170 - Juggling Tango with Menno Van Dyke - Part 2 of 2

You can feel it when an act is more than a list of tricks, but why does that feeling happen? I sit down with Menno van Dyke, artistic director of Circusstad Festival in Rotterdam, to dissect one of my favorite examples of contemporary circus craft: Juggling Tango, his long running collaboration with his wife Emily, a dancer. What starts as a conversation about career beginnings quickly turns into a deep dive on how showmanship, choreography, and structure turn technique into story. 

Menno shares how he moved from a youth circus in Amsterdam to Fratellini in Paris, including an ambitious plan to juggle on a galloping horse and the practical reasons it didn’t survive the real world of venues, touring, and contracts. From there we track the shift toward building a portable solo juggling act, winning at Monte Carlo’s young artist festival, and working across traditional circus and the German variety scene. 

Then we get granular on the creative process behind Juggling Tango: choosing Astor Piazzolla, building a solo that transforms into a duo, and solving the brutal problem of making eye contact while keeping juggling solid. We talk timing, personal space, risk management, hidden spare props, and what happens when a ball drops but the music and your partner’s choreography won’t wait. We also explore endings, why a finale can’t be topped, and how acts evolve like living organisms across decades while the circus industry itself keeps changing. 

If you enjoy smart conversations about circus act structure, performance choreography, juggling, tango, and what makes a piece feel timeless, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show.

LINKS:

You can find information about the Juggling Tango act here.

You can see a filmed version of it here.

And this is a link to the Circusstad festival where Menno is the artistic director. If you click it you will currently (03/26) see me, the incomparable Captain Frodo on the front page.

Transcript

Welcome And Why It Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Greetings, fellow travelers, and welcome to The Way of the Showman, where we view the world through the lens of showmanship. My name is Captain Frodo, and I will be your host and your guide along the way. Today we continue the second half of my conversation with Menno van Dijk, the artistic director of Circusstadt Festival in the Netherlands in Rotterdam. Excellent festival. If you want to have your finger on the pulse of what's happening, uh, particularly in the contemporary scene, but uh as uh you will hear today um when we talk a little bit about Menno's beginnings, uh he really has had a finger in the more traditional end of the spectrum, and he also has a lot of knowledge now over these last many years of being uh the artistic director of this festival. And I have really, really enjoyed. I've uh had the pleasure of being to the festival twice, and it is uh just such a beautifully curated thing. And that was one of the things that we didn't get to talk about today. So there will be a whole episode about um the links between curating circus films and going into uh curating shows in your imagination when you're a kid and into curating a whole festival, which not just with acts, but so this is a topic that we didn't quite get to talk about, but uh something that is uh super interesting to me and and this intersection between the the traditional and the more contemporary. But uh before we continue on, I would love it if you could leave a review for the podcast. Even just like going if you're on iTunes and you click down or you scroll down a little bit on the page where you're listening to this right now and just click five stars. It really does matter. I would love for more people to find this podcast. And because of my focus on just creating all of these episodes, um I don't uh do much work on finding new listeners. So I am asking you to do that, you know, to help me out with that. It would be great if you did. And um really uh the end of this uh uh uh episode, you will hear me and we're saying, Oh, we should talk about this and we should talk about that. That was, I think technically that was sort of after we had finished uh conversation. But some of that stuff was so good in in us talking about what we should talk about, I thought it would serve as a really good introduction to both how Menno and I um have very difficult with actually hanging up on each other, and also with um uh the uh the span of our ideas. So the last sort of uh seven or ten minutes, you get these little nuggets of things that I would like to explore. And if any of those things uh piques your imagination or anything else for that matter, then um yeah, please uh send uh send me an email on thewayofthshowman at gmail.com or um just um click like and subscribe on uh Instagram uh for The Way of the Showman. That would be much appreciated. But now let's uh return to our uh conversation with the wonderful Menno van Dijk.

Youth Circus To Pro Training

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Let's talk a little bit about um like how you actually got into the industry and started to create your own acts. Because you first had a solo act and then you developed the act that uh I when you were doing when I met you. So maybe talk a little bit about that journey of of uh uh being a juggler in uh in a circus. Yeah, any circus.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Yeah, so I was at the youth circus in Amsterdam and uh learned uh juggling there, and uh then I did my high school and I started looking into joining a circus school because it was clear for me already for a long time that I wanted to make circus my profession and that I wanted to be a circus artist. Um, even though so many people said, ah, you know, this will pass, it's a phase, but it never passed. So so I went to I ended up going to Fratellini School in Paris, uh, which was a really good school, and uh spent a few years there, and then my career actually actually started to take

Horseback Juggling Meets Reality

SPEAKER_02 4:35

off. And what had happened actually at the Fratellini School is that what I really wanted to do at some point was to be a juggler on horseback, so on the back of a galloping horse juggling. It's a very old discipline that um wasn't done that much anymore at the time. So my thought was oh, that will be uh quite new and original. I mean, not new, but it would be like I wouldn't be one of the many, many juggling acts. I would have something a little bit different. So it's a it's a skill that I wanted to learn. That's one of the reasons why I went to Fratellini because they were still teaching uh voltige, like horseback uh acrobatics. Uh so I I did learn this in this in the school. I was able to stand on a galloping horse and juggle five clubs. I performed this in the school performance, but then uh I was coming out of school, and of course, I didn't have a horse, I didn't have I didn't even have a car, I didn't have a trailer to transport the horse or anything. And with a horse, you could only work in the traditional circus ring, like you couldn't work on a variety stage or anywhere. So corporate gig or a street show is like basically basically everything advice, everybody and everything advised against it. Uh so I uh I build a juggling act, uh solo juggling act that I uh I had been performing already since the age of uh 10 or something in the youth circus, and I had always had these acts, but then I built a new juggling act, and with that uh my career took off quite

Prizes, Touring, And Career Momentum

SPEAKER_02 6:06

fast. I got the opportunity to uh perform at um a youth uh festival in Monte Carlo, so it's after the big circus festival, they always used to have a festival for young artists called Première Ramp. And uh I was invited there and uh performed and won the prize as well, won the bronze prize, and then I got invited to join one of the biggest circuses in France at the time, Arlette Gruz, uh, with my solo juggling act. So that's how my career took off. And I worked for a few years in various circuses, traveling circuses. I started to get more into the variety scene in Germany, um, played several other festivals, and then I ended up in Germany on a contract uh where I met my now wife, Emily, who is a dancer.

Meeting Emily And First Collaboration

SPEAKER_02 6:53

And uh in the in the times between contracts, I'd always come back to the Netherlands and I had already experimented a bit with combining uh juggling and a dancer. Uh actually, I was asked to to create or to co-create for uh a dance festival in the Netherlands, a piece where a juggler and a contemporary dancer uh yeah interact together, but we had very little rehearsal, so um it basically ended up me uh doing my juggling to the music and the dancer dancing around me, um, and there was very little interaction.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Uh button acts or so. It's yeah, the first sort of step that comes. And that's what when we talk about the acts as a living organism or as some of it has that the depth of structure that you discover that you would that might develop over time and all this. But like you, I think of this as like this is the first thing while you're juggling to music, it's just having the music there and then having the juggler juggle to the music and having a dancer and a juggler next to each other.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Uh and she didn't want to that she didn't want to touch any of the juggling objects, she was very scared of that, and uh also uh well there was this choreographer, and we only had three days to put it together. Um but it was interesting, uh, and it stayed in my mind, and I had a video of it. And so when Emily and me got together, at some point, uh, we were I showed her this video actually of this performance that we did, and she um she looked at it and she was like, Oh, this is interesting, but she said the same thing. She said, like, but there's like no connection between the two of you. Uh and I was like, Yeah, that you're totally right. Uh, but maybe this is something that we could just for fun maybe work on a little bit. And she was like, Yeah, that would be nice, let's let's just try. And we were on the same contract, so we had time to to practice.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

She was that where was the where was the contract?

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Well, we were in Germany in a in a contract uh for like a dinner show. Um, and um that was not that long, but then the year after we were working in France, where we also managed to get both a contract, she as a dancer, and me with my juggling, with my solo juggling act. So there we had one year uh where we would be working in Royal Palace in Kirvillard, it's a big cabaret actually in uh in the east of France.

Inventing Juggling Tango With Piazzolla

SPEAKER_02 9:14

And um so during this time we we we just experimented with combining a juggler and a dancer on an equal basis, and then also the the tango came back because all my youth uh tango had been present. My father had this tango orchestra, my mother was often setting this piece by this choreographer, which is called Five Tangos, and it's set to uh five tangoes by Astor Piazzola. So the music from Piazzola had been also there all my childhood, and I had actually always wanted to do a juggling act to Piazzola's music, and I had tried it alone, but somehow it never really fit. I never could really make the act that I wanted. And then when I started working with Emily, at some point we we we listened to that music again, and we were like, ah, we should actually work on Tango music and on Piazzola. So we had uh developed all these uh moves together, like different ways of juggling behind her back while we're dancing. Um, so there was quite uh a few uh interesting research uh um going on there, and it looked also a little bit like dancing tango because of me having my arms around her and juggling behind her back. So then we thought now we have the tango music, we have these moves, now actually we have dancing, we have juggling, but we maybe we should actually like dance actual Argentine tango, and that's when we started incorporating the actual uh Argentine tango in in the act and uh worked very hard uh with uh with a teacher to learn uh Argentine because we wanted to be uh as genuine as possible. So we learned uh the the basics of the tango and we learned uh we we built together with her career choreography that uh that fitted in the choreography that we were making. So in I think it took about two years altogether to to form the the basic structure, like to get all the technical stuff together that we needed to master to get to make the choreography, to learn to learn to dance tango better, and uh yeah, so then it after like two years it was ready for let's say a first showing uh for an audience. And then there was this festival in Germany um on the island of Sult in the north of Germany, which is called Soli Circo. And uh this was a festival where we thought, oh, this is a nice, nice little festival. We can try the act out there. There won't be that many people, probably, and let's just try it out. Uh so we went there, and then what we didn't know that there ended up being agents from Cirque du Soleil and all the varieties in Germany, and it was actually much, much a bigger deal uh than we thought it would be. But we performed our act that we had only like once tried out in front of an audience in Amsterdam in a studio. Um and luckily for us it it went well, like it got a good response, and uh a lot of people were interested, and we got our first uh contract out of that. Uh, but if I look back at it now, like the act doesn't look anything like what the act looks like now today, or like in the in the in the past few years. Like that's the thing, like the the act structure has stayed basically the same over the years, but the act has evolved so much. I mean, of course, in the first two to three years, the most, but af but even after, like you like you were just explaining, it's all in the details, it's all it also just develops with your age and with with with yeah, with changes. Um it it never it never stays the same. And we have videos from all these different periods in our career. So when you put them back to back, you just read you just notice all the differences. You see, like, wow, this is this, yeah, I would never be able to use a video from let's say uh 15 years ago uh to represent what we're doing now.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

I I know, and that that's um I think that's a really good thing too. The fact that you look at the old videos and you can look at them, but you have to somehow make caveats if you show it to someone or if someone sees it, it's like one of the things I was just writing about is this that you the actor has been my actor, Dennis actor was completely full, completely full with jokes and everything from the beginning. But if I was to guess, it's like at least 50% more stuff inside it now than what it was because I ended up landing on this piece of music and the length of it, the one that you've heard with the Herb Albert and everything, which is I finish at like 1135 or whatever, I finish the last bits, eleven and a half minutes. And um so I had this uh limitation of the music being the same, of the length of it. So the only thing you could do was to layer and put stuff on top of it inside. I think this was a really healthy uh uh and important part of my development of the act that I couldn't make it just here's one thing, here's uh here's another one. It's that you were caught with a length of time, so you had to think structurally and layer things so that more things were going on at the same time. So, with that, when did you guys land on the piece of music that you guys uh uh have been using or still using

A Solo That Turns Into A Duo

SPEAKER_00 14:35

now? Is that this has remained the same for a long time?

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Yeah, yeah, that's had that has been there from the beginning. Uh it's three different pieces of music. Um, they have been there from the beginning, and actually the first piece of music, which is my solo, because also the act structure that we use is it starts with a two-minute solo by me, and then Emily enters, and that actually changes the setup, which is which was quite um an unusual way to build a seven-minute act. Uh, and maybe maybe still now, actually. Uh, I don't know many acts that are built up in that way, that there is one person entering. It starts as a solo act and then develops into a into a duo act later on. Um, but the first piece, the first piece of music is actually uh one of the tangos from that ballet that my mother used to set. Um, and I created a routine to that piece that was part of my first attempt of creating an act on on tango music. So I must have been maybe 15 years old, and I created uh a small routine with three balls on that music, which is only two minutes long, um, just to surprise her, actually. And uh when we built the act, I went back to that um to that piece that I had, and I it it I evolved it, of course. It it changed, I I I changed things and I made it better and I involved the chair that we were using. And um, but it's yeah, it's something that really went back that goes back a long way. Like I've been performing with that or with that music for for for for for even much longer than the juggling tango exists. And then the other two pieces came when when when we started to work together, and and that structure has stayed the same, actually, all those years.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Because it's interesting, like when we're thinking of structure as well. It's that it's that you which it feels to me like I I don't have any deep understanding of tango, but you uh but but correct me if I'm wrong, but you have the woman and the man traditionally as they're dancing, they do things off to the s off on their own as well. Like you have these sort of moments where they're kind of watching each other and uh being apart and then coming together, and feeling like that's represented in your act as well, and and there's something sort of sensual and interesting as well about you do the act and it has a natural ending because it follows the music and it's you feel like you come to the completion of something, but then what comes next is not the normal thing of uh getting one more object or changing the object. You're not finished with the balls, and now you die or whatever, and then one grabs the rings or or so. It's the introduction of this additional character, and this is where we were so yeah, but just because I'm I love talking about the structure of it, like how does it evolve then in the second piece? Like when she comes in, because this is where the first iteration you did with the other dancer, uh then there would be some interaction, but only peripherally, that you both exist in the same room. Yeah, but that's kind of that that's only the first moment of when Emily comes on. You have what the essence was of the previous version of the idea before it was came to fruition. Now that's just literally the first uh 12-15 seconds when she comes in and you have this moment of her meeting us. Maybe describe how that uh develops. Um then we see these next levels that adds up in how the interaction comes as you come together.

Eye Contact, Space, And Timing

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Well, the because the first part I'm alone and I'm with three balls, and it's quite uh up tempo uh music in a in a very uh quite unusual, uh quite difficult rhythm, actually. Uh it's also very difficult to to play it live if a band uh would would want to play it. Uh we've done it, uh, but it's not easy. Um and it's it's very much um focused on I'm focused on on my juggling and on to a certain extent on the audience. So I'm actually performing. And then when Emily walks in, uh it's like there is a it becomes a triangle because I'm not 100% focused anymore on just the juggling and the audience, but suddenly I'm also having to have my focus and my eyes to Emily because there's it's actually a lot about eye contact, and this was one of the biggest challenges because a juggler uh has to always watch, of course, when you're juggling, it's essential that you watch uh what you're doing, uh because otherwise, I mean it you can to a certain extent juggle uh with your eyes closed, but uh most of it is because of the eye hand coordination. So to have moments where you can actually make eye contact with the other uh performer was really something that we worked on a lot to not lose this connection between the two of us because we it's like a meeting, like she comes in and she actually challenges me with two extra balls that she brings in, and it's a bit we have this moment of where we lock our eyes and and then she so she starts to move on the when the new new music starts. So yeah, she gets my attention in certain ways and takes it kind of away from my attention that I have towards the audience. So from that moment on, our um uh our yeah, our story is it's much more it becomes much more intimate. The audience is watching, but we have very much fewer direct interactions with the audience from that point on. Um, so that was also interesting to find the right balance in that. Like how much do you acknowledge the audience? How much do you just stay into this play interplay between two artists? Um, how long can I juggle uh without having a moment where we stop where we do have an interaction together so that it doesn't become me juggling and her dancing around me? Uh yeah, so that was that was the process to to find and then with the music where we choreograph everything to the music, so everything happens in the same rhythm and the same time in the music every every day and every show. So that was yeah, that was the process to find this balance. And uh I think we we we manage quite well, but it was also challenging because as a juggler, uh you need a little bit of space around you, actually. There's like a certain uh space that you need around you to be comfortable juggling. And when somebody enters that space, which is happening a lot in our act, that she actually enters my juggling space, it's not a very comfortable situation because it's a potential risk. You know, if if she bumps into my arm at the moment that I'm supposed to throw her catch, like it's gonna mess up the whole juggling. Um so yeah, so it's scary also a little bit as a juggler to let somebody in this um safe space basically that you have around you. And it has to it only it can only work through perfect timing. And of course, over the years we've gotten so much understanding of each other and of the working of what we have to do and what I'm doing and what Emily's doing. So our timing is very, it's become very natural and very uh in the beginning, it was much harder. And I think it could only work because we had this very very tight timing to the to the music.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

But it's interesting because this to me that this this is the a a description of a human condition as well. Like you you meet someone and how much how how are you connecting with them? That that's what comes out in this first bit and you when you say oh you have your personal space and then to let somebody into that space and to to still be able to function as yourself. I just see that picture in this where you you need some space to be able to make your pattern work or you to make your thing work. But and how would you dare to let somebody in and and the truth of how it was to create it was it takes a lot of work. It is not easy and that's how it kind of is in real life too. It's like if you're just dancing around each other and then you stop what you're doing and she stops what she's doing she's not dancing and and you're just not juggling then you can have it's like a fling and you come but you both sort of stop life but how do you continue on working together or to for both of you to continue to do the thing that you do where she is a dancer and you're the the juggler and to have that mix of it where you also dance but she also takes part of the juggling and understand it. It's it has um lots of resonance and that's what I find in this when we talk about structure. When you talk about beautiful structures of an act they are similar to me to mythical structures where myths stays always uh current or perennially perennial questions of the big questions that we ask are sort of answered in myths so a myth can come back into use again. A Greek myth continues to uh seem interesting or have something specific to tell us or or whatever. And that's because I like to think about fairy tales and myths and and I like those kinds of story structures and I've thought about it since I was in school in child in childhood when I made uh spent a whole year writing about the northern myths this golden and Thor and all this. So that that's sort of in my DNA a little bit and I see that in these structures that you are describing now that I immediately when I'm watching acts more abstract circus acts too it's things patterns like this that I also see where you have is it a comedy is it a tragedy and these big broad outlines but this encounter on on of what it means to work together I see that so well uh in this second section of uh of your act as well yeah yeah and and one thing that we were very strict about was that uh even though Emily uh has learned how to juggle uh we didn't want her to at some point in the act take three balls or three clubs and just juggle by herself um because we felt that it would break her character actually like she is the dancer and I'm the juggler and we work together or we live together or we are together or we spend time whatever you want to call it of course it's also a metaphor for all kinds of things right like becoming one in a sense yeah and one of it's not it's not all you and it's not all her and it's not her becoming like you or you becoming like her but the tango dancing like her first movements when she comes in and you your first movements being the juggling when you are coming in the thing that you find and what's so great about it is that it is that third thing. It is a genuine encounter Emily looking at the video of the first uh uh iteration of the idea Tango and juggling together and she just goes well it's a juggler and a dancer in the same room together but we haven't but the the coming together is the is the hard bit that like you say then we had this idea or whatever and it took two years to realize it because you needed to learn how to dance she needed to know enough about object manipulation that she can do these cool throws behind her back or to so that it so that it fits with the timing of the music and and with you. So yeah yes yeah yeah no definitely and it's uh it's it's also about compromising right like uh like she does she is involved in the juggling in in it like you explained just now and I am involved in the dancing we dance together but it's uh yeah it's it's taking a step towards the other in both ways right and then finding a common ground um yeah it's um it it was it's as interesting I think to to to watch as it was the the process to to get there yeah no it's uh it's powerful stuff and and then by the end of it you're also you're doing all these incredible things with like three balls goes up and she steps into the pattern and you're juggling behind her back and it's some very uh like it's high level juggling but it's made so unbelievably much more complicated by having people who are literally or not people having Emily walk in and out of the pattern.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Yes you have a five ball pattern where three go up and she walks in and kind of in an embrace and I continue to juggle behind her back. Things like that are part of part of the act. How long did that take to to be able to do to be solid because even when she comes in and embraces you she can't push you because if you all of a sudden go back a little bit so she's gonna come with speed through the pattern it's just you only have the time of the of the throw there's so much timing and coordination in the movement so that also me being me small so your arms fit around her and yes that I mean it already took some time to figure out like where does she put her arms so that I can still juggle that I'm not like uh bothered too much by by not having space uh and also I'm uh limited in um how for example if I throw a little bit too far like I cannot just like normally when you're alone you can move take a step forward and in this case I cannot because I have a whole human uh in in in between um that I cannot just I cannot just move I cannot just bump into her and move her uh forward and even if I if I could or if I would uh I would probably be too late because it just takes more time and you so you're much less free so everything needs to be much more precise that was something for me as a juggler that was also um more of a pressure um because in the previous act I was alone so I could much easier um adapt to drops or to situations and now we have an act that is exactly time to music and where I'm not alone so if I drop something right before Emily is supposed to fall into my arms I cannot just go and pick up the club because she's gonna fall on the floor if I'm not there to catch her.

Drops, Decisions, And Staying On Beat

SPEAKER_02 29:24

So I I need to make these choices in a split second like am I going to pick it up do I have time or do I first catch Emily and then we go on and then we see about it later. So also during the first few years of performing um all the all the possible well situations have occurred and uh we've always had time of taking time to think about it later uh and say like okay if this happens ever again how do we continue from there? Yeah and of course also now with the years we like I said we we understand each other uh so well and we feel each other so well on stage that it becomes so much more natural also and every but still it still happens actually from time to time that things happen that never happened before. It still happens it's it's not like everything has happened. But a lot of things have happened and it's it's it's a sport to to be able to continue because the act is also built in this way that everything uh even though it's complex and and difficult to do but it all feels very natural and as if it just had to be like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

And also because it fits with the music and it just it just all happens and we just dance and juggle and and it's all uh in harmony let's say yeah yeah yeah um but of course as any juggler uh sometimes uh things drop or unexpected things happened uh yeah and then you have to deal with that and that is much more complex when you're in an act like that already when you have a time to act the music it's difficult but when you have a second person um and a and a choreography that that is also dependent on you uh it's harder because we also have the situation that sometimes I drop something but it is maybe better for Emily to pick it up because she needs it like two seconds later she needs that ball um so that means that you have to think ahead yeah and um and anticipate the the upcoming choreography totally and this is so interesting because for one it's um when most people why they also fear to create an act and to create a juggling act to music where everything is the same even as a as a one person doing an act of music even there people have a sort of a much looser uh relationship to the music and because the challenge is so great if you're doing stuff that is everything is mirroring the music completely the more closely it's combined and intertwined entwined with the music and being a visual representation of the music the more challenging it is when something uh happens that uh was unexpected a failure of intent as Luke Wilson would call um the a drop like it's not just that he drops the balls but it's that you wanted something to happen and and when a lot of the time if you like see it in a street show which to me is like that most base level of of of performance or in like a loose performance where the performer is talking uh doing jokes and juggling then if there's a drop then the uh the the drop when the ball's on the floor you will make a joke or you will do something so now it becomes a little bit about the drop and then you go back into what you did before. But because yours is so interconnected to music then when you were speaking about this it made me think I read a quote uh recently and I think it's Miles Davis and I can't remember exactly what the words were but the meaning was that it is the notes that comes after the a note that you didn't want to play that decides whether that note was wrong or not. So when you're playing an a solo and you're playing a trumpet or like and then something happens in the music that wasn't right then by repeating it and finding other ways other notes to play can so all of a sudden justify that that thing that happened so that it it's like something unexpected happened and then you have to deal with it and you guys have had to deal with this all the way in the way that a musician has to it still has to be on beat and it still has to be it follows the music so so closely that which bit is it that stops? It's like do we skip the dancing aspect of it the synchronized choreography or was that a trick that we need the ending on or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

It's such an interesting space to be in yeah and it involves a decision and there's two people involved and we cannot we don't have time to to talk about it. So you just sometimes it's just in a look at each other or or like I said some of the things have happened so we have talked about it afterwards so now we know like if this happens at this moment then it's better that this person does this or that or we or we skip this part and we go on from there or like you get all these um little shortcuts that you then um know. But then still uh like I said still unexpected things happen and that's where you sometimes see how well we work together when something like that happens and we manage to to solve it in in in the way that we both have the exact same idea in the same moment like oh this is how we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Think of it again as like this it's it's it's like in like musicians where she takes one little cue from you because you've dropped a ball or something has happened and you now both know that that needs to be picked up because also you know the act so well you you you master the the form of this section so much that you both might in the same instance see that the first time when you can now because we've already started the movement towards an embrace or whatever you might already predict where the first option or possible spot where you can diverge from the choreography somewhat so that you can pick up the ball and and what to do next. Because it's not just that though it because you're so intertwined that it's not just that she might already be holding a ball that is supposed to come into the pattern at a certain time. So she is also directly involved for some of the time she's walking around and has the objects in her hand and they go back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

So yeah they switch a lot like the objects switch uh hands a lot and we have uh a very loose uh structure of elements or how many elements like uh it's not the traditional buildup of three bowls and then uh four five six etc it it it it evolves a lot um from five to back to three and then two clubs and then two seven bowls and then back to clubs and so also where the the the elements are placed on the stage um is very important so when they drop it's also always the question like oh do I need this later on again or can I just leave it there or like yeah all these kind of thoughts go through your

Props, Hidden Spares, And Audience Setup

SPEAKER_02 36:30

mind.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Do you have spare balls in some because you have these little black you don't notice them unless you think about it.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

But these small incognito foldable IKEA boxes or whatever that's placed that uh that yes hidden spots around yeah we wanted something very uh low key something that would not attract the attention uh but you don't notice it yeah you notice the chair but apart from that it's sort of like there is nothing here. Yeah the chair is a character the chair is a character in the act actually uh because it's it's so used uh all through the act and and it's actually quite central in the beginning already uh but the the boxes are yeah just there to to um to have places to store the material and yeah we have extra um bowls and extra an extra club as well oh yeah because also the the act moves a lot from uh different parts of the stage we we don't we use the full stage so sometimes we might end up on the right side of the stage uh or we we lose a club on the right side of the stage let's say for example and then we have to move on with the choreography that tells us to move all the way to the left corner of the stage um so there's no time to pick up that club that dropped on the right front corner of the stage so then uh I have another club in that box that is on the left side of the stage as well so that once I'm done with this choreography part with Emily then I can and have a moment and I can grab that club and I have three clubs again in my hands and I can continue with the next part of the choreography. Yeah so that's uh that's something that's definitely essential to to have for us.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah it's also um because I think of that too like your the the physical objects that you have in uh in a juggling act if you think about it as a uh the the the I'm I talk about how when you first start a street show you you need to get the attention and you can do it by popping a paper bag or screaming or putting something on fire or whatever. But if you're doing a a long act you do something amazing in the beginning but then you need to somehow create an interest so people sort of lean in and go, oh I want to see where's this going and and on a very small kind of level that is what happens when you see juggling objects on the stage. If you in in a traditional juggling act it comes in and there's five clubs hanging along the table and there are an undefined you see the rings you don't know how many there are but once they take the rings if there are some left you kind of go I'm I'm sure in a minute he's gonna juggle the the rest of those or or something so so that's also the thing with the fact that balls are kind of hidden as well and that that you juggle your three balls but then when she comes in and brings new elements that also there is now the there's all this um new potential like that it's it's making you look at the future now like you it you're drawing uh well at least when you look at it like we've been talking about um look at an act as soon as she comes in and she got two balls you go even even if you don't think of it like you just think of it as a traditional act if she was out there like the real traditional act where there's a where there's a woman who hands all the props to the juggler you would think this is like still has this um hint of the traditional um juggling act uh where the woman then comes out and here are two more balls for you to juggle so you still have that sort of feeling that that's gonna happen but of course that is not quite what actually happens and it takes a long time before you juggle five or like it's that's not the point of this act. So it has this sort of nod back to the future but she is an active and integral part of it and when she takes the stage it is also clear that she is not just standing resistant.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Yeah no we we really wanted to stay clear from that but I think uh yeah it's I I realize now listening to you talking about it that that moment when Emily enters the stage and she shows the two balls she doesn't hand me the balls but she shows me these two balls um uh it it is a bit the the like a little nod actually to that position of the assistant that brings in the extra material which I think but from that moment from from that moment on then we go into totally different yeah but it is also what's great it's just what it feels like why I'm talking about like this these levels where you go in and then you you see it in in an instance there's a female coming onto the stage and she shows the balls and now you somehow I mean people we're also overanalyzing it because we see it so much or whatever because because because this moment is so short and she immediately starts to move and it becomes clear but if you just high like pinpoint that moment this in this moment we could be back back in a quite a traditional structure and and it isn't and that's also my I've just finished my three ball solo so it's also very logic in this traditional setup that then the assistant would come in with two more balls. So maybe it is kind of setting the audience on the wrong foot a little bit but not really intentionally and I don't think people see it in this way.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I think it's more people like us that recognize this kind of it's like a reference it's like a cutting we're cutting it up it's because it is all like like any music. We're talking about now um well it's actually in the interchange with the music but that's beside the point we're talking about like what happens over two bars of music or whatever. Like and then and you break down that moment. But of course this is one moment that you don't analyze and feel like this but it's moments that you see when you see it again and again like when you live with a piece of music yourself. Like I listen to a lot of classical music and some of I particularly like Bach and when you listen to a piece for the very first time it's like just an overwhelming amount of sound. And as you go you just see these melodies that are contrapunctually interweaving with each other and and and I'm I start to strongly anticipate when different elements of it comes together. But that's this is a structural language that's why I connect I think of what a human being is a lot as like thinking and feeling and doing also as like you have those as different elements and I see them connected to structure and uh and character and and um whatever and I see that the structure I have that as being a kind of a thinking uh the thinking the reflection of thinking in the in the show. Of course each of these uh everything happens everywhere all the time of course but uh but structure is something that you intellectually appreciate as well even though like you experience it in your heart or in your gut when you're watching your your act these things that we talk about that's why they become so academic or so pedantic or we're we're breaking apart something which is one flow of duration uh but I I love to do that and then when you see it again and again like I've had the pleasure of seeing you work a lot you two and uh and then you start to see things That are not available to you to see um when you just see it for that first time. But so yeah, anyway, I do love that I do love to break it down like this, even though I know it's very artificial, because but um but it just is that flash of of where you think, oh, I know where this is going, and then in the next second you don't, like it and that's a wonderful thing. It wants to be uh inevitable but also surprising. Like you do end up juggling the balls, but but uh but the relationship between the two of you is now what it's about, and whether she gives you the balls or not, in fact, for that next little bit, the giving and taking of the balls or whatever is is a big part of what that initial interplay is.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Yes, so yeah, definitely. No, definitely, and I think um yeah, I think that's what happens when you watch uh an act over and over again, right? Like you start to analyze it and or not just an act, but acts in general. I think uh and what I love about it is that there's not um there's not just like one recipe to it or something, like because we're talking a lot about structure, so it it sounds maybe like, oh, there is a certain structure that an act needs to have, and to some extent, uh maybe that's true, but to many in many other ways that's that's not at all the case because there's so many ways you can structure your act, and for every different um discipline, but also the but or story that you want to tell, or um there's so many different or emotions actually that you want to provoke. Uh the the way you build your act um is unique to to to every act, actually. Um and that makes it also so fascinating to look for uh to look for to when you're building an act to look for that that structure that works uh that works for you for this particular act, but also when you look at acts when you see one where you go like, oh wow, this is really like this this is just so well made and it's it's so good.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Um also makes it hard to pinpoint sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Oh, it's it it is very hard. And it's also although I think Bach actually sat down and quite had a very mathematical mind of how he had the notes and stuff intertwining, and and I know that he deliberately made, like in some of his pieces of music, he's got letters, so it so that he uses the notes as letters so that it actually spells out things for for people or whatever. So he uses, but a lot of us when we create stuff, don't sit down and make this analysis of what we want to do. Like you might have have an overall idea. Like I just saw somebody talk about Stanley Kubrick, who had a particular love and fascination for structures of his movies, and how um he was interested in, for one, doing different movies about completely different topics, but also having movies that are structurally different as well. And he was talking about the structure of Clockwork Orange, which has this where the peak of the story is kind of in the middle, where he meets and meets up the homeless guy, and then he has all these, and then breaks down, then the middle comes, and then he starts to meet meet all of them on the way back out again and interacts with them in the same kind of order as well. And so very different from this sort of classic thing of you meet the hero, and then here's the challenge, the monster, or whatever, and then there's some things, and they steal a steal a lady or they do whatever it is, and then in the end he has to face the monster, which is another sort of structure or so, but it's just so it each story is its uh is its own unique telling of that.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

But yeah, and it's a choice as well. That's what I what I really find interesting is that it it's it's a choice on how you want to how you want to build it and how

Ending Design And The Outdoor Show

SPEAKER_02 48:11

you want to end it. Like it yeah, I I also have seen like our act, for example, builds up to to a climax in the end, right? Like we finish on on a quite a high, like it's it's it's a build-up in intensity near the end, and then we have a very clear and strong finale trick and pose and and with the music, and it builds up to that point.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

But love and the the how hard, how much emphasis on that. We do a very high throw, it's like quarter, I don't know, five, there's a big high throw. You catch her as she drops into your arm and like sort of tango thing, and then you catch the club afterwards, and it's the final thing, and it's the final beat of the music. And I always thought it's such a ballsy move to do because there's so much emphasis and all of that on that last catch. Like you want it so bad as an audience, too, that all of that comes together. It's the culmination of the dance, the culmination of the trick, and just have that catch with a glove there. It's just so unbelievably satisfying when that happens, and it's it gives you this rush because you feel like this was the completion of the structure. You'd promised all these things, and then you can't move because you're holding her, and then grab it. Such a strong, such a strong final sort of in image.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Yes, it yeah, it works, it works really, really well. And of course, it's a risk because uh when you if you drop the last one, it's still a strong image, but it's it's not exactly the same, of course. Um, and actually, in the very, very beginning, at that very first festival that we did in Germany, we had another part after that. Oh we like I told you, we had created the act and we had almost never performed it, and we had thought that it would be nice to to finish off the story that I we would finish in this pose, and then we had another music come on, and then I would get rid of all the juggling clubs and we would just tango dance tango together. And it was quite an upbeat uh dance that also kind of uh uh built up to a climax. Uh, but when we performed it for just I think it was in the show, just I don't know, I think less than six or seven shows. Uh everybody just kept on telling us you cannot beat that moment, that that last final catch with the music. Uh every anything you do after that is gonna be um yeah, it's it's gonna bring it's gonna bring it down. And it wasn't um it wasn't, I don't know, it wasn't it wasn't um it was too long and maybe not uh poetic enough or something to to build it into a poetic ending. And I think it I think I mean I'm still I'm sure it was the right decision to to cut it and to not um to not use that uh use that part. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

It's a wonderful uh great to hear that as well of things that because it's so true. You you sit down and you have your structure that's there on paper. I'm making a new act now, and I think I know this is what the end is gonna be, and you're gonna do this or whatever. And um and then sometimes the audience just tells you that this bit is insignificant or this bit is actually what's most fun or whatever, and then you need to listen to that. But if you if we were talking about the structure of the act, then you go, there's that huge ending, and then now we'd literally dance off together or whatever, that makes complete sense as a structure. But then the audience tells you, which is what happened in myths and in fairy tales, which was an oral tradition. If there was a bit of the story that was boring over the retelling of it, that stuff would disappear, which is why you end up with these very famously the so not strong characterizations to people's uh like it's just action, so it's particular patterns of behaving or whatever. Um, so here now we we talk about it and then then it makes total sense that you have this moment together. But somehow in the whole, they this is you can't beat the next the final move there.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

No, we thought it would make sense uh for the storyline. I mean, but in the same time, maybe it's also just nicer to kind of leave it in the middle, like that. It's not me giving up juggling for dancing with her. Um maybe that yeah, maybe that was I think that's actually it's also better maybe to not end the story in that way. I mean, we still stay both in our own field and collaborating together, and I think that that's also the better choice, even story-wise. But it but the main reason at that time to cut it was because it was just not topping the the ending before. We had basically two endings, and the second ending was not as strong as the first ending. And then later, when we built our outdoor show, uh, because we ended up we performed for many years in circus rings and variety stages and all kinds of different performances. Uh, but then we also got approached by a big uh outdoor festival in uh in Germany, in Hanover, Kleinesfest, and we built uh a 20-minute version of Juggling Tango uh especially for that festival. And then we took some of the elements that we had cut from that dance and built another dance that we then put at the beginning of that show. So actually, in that show, the storyline is different because we start as a dance couple and we dance tango together, and then I discover uh a suitcase full of juggling equipment, and then from that moment on we have several dances and things where um where juggling starts to be more and more involved, so it actually goes from purely dancing to more and more juggling and ending with the act as you know it, actually. Interesting. So um, yeah, so that that then changes actually the whole uh setup to it, um, which is also very interesting, and also took us some time to find the right uh the right structure in that.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Excellent.

Acts Grow Up As Times Change

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Well, I think that we've spoken for about two hours or recorded about two hours, I think. Did we already? So I think we so we've sort of covered some of the most of those things that I wanted to talk about. So maybe we could um we'll uh stop it there and then um we can continue it on uh next time.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Yeah, no, definitely. No, I think we we have lots to talk about. I mean uh this was very much now actually focused on the act in the end, which was great to dive into dive into that a bit. Um but for yeah, for the we can talk about the the the shows. I think I mean we we already talk about uh I remember us talking like in the evening after the general rehearsal of the last uh freak show, and we were like discussing for hours uh the the the the 30-minute show while everybody else was having drinks, yeah, relaxing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

But I but this is also one of the things I think of as is what why we get along so well too. It's that it's like when I really people are relaxing or whatever, but this to me, to talk about the structure of things and talk about these creations, it really is so at the heart of what I find most interesting and compelling. I can just talk around in circles about it and explore all the possible possible ways it can be better.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

And uh for me too, it's definitely not uh it is definitely uh something that I do for fun as well. But also because it's um but also because it's necessary. Like, you know, when we when when you know that the next day at uh whatever it is, 1245, you're gonna premiere this new show and you just had the opportunity to showcase it uh in front of some audience, yeah, you want to go over all the the whole show and discuss all the points where maybe some things could be made a little bit better or that things that worked already fine, like make sure you keep it that way tomorrow or something like and just have a discussion about it so that you the next day have everything you need to talk it over with the crew, with the girls together and and uh and do the show.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

And I remember one of the things being there were mainly adults there, or like uh not kids anyway. And it was a family show and they all understood English. So I know I just added in stuff that wasn't supposed to be there and took because now some of the games that we had with the girls being Siamese twins and all these things, some of the stuff that was aimed at the younger people, uh, being scary or being what silly or whatever, they didn't land the way that it was supposed to because you're sort of watching it for adults, and then me, I can't help myself but adapt to the fact that there was only adults there. So I speak differently and I said more stuff than I was supposed to, and all the sort of can't help but adapt to the immediacy of the situation. Uh but uh so there was lots of things we remember we were talking about to go, yeah. Sorry, yeah, this wasn't actually what we had even planned. I just started doing that because the adults were laughing, and then I just did it because now we have, even though it is a general tryout, the first dress rehearsal, anyway. We could also talk about the the choices we are faced with, and then you take a choice depending on your act, like what you guys have done, and then when you've taken that choice and then you start to explore it, stuff comes out that you didn't know was there or that you didn't know was gonna come because it's like it comes from the nature of it. Well, how do we really need? Whether the layers, like you talked about, with the eyes, and you have to look at each other, because that's one thing with like tango or whatever. It's like the woman's looking, and then when she's looking away, it's like attention is building because she's on her own, but then when she turns back, it's oh that's a moment, also.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Yeah, and the thing that I didn't talk about, which also happened, is that I also had to let go of some of my juggling uh tricks that were major tricks in my previous act. Yeah. Um but I I had to let go of those because I couldn't be uh looking at my juggling objects the full time. I I had to, and and anything that was just not absolutely essential for the st to move the story forward or to move the the choreography forward, we cut it. And I made an exception for the seven balls to be in it, to have a moment like that of like technical high uh number juggling, let's say, um, because there was a right moment in the music to do it, and it created uh but it's not at the end, for example. It's not like there's no there's not the traditional build-up where you end with the biggest number or the biggest trick. Yeah, it's somewhere in the middle, and it's like it just happens, like and it just fits beautifully with the music. There's even a moment of contact with Emily as well, and so because I do it two times, um, so that fitted, but many of the other things just didn't. So I just had to let go of those and yeah, and do only the things that are necessary for this particular act, yeah, to make this one work.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

And it's not not easy, and that's a process we can continue on. And one of the things that we didn't go that I wrote here was like, what's the structure of the first act? But then you morphed into the second act, and we dove so far into that. But that's also a thing going like what another act that you make made and what's the structure of that in the same way that there's so many structural elements of my acts of the different structure of the spoon versus the cans. Well, the cans is a very kind of classic build-up kind of and also what I find also an interesting topic to talk about is that next year our Jaguing Tango act will be 20 years old.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

So it's 2007 that we started. Um so it's also very much something, even though it evolves and everything, but it's also something that it was created in in that time. Yeah, and I find it very interesting that when we perform it now, we don't perform that often. It's also something that I didn't mention, and we're actually not like full-time performers at the moment. We still perform, but very little in a way. But when we perform, it still gets the same response from the audience. Like people come up to us after the act and say, we've never seen something like this before. And I think I must say, I think the act is also in many ways stronger now than it was 20 years ago, obviously, and maybe also than it was 15 years ago, because it has grown over the years. Um, but that it's still so relevant in a sense that it has not become mainstream, like it's not like a structure of an act or type of act that has been done over and over by now, which sometimes happened with certain types of acts, they are new at a certain point, and then suddenly uh everybody is doing it, so it's not that new anymore. Um, but in on the other side, on the other hand, so it's still very relevant today. On the other hand, it's also an act that was made at that time, and if if we would be um the age we were at that time now, and we would create something, we would probably create something different.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

I think I think so too. It's it's the nature of how the tennis is and the nature of how the cans are. I was a younger man when I made the tennis than when I made uh made the cans, and some of what I in some sense we could say that what I do in the cans is more indicative of the kind of stuff that I talk about in my acts now. All my other acts afterwards are more in the the territory of it has these kinds of things, and um but somebody I was just talking to stand-up comedian here, he goes, like, yeah, because you acts are so funny and all that, but it's also sort of philosophical talking about the tennis. But he was talking about because I talk a bit more about Jesus now than I used to. Okay, it's just the same topic, but I just uh say a few more things, and he's like and so he could even get that from just that act as well, with a few little elements, and so it's always been there as part of me, but it's sort of come out later, and I feel that it's a more matured way or whatever. But we also didn't talk about it in so many words, but I do think that acts grow up. I think acts of acts as organisms in in themselves, as a like a kind of an individual and the act itself. You grow and Emily grow, and the act grows in in itself as well. It grows up and it learns who it is. In the beginning, it's just enough that it was done. Just like the birth, the baby comes out and there it is, doesn't know who it is, can't sit, can't stand, can't talk. It just is there. But when you are there on the premiere of an act, it still feels like a moment that is incredible, just like being there at present at the birth. It is the most miraculous thing. Here it is, it didn't exist before, now it exists, but it's a rough kind of thing. But and then as the act grows up, it's like it knows more who it is and it it asks questions of you and and tells you what it is, like that interesting detail that there used to be a little coda at the end of the thing, and you go, Oh, that's see that you you that was your you wanted the act to be, and then the act eventually tells you, no, no, uh, this is actually what it is. You you you had the end, but then you had to say something more. But did you cut that, then it's better. Love this stuff of yeah, reciprocal process.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

That's very interesting. But but also the the industry is also changed in 20 years, and that's also another reason why I'm I don't know if we would have made this act um if we would if we would make something now. Um because it's just the industry is also shifting to different um in different directions, and I think, yeah, certain sense acts are also a product of their time, even though they can be timeless in the sense that they can go on for a long time and can still be um relevant. But in the same time, yeah, um I could also imagine that if I had started out now, that I would also be maybe more interesting or in or more interested to to create um maybe a longer show or um go more into theater or some contemporary work as well. Also because yeah, I don't know, I think it's a different um it's a different era also now.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

I always really like it when um uh uh have these conversations that can go into the depths of the technical, but also have uh the a broader scope. And um one thing that uh came up here, of course, that we didn't that we that we touched on was the relationship between Emily and between um Menno uh in creating a number. And I would really like to talk to Emily as well here um because uh you know, how do you translate dance if that's your medium and how do you do it? An actual collaboration, because that's what this is a collaboration between dance and juggling too. It's like as weird as what it was in the beginning when they did the first operas where you're going like we're gonna put text and music together with acting, and it's like we're combining plays and music, and this this is that. Um, and it's a very, very good uh example of it. And interesting, Emily has also created a wonderful, very well researched uh project that has been going really well. Um be kind. And um it's uh shows with takes circus and connects into babies, and I um you know she's such a reflected and uh thoughtful person, so I would uh like to talk to her as well about this and to hear from the hearer from the other person, uh not with a juggling perspective, but from a dance perspective. We haven't had that on the podcast. So note to self. Um that sounds like a good idea to myself. Um, but yeah, apart from that, uh I think we have covered almost everything.

Closing And Ways To Reach Us

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

If you have any thoughts of something you wanted to say to me or anything else, then uh send me an email on uh thewayofthshowman at gmail.com. And uh until next time, take care of yourself and those you love, and I hope to see you along the way.