knowing full well that you were there to light the torch for the first days of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.
And so welcome to the show.
Larry Rothschild: Well, great. It's good to be here and, uh, you know, it's that time of year baseball's getting cranked up, so it's a good time.
Mark Corbett: Yeah. You know, I mean, you've got such a stellar career and I mean, you've been in Florida for a few re different reasons of baseball. I mean, what, obviously the Rays, but then again, the Marlins, unless I forget, FSU you were pitching for mm-hmm.
For the Noles, weren't you? Man? [00:01:00]
Larry Rothschild: Yes. And then, uh, spring training with Cincinnati was in Tampa.
Mark Corbett: Duh. Yeah. So,
Larry Rothschild: and you know, Detroit was Lakeland, so a lot of, yeah, a lot of great memories in Florida.
Mark Corbett: Geez, no, it, it is not the deal down there at Joker Marchant field. I'm gonna get down there a couple times this during spring training.
But let me, I do wanna bring from a Rays perspective, I al, well actually as a looking from baseball biz a business perspective too. I always know that, well, baseball players, their path to getting into the game is, uh, you know, through a lot of hard work and then being taken up to the show and then several years before they actually are able to be a free agent.
Now, a manager does not have something like that in place. That manager doesn't have necessarily a Scott Boras out there working with teams. And, and so like, so as a manager, when you were being, uh, picked by the, uh. By the Tampa Bay [00:02:00] Devil Rays. How, how did those conversations go? Who was, who was talking with who to, to make that happen?
Larry Rothschild: Well, , when I was hired, I had just finished the World Series , with the Marlins, , which it went seven games, 11 innings, the last game. So I, and I got done after the season and got called the next day, uh, to go interview. So it was quick. And then the expansion draft was shortly after that.
So I had no time and they had already put together a lot of things. And, you know, Chuck and I talked about it on the airplane out to the expansion draft. That's basically the time we had. And there were some things that, um huh. I had my opinions on, let's say, uh, but some of it was too late. , So they had already pro formatted a lot of the plans, which I, I wish I could have gotten involved in earlier.
But, , it's just, it's the way things ran right at that time. [00:03:00]
Mark Corbett: Yeah. And, you know, I always, I was wondering about that, if you'd had a chance to, to be able to touch it before then, but, so it sounds much like a lot of managers, if you've been coming onto another team that it's like, here's the goods, we've already got 'em for you, you, you don't necessarily get the chance to, to select that before you sign on with that team.
But
Larry Rothschild: I, I think in today's world, it's, that's just the way it is.
Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm.
Larry Rothschild: If you go back, even if a manager came into a new situation, , he would have control, a lot of control, you know, obviously working with the gm, but , over the players, he wanted there and to , put the, uh, roster together. So worked for him.
Lou Piniella or, uh, Jim Leyland and guys like that, you weren't gonna tell them what roster they needed on the field to win, and that that's really changed in today's game.
Mark Corbett: Yeah,
Mat Germain: . I ask you about that though. Lou Piniella, I mean, you were his pitching coach. Am I right?
Larry Rothschild: Yeah. For
Mat Germain: what was that like? Explain it.
Because we've all [00:04:00] seen how, um, I I guess you could call it opinionated. It can be. So how was it to work under Lou Piniella?
Larry Rothschild: It was, and it was great. I mean, Lou and I had a relationship before, uh, before that we were Cincinnati, and then I went to the Cub. You know, I was at the Cubs when he came to the Cubs, uh, and we won the World Series in 1990 in Cincinnati.
It was my first year coaching in the major leagues, , at a pretty young age., Lou had, you know, I, he gave me a lot of stuff that I did and I learned a lot that year. And, um. It was great. I, he, him and I became very close and still are.
Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm.
Larry Rothschild: Uh, and you know, the, the word on the street a lot is, you know, he was really tough on pitching coaches.
, It wasn't just pitching coaches, you know, he could be tough on anybody, but what he wanted to do was make sure that you knew what you needed to do and you had the confidence to do it no matter what. And he found that [00:05:00] out really quickly. And if you didn't, there wasn't gonna be a place for you. So, , we got along great, you know, you, you, he wanted your opinion.
, And at times you wouldn't think he did, but he always did. And he, he listened and, he ran the team, you know, and that's the way it should be. And everybody knew that. . And really there was a lot of genius to the way he did things. And you know, if you look at him, you just think it's a kind of a brute force out front and will his way into winning.
But it was a lot more than that. Same with Jim Leyland, you know, um, you know, he was one of the, uh, Lou and him, , for me to work for. They were great managers. And Lou should be in the Hall of Fame without a doubt. Yeah,
Mark Corbett: yeah, absolutely.
Larry Rothschild: There. I mean, it's, it's crazy that he is not, and if it goes another, you know, however long if, and it's postmortem, I think that's a tragedy.
And baseball should be ashamed of itself.
Mat Germain: I couldn't agree more. And the reason I ask that is because like I, I feel like when we talk to [00:06:00] managers or I, I, I haven't talked to a huge amount, but it seems to me like more than any other role in baseball, they are people who love to learn from others and they cherish that and they value that.
So speak to us like your, your, your background, right? Because I know a lot of people can jump into the fray and say, okay, well this is what happened in, in Tampa when you were a manager, but how did you get there? And what were your influences like as a kid and then through high school and into college?
Larry Rothschild: Well, um, it was interesting 'cause south side of Chicago, uh, you didn't play a lot of baseball right? During the high school season. And, , I transferred my junior year, , and it was, I, I had skipped third grade, so I was a year ahead of myself and. Even, even if I were in the grade I was supposed to be in, I would've been small.
And, you know, I developed really lately late. So my senior year I grew a lot and ended up pitching that summer and [00:07:00] it just all came together. And I went to Florida State, um, and played for, uh, a coach, Jack Stallings, who was an incredible teacher. Uh, you know, if there's one guy I can draw on that really taught me, uh, as a player, it was Jack.
He was, uh, he was incredible. He was a short and had a booming voice and you could hear him all over the field, , he really was great to me. , And then, you know, I, I ended up signing with the Reds and got into their system at a time when it was as good as in baseball, , their minor league system was really good.
And, uh, signed and went to Billings. Um, and then ended up in Eugene after a couple weeks we won the league there, went to aa., , I went to Instruction League that year and we won the league. And then, uh, I got promoted to aa, which was kind of rare for the Reds. Usually you went step by step in a ball.
And I ended up going to AA my first full [00:08:00] season, um, in Three Rivers Canada, which was great. And you know, the year I had a really good year there. And, , they taught baseball and you did things the right way. A guy named Ron Plaza ran to minor leagues. He was a great, great teacher.
So I was pretty lucky, you know, that was really three out of four years, , growing into baseball. 'cause in high school, I, I wasn't you, I was an afterthought. Really.
Mark Corbett: Hmm.
Larry Rothschild: But I always knew, you know, that I always hoped and believed that it would happen, and it did. And it was a lot of hard work. Um, and it was a lot of rejection.
And I knew in the end that, you know, it was gonna, I don't know why. I had no reason people thought I was crazy, but, , maybe I am. I don't know. But, , it worked out and I was very fortunate to be around the people I was. And then, you know, as a player with the Reds and, , got Rule Five by the Tigers, , ended up playing at the end of two Seasons with Detroit.
You know, Sparky was there [00:09:00] then. And, um, Roger Craig was the pitching coach. And, you know, just a lot of really good experience. A lot of years in, in AAA, you know, after I went to aa, I went to AAA and I got stuck on repeat for a long time in AAA, but, uh, it was all learning and it, it all helped, uh, as I, you know, went into coaching.
Mark Corbett: Wow. You, I wanna take a small little trip back to Chicago for a moment because I know early origins with you. You were a Yankees fan in Chicago. Mm-hmm. How did that come to be?
Larry Rothschild: Well, my dad served in World War II, , and he was in the Navy, but ended up on a transport ship. And my dad was from Germany and left Germany.
He had to leave Germany. He was Jewish. Um, yeah. And so everything was taken from him and, uh, they ended up in Chicago. , And he enlisted right away. He wanted to go fight in Europe, you know, , in Germany. Wow. But being German in those [00:10:00] days, they didn't trust that you weren't, you know, completely in line with the us.
But um, so he ended up going to the Pacific. , And fighting there. , And on the ship was Hank Bauer. , It was Marine, , unit that was on the ship, which he ended up serving with. , Although he had enlisted the Navy, he, he ended up with that unit in the Marines and he became very close with Hank Bauer.
, And Hank taught him about baseball and, and, , he developed a love of baseball and he actually, , would come to the World Series in New York after the war, uh, because Hank would have him here. And, um, you know, he, he came to the world. I, my first glove came from New York. Wow. 'cause he was up here at the World Series and, and brought it back and actually brought two gloves back.
'cause I was ambidextrous and nobody knew what I was. So anyway, that, yeah. So he, you know, I became, he was a Yankee fan because I became a huge Yankee fan and. [00:11:00] In those days, it wasn't real popular on the south side of Chicago.
Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm.
Larry Rothschild: Because the White Sox and the Yankees had a real competitive nature. And, and, uh, so it worked out great for me 'cause I could take all my White Sox cards and trade 'em for Yankee cards, which, and you know, it, we ended up doing okay against the White Sox.
So, um, yeah. It, but it was, you know, I, I mean, I watched the Yankees, I read the box scores, I watched 'em whenever I could and would go to Comiskey Park when they played there and find ways to sneak in and watch games. And, um, so yeah, in those days you could kind of do that. But, , that wouldn't happen today.
Mark Corbett: No. No, it's a little more secure. But you, you know, I think about that though, as you, as a young man, and that years later there you are what is a pitching coach for the Yankees.
Larry Rothschild: Mm-hmm.
Mark Corbett: And I, look, I think, my gosh, I, I admire everything you did as a pitching coach, especially when I look at, at the [00:12:00] folks that you're working with too.
What you got Mariano and Sabathia there, and I mean, as far as pitching and then, um, up looking across the dugout, I guess you'll see, uh, uh, Rodriguez and Jeter. Mm-hmm. And I was like, my gosh man, to be part of that whole cadre of heroes, as far as I'm concerned. That had to be something When you started out as a Yankees fan, as a, as a child.
Larry Rothschild: Well, it, well, the first time I was, , in uniform in the stadium was when we played there, when I was with Tampa.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: And we went and played the Yankees. I hadn't played there with any of the other teams that I was with. And, you know, it was the old stadium and you know, you, you just walk in and it's, it's one of the times in your, your life where you're just like, wow, this is, this is beyond anything.
And my dad, you know, I, I mean, when I took the job, uh, I got him a hat. He, I didn't tell him that I, until I saw him and we had a dinner for him for his birthday, and I [00:13:00] handed him the hat. I said, you know, um, I'm gonna be with the Yankees. And he was, you know, I left the Cubs with a contract and you know, I'm from Chicago, so being home was great for those years in, , Wrigley Field is really special.
Yeah. , Yankee Stadium, the old Yankee Stadium was special, but, , the years I had in Wrigley were maybe the best years I had in baseball.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: Um, but it was special to be able, you know, my dad dreamed of me being in a Yankee uniform and. You know, and I, I always wore hoodies and, you know, I didn't wear the full uniform a lot.
And he used to call and say, would you wear the uniform? Just 'cause he wanted to see me in the uniform. And I would. But, um, you know, it, that was special being in Yankee Stadium and knowing that his devotion to the Yankees and I grew up as a Yankee fan, , that was really special. And then to come to the Yankees, , and witness it firsthand was, was special.
It, a lot of things had changed, , [00:14:00] during the course of my tenure there with the analytical part of the game. And, you know, it, it probably around the time Joe left Joe Girardi and, and even Joe Torre before that, , it started, but it got really progressed like my last two. It was, you know, on steroids, not me, but the analytical program.
Mat Germain: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: So it was crazy.
Mat Germain: So in terms of the, like you, you went through that entire transition essentially, so from the, all the way through the seventies, eighties, and nineties and, and into, like you said, the steroid era really. Mm-hmm. Where there were some pitchers that were found to be doing steroids as well.
But in terms of the actual pitching, like when we're thinking about pitching, there's, there's a ball, there's a grip, there's a motion, there's, so the transition through those periods, what do you think of pitching as a whole and where it stands today in comparison to where it was when you started?
Larry Rothschild: Um, [00:15:00] if I were just shooting from the hip, I'd say it's not pitching anymore.
It's throwing.
Mat Germain: Mm-hmm.
Larry Rothschild: Uh, how hard can you throw the baseball? And the catcher sets up in the middle with the glove right down the middle of the plate, waist high, which I, I was. You know, you just didn't do that.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: Um, and you learn how to hit spots and you know, obviously strike one has always been the most important pitch and all those things, but, um, in today's game it's more of just, you know, a kid that can throw 98 or a hundred is gonna get every chance in the world to pitch where you have a kid throwing 93 and can really pitch, he's gonna get buried.
And I know that firsthand from some, uh, people that I know. And it's a shame, you know, um, you can strike out guys at the same level or higher level and not walk guys as the hard throwing guys and it doesn't matter. You won't get credit for it. And that, I think, you know, the injuries are obviously a big part of [00:16:00] it.
, It used to be they thought that, um, breaking balls caused the Tommy John injuries. And, and then, , I don't know, eight years ago they decided if fast balls were more. A cause for the concern with the Tommy John. And uh, I think that's probably a factor, but I think overthrowing a baseball is a real problem.
And throwing it when you're not ready and you're not developed, if you start these programs, you know where you're throwing, whether it's weighted balls or using, , the weightlifting, I was told when I sign, don't touch a weight, you know? , And I'm not sure that's wrong, , for maintenance I understand it.
But now these guys are bigger and stronger. The muscles aren't big that are getting hurt. Yeah. You know, and it's, you overpower 'em with the other muscles and that's what's gonna happen. And , it's not that natural to throw a baseball the way we do. So the more stress. And the other thing I see, I'll dive [00:17:00] diverse a little bit, but all the injuries in baseball now, um, and I.
Like the biomechanics stuff that, that they do. I think it's problematic because everything a player does is measured now.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: So if you're trying to work on something, it's getting measured and you know, it's getting measured. You can't just, , three quarters and like just repeat stuff and then Okay.
Because it's getting measured whether you're swinging, you know, I think the hamate injuries early in spring, that's partly because of what goes on. If you look in a bating cage today, every, every swing is measured how hard you've hit the ball, how what you're, you know, how, and get the a swing off every time.
Well, , make an appointment with the doctor 'cause you, you're gonna end up there with the orthopedic. , I think that's a big part of it. , The first year that they had the pitch clock was, it was funny to me. 'cause in [00:18:00] spring training they had all these machines, measuring everything.
So a guy would throw a pitch and it would be two minutes where he is looking at it and it's being measured, and then what are we gonna do? And then the season starts and you've gotta let the, you've gotta throw the ball right away and you're doing two different things. I mean, so I, I, I kinda laughed at that, but, there's a time and a place for that.
And it's good to work on stuff in a bullpen, but the last 15 pitches you throw should be kind of a game situation, I really believe. And try to, whatever you're learning, try to incorporate that into what you would do in a game.
Mat Germain: So I had a couple of ideas that I think would work in terms of helping pitchers kind of, um, reset I guess we could call it.
Right. And one of them is what you just spoke of, which is the, the velocity factor. I don't think it should be displayed or measured anywhere in the stadium.
Larry Rothschild: I agree. [00:19:00]
Mat Germain: I think it should be posted after the game if they want. Mm-hmm. It can use it with baseball savant and look back on, but I think it would take away, especially for young players, 'cause I remember Brent Honeywell showing up in spring training with the Rays and blowing out his arm.
Mm-hmm. And I knew because it was the first time he was on the mound, he was throwing as hard as he could and trying to look good in front of everybody and saying, Hey look, I'm arriving
Larry Rothschild: Yep.
Mat Germain: Season. Well
Larry Rothschild: that and couple that with their three guys throwing at a time.
Mat Germain: Yes.
Larry Rothschild: And who knows how hard those guy and who knows what shape they're in.
And then that guy next to you, if you're a young pitcher your first spring and you're seeing that and the pitching coach, everybody's standing there. You may not be ready to, but you're gonna air it out so tho you're exactly right. , I don't know what effect it would have on the fans if you didn't let 'em see, you know, when a guy hits a hundred everybody Wow.
You know, and the orthopedic surgeon's going, oh, okay. I'll sharpen them blades. You know? Um, so, you know, and that's, I know, an over exaggeration, but, um,
Mark Corbett: no, not, probably [00:20:00] not.
Larry Rothschild: So I, my, the first spring that they put the machines in the bullpen during spring training, I told 'em to take 'em out the first in, for the first week.
'cause I knew what we were up against with three guys throwing at a time. And I tried, I had guys so early I had 'em, I tried to make it just individuals, especially guys I knew might be at risk.
Mat Germain: Mm-hmm.
Larry Rothschild: Or guys rehabbing. I'd have 'em come early and throw and that way separate 'em out and not have to, you know, watch three guys try to.
Match each other, but those machines and, and guys coming into spring training early, and they're being measured right up. What are you measuring? Because this guy's not ready for it. So what do you, you know, well, we want to get a background and compare it. What are you comparing it to in the next spring when he starts getting ready again?
I mean, honestly, it, I said we are getting guys hurt if we're gonna do this.
Mat Germain: The only time I really agree with it is when p players that haven't been picked up by a [00:21:00] team are trying to show what they
Larry Rothschild: mm-hmm.
Mat Germain: And then they make a video. That part I get right.
Larry Rothschild: I, I think if you're in full shape and you're ready and you wanna work on, you know, a break and the other pitch that, , the slurve, which they call, I don't know what they call it now, but , unless a pitcher is naturally a lower arm slot, that puts a lot of stress on an elbow.
I mean, you, you can just look at it and see where the elbow is exposed.
Mat Germain: Right.
Larry Rothschild: And that's a pitch that's they're teaching a lot now. Yeah. And the first time I saw it, I was like, I'm just waiting for elbows to start exploding. 'cause it's a dangerous pitch to be thrown.
Mat Germain: What about the splitter? 'cause I, I can remember that being taboo, basically.
Nobody,
Larry Rothschild: yeah. Yeah. No, I, I was one of the first people to throw a splitter. I, um, Bruce Sutter, I watched and watched, and I had been in AAA for a while, and I'm thinking, I need something different. I need to try something different. Mm-hmm. So I, I looked [00:22:00] at his grips and looked at everything and read everything I could.
And I started goofing around with it, and I actually started throwing it. I, I have taught it a lot.
Mat Germain: Mm-hmm.
Larry Rothschild: I don't think, you know, depending on, , obviously if you throw a pitch wrong, you're exposing your elbow. But I don't think the split is any different than, um. Say a, a changeup, you might turn over a little bit.
Right. , You know, and if you release it properly, it should, the stress leaves the elbow. So I, I don't think that's, I think the problem is the torque and the velocity and all the stuff that's being done in between, you know, there's a place for weighted balls where if you're working on deliveries and, but not outside throwing as far as you can throw the, I'll leave the curse words out of this, but, um, you know, it's just, you're fine
Mark Corbett: here.
Larry Rothschild: Yeah. I mean, an individual guys can do what you know, but now they've got, if you're a kid throwing [00:23:00] 92, 93, they want you to throw harder. They bring you down for velocity camp, , so you're doing a couple of things there. You're telling a kid, you know, you're not good enough the way you are, even though you might be the best pitcher in the system as far as pitching.
And you're having a guy try to throw as hard as he can.
Mat Germain: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: All the time. And I, that's an injury waiting to happen and a mechanical failure gonna happen.
Mat Germain: So
Larry Rothschild: I, I knew I just, a quick story. I, a, a friend of mine's son was in the minor leagues, 92 to 94. Really, really good. Didn't ever walk anybody, I mean, could hit, they had to catcher.
And he would call me once in a while and they had to catcher setting up in the middle of the plate. That's not him. I said, you know, you can, you can hit the corners that will the way you command the ball. So, you know, let 'em, he said, they won't move the catcher. I said, good. Just use the [00:24:00] shin guards of your catcher or use the umpire's mask.
You don't need to throw to the glove. I Seaver did that years ago, but you know, so you don't, there's different ways to do it, but. Didn't understand it. You've got a pitching coach now at every level. When I played, you had one going through six teams and you saw him twice a year. Now there's so and so. You can't individualize a program for a kid and go to his strengths and weaknesses.
So you're gonna cookie cutter and say, everybody, we're gonna stand in the middle of the plate and put the ball. I'll say down in the middle. I'm not gonna say what I'm thinking, but, and I, you know, when I see it, I get sick. I can't believe it.
Mat Germain: Yeah. That was gonna lead into my next question, which was, who decides the pitch mix?
Because there's a lot of people like ourselves who are on the outside and never been in a clubhouse, don't know how that relationship goes from the catcher to the pitching coach, to the team philosophy to the pitcher himself. So generally, as, as a player grows, you know, they're, [00:25:00] it's gonna change over time as they adjust, but who decides that?
And, and how, how much input does the pitcher himself get, you know, or when they first show up, especially,
Larry Rothschild: um. It depends on the coach and it depends on the pitcher. , There's three guys doing the pitching, deciding pitch shape, one guy pitch, , program. You know, how do you get hitters out? And then the pitching coach, I don't know, puts it together.
I, I don't really know. Maybe you know, some of the mechanics, but there's somebody doing the mechanics too.
Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm.
Larry Rothschild: So, you know, as a pitching coach, now , you're more of a coordinator right. Than you are really, , and the thing that I, that towards the end that, , I started seeing that a little, and it's one of the reasons I, you know, needed to get outta the game.
, I wanted to be responsible for what went on on the mound, and if it didn't go well, I was responsible for it. Right. And that was fine. And I wanted the players to know where it was coming from. [00:26:00]
Mark Corbett: Hmm.
Larry Rothschild: And I didn't want people going to the players without me knowing about it. 'cause then you're putting out fires all the time.
It was what, , what's this guy trying to tell me? And, , it might not agree with what I'm, , if you sit down in a room and decide what you're gonna do and go out there, and then that's what the player hears from the pitching coach. I have no problem with that.
And the information's great, but too much information, uh, isn't gonna get regurgitated the way you want it to get regurgitated.
Mat Germain: And it kind of leads into one of my main questions about that relationship, because like, I can remember watching Yadier Molina with the, the Cardinals and I, I would imagine that he had more input in terms of what was being called when than somebody who's the first year catcher on a team, or somebody that mm-hmm.
The pedigree that he does, he does. . So when you're looking at the Rays as an example, they've had a, , a revolving rapport when it comes to catching, how are you supposed to build any kind of, you know, rapport [00:27:00] pitch.
Larry Rothschild: I think they do a great job of it, um, because there's a lot of communication through their pitching coach.
And I think he's a guy that he heads it up and he's responsible for it, and there's no other way around that. , Which is great. And it shows, you know, they pitch well. Mm-hmm. And I think the communication is, as in anything, the communication's key and the,, the catcher, usually the catcher, no matter who it is, is gonna take some time to develop a rapport with a pitcher.
'cause , the thing I used to tell pitchers is, and I mean. I think that you're better off throwing a pitch you believe in that might be the wrong pitch than the right pitch, and you don't believe in it. I know the, you're not gonna get good results if you don't, if you throw something that you don't, now I don't even think they think about it, so it's not, well, that was wrong.
That was right. They're just out there, , [00:28:00] doing what is put down, , and, , it might be good because they don't question it anymore, but I, I don't know. I kinda like to have command of the guy I had when I was in AAA. We had a converted third baseman that became a catcher and he ended up being pretty good, but it was really new to him.
It was the first month of the season and I was the closer. And he, he came out the first time he caught me. And, , I had two strikes on a hitter and he said, I, , I kept shaking and. He wouldn't put down a slider and he kept putting, I kept shaking. So he came out to mound, he goes, , you, you, you gotta throw a fastball here.
I said, no, I'm not. I said, I'm throwing a slider. I don't know what you're gonna catch, but you're getting a slider, so put down whatever fingers you want, but I'm just telling you, I'm throwing you slider. And he went back there and put down a fastball and I shook once and went into my windup and threw a slider and struck the guy out.
And after the game I said, [00:29:00] don't ever do that again, because I know what I'm gonna do. I get two strikes on a hitter. I'm not always gonna be right, but I know what I want to do.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: So that, you know, I mean, the other thing I see, which I just think about, you go back a few years and you're in the fifth inning and the pitcher's got a three to one lead, a four to one lead, a two to nothing lead, and.
He gets a guy on base with two outs and you take him out, you would've had a fight on the mound, and now it's just, here's the baseball. And I want that guy to fight me if I'm doing that. You know, I, I mean, I used to tell people when, you know, like a manager would get upset that a, you know, guy was pissed coming out or he showed him up.
You can't show a manager up. But I used to say, you know, I'd rather have that guy than the guy that hands you the ball to get the hell off the mound.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: Um, that's the guy you want on the mound. And so, [00:30:00] you know, there's a trade off and, you know, I'd talk to guys and say, look, I understand you're pissed, but don't ever show the manager up, but stay pissed because I want you to want to finish.
But that's a, that's, there's no such thing as finish anymore. I mean, you know, I look at Guidry the one year when he had the unbelievable year, I think he finished 27 games. Is that all of Major League baseball now? Maybe. I don't think there's 27 in a year. Is there?
Mark Corbett: I I can't believe that. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but no, not the way the game's played today.
Larry Rothschild: No. And you go through, what did Dodgers go through? 45 pitchers or something?
Mark Corbett: Yeah, it was,
Larry Rothschild: I mean, what is this?
Mark Corbett: I don't know, brother. I gotta tell you. When, when I, I go out there, I mean, let, let's face it. It is a moment that will stay with ever Tampa Bay Rays fan forever. Forever. Watching Blake Snell hand the ball over to Cash.
[00:31:00] And, you know, you, you said something earlier about. Snell approached it the way you would hope. He was angry as hell, but he was going to defer to his manager and he wasn't going to badmouth or sa say sour things about him, you know, at, at the press conference, whatever else afterwards. But those, that moment just stood as a, as a step to me if, I mean, there was many others before this, I'm sure, but to me it said this game has changed.
I had to wonder, in my mind, was that phone behind Kevin Cash ringing to say, Hey, you gotta pull this guy, you know, is, is there somebody from the front office? And if that wasn't a direct at that moment to Kevin, was there, there was a philosophy from the front office to, to not let
Larry Rothschild: him run.
Well,
Larry Rothschild: I could tell you almost every team in baseball now, I don't know what happened then if, I think the Rays were at the forefront of some of this, but they give the manager a, a [00:32:00] script to follow during a game.
It's called, you know, different places, it's called different things. But you know, you want this guy to face East Hitter. They don't care if it's a fifth inning. And you know, when, the thing that I heard in my last few years was wins, wins don't matter. And I said, well, you know, they, they're a result of, you know, it's not a result of the pitcher pitching, well, it's a result of a lot of other, and I said, it's really funny how the best pitchers in baseball win the most games.
I mean, that's, isn't that kinda odd, you know, that it's due to circumstances and not, you know, but it's always the best pitchers. Well, now they don't even let 'em do that, but it used to be. But I, I think things changed. And I remember just got kind of feeling sick about it when Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young, and I think he won 11 games.
And that's when I said, you know what? We're headed down the wrong road here.
Mat Germain: Win should be a team stat. In my opinion, they shouldn't even be related to the [00:33:00] pitcher itself anymore. Yeah. School, I, I think it's a team stat. You get the win, you get the win. And I think it, you know, it's kind of silly sometimes the way they calculate it anyway.
You could have a pitcher throw five innings, somebody comes in, does a little bit of work, he gets the win because he happens to be in the, in the right moment at the right time. I think there was a reliever with the expos that had 12 wins one year because of that or something like
Larry Rothschild: that. Mike Marshall.
Mat Germain: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: But pitched every night. Exactly. I mean, he pitched, he pitched every game he pitched, like it was crazy what he did. And then he, I think he went to the Dodgers. Right. Um, but, um, I, I, I was a big fan of wins as a statistic simply for starting pitchers because it was the number one incentive when you're pitching as a starter.
It was. You start a game with a no hitter, shut out. But the last thing you stand on is the win. Get the win. And you look at Jack Morris, [00:34:00] he just knew how to win games. And he knew like there's certain times in a game, and Leyland used to say there were three times in a game. If you win all three battles, you win the game.
If you win two out of three, you usually win one out of three. You might win some zero outta three, you're not gonna win. So, you know, as a mentality with a starting pitcher, I think it's important. You're taking a huge incentive away from a starting not in today's world. You're right, it wouldn't matter, you know, it doesn't matter anymore.
But I would like to think that we can get back to that. But it's gonna have to start in minor leagues. You can't, you can't do it in the major leagues anymore. You've gotta train guys in the minor leagues that look when you go out there. It's 7, 8, 9 innings.
Mat Germain: MLBs figured out a way to incent, uh, add an incentive that attracts teams to start rookies from the beginning of the year.
Larry Rothschild: Mm-hmm.
Mat Germain: Right. Did that was with money and draft picks, et cetera.
Larry Rothschild: Mm-hmm. Right,
Mat Germain: right. They were to give incentives to [00:35:00] pitchers for hitting certain milestones, whether it's pitching six innings, plus a certain number of time you get a certain monetary amount, et cetera, et cetera. I think there would be incentives that they can work into contracts that that could help get us there.
Mm-hmm. But I, I remember as a fan, like watching Pedro Martinez and Roy Halladay, Pedro Martinez, I think had one year he, he did 13 complete games. Uh, Roy Halladay who threw like maybe, or like really low nineties, uh, completed nine games, you know, uh, the majority of the seasons that he played for, for the Blue Jays.
So, I don't understand the concept of why the, the width and the, the strikeout has become such a, a glaring focus for a lot of teams, including the Rays, to be
Larry Rothschild: honest. Mm-hmm.
Mat Germain: And, and so I don't know exactly how we get there, you know, eventually, but I hope we do because, well, right there is something about that, about a pitcher owning that game and being the person that signs off on it at the end of the
Larry Rothschild: day.
Yeah. I, uh, tried to get a, where, [00:36:00] a couple of places where I was to train kids in the minor leagues to pitch innings and not look like I learned how to pitch when I pitch tired, that's when I learned how to pitch. You gotta use your legs, right? You gotta be able to mix pitches, you know, you better throw first pitch strikes.
Yeah. You just have an idea and you learn. And then you also, if you're late in the game, like, you know, early in the game if a guy's on you pretty well and you know, late in that game, Maddox was a master of it.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: I'm not getting beat by the guy that I know is on me. Pretty good. If somebody else can beat me, fine with his case.
They couldn't. In my case, they might, but so it's, you know, it's just the learning of how to do it and you take it away. And now you couldn't bring guys up with that incentive because they haven't experienced it in the mind, they haven't built their arms up to able to do that. Um, you want 'em throw a ball through a wall, maybe they can do that.
Mm-hmm. But, , I just, I, you know, and I think there's [00:37:00] guys that can both throw hard and pitch. Obviously, you know, you got the Skubals of the world, but you've always had those guys, you know. Um, I don't know. I, like, I just, I know the game's changed. I know, you know, you know, the big argument players would always have is, you know, babe Ruth couldn't hit in today's game.
And I was, I would say, you've gotta be kidding me. What he did when he played. You look at the statistics in the league and then look at his statistics.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: And what he did for everything. Mm-hmm. You don't think he could adjust to what's going on today? He might hit better today. Um, you know, but again, you're seeing more pitchers all the time, which is hard on hitters.
, But there's way more information, which could be hard on hitters. I mean, you know, I, I think Gary Sanchez got messed up when he came up. He was a [00:38:00] great hitter. He saw the ball. He, and then all of a sudden it was we're, you know, I, I'm gonna watch how a guy's tipping pitches and he's watching something else instead of what he did naturally.
Mark Corbett: Right.
Larry Rothschild: And the same thing catching, you know, it was, it was frame the ball and framing the ball. He held it like he tried to do that so much. That it really messed him up with what he needed to do instead of just being natural at it. Like it was just such a, um, a manufactured move that he'd Ms.
Ball. 'cause he is thinking about frame. He is not thinking about blocking. So then all of a sudden it was, well he, he can't block, he could block when he came up and he actually, for a young catcher called pretty good games. And it just hit, I think his head exploded and, you know, it's a shame because his talent at the plate was not just your run of the day.
Really good hitter. He [00:39:00] was special hitter, you know, and who knows, I, I may have the wrong take on that, but that's the gut feeling I had. It just, you know, too much information can confuse some guys. Yeah. And you know, guys are trained now to digest information differently you've got great athletes today.
But they don't not necessarily perform like great athletes. They are told what to do all the time. So the athleticism and the freeness of it is different. I mean, Jeter, when he got older, the reason he was still such a great shortstop is that he was in position to catch the ball. He knew where guys would probably hit the ball.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: And he just had a great instinct for it. That's baseball. You know, he knew what the pitcher, you know, he knew what the catcher called. He knew what the pitcher was gonna throw. He knew what the hitter probably was gonna do. Was he in the right place every time? Not the right. But did he ca what he was in the right [00:40:00] place as much as you could put him there, no matter what analytical stuff you did.
Mat Germain: Mm-hmm.
Larry Rothschild: And then, you know, so I don't know. I mean, I guess some of it's good, but the information's great and the sports science is really good. Mm-hmm. But there's a time and a place for everything. It's now. Beyond, a lot of people have been run outta the game that have a lot of knowledge because they're more instinctual and, you know, they may take everything in and, , I got the reputation, you're old school, you don't, I use so much information, I watch so much tape, and I spent hours putting programs together for pitchers and, you know, dissecting hitters when we go into a series and it was like, you know, um, that wasn't the information.
They, you know, they really, and I, I would take the, I just didn't want that information to overpower a guy. And, , when the analytical people started going individually to the pitcher, that's when I said, you know what? [00:41:00] If you wanna interview a guy when you screw up after a game, get the analytical guy in here.
Have you ever seen an interview after a game with an analytical guy?
Mark Corbett: Nope.
Larry Rothschild: And you know, so now they hear this, they're going, well, you're really old school. Not true. The time and the place and the education of it all is important. And the arrogance of some of it, you know, it used to be you're an old school coach and you're arrogant about what you're doing now.
You're no longer there, but they're so arrogant about this stuff that it's off the charts. And I, I, there's nobody that can say anything.
Mark Corbett: , I can't help but think of, uh. Reading Joe Maddon's book and talking about the imposition of the front office coming, you know, even into the locker room and knowing if you're looking at Joe's history, he was already incorporating mm-hmm.
Analytics. Mm-hmm. Long before anybody else was calling it analytics. Mm-hmm. But he also had the sense of saying, you gotta [00:42:00] trust your gut too. Mm-hmm. You gotta take all that experience and knowledge that you have of the game and trust, you know what's going to happen beyond it. You can't just pull out a slide rule for all of it.
You do need to be attentive to those things, but you don't let them drive every moment of the game. And that's, that takes it away.
Larry Rothschild: It's interesting because, you know, as soon as Joe talked about what happened in Anaheim, he can't get another job.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: And you know, it's because look, I know we're both older.
But he has a lot, you know, he had a lot of knowledge and, um, to take that out of the game. Um, it's kind of a shame and, , he was ahead of his time.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: And then all of a sudden he makes a couple of comments and he is behind the times. He is old school and he can't be hired because he can't be controlled to the degree they want to control.
And it's, it shouldn't be about [00:43:00] control. It should be about, you know, sharing the information. And, you know, Buck Showalter the same thing at the Mets. His first year, he was a genius. Second year all this stuff started happening , and he started trying to, and UNB Buck, like trying to be, you know, play that game and it didn't work.
And he ended up getting fired. I know to this day, he really regrets doing that. And if he ever manages again, it won't happen. But, , you're hiring a lot of young managers in the game. I mean, this winter was something and, you know, look, I don't know how they're gonna do, they might be great at what they do, but to take guys with the history of the game out of the game.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: It's just, it's, it's a shame because that is the game. You know, people want to see those people and you know, they wanna see Lou go out and argue. They wanna see n Earl Weaver, they wanna see a Jim Leyland. , Like the, you don't have that, , I even Ozzy Dent, , [00:44:00] he, he was a character and there's like, who's a character in the game anymore?
Mark Corbett: Jeez. Right.
Larry Rothschild: , It's not, look, if you can't do the job, then being a character, doesn't matter. You're gonna be Max Patkin. You're gonna be the clown prince of baseball. But if you're doing a job and you know you're into it, your passion is such and you show it, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world.
I mean, Billy Martin was really, really smart. He, his passion , took him overboard and some other stuff. But
Mat Germain: I will say that every franchise seems to go through their, their moments where they feel they have to go back to that core knowledge in baseball. And the two names that I would bring up are Dusty Baker and Bruce Bochy.
Mm-hmm. Both of whom had sort of like, stepped away for a while and then came back and, and were resurrected and, and really you could tell right away as soon as they showed up, it instilled a confidence in the entire team that didn't exist before they arrived.
Larry Rothschild: So, yeah, let [00:45:00] players play.
Mat Germain: It doesn't happen more often to be honest.
Larry Rothschild: , You've gotten younger mostly front offices. Mm-hmm. Especially around, you've got, most of the analytical people are in their twenties, maybe very early thirties. And then, you know, and I, I laugh because I'm waiting for AI to replace every one of them. Honest to God.
Like, think about it.
Mark Corbett: No. Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: Think about what they do.
Mark Corbett: Yeah.
Larry Rothschild: Like, that's what AI does
Mark Corbett: well, I know computer programmers are disappearing right now. So, yeah. I can see where analytics guys could, could go just as quickly.
Larry Rothschild: I mean, you keep one guy that can, you know, set the program up or do whatever, keep an eye on it, but you don't need, and you don't have to pay 'em health insurance, you don't have, you know, it all goes away and, I, I would bet anything in the next.
2, 3, 4, 5 years. It, it's completely changed
Mat Germain: the day they figure out an AI that can prevent injuries. That's
Larry Rothschild: gonna be, that's interesting because I have, I've talked to a [00:46:00] guy that really knows what he is doing with it and I said, we need to get all the numbers for all the pitchers for the last 10 years from every organization.
Mat Germain: Right.
Larry Rothschild: And try to put together a program that is gonna tell you what has happened. Mm-hmm. , Just eyeballing it, what we talked about earlier, the way practice is done now is different. The game's faster. The, the ball's thrown harder. We put more on, , get your a swing off, throw the fast ball as hard as you can.
, Everything's geared towards that. So you're gonna have injuries. I mean, right. So how do we prevent that? It's the mentality of, , an organization, it's gonna take an organ. Baseball is a copycat business. That's what it is. And it always has been. You know, when somebody does well, you talk to 'em, and then you try to copy it.
The Rays were the forefront of all this, , with the shift and, , the opener. And, there's a few things. And when I was at the Yankees, I used to [00:47:00] kind of, I guess I was kidding our guys, but I'd say, why do we have 500 of these guys? And they've got 10, and they're at the forefront of all this stuff.
Like, why is that?
Mat Germain: We drown each other out when there's too many of them. That's,
Larry Rothschild: , It's interesting because, , it, I, I think there's, the game's gonna have to go through a whole, you're gonna have to start in a minor. It's gonna take an organization that says, look, gimme three years, we'll develop pitching, but here's how we're gonna do it.
Take that, take all the machines. Use them for the knowledge in between. If you wanna work on a delivery thing, point it out. But one thing, and let's work on that. And at the end we're gonna throw the ball the way we can.