164 - Redefining Progress with Jack Denger Part 2 of 2

Skill can thrill, but can it also tell the truth? We sit down with Jack Denger to explore how a world-class technician turns juggling into story by weaving speech, music, and intentional structure into his act. Jack explains why he started with spoken text: immediate understanding, shared language, and space to breathe between bursts of motion. Those quiet valleys let the audience reset, rejoin the idea, and feel the lift when the patterns rise again. We dig into coherence—how drops can snap people out of the spell—and why that risk forces better architecture: choreography over trick parades, phrasing over sprints, and endings that land where the heart is most open.

We talk expectations and surprise, from placing a biggest trick inside silence to curating moments that defy what a crowd thinks a juggler will do. Feedback splits opinions; authorship unites them. Jack shares how to choose music that isn’t just useful but personal, so the object work carries identity without a lecture. We also unpack context: halftime arenas, festivals hungry for high skill, theaters built for nuance. A single sentence of framing can change how people watch—like a gallery card beside an abstract painting. Commercial shows keep the lights on; deeper work grows alongside, in seasons, as you build a small repertoire that maps a real journey from concrete text to abstract sensation.

Teaching comes into focus, too. Jack’s approach scales for five-ball builders and nine-club chasers by centering tactics that travel: chunking, transitions, rhythm, and presence. We champion open process—treating craft like open source—because sharing the messy middle helps the whole field move. And we face the inflection point: numbers will inch higher, but meaning is the frontier. If juggling is to matter more, it has to say more.

Join us, reflect with us, and then tell us what you think. Subscribe, rate on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and share this with someone who’s chasing the next step in their craft. 

Transcript

Rejoining Jack: Progress And Intent

SPEAKER_00 0:20

I am Captain Frodo and I will be your host and your guide along the way. And today we are jumping back into the conversation with Jack Denger about redefining progress and about putting as much good stuff into our act as possible. Part jam, part me telling him what I think he should do with this act, part him asking really astute questions and sharing some really interesting reflections. So yeah, I had a really great time both uh recording this episode, listening to it again, and uh I hope uh you enjoyed too as we check right back in again. So if you haven't listened to the previous episode, you should uh listen to the previous episode because this follows straight on, and Jack dives straight into the deep end as this uh uh episode opens. So I hope you're ready to swim.

Rhythm Between Technique And Theater

SPEAKER_02 1:20

One of the benefits to using speech in my case was you know, this this sort of little creative journey that I'm on is like just like you and you and Jay, like we're sort of trying to plunge the depths of the essence of the art form here and find a way to tap into that and access that. And I'm I'm just uh both from an experience and like an exploratory perspective on the on the starting on the starting line, right? And so speech, you know, really felt like the right outlet to start because it's it can engage with the audience through direct uh direct perception. Like it it yes, it adds somewhat of a layer of abstraction, but you know, people can directly understand what he's saying if they know English. So that to me it felt like it felt like low-hanging fruit. Um, and you know, I I think just how I am as a person is like is very aspirational. And I'm like wanting to see, I want to think ahead to like how can I make this the most like abstract but the most profound thing at once. And so I but that's not achievable on your first, you know, on your first shot, right? Like so using the speech was just just a very, a very necessary, you know, a necessary step. And um, you know, I think this like like you said, is if if I were to make the next draft of this act, it would probably be cutting down on some of the juggling and really leaning, leaning into the theatrics of the speech. Because then we can, like you said, you can create these sort of lower points of ac points of lower activity where we're all back on the same page again. And it's like, okay, now he's he's truly acting out or conveying the speech, and it's and you know, we just go through this point of sort of reintegration and we're all we're all back together again. And then the energy can pick up and it can explode into more motion, more technique, more juggling, more music, all of this. And so then you know, there's sort of a a a rhythm, you know, waves of high activity, high movement, and and low activity, and you know, more more theatrical. Like that that would be my next um sort of my next step if I were to take this to the to the next point, you know. But um just you know, me being like a a music lover is you know, I would want to instead maybe lean more into the abstract with with the next thing, and um in in terms of relating to the music and maybe using less speech or using lyrics, you know, that are more abstract than a speech directly to an audience. Um yeah, but this was this was sort of just the the starting point for me. And I I was although I had some limitations due to what I chose to do, I think it was a nice um it was a nice way to you know sort of get things moving.

Making Text And Skill Coherent

SPEAKER_01 4:25

I really like it. And I think it's awesome because it is in a sense, like you say, it's like you jumped out on on the deep end. It's it's a speech, he's saying concrete things, and and more so than he is telling a story, he is giving concrete advice as well. So he is uh in uh uh he is speaking uh so directly to uh to the to his audience at the time, and then in in your show, he's also speaking kind of directly to them. Of course, here you've become the focus because we respond even stronger to the visual of it or so. But so I I love that it is so concrete because um because those are the most kind of uh uh difficult things to do with juggling to make it relate to text. Uh oh, it's not most difficult, but it is not the most common thing that you see, and in part why you don't see it much with people, because I was after some of these early conversations with Jay about this, I got excited about the idea of juggling to poetry. Like, how do you do that? Like, and then I I did some preliminary tests and I realized that my uh skill level isn't high enough. If you want to make music come alive or you want to make poetry come alive, you need to be able to reproduce the motions uh uninterrupted. If you're trying to convey uh music and you have not yet uh perfected your presentation of the piece, so that you if you're playing a piano piece and you make one little mistake, the audience might will continue to be into it. But if there is a consecutive uh section where you are making more mistakes, you've been pulled out of the music, and the skills become more visible again, and we we uh we fall out of that. And I think juggling being so technically difficult, like it's one of those things that it's there's just to not have drops is just an unimaginably hard thing to do in in a in a piece. And I I don't know if it's uh like because I don't fully know, I don't never play piano, but it seems like to do a perfect juggling piece is it's got so many more variables because it's not just about pushing the right key at the right time with intent. There is by the time you're juggling seven balls, the height of that pattern means that a 1% change in the in the in the throw has really big ramifications for how how far that ball moves when it's being caught again, and that the the level of difficulty involved, and that might be also why we we view it and why skill level is such a big part of it, is that one, we know how difficult it actually is, but also then that you if you keep being pulled out of the experience of the patterns, you you will necessarily default back to going, wow, either you go with just a negative thing and going, this guy isn't very good. Because you come in and you juggle seven balls and they just go, that's what jugglers do. They just accept that and and go with it or whatever. But the other thing is that they go, Oh, this is so hard that even this dude who is at the top of the field has problems with it. But yeah, so me trying to juggle to poetry or whatever, or juggle to music, it falls flat because I can't sustain the patterns in the way that you need to sustain melody when you listen to it to fully be absorbed in it.

From Tricks To Choreography

Surprising Audiences And Timing Peaks

Feedback, Decisions, And Ownership

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Uh yeah, that's that's really interesting. And like, you know, from my perspective, just having a certain level of technique is uh, you know, my uh I I say like the way that I juggle really it does sort of depend on um uh difficulty, right? You know, the the the understanding that seven balls is harder than five and that to throw behind your back is harder than to throw in front of you. And you know, I I think one one place that I can improve my technique in the future is being able to um use it more as choreography instead of trick, trick, trick, right? I showcasing different skills. But, you know, there are a handful of jugglers that I can name that really excel at almost dancing with the objects in a way that is so flowing and organic. And um, that's a different skill set than just being able to do the seven clubs, right? So um I think it's something worth exploring for me. And it's you know, you sort of mentioned juggling as poetry. It's like this is technically speaking, the the expression of it is you know, how can you use the juggling as choreography with body with you know dance too, and you incorporating this. But you you know, you mentioned something about the the audience's expectations um when when watching juggling. And I guess I just wanted to quickly circle back to that because that was one of sort of the other things I wanted to get out of creating this act was I wanted to exceed the audience's expectations. And maybe, maybe the audience had no expectations, maybe the audience was like, we just know we're gonna see Jack go up and and juggle. But I I wanted to, of course, yeah, present juggling in a new way that was new to the audience, too. But then, you know, I wanted to create at least some moments of of surprise where the audience just wasn't expecting to see what they were going to see. And I thought, you know, one example was I I there was a moment where the music sort of died down at the end of a section of speech, and it sort of reached a quiet conclusion. And there I put the biggest trick of the act, you know. Um, and like I think in my experience, watching performances that really had an impact on on me, it was the performer's ability to sort of curate and then defy the audience's expectations with with what they're about to see. So that that was um, I think, you know, as sort of curators of you know our art forms, is it's important to zoom in and identify what you know what really makes an impact. And the concept of the audience's expectations and how to um how to exceed them was was uh another instrumental one. And you know, as far as the audience's expectations, too, sort of going back to some of the feedback that I got, you know, one of one of the things that I learned and that I maybe wanted to share was that you know, people are gonna have all sorts of ideas about what you should do. And as one of the one of my favorite things that Jay Gilligan said on, I think it was one of your podcasts, was you know, as performers or as creators, our job is to really to make decisions at the end of the day, right? Like with that's that's the goal is to be able to make decisions and to you know be able to justify them or not, whatever is like what what people see on stage is the result of decisions that have been made. And so I I think you know, from taking some feedback from audience members, for example, some people said, I think the five-ball section is too long. And I thought, well, I could see that, that is a big chunk of the performance. And then I had some other people say, Oh, the five-ball section was the best part, that was the best length. You know, that that was that was the exactly right. And you could take either direction, you know, with it, but ultimately the onus was on me to make that decision, right? And to, you know, stand by what I was doing, even if there were some people that said, like, nah, Jack, that whole thing was hokey and corny. And you know, it was just like a motivational speech, or it was like being mansplained to or whatever. But then, you know, there were also people that came away and said, Wow, I I got it. That was that was fresh. Thank you. You know, and um I guess I'm just going back through these anecdotes because you were mentioning the the audience's sort of expectations and um ultimately, you know, the way a performance impacts somebody. Oh, so sort of going full circle full circle to the start of our conversation, it depends on how receptive they are in that moment. You know, if there's somebody in the audience that says, oh great, Jack's about to go up and perform, and you know, I don't like Jack because of, you know, whatever, I don't like this guy, or I'm hungry, or this baby behind me is crying, then yeah, they're gonna have a different experience than the person in the audience that's truly, you know, just totally open-minded and has absolutely no expectations, you know. Um, so you know, it's hard to sort of create that context of no expectations when you're a part of a juggling show or a juggling competition. People know that somebody's gonna come up and they're trying to win, you know. So that that that can change things. But but for but for you a little bit as well, I'm sure you've had plenty of contexts where you do have more control over how you're teeing up your your your act or your routine or or what have you. But I guess just yeah, as you mentioned, all of that about the audience and you know their thoughts on what they're seeing, it reminded me of those those few things that I wanted to pass along that I learned.

Framing, Context, And Sincerity

Authenticity Through Music And Meaning

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah, it's there's always going to be a spectrum of responses to it, and uh and how you like the fact that you had told people ahead of time or so, and I do that in my acts. I usually place the things that I do within some sort of context, and I'm usually very concrete or whatever, and I might be talking specifically to the place where I am, relate to if I'm doing an event for someone or whatever, I might be relating to something that I know that they have been doing where I'm speaking about it. Maybe I know that they have had many speakers and they started at eight in the morning and now it's uh four o'clock, and I'm coming on. Uh, so I might make some comments that that just shows that puts me into this space together with them. Like I know what you guys have been going through, and I'm sharing stuff, and that on on a subconscious level at least, they're sort of going, I know what their experience is, and they've had on this conference one specific experience, and I'm now sort of uh I'm not revealing that I was there or that I but it's just that level of we're connecting, like I'm here and you're there, and this is your experience, and I am aware of how I am in this experience. So I start there, and then I'm making and looking for a link to link it into this next routine that I'm doing, or or so. And at one point there, there is a crossfade where I have gone into the script and I'm now in an act, and they don't necessarily know it. That I have gone from having a conversation, so what I'm doing is to bring them in, and what I am saying and how I'm saying it is relating to what I am about to show them. Like in my act where I do balance the spoon on my nose and catch it behind my ear and put a spoon up my nose, where I just talk about the difference between circus and sideshow, circus and freak show. I that that starts with me saying I have I kind of oh you because you guys have been doing all these different things today on your thing, and then some people work here on this conference, you work in finance, but some people work here in crypto and whatever it is that I'm talking about. And I've gone, and I too have worked in many different things. It's like that just like I have done circus and I have done freak show, and and now I'm already I'm setting up now. This is what I'm about to say. At some point, I can just say, so for all those who don't quite know what the difference is between those, so it's like because let me, and then it now it's gone into the text of the act. But that whole little talk that I do ahead of time where I'm talking, maybe maybe directly asking a question or a question, or like going, oh how are you feeling? or that pulls them right into it. And what I'm doing is to curate their expectation and to get their attention and to get us onto a similar kind of wavelength before I start. Because you juggling within a juggling competition or a juggling festival context. I talked to Jay about this, it's like where people are so horny for high skill. Like they're there to juggle that sometimes the reason why you are a successful juggling artist might be lost to some extent in those because people are like it's they are so interested in tricks and in that some of those people who go, Oh, yeah, it's just some words going on, but then they're just talking about your tricks, which means that they've kind of missed out. I've had reviews like that where I share stuff that is of great emotional importance, and the review lists then he balanced a spoon, then he swallowed the sword, and that, but I'm sharing stories of me growing up with my father and how he helped me through when I was uh had this sort of terminal potentially terminal illness, and and then they get this, and it's a list of, and I'm going like you would get an F if this was like we were out on 4th of July, there was a March, and we saw this, and then we saw that. Uh, it was a good day. Like we're going, what the kind of uh what what have you actually done here? So so much of that is that getting that context of and and and and for your piece, which has so much depth in it, with the potential of and how you react to that. It's like you're going, oh, we don't like being given advice. That's in in in our current situation now, man's planing as the word you used, or as in in like people go, who are you to tell me what to do, or whatever. And I relate to it because I I am uh sincerity or or whatever is is my default mode when I perform and when I'm talking and doing stuff. And I'm like, I'm relating this to you with the best intent, and all my preparatory speaking and all of that gets it in. So when I'm pointificating about as I do in the spoon routine, where I talk about the nature of love and how love changes everything, or whatever, love makes all the difference, it's kind of the emotional punchline of that thing, uh that they are receptive to it. But then also as long as you just because yeah, the difference between if they've bought a ticket to see you, they are tuned into you in a different way, and you can start the conversation at a higher uh level, if that make if you will. But if you're just coming in as as in the worst case scenario where they're just like they've been doing a conference about something, and here I come unrelated as a bit of a palate cleanser, then they don't Know what to expect. And you coming out and doing a piece which has this kind of depth and uh oh this many layers or uh levels of meaning going on. There's there's the juggling skills, and then there's the text, and it's how you relate to it, and how you so it doesn't surprise me that some people are dumbfounded, but also if if you continue down that thing, then it's to find one way to unify them is to get them onto the same page by directly relating to them too. And for me, that the most direct way is kind of through speech. But you can of course explore that if we were to work on this, not just by you sending me a video and me having a few comments, but it's like then we are down to the nitty-gritty of being on the floor where we go, all right, so that was that was good. What will we do here? How will we do this piece or whatever? But so much is the decisions that we've taken on how to do it, and we always take it to get the maximum clarity. But you, in the way that your piece starts, I love what you said about putting the mic out and everything, where you're sort of going, this is the visualization of I will be saying something and the words matter, kind of, and then you it is about the juggling instead, so it's your interrelax. So I I I love I loved what you did with that.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Anyway, sorry, I'm ranting a little bit now, but you said something that I really uh I just loved it on a personal level, and then also I think we can explore it a little bit more. And you said that your default state is sincerity, right? And that really resonates with me because you know, as I maybe look ahead to like, well, what could I what could I create next? How could I push my you know push my limits in terms of creating a juggling performance in a new way? That's that's the quality that I would really like to lean into, I think. Because you know, I I picked this soundtrack in this speech to overlay the juggling two. And while I I genuinely agree uh personally with the points Steve Jobs made, I guess in the speech that they were profound in their own way. If I had to share some message, either explicitly or abstractly, I would maybe share something less less of something less prescriptive, right? Or a clear message, but it would be more have more about um sharing myself authentically with the audience. Something that something that speaks to who I am as a as a person. Um and you you made the example of sharing with the audience your relationship with your with your dad, you know, and um I if I remember correctly, you performed with him, you know, for for some time, maybe learned from him in that way, and then he he helped you through some difficult times too. And I imagine you did this verbally, you know. Um you know, juggling, I I maybe wouldn't, I maybe wouldn't take the storytelling approach if I were to share about myself personally or about my own character or my identity or who or who I am. But I I think one you know sort of entry point or possibility to do that is instead of picking music that is useful for performance, like in a utilitarian way, which is kind of what I did, to find the music that speaks most deeply to me. You know, I'm sure you if you've ever listened to some music and you think like, man, this is me, or I I feel this on it in an incredibly profound way, is like that's that's our pickup point right there. Maybe that's the next pickup point for sharing using the juggling to share myself in an authentic way, is to find the soundtrack that I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so profound. This makes me want to cry, or this is this brings me back to childhood or whatever. And then that's the starting point. Um, so you know, I I'm sort of pontificating on you know authenticity and how to use that as a as a sort of the the starting line for creating something new for me. But I'm I'm curious how you how you contemplate authenticity and sharing yourself as a person, you know, through through your performance. Um what what about your performances are truly you, you know, and um how how do you bake that into what you do?

Commercial Gigs Versus Deeper Work

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah, that's a great question. And I I mean it's also um the work that I do most when I'm doing the tennis act or whatever, it's a little bit like as if your um your Steve Jobs act now, if that big uh went viral or whatever, and then that's what people want. So uh then I need then I need to perform that. And this is an act, my tennis act which I do most, that I was the only act that I'm doing when I'm with Cirque, when I'm doing it's a 12-minute thing, and they book it to be like this, and I can stray in this, that, and the other, but I can't do it, stop it and share something about myself or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Like it didn't need it's uh your act is 12 minutes in wow in my uh what was I gonna say?

Venues, Viability, And Constraints

Holding Tension And Staying Curious

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Oh, yeah. So this is an act that was created in 1998 and has evolved since then. So so a lot of the stuff that I've created since then also has a different nature. So you're sort of being brought back all the time to to that. But some what I do when I sit on top of the cans and I do an emotional speech, and some of these other um some of these other acts that I'm doing have different um more um yeah, have more depth to them. And it's some of the stuff that I would like to lean more into now that I am living in Norway and I would like to find opportunities to do more long-form work to express more things because I'm interested in them. So for me, when I am doing these uh my work uh is uh strongly influenced by by being commercial, also. Uh people pay me a fee to come and do something, and they want uh a certain reaction from the audience. So that is one of the constrictions or restrictions that I have on what I uh what I do. People need to be have a have a certain expectation of some sort of instant gratification, that they get something out of it that feels like it's of value to them. So the different venues offers me different ways uh of expressing those things. I still still think it's like through my I when I if I think abstractly about what it is that I uh what authenticity is, it is when the audience experiences uh what what lives inside me and that that coincides with what I am doing and how I am doing it. And when you're dealing with sincerity, of like when what uh what's going on in the words of your uh act, um then taking that seriously and putting yourself behind the text is uh is of is of importance. When they feel like the words that are being spoken could be yours or so, then uh that that those are your truths. And I thought when I first saw it that that resonates so much. This thing about not giving up and about um finding what you love and then doing what you love, when you show technical expertise at the level that you do, that to me is a it's not a particularly abstract that like when those are the words and then you see your dedication to your craft, then that resonates to me as truth. So that but of course someone will always be offended by, or not offended, but be be taken the wrong way with anything. I mean, I always have these elements of unease in what I do, whether it's a spoon up the nose or it's uh with the dislocation stuff that I do. So there's always someone that don't like it and can't get past that. But um, yeah, so to find that way of expressing something so that when I do it, they feel like this is me. And it uh for me, it's often then through words, but it also is through your familiarity with what it is that you're doing, so that it feels like it's flowing out of you in your very first performance, in your very first run-through, like it always is, you are a big portion of your brain is dealing just with the the running order of what comes next and what is there, and then always sort of also say, like, okay, now we've made that act, and then we will learn to know this act because an act is a creation almost like a birth, and the first time you do it, it's just like the birth, and the miracle of birth, the first time you perform it for an audience for real, often it's just like it's just a it's just it's a great elation, and everyone's excited, and then as you do your act, it's like the act kind of grows up and you get to know it more, and thereby you can express more good. But in the beginning, the act is an infant and it doesn't know uh how what it is, it doesn't know uh what gender it is or who it is, or or it doesn't know how to sit, let alone walk or speak. And those things are steps that you will discover along the way through the actual performance of it. So now you're still counting on one or two hands how many times you've done the act, and each time when the people are there, their feedback will go into you and you will be able to express things more clearly or whatever. So I was maybe not quite as concrete as you might have wanted, but um but it did it did also just to continue on what you were talking about about doing that. Somebody said there was so much going on in the act. The text is is powerful and and concrete, and then you're doing a lot of juggling as well, and that you said that maybe one of the steps forward was to do a little less juggling and to um and I thought and I and that was what I was thinking too. It's to find sections not based on on the tricks, but finding a section where we're just going, okay, we're focusing in on this to to link those things up, and that that was something that I would have wanted to pursue as well. But it might also be that the territory that you're talking about of like in abstract art, where maybe just the title of is all you have, and then you have a some level of abstraction in the image, and that this that juggling that this might be a territory where juggling might um flourish more easily because of the abstract nature of it, or so so to have to have if you're working with text or or or so, but even just to name the piece or to give the audience some idea on what it is that you're doing, so that they so that you're giving them a little like the like that next to a picture where there is sometimes a little little card that gives some information about uh about the thing, even just the date that it was created. So if you're seeing a Dardask picture, that don't make any sense, but then you see that it is from in between the two world wars, and how do you find meaning when the first world war has happened and we have the rise of fascism? Well, how do you and then those things give you a context to relate to the to the work? So doing a piece to music, and I'm of course also thinking it's like that it had that if it has words, so what is the introduction into it so that the audience because you complain with that, like even just a one a few sentences of stuff of what this is, it's like well, you're going, well, I'm I I made this act when I was going through a breakup, or I was in between jobs and was trying to work out what to do, like those kinds of mini things of what what does that do to the way that you view the act when you go? I created this piece just saying those words. It's not like I'm gonna do a couple of juggling tricks here, and I'm gonna put down some music, see what comes up on like the just a display of intent beforehand, and and that you call it. I made this piece when this and that, and uh, and it was based on like okay, and here we go, and then palette cleanser, and you walk off and you come back on again, or whatever, like those kinds of things, like that's like what is the version of that little card next to it that places this into a context, and that first bit where you come on in that moment where they're going, they're meeting you as a human being. That's also like because the main emotional connection that they have to work is from human being to human being. That's our strongest kind of connection to anything in the world. Uh uh that you will always be connected up to those. So something like that, where there is a just a little context, all the all the or to just even that that you come and go on. This piece is called um interim time or or looking for directional. I don't know, like you say one thing like that, and then that just places you in a certain mode to it. Then they go, Oh, he's not coming out, he's not gonna have a spinning bow tie and uh eat the apple on the unicycle. This is a this is different than a little thing like that can maybe go go a long way for you to connect to it. Um and it might yeah, anyway, those are my thoughts.

Periods Of Work And Building A Repertoire

Teaching Across Skill Levels

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I we're really like uh rubbing up against something that's kind of on my mind looking forward. And you mentioned, you know, that uh part of the um well part of your uh part of your um well I'll have to edit this stuttering. I'm trying to figure out how to how to phrase this. Uh you know, one part of your performance style is dictated by being commercial, right? So I I want to sort of circle back to the to that, you know, you get booked for for gigs and people want the frodo experience. Well, the frodo experience, as it were, uh can be many things, you know, but uh what people have come to know you by is the tennis tracker routine or it is the um mics behind the hat, you know, I can't do it obviously, but um, you know, the the emotional speech up to you know this moment. And um you, you know, you mentioned wanting to look for opportunities, maybe in Norway, to, you know, plunge some sort of new depths and to bring some new depths to to life on stage. But your career is one such that you've you've you've got to do the tennis racket act at Matt Apple, you know, and how do you make space for both of those things just as a as a performer and as a professional? I think that that's even as for me as somebody who's not a professional juggler per se, this is something that I think about a lot because for me, like my especially in the United States, my performance opportunities, my opportunities to share my juggling and the audiences and the context I can do that are are pretty limited. So in a couple weeks, I'm juggling at the halftime show of a basketball game, you know, thousands of people watching. Well, that you know, that's a different thing than putting on the Steve Jobs speech and doing some juggling to that. That audience is going and maybe they're getting popcorn or they just went to the bathroom and they're coming back and they gotta go pee, or you know, whatever. Like all of this, it's completely different, you know. And then in terms of other other platforms for the juggling performance, it's like where where does that Steve Jobs speech act play? Where do where where do you perform that? You know, what's the what's the venue for that in America? This isn't a critique about art in America necessarily, but uh it's I just don't know where that exactly fits. The reason I created the act in the first place was because I got invited to perform at a couple of juggling festivals and I wanted to do something fresh and something new. And we already sort of discussed the potential limitations of that audience right there. It's like they're fired up about the juggling, or maybe they will just want to have fun. But if Jack wants to do something a little more serious, and how do you bridge the gap there? You talked about some ways to maybe do that. But you know, for me, it's like where where does if if I wanted to do something more abstract, what's the opportunity to do that? Because ultimately, for me, not being a professional juggler, you know, to create something new, I need to have a reason to create something new. And to create a performance, you need to be able to perform it. There needs to be a show date, you know. And if I don't have a show date, I just am creating an act to have on tap for when the right opportunity comes up, you know. For me, somebody who works 40 hours a week in something completely unrelated to juggling, it's just not feasible to do that. But sort of creatively and intellectually, the the desire is there. But lining up the opportunity to really go through that process again with with something deeper is uh I think is like a really big, a really big challenge for me. It's like I have this desire here to you know tap into the essence of juggling and the essence of who I am and the essence of the music that speaks to me, and just you know, it's like a Venn diagram of these three things, and I just want to push them all as close together as possible so that there's this total integration, you know. This like I I I can really think about these things, and I will I would love to be able to perform the act 40 times so that we get that closer and closer together. You know, we bring the Venn diagram closer together. Of all the overlap of all those things. But but for me, it's like that's that's not where I'm at in life. And even if I were a professional juggler, the the venue is not there. You know, I think about professional jugglers who are performing today in the United States or wherever. And you know, the successful ones, they're doing cruise ships and they're doing circuits, you know, they're doing the Vegas shows, which all of those things are good too. There's nothing wrong with any of that. But in terms of you know, really redefining how juggling can be presented, that's a very niche market that you're tapping into. But um, you know, I I have I have to mention Jay here, for example, because I s I saw his um he he did a show at um a magic venue in in New York uh a few months ago and that was a very that was a very unique venue and you know he he lined up a show. I probably included some material from from reflex that really fit that environment, you know. But that's that's one that's one of that's a one-of-a-kind venue, you know. There's only one of those things. I mean, maybe there are more. I don't know, but if you want to go down that path, even if you are a professional juggler, it's like how and where are you gonna do that? And so hearing you sort of mention the contrast between, you know, developing the tennis racket act, maybe, or the you know, and some other sort of trademark Captain Frodo performances, and then the the things that you really want to go deeper into, that just really spoke to me as like even as a non-professional, is like I experienced that in in my own way, the the the gap between really wanting to go deep and then uh still having to book the gigs to pay the bills and working working in that context too. So, you know, there's not really a a question attached to this, you know, piece, but that that that really spoke to me. And it's it's a it's uh almost a hindrance in taking a step forward and uh yet another new direction, which is something that I would like to do.

Open Process And Advancing The Art

SPEAKER_01 41:23

It's also similar. It's um you go, oh, and I go to work 40 hours a week and I do X, Y, and Z, and then I gotta do my juggling in between. In some sense, my development as someone who might be pushing the limits of what you expect, entertainment or the art of entertainment, as I like to look at it, how far can I push it? How meaningful can I make something without making it difficult? Like you often thinking of literature as going, oh well, uh Roskolnikov of Crime and Punishment is a difficult book, it's a hard read or whatever. So it's it's gotta be important. And but how much can I then include of depth into some into something which is is an enjoyable and easily relatable experience? Like that's kind of the wheelhouse of what I'm interested in. But pushing that will not happen when you're in doing your commercial work. So, in some sense, my work to pay the bills, there is some overlap with who I am as an artist who is exploring what the craft can do. But some of it is also just restricted by what I am required to deliver at that one. So it's almost like you're some of that is my 40-hour work week to make sure I can do when I'm in Vegas and I can do 10 shows a week for eight weeks in a row, and I don't injure myself, and I deliver it consistently enough so that whether we're getting it's concrete builders uh festival or not festival conference in Vegas, so those are the people that are so it's like 10,000 or those there's now it's those or or the or or whatever whoever the audience is or however level of drunkenness that is going on, because it's Vegas, so that's also a thing. If it's Saturday night at the late show, how are they like you need to be able to deliver under all those circumstances? So that's like in this in a sense my my day job. And then on top of that, then I have this these explorations of uh of what I could uh what I can perform. And in a sense, you know, then to do that, you need to have a name and uh so that you could potentially draw a crowd. Because well, you know, find your way into theater programs, because of course there are theaters around the world that are looking for interesting content. And if you're making a successful, you know, things like in and of itself, uh the show by Derek Delgado, a magic show, that he did that uh on Broadway or off Broadway or whatever, but he ended up that that was a huge success. And he did 500 shows of it, and he did and uh incredible show was made into a special that was on Netflix, or was it Hulu or whatever? Like it's those moments where you go, This is a piece which is of interest to everybody. And the first magic trick didn't happen for the I can't remember how long it was, but he does a whole bunch of stuff and talks and sets up a bunch of stuff in the beginning. And if you're looking at it from a magic point of view, there aren't that many magic tricks in it because it's a theatrical experience that it really but as a result, also people resonated with it. Where you when you are a magician or you are a juggler, it's like okay, it's about the number of tricks that you can do in the most minimum amount of time, or like it's just gone, ah, but the audience is the j if you want to reach an audience that will afford you to do it, then it becomes about uh yeah, about in different level of interpersonal, hum interhuman ways of connecting or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Yeah, I mean like that like we're sort of dancing around this topic of the the tension between the commercial needs, you know, whether it's your day job or my day job, right? And then the you know, the desire to explore and to to to be more creative. And like for me, I you know, just the type of person I am, I always like want to know what the next step is. Like, well, what where do I go from here? What am what am I gonna do now? And you know, sometimes I think to myself, like, well, I've got to make a decision. Like, I'm either gonna create something new or I'm not, and I'm just gonna keep practicing my juggling and you know, nothing will happen. But I think like the third, the third way is sort of to just hold that tension of like, you know, just building up a really potent desire to create then to create something that has the integrity that I'm looking for, and to just keep keep holding on to it and to keep allowing it to build. And I think like one of the ways that um one of the ways that we can let it build, and uh this is one of the things I love about you and talking to you and hearing your podcast is that you stay really curious, you know. Um, I mean you approached me to have this conversation, and I'm not even a pro a professional performer, but you you're curious about what my thoughts are, you're curious probably about all sorts of new art, you know, poetry, comedy, juggling, magic, circus, whatever it is. And you know, I I think over time, if we if we continue to stay curious and to allow the tension to to build towards creating something new, then inevitably, you know, on a personal level, it's just gonna get to a point where something has to be born, you know, where all of the inspiration has built up and it's we just have to let it go. And something new is inevitably created, whether there's a stage ready for it or or not. Um, you know, and for me as somebody who doesn't have that next unique gig booked, yeah, I've got the halftime shows or whatever. But aside from that, you know, as somebody who doesn't have that next you know thing, that next show date look on the calendar, uh maybe maybe this is the appropriate way to go, right? Is to like stay curious and you know keep keep exploring, keep thinking about different ways that you know I can I can integrate other things into the juggling and then hold the hold the tension of the desire to create and no reason to do it. And inevitably, I mean it nobody nobody started creating art out of necessity, you know. But great things can be born out of necessity too. Was it Bach that you know wrote a new mass every week for the church? And how many times did he do that, right? So there are all sorts of reasons something new can be created, but I I I just am you know when I think about like, well, what's my next step? Where do I even go after this? Do I keep developing the Steve Jobs Act or do I do something new? It's like, well, you don't you don't have to do anything other than stay engaged and and and stay curious and keep you know being imaginative, hopefully that that's that's gotta that's gotta yield something, right?

Past The Technique Peak

Closing Reflections And Call To Action

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah, and but also like Bach made uh loads of um of uh of music that needed to come out a new piece every Sunday. It's just unbelievable. But some of those pieces are now uh in the canon of the most important musical expressions of of musical history that we know of. We go these are pieces that when you're looking at the hundred most important songs his or music ever ever made in in classical music, like he he falls in on those, and and what I was then and it's that need to create, whether it comes from the fact that he had to pay the bills or had obligations, or whether it was why whatever wherever it was, some of those pieces are known only to enthusiasts, and some of them are you hum them and everybody knows them. Uh and I was thinking of it where you have all the pieces that you've made up until this recent piece, and you the fact that you think about it so much that you made those episodes uh where you're kind of exploring this thing. It's it's a big part of uh it shows that you're a very reflected um uh juggler. You're you're thinking about these things more than most people do. And what you have created with your Steve Jobs piece, it's like that can go on the uh you don't have to work on that every day, but to this new you're taking the next step. And I'm thinking of think think like like you know, Picasso had his blue period, uh, where for a while he was exploring these things, and then he's exploring the next thing, and that is a common thing between painter or with painters. They put on a show at at a gallery, and you know, a lot of the interesting artists you will then see, oh, this is what they're working with now. My my favorite uh poet that I'm in uh listening to now, like David White, when he is making his new collection of poetry, it's clear in there that he is now over this last year and a half, or whenever he's been working on this, he there are different topics that are now interested, interesting, inter that is interesting him. And in and that each one sort of is then the sum of that, and then that becomes part of his vocabulary. Maybe one or two of those poems goes into the rotation of what it is that he uses when he is doing uh doing a presentation or whatever, and uh but but all of those poems was like it was it was part of an exploration of something, and that's uh your first step towards getting well at a juggling convention. If you're thinking of that, there's somewhere where you could regularly be invited to do something. It's if you have uh what happens when you have three pieces and you do the Steve Jobs piece and and you present it, even if it's just like you're doing workshops. I wanted to have a quick talk about that, but it's like that you go, I am doing technical juggling, but I am interested in making technical juggling into a into performance, and that that is an incredible topic because you would be speaking, even if it is just that you're going like uh you're sharing this to all these technical jugglers who do it, and going, how what are your thoughts around actually presenting this? And then you have a the people who come to your um uh workshops in because you're working a bit in South America, and or you have a connection to that, I understand. And that you you're put into a room where these people are on some of them at least are on this high level of uh exploration of skill or so. So those are also interesting people to talk to of uh about these things. And anyway, maybe then you're you have three or five pieces that are over the next year or so that you've gone, you have this one piece, and then you have the other piece, and maybe you when you get the um a new opportunity to be work to do then to do three pieces and to place them in context and talk about what it is that you are trying to achieve. All of a sudden, this is a thing now. Maybe it is just it's a 20-minute thing, whereas like it's not I'm not making a show because I have this going, it's gonna be this, that, or the other, but it is an exploration of introducing meaning and yourself into high technical skill. That's already like the base level kind of what what it is that you're actually doing, and to make a performance, specifically then if it's it if it's in a juggling context amongst other jugglers, everybody uh on one level or another are thinking about these things.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Yeah, uh that's a that's a really interesting idea, you know, because then if if let's say over the course of five years or so, you know I create three different acts that just showcase the journey of you know, something really concrete with the Steve Jobs Act where it's connected to the speech, you know, something that the audience can directly perceive. And you know it's possible if I put in the work and you know all of this, that a progression can take place. And then, like you said, that's it's a great idea. It's like then you have a you have an assortment, right? You have a a tasting menu, and you can say this is the journey that I've been on, and then the audience can see that progression too. And that's that's powerful on its own. So, you know, I I had never thought of that that possibility. And like, you know, the the other possibility too, or another one other one that I just consider is like, yeah, if the juggling convention is like gonna be my contact or my context for whatever reason, then you know, yeah, we acknowledge the limitations of the context, but I can also dismiss the context at the convention, you know, like not in a mean way, you know, but I can have the M, why not have the MC tee up the performance, you know, and say, you know, give a give a monologue that introduces me that I've written myself, you know, or that I come up on the microphone and like you, like you've said with with some of your performances where you bring the context to the table, right? Like I created this piece, da-da-da-da-da, you know, and then, or you know, there are other ways to do that. Oh, there's a 10 minute, there's a seven-minute time limit on the juggling competition. I'm just gonna take 15 minutes because it's not about the competition to me. I just wanted to share this thing with you. You know, I've had all of those thoughts too, where you can you can overcome the the context um, you know, just and take people out of it, you know, by sharing with them. Um but oh sorry, you mentioned you had a question about the the um teaching.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Oh yeah. Yeah, I was uh just because you were talking about how uh inevitably when you're doing a workshop, you need to address in a general way, because people will meet you and some are working on five walls, and some are working on five clubs, and some are working on so I find this tension interesting in everything that I say too. Because whenever you're gonna if you're gonna write something or I'm gonna make a podcast about something, then you have to make it kind of general so that it it it uh touches a lot of people. Uh but the reality is almost like every bit of advice or theoretical stuff that I'm talking to you about now, if we were in the room and we go, okay, try that again, then it's it really it be gets down to these more sort of nitty-gritty details where you're looking at it, and how did this make me feel? How does it so so how do you um navigate that kind of tension of uh hitting everybody in your workshop at whatever skill level they're at, so they all get something out of it?

SPEAKER_02 56:36

Yeah, that's interesting. Well, I I can talk about you know, sort of that workshop that you were kind of alluding to, and then I can also talk about the uh briefly about the podcast uh in a in a general way and why that's a workshop of sorts. So, you know, as far as teaching juggling technique um to students or jugglers on a variety of skill levels, um, you know, I I always found that what I felt compelled to share an approach to technique generally that that was palatable no matter where you're at. And you know, jugglers, if they're interested in attending a juggling workshop, they're interested in improving their juggling. And that's the one thing that we all have in common. So regardless of whether you're working on five balls or you're working on nine, like I am compelled to share the tactics and the the approaches, the strategies that I found that are that are useful in doing that. Um and and that are manageable to both a maybe a newer juggling mind and then uh a very sophisticated one too, because I've been in both places, you know. So that's that's really how I try to approach teaching to a variety of skill levels. And then, of course, just practically, you know, you want to spend a little time with as many students as possible because people are gonna have questions based on what you said. And yeah, you know, I feel like part of the resource of the workshop is not just the words that I say or the my notes, you know, because then I could just print off the notes and send them out to everybody. I wouldn't have to go. Uh, but it's the the other side is that they have access to me, you know, and to for me to see what their tendencies are and then in their technique, and I can you know spend a little bit of time with with everybody and and address those things. So, you know, it really technically it it all revolves around you know, sort of defining a personal approach that I believe in and that I can share with you know a variety of people. Um you you mentioned you mentioned writing and you know the challenges of um writing for a broad audience. How do you speak to everybody? And I brought up the podcast as well, you know, because um really I I wanted to create that podcast because I was writing the podcast for myself um 15 years ago. For the 13-year-old version of me, you know, I wanted to zoom in on topics that I either hadn't heard discussed at all, or that I wish I would have heard about when I was a developing juggler, and just be the one guy that is out there um discussing them or considering them at length. Um and you know, in one of you know, one or two of the podcasts were talking about like how to create a juggling or how to create an act, how to create a performance. You know, I had never heard anybody talk about how to create a performance. So all I did was take my favorite tricks and go do them to some music that I like, you know, but Maybe there's somebody out there that's, you know, 12, 13 years old. They've been juggling for a couple years, and they have some sensitive artistic side to them that the juggling doesn't quite express yet. And they're they're looking to explore that. Well, maybe I'm not claiming to be anything you know, some guru or anything like that, but may maybe my podcast can help somebody, you know, on that path, um, or at least get some conversations going, you know, and then they're in a position to reach out to me and say, hey, I've been thinking about things this way. What do you think about this? Do you want to hop on a phone call for two hours and we can talk about that? You know, and then it can actually have an impact on somebody. Um, so that that's the but the short answer with the podcast, you know, because there are a variety of skill levels and backgrounds. Um, some even non-jugglers listen to that, right? Is like I'm writing for, you know, the the 12, 13-year-old version of me who never um never heard anybody talk about these things in in detail. So it's it's really aspirational and particular in that way, too.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

Well, that's great. It's like that's also what drew me to you as well. It's rare to meet somebody who has such high technical proficiency in in what you're doing and who have this genuine desire to explore it and to explore creation in um in an open forum. So think where if you're a professional, there is a sort if you're a professional stand-up comedian or you're a professional performer, like you want to somehow just it just want to look like your pieces or whatever it is that you're making are just sort of comes out of nowhere. You want to keep the process kind of hidden and not show the exact details. And me and Jay love talking about process, like what's the actual because when you say when when somebody asks you, what did you do, then you tell the story about how it was, yet the day-to-day details were oh, then I didn't do this, and then I went out and I had a burger, and uh like and like like you're trying to get to what is the actual process that um created the work, and that was what drew me into this conversation, listening to your first uh broadcast that I listened to, and that's that and that's that that sincerity in like going, I you're never exactly you're never saying I know the answers, but I am sincerely seeking to explore them. And that to me is um one of the things that's so endearing and so interesting about you, and why I guess when we were talking now that I thought that is of value in as a performance in itself. It's like these are my attempts at doing it, and it seems to me like in a that in that way, doing your three pieces and then talking about it and having this, it's a workshop through performance where there's a QA kind of afterwards and where you can do your podcast flavored. Um who here have thought about this and who because so much of it is just that level level one of here's the tricks in an order, and that's that's where it is. And and if the art form of juggling is to to grow as a as an art form, you know, Jay has this idea that it's only 40 years old as an art form when Michael Motion did his things, that that's when it as an art form it really started to go beyond tricks, and and that people like yourself are taking this question seriously. How can I express something through these tricks? When we are at that level, then the juggling art form is manifesting itself. Not from because you think you've made the great contribution and the next Mona Lisa of juggling, but because you have a serious intent at wanting to create. And then you look at the pieces that were created, and then that that's your blue period of this is what it was. And maybe at the end of that you've realized something, and then you make like the crystal balls that Michael Motion did, or like you get this piece that you go, what the hell, this is some undeniable step forward, opened a new dimension in juggling or whatever. But but the research of that, you know, Michael Motion is a good example of someone who has a lot of mystery around his creation stuff. The pieces are being kept secret until he comes out and delivers it or whatever. So yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:37

Well, that that's there's there's a lot to be said for them for the mystery. And you know, the the the good thing about me, like in my position, is that I have I have nothing to lose, you know, from sharing, you know, just where I'm coming from or how I'm thinking about it, or you know, being public about the the process. It's like um I don't know much about like coding or whatever, but like, you know, some some code for software or whatever is like open source. Is that what they call it, right? Where like anybody can contribute and it's it's sort of just in a public conversation, and then the the source material is available that people can go in and look at, like, oh, well, how's this done? You know, that was that was like kind of the kind of the the desire was just like we can just we can just have we can just choose to have these conversations openly as uh practitioners of this thing, you know. And I think like as a as an art form, like jugglers or juggling, like it's doing itself a disservice to not have these conversations publicly because this is how I think probably art advances, right? I mean, I'm sure whether it's public or private, you know, there's gotta be, there's usually some interaction happening where even the most, you know, reclusive painters probably had their trusted circle of people that they were talking to about how to how to think about their art. And um, you know, I guess a lot of jugglers probably see me as somebody who's just a sport juggler, you know, and uh the technique guy and and all of that. And that's that's definitely true, but I think as far as where I'm at it looking at what juggling is, I do have a very I think I do have a unique perspective because you know I I've I've done the technique thing at this point. I'm not saying that I there's n I have nothing left to learn or that I'm the best juggler ever, because I'm definitely not, but you know, my my technique is developed to a certain point and it's now it's kind of at a stable point. And I I realize, I acknowledge publicly that there is more to juggling than this, and that's where the interest is. And that also juggling, like you alluded to as a whole, is at this inflection point. I think it's at this inflection point too. Um, because you know, while while you know Jay makes the point that juggling is 40 years old in a sense, and I know what he means by that, but also in terms of the development of juggling technique, it it really is at an inflection point where, yeah, like maybe in five years people will do more catches of nine clubs. They'll do nine clubs for for three seconds longer in five years. But um that's to me, that's the limit to where juggling can develop from a technical perspective. Like, yeah, maybe in 20 years somebody will do 10 clubs for five seconds, you know, but this is nothing. This doesn't this doesn't matter anymore. And this is going back to Jay saying, yeah, juggling is 40 years old. The the I think the evolution of juggling as an art form is we're 40 years deep into that too, you know. And um once the technique is tapped out, like I still get a kick out of seeing crazy juggling on Instagram and everything like that, but once but once that's tapped out, like we've gotta go towards the deeper thing. I mean, there's there's a there's gotta be a reason that thousands of people around the world are obsessed with juggling, and it can't just be more than it looks cool or it feels cool. Like there's something deeply human about this that we have to use the technique to tap into and and to to present. So I think that while where I'm I'm at this like weird inflection point in my relationship with juggling, I think actually juggling as a whole is at the same point where we've we've we've reached the technique peak. We can keep making little games from here, but if we want this to be more than what it is, we've we've got to do some we've got to do some soul searching.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

All right. Are you ready to do some soul searching? Are you ready to put your entire soul on display in your show? Huh? I hope you are. And if not, uh if you haven't thought of it before now, then uh maybe you will think of it now, after listening to these last two episodes. Maybe you too will have uh gotten a stronger desire and few little pointers and few more ideas that might uh elevate your showmanship. I certainly hope so. If you liked what you heard today, it'd be great if you uh went on uh uh Spotify or on um what is it called? iTunes, you know, uh wherever you find your podcasts, um whatever podcast you use, Apple Podcasts they call it these days. Back in the ancient time when I got my first iPod, and I think it was called iTunes. But um I'm so old now that I can hardly remember the beginning of this episode. But um, yeah, you can also find me on Instagram, um, or at least you can find my Instagram account there, all the way of the showman Instagram. And uh I don't think so many people actually listen to this very last bit here. Um at least I hope not, because I'm rambling. But until next time, take care of yourself, those you love, and I hope to see you along the way.