Ep 07: How to order sake and other tips from Satomi Dosseur

Satomi Dosseur is a sake professional and educator, a founder of Enshu Limited, which runs a  great and very interesting sake specialist course (Kikisake-shi) in London, which I took a few years ago. Satomi can talk hours about sake and is very good at encouraging people to try it and enjoy.

Born and raised in Tokyo, Satomi grew up with a deep understanding and love of Japan’s exceptional culture. She was taught by her Japanese parents to appreciate and love the diverse uniqueness of Japan’s way of life.

With certification from the SSI, and completion of the Japan Sake Brewers Association’s technical Sake making course, Satomi continues to be recognised as a leading Kikisake-shi and Shochu Kikisake-shi professional.

Don't forget, Sugidama Podcast now has a sponsor, London Sake, an excellent online sake store. London Sake has one of the widest selections of premium and craft sake available online today. They deliver across the UK and Europe, and with over 100 sake from 25 breweries, there really is something for everyone.

Using simple online tasting notes and sensible, affordable food pairings they help you find the perfect sake without any of the fuss. Listeners of the podcast can get a 10% discount Listen to the episode to get the magical code! London Sake: making sake simple.

Episode's Content:

• How to order sake
• Sake and food
• Sake as digestive
• Sake tips
• Sake of the episode: Nishinoseki Cube Honjozo Genshu

Kampai!
Sake mentioned:
Nishinoseki Cube Honjozo Genshu
Kayashima Sake Brewery
London Sake

Enshu Limited (Kikisake-shi)

Music used:
Wirklich Wichtig (CB 27) by Checkie Brown https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Checkie_Brown_1005/hey/Wirklich_Wichtig_CB_27

Just Arround the World (Kielokaz ID 362) by KieLoKaz
 https://freemusicarchive.org/music/KieLoKaz/Free_Ganymed/Just_Arround_the_World_Kielokaz_ID_362

Licence: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/

Vocal: Svetlana 

Transcript

Episode 07: How to order sake and other tips from Satomi Dosseur

0:21

Greeting

Hey, everyone! Welcome to episode number 7 of Sugidama Podcast, the podcast about Japanese sake, the drink that brings together amazing people. And today you guys are here for a treat. But before that, a quick word from our sponsor, London Sake, a very good online sake store, which is so relevant given the lockdown not only in the UK but across the whole of Europe.

"London Sake has one of the widest selections of premium and craft sake available online today. They deliver across the UK and Europe, and with over 100 sake from 25 breweries, there really is something for everyone. Using simple online tasting notes and sensible, affordable food pairings they help you find the perfect sake without any of the fuss. Listeners of the podcast can get a 10% discount by using the code: SUGIDAMA (all caps) during checkout. London Sake: making sake simple."

So while restaurants and bars are closed and your nearest physical sake shop is probably tens of miles, probably a hundred miles away, London Sake is a great way to buy sake. Go to londonsake.com and find something nice to treat yourself during this lockdown.

I am recording this intro during Guy Fawkes Night. So there might be some banging but don’t worry, it’s just fireworks outside.

Again, I would like to ask you to take a few minutes and if you use an Apple device, please leave a review. I promise to read it out next time. If you don’t use Apple, then you can leave a review on Stitcher or in the comments section on my website, sugidama.co.uk, in the post with release notes for this episode or for any of the previous episodes. 

Please, share this podcast on social media, WhatsApp, Telegram, Line, WeChat, Snapchat and any other chat! Tell your friends, relatives, co-workers about the podcast. Spread the word of sake everywhere.

So now about this treat. Today we are going to take a break from me talking all the way and have the first episode of a series of interviews with amazing people from the world of sake. And my first guest is Satomi Dosseur, sake specialist and educator, founder of Enshu Limited, where I did my sake specialist course, Kikisake-shi, taught by her and Oliver, with whom I will talk on this series as well. 

When I asked Satomi, how I should introduce her, she said: Just mention how much I can talk about sake and that I am good at making people drink sake. And it’s true. If you want to know more about sake, she’s the person to go to. Keep an eye on the events section on my website, sugidama.co.uk, as she will be doing an online course about sake soon. OK, let go to the interview!

Satomi’s Sake Story

3:45

Alex: Hello, Satomi how are you?

3:46

Satomi: Hi, I’m good. How are you?

3:48

Alex: Yeah, I’m alright. Yeah, it’s very nice to see you. Thanks a lot for agreeing to do the interview.

3:56

Satomi: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Very exciting.

4:00

Alex: How was your life in general? Are you okay?

4:04

Satomi: Yes, I'm keeping safe. Trying to keep busy. Yeah.

4:09

Alex: Okay. So probably will move to the questions. In this episode, I just want to give people some kind of tips. Because let's say people come to the restaurant, a Japanese restaurant in this case because unfortunately, sake is still more prevalent in Japanese restaurants. And the good thing about you know, these chain restaurants, I don't know, McDonald's and things like that. The good thing is about them, why they were so popular because people knew exactly what they get. But when they come to a Japanese restaurant, they might be not sure about the food. And they look at the drink menu and see these strange names and they say okay, I'll have a beer. Instead of having sake. So I was just want to talk about that. But before that, why is sake How did you get into sake? And what is your story?

5:16

Satomi: Well, it's gonna be a long story. Basically, I got a job at a Japanese restaurant in a hotel called Park Royal Tokyo in Shinjuku. The hotel was the location for the shooting of the Lost in Translation movie. Some people might know about that movie, and then they might cry "Oh, that hotel!". So basically, I got a job there and my department was a Japanese restaurant. So obviously, they were serving a lot of sake. And my supervisor told me “You have to understand and you have to be able to drink sake, to be able to recommend to the guests.” 

And that time I could drink any kind of alcohol but sake. And I said, "Please, please, no. I cannot drink sake." And she's waiting for me to have a taste. So I didn't have a choice, you know. I couldn't refuse it. So I had a sip. And that was just a completely different taste of sake that I have tasted before. It was just virtually a spark in my head. "What is this? This is amazing." And she said “This is this kind of sake”, and so on. And I thought: "That is crazy. What I've been drinking in the past?". You know, it tasted virtually like pure alcohol. And I really, really didn't like anything about sake. But at that moment, I thought I want to learn more. 

And I want to taste more different things. And luckily the restaurant where I used to work in that hotel had a monthly sake menu. So every month, we were changing the menu, but the sake we were serving was all selective, all quite difficult to get products. So I was really lucky to taste those very rare styles of sake. And then I studied for and got a certificate and went to lots of bars and restaurants to taste sake. It's kind of how I started.

7:50

Alex: It's quite interesting, because it's very similar to a lot of stories of people, not from Japan who had a very bad experience with sake before. And I remember I was talking to a friend of mine. He's Canadian, and I said that I'm writing a blog about sake. And he said: "Oh, sake, it's awful. I don't like sake. I tried it once in Canada and it was awful." And I said: "You should try proper sake, you definitely tried something not very good, or probably not even sake." Because in some restaurants, they give you some sort of stuff, which is not really sake. Some kind of alcohol. And they heat it up and say: "Oh, yeah, it's sake".

8:34

Satomi: Exactly.

Life of a sake professional

8:37

Alex: Okay, so now you've got your education company running a Kikisake-shi course, which I did, and which was very exciting. I really enjoyed the experience. And you also do a lot of stuff around sake as well.

8:58

Satomi: Yeah. So I do quite a few events and organise sake for corporate events as well. And some seminars, and I am a consultant for the restaurants just for sake, not any other stuff. And then training and all that sorts of things which I really enjoy. Yeah, it’s good.

9:24

Alex: But how things are at the moment because obviously at the moment, it's a completely different story. So do you still got some kind of events?

9:35

Satomi: Unfortunately all the corporate events have been cancelled. All sake talks at a few galleries or museums that I was supposed to be doing, that all is cancelled as well. But there's a cooking school called Sozai Cooking School. They do quite a lot of online cooking classes and they invited me for doing some online sake lessons. So that, and I'm still working in the restaurant two days a week recommending sake to the guests. So those two things are happening at the moment. But all the rest is gone.

10:25

Alex: Well, hopefully, things will get better, at least probably after Christmas. We don't know but... 

Trying sake for the first time

10:39

Alex: Moving to the restaurant, and it's the topic of this interview. So when people come to the restaurant, and they've never tried sake before, and they look at the menu, so what is your advice? What should they look at? And what should they make a note of, to make a choice?

11:05

Satomi: It's always a bit tricky isn't it? So many words, and terms, that doesn't really make sense for the people who don't know anything about sake. And I would suggest if there is any sommelier, or if the staff who knows about sake, they should ask for advice. Something like: “I want to try sake. Could you recommend something not too strong?” It could be cold or hot, whatever they feel safe and comfortable to try. Otherwise, many people in the past said to me that sake newbies should try daiginjo style, which is the top grade, top classification of sake. It is really fruity and aromatic but quite pricey.

For the people who are trying sake for the first time to go for that is, you know, they might be a bit hesitant. And they might feel that they don't want to waste money if they don't like it. So it's really difficult. But I would probably suggest something mid-range, mid-price. I know it's not always a price. But that might be a good indicator for something to try for the first time.

12:29

Alex: For example, if you work at a restaurant as a sommelier, and people ask you some recommendations do you ask them any questions about their other preferences just trying to match the sake with what they like in other drinks?

12:48

Satomi: Absolutely. So I usually get a question like, “Oh, what is daiginjo? What is junmai, honjozo, which is a classification?” So many people confuse it with a region where the sake comes from. But I just tell them that it’s a classification, and usually don't really talk much about it. Most people want to have a choice of like a temperature or the choice of the taste, some prefer more savoury and others like more fruity. And it depends on what kind of food they are having. So I guide them and give a few options, like a different price range or different styles or things like that.

13:38

Alex: And for example, in your opinion, what is the best questions they should ask a sommelier if they just want to get what they really like?

13:49

Satomi: Maybe they can mention “I am having this kind of food”. And “I like to have cold sake or warm sake”. Just be able to give me some advice. That's, I think, the most simple question and if that somebody or staff knows about sake and food, they can just guide through everything and then recommend a few options.

14:16

Alex: Okay. 

Just to remind you guys, that Sugidama Podcast is now sponsored by London Sake, an excellent online sake shop with a very good selection of over 100 sake from 25 breweries. They have excellent tasting notes and food pairing suggestions for each sake, which will help you to choose the perfect sake without any fuss. Listeners of the podcast can get a 10% discount by using the code: SUGIDAMA (all caps) during checkout. London Sake: making sake simple." 

Sake and food pairing

14:58

Alex: So what is your general guide of food pairing with sake? Do you have like Oh, if you've got this kind of food you should have this style of sake? Do you have this kind of recommendation that you usually tell your customers?

15:17

Satomi: Well, it's really difficult. Sometimes I have sake and instantly I come up with some food. It's a bit like a psychic power. I don't know if it's my thing but it doesn’t always work. And so I usually rather try when the restaurant is not opened. And I try this sake with tempura, that sake with some different flavours. But most of the time I would go for some savoury style sake if the person wants to have sushi, that often quite works really, really well with that and a combination of soy sauce and vinegared rice. And then something lighter, fresher sake then I would go for something light flavoured dish. So it's usually quite balanced with the lighter sake with a lighter flavour dish or richer, savoury sake with something more rich style food. Like a steak or yakitori with lots of quite sticky sweet soy sauce.

16:42

Alex: I know that in the States, for example, sushi is very popular with nigori. And I think that's because people like this contrast of a sweeter sake (because nigori is sweeter generally) and sushi are salty. It's quite a popular combination in sake bars. I'm not sure if it's true for London. And I wonder what kind of combinations are popular in London?

17:16

Satomi: I know that's what this means, but I don't think it's that popular compared to the US. And nigori is still probably a bit more a new thing for the people who ever tried sake. But on the other hand, so many people who never tried sake, or they don't like regular sake, they try nigori and go like ‘Oh my god, this is amazing.’ So, absolutely, it depends on personal preferences. But I don't think that it's there yet.

17:58

Alex: I think the good thing about nigori is that the name is very easy to remember compared to, say, junmai daiginjo.

18:08

Satomi: Yes

18:08

Alex: Or like honjozo, which is very, very Japanese. But nigori sounds very international.

18:16

Satomi: Yeah.

How to drink sake

18:17

Alex: Do you that there is a saying in Japanese I know. Something like ‘When rice is brought to the table sake is taking off the table’. Is it true? Or it's just a myth?

18:33

Satomi: Yeah, it's a kind of unspoken gesture meaning ‘Okay, you know, that night is over.’ And it’s any carbs like noodles or rice. Not sushi, always rice or noodles. When we started to think ‘Oh I'm getting full. But before we go, let's have a bowl of rice with something or bowl of noodles.’ And that means…

19:07

Alex: It’s getting to the end?

19:09

Satomi: Yeah, it's getting to the end. Because if you have those carbs at the beginning, while really carry on drinking and eating it fills you up. I'm sure you visit a small izakaya in Japan. They usually give you small dishes, like tapas or some fried dishes. That's how you carry on a long night of drinking.

19:41

Alex: Yeah. Is it sake always drunk with food? Or are there some kind of styles of sake you can drink on its own?

19:51

Satomi: I'm sure many people drink on their own something like especially fresh light style. And then If you have a savoury or rich, more flavourful, full-body style of sake it makes you feel like you want to eat something like that. I love Guinness. And when I drink IPA or other beers they make me feel like ‘Oh I am refreshed. Nice”. So I can drink it on its own. But when I have a Guinness, I feel like I need something to eat. 

It’s the same feeling that I think sake gives you as well. So it can be just small things like little seeds or nibbles. I quite like to lick the salt while I'm drinking sake. It's a sign of a drinker (laughing). Oh, you know, in Japan it’s much easier to get freshly grated wasabi. I really like having a little scoop of fresh wasabi and drinking sake. It's really nice but it's quite difficult here.

21:09

Alex: Oh yeah.

21:10

Satomi: Unless you if you buy fresh wasabi from Japan,

21:14

Alex: There is a farm now. I saw somebody mentioned it on Instagram.

Ending meal with sake

21:29

Alex: Do you have any suggestion for ending the meal with sake, which is more like a digestive?

21:42

Satomi: Yeah. So there are a few options in this case. You can have dessert sake, which is usually sweet. It’s a sake where the fruit was steeped in the sake with the sugar. So it can be plum sake, yuzu, citrus sake, a bit like a limoncello, but much lighter, less alcohol and less sugar. So it's nice and refreshing. Or there are so many others like pear sake, loads and loads of different styles. As well as aged sake as well… Or kijoshu, which is usually quite sweet. Beautiful sake.

22:40

Alex: Kijoshu is it the sake when you add sake during the brewing?

22:47

Satomi: Yes, brewing. Instead of adding water, they add sake. Kijoshu is really beautiful and sweet. So if you feel like having something as digestive or with a dessert or cheese, it's really, really nice to have.

23:11

Alex: Okay. Thanks a lot.

Satomi’s sake tip

23:19

Alex: Do we have any sake tips for the listeners who have either never tried sake before or tried it a couple of times and want to explore it further? What would be your tip for them?

23:36

Satomi:  Well, I think that to start is to have sake. Or, you know, nowadays, you can't really go out and enjoy sake as much as you used to. So there are quite a lot of platforms where you can learn about sake online. You can order online. There are so many companies that have online sake stores. It is really, really good value, I think. 

And so if you have a bottle of sake organised, a meal doesn't matter. Even Indian or pasta, pizza, Japanese sushi, whatever. Then have a little bit at a cold temperature but try to keep some of the sake. And then just warm it up and see the difference. Sometimes sake changes so much. I'm sure you know. That will be quite interesting. 

So if people say ‘How do you warm up?’ you can just bain-marie in hot water. You don't need to cook them. Just warm it up. And then put the bottle or container with the sake into that hot water just bathing them. It's quite interesting things to start trying because you know, food pairings, you can do it. And so it just is a different temperature a little bit opens up a different door.

25:14

Alex: Yeah, it's the amazing thing about sake that you can experiment with different temperatures, which you can't do with other drinks. Well, a lot of other drinks you just drink it at a certain temperature and that's it. With sake you can go from, I don't know, from very cool to very hot. I remember Philip Harper, he suggested that his sake should be drunk at 70 degrees Celsius. Pretty hot. It's just like tea.

25:46

Satomi: It is, yes. Yeah.

25:49

Alex: But apparently it was very good. I tried his tokubetsu junmai sake at 65 degrees. And it was amazing. I tried his Tokubetsu Junmai

26:00

Satomi: Oh, yes.

26:03

Alex: It’s very good. It’s an amazing thing about it.

Sakeware

26:05

Alex: Do you have like, any rules about what glasses to use to drink sake?

26:12

Satomi: Um, not rules. But there's, you know, on my course, I usually talk about glassware and how to choose glasses depending on a different style of sake. So it's a little bit like wine if you think more about it. Richer savoury style, full-body style sake can be enjoyed in quite chunky, earthenware sort of sake cups. Like traditional sake cups, you might have seen on the internet or in movies.

And light style, fresh, elegant style, or sometimes sparkling sake, these can be enjoyed in a champagne glass. And the other styles can be wine glass or small sake cups. So it's really interesting to try with different glassware then you might taste it differently.

27:24

Alex: Really? Hmm, it's quite interesting that you think about Japan as a country of very strict rules. People address each other in a very formal way dependent on seniority and other things. And when you talk about a lot of stuff, it's very liberal. "Oh, yeah, you can drink it from that. Or you can drink from that. You can use this temperature. Yeah, you can have it with it." It's very liberating in a way. Because…

27:59

Satomi: It's true. Never thought about that.

28:02

Alex: Hmm. It's an interesting contrast between certain traditions and other stuff. It’s like… I don’t know. I was reading a book about Kyoto by Alex Kerr. And he was saying that all Buddhist temples in Japan, were built based on this kind of concept. There was a mountain in the middle and four other mountains in the corners. 

And sometimes they had four mountains in the corners, sometimes they had three. But sometimes they didn't have the main mountain in the middle at all. So it's like a concept but taking this very loosely. It’s the same with sake. It’s like “daiginjo should be drunk cold but If you don't like a cold, you can try to warm it up”…

28:58

Satomi: True (laughing).

29:03

Alex: It's quite interesting.

29:04

Satomi: They had a lot of sake when they were planing these temples...

Satomi’s sake recommendation: Nishinoseki Cube

29:14

Alex: Okay, do you have any sake what you would like to recommend to our listeners?

29:24

Satomi: Yeah. It's really difficult to pick.

29:29

Alex: I know.

29:33

Satomi: Well, this is quite a lot of sake I like but recently I really, really liked the sake called Nishinoseki. And it comes from a brewery located on Kyushu Island. So it's a really southern part of Japan. And their junmai sake is great. But they have another sake called Cube. It comes in a small 300ml bottle. So this sake is designed to be drunk on the rocks…

30:07

Alex: Oh, really?

30:08

Satomi: It's genshu, which means undiluted. Usually, sake is diluted with water, to adjust taste and alcohol percentage and so on. But this sake hasn't been diluted. So the alcohol content might be a little bit high, I think 17%. So, it has got quite a good body and structure. And then when you add ice, it doesn't really break any balance and the sake remains quite tasty. So it's really nice for a hot day, of course, before you start the meal. It's quite nice to have this sake on the rocks. And then move to something else.

31:01

Alex: To be honest, I've never tried sake on the rocks.

31:04

Satomi: Yeah, it's really good?

31:07

Alex: I keep hearing about it.

31:10

Satomi: Yeah. This summer was so hot. So I added a splash of soda water in my sake. And that makes it much lighter because sometimes when you drink alcohol in the hot weather it makes you feel even hotter.

31:26

Alex: Yeah. Like Schorler, this German drink when they take the white wine and put soda in it, making a fizzy drink. And it's light and refreshing and not very alcoholic. And you don't want to drink something strong in hot weather. So yeah, it's pretty cool. I knew about sake on the rocks but didn't know which one to try. So now I know.

31:58

Satomi: Is is great. Yeah.

32:02

Alex: Cool. Thank you very much!

32:04

Satomi: No, thank you!

32:04

Alex: It was very great to see you. Because I used to see you on Instagram and you can’t interact properly. It’s more like only sending messages. That’s it. So now it’s very nice to see you…

***

32:26

Alex: I hope that you’ve enjoyed our conversation with Satomi. By the way, the sake she recommended, Nishinoseki Cube, is available at our sponsor’s website, londonsake.com with pairing suggestions and more information about the rice variety, polishing ratio and anything else in case you wonder. And don’t forget that listeners of the podcast can get a 10% discount by using the code: SUGIDAMA (all caps) during checkout. London Sake: making sake simple."

Ending

33:00

That’s it for today. I will be back with more episodes. The second part of the How Sake is Made series and interviews with other super interesting people about sake life and everything. 

In the meantime, try some sake and let me know if you like it. Look at my website, sugidama.co.uk. I am going to publish my recommendations for the 5 best sake for a rainy day soon or look at the tasting notes section. Please, send me an email or leave a comment about your experience. 

Again if you like the episode and want more, hit the SUBSCRIBE button, please, please, please if you want to support Sugidama Podcast, leave a review. Don’t wait, just do it now. It only takes a few minutes and means a really big deal for me! Again, share this podcast with your friends, relatives, co-workers, with anyone who might ask you about sake, or on your social media, chat apps anywhere. 

Thanks a lot for listening!

Kampai!