the Way of the Showman
Philosophical and esoteric perspectives from a modern day Showman.
Each season is different in its approach. S1 is essays. S2 is one book length attempt at Understanding Showmanship, S3 is conversations with remarkable Showfolk. The brand new Season 4 explores the relationship between Showmanship and Play.
The host, Captain Frodo, internationally renowned circus performer, director, writer, husband and dad lays out, in great detail, his practical performance philosophy for performers who seek to deepen the conversation with their audiences and themselves. You can find him, and more of his writing at: www.thewayoftheshowman.com
the Way of the Showman
150 - Antje Pode: Kicking Suitcases & other Acts of Innovation
Ever wondered what happens when a circus performer's act goes "wrong"? In this intimate conversation with East German circus artist Antje Pode, we explore how the most powerful moments of connection often emerge from embracing unexpected challenges on stage.
Ancha shares her extraordinary journey through the fall of the Berlin Wall – a time when her entire professional identity was upended as state-sponsored circus dissolved overnight. We explore the magnificent marble circus buildings of the Soviet Union, where performers were celebrated like opera stars, receiving flowers from adoring audiences. Her transition from government employee to freelancer reveals the profound personal impact of political change that went far beyond headlines.
The heart of our conversation centers on Ancha's accidental creation of a revolutionary aerial apparatus. What began as an attempt to make a standard rope less painful led to a breakthrough when she deconstructed it into 86 separate strings. The resulting visual effect creates mesmerizing patterns like tornados or water vortices as she performs. But this innovation comes with inherent unpredictability – strings occasionally tangle, creating unexpected challenges during performance.
What started as frustration evolved into profound insight: audiences engage more deeply when witnessing performers overcome obstacles. As we discuss, "Your true character can really come out when you're facing a problem." In an age of digital perfection, witnessing a performer struggle and triumph creates a uniquely human experience that no flawless execution can match.
Whether you're a performer yourself or simply fascinated by the human capacity for adaptation and creativity, this conversation offers valuable perspective on finding opportunity in apparent setbacks. Subscribe to the podcast to join us for more explorations of showmanship across disciplines and traditions.
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Greetings, fellow travelers and welcome to the way of the showman, where we view the world through the lens of showmanship. I am Captain Frodo and I will be your host and your guide along the way, and today we're diving back into the second part of the conversation that I had on my birthday earlier this year in March. So it's been ages coming to get this out, but this is the second episode and I'm so excited to bring you this and I really love the stories and the wonderful imagery that Anca can paint. What an amazing life and so wonderful also to be in a show together with somebody who is, you know, my own age or even a little older, to be the old guard, not be the new and fresh and happening thing, but be the people who were there and have paid our dues and done all this amazing stuff, and then to be put together like we were earlier by Paul Debeck in his fabulous show, the London Calling show. It's such a great time we had and so great for me to get to share accommodation together with Antje and our conversations, always rich and exciting, and I captured two conversations, one last weekend and this one on the same day, thinking this will just get it started and then we can get into the real nitty-gritty. But of course, as things happens, during Festival life and shows takes over.
Speaker 1:So anyway, if you want to support what I do here on this podcast, because it is all done by me, then you would do me the greatest favor if you could subscribe to the podcast. I would love to get more subscriptions and you could be there. It's free of charge and you know, if you're feeling generous, take five minutes, click on iTunes or whatever your podcast downloader is, and write a review, leave a five-star thing, just click five stars. It's really easy and it means a whole lot for me and maybe more people like yourself will find it in the algorithm because yours truly, myself, I'm not doing a good enough job. So, all right, let's um enough of all of this and let's get cracking into the second part of my conversation with the ever wonderful ancha poda. So the wall has just come down, yeah, and you had been working in Moldavia and you came home again, but you had an apartment and you had, or did you live?
Speaker 2:In this time I really I just had a room in a winter base from the, from this circus, because I was eight months, sometimes 10 months, away from home and I was not really based in in Berlin, just in in winter when the circus was in the in a winter base. After, when I came home, the first what I did I visited my parents and my brother and sisters.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it was a little bit like coming home and everything changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, confusing time, I guess I think it was for all the East German people.
Speaker 2:It was a happy time and in the beginning it was very exciting, but then it was also. Everything changed, really everything in your life changed. Most people lost the job. You have to understand a completely different system and I think sometimes the people in West Germany didn't understand what it means for the people in East Germany, that your whole. What is it? The opposite from the future.
Speaker 2:The past, the whole past. What you did, it was sometimes the people thinking, oh, it was nothing, but it was your life, it was really your life and it seems a little bit take it away and now you have to take another life. I mean, it was great and we were all happy about this, but the part of this was really no, I still have my history, your identity and you can't take it away. It is still my identity and now it doesn't seem.
Speaker 1:it is nothing, it can't be and yeah, yeah I think there's certainly a kind of nostalgia too, because it had its things that were not good, but that didn't mean that it was all bad, yeah exactly it was like for us who are circus performers now, who just chase the next contract and will I have enough money?
Speaker 1:and there is no pension, and all this to be in a system where also to be in the system, or in a country or in a union where, as you said in the last conversation, you have ballet on the top and then circus.
Speaker 1:It was in russian in germany it was not so much, but in Russia it was, but in Russia, yeah, and then ballet, and maybe then after. This is like opera and theater and everything, which is amazing that they place physical skill right there at the top, because ballet and circus is like ballet is an art form the dancing and I guess at this point there was probably not much modern dance in- no, it was.
Speaker 1:Maybe it was yeah yeah, so so you have these physical things first, and then the acting and the opera, singing and and that that. This was below it. This is very, very interesting. And then this comes where you're like in Germany maybe it was a little bit different, which is maybe why also you have all the big circus buildings, because it was in a circus building also in Moldavia.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that had been long enough in the Union that the Russian identity of circus had been taken to Moldavia, and they built the building there too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know exactly when, but the building was really spectacular. Actually, in Moldavia it was with marble, everywhere it was really marble, everywhere Marble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, it was a really nice, nice building.
Speaker 2:To work in a building like this, it was like in a I mean now maybe in an opera when you are working in a nice theater here or in an opera here.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting. Interesting, isn't it? Because now I'm like it sounds, imagine that that they build the, because they always have in every country they have like the national opera or the state opera. They have the, the ballet building, and they go. It's important we have our own things and of course it is because when it's purpose-built specifically for this art form, it's not the same needs of opera as there is of circus or so, but all circuses have similar needs and similar. So then to have a venue which is built and you say it's like it's a circle.
Speaker 2:It is really. It is just built for the circles. It's for you. Can't use a theater like this because, it was really a circle and the manege and next to this manege was the other manege just for the rehearsal. It was so specific for circus that maybe sometimes there was other shows in the circus, but the most time anywhere there's a circus it was seven or six days per week when we are working.
Speaker 1:But it's the, the, the architecture which then would be that there would be built circus buildings all around and then, like you say here, it was marble and big steps to walk up to go into where you sit, which means probably that all the railings was out of the nice dark wood and this kind of stuff. So it's like what we imagine with the opera or with the finest theatres, and nowadays you think what it's like this for circus, because circus always now is like, oh, they travel around and maybe a few circuses are kind of famous for their beautiful details, but a lot of the time because you have to take everything down, put it on the truck, put it back out the next day. It's always a little bit worn and a little bit lower standard. I have to say.
Speaker 2:We have in Germany Circus Krone in Munich, but these are famous for this. Yeah, but they have a building and I think we also had before the second war. We had in Leipzig we had a building, a circus building, and I think Magdeburg also, but I don't know exactly. But we had before some buildings, but not like these buildings in Moldavia, in Russia. I was in Moldavia. I was in Sochi, Rostov Kishore Woods, but this was just before where I have been. I think they had 21 circus buildings in Russia.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, this is amazing. So, in the confusion, once you're there and the wall has come down and a new world has opened up, what was it like to transition from being a government employee basically with the circus to being a freelancer? What did you do after?
Speaker 2:After the wall fell down, after the Germans came together on the 3rd of October 1990, the circus was closed, complete, and then I studied physiotherapy for three years and I worked in a physiotherapy practice for one year and then I came back on stage. I mean, at this time I already create this suitcase act, or start to create this suitcase act, but I really I had a gap from four years where I'm not very often performing, and it was good for me to have this four years, just to understand the system. And, yeah, to be a freelancer it means you have to understand how it works.
Speaker 1:yeah, otherwise, um, and how to charge money and all this kind of stuff, which previously was just you did your tricks and you had enough to live, kind of. But it wasn't yeah, it's a whole different thing yeah did you stay living on the west side from Berlin?
Speaker 2:but it was just because I could find an apartment there. It was not the reason to go to the other side, because actually in Berlin the most people want to live in East Berlin, because sometimes the apartments was bigger maybe, was not so nice, but was much cheaper. And if you're thinking about the old center of Berlin it was in East Berlin. I mean really the center of Berlin.
Speaker 1:Used to be on the east.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's still, it's now. It's back in the part of East Berlin. It is not a lot of people know the Kudamm. It was in the past it was in West Berlin, the center, but now it is back where all the museum, theater, it was every, every big museum was in East East Berlin. I mean the, the opera and also the museum. Um, they're all in East Berlin that's amazing.
Speaker 1:And then when you started to work, where did you begin to work after that? In circus, I mean, because you did physiotherapy, yeah, in this time, in 1995, in Germany it start.
Speaker 2:What is it? It came there's a variety theatre like the cabaret in other countries. It came back to Germany that a lot of variety theatre opened the doors and it was for me it was perfect, the perfect time to come back on stage, because in this time I could work for one month in in the gop, hannover or in berlin, open some variety theater, and was a perfect time to come back on stage yeah, that's a yeah it's.
Speaker 1:It's an amazing kind of transition. What was it like? Like the difference of working because working on one side or in Russia and then working in the. You know, it's like working in a different world or like something.
Speaker 2:I have to say I worked before the wall fell down. I already worked in West Berlin and I also worked in West Germany and I worked in Cuba and Nicaragua. I was already outside of this country. Sometimes, yeah, it was not so different. But just when the world came down to know that you can go to Paris, to London, to New York if you wanted, you can do it. I think it is something what people when you never was in this situation, you can't really understand what it means.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I'm finding it hard to. I'm trying to picture or come up with some when I try to ask a question about it. It's hard to sort of go because it is the same world. But it's also interesting that you go. We have been to Cuba or Nicaragua and those are already strange places in a way to go on tour in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Not really so strange, it was one month. But yes, Cuba and Nicaragua. They were much closer to Russian than to American or something like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so interesting.
Speaker 2:Also, I have to say, to be in Russian. I was two times eight months in Russian. Now I'm really really happy and appreciating this that I could see this country.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And also in this time when it was a Soviet Union, I think it was very special. And also to meet the Russian people. They are so kind. I mean, in this time I met people on the street and they realized, oh, I have seen you in the circus and would you like to come for a tea. And it was really, you was a little bit the star, and they bring um when you finished your act, the, the people bring flowers in in the um, in the manish, and you, really you, you came out from the, from your, you worked, and then you have to a lot of flowers with you and sometimes you didn't know where you can put the flowers anymore Because you have a tiny room. Yeah, but just this kind of appreciating that they bring, they really bring flowers to the circus in a tent, I mean in a tent, and then in the end of your act, they, they running and hold the flowers in your direction that you take it so the children or adults kind of have, have the men if they like.
Speaker 1:Maybe they have one for everybody or they have they come and give. Oh, this was very good, I will give our hero whatever yes, but this is a is a wonderful.
Speaker 2:It is something like when you see the ice skating the world championships. Sometimes you also can see that they collect the flowers. In Russian, it was really for the circles.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting. We don't have anything like that anymore. It's clapping and then that's it, maybe standing at the end.
Speaker 2:sometimes they stand, which is a special sort of sign of I, I don't know, uh, in a, in an opera, is it still that the people I don't know maybe like I. I know the image, but I don't know if this is from the movies exactly.
Speaker 1:I don't know yeah, and we all know that. Back in the day at the theater or whatever. Also, if they didn't like it, they threw rotten tomatoes.
Speaker 2:Tomatoes, yeah, or eggs, yeah yeah, yeah, maybe we are happy like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, maybe not having stuff thrown on you, whether it's good or bad, because you don't know what it is? No, it could be anything. Yeah, it's a scary thing. You don't know what it is. No, it could be anything. Yeah, it's a scary thing. Well, we were talking earlier because you have a second act, and this was interesting because it's a very unusual apparatus and maybe we should talk a little bit about this.
Speaker 2:I have an aerial act and it is a rope. It is a special rope because it is 86 little strings. Really, the strings are 5 millimeters and they are together. But I can open this and I can make two ropes and can do something. And it was when I create this rope. It was. I think it was a little bit luck to to have this idea, because I I I want to beginning with with a rope act and then I bought a rope. It was cheap, was not very nice and it was very, very hard and I start rehearsing and it was so painful. And then, maybe one year later, I met a woman from Hungary and I said oh, this rope, I hate this rope. It is so hard and it's so painful. And then she explained me in Hungarian they open a rope like this that you have the little strings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all ropes are made of intertwined ropes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you open this and then you put a cover around that it is still together.
Speaker 1:But this can be a little softer. The cover that goes on the outside can be a little bit softer material.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it is not so hard on your skin and legs. And then I open my rope and in this time I was not at home and I couldn't put a cover around and then I start.
Speaker 1:So you took the cover off the rope you had no, my rope was no cover.
Speaker 2:The rope was the strings, and the strings was.
Speaker 1:Wound together. Yes, like a normal rope.
Speaker 2:And when you open this and you have the strings just hanging down and then I start with this rope, I start to rehearsal because I couldn't put the cover on no no, no, you didn't make one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't make one.
Speaker 2:And then I start to rehearse it and then, oh, it looks very nice. And then I never put something around. And then I had my new special rope.
Speaker 1:So was this already with the 86 bits, or did you it?
Speaker 2:was no, it was after the walls fell down. It was in 1998 or 9.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I didn't mean the year.
Speaker 2:I meant with the 8, you said there was 86 of the rope no no it was later on, when I realized it is a great idea to performing on a rope like this, then I bought just strings on a roll and I cut it really in a double size that I need, and then I made this rope by myself later on and then. I with the 85 strings I just found out. Okay, when I grab it, it is a good thickness yes to.
Speaker 1:And then when you then are climbing on something which has 86 different strands, you then you squeeze it and lift your hand. It means that it moves completely differently and it also sometimes splits up, so you get all the shapes of of of it and I've seen pictures, and when you swirl it around, it's almost like you see when you see ink in water sometimes, where you get this, yes, spiral, yes, uh, fractal kind of images and yes, it is something what I can do in the beginning of the act I really can.
Speaker 2:When I when I turning faster, then I really can open this rope. After a while on the rope, I mean really just maybe three minutes on the rope. It's came a little bit more together and that's. There's some knots in and twisted together.
Speaker 2:Yes, and and sometimes also it is there's a rope is not perfect to work. It looks nice and it looks interesting, but you really have to be careful that when you bring your legs up, that really all the strings, you take all the strings with you, because when you have one, when you missed one, it could be that this one is around your legs and make a knot and then you're done.
Speaker 2:You can't escape from this yeah, yeah in the beginning it was really um, I mean, it was a little bit dangerous, but it more was more scared. It's scary, yeah yeah and in the beginning I really I took a little scissor with me on my rope in the little pocket, because I never know when it's happened and it's still now. I yes, I have my whole rope in my visual.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in your peripheral vision, yes, and yeah, it doesn't happen so often anymore and I very often I can see it and then I have to come down see the sign before it happens. Yeah, but in the beginning it was so often that I haven't seen it. And it is also a process what you learn, but you don't know exactly how you do this, but you learn it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but the interesting thing so you say it's like, oh, it was luck. And then I was saying there's this, uh, saying that says the harder you work, the luckier you get. Yeah, so that it's like if you don't put any effort in at all, then it's it's very hard to be lucky, but that you actually you create possibilities or that affords you lucky openings, yes, and that you had already worked, like you said, just one year or so, like maybe not every day or so, but you had been, you'd been studying the rope and working with it and then an opportunity came when the woman says, oh, you split it up like this and then you can cover it with, instead of thicker ropes being wound together, and you said that it's sort of like plasticky the rope, not cotton or whatever so it was a little
Speaker 1:more, uh, hard, which, of course, like that's one of the things with aerials that you, if you don't do aerials, maybe you've not tried to hang on a rope, but it's like beautiful lady hanging on the rope and it just looks nice, but really it's squeezing your thing and pinching your skin and giving you burns?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and whatever.
Speaker 1:So this is an important part or not insignificant part of doing aerials, this pain. So then, okay, you try to solve it and you loosen everything up. But because you were on a gig where you couldn't immediately sew the cover, you were sort of forced either I stop practicing or I go. I need to sort of do something, or I want to do it, I have the opportunity to do it. And then the lucky break was, all of these things came together and then you thought, thought, okay, maybe actually there is something in this and you start to see it.
Speaker 2:So yes, so it's not. Yes, I think it is a little bit. You open your mind for something new and you can. You can see that it's.
Speaker 1:There is something, what, what you can use yeah, like that, you see possibilities or so, and I also think the fact that you were one year in meant that you already had a certain level of skills, that you knew how to operate or to manipulate a rope or whatever. But you went. You didn't have an act which was finished, they hadn't worked for five years and you already know. Because then to start with a new apparatus is like, ah, I already have this. Yeah, not everybody then have the excitement and enthusiasm to go let's try something totally different and continue. You have your act, so you might not be. So this too, you had enough skills, but you weren't, like a master of the rope yet. So when this new thing came up, you, you, because your skills are at a certain level, it's like you're also at perfectly poised.
Speaker 1:Because I think sometimes when I start to make, I start to learn a skill, like when I learned to balance the spoon on my nose, to catch it behind my ear. In the beginning I didn't know how I would do it. Yeah, because this is an example of a skill which takes a long time to learn. It's a short thing, yeah, and it's a very delicate maneuver to make it fall and lie still behind the air. So it took a long time. But if this was a trick and this was the whole thing, then maybe I spend. I want a one year I don't know how long, but let's say one year away before you can do it. Not just I can do it sometimes, but I can do it when I do a show yeah uh, when I need to and um, and then you work one year and then you have.
Speaker 1:How long does this trick take?
Speaker 1:like 10 seconds, like and then you go maybe that's yeah like 10 seconds if you play around with a balance a bit before you do it. Yeah, so so. But now it's woven into one of the main acts that I do, or so like maybe after the two that you've seen this, this spoon act that I do is the next one, uh, and it's a five minute thing woven together and I balance this and also do the spoon up the nose, and it's put together in a nicer way with a interesting philosophical point being made, but everything being very idiotic and stupid along the way. So it's my kind of flavor. But when you start with the first skills, it's like the world of possibilities is still sort of completely open. But the more choices you start to make in what you like or you realize is this, the more it kind of gets narrowed down. So you go from the possible to the actual now I have this skill and this skill and this skill and when you then swap to yeah, if you're more specific, you are more in.
Speaker 2:Also, a little you, yeah, you're, you're a little bit um, um, closer, or how do you say it? Um, yeah, when you're very specific, you're not, can, it is not so open the world anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and these things also I find interesting. So you're on a prop. That now is, if you were an expert, your prop would now be broken because it's got in thousand pieces or like 80 pieces, yeah, and then. But then you look at this and because you have just enough skills to do it, but they are open and non-specific because you're not an expert, like you say. Now with the suitcases you're an expert. You said in the last episode that when you changed from one suitcase which is bought, identical to, but they're not identical, not down to the one millimeter here and there, and this takes three weeks to fix, yeah, but with the rope, when you only have one year, you can change to the other one because your level was only.
Speaker 2:It's much more easier to to change something than yeah, yeah it is. When you are expert, it is more difficult to to have the variation yeah yeah, exactly so.
Speaker 1:This is like. So I think it's like luck absolutely plays and plays an element, but there's also factors that comes from you that you're, you're really. You have an act which you can already work with and you have. You want to be a little stronger and do something else. You use your arms exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:That was the point because you got the great act with your legs. I mean, you use your arms a little bit, of course, but uh, it's mainly about the legs, yeah, so now we're gonna have an arm act yeah, it's just a little bit more physical and more exercise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then you have that, but you still haven't specifically gone in, and then you basically discover a new prop that affords you other different things, and you mentioned that. You said maybe you can explain about this that you had a bad act, but somebody said it was not so bad because the audience yes, um, no, it was um, I I did a show, it's.
Speaker 2:It's really this kind of rope with a little, with a 80 small strings it is some in some shows.
Speaker 2:Really, one string was not with all the other one and I had a problem really on stage in the show and I was so angry I said, oh, it was again.
Speaker 2:One string was not on the right position and then I have to bring my legs down and bring it together with all and then I have to bring the legs up again and I was so angry. And then a colleague of me said why you are so angry? Because it is something what just make it really interesting and I think it's also for the, for the, for the audience very interesting when they see you that you are struggling with with some some string. And and I never have seen it from this side for me it was just oh god, oh god, oh god, what can I do now? And, um, yeah, later on, after he told me I was much more relaxed with this situation, then I say, okay, it's today, it's, it's again a very interesting act for the audience and for me too I think this is, uh, one of the things that I say, that so is that you really start to see the character or the human.
Speaker 1:Start to see the character or the human when something goes wrong. Yeah, that's when you can see whether someone is an uh seasoned professional. Also, sometimes, when you how, how do you deal with a mistake and a mistake?
Speaker 1:or like when you juggle, it can be a drop, but actually juggler it's you have to be able to and you like you're a juggler with with your feet, but actually juggler it's you have to be able to and and you like you're a juggler with with your feet and and you have to have a, a way to deal with these things that makes it somehow okay.
Speaker 1:And my friend, jay gilligan, who we've talked a lot about this and he taught he sort of talks that the drop, like a failure is, is basically it's a it's when, when it's a failure of intention, the audience can tell you want to juggle the five balls and then it gets chaos and it falls down. And then they audience know, they now know that you wanted to do this but your intention did not happen. So you need to somehow then change, leave room, what do you do when, when, how do you react to this failure? Because for some, if you do a very artistic act and and you do too many drops, then the whole, beautiful whole, you see it as a beautiful dance of objects and or whatever. Every time you do it, like let's do music because it's easy, so you're playing the piano and you're playing a Bach song and you make one mistake, and then that's okay because it you goes on, but at some point, if the mistakes keeps happening, the music disappears and it becomes about one person who sits at the piano.
Speaker 1:It's like the illusion, but it's not an illusion because it's it's the reality of this, of the musical piece, which you can only experience when it comes effortlessly and they can put the emotion into it, yeah so maybe it's something like that that they then, if your rope, that, this element of it, I see it almost as a as a gift, where you, where they, where you can do your act and you do your tricks. But in the moment when, like you said, like the rope is strapped in a way and it's like, oh, you're hanging in a funny position or something and you have to fix this, yeah, in this moment, if you don't just pretend it is not happening, but that you actually can look at the audience and go okay, here we go, and then you do it again, you get this level of reality with the, with the audience, and also this, the, the way that you behave when something which is kind of obvious to everybody this was not what you hoped was going to happen, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:But here comes this powerful opportunity for them to see you solve these problems in your act, like on the rare occasion that your case falls down. I mean most of the time when, when, uh, when you drop, have a drop, when a case slips down, like it, you have a way of. When a case slips down like you have a way of kind of scissoring it between your legs kind of. So it just sort of slips and you catch it and you immediately grab it and hold it in your hands so you kind of see that it dropped maybe, but because it's straight back up again and it goes in, it is a good one, when you do the foot jackal because you still have the hand and you can bring it up.
Speaker 2:For a juggler, I have to say, when it is on the floor it is a drop. And one thing is, how do you work with this in front of the audience and how do you mention this? And you get angry. Angry or you are, doesn't matter, I take it off. But the other part is also for me and I think it is for a lot of jugglers when, when you dropped, it is in this moment, you're well, you get more nervous. Yeah, and then it could be, then the next drop is not so far, and then you get more nervous and then, um, then yeah it. I think this is the. The music is a good example. You make one mistake and then you get nervous and it comes the next one and the next one and to to work and handling this part. It is just in you. It's not what you show the people, it is really how you're handling the, the, the nerve, nervous it is yeah, the nervousness or whatever, yeah it is, uh, it's for me a much bigger part than um.
Speaker 2:I think we the most people so professional that you don't show the people that you are frustrated. You can, you can smile and take, but just to come on, you have to relax. It is not, yeah, but I remember we were working.
Speaker 1:I was working with my friend, dennis locke as an acrobat, but he was making a new act, the second actor and he did soap bubbles. He does soap bubbles and, uh, the act ended up becoming very beautiful and everything. But I remember in the beginning I was like one of the things that I said that we have to do when we are working is that we have to find ways of, when the different tricks don't work, to make them so good. The thing that happens the comment that you have your reactions to the fact that bubbles break or whatever. We need to make those reactions so good that, when it goes perfect, that there's a little part of you that thinks, ah shit, I didn't get to do this great joke or this great moment when I when I start again, so this was like our, my set bar very high we go what are we? What are the solutions and the reactions that you're going to have?
Speaker 1:Because it doesn't have to be specifically to this bubble sculpture. It can just be like you have three gags that you do with the bubbles and the first one can don't have to be so, so big or whatever, but that you have that. You have these possibilities, and when he did have some great ones. Of course you always want the act to go the way that you want, but that you have the solutions to how to deal with it. And it's in this one when the character then can come out as well, and he was like a gentleman, so he had his little ways of reacting to it. But then also, when the big sculpture, when he makes a very big, complicated thing and it goes towards the end, then he would swear and he'd go oh well, that fucked it. Or something like going oh, that's fucked. Or like I can't remember, but these like using a very strong word there, and it would just because he'd been very much a gentleman and talks like yeah and all of his jokes, I would sort of smart and beautiful or whatever.
Speaker 1:And um, then when this comes, and it was so funny, like people would just like roll on the floor because it and the source of bubbles is so delicate and everything is there, and then he tries and then he goes, ah, and he smashed the bubbles that are left and the smoke goes and it's like, oh, and he did it again. Yeah, and then he usually did, yeah, I think. I think almost all the time he would.
Speaker 2:He would do it one more time, but it is a point if you, if you, um, if happens like this, um, when you do it one more time and it's, it's uh, when you do it one more time and it happens again that it doesn't work and then you do it again, then after the normal, the circus people, after three times you have to stop it. But if you can't do it three times, then you really yeah.
Speaker 2:It is what sometimes circus artists doing. They do a trick and they felt it was. What is it? When they want to do it, yeah, they failed, yeah, but when they want to do it, it was or intent, no, not intent and purpose, yeah, purpose and purpose you when you fail on, when you fail on purpose, that's right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:When you pretend that it was, yes, you have to to.
Speaker 2:Uh, yes, the trick.
Speaker 1:Have to be safe, yeah, otherwise it is not really nice it fails, you fake the first one and it fails for real two times. Yeah, this is interesting. We have talked about this. But when I was doing some direction, creating some acts for a show called club swizzle, just was the producer of lasare. He made a new show and he had these, the swizzle boys.
Speaker 1:There's four acrobats, I think there's four in the beginning anyway. And then we were doing some things and we were doing some um hoop diving, but on a hoop which was hanging from the roof, swinging, okay, and uh. Then we did a uh version it's not the, it's complicated, but he basically joran dawson, ran towards the thing do a handspring, handspring, whatever, flick flack, flick flack and then bam, and he jumps backwards through the hoop. So he folds, sitting with his arms flat, and sometimes it wouldn't work, but it wouldn't be a problem. And then on I think maybe it was even the opening night or so they did it and it went wrong and I had given them this message going if it doesn't work, then don't, just because we had set it up. So there was a Chinese pole at the end of the bar and we pulled the thing up which was hanging on magnets, so that when they made a mistake, the ring fell down and they could put it back on again on these two ropes and I said so the guys climb up on the pole to do the slow drop from up high. Yeah, then I go, and if it goes wrong, don't just do it quickly and send it hard or like, make it, make it the same one again. Um, and then they did it, and then it went wrong on the second time also. Oh, and the audience like this. And then it happened on the third and I'm sitting and go and it also missed mistake and I was like, oh god, this is so terrible and I can't remember exactly, but maybe the fourth one also did not work. Yeah, and it was each time it took the time and they take it up and they lift, hold it up there and they drop, but and I'm like, oh god, this is it, and brett haylock is choleric boss of the experience, kicking the thing and good, swearing in the back of the room and I'm going, oh, I told them to do this, like this. And then, when they did it on the fifth goal, then they ate and and it happened and the whole room it was like an explosion because it was so tense, yeah, and people were standing up and they were so good.
Speaker 1:And after this I have been thinking about this particular moment. This kind of moment is that it takes it away from here's one trick, there's another trick, I know, here's another trick in by the, by the time the third time didn't work, and when the fourth time which I think it did take five attempts, by the time the third one goes wrong, it's now not funny anymore. The rhythm is completely killed. It's the, the music is gone out and started again, or whatever, like it's now. We're now in and now I go. We are now in a sports moment. Yeah, it's now. Can she do?
Speaker 1:the high jump over is it even possible to do. Art was a mistake. It was a mistake. And people go, oh, actually, maybe this is not actually possible to do because it's so difficult. Yeah, so when it happens, you get the feeling which you get when somebody then break the world record, or they do exactly yeah, and I know what you mean.
Speaker 1:And then we knew that this was possible and from then on there was like this confidence that came into the group that they go where it doesn't matter anymore, like and then we go okay, you're gonna do the first fail for real, first to build it up or whatever. And then, because we knew that if it did take a few more, then it we could be able to create it. It never, I think, got as big as this, but I also don't think it failed that many times again. But, uh, it's like you got, you can change the parameters with, but this we didn't do that with the bubbles, and I don't know how many times that had happened, because at some point it's just, it's also now. It's just you've ruined the act and you it's too boring, because some of the things with the bubbles it takes a long time to set up yeah and sometimes what you discover when you're doing this is that something has changed.
Speaker 1:An air con that was supposed to be turned off has turned on, so maybe this trick is no longer possible or something If I'm thinking about.
Speaker 2:for me, of course, it is Every night I try to make the perfect show, with no mistakes, really perfect. Perfect, no wobbling or something like this. And but the reaction of the people when I did a very, very good show, it can be very good, yeah, but sometimes it's also that they are, yeah, she can do it, but when I did a little, a little mistake or a little bit go too much on the side and bring it back, there's the people, more exciting and more with you and they, oh, it can help, I think so I also think that in the age of machines and of perfection and all this, it's like this is not our main, what we love the most anymore, like you want it.
Speaker 1:I think it's more important that you get the feel that you get to feel a little bit of the struggle, or you get to feel a little bit of vulnerability, because within there comes life and comes the human aspect of it. Yes, exactly, and going back to where we talked about before, is that your true character can really come out when you're facing a problem, when everything goes the way that it's supposed to, your life is super easy. Then you don't really know so much about this person. But it's in the moment when something breaks down and then you see, like who are you really, when you can't just rely on the surface of it, when you really come down and, of course, like what I do, which deals with always with mistakes and with chaos or so, but it isn't real chaos. There's some elements of chaos, but then I'm basically showing them my character because I keep meeting all of these big problems, and then you feel like you know me, because it's like oh, he is like this.
Speaker 1:And when Paul afterwards says it's like oh yeah, it's funny to watch him now, but try sharing a hotel room with him, which gives the idea that my whole life, because now I finish the act and I turn around and I fall on the net Exactly which almost smashed the screen the other day. Oh really. Well this was the day before yesterday. Yes, and we have this huge screen and I ran for the net and we talked about this, yes, that you felt on your hand.
Speaker 1:I felt I had to really fall and break to not fall. I was like one inch away from just smashing. I was going this is going to be a very expensive mistake because you have this big LED screen with tens of thousands, so this is really interesting. So we talked about this earlier, about you creating a new apparatus which then affords new possibilities, and one of the things that comes with your apparatus now, which always happens when you deal with one thing, you can have more control If you juggle one ball, you have another level of control over it.
Speaker 1:But it can also be boring, which is why we do the complications. When you're doing a rope act with different ties, so you can do the drops and the almost falls and all this sort of stuff. This is what's interesting about it. But when you have 86 things to deal with, then you can't control 86 things. Also, things that drop and spin, however long that rope is, like three meters or three and a half meters or seven meters. So this is just the picture of chaos which the when I say the images that you you showed, with the rope spinning into a twirl or whatever. This is also like pictures of nature. It's the vortex tornado in the sky or in water, or a maelstrom or like. You see these pictures in nature because it's many different things which are not connected but that are also connected through wind or whatever. So it creates these beautiful pictures and then you're introducing chaos into your act and then it feels like, oh, and you told me that this act you thought it was shit or not shit.
Speaker 2:This was not a good one.
Speaker 1:And then you actually go well, but it opens up another sort of dimension and, yeah, I'd be interested. Did you do some? Because you said it changed your idea of it a little bit. So now, what do you do now? How do you relate to the audience in the moment when you discover that some of the ropes are relate to the audience in the moment?
Speaker 2:when you discover that some of the ropes are um, it is really, it is still for me. Um, really, uh, when, when I, when I can feel one of the string is not in the right order, I, I still a little bit in in panic and and thinking, oh god, what? Because I some often I don't know how it came in this position and it also mean I don't know how I go back. Yeah, and, and it is why it is not in control of me, because I, I haven't do it, it was. When one string is not in the right position, yeah, I, I have no idea how it is really. Sometimes I go down and it is still on my feet and then, and then you start doing um, to, to jiggle your leg.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it doesn't make it better. I I still try not to do this, but sometimes it happens and it's a little bit more panic in my face, I think so that people can see it. It doesn't happen so often anymore because I learned to handling this, but when it happens, it's not that I really use it. I'm not angry about this? Um, I don't use it.
Speaker 1:This is the where I don't feel like there's a room for play here, and it's the best situation when it happens only one out of 10 times or whatever when, when you're in this situation, that means that you can really start also to play with this moment. To invite them to.
Speaker 2:It is what I mean when you do it in purpose. You have to do it really, really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but more than it's like to go to acknowledge this and like I talked about the sports moment, it's just sort of you get this thing going well. It's not what we tried to do. He fails at one time and he's pretty good at it, so we know that if he fails one time he will maybe fail at another time. But then we have the classic one, two, three. But then it went one, two, three, four, five.
Speaker 1:Maybe we actually had the failure in there already on the first one, because he always could do it. But then, of course, when opening night, then everything is you body is a little bit different nervous ways could do it, but then, of course, when opening night and everything is you body has a little bit different nervousness, like we talked about, yeah, and then it happened. So if you now have this in you, that you have, you know that the audience can see it. Do you look at the audience? Because this is like I'm anyway, you say you don't, but maybe there's a possibility to do that where you're looking at the audience and go after you jiggle it.
Speaker 1:Now you know that they know that something is wrong yeah and then they see you doing it then, and then yeah, but it is a problem when you're hanging on a rope because, you can't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. It is also a little bit then the power. You can feel the power go away and now it is. Maybe it's this. It's a good example, because on the rope, when I did I, I performed years with a foot juggling and when you do the foot juggling you don't see the people.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, really you, you have no connecting with yeah with the, as we have no eye contact, just the some second when you get up for a moment but you never have eye contact with with people when you do foot juggling, and then when I start with a rope, I was thinking, wow, it is, it is so much better when you can see the people. It's not this kind of just your legs have to tell something. You really can go in contact with the people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it is what what I already do on the rope much more, because with the foot juggling I can't yeah, well, that's really interesting too, because we sometimes say that jugglers and it can also happen with magicians that they're sort of hiding behind their tricks. You're quite literally holding your props here and the tricks are in between you and the audience and you are looking at the juggling pattern and not actually at the people, but not as much as you, because you're literally facing the other way. You're like lying down with your bum away from the audience, but your eyes are pointing back into the stage, so you are also watching the same thing that they are watching, kind of yeah not watching them, because in all of what I do, I'm watching the
Speaker 1:audience and I'm doing my things and I'm but I'm always seeing them or, of course, I have to look at my props and stuff, but yeah, but this is also interesting, the idea now that you have kind of made it's like a new apparatus in a way. Yeah, and we were talking about this before the East German wheel East German wheel yeah, when I was with Circus Oz. It is your style. Yeah, yeah, well, because we were doing Circus Oz and there was one woman there, mel Pfeiff, who did a German wheel act.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a big double kind of two wheels. So it's more like an actual wheel and it's got got almost like a you've taken a long ladder with another thing and you bent it into a circle yeah and it's put some platforms where you can put your feet and there's some straps so you can lock in, so you can kind of roll the wheel along and you can stand in without holding. But you can also do the sort of picture of leonardo da vinci's vitruvian man man or you can go on top of the wheel.
Speaker 1:Yes, you can stand on top and balance and this was called the German wheel. And then, back in 2003, there was one of the girls in the show, nikki Wilkes, who was the first one that I knew of personally that did the skill of the sear wheel or the single rim wheel, but because the other one was called a German wheel, we started to joke or say this is the East German wheel.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because you couldn't afford the big wheel, but also within it it was also because the German wheel, the big flat, and it just rolls like we talked about. That has to move kind of in a line. Yes and needed a lot of space, huge space, and in a line, not in a circle, which means it's difficult to do it and it's kind of German In.
Speaker 2:Germany. It is just a sport and you do it in a sport hall and you have a lot of space and you go from one side to the other side. You can rolling. It is not really um, it was never a object for the circus yeah but then I think it moved the. The sir wheel it yeah because the sir wheel is a circle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it also belongs in the circus, so it fits so well it. It moves really naturally in spirals or in in circles so it's so it fits.
Speaker 1:But what's so wonderful then about it's called a seer wheel? Because I think, okay, this is us talking from the heart, not from the knowledge. But this is, I think, he's french, I can't remember, I'm not going to say any more about that but some man whose maybe his name is Cyr or something like that. So that's why they called it the Cyr wheel. So this is obviously not the podcast where we research everything and then give you the facts.
Speaker 1:But the genius of this is also in the simplicity of the apparatus. And the East, the German wheel, which is a big ladder folded with lots of sticks in and you can strap your legs in. It has many objects on it and many like it's a complicated piece of apparatus, exactly. You can spin around the different rungs of the ladder and you can spin and you can stand on top and balance, so you can do many things. But it's a complicated bit of machinery with lots of parts and whatever Whilst. The Sear wheel, this German wheel, is just one pole of metal bent into a perfect circle, just a ring, just a ring, and you roll around inside it. But with this one you can do so many different variations with something which is very simple, and I think, but it is really.
Speaker 2:It is a different technique what they are using it is, yeah, they're not related and not so much rolling um it's, it is so interesting and um yeah, so much more possibilities to do because you don't go in the in this um yeah, like the foothold where you put your shoe inside and you strap it in and you twist your feet outward so you hang.
Speaker 1:So you can't do these kinds of images, but all of those things that then are, with specific straps and specific ways to hold that around this rung of the ladder there's a gap so you can spin this way, in the other one they are like this, you can stand on them, like that, so each one has ways that it can be used. But somehow the specificity of that thing means that it is a little bit more like. It's more, I don't know, I was going to say like a machine, but if you think that the fact that it just goes back and forth in the line more or less means that it is not so many acts, maybe Constantine who does the comedy act with the big belly that grows, or so is like the most common use of the German wheel in searches.
Speaker 2:Because you need so much space for this.
Speaker 1:Yeah and the German wheels also. They're sort of too big for the penny drop or the coin drop or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is very hard to do. I never did it, but it looks so much heavier to do this sort of stuff, this wheel yeah, so it's like.
Speaker 1:I mean it's possible, but it is. It's like this thing, which is a much more complicated thing with this big wheel, is like where the other one starts, where the single rim wheel starts. So I also think I sometimes think of the deck of cards for magicians and the skateboard for skateboarders that the skateboard is just one plank of wood and two wheels on an axle that can move a little bit like this, and the fact that it is so simple means that there's unlimited amount of tricks and skills that you can do with it as an artist or whatever you want to call it, as a practitioner on the skateboard. Practitioner on the skateboard whilst when they make made the snake board, which has two hinges so it goes back and forth and you can lock your feet to it so you can jump, it's like.
Speaker 2:It's like the toys that I was talking about it's more complicated, but it is it limited what you can do? Yeah, but the interesting thing is when you go back to the german wheel and then to the third wheel. First was the German wheel and then it came back to the simple one, and very often it is the opposite, that you have the simple one and then the people create something around. Yeah, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:Is it, though? Because it is, but like what's? A good example of something that started as simple and then it became more and more complicated? I guess, like electronics and stuff, maybe? Like in the beginning, the most you could do with electricity was to have one switch and turn the power light on or off. Yeah, but then the engineers and early computer people realize that, yeah, but if you have 1 million switches that goes on and off, then zero and one, whether it's on and off, becomes the beginning of computers, and that gets more and more complicated. That's maybe an example, but uh, it's also, I think. It's like, I think, maybe, a Japanese culture, with something like sushi or something where you can have the French cuisine, which is very complicated and lots of flavors.
Speaker 2:And lots of ingredients, a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all of this and then that's also delicious and amazing, but almost, if you think, if they're on a spectrum, and then you have the the sushi maker. Um, that's a beautiful documentary called the name of someone and he dreams of sushi. Is this documentary about him? And it's a guy. He's like 80 years old and he's the only three-star michelin sushi restaurant and it's a beautiful little in the, in the little arcade, small, and there's only room for 10 people in there and it's it's this guy who makes only sushi and it's really simple and and.
Speaker 1:But when you eat it it's like each one is like a work of art and you taste it. And they show one of the apprentices who works there who is going to make this omelette which goes on top, and he whips this thing for literally for hours and he's doing it and he's making it and the master goes no, this is not right, and this is not right. And he tells you oh yeah, I've been working on this now for whatever it is one year or something and I just can't make it. But now it's starting to happen. I can see it where the guy is just whipping eggs and I don't know, putting salt and almost nothing in there yeah but still there is this difference between them or whatever.
Speaker 1:And there it is. This like you can choose to go towards complexity of many things, or you can also go towards the really simple as well, and and and uh, so maybe there's something there as well, but yeah, yeah, anyway, there is something. Then, when you are making objects that you're going to manipulate that, just like you. We were talking about earlier that the more professional you get, or no, the more expert you get towards your act. You need things to be just this way to be able to achieve this high level thing, and maybe it's a little bit like that too, like the more specific a prop gets where it has, this it can do. The gag is that it can do this one thing, but it's a. It's a. You pull a stick and then the arm comes out and it waves and everybody laughs, but then you put that back in again and this stick can only do that one thing, yeah, exactly so maybe there's something about the sort of simplicity of it, which is why seer wheel.
Speaker 1:Then maybe I've heard that this guy who invented it was not so happy because he wanted it to be his thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like marking a motion with a triangle where he hits the balls inside, bounces the balls inside, which is an extraordinary thing, which also now is yeah, stolen left, right and center but it also becomes almost then like a like you've invented a new apparatus, it is your thing, but maybe over time this was the first unicycles or the first those things, that but. But they have something about it being really simple which also keeps it open for uh yes, it keeps it open for for more possibilities um yeah, I'm thinking about actually the when we we're going back to the rope.
Speaker 2:of course we have the tissues now and my rope is a lot of strings, but the normal rope just one piece. When you see what the people are doing on this rope now, it is not possible on the tissue or it is not possible on my strings, because it is some stuff what they are doing. You really have to catch very precise and not on a tissue, what you catch a little bit. Yeah, it is a simple one, of the better one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but this was also I don't know when it was that the first tissue there. Also, it was probably a person that did it first, but uh, but that also has a has a real sort of simplicity to it. It's just one long piece of silk tied in a knot, more or less at the. You fold it in half, tie a knot so there's a loop at the top and you put the yes rigging through at the top and then this is also like it's more complicated, whatever than a rope which is just one rope hanging, tied in one end and it goes down, but still it opens up all kinds of possibilities. This the shape of the like that you can do all the things with.
Speaker 2:Yes, you can open this and it's, but it's tissue it's. It's often really the optic change a lot and you can do.
Speaker 1:You can make so many nice pictures from this absolutely yeah, and I think that's kind of the interesting thing too. Like you want the different apparatuses because you could imagine, like you that's it's a good example that your your rope with 86 small but then small ones hanging down. But I still would imagine that in a perfect version of the actor, or that it is possible to have the image that the light comes up and one rope hangs there and you don't see that it's nothing, that it's different, and then you come and you touch it the first time it is what I, what I'm doing when you see it in the in the first minute, or when, when you don't touch it, it looks like one normal rope, yes, and then you open it up and then we, it's like the moment you touch a normal rope, then you just go okay, now what's going to happen?
Speaker 1:but when you touch it now something happens that they didn't expect, which opens up the game a little bit more. Now they're like going wow, okay, now we're like in uncharted territory.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of people can you? Maybe in Norway you didn't have it, but in Germany we had. Sometimes we had curtains. They are just the ropes, the strings, and very often when I open my rope the people think, oh, it's like a curtain with a string.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then, what are the yeah, alright. Well, it just turns out that it's a quarter to yeah, yeah, we finish this, yeah, we can finish it. And well, I'll just say that, so it's. It's actually, we have to go to work, we have to be there very soon and now your costume is a little.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it's been great talking about the rope and maybe we continue talking about this at another time about the possibilities with it, because that was my last question. That I was going to ask was like what are the special images and the new shapes and things? What are the new possibilities? That comes from all the ropes, but we can talk about that next time, but I say it now in the comes from all the ropes, but we can talk about that next time, but I say it now in the end, so then next time we can listen to what it was, because this is what I, yeah, wanted to talk a little bit about. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:There were so many wonderful images that I just loved hearing there. It's like reading Water for Elephants or images like From the Greatest Showman or the Final True Confessions of Mabel Stark or some of these novels that's been made into films. I thought there was some imagery there that just begged to be put on the big screen. Really, really nice. So next week we will go from magic oh well, we will go into magic from circus, and we will meet again one of the podcast favorite guests. It is nick the fat. So until then, I hope your shows are great and that you're doing good with whatever it is. So until next time, take care of yourself and most your love, and I hope to see you along the way.