Ep 24: Message in a Bottle: Interview with Andy Travers, London Sake

In the final episode of Season 2, I am talking to Andy Travers, the founder of London Sake, an online sake shop, and Sugidama Podcast's sponsor. We covered quite a lot of topics from the London Sake story, to the Olympics, bottle labels and managed to taste and discussed three excellent sake during our conversation.

London Sake is an excellent online sake store and has one of the widest premium and craft sake selections available online today. They deliver across the UK and Europe, and with over 100 sake from 25 breweries, there really is something for everyone.

Using simple online tasting notes and sensible, affordable food pairings they help you find the perfect sake without any of the fuss. Listeners of the podcast can get a 10% discount Listen to the episode to get the magical code! London Sake: making sake simple.

Episode's Content:

• Andy's sake journey
• London Sake story
• Dassai 45
• Nanbu Bijin Tokubetsu Junmai
• Sake bottle labels
• Will the Tokyo Olympics boost sake sales outside Japan?
• London Sake customers
• Shirakabegura Junmai Daiginjo
• The art of selecting sake
• Looking ahead
• Sake of the episode: Shichiken Junmai Daiginjo

Kampai!
Sake mentioned:

Dassai 45 Junmai Daiginjo
Asahi Shuzo
London Sake

Nanbu Bijin Tokubetsu Junmai
Nanbu Bijin Brewery
London Sake

Shirakabegura Junmai Daiginjo
Shirakabegura Brewery
London Sake

Shichiken Junmai Daiginjo
Shichiken  Sake Brewery
London Sake

Sugidama Podcast on Podchaser - please review if you don't use Apple Podcasts

Music used:
Wirklich Wichtig (CB 27) by Checkie Brown https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Checkie_Brown_1005/hey/Wirklich_Wichtig_CB_27

Just Arround the World (Kielokaz ID 362) by KieLoKaz
 https://freemusicarchive.org/music/KieLoKaz/Free_Ganymed/Just_Arround_the_World_Kielokaz_ID_362

Licence: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/

Vocal: Svetlana

Transcript

 00:01

Andy: Yeah, it gives us a great sense of pride to bring sake to people's, you know, fridges and kitchens and on their dining tables during a difficult time. I know it brings a lot of joy to a lot of people.

***

00:35

Alex: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the grand finale episode of Season Two of Sugidama Podcast, the podcast about Japanese sake, the drink which was difficult to find even in London only several years ago, but now you can buy it in many places: Japanese grocery stores, traditional wine shops, supermarkets and of course online. And this is the topic of this episode, which is number 24 by the way. We are going to talk to Andy Travers, the founder of London Sake online Sake subscriptions & bottle shop, which is by pure coincidence the sponsor of Sugidama Podcast.

London Sake have one of the widest selections of premium and craft sake available online today. You can choose from over 100 sake from 25 breweries, and they will deliver across the UK and many European markets. And if you don’t know what sake to choose you can use simple online tasting notes together with very sensible and affordable food pairings to help you decide. What’s more, you can get a 10% discount by just using the code: SUGIDAMA (all caps) during checkout. London Sake: making sake simple.”

My name is Alex and I live in London. I am a certified sake specialist, sake judge, and sake educator and advocate. Besides this podcast, I have Sugidama Blog, where I write about sake, publish tasting notes and overviews as well as information about sake events happening in London. 

So today I am talking to Andy Travers, the founder of London Sake. We have been planing this episode for some time and something always came up disrupting our schedules. Finally, just before a break in my podcasting season, we managed to hook up on Zencastr and record an interview covering a lot of topics from London Sake’s inception story to the Olympics, sake bottle labels and many others. And in the course of our conversation, we managed to taste three amazing sake. 

So here we go!

02:56

Alex: Hi Andy!

 02:59

Andy: Hi Alex, I'm very well, thank you. It's great to be here.

03:01

Alex: Yeah, Great to have you here. Because we've been talking about it for months actually to have you on the episode.

03:10

Andy: It’s been a little while yeah.

03:12

Alex: Yeah, it's finally happened.

03:14

Andy: Yeah, I'm very pleased I could join you.

03:17

Alex: Yeah it's the final episode, so it's a good conclusion of Season 2.

03:23

Andy: Yeah I consider that a privilege.

03:26

Alex: Great! Probably we start with some introduction. Why don't you tell us about yourself, and we'll take it from there.

03:36

Andy: Sure. My name is Andy Travers, I'm the founder and director of London Sake, a sake e-commerce business which runs sake subscriptions and an online bottle shop in the UK.

03:52

Alex: Cool. So could you tell us a bit more about your story? So how did you first get into sake? What was your story like trying and realising that you like it? And then how it took you from there to actually starting a business?

04:10

Andy: Sure. Well, that's that story probably starts around 10 years ago or so. I had a close friend who had travelled to Japan and used to tell tales of their travels and made Japan, a Japanese culture sound so magical and appealing that it really piqued my interest. And along with Japanese cuisine and culture, I came across sake for the first time probably around then. And it wasn't until around 2013 that I myself decided to take a break from work and do some travelling and that travel took me to Japan first and foremost. So I spent a couple of months there in the beginning of 2013 and travelled by myself across the country to various different places. And inevitably on those trips, you bump into sake, into sake breweries and restaurants, sake shops inside stations and things like that. And I... I picked up a kind of little taste for it there certainly and an appreciation for how it was brewed and the heritage of the breweries and the passion that is within the industry. But it wasn't actually till I came back I bumped into an old colleague of mine, and we started working together in... later in... in that year. And he had been slightly obsessed with sake for a couple of years and had gathered a number of books and met a whole other people across London and had been on a mission to find every restaurant and retailer in the UK, which at the time wasn't a huge number. So he led me his a few of his books, and we went to a few restaurants together and tried a few sake and they kind of snowballed from there.

And I started to become a little bit geeky about sake and that took me to you know, part of the way that I find myself learning most effectively is to really kind of engage in it a bit more experiential so I ended up setting up the London Sake social media profiles in kind of 2014 as a way to document my education journey and I guess I had one eye maybe on expanding it in the future into something else, but I considered myself and still do really a student of sake. So yeah that that kind of led from one thing to another. And I started attending the London Sake School sessions and took the WSET course when it first came out and in 2015. I think I was one of the first cohorts for that. And I just was really inspired by the people that I met, and you know just fascinated by the whole category itself yeah. So yeah fast forward to 2018 and the business plan kind of really started to take shape and slowly worked on that in the background alongside my day job. 

And then we launched London Sake the bottle shop and subscription offering on World Sake Day October 1st 2019 and it's been going strong ever since, and I have to say I've loved every moment of it actually it's as hard as it has been times it's just such a wonderful group of people I think in the UK and the kind of very niche sake circles, but yeah, I found myself kind of very inspired and enjoying every minute of it. 

07:59

Alex: Yeah, it's true. I mean this is a very exciting story and I absolutely agree that the people of sake in London, a lot of them if not most of them are amazing people and I agree that you meet them and you learn from them quite a lot every time and they very nice people to talk to, to you know to joke around and yeah…

08:24

Andy: Yeah, I found everybody to be very generous. In my kind of journey willing to help and support one another and I do believe in the UK it's a case of kind of a rising tide lifts all boats, so everybody helps everybody else and the more visibility that sake gets as a category I think is good for everyone involved.

08:51

Alex: Yeah exactly. So when you were thinking about your London Sake bottle shop, have you got any kind of core idea, some kind of philosophy around it? Did you want to achieve something apart from you know to earn some money and to start the business?

09:12

Andy: Yeah. I for us mission sounds a little bit cliché, but I genuinely hoped to raise awareness of the category that I found so interesting and so enjoyable to a wider group of people. So accessibility was a big part of what we're setting out to achieve. With the hope that if we were able to achieve that goal then you know, the kind of business side of it would take care of itself to some extent. So the idea was that we wanted to bring sake that was appealing to the widest possible audience whether that's from a kind of price perspective or a style perspective and make sure that the education that went alongside it allowed people to make choices confidently, which we found to be a little bit of a barrier, was as helpful as possible. So that was the kind of core philosophy behind the selection of sake and the website that surrounds the bottle shop.

10:16

Alex: Okay. I'm just wondering so for example, you don't import directly from Japan. You use the importers who are already in the UK. So how did you make this decision? Because I know that some companies like if you look at like Tengu, they import and all if you look take Moto London, a sake bar, they also import from Japan.

10:45

Andy: That's right

10:46

Alex: So how did you make this decision to use local importers rather than do directly?

10:54

Andy: Yeah. So I think in part that was down to the fact of our relationships at the time. And it is quite a complex operation to set up direct import for the kind of breadth of sake range that we wanted. And we certainly looked at doing that, and we would never close the door on maybe importing directly in the future. But we found pretty quickly that there are a number of you know, very knowledgeable reputable wholesalers in the UK who have been importing for a number of years who had a lot of that expertise and infrastructure already. So. But what they were missing really was a kind of shopfront, particularly online to connect directly to the consumers. A lot of it is going direct to restaurants or a few retail stores: Japan Centre and a few others. So we felt that there was room for us to provide an online shopfront if you like for those wholesalers. And we have built our relationships with the various different importers and wholesalers across the UK over the years.

12:13

Alex: So you started the business just before COVID this you know...

12:20

Andy: It's right.

12:21

Alex: ...event that probably changed our lives forever. And so how did it impact your business?

12:31

Andy: Yeah. So I mean, I consider us extremely fortunate in this regard. We had launched almost six months to the day prior to the first lockdown in the UK, the lockdown that closed the number of restaurants and shops. And during that time we had managed to iron out a number of the kind of operational kinks around storage and distribution and things like that. So when the pandemic started to bite in terms of lockdowns, we were actually relatively well set up to deal with that.

We were a little surprised by the kind of spike in demand we had you know had come off the back of a relatively busy first Christmas. But I don't think we were quite ready for what came. So we saw a significant increase, you know, multiples of what we were taking in terms of orders in the April-May-June period and things have grown really ever since. And so it has been interesting to see how it's evolved over time. But we had nothing to compare it to prior to that. So it was hard to pick out what was as a result of the pandemic versus perhaps, you know, that kind of natural growth that we had been seeing in those first six months. But there is no doubt that it had an impact as it did with a number of other e-commerce businesses.

14:04

Alex: Sure, sure. So what were the major setbacks for you and major achievements?

14:10

Andy: Yeah It's funny. Like that very first sale that you take, it's a very special kind of. And so, you know, those things are a stick out in the mind. And the same with the kind of subscribers. When you start getting feedback from customers that they're really enjoying, you know, the sake and the gifts, and the cups, and things like that, that they're receiving. These are real highlights. As I think is the... you know, we've expanded a little bit into things like corporate orders and some trade orders and things like that. That, you know, take us to a slightly different level as well. So those are kind of big milestones. 

There's often a lot of paperwork and admin in the background that needs to happen to get those things working properly. The kind of struggles, there's been a few as I say like adjusting to the initial big spikes in demand, trying to keep things moving along and keeping all the customers happy. We are extremely hands-on in every step of the business and so you take every order very personally. And so when things don't go perfectly, you know that those things can be tricky. And I also had my first child two days into lockdown as well. So it was another thing to kind of juggle at the same time. So there were really incredible twelve months.

15:43

Alex: I remember I first ordered from you guys, I think when lockdown started. And I ordered the set of Kanpai sake just to... I was thinking: “Okay, I just want to support my local sake brewery”. And I ordered it and when it came... I think I found it's quite sweet. It was this coaster, it was some kind of message on it and yeah, I found it personal touch when I received the parcel, which was really nice and very welcoming and warm. So absolutely agree that you guys take it personally and…

16:26

Andy: Yeah, that's really nice to hear. We certainly during that period, you know, we wanted to do the same I'm sure you know Tom and Lucy Kanpai. And you know at the time they weren't selling online, and so we were helping them do that. And really wanted to help, you know, a very young business make it through a difficult period. And we wrote a lot of messages that that summer to a lot of customers. 

And yeah, we try to add a little something whenever possible to our step in the process of getting you to know this amazing product from the brewery into the customer's hand. And yeah just I mean just a word on Tom and Lucy and Kanpai as well. They really are kind of flying the flag for the UK. I found them both very inspirational every time I talk to Tom. It gives me a great sense of kind of pride of being involved in the UK sake industry. And they've done some incredible things.

17:29

Alex: Yeah, yeah, it's incredible how they took from a very small geeky brewery to people who make amazing sake.

17:39

Andy: Yeah, very impressive. 

17:44

Alex: Okay, so you send me some sake that is sold on the website. So probably we’ll try one of them and just talk about it.

17:50

Andy: Sure.

17:51

Alex: And then we continue our discussion after that. So which one would you like to? 

17:59

Andy: Well, I think we should start with a kind of crowd favourite which is the Dassai 45. And that the reason I think we should start with this is I find it one of the more accessible sake as I said, certainly one of our customer favourites. It seems to be particularly popular. And I find it a very good introductory sake for wine drinkers in particular. And hopefully, we might get to contrast it with a different sake that we have here today which I find a little bit more appropriate for beer drinkers actually. And I often use those as kind of recommendations for people that I know the kind of drinking preferences and things like that. So yeah, let's try the Dassai 45. 

18:48

Alex: Okay, let me open mine.

18:54

Andy: And mines have been out of the fridge for maybe 10 minutes.

 19:02

Alex: Okay, I think mine as well.

19:05

Andy: I think that's my preferred way to have a chilled sake not straight out of the fridge, but give it a little time to just warm up a touch.

19:22

Alex: Okay.

19:23

Both: Kampai!

19:31

Alex: So I think the first thing that you feel its aroma. It’s just it goes straight away into your nose. And you say “oh yeah”. It's absolutely fruity and complex and very I would say, invigorating in a way.

19:52

Andy: Yeah, I would have to agree. And another reason why I like to let it warm just a touch, I think, against straight out of the fridge. You often find the aroma a little bit more restrained, and you don't get to quite enjoy you know. I get a lot of sweetness off the Dassai 45. It may be cotton candies too often used to describe it. And I find kind of overripe fruit as well, kind of mango or something very sweet that you can get straight out of the glass. Really, really enjoyable very approachable.

20:30

Alex: Yeah. I personally also when people ask me about “Oh I've never tried sake, what sake should I try?” I think Dassai, well it used to be 50 but now 45, is to be my straight advice. Basically, try Dassai and if you like it you will like sake, if you don't like it probably we can think about something else. So I also agree that it's a very good sort of introductory (sake).

21:02

Andy: Yeah, I find that quite a good rule of thumb as well. This and as I said that one other tend to be my go-to starter sake. And you know, we often have a 45 included in a number of our tasting sets and bundles. We've added quite a few different types of tasting set by style or brewery or other combinations recently to the bottle shop and Dassai features a lot in those because it's so versatile and so accessible to those people who are new to sake. It's very good as a gift as well.

21:46

Alex: Yeah yeah. It's very good. And I like the label, I like how it looks. And it's quite sweet, isn't it?

21:56

Andy: It is. And it's interesting because I don't think I ever found it so sweet when I initially tried it. I guess it's this the same with wine as your palate develops over time you kind of have to adjust a little bit to those when you’re recommending to people who don't drink it often or never tried it. That maybe it will feel a little bit less sweet to them at first taste.

 22:28

Alex: So what kind of food would you recommend with Dassai because I think it's one of the sake that you can drink on its own because it's light, it's sweet, it's fruity. But also obviously sake is very good with food. So what kind of food pairing would you recommend? 

22:49

Andy: Yeah. To me, it’s quite versatile. So my standard kind of recommendations would be to go for maybe a light appetizer: could be shrimp or tempura or something like that. Where you give a little bit of room for the sake itself, but it equally I think it holds up quite well due to sweetness for some desserts also or even like kind of fresh fruits or like a fruit salad from a dessert perspective works quite well. I think it goes well also with slightly creamier dishes also, which is not all that usual I've found for the junmai daiginjo category. It tends to be paired with classical Japanese or Asian dishes. But yeah, I find this one is versatile enough just to stand up to some of those creamy dishes as well.

23:52

Alex: Yeah, yeah, absolutely agree. I think because creamy dishes they got a bit of sweetness and it works very well with Dassai in this regard. 

24:05

So do remember the first sake you tried?

24:11

Andy: Probably the first dozen sake I tried I wouldn't be able to recall what they were. Often recommendations from a sommelier or a gift from a friend or tasted somewhere perhaps even in a brewery. Or on some kind of tour or something like that in Japan. And in those early days certainly wasn't paying enough attention. But this is the key thing for sake for me which is when you hit on that very first sake that gives you that a-ha moment which stops you in your tracks and you have that kind of epiphany that, this drink has so much more to it than you perhaps noticed before.

I do remember that and that's one of the sake that I've sent you today. Maybe it's a good opportunity to kind of segway into that. But the Nanbu Bijin Tokubetsu Junmai I distinctly remember I think at the very first World Sake Day event I think I went to. So that could have been 2014 maybe. It was one of the first ones I think I had been working my way around the different stalls and being offered that by I think one of my reps are now the wholesalers that we work with a good friend of mine. And just kind of, yeah, stopping in my tracks and thinking this is something very, very special. And for that reason, we will often make this the very first sake that we send out in our subscription boxes because I think it has the character about it to give other people the same experience.

26:23

Alex: Yeah. I remember I was watching this movie, “Kampai for the Sake of Sake” and it was featuring John Gauntner, Phillip Harper and the president of Nanbu Bijin. He's very charismatic. It's definitely. I met him at the Japanese embassy at this annual event a few years ago it was... I think it was the first time or second time I went there. And you feel such a warmth coming from him and his enthusiasm just like oozing and yeah, he's a great guy, and he can really present sake.

27:06

Andy: Yeah yeah he talks wonderfully about the philosophy and the process and their ambitions as a brewery. And yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, he's a very warm character, very charismatic always laughing and a joy to be around.

27:26

Alex: Yeah, yeah, so shall we try?

27:29

Andy: Yeah, I switch to an ochoko I think for this one. I've not chilled this one. I prefer this room temperature personally. I think this is one of the few that for me works across the temperature ranges also chilled, room temperature and lightly warmed that's not too much. I think it shows a lot of different characteristics of those different temperatures, which is clearly one of the unique things about sake. And something that I've I've personally enjoyed playing around with temperature and serving temperatures and different styles over the years.

28:26

Alex: You can straight away tell the difference. It's not that aromatic. 

28:33

Andy: I'll describe this as a little bit more rustic than the more floral daiginjo that we've just tried.

28:44

Alex: It's definitely more acidity here. It's very smooth.

28:52

Andy: Yeah really is. It's very balanced. It does have that acidity, but it's kind of offset by this umami flavour as well and also this like roundedness. There are no sharp edges to this one. That's very drinkable.

29:11

Alex: Yeah. It's very nice food sake. So what would you recommend with this one?

29:19

Andy: yeah so I've tried this one with all sorts of dishes at this stage. And I think the two that I've enjoyed the most are a mushroom based dishes but specifically a mushroom pasta dish and a creamy mushroom pasta dish that my wife makes. And it again a room temperature or just slightly cooler than that it's wonderful. The two just accentuate each other so nicely. And that's a very... that's like kind of comfort food I really enjoy that. That's a great dish or great pairing for the autumn and winter. And then during the summer, last year in particular I did a lot of barbecue and tried a lot of sake with different barbecue and I found that it stands up really nice to kind of have a fatty steak.

So I had some good fun experimenting with barbecue and found that yeah a nice kind of thick sirloin or rump steak or T-bone if you're lucky enough goes wonderfully with this. 

30:37

Alex: Yeah, I think one of the very attractive things for me for sake is that you can experiment with it. You can experiment with different foods, you can experiment with temperature, you can experiment with drinkware. And it's gives you quite a lot of different possibilities how to drink it and how to enjoy it and I found it really fascinating.

31:03

Andy: Yeah. I think “enjoys” is the word there. I find it fun. I've found wine to be a little bit more serious for at least for some people. And the appeal of sake and why I kind of went down the rabbit hole with sake, with the people that I met during my kind of schooling, was because it was just so much fun and so enjoyable. There is a lot less convention I think. And a lot more room to just play around and experiment like you say. And that's, yeah, that makes it very good fun.

31:45

Alex: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely things that you can think “Okay, let me try it with this dish” or “Let me try what this one” or “I probably should make it a bit warmer, what about even warmer”. And then you find this kind of sometimes perfect match between the temperature of sake and the food.

32:10

Andy: It's a real magical moment. Particularly when you... A lot of the time you're not even trying you just come across a particular moment. Another dish that goes really well with this Tokubetsu Junmai as well. I often do halloumi on the barbecue. Halloumi with rosemary and oil, you know, nice and simple. And those two the right again at the right temperature is just a match made in heaven, it's just so nice. And I'm waiting for the rain to pass here in London, so I can get out and do that again as soon as possible.

32:47

Alex: Yeah, halloumi sounds a very good match for that. And it's tokubetsu probably because the rice is polished to ginjo probably. It's basically ginjo grade sake but obviously with flavour and taste profile more like junmai.

33:09

Andy: Yeah that's right

33:11

Alex: What do you think about their change of the label? Because they used to be completely different label and now they made it more iconic and more stylish.

33:22

Andy: Yeah again at the hit nail on the head. Iconic is the perfect word for it. I love this label. I found the previous labels… For those who remember it was quite striking, you couldn't miss it. It was a kind of crazy mix of pink and purple and, you know, the Nanbu Bijin logo kind of sprayed across the front. And as fun, as it was I think to be taken a little bit more seriously almost and to stand out as the kind of quality of products that it is. I think this label is a much better representation of that than the slightly cartoony style that preceded it. There are a couple of Nanbu Bijin labels that still have that characteristic. The daiginjo is crazy like purple and yellow but yeah this one, I'm a big fan of.

34:25

Alex: Yeah, I quite like it. When it first was released, I think last year the first time, and it appeared in London I was thinking “oh yeah it's really good”. But what do you think in general about labels? Because I know that friend of mine he likes old labels, you know, these the ones that really shows that it's all brewery. But I know some breweries are trying to do like modern labels. I think Akitabare, they made few sake with very sort of stylish more like wine style labels. Rather than traditional Japanese ones. So, what do you think about it? 

35:04

Andy: Yes. So I know that this is, may not be able to see this but I have my scrapbook here of a thousand labels maybe. Maybe it, maybe a little bit less, I've kept since I first started tasting sake. And it's very interesting to just flip through this little kind of scrapbook and see the different styles and actually, that's the old Nanbu Bijin label right there. So, I think it's particularly important and perhaps not given as much importance as perhaps it should be in the context of making sake as a category better known and more accessible to people, which again is something which we care about quite a lot. 

So I absolutely understand the appeal of the aesthetic that comes with traditional labels and the traditional Japanese style and I find those you know, stunning and beautiful. But I also think you will see from other categories like craft beer obviously wine and a number of spirits categories as well that labelling and bottling is a really serious business if you're to stand out amongst the crowd. 

And particularly as an online business, you know, we are very heavily reliant on the imagery that we use and we deal with a lot of customers who simply have, you know, no prior knowledge of sake. And so I know, aesthetics is a really big part of their buying decision and they will consciously or unconsciously, you know, use some of that to help them make their purchase decisions.

So I think labels that are sympathetic to that when they're you know used in non-Japanese markets are very important. Because they have a kind of function as well as like beauty to them. So we kind of, torn a little bit between those things. I will often go for the quirky labels and be drawn to those. But we find that the more kind of practical informative and simple labelling is particularly if effective when it comes to helping people make their choices. 

37:39

Alex: Yeah absolutely agreed that obviously, the whole purpose of the label is to make people know what... give them some kind of idea what they're going to drink. And it's the same with this information on the label because it's again, I see a lot of debates about what to put on the labels and I know that some of the importers they put very-very brief information trying to explain what kind of sake it is rather than like a more descriptive... And some of the other people put quite a lot of information like a polishing ratio, acidity, sake metre value and other stuff.

And I think it's constant debates because some people say “people don't want to know all this kind of technical stuff” but if you are probably more into sake if you're more geeky, you probably want to see... I want to see, always want to see what is acidity was or a sake metre value of the sake. And when it's not on the label I have to go on the internet and find it on the brewery’s website sometimes. So it's a constant struggle between people who want to make it more accessible and people who…

38:54

Andy: It's a tricky balance for sure. I find that the importers themselves, the wholesalers, have to play a big role here. I think you know credit to those wholesalers who put the effort into the back labelling which gives a lot of English language translations of the technical specifications and the flavour profile and the details that are often eligible for those who don't read or speak Japanese.

And that can help a lot. That kind of utility is really helpful, and it allows the front labelling to be you know, a bit more playful or characteristic of the brewery itself, which is also kind of what you want to see, what you want to know. I guess to get a sense of how perhaps luxurious or playful, or fun those the product might be itself. You compare something like a bottle of Mio sparkling, which has a very clear identity that striking kind of blue bottle has a bit more of a fun playful, you know kind of characteristic than some of the other more refined junmai daiginjo that you see with you know, the pretty bottle tops and the straw ties and special boxes and things like that.

40:23

Alex: Yeah. 

 40:29

Alex: Just to remind you, that I am talking to Andy Travers, the founder of London Sake, our sponsor. Have a look at the London Sake website and their great selection of sake and don’t forget about the magic word, SUGIDAMA (all caps) to get your 10% discount. Back to Andy.

40:51

Alex: Do you think that the ongoing Olympics will contribute to more awareness of sake outside Japan? Because obviously people watching Olympics they probably get more interested in the country as well. it's a shame that they can't go there because usually people go there, and they try things, and they come back and try to find it here and create some demand. But do you think the current Olympics will do something good for sake?

41:23

Andy: So my heart says yes, and I truly hope that's the case. I might my head a little bit says no for a couple of reasons. And this is looking at the UK specifically. I think the time zone difference will have a slight impact on the amount of kind of content that is consumed, the lack of people in the stadium and I get the sense that this time around there's a bit less focus on what's happening outside of the events themselves and the cultural aspects.

Because there's just not as much happening. I think those factors will play into the kind of cut-through of some of those cultural aspects of the host country and the host city. And from the most recent example, the Rugby World Cup which was also in Japan, the impact at least from what we could detect was fairly limited. So we don't certainly hang our hopes on this being the spur to kind of create a whole load of new demand. But I've no doubt that it will have a positive impact on the perception of Japan and the country and the culture which may be in the long term will help raise the profile of sake.

42:50

Alex: Yeah, I think I agree. So with your customers... Because some of your customers obviously know what they are buying, they understand sake, they buy particular sake because they want it. But I'm sure that there are a lot of customers who probably have no idea about sake. Do you have any knowledge of why they buy sake for the first time online and what they're looking for?

43:21

Andy: Yeah, so that's a great question. We find that there are typically three or four different kinds of buckets of customers. And on the one end, you have the super knowledgeable sake geeks a bit like ourselves, who are interested in exploring new styles new brands or even new brewing years of their favourite sake. 

And then you have people who are perhaps aware of some of those bigger brands, Mio’s and Dassai’s. And they are typically buying a brand or product they know and like and will stick with that. But then as you say there is a there's a kind of a group of people who are coming into the category in a little bit cold and perhaps a typical story might be somebody who's been to a Japanese restaurant or a friend's house, and they've had some sake, and they've had their epiphany moment, and they're they're ready to go out and explore a little bit more. And so again, we've paid particular attention to try and get our website to be useful for exactly that kind of situation. 

The other is gifting. So we find a lot the people will want to buy sake as a gift, a unique gift which I think at this stage it really is still quite niche and interesting and cool. Buyer’s gift for a loved one. And so they're coming in again with little or no prior knowledge of sake and they're looking for help to try and navigate what is quite a complex world and the differences between grades and styles and rice varieties and polishing ratios they have very little understanding of. So you have to try and guide them through, which is the reason why we try and build things like tasting sets. We've recently launched the customer favourites bundle, we have an introductory tasting set that that kind of thing just helps the uninitiated make that that first purchase with a little bit of confidence.

45:51

Alex: So shall we probably try the third sake? I drank both Dassai and Nanbu Bijin. But I didn't drink this Junmai Daiginjo Shirakabegura. I tried some other of their sake because they've got quite a big range available in the UK, but not this one.

46:17

Andy: That's right. So, where to start with this one? It's again quite an approachable sake, a very balanced junmai daiginjo. It has a contrasting profile to something like a Dassai 45. I find. You can see it's a little bit darker in the glass. There's a bit more kind of melon and strawberry and fruit I find a slightly different aroma that you get. But still in that kind of classic daiginjo style. 

I get a bit more rice and body a bit richer on the palette. Whereas the Dassai 45 is a little bit lighter and more refined maybe. This one's got I think a little bit more going on. The brewery itself or the brand Shirakabegura, that's the same brewery that produces the Mio sparkling sake that was talking about before which is one of the popular ranges. 

And it comes from a company called Takara, who historically made soy sauce and other kinds of products and moved into sake and created this subsidiary. And the brewery has really just perfected the arts producing some wonderful products across a range of styles as well. As you say they've got quite a broad range. 

They do a kimoto ginjo, yamahai junmai, which we have as part of a brewery set which is a really-really interesting way of contrasting different styles for those people who perhaps tried a few sake and are looking to find out, to delve a little bit deeper to explore a bit more. That's a really nice way of getting to do that. They have a number of awards and a lot of recognition in the industry being a top-quality brewery.

48:32

Alex: Yeah. I found this aroma-wise more reserved. It's more on the heavier side in terms of aroma. It’s more like dried fruit and mango melon, but very ripened fruit. And in terms of taste, it's more acidic, and it's drier. So it's a very good combination of acidity and dryness.

49:05

Andy: Acidity I think is 1.5 from memory. It does have a little bit more on the acidity side, but again a bit like the Nanbu Bijin, I think it has a pretty good balance. They do a wonderful job of not letting that kind of dominate. Yeah, it's really funny quite smooth as well at the end. You don't get any harsh alcohol cut through. It's smoothed all the way through to the finish. Again another one which stands up quite well to fatty foods both meat and kind of fatty fish as well. We often say that there is particularly like deep-fried or kind of breaded meats or seafood can be really good combinations with sake like this.

49:59

Alex: Yeah, it's definitely very good with fatty salty dishes. And you can feel quite a lot of umami in it. So it's probably will interact very well with meat and fatty fish as you said because it's full of umami, yeah. 

50:21

Andy: I think I can picture this one on a seaside with fried calamari or something like that, like a fried squid that just really sets it off just nicely.

50:33

Alex: Yeah. 

50:35

Andy: Another one what I'd quite like is the labelling as well. Yeah, the gold label particularly when you see it relative to the other sake from the brewery. They lined up together, they look really neat together. I'm a big fan of those darker kinds of frosted bottles as well. I think they look really special. And another one that makes for a really great gift, the larger bottle. I think we both have the 300ml with us but the larger bottle which is 640ml comes in a very, very nice presentation box that makes it look really special.

51:19

Alex: It is quite unusual that they've got larger bottles in 640 rather than 720 which is the usual amount of sake.

51:29

Andy: Yeah, one of the few breweries that I see do that size. You get some 750ml but as you say the majority is 720. So they try again, I think trying to stand out against the other sake in any way that they can.

51:46

Alex: Yeah I think so. It was one of the sake I remember very well from my Kikisake-shi course.I remember was looking at the numbers and I think “Why is it 640?” And you definitely remember it, and it’s probably a good thing to do...

52:15

Alex: Yeah, I think the selection is very good because all three sake are very different, and they showcase different sides of sake. Because you've got very light and fruity Dassai, and you've got more savoury and down-to-earth Nanbu Bijin, and you've got very reserved Shirakabegura sake. So it's a great combination.

52:46

Andy: Yeah. I love the idea of taking two of the same style in the junmai daiginjo and just contrasting them side by side. It's recommended to anybody listening that one of the best ways to really understand sake when you're getting into it is to do exactly that. Blind tasting and side-by-side tasting of different styles, same brewery different sake, same style different breweries. And you know different temperatures and glassware as you said before, different food pairings, that's where the fun is in sake. There's so much variety that you're never going to run out of options.

53:33

Alex: So I guess it's quite difficult for you to... Because even if you buy sake from importers, you’re still facing a huge range of sake, which probably you have to make a choice what sake you want to put on your website rather than you can't buy everything. So how do you make this choice? How do you decide what sake you want to feature on the website?

54:02

Andy: Yeah, so it's a really good point and we have had to make those choices. I think we probably surface maybe one-quarter of what is actually brought into the UK or in theory brought to the UK. I think the rule is that we are led by the customer. So we will stock what we see that the customers are enjoying and asking for. And we'll hold back on those things that don't sell as well, and we will manage the stock and inventory of those in slightly different ways. We still hope to kind of expand but we have to do that in a fairly careful and considered way I would say. Because what you don't want to do is buy a lot of stock and have it sit around for ages and the customer ends up with a poor quality product. You want everybody to have that aha moment and the best way to do that is to get them the best possible product, as fresh as possible. So we do have to do some kind of pruning of the catalogue every now and again, but we also add in new stuff all the time and we test it out and we cycle through different options. So it's a slightly kind of fluid set-up.

55:27

Alex: Okay. Yeah, it's fascinating because think about it. Selling sake is that on the one hand it's a very complex category, and you have to have a lot of knowledge. But on the other hand, you want to present it in the way people understand and make an easy choice. And I sort of like the way you do guys because you’ve basically got your very simple description of sake in terms of a flavour and taste, and also giving these food pairings. So I think it's quite easy if you want to buy something, and you want to browse quickly, to make your choice.

56:12

Andy: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. That was the hope, that was the intention. And I have a lot of respect and time for what are the other sake retailers out there and the websites that they have built and developed over many years. And you know, we look at some of them with a lot of envy. But we for the reasons that you described, we decided to take a particular approach which was very specific food pairings with big visuals to make sure that... We know we weren't being perhaps too generic with “this pairs with fish, this pairs with meat”. It's like “no, here is a fantastic dish that makes a great pairing” and to give people confidence through that. We do give a lot of the technical information to allow our more experienced buyers to filter in that way. 

But we also focused a lot on how we construct the shop in terms of how people navigate. So we have a kind of filtering approach which just says: “I want fruity sake. I want dry sake. I want something which has won some awards. Or I want something which is in a small bottle or something that I can warm up, or I want sparkling sake.” So people who know that much information but not much more we want to give them away to you know, easily narrow down the selection and find something. And again it's about giving people confidence that the money they’re going to spend on sake is well spent.

57:51

Alex: Yeah yeah, yeah, thanks a lot, guys! So yeah, it's a great thing to sell sake and especially during the lockdown when you couldn't go out, and it was one of the sources of sake here for a lot of people including me, yeah.

58:05

Andy: Yeah, it gives us a great sense of pride to bring sake to people's, you know, fridges and kitchens and on their dining tables during a difficult time. I know it brings a lot of joy to a lot of people.

58:19

Alex: Yeah, so where do you see yourself like in five-ten years, if the business is going on and what do you want to achieve?

58:28

Andy: Retired hopefully. No, I don't know where this kind of journey will take us in honesty. But I am very much just enjoying the journey right now. So we don't have huge goals and milestones and things like that, we take a lot of joy out of what we're doing right now, and we'll continue to kind of build and grow the business in different ways slowly and steadily. We're looking at much more in the way of partnerships and sponsorship and things like that. We're obviously sponsors of a wonderful sake podcast that you might know. But you know, we've also partnered with Hyper Japan this year and I think there's an opportunity to do more there. 

What I would really love to do is to lift the category as a whole in the UK. That for me is the most I think the rewarding thing to pursue. And I think that is something that we aim to spend a little bit more time on hopefully in the coming years because as I said earlier arising to tide lifts all boats in this case. And with such as a small but friendly and knowledgeable and wonderful group of people here in the UK who are kind of leading the industry if you like, that we'd like to do something that benefits everybody.

1:00:11

Alex: We talked about three sake but at the end of the episode I usually ask people to introduce another sake. Would you like to feature us some sack here at the end of the episode?

1:00:24

Andy: Yeah, I would love to. Narrowing down those choices is the challenge. I think I'm gonna go for another sake which gave me one of those are moments. And this was several years into to sake tasting and my kind of sake education if you like. But it's a sake called the Hatsumago and it's a kimoto honjoso.

1:01:01

Alex: Sorry, just realised that I featured it in episode 14 because I remember you saying it.

1:01:10

Andy: That's right, of course. I'm happy to pick another one. Okay, so there's another one which has a special place in my heart. I went to ProWein in Dusseldorf, maybe three years ago when sake was in its early stages of showcasing at that event. And for anyone who's not been to ProWein, it's a huge industry wine event in these enormous conference rooms, event rooms like aircraft hangers that are just in a building after building up the building of different types of wines, different regions and styles. And then in the far corner, there is a kind of Wines of the World section and there was one tiny little row of sake tables and breweries and wholesalers who were showcasing some incredible sake that they'd brought to Europe and sake that had been in Europe for the very first time that year.

I came across a brand who sell in France, and they introduced me to Shichiken Brewery and they showed me three different styles. And we currently stock a couple of those the junmai and junmai daiginjo, and also a sparkling which was one of the most incredible sparkling sake I've had. But the one that I would call out as a recommendation to your listeners is the Shichiken Junmai Daginjo.

Again price wise it's competitive, it's really fantastic value for what it is. This brewery is... you can kind of tell the expertise through the drink somehow like the precision and the attention to detail. And again like the balance when you try this alongside other junmai daiginjo is fantastic and also pairs really well with paella, one of my favourite dishes. My family member who's Spanish and makes an incredible paella, and we've enjoyed it several times with that. So that would be my call-out, the Shichiken Junmai Daiginjo.

1:03:51

Alex: Definitely, I don't think I tried Shichiken, but yeah, it's it sounds very enticing. 

1:03:58

Alex: Okay, yeah thanks a lot for the conversation. I think it is quite interesting because we talked about your business, we've talked about sake, we tried three sake. So I think we’ve covered all the territory around sake. So I guess it's should be very interesting for other people to listen.

1:04:22

Andy: Yeah, thank you. It's been great fun, it's been a great time. As you know, I'm a huge fan of the podcast and everybody who's trying to raise the profile of sake particularly here in the UK. And you actually have done it an incredible job for your part in doing that. So it's a real privilege to be here and share some great sake with you. I hope maybe I can come back again sometime and yeah try some new sake too.

1:04:50

Alex: Yeah sounds cool!

1:04:52

Andy: Thanks a lot, thank you very much. 

1:04:58

Alex: It was a great conversation with Andy and his choice of sake for the occasion was superb. And it’s an amazing conclusion of Season 2, what do you think? 

So that’s it for today. I’ll be back with more episodes in autumn. I haven’t decided yet when because I am thinking about either have Season 3 overrunning the year-end with its conclusion in February or to do it once a week and run from October to the end of December. But if you don’t want to miss the new season, just hit the subscribe button anywhere you are listening to this podcast to and the first episode of Season 3 will arrive to your player as soon as it’s released followed by consecutive episodes.

In the meantime, try any or all the sake featured in these episodes. They are available from the London Sake website either as single bottles or part of tasting sets. And you can get a 10% discount at the London Sake website by entering SUGIDAMA all in caps at the checkout.

If you have any questions or suggestions about any sake topic, just drop me a line. As I have already mentioned I started planning Season 3 already and any feedback would be very useful. My email address is alex@sugidama.co.uk or you can tag me on Instagram or Twitter @sugidamablog in one word.

Again don’t forget to subscribe to Sugidama Podcast if you don’t want to miss Season 3. My usual plea, please leave a review if you have not yet done it. By the statistics I’ve got from my media host, I should have more reviews than I am currently getting. And reviews is on of the best way to support me and my efforts I put into this podcast.

There are two places you can easily do it. On Apple Podcasts if you use iPhone, iPad or Mac computer. Go to the Sugidama Podcast page there, scroll down to the bottom, where you can see reviews. There will be a link to add your own review.

Another option is the Podchaser website, where you can leave a review for any podcast regardless of what platform you use to listen to it. I’ve got a link to my page there in the show notes. You need to register at Podchaser but it’s easy because you can use your Twitter or Facebook credentials and then leave a review.

And of course, please share this podcast with your friends on your social media, chat apps anywhere. A lot of people mention a friend’s recommendation as a reason for listening to a particular podcast. So it’s a great way to support Sugidama Podcast.

Thanks a lot for listening! Enjoy the rest of the summer. And I will talk to you in autumn!

Kampai!