Be Informed. Be Well. With John Malanca

Open to Hope: The Power of Grief Support with Dr. Gloria and Dr. Heidi Horsley

March 31, 2021 John Malanca Season 1 Episode 35
Be Informed. Be Well. With John Malanca
Open to Hope: The Power of Grief Support with Dr. Gloria and Dr. Heidi Horsley
Show Notes Transcript

Join John Malanca as he speaks openly about his grief journey after the passing of his beautiful wife Corinne. He shares his thoughts and experiences with mother and daughter grief counselors, Drs. Gloria and Heidi Horsley, even as they embark on their own grief journey after Gloria’s son died suddenly in an accident also leaving her daughter Heidi without her beloved brother and the recent passing of Gloria’s husband, Heidi’s father. 

Listen in to this poignant yet hope filled podcast. In the early 80s Dr. Gloria Horsley lost her son in a tragic accident. Realizing there was little support for siblings and watching her three daughters grieve his loss spurred her to action and to her life’s work. 

Ultimately, the Horsleys started the “Open to Hope Foundation”. Now, shortly after experiencing the loss of her husband, both Gloria and Heidi speak openly with John Malanca about grief and the journey of Hope and a purposeful life. These courageous ladies discuss the death of a partner, beloved or not, a child, sibling, parent or any loved one. 

They offer important information, such as there being hope after loss, that real men do cry, there is no research of any kind showing an increase in divorce after the death of a child or loved one, and that a baby after the loss of a child is referred to as a “Rainbow Baby”. Some other topics of interest in this compelling podcast is that there is no right or wrong way to grieve, and that losing a parent even as an adult can be much harder than one might think. 

Listen in, or watch John, Gloria and Heidi discuss this difficult yet most important topic. Whether you have experienced personal loss or are just interested in the process, grief remains one of the most profound of human experiences. 

You will be happy you tuned in! Follow Gloria and Heidi on Podcasts, national news, on their website; or via 

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John Malanca 0:07
Good morning I say this morning because it's 9am we normally don't film and first thing in the morning but John Malanca united patient group being formed in be well we have a mother daughter duo and I'm excited to have you both on there's a Gloria and Heidi Horsley and good late Good morning ladies and good afternoon. I know Heidi you're in New York right?

Unknown Speaker 0:32
Usually right now I'm in Arizona.

John Malanca 0:34
Okay she you're kind of you're one hour ahead or behind us.

Unknown Speaker 0:39
And I'm one hour ahead of you got ahead of you. So

John Malanca 0:41
you're getting you're getting closer into morphing in the timezone with with with your mom and I here but yes, Dr. GLORIA Horsley and Dr. Heidi Horsley are bi-coastal mother, daughter team and founders of open to Hope Foundation with a mission to help people find hope after loss. They host a weekly award winning cable show as well as a podcast. It is an adjunct professor at Columbia University and serves as a advisory board on the advisory board for the children's Brain Tumor Foundation. GLORIA is a former faculty member for the University of Rochester and a member of the Forbes nonprofit Council. Together they serve on the advisory boards at Elisabeth Kubler is a cooler. Yeah, Kubler Ross Foundation and the tragedy assistant programs for survivors of military Terry loss, also known as caps. They've authored eight books, and numerous book chapters and articles and give workshops and keynotes around the world, ski around the country. But I'm certain you do this around the world as well. And Welcome ladies. Thanks for being on.

Unknown Speaker 1:39
Thanks, john.

John Malanca 1:42
So how we met one of my best best friends from high school and we're continuing can we still work together? I your his neighbor, Gloria. Yeah. So I remember today, your husband passed away and he shares it. How's it going on? He's like, I'm just really sad. My neighbor's husband passed away. Great guy. And, and let me start talking about what you and your daughter do. And I said, I would love to talk to her. I said, Well, why don't you get her on the show? And I said even better. So I'll get a little therapy session and and share your story with others as well. And so, so the Open Heart Foundation, what do you sketch give me open Hope Foundation. What do you what do you do there?

Gloria Horsley 2:26
Well, years ago, in 1983, my son Scott was 17 years old, and his cousin and he were in a hideous automobile accident, they hit a retaining wall, and the car blew up, and they burned to death. And I was a therapist at that time. And I also taught at the University of Rochester. And over the years, I am a family therapist and an MFT also, and over the years, I, you know, just did family therapy. And then with the advent of the internet and getting involved with an organization called the compassionate friends, they asked me 14 years ago, if I would do a show to put on their website there, they specialize in loss of children. It's a peer support group. So 14 years ago, I started the show. And then with the advent of the Internet, it just kept rolling, rolling, rolling. And Heidi said to me, Mom, you're not talking about sibling loss. And I said, Well, yeah, if you want to talk about sibling loss, join me because she's a psychologist teaches at Columbia. And she came on and it's all history. Now we have a million people listen to our podcasts. And Heidi, you can take your side of it. But that's kind of how it's gone wrong.

Heidi Horsley 3:40
That's definitely how I got involved is saying that there was not a sibling lost voice. And we we as siblings were very minimized and unacknowledged anyway. So I felt like that was happening here. And so my mom said, Come on, and be my co host, and be careful what you wish for. But when my brother died, I was 20.

Unknown Speaker 3:56
So I told you,

Unknown Speaker 3:59
I was 20 I was not in the field of grief and loss. I was not in the field of psychology, I was in the field of fashion merchandising. It was in college, having fun, and you know, having a very college experience and not a care in the world. And then my brother died and it turned my world completely upside down. It sent me into an existential crisis and I really had to look at why are we still here what my purpose wasn't what my meaning was. Yeah. And it took me several years I dropped out of school for a while, I really had to go deep into what my purpose was. And you know, at the end of that time, and I was working in retail at the end of that time, I decided okay, I want to go back to school and major in psychology and become a grief and loss person and and help people navigate the waters of grief and loss and find hope again, and really help siblings that's that's really my sweet spot but but I work with everybody. I have a private practice in New York City.

John Malanca 4:52
Yeah. You know, it's amazing on amazing how we have to reinvent our life and and You know, and I tell my children now sharing this, but one thing that I go out sharing with complete strangers is, I see a couple and I'll be on I've talked about this on my show before, but I'll, you know, I'm the avid, you know, glory, you and I are out here. And we have the beautiful mountains and hills. And so I go running out there and mountain biking or having a road bike and, you know, ride ride the streets around here, but I'll stop and I'll see couples and I'll say, Is this your wife? He looks me like, yes, my wife and I said, I just lost my wife to paint. and cherish this because life can be taken away from us in an instant. And next thing you know, they're crying, I'm crying on this trail, they say can we pray with you, we give you a hug. And then I go on my way, but it's, it's amazing on. Like you said, you had to reinvent yourself and and glory, you being your your Heidi, you saying to your mother, you know, there's nothing about siblings on here. And you know, there's a major Can

Unknown Speaker 6:01
I say one thing about something you just said, which I think is so important. Because you know, I lost my husband two months ago, you do something that I it that I can't tell you over the years, how important what you do is you tell people what you've lost, so that they can support you. So many people are quiet and silent. You run use law, you say, this is what I've lost. And when you do that, people are good.

Unknown Speaker 6:34
You get validation and acknowledgement, which is what we want after a loss. We know and they cry with you and they appreciate each other. And I agree with my mom, we need to teach people how to be good grief support sometimes,

John Malanca 6:45
you know, talking about it, I have you know, my my dad passed 12 years ago, this this Christmas Eve. I did a grief counseling with her. And it was nice. And it was through the church. It was actually my old principal sister, Joanne Claire, who just was awesome. But it was it was it was for spouses and widows. And I went, she said, Of course you'd come and I loved it. Because we broke the groups that 1212121212 ones go here to go this way, my mom got to it this way, I like to go this way. And I really she had to mourn her way and be strong as a as a wife and not be strong for her hug for her son. But and I was able to do that was my first experience of grief counseling and the benefits of grief counseling.

Unknown Speaker 7:36
You know, one of the things you're talking about those peer support. And we know that one of the things Heidi and I have found in our research and on our work with 1000s of people is the number one thing is peer support and at an inflammation. And those are the two things you get. So boy, anybody who's listening to this, you're a perfect example of what peer support can do. You know,

John Malanca 8:00
I am holding back tears because I still I don't know how strong I know how

Unknown Speaker 8:06
you miss her.

John Malanca 8:07
Oh my gosh, more more than you know. And

Unknown Speaker 8:11
well, she was your partner, right? In business also. business and

Unknown Speaker 8:19
you don't expect someone to die, you know,

John Malanca 8:21
gosh, you know, Heidi, she she, you know, we're the same age, you know, didn't drink didn't smoke worked out, stayed healthy, positive. And I've sat in on other pancreatic cancer called calling webinars, you know, so I really couldn't ask the question, you know, but it was with MD Anderson, Sloan Kettering, Johns Hopkins, all the main ones and they said here are the reasons why. So in passenger pancreatic cancer, obesity, no alcoholic, never drank heavy smoke, or smoke. No, no love high stress. And like, tell me something that makes sense. And so that's the part that I go through. And there's a stage of the grief and it's funny, I just came across this. And I'll share it before for our calls over maybe you guys can comment on this. But Chris and I with our company, we did a stage and I'll show you right now actually a stages of grief. And we did this in our healthy days helping others and even not knowing that it was us and I just came across this the other day. Loss hurt, shock, numbness, denial, I still do that she's still gonna walk. I really have an emotion OPERS maybe on my bike rides, but you know, crying, anger. I really haven't had fear. My friends are saying it's okay to have our anger. It's okay to be angry. Fear searching.

Unknown Speaker 9:41
You know where fear really comes in. Stop with that for a minute because I will tell you it's fear of having up parents are very, very fearful. They're terrified that they're going to lose another child terrified. So I think it depends on if fear comes and some people are afraid of their own death. But, you know, but there is some huge fear isn't there Heidi for some people?

Unknown Speaker 10:05
Absolutely. And I think early on, I mean, I know dad has been gone for two months. Like this morning, I woke up my daughter really suddenly and she assumed that something terrible had happened. You know, at the beginning, you'll keep waiting for somebody else to call and say that something's happened. It's they've died or something. So the fear of of it happening again to somebody, especially like you said, john, with your situation with our situation, it was sudden, and it was unexpected. They were in the prime, you know, prime of their lives with my father. He was he was in the hospital back surgery, but he died of a staph infection. So we certainly weren't expecting that either.

John Malanca 10:40
It it. You know, your mother gore and I were talking about this last week prior to prior to sharing, said, you know, love my husband, but losing a child. And do you get this Heidi as well as you Gloria? Nothing shocks me anymore. Like because I've I think I've been, I've seen it. It's like, you know, and I'm in the business of helping people and I and I still do it. And I still give people hope. I never give anybody false hope. And, but the love and the surrounding. I mean, the love from complete strangers, when they found out they couldn't pass was just, I just said, the human race has been wonderful, wonderful people. And you know what, three years later, I still have complete strangers, send me cards, pray for you this day. Or we have a mass set for today. I just thought. I mean, it's incredible. And the thing that's tough is a lot of people in my own circle. I haven't talked to since current past thing. That's a hard thing. You mean,

Unknown Speaker 11:41
because people can't handle it.

John Malanca 11:44
I think people just get busy.

Unknown Speaker 11:47
You know, some people are good Grievers. Some people aren't and you know, one of the things that you're going to have to decide as time goes on, when you feel you know, there's some research on a lot of research on widowhood. And one of the things is that about four years people, particularly people your age, start coming really out of it. Is it six months is the height of depression second years worse than the first because you're unfrozen by the fourth year, you really you really moving on, and then you have to decide whether you're going to welcome those people back into your life. Well, that's really not Grievers.

Unknown Speaker 12:28
Well, and I'll say I worked with 911. widows for 10 years, they had all they were all women, they lost firefighters in the World Trade Center, we did a longitudinal study. And what we found out with them, is that it took seven years to really embrace their new identity. because like you said, john, it's an identity loss.

Unknown Speaker 12:49
Oh, gosh, am I I'm

Unknown Speaker 12:50
not a married person. But I'm not a single person. But I'm too young to be a widowed person, you know, what I needed? Like,

Unknown Speaker 12:57
where do I fit in? Who am I now,

John Malanca 13:00
you, you've nailed it on the head. And I think that's why too, for me, COVID hasn't been that major of a catastrophe for me. And I know, it will upset a lot of people. But I was, you know, went from having a partner by my side the whole time. And by myself, now with COVID, working, you know, home office, and then every day, I get up, go for a ride around. And that's been my therapy, that's been my journey to take

Unknown Speaker 13:32
off in every day. But before we get, I don't want to lose this point for people who are listening to this and watching it. And that is I happen to be 81 years old. So having my spouse die, I believe is a little different for me, because it's, you know, we're older life ends, you know, there's a trajectory. So I it's a it's a different experience for me, because there's also a big community for me. There are a lot of widows around who I get together with who talk to me, I have a lot of appears support on another level. Whereas somebody your age in your listeners who are younger, you just I can go out the door in my neighborhood. Yeah. And meet up here. Yeah, and who's a little further down the road than me? And have them say, yeah, yeah. Somebody just I had somebody over the other day, and she said, keep busy. And everybody's got these little things for me. So I just wanted to say that to people that there you will hear different voices. And that's the beauty of the internet, podcast, whatever. You will hear my voice as a bereaved spouse, and then you'll hear John's voices and you know, you'll find different little goodies, y'all here Heidi is talk to, you know, interviewed a lot of people so I just wanted to say it's

John Malanca 14:53
not for you, right and like I said, it affects us all differently at all stages. Their life. You know, I thought everybody had the love of their life passed away. And I was in a grief, grief group. Both one on one. And if anybody's out there with hospice, hospice really saved me when I didn't save me. They offered, one of their offerings is I think 22 or 25, free grieving sessions, and that in your world is rocked and you just don't know what it's take advantage of it. And it could be for six years or six weeks, when you're whenever you're ready. I mean, I wasn't ready. Day two, I think I was ready. month four, something like that. People

Unknown Speaker 15:41
aren't ready for years.

John Malanca 15:43
And my mom's friend lives down your way. You know, she lost her husband 20 something years, she goes to my mom, she's Aggie and I still haven't done it. She like be have to do it, you have to do it. I

Unknown Speaker 15:53
mean, I know where you are. You both are, there's khara, which my mother is involved with, which is an amazing peer to peer support. And Mom, you're you're utilizing Kira and finding it easier.

Unknown Speaker 16:03
I love it. I meet with my counselor on the internet every Monday from 430 to 530. And I love it. And I, what I do is I during the week, when I cry, I jot it down. And then I say this is what happened. You know this and it. It's really kind of amazing. And I love it. I'm surprised I told today I love zoom, because it's kind of like the Wizard of Oz. I don't know. It's just there behind the screen. And he's lost his peer support. He's lost a child and a spouse. So they really matched me up in a way.

Unknown Speaker 16:43
That's great mom.

Unknown Speaker 16:44
That is

John Malanca 16:46
I want to get on to what you guys do. But I want to share this one's two story one, my counselor and I think I shared that with you, Gloria, when we spoke last week, you know, she stopped me for you that I don't talk about my clients. But she's I have to share this with you. And this is probably about five sessions. And she goes, you're the only patient client that I've had over the last 27 years that I think that comes to mind that has never spoken about regret, all you're talking about is love, love, love. And I just thought she said you need to realize that, you know, you need to realize how special that is. And a lot of those and then when I did the group counseling, I thought everyone lost the love of their life with their life or husband in their lap in their hand taking the last breath like I did. And it's not a lot of them are like your son. You know, Hi, honey, have a wonderful day, I love you. And then they get in a car action, or the spouse walks into the house and sees their husband or wife took their life. And I you know it that's one part of life I understand yet is just like, you know, it's how cherish we're here for such a short time cherish it and the friendships and the family and relationships. And so but anyway, I go I preach, I'm using this as my own counseling. So what do you ladies do with with our Do you specialize in in sibling loss? Heidi, is that what your specialty is your niche? Um,

Unknown Speaker 18:15
I see all kinds of all different losses. I mean, I think the sibling loss is probably the biggest one. But I agree parents, spouses, everything across the board.

John Malanca 18:27
I suppose because I shared this with Christian who was my grief counselor, I said did you go home and just leave it aside because you hear just people crying all day and sharing she it's tough sometimes, but it takes a special person. And so that's why I applaud you both for

Unknown Speaker 18:44
the weird part was when my father died. I had three I have three clients right now my practice, did have all had recent parent father ducks. Yeah. And I wasn't sure how I was going to work with them. But I've found I think my brother taught me how to compartmentalize his loss. And I've been with the minute that I get on with them on a telehealth call, I have my dad in a box and I put them in there and I don't even I just I don't really think about him. I'm with them and their story empathizing with them, and I don't I try not to go into my own story in my head. Because that would make me overly emotional may be confused. You know, so I don't do it. I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to work still with parent loss, but I'm fine. Thankfully, I can do it. So I've been seeing these people for a long time, you know, and I would hate to all of a sudden terminate. So uh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 19:36
You also get it in a different way too. I I will say that. If you are looking for therapy or if you are looking for somebody to work with you, make sure you're a good match for them. Because not everybody understands the world of grief loss and recovery and finding hope.

John Malanca 19:57
It when I met with The lady at Christian her name at hospice. I had my original original consultation with her before they wanted to let me out into the, in the in the group, because they wanted to see where I was, you know? You remember they asked me? Do you drink? No. Do you do drugs? No. Do you do that? I'm sad. Yeah. I'm sad. I'm not gonna take my life. I'm sad, my life. My wife. She's, uh, I guess we at the end of the day, she likes to what do you think? And I said, wonderful. She said, I appreciate your help. She goes, do you think we're a good match? Or do you want me to refresh? Your you're with me, we're doing this together. He was great. I really wanted to do this as well. So my first 2325 Sessions is a one on one with her, which really wasn't she was basically thrown in there to say, okay, is this guy stable enough to go into the group, but we hit it off? And I just thought, again, kirrin saying no, this is who I want you to be with and there was a could not have been a perfect match. And so you are right, make sure that person is with aligned with you, I should say,

Unknown Speaker 21:08
Okay. And some people aren't as forthcoming. And as you are, they wouldn't go head to head with their therapist, they would just sit back quietly and say, Okay, what time do I come and especially if they've really been hurt and damaged in it, you know, they're really what

John Malanca 21:28
I did, and I and he said, I applaud you because I use a plot a lot lately, I've been meeting some great people. So thank you for coming on. But what the first day I went in there, and again, it's your world is rocked, I walked in with our wedding, and photo albums. And I said, this is what we're talking about. That's beautiful. He's crying in the middle of love it, I

Unknown Speaker 21:50
would love it. If a client did that you brought her right into your world very quickly,

John Malanca 21:53
totally. So she knew Day One who we were talking about.

Unknown Speaker 22:00
Hey, you mentioned something about not being suicidal. I just wanted to say one thing about that since you brought up the suicide board. And that is sometimes people who don't understand. I would say therapy, just people in general grief and loss. I remember saying when my son died, I want to join him, you know, I want to join him. And people get a little bit mixed up with that being that I want to kill myself. No, I just want to join them. And I remember a man from that had been in the Holocaust that I talked to him once said, the pull of the grave is strong. And keeping your energy up early on, you know, you have to

Unknown Speaker 22:46
well, and that's why I mean, my mom and I both served on the board of the compassionate friends for many years, which is an organization for bereaved children, grandchildren, and siblings. And, you know, that's why when bereaved parents or anyone says, You know, I don't want to go on, we always say, you know, look for somebody, anyone in your life that's worth keeping you here and stay and try to stay for them.

John Malanca 23:10
It. I think we all have those thoughts, of course. And I shared that with my mom and B's name who lives down your way. You know, we, I mean, I've known her my whole life. And I remember going to dinner with him. He times I've gone to dinner with my mom's friends and we go, boy, common denominator. We're all widows.

Unknown Speaker 23:34
What's wrong with this picture?

Unknown Speaker 23:37
Yo, I will tell you where you need to go is spirits foundation.

John Malanca 23:45
What was it called?

Unknown Speaker 23:46
Sorry, spirits foundation. That's what I was thinking. And it's run by Michelle Neff. Hernandez. Okay, is the organization for younger widows and widowers. They have every you know, Michelle does all ages. But there's a big group of younger people your age, and they're fabulous. And they have the most fun workshops and they're really wonderful and COVID silver, but they've got a great online presence, but their conferences are dynamite.

John Malanca 24:17
Cool. I will definitely, uh, you know, because I'm ready to do it again. You know, I did this. I can't believe it's been three years for me just a blink of an eye. And you know, how to show you how again, how short Our time is you're on this earth, you know, cherish every moment. So you ladies, you both work your bi coastal business partners. So you had to have done video calls before all this COVID stuff. I know you said Gloria, this is all new to you. But how do you how do you guys work your business or how do you reconcile on phone with each other?

Unknown Speaker 24:50
We're actually do video every Monday. But

Unknown Speaker 24:55
before COVID

Unknown Speaker 24:56
Oh, before COVID we were doing it.

John Malanca 24:58
Oh you brought up a good video.

Unknown Speaker 25:00
Report. We've been doing podcasts for over 15 years. They used to be called radio shows. So we do those online. And then my mom actually does have a place in New York City, which she's not telling you about. So she does we do do television shows, we're on Sunday nights on on television in all five boroughs in New York. She will come back maybe every I don't know, every other month or so. And we'll film a lot of shows when she's in town. Perfect.

John Malanca 25:27
Well, good. So talk about let's talk about your podcast, talk about what you know what your business is about how people find you. And you know, what, what are the steps if someone is going through? Is it always with a grief of, of a loss of a person? That you're going to agenda? Yes,

Unknown Speaker 25:47
yes. And it's a death. We don't do divorce or other types of losses. It's an actual dance that we deal with,

John Malanca 25:55
to talk about your podcast. What do you what do you what do you do in your podcast? I like sharing other other podcasts out there as well.

Unknown Speaker 26:01
We, the people that we have on, there are many, many people who have found hope after loss and done things like some of the people we've had on, are they the founder of Mothers Against Drunk Driving? You know, I've just lost her name. Heidi. What's her name? Candace? Candace lightner. Okay, so Candace is an example of somebody that we have on Candace, one, like a week after her daughter was killed, started MADD, Mothers Against Drunk Driving. So not everyone does have that high level. But a lot of people have done books, they do television, they do movies, anybody who's had any kind of loss we have on because they're exemplifiers of what you can do and look at you, I mean, things that you can do with your life to support other people. But some things are small. And we say this to people, you know, maybe helping a neighbor, who's had a loss, just reaching out at a store like Chris, my neighbor, and helping people and volunteering and that kind of thing. So those are kind of the people we have, we have big name people, and then we have people who are just helping their neighbor. Right?

Unknown Speaker 27:16
Absolutely. But I think one of the things that's very important for us is that we want to interview people that have had the losses, and have found hope, because sometimes you haven't found hope yet. And so we don't want those people on our show yet. So john, you're someone that although you still grieve Kranz death, and you still miss her, there's also a very big a very hopeful piece to your life, and you know, a positive or that you're giving out. So that's the message we want. Because people that are watching us don't know how they're going to survive, or even if they want to, they need to hold on to people further down the road, or people that have found hope, like us, so that they can figure out how they're going to get up tomorrow. And

John Malanca 27:59
that's the one thing talking about getting up tomorrow. That's the one thing from day one, I made myself get up. And I go for, get on my bike, go for a ride up in the mountains, listen to it and just cry. But I did it every day. And that was that was that was that was my therapy, or you mentioned about neighbors and you know, like Chris coming over and just checking in on you. And that has has affected him. It really has and he lost john his brother, right? A year ago as well. And he just, you know, that's again, someone who didn't drink and smoke and I've worked with you know, his brother john, his wife, Janelle. I think six past six years is when when john was diagnosed, I had a place in Montana and the phone rang. It was Chris, I've known Chris my whole life. And I'm an emotional guy. I was emotional. And Bill Walsh retired for the 49. Waiting, what's wrong, what's wrong? You know, and him sharing that and opening up. But a lot of people, you get this as innate, like a neighbor, I don't know what to say to them. And I say, Tell them you're just thinking about them.

Unknown Speaker 29:09
All you have to do with your neighbors wave tone wave. How about the people who turn the other way in the grocery store? or run the other way? I mean, all you have to do is wave.

John Malanca 29:22
And just thinking that I have I still have friends that I've never met. And they said we watched your love story blossom on the internet. And because Chris was always big on posting our life and, and, and I've never met these people and they and they've text me or written me an email and say, Hey, just thinking about you and created a new one. Make sure you're okay. And I just had had had the lady do that on Saturday and again, I had never met her. And I just thought Thank you. It means so much that you know that people were thinking and like you said he just

Unknown Speaker 29:58
you know what one of the Other things, we do tips and tools and all that kind of stuff. You should put your chart back up because I liked it. I didn't mean to enter. No, I didn't know I don't think it does it the end of it, you're getting towards what Heidi and I do, which is to not look, I mean, look at the stuff you're talking about now. Like, we're very strength based. So you know, coming around. That's, that's a really kind of cool thing.

Unknown Speaker 30:23
I liked it. I liked it that john put new strengths. Yeah. And new patterns, because we do we learn new strengths that we maybe have never used or didn't know we had.

John Malanca 30:34
Mm hmm. You know, and this, this is something that crin makran, I made, I want to say seven years ago when, you know, we could have run the Olympics. I mean, meaning health wise, you know, we're healthy, healthy, healthy people. And we worked with so many people that that were in the business of illness. And you know, so he did this. Just trying to help people. And now I and I just I kid you not, I just stumbled on this in my old files the other day.

Unknown Speaker 31:04
It's cool, because I love your new striped suit patterns. Oh, I love that. You know, we called our organization open to hope we spent a lot of time working on that name. And the reason we did is because we're not saying you got to be helpful, you got to be hopeful. Look how far around you've got your hope, Oh, look at that thing or is swinging all the way around? You know? So we're just saying be open to hope. Yeah. Just open your, you know, open that there could be hope again. I mean, that's how desperate we feel.

John Malanca 31:39
It's, you know, reentry. But new relationships. I mean, it that's the part I was talking about that I don't get, it's like God we have we've had our dearest dearest and closest friends. That kind of just poof do away with crin passing into blows my mind. I mean, we have friends that we were going to do a three week trip with that haven't spoken to that since the day for passing me the day after the funeral.

Unknown Speaker 32:06
You know, that's not unusual. And it's really tough on teenagers and kids when that is not highly when you're 20. You know, people want you to be fun at parties.

Unknown Speaker 32:16
Right? They want the old Heidi back and you're trying to deal with the grief and they can't deal with it. Also, I think it's scary for couples when you incrementals and crin dies. And they're like, Oh my gosh, what if that happened to us? They I know for my friends that had never had sibling loss, they almost feel like it's contagious or something. You know, it's like no, it's not just because it happened to me, doesn't mean it's gonna happen to you.

John Malanca 32:39
But you are right, like you're talking about your daughter this morning. You know? I feel that it's like, Okay. Are these people gonna die? You know, and you go through that mindset? I don't want to get attached to someone else.

Unknown Speaker 32:54
I don't like them.

John Malanca 32:56
Yeah, you know, and so but. But another good thing I have had, I've had strangers as well as friends saying, seeing what you and your wife went through has brought us closer together as a couple. And I want to thank you. And you know, we, you know, we thank you. Here's a book that I always

Unknown Speaker 33:16
that's, that's my thought when you when you approach people on your bike and see them and say, you know, I lost my wife, you know, I'm so glad you love each other. I think they need to take inventory of their own relationship and say, Wow, we are lucky to still have each other and maybe it strengthens them.

John Malanca 33:31
I've had one person one cup of Look at me. It was like I don't know what they're on their own little world. They looked at me like we're not in love with each other

Unknown Speaker 33:48
thing. Everybody that loses someone doesn't necessarily lose a loved one.

Unknown Speaker 33:52
family member doesn't mean they're a loved one.

John Malanca 33:54
Yeah. Here's a book. How you familiar with this book?

Unknown Speaker 33:59
Yeah. Louise Hay.

Unknown Speaker 34:01
Yeah, of course. And I've read that book.

John Malanca 34:04
Oh, I would read this ticker in four times a day. And she said she just couldn't calm and peace. And so anybody go into this. It's a great book. It was given to me and current. Louise Hay heal your body. As you can see, it's about a quarter.

Unknown Speaker 34:21
One called you can heal your life or something like that.

John Malanca 34:23
Yeah, she has a whole a whole series of books. And she passed, I think workprint rent for a month. You know, and so but that was our Bible.

Unknown Speaker 34:36
Amazing. I saw her in New York City live at the Javits Center, and she said she was 82. And she came on and said, this is going to be the best decade of my life. I loved it. I love her optimism. And you know, she worked with AIDS patients and changed their lives. Hay House publishing is a place to go there are so many amazing people on that site, and great resources and it's very optimistic, which I love.

Unknown Speaker 35:01
Got a read real men do cry. Yes, that's the

John Malanca 35:06
real men do cry. I don't have a problem with that.

Unknown Speaker 35:11
Heidi and I wrote with Eric couple who was a quarterback for the Detroit Lions. Uh huh.

Unknown Speaker 35:17
It's his story about going from a very dark place back into the light after his 15 year old son dies by suicide. He talks about men and the messages you're given as men walk it off, suck it up. Real men don't cry. big boys don't cry. You know. So he talks about tips and tools and things that have helped him. And it's it's very, he's very inspiring. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 35:39
And you would have loved it. Because we got to go to spring training with him. It

John Malanca 35:42
was good.

Unknown Speaker 35:46
He was the quarterback for what? 15 years. Back in the day.

John Malanca 35:51
Did he have other children because I have one of my best friends in Montana. He lost his son, Kashi at age four. And they have four children. Kashi was when you said the brain children's brain tumor. That's it he had. Oh, wow. And so he beat it twice. You live in Montana, and four years old. He said no more pokes no more pokes, he was too tired to go into the hospital. heartbreaking. They continue on. A lot of families split up after that a lot of families.

Unknown Speaker 36:26
People don't get divorced after a loss. That's a myth. Is it a myth? Okay, good. Absolutely no research that shows that. And it really scares people. And it's in books. And it's in books that good people wrote, and there's absolutely no valid research showing that people get divorced or families. The

Unknown Speaker 36:47
divorce rate isn't any higher than it is in the regular population.

John Malanca 36:51
I have to share this and that's Mike and his beautiful family. Kashi there. And that's that picture, but they keep Kashi alive.

Unknown Speaker 37:01
Did she die? He or she?

John Malanca 37:04
He passed in? In 2012. And right after that they had their fourth child rebel,

Unknown Speaker 37:14
they call that a rainbow baby. A rainbow baby.

John Malanca 37:16
Yeah, no it and they see a loss. And she is definitely channeling little Rep. We call rabbies. The rebel

Unknown Speaker 37:25
I love her name. Her name is rebel.

John Malanca 37:29
They're they're in Montana. And they're true Montanans with just a heart of gold. And he's like, my little brother, and he and his wife were our best friends up, you know,

Unknown Speaker 37:41
my way, we'll have him on our show.

John Malanca 37:42
Definitely. You know what, and he's in. He is someone that talks about hope, and what he's done. And I talked to him yesterday, and he just changed his whole life. He said, I'm going to get into real estate, it's okay. And, you know, he's with Keller Williams, he's one of the number one and he does it the way he does, it is the Montana living style. And I'll show you I know, the back country, I know the schools, I know the communities, right? He has that niche, like you both have that. And, but he's an incredible husband and an incredible father and an incredible friend. But someone who came out of this and said, You know what?

Unknown Speaker 38:21
There is there is life after loss.

John Malanca 38:23
There is like a date. And you're talking about glory about four years. And so I'm at the three year mark, what happens at four years, and I know everyone's different.

Unknown Speaker 38:32
It just Well, if you look at the research, it's just that people are now then moving on to their new life. They've integrated it into it.

Unknown Speaker 38:42
I think you're right, mom, they've integrated the loss in their life. I mean, it's you know, we continue bonds, we don't sever relationships, and you know, this you don't have a relationship with with CRAN. But, but you integrate her into your life in a new and different way and you invest in new relationships.

Unknown Speaker 38:59
And the other thing you are doing now, since you lost her, you are beginning your new history. You know, so it takes time for us to rebuild a new history,

Unknown Speaker 39:11
memories, memories that were raised with Keira. deter your new life.

John Malanca 39:17
Yeah. around the house. It's a shrine of Qur'an in our life. And you know, and it's tough for others because everyone says, Hey, she doesn't want you to be happy. She wants you to move on. Like, no kidding, you know, but I'm not ready to do that yet.

Unknown Speaker 39:31
Right? JOHN? You know what I say to people that say cryin, want you to be happy? I say, my head knows that. Yeah. Intellectually. I know that but my heart isn't doesn't know isn't ready for that yet. So there's that, you know, of course, you'd want you to be happy and your dear dear moving in that direction.

Unknown Speaker 39:48
Yeah, Yes, you are. Indeed.

John Malanca 39:50
You know, I think everyone needs a hug and never, you know, but there's times it's like, you know, COVID I tell others like, boy, probably the worst time of the The world to beat up singles drink COVID is like, I'm already a germaphobe as it is especially you both getting on a plane 40

Unknown Speaker 40:08
soaring spirits. They've got a lot going on online.

John Malanca 40:12
Definitely, definitely so. So what can you share? And I get I appreciate you you coming on on the show as well. But what can you share for anybody that that has a loss? You know, right away or a loss six months ago or a year ago or further, what can you share for those that are going through this?

Unknown Speaker 40:33
I guess right now, it's been really hard. It's been a lot harder for me to have not had my dad here than I thought it was going to be. It's been really a challenge for me during the holidays. Yeah. And what I keep doing, and I have a lot of breakdowns, it's been really difficult.

John Malanca 40:49
I keep I know, you're human as well. So therapists do break down as well.

Unknown Speaker 40:53
Absolutely. And I think what I keep going back to is what would he say to me right now, if he was here? What advice would he give me? What would he want me to know? And I keep going back on all the things he taught me growing up, about, you know, and I and I know and I always say, that's my mom. And always my mom. And I always say this, he'd want me to be open to help again. And so I keep going back to that, but I definitely it's been hard. It's definitely been hard. You know, holidays are a hard time.

John Malanca 41:21
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Anyway, even on the healthy times,

Unknown Speaker 41:25
right, exactly. You've got COVID so all you've got is you're here with your thoughts, right?

John Malanca 41:30
A lot of those two I would say it can put a chip in my head in me even even in our healthy days. My mind never stop. Glory. I was an ask you. Yeah, but a year ago, I took my wedding ring off. Ah, and that felt that was tough. And I started wearing it on my other hand, and I was like, Oh my god, where is it? And I realized over here in about one day, I was rushing out of house and I grabbed it. And I was driving and I put it on my wedding my on my left hand and I just felt oh my god it was you know, strange. I didn't know which way I don't wear it now but my mom still wears hers and I'm certain you know, my it's funny all the women in my my life I should women I both my grandparents. And my mom, you know, my both my grandmother's outlive their husbands my grandfather's 20 something years but you know, they never dated. They ever took off their wedding ring, you know, and so do you. We got

Unknown Speaker 42:26
Well, I could show you I have a ring and this is what happened to me. My This is not a wedding ring. Yeah. My husband gave me this ring for my birthday when he was in the hospital. It's a lovely car da Leppard and it's not my wedding ring. And my daughter across the street Heidi sister.

John Malanca 42:54
Are you have three or two other siblings? Correct?

Unknown Speaker 42:58
Yeah. And 10 grandkids. My daughter across the street was robbed. And they about what a month ago Heidi come and they stole all her jewelry. They came in to the back window and took all of her jewelry and she had her diamond wedding ring there. And I left because I've been wearing this ring. Because this is the last thing my husband gave me and it's not a wedding ring. And so I gave her my diamond. And it was so great because I have three other daughters and how would I ever decide who to give it to? But the girls could handle it because she was robbed right Heidi?

Unknown Speaker 43:42
I've heard of it's great. I would have been able to handle

John Malanca 43:45
it when she was telling that story.

Unknown Speaker 43:48
I don't care about that. I thought it was great that she did it. I love that that yeah.

Unknown Speaker 43:53
So it was a perfect way to give up my diamond wedding ring. And another thing that has happened to me recently is that I play a lot of golf and I belong to a club and you know at the club there and other places they call you Mrs. Horsley and they have to call you that's the protocol. And so I have a doctorate so I have asked them all to call me Dr. Horsley

John Malanca 44:17
and I called you horribly I'm sorry ladies you come on you got to stop you're gonna correct me I'm Malanca people call Malanca and I say so.

Unknown Speaker 44:25
Anyways, so I am asked me people wherever I go to call me Dr. Horsley where they have to call me Mrs. Because I'm not Mrs. Horsell anymore. There's no Mr. Horsley. So that's how I reclaim reclaiming who I am. And I have to say you ask what advice this man who was I get advice every week because we do podcasts. And people give me great advice and we had an ex marine on whose wife died and he's been raising his two kids. Then he says keep on keeping on, you know,

Unknown Speaker 45:04
and and I was gonna say mom we just we have so many tips and tools I think john one thing that was so key which is in line with keep on keepin on as you get on your bike and you ride it out and and you know trauma and grief gets trapped in our bodies. We need to move them physically we need to walk we need to run we need to bike we need to hike, we need to keep moving. Yeah. And that is really, really key after a loss. I think what was

Unknown Speaker 45:27
our men's group he was on I forgot the name of the men's organization. With herb No, yeah. Herb No. And it's called. It's only for men. So make sure to get a hold of her know, look at him online, not only and they have

Unknown Speaker 45:47
no W.

Unknown Speaker 45:49
Okay, and o l l.

John Malanca 45:51
Okay. Okay, but K and q, k, o and P. and Elena

Unknown Speaker 45:55
called, oh my gosh, I can't believe I can't find it right now. But it's for men only. And that if you listen to our show, it's not gonna be on for a little while, but the guy who was on his name panty, and it was a great show. And he was a marine raising his kids alone. And he just like, keep on keepin on. And he's a young widow. Like you, john, you guys hit it off. Actually. Yeah, you would you have a lot of similarities.

John Malanca 46:20
Good. Good. So how can people find you and let's I want you to plug what you're doing your show your podcast, our books, right?

Unknown Speaker 46:31
Find us at open to we're on Apple podcasts. Okay. But you if you come to our site, you'll see we have over 400 people that write wonderful articles for us. We have radio shows, we have TV shows we have YouTube's just tons of information for you there where you can maybe find your little niche. Hi, do you got a comment about where we are?

Unknown Speaker 47:00
I think that's it all all the Sunday night television shows that we do. We we record. They are on our site open to for those that don't live in New York so you can watch them anytime you want. We also have a search engine. So you can go in and say okay, I am searching for I'm a I'm a widow, and my wife You know I'm searching for anything that deals with being a widow. And that'll bring that will do a pull down with all the articles the podcast and the show is right there for you.

John Malanca 47:28
Do you have a wide variety of teammates on there as well I saw your site.

Unknown Speaker 47:35
And we our tagline is always this if you've lost hope please lean on ours until you find your own and come and visit us at open to help.

John Malanca 47:43
Beautiful. We'll leave it at that. Ladies, Dr. Horsley Doctor.

Unknown Speaker 47:51

Unknown Speaker 47:52
Doctor, doctor.

John Malanca 47:55
Have a wonderful trip. I won't share where you're going but I hope you find your they find your golf clubs. Heidi.

Unknown Speaker 48:04
Thank you, john. I had COVID back in March. So I'm clear and have the antibodies which is a beautiful thing. Glad we have the vaccine, wishing everybody a happy healthy 2021.

John Malanca 48:16
And then what a year what a year. So blessings you both you and and Dr. Gloria, thinking about you and your husband as well as Heidi and your dad and And what was your son's name grower? Well, it Scott. So anyway, anybody going through anything tough and rough and need a little hope. Dr. Horsley and Dr. Horsley are available. And thank you ladies and thank you again. John Malanca with United patients group being formed and be well and we'll see you soon. Thanks again. Bye bye.