Mixing business with purpose: Purpl Discounts and Open Road Access

This month, we have two guests. First up is Georgina Coleman, founder of Purpl Discounts, a discount platform created by disabled people for disabled people. Frustrated that disabled consumers were often overlooked despite facing higher living costs, Georgina set out to negotiate exclusive savings on everyday essentials, entertainment and more. She shares the story behind launching the business, the challenges of building it from scratch, and how her own experiences of MS and ADHD have shaped its direction.

Georgina’s passion for disability and financial inequality drives her ambition to use the success of Purpl to fund practical support for disabled people who cannot afford the help they need. From proving eligibility and charging a membership fee to balancing social purpose with commercial reality, this is a thought-provoking discussion about entrepreneurship, community and finding new ways to make life a little fairer.

Later in the show, we speak with David Dew-Veal, founder of ORA (Open Road Access), about his mission to make travel and independence easier for disabled people. Drawing on family experiences, David explains how his wheelchair-accessible vehicle rental service offers flexible transport options, whether for a day, a month or longer.

We explore the challenges faced by people who acquire disabilities later in life, and the role that technology and innovation could play in transforming mobility in the years ahead. It’s an insightful discussion about practical solutions, social impact and what it will take to (hopefully) create a world where everyone can move more freely and independently.

Links

Purpl Discount 

Georgina Colman LinkedIn

ORA Open Road Access 

David Dew Veal LinkedIn

Transcript

Opening And Saving Money Fairly

Announcer 0:10

This is the Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@ gmail.com or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Simon 0:31

Welcome to The Way We Roll with me, Simon Minty. And me, Phil Friend. Do you want to save some money? If so, this is the episode for you. Our guest is Georgina Coleman, who created the savings platform Purple Discounts that without any in 2024 to tackle the Purple Pound gap and provide dedicated support.

Phil 0:53

Purple is the UK's first discount platform built by disabled people for disabled people. The aim is to make saving money fairer, simpler, and more accessible with hand-picked deals, discounts, and advice.

Simon 1:06

Welcome, Georgina. It's lovely to see you. Now, if I went on your website today, what do you think is the best discount?

Georgina 1:13

Well, we've just launched a trial with Tesco for £5 off, which is fantastic. It's the first time that they've done a discount outside of their own kind of popcard discounts. So it's a fantastic offer for anyone who's got a disability or a long-term health condition to get five pounds off either click and click, five pound off deliveries, or five pound off whoosh, which I actually tried out the other day. It's very, very good.

Simon 1:38

Super is Whoosh like a speedy delivery type thing.

Georgina 1:41

Like literally, it was half an hour, I reckon, from when I ordered it to my door, which is fantastic.

Phil 1:47

That is amazing. If I ordered one item like a bar of chocolate, and I got would I have to do it? I just thought I'd try, you know.

Georgina 2:04

Your chocolate bar could become very expensive.

Phil 2:06

Yes, it could, couldn't it? Gold-plated chocolate bar.

Simon 2:09

But the five is worth having. That's like uh a reasonable discount, so I can see. And that's great that you've managed to negotiate with them to do that.

Georgina 2:15

Yes, we start talking to them at the end of last year, and they're really keen to help the community, which is what it's all about, really. Making it life a bit more affordable for many of our community who struggle.

Phil 2:27

I suppose what what strikes me, Georgian? I'm not a big I don't do a lot of shopping and sign myself. I certainly do shop online though, for things like clothes and other things. But what strikes me about what you've done is there are a lot of supermarket deals, aren't there? I mean, a lot of people do order their food and shopping online, and it's unusual to see a discount for disabled people in that area. Is or am I right about that?

Georgina 2:50

Well, there was no discounts for disabled people at all when I started Purple. That's the whole reason I started it. I was out shopping with my cousin, and we were in a shop where they were promoting the student discount, and I said to my cousin, Oh, well, my son gets a student discount. Why don't I get a disabled discount? Because actually, my son probably had more disposable cash when he was a student than many people within the disabled community have. And it just seemed really unfair to me that there was no discounts for us we'd be forgotten about. Everyone else can get a discount. And you know, Blue Light is fantastic when it started. It the reason for it was to help the nurses and the frontline staff, but anyone who works within the NHS can get access to those discounts, and now teachers as well, and I think a lot of other services. And some of those people have very good salaries and very good pensions and very good benefits, and many of our community don't, you know, they struggle to even find a job that would take them on with the adjustments they require. And some people cannot work. So we have far more financial challenges within the disabled community than I would say any other community of people.

Simon 4:00

And when did that obviously with your son and observing this, when did that the moment, the sort of click where you went, okay, this is a sort of business idea or there's a something more here?

Georgina 4:10

So I think it was December. When did I incorporate the company? I think it was December 2022. And I came home and I said to my husband, I've got this idea, and he went, another idea, because I'm always having ideas, which I now know because I've been diagnosed with ADHD, host that is that's how my brain works. And he actually went, That's actually a really good idea because it's a proven model because there's uni days and student discounts, blue light, so there's all these other discounts, and there's this big market for our community where there's 16 million people in the UK who have a disability, yet nothing for us, and it just seemed like a no-brainer, really.

Simon 4:54

But how did you get oh sorry No, no, no, go on, Son.

Phil 4:57

Go on.

Simon 4:57

I was gonna say, but how did you change that from uh an idea to I'm setting up a website, I'm gonna negotiate with businesses, uh that's a bigger jump.

Georgina 5:04

Well, me and my husband had so he's worked in the media world for years and years, and we had like a side business that he kind of developed with a friend when my walking first went downhill, and I realized that I was struggling working where I was working, and he was have he had this idea of a friend, and they built this business. So I started working for that

Why Purple Discounts Exists

Georgina 5:25

full-time from home, which was a competition website. Enter free competitions every day, and you could win prizes. And part of that meant I was meeting clients and talking to people online, reaching out to companies and saying, Could we do a competition with you? And so I'd already started having some of those connections with brands, and some of the first brands we worked with were the brands that I had worked with when we were doing competitions, so um Rotary Watches, Somerset Toiletry Company, and I've also been someone who I guess I grew up with my dad taking me to the markets and selling on the markets, so I'd always had that ability to talk to anyone, and I think that's not a skill that everyone has. And I think because of my ADHD now, I've always been quite like driven, and I don't take no for an answer. I always think there's a way to everything. So I'll just pick up the phone or message anyone. I don't care whether it's a CEO or someone lower, you know, down the ranks of a company. It makes ever to me, everyone's a person, and I don't have it.

Phil 6:25

You kind of you it's a very interesting story, isn't it? Because you had the skills there, you were using them in a different way. You had your ADHD, which you didn't know you had at that point, but that kind of gave you the energy and the drive and the commitment to do stuff. And then along comes MS, I guess, which is the other issue that you're trying to manage. What really strikes me, Georgina, is how you built this business when you've got two quite serious impairments that in some ways you'd think would mitigate against you doing that. Did you use it as part of your experience to build the business? I mean, how did it interact with what you were trying to do?

Georgina 7:05

I think you know, I was diagnosed with MS when my son was born, so and he's now 23, so I've had it a long time. My walking started going downhill, I would say, when I got to about 40. So I'd had a number of years before that, and never really, you know, it's not because I didn't care about anyone being disabled, it just wasn't in my bubble, I guess. And once I became this more physically disabled, it really opened my eyes to the world around me. And I think, you know, when I speak to a lot of brands and I tell them about the cost of a wheelchair or the the things that we have to pay for, they're like, oh, they don't realise. I think a lot of people just I know online you see a lot of abuse, but take those people aside. There's a lot of people who just don't understand because they're not connected to anyone who's disabled, it hasn't hit their family, they just don't understand the costs that come to us. So I think the fact that I am disabled is really important for the community because they know that I'm living the same challenges that they have, and I get it. And yes, I may not have, you know, I know I'm very lucky. If I need a wheelchair, I can afford to pay for it. But I think that's unfair. I think everyone should have access to the things that make their life better. So I have that understanding because I am disabled and I can see both sides. It, you know, some people can afford things, but other people can't, and that's not right because there's things that I have that help my disability that other people can't get access to. Yeah, because we live in a world where we don't have enough money for that.

Phil 8:40

What's interesting too, then, and you tell me if I'm right, that obviously running your own business enables you to manage your MS. You can do things when you can do them and not am I right about that? So have you kind of structured the business in some ways to accommodate that?

Georgina 8:54

I'm probably really bad because I work way too much. Because I really care about making purple successful, because my long-term vision is to have a foundation so I can give grants to people. I want to have I have this vision about having like a hub center where I say to my physiotherapist, lady, one day I'm going to employ you and you're just gonna give everyone physio for free. You'll give me mine, and then you'll give everyone else it. Because ultimately, people who and my chiropractors are saying they want to just help people, but they obviously need to be paid. And if they were paid and could just help people who couldn't afford it all day long, they'd be really, really happy. And so I've envisaged that kind of foundation.

Simon 9:31

Yeah, we're wishing we'll come back to your ambition because there's some uh I'm sure there's a lot to unpack, but uh Phil noticed it. You already do make some sort of grants. I mean, what what was that about?

Georgina 9:42

So and also I didn't answer the rest of your question. So I work too long. Sorry. No, no, no, that's my fault. That's the ADHD brain. I work too long, I sit at my desk too much, and I probably don't look after my health as much as I should, but I'm doing it because I am so passionate about making purple successful. But being at home means I can go to the toilet when I need to because my bladder's weak. I can do my exercise first thing in the morning. If I do want to take time off, I can. It's so and I can work from anywhere if I need to. So when we went to see my stepson in Australia, I could do work when I was out there, so I have that flexibility. The Grant Foundation, the Grant and Fund was because we were giving money to charity every quarter because it felt important to me that we had to give back, even though we're still a startup. But we don't see where that money goes, and it's not for a charity a thousand pounds here or there isn't a lot of money. But and I was thinking, well, why are we giving it to a charity when we could actually be giving it to our members and we could buy someone a wheelchair or we could pay for I don't know, some therapy for someone, whatever it might be. And it just seemed like an like actually, I just had a light bulb moment with my PT lady actually doing my exercise one morning. I went, actually, why don't I just give the money directly to the community? So we actually get the money from brands. So it it's kind of circular. The more people that come to Purple and join Purple, the more members we have, the more brands will spend on advertising through us, which means we have more money to put in the pot for the fund. So it then helps the members who are in purple.

Phil 11:21

So have you allocated uh, I mean, when Simon and I ran our business together, we had a similar, I don't think we were quite as developed as you, to be fair, but we did every year make some kind of donation to a good cause or a charity of our choosing. Um but we allocated a certain amount for that, you know, when we looked at our net gross profit, all that stuff. You're doing the same. Have you allocated a budget? So once it's gone, it's gone, kind of thing.

Georgina 11:48

So we have we're giving 20% of what we get from that extra money that brands pay for promotional. So and at the moment we don't always get very much spent, but that will grow as we grow in size and members' size. You know, compared to blue light, we are tiny, but blue light will make a lot of money from brands spending on promotion. So I think as we grow, there'll be more money that will go into that pot from that. So 20% are small at the moment, but it will grow. And we're also looking at other ways that we can might have sponsorship with brands for the fund each quarter. So we're we're thinking that through. And we still work with charities. We have a like an affiliate programme with them so they can push members our way and we can give them a kickback. So there are things that we can do as well, still with the charities, but it just seemed I'd rather be able to give someone something and see it and tangible, which we can do with a member if we're giving money to them. So we can buy it for them, it's tangible, the brands can see it. It's a nice kind of story as well.

Simon 12:51

Although I feel for you, because presumably you've added a layer of um you've got to assess it and who's gonna get it, and that might be some no's, and that's a tough, tough place to be, I imagine.

Georgina 13:00

I've got a couple of people, um, and I'm terrible, I've got memory like a sieve with names, but I have two people who've come on the panel with me who will help to and we've got we've done it with um like equations, so we'll short lists based on the criteria.

Simon 13:15

Right.

Georgina 13:16

And we'll narrow it down and hopefully we also stopped applications at 250 because it was well, we started up thinking we'd only have a hundred because we're a tiny team. We can't spend hours going through thousands of applications, but they filled up within like literally a day.

Phil 13:33

So it shows you, doesn't it, how much need there is out there.

Georgina 13:36

Exactly, exactly.

Phil 13:38

So yeah, it's and well, I I think it's uh I'm for a startup, that's pretty remarkable. That you know, most startups, and I remember when we were, you know, you're scratching around behind the sofa for cash, you know, you're doing and it's uh it's remarkable that you're able to do this, and and direct giving you know to the individuals concerned is a is a pretty novel way of going about it. Well done, you I say great idea.

Georgina 14:03

I guess because I am part of the community, I'm doing it for all the right reasons. Obviously, I had to get investors to start the business. So obviously, money, profit at some point is obviously important, but everyone who

Grants Fund And Community Payback

Georgina 14:15

everyone who invested knew the vision and what we wanted to achieve, and I think they all want to be involved in something that's doing good, so they see they they they understand that, and it's community first always.

Simon 14:30

So we've got a double-headed question for you. Um, and there's far too much niceness going on, so we need to play hard. Um, it's it's it's a paid subscription, and um, how do you convince people that it is worth them paying?

Phil 14:44

I'm not a member, so come on.

Simon 14:46

And then convince me the follow-up, which I'm happy to come back to if you if you don't get it, which is you you have to give evidence and show that you have a disability in however form. Is there pushback on that as well?

Georgina 14:57

So when we first launched the paid membership, we did get some unhappy comments. We gave everyone who was a member up to that point free membership for a year, which has just come to uh a circle because we launched the membership fee.

Phil 15:13

I've missed that then, have I? So I've missed that.

Georgina 15:15

To me, that was important. We had to give, you know, you can't just slap a membership fee on people who have been with us from day one and signed up early. We have to have a fee. We, you know, the world we live in where it's the affiliate world is not as simple as it sounds. Tracking issues, people don't people use private browsers, people use VPNs, we don't get paid properly. So we wouldn't survive if we didn't have a membership fee. That's the end of it, basically.

Phil 15:44

How much is it then, Joe?

Georgina 15:46

So last year when we started, we started it as £6.99 for the first year. We've just changed our model so that we've got a monthly fee. So someone can sign up for one month for two pounds, or they can sign up for a year for £12.

Simon 16:01

I've got you, right?

Georgina 16:02

Because some people say they can't afford to pay for a year, then come on board and do it for a month, and you'll save more than that yearly fee anyway, in a month.

Simon 16:12

If you use the long as you do the old Martin Lewis thing where people aren't just buying it for the sake of it, they're buying stuff that they want they need anyway, and then they're getting they should get their money back pretty rapidly.

Georgina 16:22

Exactly. And with 10% off Morrison's every food shop that's delivered or click and clicked, or five pounds off your Tesco.

Simon 16:28

Yeah, yeah.

Georgina 16:29

We've got savings on cinema tickets, theatre tickets, Merlin days out. We've got money off uh Dun Elm, Holland and Barrett clothing companies. We've just launched our in-store at the end of last year on our app. So there's a digital membership card, and we've got Dun Elm, Holland and Barrett, Halford's, Yours Clothing. We've got two mobility companies, Miller Care and Eden Mobility, Doc Martin's, that are all in store, and we're going to be building more in store as we grow.

Phil 17:02

That that all sounds brilliant. And I I'm not a member, but you're beginning to get to me. I think uh I mean my wife does all of our food shopping. Presume if I went with her with my card, then we would get yeah.

Georgina 17:13

Not in store for food yet. I keep trying.

Phil 17:16

Okay, so it's not in store for food yet.

Georgina 17:18

I keep pushing and I say to you know, not everyone can use online. So, you know, being able to go to a shop for some people who can't use technology for whatever reason or visually visual impairments, you know. Yes. Also, for some people getting out to the supermarket is their only trip out of the house.

Phil 17:35

But what's the process then? Because we're we're getting near to the end of our time now. What what's the process for me to become a member? What do I have to do?

Georgina 17:43

Okay, so if you can explain that, you know, I know we haven't got the forms and things, but so you sign up, create an account, and then you upload your disability evidence. And we have to do that, otherwise the brands wouldn't work for us because we've got to have unfortunately, you know, there are people out there who will try it on and try and get the answer we're trying to get. So we have to be strict. It's a whole long list, though. You can do a blue badge, a disability letter, it can be a disabled bus pass, it can be an access card, a CA card, even an NHS diagnosis letter, and we even have

Membership Fees And Proof Checks

Georgina 18:20

a GP form. If you don't have any of those, and your GP can just sign two things to say that you qualify under the Equality Act for having a disability.

Phil 18:29

So as any and I can do this online now. All online. Just go online.

Georgina 18:34

Um we if you struggle, then we just help you. If it fails, some things will go up automatically and you'll get instant access if you take the picture in the right way and it's got the right information on. If it fails, it comes through to us and then we'll send you information as to why it's failed. And you can sign up on behalf of yourself or as a carer or a parent. So if you've got a child that's disabled, they can you can sign up in your name as a parent and then upload their document.

Phil 19:00

So that's Could I do it on on a paper? So if I can't use a computer, would I be able to send you the forms and the pictures and things like that?

Georgina 19:07

So you could send it. Um we don't have no one's ever asked us actually before. I guess we don't have a central because we don't we're all remote.

Simon 19:18

Yes.

Georgina 19:18

Have an office as such, but it's I think if you have the GP form, the GP can would email it to us anyway. And the thing is, if you can't use online, you're not going to use our site anyway because it is all on an app and because of the way the codes have to be put around. So you know, people ask us for a card, and it's like, well, we can't do a card because that can't have a code on.

Phil 19:40

And also we can't put that's interesting, isn't it? I I suppose it's part of the digital economy now, isn't it? I know when I've worked for various organizations in my past, the there was a quite a large cohort who would only get paper things because they couldn't use online forms and stuff, but anyway, uh but that's pretty clear. So I've just got to fill the forms in, get the the evidence together, send it to you, and then how long? What two or three days and I'm in or you straight away?

Georgina 20:10

Upload the picture correctly and it's got all the right information, and you can access it straight away. Once you've uploaded that and it's been approved, you just pay, choose whether you want annual or monthly. And most of our members on average say £15 per code usage. So you can, you know, we had a a five-star review I got this morning from someone saying that they saved like I can't remember what how much, but over £200, I think. Since last night I did a a live TikTok with someone, and there was someone on that call who said they'd save loads through purple.

Simon 20:40

So and you alluded to it earlier on, um, which was uh the future. I mean, uh, three years, five years. You've you've given us a bit about grants, foundations, so on. What about the purple discount part?

Georgina 20:54

I just hope purple discount grows bigger and has becomes as big as blue light, and we get there's so many ideas of things that I want to do that I think will be great for the community. I want us to be like that hub. Everyone who becomes disabled, because most of us don't aren't born disabled, the vast majority become disabled later in life. I want us to be that one place that you can go to to find everything. This the signposting, the information. We've got a members Facebook group, which is lovely, and that we check every email to make sure they are a member before we let them in. So there's a real community vibe to purple, and we get lovely comments from people saying that forgetting the discounts, it's they just don't feel lonely because there's they can talk to anyone within the group, and everyone understands it because we're all part of that same community, so we all have the same challenges. We may have differences in those challenges, but we all have you know the challenges of some kind because of our disability.

Phil 21:51

Well, I I I'm sold. I'm I'm sold, I'm sold.

Simon 21:57

There used to be a BBC ouch, really good hub. I mean, I don't know of an online chat place. Maybe I'm a bit out of touch, but that's lovely if that can be developed. I mean, I think what you're doing is great in itself. But the idea that there's a sort of community that the Google can do is great.

Georgina 22:11

Yeah, no, it it's lovely. And you know, for me, the it's I know I met you Simon at the award ceremony last year and we actually just won a startup for good up for good award or start UK startups. Those things are lovely, but the thing that really matters is the fact that we're saving people money and we're making a genuine difference to their lives, and that's the most important thing for me.

Phil 22:36

Well, thank you so much. That's been really helpful. And I mean I mean it. I will I will join. I think uh my wife and I are gonna go and spend, spend, spend.

Simon 22:46

Exactly. Make sure his photo is accurate though, Jordina.

Phil 22:51

I've got a 23-year-old photo of me, which I'll stick in it. It's been great talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us. And um, we'll make sure that all the details of your what you're doing are on our website and all that kind of thing so people can find you.

Georgina 23:03

Thank you very much.

Phil 23:04

Great. Thank you very much.

Georgina 23:06

Lovely to see you both.

Simon 23:08

Thank you, Jordina.

Announcer 23:09

This is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

ORA Vision For Accessible Travel

Simon 23:13

Welcome back to The Way We Roll, and we are delighted. Our next guest is David Dew ville, who well, I need to put cards on the table. I have spent time with David at the Royal Ascot, which isn't bad. I've been to Chester, and we've even had a meeting in a Greasy Spoon cafe in London, which was great. And I've actually used the service that we're just about to describe. Anyway, we're talking to David today about finding out about uh what drives him and what drives Aura, Open Road Access, the company that he founded.

Phil 23:46

I like ORA already because they provide uh wheelchair accessible vehicles, and as some of you know, I use one. Um they do adapted car hire and flexible WAV wheelchair accessible vehicles, WAV lease options for long-term mobility across the UK. Their ambition is to create a world where everyone can move freely and independently, with accessibility as the cornerstone of a better tomorrow. So, David, let's kick off by saying, or asking rather, how's that ambition going to conquer the world?

David 24:18

Uh well, I suppose firstly just thank thanks for having me. It's uh yeah, and thank thanks for uh the the kind of generous introduction there. I think you you really captured it, and you're right, Simon. We've spent a lot of uh yeah, a lot of time, a good amount of time together um talking about things, and you've been a kind of great um sounding board and support for us. So so yeah, just to say thank you in front of all of your your audience um and and everyone else. So thank you for that. So yeah, Phil, your your question, that's a that's a big question, isn't it? And I know you you just said we've got 25 minutes, so I'll I'll try and keep it relatively brief. I think the the the beauty of a kind of setting a vision um is it's something that is is almost insurmountable, you know, it's almost unconquerable, um, and it's something to aim towards and work towards. I'm not doing this on a whim. This is this this has been a kind of uh God, the risk of sounding a little bit bit grandiose, but there's an element of a kind of life's work to this. I kind of growing up, um, the motability scheme and our wow that we had as a family was a real bright spot for us in what at points was a pretty challenging environment due to my kind of father's degenerative condition and the impact that had on the family. So the kind of the value and the importance of transport, um, the challenges around accessibility and accessible transport is something that is kind of quite in my core, you know. Um and then I started because of this, I started working at Motability actually when I graduated from university. And that's when that's when the idea of aura was born. Um so I appreciate it, it might not sound like I'm answering your question because I'm I'm going back and talking about my personal history, but to look at how how it's going against our vision of a world where people can move freely and independently, back from it being a spark of an idea I had, I don't know, over a decade ago on the on the grad scheme at Motability, to where we are now with thousands of customers, um exceptional feedback, um, a brilliant team around the business, and so much excitement and so much progress. That that gives me a huge amount of comfort in in how we are getting on towards the vision, um, albeit that vision is is kind of intentionally grand and intentionally almost unachievable, but but we're definitely we're definitely making progress towards it, and having that ambition is helpful to drive us, and it's definitely helpful to drive me.

Simon 27:01

I'm I'm happy occasionally to be wrong, and I think I am wrong because I remember we first met way back in the day on a Zoom call like this, and the the the the business case I was worried about. I thought, is there going to be enough people to allow you to make a profit as well as have that social purpose? Um, and I think you're you're managing that. I mean, how is that? The the social purpose is clear. Is it starting to feel like a a good business? You said the customers and so on, you're starting to go, okay, this is a strong business as well.

David 27:33

Yeah, absolutely. And I think um, again, I I don't want to go down the cliche startup manual book of find the customer, prove the demand, and then prove the business model. But there's been an element of that, you know, and and we've had the feedback and we've had the customers. The last so so there was a year where ORA was a pilot effectively, um, and that was a couple of years ago, and that is where we proved there was a need, and we proved there was customers. I think the last year, we it was founded as a standalone um real business in its own right in Christmas Eve 2024, actually. Um, so um, yeah, only noticed that when I looked on company's house quite recently. But the last year, proving the business model has been key, and we've seen significant growth, we've seen a significant willingness to pay for our service in a way that people are comfortable with, and the feedback we get is that it is reasonably priced, where we are able to operate it viably as a business. You know, um it's it's year one on that journey. So there's there's there's a huge amount more to do in terms of the growth, how we operate, uh, really refining it as a as a as a business, as a machine, you know, taking it from a startup to an actual business, a model that you can put something in and expect a reasonable outcome on the other side of it. But yeah, we're making progress.

Phil 29:02

Can we then focus? That's helpful, thank you, David,

How ORA Hire Works In Practice

Phil 29:05

because I I didn't know the the the way the organization came about and so on. But here I am, powered wheelchair user. I need a car. I mean, how does this work? How do I, as a punter, give you my money? And what do you give me for the money I give you? So I'm a powered wheelchair user, I want to drive from I'm going to Yorkshire for two weeks, say.

David 29:30

There's a there's a there's a few parts to that. So, firstly, in full transparency, we do not um operate drive-from vehicles currently.

Phil 29:38

Okay, so I'd be a passenger.

David 29:39

Yeah, it's passenger wow currently because of the the kind of uh complexities around drive from. Okay, fine. Okay. Um, and would know, and that's part of what we're focusing on, is the awareness of the service. Um, either give us a call or go through our website, and um we have a exceptional customer service team with a that there's a bit of an alchemy to this, right? Because wheelchair users come in different shapes and sizes, and there's you there. And then the vehicles themselves, there's there's a a myriad of different different kinds of configurations to it. Um, and what what the team, one of the things the team are very good at is matching those two things up to make sure there's the right vehicle for the customer. So that would be determined uh based on a conversation or well, it could be over email or or or WhatsApp. Um, and your vehicle would be booked, you'd pay for it depending on kind of how long you were having it for, um, and then it would be delivered to the location that you needed it from. You'd use it for the two weeks, and then it would be picked up from the location uh that it was delivered, delivered to as well, or a different location actually. It would be picked up two weeks later.

Phil 31:04

So it is like in some ways like a proper just rental scheme. I I can rent whatever. Uh uh just for the audience's sake, then. So, all right, you don't do drive-froms, but I could also, if I can transfer into the driver's seat with push-pull hand controls, I could have that kind of vehicle. That would be a spec that I could have.

David 31:24

Absolutely.

Phil 31:25

Yeah, okay. So that's cool. So it for some disabled people that's what they want to do. Um I'm I I could I could probably do it too if I could transfer. So, okay, so it's door to door, it's a hire for a period of time. Could that be a day or could it be a month? I mean, it's pretty open. It's it's open. Open road is what you call yourself. So yeah, exactly.

David 31:45

Any any anywhere from a day to a year.

Phil 31:48

Um, right, okay.

David 31:50

Um so so the the flexibility, flexibility is such a key part of this because um I know you you shared that you have a drive-from vehicle yourself, and um I would imagine that there's the kind of decision around that was you you kind of want to use it, you need to use it enough to kind of justify having it sat on your drive effectively. Yeah, yeah. And and to be fair, that's exactly we didn't growing up, it wasn't a drive from, it was a passenger wire, but that was the same for us. It made sense to own a vehicle on our driveway. But actually, what we have seen, what I've seen a huge amount from through kind of my my career and life, I suppose, is that there is also a hugely variable nature to disability um or to life, you know, and and of course to disability as well. It could be uh people that are visiting the UK um on holidays. So we're the only um uh company that can reliably drop a vehicle to an airport for somebody flying into the UK and then flying out. Um, we do a lot of work in the in the rehab sector as well. So when people are um going through a rehabilitation journey to either determine if they want to own a vehicle permanently or actually if they only need it for a few months or so. Um so and we, for example, was speaking to someone yesterday, a customer in London, who who was saying that the transport in London, the public transport, is pretty accessible. It's not perfect, but it's pretty accessible. However, if they're wanting to go on trips, as you said, go to the lake district or something like that, the vehicle is really, really useful. So the flexibility is at really at the core of the problem we're solving here and the need for that flexibility.

Phil 33:40

I guess too, David, it's it's fair to say, is it, and you tell me, there will be large numbers of people who, for whatever reason, can't be part of the motability scheme. They don't qualify or they want to keep their money or whatever it is, they just don't. Um Do you see yourselves as a kind of alternative to that? I know that there's a difference, it's not a three-year lease or a five-year lease or something like that. But do you see yourself as a kind of organization that's offering people who can't use the motability scheme for whatever reason can get the same kind of service from RI? Is that is that a fair thing to say?

David 34:17

Absolutely.

Phil 34:18

Yeah, okay.

David 34:19

Absolutely. And I think it that that is the kind of origin story of of the business that I that I kind of went when reflected on. Um, in that I think you'll find well, it's difficult to say. I I I am up there with the biggest fans of motability and what it does because of the huge personal impact it's had on me and my family. And it's because of that I have seen and I've done huge amounts of research on it in terms of the there are a large number of people that aren't eligible for motability in the first instance. If you become, as you'll know, but I'll I'll I'll kind of say it um for the avoidance of doubt, if you become disabled after the age of 64, 65, um, then you can't qualify for the allowance to go on the motability scheme, for example. And another really good example is um actually if people when when people may become disabled, it could be um because of an accident or going going through the rehabilitation journey I mentioned. There's a process to apply for the motability scheme, but the the need is immediate and it's in some cases most acute because there are point hospital appointments and rehab appointments. So yeah, I think we we are um intentionally complementary to to motability.

Phil 35:40

Right, right.

David 35:42

Yeah.

Simon 35:44

Um I was then excited, I I have a lived experience of the Aura scheme having used it last weekend, and um, as you say, your team spoke to me. I'd had a proper call, we have a chat through, I had to find out research about my dad's wheelchair, the one he was going to use, and the joy of it was the car was delivered, and we all went out for the day in it. And as it turned out, the vehicle we got was slightly larger than we expected. So I put my scooter in the back, and all six of us went out in the one vehicle, um, and had a really lovely day, and then the car was picked up a couple of days later. My dad is currently in a care home, and this is the second time we've taken him out, and it that upsets me in itself, but it was a joy of a thing to do, and also once my dad was in the car, he was talking, he was recognising everywhere we were. It it it's it's perfect for that. In our case, it was a short-term usage, but it also became a joyful day out. It it was a really like a fun thing to do.

Phil 36:43

Um you don't have any of the hassles either, do you, of you know, cleaning it and servicing it and doing all that stuff. You know, it's just there when you want it and it's not when you don't, you know.

Simon 36:55

Um the only bit we did had was you had to find a driver, and my sister is literally nervous. I can't drive because my dwarf is and we haven't got adaptations on it. So what about your dad?

Phil 37:03

Why didn't he drive it? What's the matter with him?

Simon 37:06

You've got quite a thing, a lot of things matter with him.

Phil 37:10

I I just I know Simon's dad, and I can just see him itching to get behind the wheel. You know, that'd be something that he's past that now, sadly. But yeah. But it served a really good purpose, and clearly, um, I mean, how do you see it growing and developing? I mean, are you going to offer different services or are you just going to build on this as a yeah?

David 37:31

Um, a question I'm always asking myself and the team. Um and it it's it's the the the the decision that you've just laid out, really, is there's a there's a route to just continue growing it, you know, as it there are there are um the the the the stats slightly vary with with how you look at it, but there are 1.2 million wheelchair users. That's a generally accepted figure, 1.2 million wheelchair users in the UK. Um and a proportion of those, you mentioned motability are being supported incredibly well by motability. There's there's uh around 100,000, I think just under 100,000 WAVs and adapted vehicles on the Motability scheme. Um so if you use that as a proxy for wheelchair users, you know. But so there's a there's a there's a huge number of wheelchairs users in the UK. Um, so actually, the thanks so much for that feedback, Simon. And that that is the feedback we we we get overwhelmingly, and that that just makes us all even more passionate to get the message out there and continue to to grow the service and provide it. But we do also, as you pointed out,

From Day Trips To System Change

David 38:40

Phil, we get asked about different product services, uh could we include wheelchairs for people? We get asked a lot about um accessible camper vans, um, all sorts of other questions uh around accessibility as well, in particular people that are newly disabled and trying to try to navigate the the systems and and everything around that. So there's a lot, there's a lot um there. Um, but we are trying to contain our excitement and keep our focus at the same time within it. Uh just one final point is around the tech side of things, um, and the the strides we've taken in in our investment in technology and our focus on technology and using um AI and AI tools to massively expand our reach and our ability to serve our customers is is is a really key focus of ours. You know, I mean I've been talking about transport accessibility for a long time. When I left Motability, I went to KPMG and was consulting on it. The Motability Foundation was a big client of mine. Actually, my client there now works for Aura with us, but we we did a huge amount of work around transport accessibility, the transport accessibility gap. Why is it so big? Why is transports generally speaking so poorly accessible? And lots of reasons for it. But a conclusion I all we always come back to is that using technology, using the technology to solve some of these barriers, the complexities around matching people with the right vehicles, you know, um, being able to scale a model in a way where you keep your costs low so you can pass those those costs, the cost savings and the pricing on to customers to make it more reliable. So long answer, but tech technology is at the core of it, that's for sure.

Simon 40:36

You you you teeed us up for a question that Phil, uh I'm gonna borrow it from you, Phil. That you as Aura have been publicly calling for reform on powered mobility regulations, on taxi licensing. And uh the question is, does running aura make you want to change the system, or does wanting to change the system make you start Aura?

David 40:57

I might have to take that one away, Simon.

Simon 40:59

That's a good I had to concentrate as I asked.

Phil 41:03

I wish I'd asked it now.

David 41:04

That is a good question. Can I say both? Right. Can I say but I suppose there's a we are not kind of um uh I don't see our job as aura as kind of deep advocacy and deep campaigning. You know, there are people that are incredible at doing that, um, and and probably better placed, well undoubtedly better placed than us to do that. What we do have is thousands of customers, uh, thousands of thousands of customers who are providing us evidence, providing us insights on some of the barriers. And technology has been a barrier, but you're right, policy and regulations is is can be a barrier. And if we can take the insights from our from our customers who are so generous, so generous with with telling us some of the challenges and the issues and and and present those to the institutions, to the systems, to government to support some of that change and decision making, then yeah, very, very happy to do that.

Phil 42:10

I suppose I uh like Simon, I think Simon's story about his party uh trip with his dad and family and so on just makes me have a personal story of my own, which I wanna ask you about, which and it links to the question of uh taxis and you know regulation and stuff. I live in a rural area and at the moment driving is crucial. If I can't drive, I can't go anywhere. We have no buses. And the taxi firms that are near us by and large are all saloon cars. So I can't be transported in one of those. If I could be supported in one of the the normal taxis, i.e. a wheelchair accessible taxi, um, it wouldn't be available during school time because they're all doing school runs. All the cabs are booked for school special needs schools and stuff like that. So here I am, my wife's uh as uh I'm I'm getting older, my wife is getting older, neither of us can drive. There is a huge issue here now developing for much older people who are losing the ability to drive. So I've gone through motability, I've then used you, and now I can't drive. Is there a route through, do you think, whereby on-demand services maybe it's going to be automatic automotive, you know, where driverless cars. I mean, maybe that's the the answer to my own question, but uh you talk about AI, you talk about technology. Where are you then, do you think, on the driverless car market? Because for some WAV users, that would be the solution, wouldn't it? I can't drive the vehicle myself, but I could be a passenger in a driverless vehicle. We've only got two minutes, by the way.

David 43:49

I I've been it it it my last uh gig when I was at Mojibology Operations was uh being part of a presentation to the group board on the future of technology. In the future of autonomy. This was this was way back when, so previous books. Yes. Yes. Um, and it was when autonomy was going to change the world tomorrow, you know. Um and this was this is 10 years ago. And I don't know if you've seen the kind of trough of dis disillusionment, the hype curve. And and I've probably been a bit disillusioned with with it after such well, you can probably see my enthusiasm and my passion, you know. I I was I had it all on that. But I left the office uh yesterday and I saw a Waymo, Google's autonomous car company, driving down the road, scanning the road. So I uh where are we with autonomy? It feels like we're coming out, we've got over the hype, we're coming out of the disillusion, and we're into reality and practicality. But you're so right, it could be game-changing for accessibility. And and uh one of uh our director of policy at Aura, Katherine Maris, um, is is contributing to the discussion around within government around how do we make sure that the development is accessible, accessibility consider considerations are put in the outset rather than kind of a bolt-on.

Simon 45:13

Absolutely, absolutely, and that Waymo, which I've seen around London, they're not accessible. And so it it it it's uh and I don't know if they'll make an accessible if we made all London black taxis driverless, which that's probably a whole union thing, I don't want to get involved in. But the point being, whatever those the standard car is, is it going to be accessible to all people? It took us ages to get black cabs accessible. You don't want to have to do that again.

Phil 45:38

Well, I I think that might be one of the ways we have to go, but sadly we're running out of time, aren't we, Simon? So it's um yeah, just scratching the surface is typical.

Simon 45:52

Yeah, well, yeah, we'll check in, see how you go. Um, thank you, David. Thank you for making the time. And both I I like I'm a big fan of business and social purpose when we get it together. Uh I'm a big fan of that. And that's a real difficult balance, but it sounds like you're you're cracking it and more power to you and the team.

Phil 46:12

Anyway, thank you so much, David. That's been and I wish you well. I it sounds really exciting, and the future could be very, very exciting too, couldn't it? No question.

David 46:21

Well, yeah, thanks so much for for for um the invite and your um yeah, your challenging and insightful questions today. I I'm probably gonna be pinging you an email afterwards with some reflections that you prompted me to have. So thank you.

Announcer 46:35

This is the way we roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Hosts Debrief And Listener Corner

Simon 46:39

Uh should we do most recent first, David and ORA? What are you thinking? What am I thinking?

Phil 46:46

Actually, I I thought, I mean David's obviously David's passion commitment for this and his it goes back to as it so often does, does it not? You know, a personal story linked to his dad and everything. Um, but what he's doing uh could be game-changing for an awful lot of people, I think. No question about that. And I must admit, I've not really knew much about the service until you told me about it. Obviously, I use motability, so I don't have a particular need, but I can, as I as we talk about in the interview with him, there's going to come a time where I can't drive, and that option might well be something I'd look at. But for those people that don't have an opportunity to use motability for whatever reason, this could be their answer to you know making those important trips, journeys to the hospital, whatever it is, you know, holidays, all of it. Nice guy.

Simon 47:38

Let me get it, it's very new. It's a new organization. So yeah, they are they're doing the rounds, tweaking the model, working out what the customer is. Uh the bit I like about David, he's he's uh he's a management consultant, he's uh he's deep in the proper language, all the stuff they use, all of that stuff, and he's got this social purpose as well. So he sort of flip-flops all the way through. We've got to make sure it's the right thing, but how do we maximize uh and I've sat with him, but I do remember I met with him once and he said we've had um I'm making these numbers up 60% uh I think it was like four times uh growth in the last three months. And I said, which is great, but what was what was it in the first place? As in having one customer for one month, and then for the next month is four times, but so it is that real deep dive. Um, and I do think it's growing, and I think the that original tension, it we is people like you, but it is a whole bundle of other people, whether it's people uh visiting the country, whether it's uh people getting out of care homes, all these sort of short-term temporary users, and it's a great example, someone who becomes disabled very quickly or temporarily. You need it now.

Phil 48:53

You don't want to go through all the bureaucracies that you do have to go through to get the motability schemes type thing. The other thing that struck me is overall is that it is actually just like Hertz or Enterprise on one level, it's a just an ordinary service but specialising for people that have different mobility needs and can't use easily use an ordinary saloon car or something. So great. I you know, it should explode, shouldn't it? It should really take off.

Simon 49:20

Um, if we go back the other social purpose and running the business, um Georgina Coleman from Purple Discounts, what do you think we're on there?

Phil 49:31

Well, again, Georgina was again a bit like David, you know, it's his novel, different, new. Um, first time saw a gap in the market, went for it. Her skills plus her disability kind of came together nicely and fired her up and off she went, you know. And it's a remark, a bit like David's thing. It's remote because they've not been around long, have they? And this kind of enthusiasm and passion for doing something. Um the real kicker for me was the grants and uh her ambition to have a foundation. It isn't just about obviously they want to make a living from it, of course they do. But the idea that you can give some grants to people off the back of what you're doing, that for me was very unusual, really. Really unusual. And a start-up, I mean, come on, you know, they're giving money away already.

Simon 50:20

I wonder if that's and we're I'm being very naughty here because I don't know Georgina well enough. It's that classic bit she said, 23 years being a disabled person, she's going through that process all the way through. She has uh physical therapy, and she's like, Why aren't more people having I had this with my dad when Salt, the speech and language therapist, when they did their work, fabulous. And then they say we can't do anymore now, we've run out, and you're like, What do I do now? Am I supposed to pay for this or does my dad not have it? And so she's recognizing that when that service stops, people still bend it's the it's the the dream that the NHS will be able to provide all of that care all the time, and we know it can't, it just doesn't. We we don't put enough in to do it, so she's finding another way. I I we didn't get to it. This it's back to these numbers, and I I don't want to be a cynic, but I get a little bit there's 16 million, she quoted, 16 million disabled people. Do you think there are 16 million people in the UK that get pip, uh have a blue badge, could get their doctor to say, yes, you are sufficiently in verticomas disabled to then qualify for this? When people throw the we've heard 20 million babies, and I'm like, yeah, that could be 20 million people who've got something, but have they got something enough in verticomas again, speech marks, to say you now qualify for this?

Phil 51:49

I don't know. It's a good point. I mean, you and I have been cynical since the 1990s about the way we count disabled people. I can't remember. Well, you and I started together, my figure was 6.7 million. When you joined, it was 6.9, but then it went to something else.

Simon 52:04

Part of me says it doesn't matter the numbers because Georgina and David are showing there is enough demand to make this work. It's me being a little bit pedantic going, let's be ever so careful about throwing out massive numbers.

Phil 52:18

The other strand through Georgina was about fairness, wasn't it? And you get all these discounts for all these things, but disabled people are kind of left out. And I think some of what she's about is right, she's charging the windmills good for her. I mean, more the merrier.

Simon 52:32

I'm thinking more about the business case, the argument, the purple pound, all that stuff, which I've always been hesitant of.

Phil 52:40

Uh, and now I'm like, well, we can think of three organizations that are bucking that trend and showing the clothing designs from Victoria, Aura, of course, and Georgina doing Purple Pound. But not Purple Pound, sorry, no, wash your mouth out with soap fill. Not purple pound. Okay, we have got a bumper listener's corner.

Simon 53:00

So the first one, which is what I call a back-handed compliment, was Sarah Brown, my PA, saying that last podcast you did, I listened to the whole, I listened all the way to the end.

Phil 53:12

When does she get fired? This woman, what is going on that she doesn't listen to all your podcasts? I love Sarah. Sarah's brilliant. Really good.

Simon 53:19

Well done, Sarah. I mean, the the good thing is she won't have listened to that.

Phil 53:26

When I edit, I'll put this at the very beginning.

Simon 53:31

Uh we also had an email from uh former colleague uh Ian Goswell, didn't we?

Phil 53:37

I was very moved by that. It was very kind of him, actually. Uh he too, it turned out, had had all sorts of things going on in his life and had listened to our podcasts and found it to be helpful and reassuring, or I don't know. It was a very nice email, wasn't it? Very moving, actually.

Simon 53:58

I think um he is retired and he said, I listened to a few podcasts, I love yours because I know you both, so it's like hanging out in front in a room with you. Uh, but he also said you made me go away and do more research. And um he obviously thought Nancy Dore, Dr. Nancy Dore was great, but he said it spurred him on to do other things. So I think when we get a random email from someone who's uh what's the word, driven to write just on the back of the show. That's really nice.

Phil 54:25

No, I agree. So those are those are very welcome, very nice. It's nice to know that at least two people. Any others, one of them is your PA.

Simon 54:33

No, I can't think of any others. Were there any others? Okay, let's stop, shall we? Um

Next Guest Teaser And Goodbye

Simon 54:40

I think it's been a cracking show, really happy with it. Just to give you a heads up, listener, if you have got this part. The next show, our guest is Sir Charlie Mayfield. If you don't know uh Sir Charlie, he was asked by the government to look into the disability employment gap. A bit more sophisticated than that, but essentially he spent a year looking at why disabled people with long-term health conditions were not getting employment. Then we're gonna have an interview with him, which should be done.

Phil 55:06

And I think that's uh really good that he's taking the time out to come and talk to us actually, because he's on he's on the milk train, he's going around everything talking about the research and studies he's made. He's a real expert, so I'm look really looking forward to talking to him and um finding out what he thinks needs to be done to close that gap. So yeah, it should be a really good listen. Um but yeah, okay. So before we meet next, I would have gone on a little cruise. Portugal, Spain, a little bit of sunshine. Thank you very much.

Simon 55:36

Yeah, lovely. I'll uh you've just mentioned the World Cup finalists as well, Portugal, Spain.

Phil 55:43

I heard that England might do quite well. Come on. Anyway, so lovely to see you, Simon. I hope uh all is well and we'll speak together very soon.

Simon 55:54

Thank you very much for listening if you got to this point. Thanks for listening.

Announcer 55:58

This is the way we roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@ gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.