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Take the Elevator
394th Floor: Prop 57 Shockwave with Cystal Davis - What Does Justice Mean When Time Only Heals One Side
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A murder sentence is supposed to mean something. So what happens when a family hears “50 years to life” and then, years later, gets a phone call saying the person who killed their loved one could be released under California Prop 57?
We talk with Crystal (with support from her partner, Jonathan) as she shares a raw, detailed account of being pulled back into the justice system after her brother’s murderer becomes eligible under the Youthful Offender Act. She walks us through the confusion, the research spiral, and the courtroom reality: repeated hearings, a small juvenile court room, and the surreal experience of watching a 34-year-old described as “the minor” while the crime is recited again line by line. It’s grief on a loop, made worse by policies that can feel detached from the people forced to live with the consequences.
We also unpack the practical side of criminal justice reform in California: what Prop 57 actually changes, why ballot language can be misleading, the difference between parole and probation, and what it means when records are sealed or expunged. Crystal explains the RISE program and the idea of nine months tied to rehabilitation pathways, then shares why she started a change.org petition to reform Prop 57 and connect with other families facing the same retraumatization.
If this story hits you, don’t just listen and move on. Subscribe, share this episode with someone in California, leave a review, and tell us your view: how should the system balance second chances with victim rights and public safety?
Please visit change.org to make an impact to Prop 57.
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Welcome Back And Personal Check-In
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SPEAKER_03Hey, it's Jen the Builder. And Corey. And we're on the elevator for part two. Oh, first, just want to say hello. Hello. And hope everyone's doing okay. Corey, how's your week been?
SPEAKER_02The week has been, uh, let's see. I'll tell you what. So what happened was it went by really, really quick, but it was a lot of fun. And then on Sunday, we had this amazing Zoom call with our new illustrator. Just giving us a bundle of joy.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I think that was the highlight to the week too. Shout out to Rika. If you follow the Fuzzy Fairy Forest and you're into these books, first off, you're not, what's wrong? Get into them. Second, our next book is um about a bee. I'm not going to give up names and anything like that, but this artwork is at a whole nother level and uh it's adding another dimension.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. How about you, Jen? How was your week?
SPEAKER_03It just went by way too fast. I felt like I didn't have enough time for all the things that I had to do, you know, that kind of way. I was excused from jury duty. That was an interesting process. And I don't know if I shared um this, but I'll do it real quick and we'll expand on it later. But during the time of jury duty, there was an ice raid and I didn't know it was happening, and it was scary because it came out of nowhere and just men in mass bum rushing, you know, a person, and uh it was uneasy. I didn't like it. I don't think anyone likes that, but that was my story. Um, and then we had some news um with someone that we work with. We don't know personally, I don't think you do, but sad news there on a Friday. So just uh like ups and downs. A roller coaster kind of week. Yeah.
Trial Outcome And Living With Loss
SPEAKER_02Well, we're gonna have another very interesting conversation that is going to lead us down a road of emotions and deep feelings, and we welcome that. And this is going to be our part two with uh Crystal, who is telling a very personal story about a strange knock at the door and what followed after that. And so we're just gonna pick up where we left off last time, Crystal. Thank you again for being here.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here, happy to tell this story.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And so, you know, feel comfortable and I'll jump in and ask a question when uh when when needed. And I and I want to say thank you to your significant other uh for being here too. Uh, we really appreciate you.
Why Time Does Not Heal
SPEAKER_00Yes, thank you. Thank you. So to pick it up where we went off, so you know, the knock at the door, we go to trial, and this person is found guilty and sentenced to 50 years to life in prison. So we are feeling uh, you know, there's a mixture of emotions um when a when someone is convicted, especially of such a heinous crime. So um eventually the family, you know, you you never necessarily move on. You adjust to this new norm, whatever that is. You go through the first, the first birthday, the second birthday of my brother not being here, the first Christmas, the first Thanksgiving, the first, the first of everything, then it becomes a second, then it becomes a third, then it becomes the fourth, and you adjust to this new norm. And years had gone by, and I think the family we worked on healing as much as we can. I think um we know that healing is a journey, it's a process, it's not just um, you know, it's not healing is not linear, you know what I mean? It's there's gonna be those peaks and valleys, and so many different things you're gonna go through. So I would say after uh so many years, you know, my brother's daughter, her second birthday, her third birthday, fourth birthday, and eventually time does what time does. Time goes on and um time continues to go. And one thing that I think I learned from this situation, um, and I think it was a big uh moment for me, kind of like wow, is the fact that um gosh, the world doesn't stop for your grief. No, you could be going through the most horrible time in your life, and you're gonna go outside and there's gonna be people smiling and happy and celebrating, and meanwhile, you're in this space. Um, so I think that's helped me with um being able to just just how you sit in those moments when things are going good. You have to be able to sit in those moments when things are going bad. And I think life has taught me that. But the world does not stop for your grief. So years had gone by, and you know, Crystal.
SPEAKER_02Let me jump in there real quick because uh I'm gonna ask a question that I'm sure a lot of people want to know when you go through something like this. We have some people that are listening that haven't experienced loss in this capacity. Yes, is it true? Does time heal everything?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely not. You heal, it does not heal. Um, you learn to adjust. I don't think you'll ever truly heal. You'll have a part of you that will never be the same. Um that the family gatherings will never be the same. Um, you know, when you're with your siblings, it will never be the same. So I don't, I wouldn't say time heals. Time gives you, time helps you adjust to whatever this new norm is. I think healing, um it's I think it's different for everyone. I think if you ask my mom if she's healed, it'll be uh, you know, absolutely not. Um she's but she's adjusted to not having her son.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I would say time makes it easier.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I don't think you actually um completely heal. Time helps you adjust. Um, you know, as it's kind of like a day. As your day goes by, you eventually, it's kind of like starting a new job, I would say. Not even a job, you know, at first it's very, very uncomfortable. You don't really know, you don't know what to expect. And then eventually you don't even think about it. You just wake up in the morning and you just go to work. It doesn't you don't think about, gosh, what is uh, am I gonna be comfortable there? What is this space gonna be like? Because you know what the space is, and I think this is a space that you get you become familiar with it. So it's it's that part of just being familiar with the um the pain. Gotcha. But really good question.
SPEAKER_02Oh so um feel free to hop back into the story and and just um I I'm liking when you give us the for examples and and breaking it down. So feel free to jump back in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, definitely. So um we just started going on with life the best way we could. I mean, even on my brother's birthday, his birthday is not celebrated at home, it's celebrated at the cemetery. The birthday, you know, his uh whenever his daughter comes out, we go to the cemetery to see him. Um, so you know, Father's Day comes and we go to the cemetery. My grandfather that passed away right after him, they're buried side by side. Um, so it's always like you you feel you feel kind of like you're there with them when you go. So years go on and that just becomes our normal, you know, like this is what we do, this is how we celebrate, this is how we um remember my brother. We go to the cemetery and years have gone by. We think we have somewhat healed. And it's so funny when you ask the question about healing, because healing is just so, it's so it's it's up and down, I would say, uh kind of like grief. You think that you're one place with uh grief, and then it's like you know, there's so many different stages of grief. It's yeah, it's up and down. It could be uh reminders. And I think healing, you feel like you've healed, and then something happens, like what I'm gonna discuss, and you're like, man, there's some things that I still haven't worked on or like that I thought I healed from.
SPEAKER_02Band aid is just ripped off. That wound is just as big as it's ever been.
The Prop 57 Phone Call
SPEAKER_00Yes, and then you realize that maybe uh you put a band-aid on something that probably should have required stitches, right? Like you and I think that is what came from what I'm going to share next. So um years go by, and you know, this is the story. This is this is what um my experience, my family's experience was, and um it was about August 2025. Um, it was a regular day for me. I'm working and um my phone rang and it said uh victims of violent crimes. And I immediately was like, and I'm not, I'm gonna be honest with you guys. I thought they were calling it to tell me maybe the person who um murdered my brother passed away. I thought they were calling to tell me I anything but what they called to tell me. But um, so um I went to the kitchen and I picked up the phone call. Well, actually, I had to call back. And um, they said, We really um, hi, Crystal. And I was just like, hi, who is this? And she's like, Well, let me explain to you who I am. I'm a victim advocate. Um, years ago, you worked with my boss. Um, she was also a victim advocate. Now she's a manager, and um, she remembers your family. She's remembered this case. And I'm like on the phone, like, okay, yes, I remember her. Oh, yeah, she was the one that sat by us in the court. And, you know, yes, how's she doing? Oh, she's good. Now she's my boss. And I'm sitting there and she's like, um, but the reason why I'm calling is because um there's a proposition, and this proposition is proposition 57. And um, have you heard of the Youthful Offenders Act? And she's asked me questions, and I'm like, no, didn't really hear anything about that. And I'm like, let me go get a pen. So I'm like writing stuff down and I'm like, okay, Prop 57. And she's like, Because of that proposition, um, starting January 2026 in California, um, there are going to be some people who committed crimes that are going to be let go. And the guy that murdered your brother is one of them. So immediately I'm like, you know, I was so taken back. And I said, Well, what do you mean? Because uh he was sentenced to 50 years to life. Um, he hasn't even done half of that. What do you mean? He's helped me understand. And she's like, uh again, um, if you could come down, um, there are gonna be some court dates. And so at this point, I am confused. I'm like, let me get a family chat together because I just I don't understand what's going on. And she explained it to me.
SPEAKER_02Let's pause real quick because I gotta, I gotta jump into first and foremost, what did 50 years to life mean to you? So what what was that number or that idea in your mind? What did that mean?
SPEAKER_00To me, that meant after 50 years, there's a possibility he could get parole.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I'm like, okay, by the time maybe he would be, you know, 67, there'll be some type of consideration, like maybe he's done his whole life and maybe his, you know, last 20, 30 years he can, you know, go. So that's what I thought 50 years to life. And they said it would be um the po he would be able to go up for parole after 50 years.
SPEAKER_02Right. So the reason why I ask is because most people think 50 years to life, I'm never gonna see this person again. This person will never exist in any space that I'm gonna be in.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02And and now you're literally being told you might see him within the next couple of months.
(Cont.) The Prop 57 Phone Call
SPEAKER_03Yes. And I find me, I think, in addition to that, some of the things that I would I sense is 50 years may not have felt like an even trade, or because I in our minds, and Crystal helped me out here, but if something like this were to happen to me, I think my heart would naturally think life for a life. Yes, right. And so here's justice, and it's 52 life. And so that was something that you had to take in, and now you're like you said, he hasn't even served half that time, and he's being potentially released. Yes. So how does that I I don't even have the words like that's another type of grief or another loss because you have to accept that 50 years to life is what it is, and now it's not that. Yes. So you're you're just processing all of it all over again.
Walking Into Juvenile Court Again
SPEAKER_00Yes, and that's exactly what it was, Jen. It was processing it all over again, just being like, okay, just I think I had to wrap my head around what was said to me. And I immediately I did get off the phone and um I immediately started doing my research because my mind was like, what is she talking about? But she said Prop 57. Um, and I think when I got home, oh gosh, you know, you gotta hold it together while you're at work. I got home and I just cried. I think I Did you stay all day at work after that? I did. Oh wow, I did. I I think it it I was processing. Um, I stayed all day at work and then I got home and I just broke. I I could, I don't even think I slept that night. I was just crying. I was talking to my family because I'm like, how is this possible? And then I started doing my research and I was just like, oh wow. And then it made me realize, like, wow, our family is not the only person, only family that's going to be going through this. But no, it was grief all over. And I think once I got the phone call, she said, okay, so the court case will be, um, the first hearing will be in two weeks. And we want you guys to be there to let the judge know how this has impacted your family, how this has impacted you. And there will be a DA there that will be trying to keep him there. But he more than likely will be getting out. So can you guys get there for the first day of court, maybe about an hour early? We'll sit, we'll explain everything to you. Um, and I said, sure. So by that first court date, I think every day I cried, I think I cried every night for about two weeks because I just was like, How is this happening? I couldn't understand. And I at the same time, while crying, I'm doing my research, right? Every day when I get off of work just trying to figure this out. And um the first court date came, and um she said, just so you know, um, before she got off the phone, after I got took the phone call, this will be a juvenile court. So you'll have to report to the juvenile court in San Bernardino on this date. And just I'll be in the lobby waiting for you guys, and you guys can go ahead and um I'll explain everything to you. So that day finally came, and that was a um Krista.
SPEAKER_02Let me jump in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I know the information you're being told. At any moment did did it settle that this could possibly happen, or were you still in just total disbelief?
SPEAKER_00I was in total disbelief.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna be honest. I was in total disbelief. I just didn't think, I said, there's no way that someone could walk up to someone's door, kill them in cold blood murder in front of their family, um, run for four months forward, and then get out. So it was, it was, it was just so confusing for me at the time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so um, after I um got off the phone and did my research, I the court date finally came. And um I want to say we got there, we talked to the lady, and um, she was explaining everything to us, and she was like, Unfortunately, I there's you're not your your family's not the only family. This proposition, which is Prop 57, um, let me explain it to you. And she kind of broke it down to us. She said, Okay, if someone is under the age of 25, and um we understand um that, you know, there's a lot of psychology behind it. And me, uh, with my psychology background, I understood when the frontal lobe develops, and they said for men it's a lot later. So this is what got that to pass, this proposition. And she said, with proposition 57, um, it initially was for nonviolent crimes. So any youth that commits a crime that is nonviolent um can cannot be sentenced to life in prison. There's been so many different amendments that have um gone into place with this proposition 57. And first it was just for nonviolent criminals. Then they added for teenagers that committed violent crimes uh because their frontal lobe was not developed. So this includes murder, rape, um, child molestation. If they're under the age of 25, they have the opportunity to get out. And that just made me. I think I was still processing at that time, just listening to her. And she was explaining everything to me. And I said, okay, I am going to go and um start doing my some more research, because this is just crazy. I think I was researching, trying to understand the proposition. And what I was able to really get from it was with proposition 57, it was very misleading. It was on the ballot and it says, Um, do you believe youth should be given a second chance? People are gonna see that and be like, oh, yeah, absolutely, right? We all, but it's very misleading. It does not say what it could is giving youth a second chance for. And I understand um it's very hard to overturn propositions that were voted by the people, right? Because the people said this is what they wanted, but the people weren't really clear on this California proposition 57, what it was.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm going over it, and you're absolutely right. So if you get an opportunity to have a second chance at life, who's gonna say, nah, I don't want that.
SPEAKER_03Right. Because we've all feel like we've been given second chance. Yes, right? Like uh, I was given a second chance. Sure, everyone should have the same thing.
SPEAKER_00Right. So that part I completely understood how, but it would again, it was misleading. And so uh finally she says, Okay, you guys are gonna go to court. But when we first got there, um we pulled up, and um I know uh my significant other shared this, uh, but we pulled up, not knowing. Um, we pull up um my car, my windows aren't tinted, and we think we're being courteous drivers, and we tell a car to go. We're like, oh yeah, you go ahead. We all park to go into the court hearing, and it is the guy who murdered my brother's family, the same family member that was trying to intimidate us at the original hearing 16 years ago. So that was kind of like whoa. But we go in, we talk to the DA, and then finally it's time for us to go into court. And um we go into court, and when I walk in, I was uh I've never been in a juvenile courtroom, so I did not know what to expect. But when we walked into this room, it's the size of like a bedroom. You see the judge in the front, you see the DA on one side, another DA, you have a bailiff, and then you have us. And there's only so many people that could fit in this room because it's so small. So they tell you you have a limit of four people that four people on each side, four, four people for his family, four people for our family. So we walk into this little bitty room, and I'm just like sitting there, and then you see him come from the back, and he comes from the back. Of course, he's uh in, you know, he's he has um cuffs on, and you know, he's walking in cuffs and he looks straight at us. And he you could literally, if you just walked a couple steps, you could touch him. So they put you in this room with this person who has murdered your family member, and the room is very, very small. Um, I think that so again, I'm trying to process like, am I really in the room? Like, wow, even before when it was a regular trial, I was it was a big courtroom. He was all the way over here. It was a big courtroom. Um, this was a little, a very, very, very tiny, small, confined space. And then um, they just got into um what his life was like in prison. They said he had never been in trouble before. Um, they asked questions, they went over the crime. So we're literally reliving the crime again. They're going over um the night that my brother was murdered, uh, where my brother was shot at, um, what shot, uh, which was through his back and it went through his heart, which actually um was the shot that killed him. So they're going through all this, they're going through the night.
SPEAKER_02Um and can you uh remind us once again how many times was your brother struck?
SPEAKER_00He was struck, uh, he was shot three times in the back.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I think two went like in his spine and then one went through his back and it like went through his heart.
SPEAKER_02Right. And and just while while I got you paused, um, I want to tell you that and and the listeners, uh a lot of people have a problem with this proposition. A lot of people have major issues with this, and I'm I'm looking at it right now, and and basically, you know, people didn't did not understand.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02And so they're they're really upset with uh a lot of the way this has been unrolled to them. So it's not surprising to me what you're saying, reading this stuff and hearing the story at the same time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it it and it's what they're doing, and I feel like is they are re-traumatizing families that have already gone through like heinous crimes and putting them back. So if a family has healed in any type of way, they're basically snatching that healing away and they're snatching away, you know, whatever justice they were given and putting them right back in the same space. And that's how I felt, especially when they make you go to a juvenile court, mind you, this is a 34-year-old man now. And they're referring to him as a minor. So they're in the court saying the minor because they they can only refer to him, right? Isn't this is it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02I I'm it made me feel embarrassed to even look at anybody because I'm like, that's that's crazy.
SPEAKER_00Right. But because he's in juvenile court, they can only refer to him as a minor. So they're saying the minor on this day because they can only try cases for minors, they can only go. Back. So the whole time this 34-year-old man is being referred to as a minor. The minor did this on this day. Mind you, this is a full-grown man. And um, they were just saying, Well, the minor on this day did this. And I that drove me crazy. I was I was not prepared for them to continue referring to him as a minor. So I know I was just like, What do you mean, the minor? Like, talk let's so everything that was talked about was talked about as if what had happened 16 years ago. Like now we're talking about it as if it happened today.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's ironic because you said earlier that time doesn't stop, the world continues. Yes, but yet you're called to be in a place where you in this court, we get to go back in time as if no time has happened.
SPEAKER_02And that's why I asked that question. That's a mind trip. It's not oh god, I'm not trying to set I wasn't trying to set you up, but I'm asking, does time heal everything? And you said no. Yes, and now they're telling you time can heal him.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02If you give him enough time, he gets he gets healing. Yes, but your your healing never comes. No. So that that's really putting me in an awkward position to be an interviewer because I'm trying to figure out how do you give one healing but can't give it to another. Right, right.
SPEAKER_03No, yeah, yeah. And let me not get I know this is your story, Crystal, but I know I love time. Like, so he was allowed to be treated as a minor and hold his actions according to that, but yet the minor whose life was taken is not there and given back his time, right?
SPEAKER_02And the adults that were there aren't given back their family member. Yes, so you got all these nuances, but you're only making provisions for one individual.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. Yes, the the youthful. Sorry, I'm I even the naming of that proposition.
SPEAKER_00What is it? Youthful, is it called the youthful? Um gosh, what is it called? The youthful, gosh, there's a couple different things. So it's about 57 and it's called the Youthful Offenders Act.
SPEAKER_03There you go. It's just an interesting word. Youthful is usually meant someone's full of youth, meaning they're young and vibrant, and that's a play on words, right? It was it couldn't be the minor or but you know, but the youthful, I can say Corey looks youthful and he's in his 50s. You know what I mean? Like that's a weird word for me. I don't know about that one. Let me not okay. I'm I'm digressing. Yeah, just okay.
Victim Impact Statements And Feeling Set Up
SPEAKER_00But no, yeah. So and and that I think that's the part that um is it was just it was the most confusing space I think that I've ever been in. And I think I'm still confused. It it's so confusing. Um, so when they have us in this room, they um he's literally look, he walks out, he smiles at his family, you know, they're smiling at him, and he sits down and they're just going through everything that the minor, you know, did at that time, even though he's 34 years old. And um, they did talk about the things, you know, the the shots that killed my brother. And um it was it was a lot to take in because it was just like you were reliving it all over again. And um they said we went through the first day, and they said um that first day we were we were able to read victim impact statements. So I went in there with a um a novel. I was ready. And um I read letters from my cousin that opened the door because she couldn't make it. I read a letter from um my brother's uh his his daughter's mother. I read a letter from um one of my other siblings. Um, because it it was very hard for people just could not go. People were like, I can't do this. Like it, especially after that first day, we were like, hey, this is a little bitty room, you're gonna be sitting there with him. People did not want to go. And um, I read the letter and I told the judge, I said, I'm asking you to keep him in here. Um, I said, please consider all the children that were in the home when he committed this crime. Please consider my cousins. Please consider my grandparents who saw their grandson on the ground. Uh, please consider everybody who was in the home. Not that um there is still impact to my family. Like you're thinking about him, but I need you to think about my family. I need you to think about my brother's daughter, who never got to know her father. I need you to think about, so I'm just going through this, and then my whole family read letters and we're thinking, okay, we we told her hopefully something will come. Um, hopefully she will understand. Like, please keep him in there. And she said, Okay, are you guys free to come back in two weeks? So it's just like, oh gosh. So we said, okay. And she said the judge is it's very intimate. So they're like, she's like, okay, what is your schedule looking like on this day? And I'm like, okay, I can take PTL on that day. And she said, okay, uh, come back to court in two weeks and we're gonna talk to the probation office. And this probation office is the people who he would be uh basically under probation with. Now, keep in mind this is not parole, this is probation. So this is um, this is juvenile probation. So this is when a juvenile goes steals something from the store and something happens. This is that probation. And so we want you guys to hear about the probation, and it's like oh that at this point.
SPEAKER_02Are you feeling set up? Yes. Can you explain that? J just that, you know, that feeling like everyone in their life has has been set up at some point in time where even if it was your your mom that said, Are you lying to me about this? And you say, No, but you know she set you up because she knows you you've done something. What was that feeling? What would what were you going through when you realized this this is a setup, they're gonna do this no matter what?
SPEAKER_00Well, after the first court date, I felt set up. Because I was like, oh, so we have to sit. It was the worst feeling ever. And I so something in me said, you know, I how am I gonna sit through all of this and sit and listen to what his life is gonna be like on the outside, and if they let him out, like they just are telling, they're given the opportunity, they're basically the setup felt like, okay, he's getting out because of this proposition, and we're gonna allow the family to hear the reasons why we're letting him out and what his life is gonna be like when he's out. So instead of, I didn't, that was not the phone call that came to me. She did say there is a chance that he will be getting out since because of this proposition, but I didn't know that we would be walked through his day-to-day. I did not know we would be walked through what his life would be like, and that is where the probation office. So after that first day, I just it it really felt like a setup. It's like I wish they would have just called and said, hey, he's getting out, and there's gonna be several court hearings. And if you want to show up to make a statement, make a statement. That I would have felt more better with that. So it definitely was a setup, but I think they do that to kind of, as sad as it sounds, kind of ease the family into like the pain slowly. Like we're not gonna make it hurt that bad. We're gonna stick the knife in, but we're not gonna twist it. Yes, yet. We're gonna stick it in, you're gonna say ow, and then slowly but surely we're gonna twist it. And that's what it felt like.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna be honest about this. I would rather just not know at all. Yes, just do what you're gonna do. Yes, don't don't bother about calling me, don't bother about having me show up and and then give me these lessons that you're gonna do. And I know everybody doesn't want to feel that, but me personally, I would just rather not know anything at all.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I honestly, the what it did to me mentally, um, I probably it probably would have been better if I had not known because I had to relive it all over again. Meanwhile, the holidays are here. We're at Christmas now, Christmas 2025, and um we're still going to court. So, yes, it I I probably would I have been shocked if I was walking around um, I don't know, at the Ontario meals and I saw him, that probably would have been shocking for me. But it I wish I would have just got the call like, hey, he's getting out because of new proposition. Um, sorry to tell you guys. Um, can I get your address for what's gonna happen next? That that would have been better. But putting us in a room with him and his family, that that, and just hearing what his day-to-day would be like, that that was painful. That that hurt. That that did something to me. All I could do afterwards was um after that first court case, I think, where did we go off the freeway? We had just, we were like, we didn't eat that day. We had just gone to um, gosh, what's that place? I love it. It's off the 210 right here. We just said, uh, what was it called?
unknownTexas Roadhouse.
SPEAKER_00Texas Roadhouse. We went there because we were just like, we need to eat something because I just that's what we and so uh that was like our our thing to like go to Texas Roadhouse after these uh crazy court hearings because it was like we gotta find something that like some normalcy, something that you do together that takes you away from that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I wanted to ask you, and I I think I lost the question, but here's one that comes up for me, Crystal, is it's a different court hearing or court case. Do they bring up who he is now and now that he served so many years? What what what are your thoughts? What were you thinking? Why'd you do this? How are you different? How do we know this isn't gonna happen again? Like was that there that line of questioning?
SPEAKER_00It was that line of questioning from the DA. Um, and all they could say was he had a clean record. Uh, the whole time he had never gotten it, they ran with he had never been in uh trouble one time in these 16 years. Um, but he was on a separate unit. And what we found out is he was housed with people who did have uh mental health issues. So he was diagnosed with uh bipolar and schizophrenia. So he was on a unit with people that did have bipolar and schizophrenia. He was given medicine um three times a day, uh, I think once in the morning, once in the evening, and then once at night. And he had gone through these um programs where he had like um he had they and they also said that he they did some type of um, I want to say it was some type of, I don't know, testing, but they said his brain was at like a uh uh fifth grade level, fifth grade level, if that. And they said that um they brought up his childhood. It was they brought up the fact that he was taken from his mom by CPS uh two different occasions. Um, they brought up that he was teased. They did everything to make him look like he was the victim. They said he was teased in um junior high school and elementary school because he was in certain classes. His mother was taken, he was taken away from his mother multiple times in CPS. He went to prison for this murder. He did not he did not do anything else after the murder. So they were creating a story like, hey, this was a uh someone who had a very hard childhood that got in trouble, went to jail, and didn't do anything um after that. But what I just mean what I did, I always was looking up information to anything that I could look up for this person. And again, that was not the case. He had opened multiple Facebook accounts in prison. Anybody who knows him can look him up on Facebook. He has all of these different prison Facebook accounts up, throwing up the gang signs and all of that. But so immediately after that first hearing when they're talking about, oh, he was, you know, he hasn't gotten in any trouble. I immediately after we left Texas Roadhouse, I went home and I pulled up his Facebook and I sent those to the DA. And I said, okay, so this is the per I I want to be clear, this is the person that is going that this is the person. So I sent them all the pictures, all the stuff. I just his he had opened a Facebook, I want to say initially when he first got in jail, and I reported it, and I think they shut it down. I used I used to, I'm when I tell you I was following you or diligent. I was diligent. I would say, I'm gonna be honest with you, I was diligent for about a good seven years. Just seeing if he was active on any social medias. Because you know, now in jail they have phones, they have everything in there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Tablets.
SPEAKER_02I did not know this. I'm I'm thinking, I guess I'm and and they get education.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I mean, they get everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I'm I'm I don't know anything about the system. So I'm thinking, and I hate to even be this dated, but I'm thinking busting rocks or making license putting some something to that, you know, not in there having fun and playing games and getting their exercise, getting all of it.
SPEAKER_03Right, all of that. Wow, okay.
SPEAKER_00And so he oh no, go.
SPEAKER_03I'm so sorry. No, no, it's okay. Because there is gonna be a call for action, I hope, by the end of this episode. Definitely. So the difference between probation and parole, can you give us briefly what what the difference is?
Parole Versus Probation And Prison Claims
SPEAKER_00Yeah, with the parole, you're going to, you know, you go up for, I guess, a parole hearing, and then you see a you have a parole officer. And with the parole officer, they're gonna, you know, whether when you go to the office, you're gonna have to um, I don't know if they're gonna make you, you know, urine in a cup and they're gonna check you for if you've had any drugs in your system. They can just pop up at your house. When you're on parole, you may not be able to go leave the state. You there, there's so many different um things that come with parole. Like we're letting you out, but this is what you can and can't do. So you're still, you're not, you're you're out, but there's still there's still certain rules that you have to follow. And I think that is my thought of um what parole is versus probation. It's just you just check in and you're like, hey, probation officer, I'm I'm here, I'm not in any trouble. And they just kind of sign you off saying you came in to see them, basically. So it's a little different.
SPEAKER_03You get to you get to do um one's a lot more intense.
SPEAKER_00And is there a time difference or is it just very it just varies, and I guess it depends on what uh they say that you know, whatever time frame you need to be on parole or you need to be on probation. And um, his was gonna be probation for two years. And I have to share something with you guys that it it it was, I don't even know if I've shared this with you yet, Corey. Um initially it was two years. Um so we we go to all of these different um court hearings, and we go to that, we get a phone call, and we're like, oh, the lady that is gonna be his probation officer was I I believe she was she had a medical emergency. So I said, Oh, okay. So they're like, yeah, we're gonna delay this for another month. So let's see, August here girls, September. They said we're gonna lay it, delay it for another month. Here comes October. October comes and um she was still having the medical emergency. So um we went back, but we didn't talk to her. We talked to somebody else. And what this person did was they explained to us this new program that uh juveniles that commit murders or commit these crimes go through. And this program I want to say is called Rise. I don't know, it's like the RISE program or something. And what it is is when you commit a murder and you are under a certain age, you go through this nine-month program. After the nine-month program, if you commit murder, you are released after nine months. And she was saying that this is such a new program that they don't really have data showing the success of it, but this is what it is now, right? And so the lady in charge of the program now that is in California, that these juveniles go through, was talking about the program, saying basically, if he would have committed the crime now, he would have gotten nine months and he would have been released. So we sat through that, and we I was like, whoa. So she went through this program. So and it made me think of like these little cousins and nieces and nephews that I have, and it made me realize. So I walked out and I said, So you mean to tell me today, if someone was to hurt someone in my family again, or if anybody else gets murdered, they go through this nine-month program? She said yes. I said, Oh.
SPEAKER_03And if that's if they're 25 and under, or under 25.
SPEAKER_00Under 25. So what what it is is um everything else between 18 and 25 is being uh like how do you say retroactive? But up, I believe, up into there's like there's certain, there's all little different things that they put into place with this law. But they're gonna get out after nine months. Nine months for murder is what it is now. Um, and you go through this program. That's just what it is. So we had to sit through hearing what it would be like if he would have committed the crime now and what this program was.
SPEAKER_02Was that supposed to make you feel more at ease? Or was what was the purpose of that?
The RISE Program And Nine Months
SPEAKER_00That is what I was thinking. I said, why this doesn't make any sense? And I never forget uh there was this bailiff in there, and he was just the whole time he was just shaking his head because it's so small, so you're so close to the bailiff, and he was just like he would just shake his head every court hearing, and I don't know, I don't know why, but he always stood out to me because it was just like he probably felt like this proposition was ridiculous. But again, he's the bailiff, and um, so that was the third court date. So we're in August, September. They said um, you know, the lady had a medical emergency. October, she still had the medical emergency, but we still went to court and talked to her coworker that is walking us through the program. So October comes in, we're in November, and we have to go to another court date. So it's just it's just dragging on. And it it felt like a nightmare. I just wanted it to be over. I'm like, okay, this is the fourth time I've sat in this little bitty room with this guy that murdered my brother. They continue to refer to him as a minor. He's not a minor, he's a 34-year-old man. What I will say is when I first walked in the room and I saw him, I felt for that moment time has stopped because he looked exactly the same. He didn't look older. I mean, he when I last time I saw him, he was 18. So between 18 and 34, you changed, but he still looked like the same, nothing changed with him. Like he looked exactly the same. Maybe he's got a you know a little muscles now, but he looked exactly the same. So it was just like just it was still so fresh for me. Um, so he would sit in there and they would call him the, you know, refer to him as the youth, and they would go over everything that he had accomplished and what this new program was gonna look like. So after they, the court case in October, um, they said, okay, next month we are gonna go and the probation, you're gonna hear the probation officer. And it probably was the end of um October. So November was like two weeks later, it was before the holidays. And um we go and um they're like, Okay, how do you know he attended all of his counseling? How do you know he's done this? How do you know he's done that? And the probation officer was like, Well, I didn't bring anything with me. And the judge was like, What do you mean you didn't bring anything with you? Where okay, can you guys leave the courtroom? So we had to leave the courtroom and she brought us back in. She's like, Being that the uh probation officer did not come prepared, I need you guys to come back next week. And I'm just like, oh God, this is just dragging on. And we said, Okay, she said, What does your schedules look like? We went back the next week, and um when we went back the next week, she had all her paperwork that she had done to research his case and why he was a good fit for this program, uh, this, that, and the third. And the judge just said, Okay, you guys, um come back and I'll let you know what I um what my decision is. And um I said, Okay.
SPEAKER_02So I'm so nervous, Crystal. It it's it's it's like you're on the the brink of telling us this awful news and this torturous. It is. I can just imagine how your emotions are up and down and up and down, and they they pause for the med medical emergency. So what's happening? Are they gonna throw it out? Are they gonna stop the program? Are they gonna, and then you gotta go back, and now you're back in this roller coaster.
Release Decision And Record Sealed
SPEAKER_00It's it was it when I tell you it was an emotional roller coaster, and then each day we're pulling up, you know, each time we have to go back to court, we have to, we have to go in. So now I'm familiar with what his family's car looked like. So I'm making sure we park nowhere near his family because you know, that first interaction. So, and it was just every day going, and his family sits right here, my family sits right here, his family goes in first, and our family goes in. It was torture. It literally felt like torture every time I went. And then keeping when I had to keep going back, then it's like, okay, we go through again, we go to this little bitty juvenile court, we go through the metal detectors, and we sit in this little bitty room. So it became just a all right, I guess this is what it is now. And it was, it was, it was so heartbreaking. And then that very last um court case, we walk in and um I knew, I mean, I I knew it, I knew, and uh the judge says, Um, okay, I've made a decision, and she says, Um, I've listened to both sides, and um he's gonna be let out. Um, and but the issue was his mom lived in Pomona, his mom lived in Pomona, and they were letting they were releasing him to his mother, and they said he will be on probation, and she read down everything, and she said his probation will be two years. And then the DA, um, his attorney said, Well, you know, in this probation, it says that he can't drink alcohol, but he is an adult now, so can he drink alcohol? Alcohol now, and the judge said yes. Meanwhile, his family is in there celebrating, giving each other a hug, just so happy. And my family is distraught.
SPEAKER_02I'm not a doctor.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_02Nor do I claim to be one. But there he's being told, well, we're being told that he's on medication for disorders.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And we're asking about alcohol.
SPEAKER_00So he could celebrate when he was getting out. And we sat through that. They asked him, and the judge said, you know what? He is not a juvenile. He can drink alcohol. And she's going through everything he can do. At that time they acknowledged that he's not a juvenile. That was the only time they acknowledge he wasn't a juvenile. The only time. Was she a part-time doctor?
SPEAKER_02No. I'm confused.
SPEAKER_00I was shocked. I was shocked. I sat there and they just said, okay. And this is what really um broke my heart. They're like, and then after, as of today, as of whatever day it will be, you will no longer have a your record will be expunged. So he does not have a record. His he will have a juvenile record that'll be sealed. He had an adult record. So they said, just basically, this is go go on with your life now. You're about to get out. We're gonna, you're gonna go to West Valley and your family could meet you on the side. And um this is just what it's gonna be. And um they said, does the family have anything to say? And I said, Ooh, bingo, I got action. And I said, Yes, I have something I want to say. And I told the judge, I stood up and I said, Um, since you are okay with allowing him to go free, I hope you are okay since the holidays are here, allowing him to have dinner with you and your family. I said, if you feel I will follow him just like I've been following him. And if he gets in trouble and if he hurts another family member, I will be sure to say your name. You are the judge that allowed him to commit this crime again. I said, I did some research because I wanted to know who you were and what kind of person you were. Um, as I was coming in.
SPEAKER_02You're talking about the judge.
SPEAKER_00I told the judge, yeah. Okay. And I said, I wanted to know what type of person you are. Um, because so I just looked you up and I saw that you were recently, um, you and your husband were recently put in place by governor Gavin Newsom. I see that you're a local here. I see that you went to the University of Laverne. So you are allowing this person that is in your community to be out. And I hope that he doesn't hurt somebody that you know or someone in your family. And that's all I have to say. And she looked shocked. She looked me straight in my eye, and she said, all she said was, I am upholding the new law, and that is what it is. And I just felt like I told, I felt like, hey, and again, I'm gonna follow him. I I told her I had looked her. And the reason why I wanted her to know this is because I just wanted to know like what type of person she was, because I am gonna be honest with you guys. When I walked in the courtroom, you always look at the judge and you're like, man, does this person look mean? I think we all do it. We look at someone and we have a thought on what we think they may be. This is just human, um, this is just human nature. You they you have a you see someone and you have a thought on what they may or may not be look like, what they may or may not be like. Right. Like, man, that person may look a little meaner. Man, that person looks really nice. You know, we all have it subconsciously, we all do it. But with me doing that, I actually was like, I'm gonna Google this judge. I'm gonna look her up. I've been in one of these courtrooms uh with her, and I think what made me do it, I'm be uh tell the truth. I walked in and I was like, oh, why does she look so young? This is a very young judge. Like, oh God, is she gonna have sympathy for him? Like, um, so I just I did a lot of research on who she was, and I was able to figure out what college she went to, who appointed her. Um, and so that was just some other when I say I'm a researcher, I just I will research some stuff and look it up and study it. And I so I made I let her know that I had researched her and I hope she's comfortable letting him back into the community that she lives in, and I hope that she's comfortable bringing him to her house for Christmas since it was the holiday time. Wow.
SPEAKER_03Hearing what you told the judge gave me goosebumps, yeah. So um bold and courageous, non-threatening, but real.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um because I think it is different, these people that the powers in place.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03If this was your story, how would this have changed? Right, right. What what would the outcome have been?
Petition To Reform Prop 57
SPEAKER_02I think we can ask that question to anybody hearing the story and anybody involved in this story, and and that's on the flip side of each family. And I I think the answer is gonna be a lot the same from every angle you ever ask it. No, I don't see anyone saying, Oh, yeah, this would be a great idea if I was in this position.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, Christopher, I'm I'm gonna move us along. Um there's a call to action, there's uh more information to be found out. There is um things that you're pursuing actively right now. Can you can you fill us in on that stuff?
SPEAKER_00Yes, so I have a uh petition at change.org, and that is just a call to action to try to get this prop uh proposition 57 uh some type of um whether it can be not necessarily turned over, but have some of those amendments taken out. So um I will provide the link and it's just to get the word out there. There's so many people trying to get this um proposition overturned or making uh just making some changes to it because there's so many different amendments attached. But the original proposition is that's not what it is anymore. And it's just that is my call to just try to do whatever if I have to go to Sacramento. And I follow a lot of Facebook groups that are working for the same cause to try to get this overturned. And there's um several different families that I follow, and one is just so heartbreaking. Her son was um murdered at the um, I want to say the mall in Merino Valley. And of course, because of this, the guy got nine months, so the guy is out, and this poor mother, um I follow her, and it is just heartbreaking because again, I'm seeing what the outcome is uh how this is still impacting families and what other families are going through. So it is um on change.org and it is just to reform Prop 57. And when you go to the um change.org, you'll see my brother's story, uh, what our family has gone through, and how many signatures have uh how many people have signed the proposition to try to get this um overturned. You know, once you have enough signatures, you can kind of take it up. So that's where we're at. And I'm working with some other families that also have some um petitions uh for this same proposition. So there's gonna be some uh work in the background. My goal long term is just some time to just um in the in the future just be a resource for families that are going through this and um just so they can have somebody to talk to that has actually gone through this because the trauma that it retakes you, I was not prepared for this. And I think families need to be prepared. And there's gonna be other families going through this that may not have certain resources. Um, they may not be able to be like, oh man, I got to go see my therapist. You know what I mean? Like, I need to go talk to my counselor. There's like you put these families through this again, not knowing how it will impact them. So I definitely want to be a voice to other families that are going through this and just being just a just whether it's a ear, um, just to listen, or just to be a shoulder, you know, that they can cry on because this is heavy. And the fact that I am just learning about this as of August 2025, I mean, the it it I guess it went through January 2025, but I had just learned about it. So I just want to put the word out there because had it not been for my family going through this, I still would have no idea about this proposition and the changes in the California laws. I would have had no idea. I would have had no idea that within nine months, um, if you murder someone and you're under 18, you are doing nine months and you're going through this nine month program. That is what it is. And even if you've gone to juvenile hall multiple times, say for instance, you've gone to juvenile hall four times, and then your fifth time for going, you kill somebody. You are getting nine months. Um, she said it's very hard. You can get up to seven years, but it's very hard to get to seven years in California. And that is just where we're at.
SPEAKER_03Here's another irony to me. Whoever created the RISE program for nine months, nine months is what it takes for a woman to carry a child and give life. Yes. So out of all the time spans, you choose the nine months when life is conceived up until birth to say you get nine months to make amends or repair or heal from the life that you've taken. Do you you see what I mean? Like, even that is a slap in the face. Like, what is the intention there? I always have to ask those things. When you're creating these programs and we're talking about life, you choose to take the lifespan that it takes for pregnancy, the whole thing. That's that's that's something that is really staying with me right now. Um, and you mentioned the the text that you got, and it's from victims of violence.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And I'm not this is just me exploring my emotions first time hearing this story. There's such a thing as victims of the justice system, too. And what does that look like? Right? Because that's that's a whole nother group. Yes. Um, and I really want to encourage everyone who's listening to get to that website because even though we don't have someone who's been murdered, this is impacting our community when you think about the fact that we can we walk these streets and there are people under 25 who can take your life. Yes, and it would be treated as a nine-month program for your life. Yes. And so this is gonna unfortunately cause chaos and havoc. Yes. And um, I'm I'm like just deep in prayer right now as as we're talking about this. So another one more thing I wanted to mention is you said that you experience life and it's the first Christmas, first birthday without him, and you've proceeded and you have beautiful family rituals and traditions that you've incorporated. And I really, Crystal and Jonathan and the whole family and friends, um, you are experiencing another first. This year you'll be experiencing his birthday, Christmas Father's Day, knowing that his murderer is out free.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03And there's no record. That's the thing, too. There's no record of what he's done as if it didn't even exist. Yes. So that to me is enough to say this is this is wrong, this is an injustice, and his life matters enough for us to say we need to partner up with people and support that these amendments do need to happen. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And and I want to close my part with this. Um, Crystal, you've opened my eyes to something that is going to be dear to me for the rest of my life. We not only have to learn more about this prop, but we also have to be more aware of all the propositions, all the things that are coming out. Because if they can roll something out this strange and heinous, what else is coming out?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02It's our job as a community, if we're signing these props, to research them, investigate them, and make sure they're aligning with what the people really want.
How To Elevate Through Grief
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. No, I agree a hundred percent. The the proposition again was very misleading, and uh because of it, you know, people voted for it. And um, he is out, and I just wanted to add one more thing for you guys. Um, I did get a phone call from um LA County probation office, and they asked for my address because they want to send the family restitution, which there's no money that you can pay us for what we've gone through, but um, they were doing the restitution talk, and just so you guys know, the they felt that since he had done his time, that he did not need probation. I did not go to the probation hearing because I was too at this point when he gets out, I'm walking through the same doors as him. He's not coming out from the back. So I do get alerts. I I'm told all of his probation hearings. And as of his last probation hearing, um, the judge felt that he didn't need to be on probation um because he had did more time than most people. So he is not on probation as of like uh two weeks ago. So there's no probation. He is just out um in the community. So yeah, that decision was made two weeks ago, and I just told them I'm not going. When that decision was made, I was given the phone call, but I just said I'm not going. I'm not walking in the courtroom with him. I'm not doing that. But what the decision that was made, which I'm thankful I didn't go, was that he would not be on probation. So there is no probation for him. Um, he is just out, and that is what it is as of two weeks ago.
SPEAKER_03So many levels to this story, Crystal, and I wanted to be intentional about as we close this episode. So, of course, thank you. Thank you. Thank you both. Um, and you know, the thing about Take Deliver and any any episode, anything that's being put out there is that these episodes will be heard now and into the future, maybe when we're not even here. So the question that we have for you is for people who are going through this type of loss and grief, how do you elevate in these moments? How do you stay in it?
SPEAKER_00I think um that is a really good question. And what I would say is that um the way you elevate, gosh, and I think that is gosh, that is a really good question. And I think just being present in your pain, I think a lot of times when people go through painful things, you kind of do things to fill the void or to get away with it. I think you can elevate by sitting where you're at. I think I mentioned at the very beginning, um, you know, when you go through things, it's kind of like um you have to, I go through things, but I I'm also very intentional about growing through things because anything that I go through that's very painful, I always ask myself, what am I going to learn from this? What is going to be the lesson? And that can be very hard as well. And I think when we talk about elevating, I think there's so many different ways, but just going back, sitting in those moments. Just how you sit in those moments when things are going very, very good and you're celebrating, you have to be able to sit in those moments when they're not and get and sit in it and go through it and just allow yourself to feel, allow yourself to hurt, allow yourself to feel that pain. And once you have felt it, eventually I think the pain gets easier. It's just kind of like a a wound, right? Eventually, if you break a bone, even it's gonna hurt, it's gonna hurt for a while, but eventually it gets better. You may have a limp, you know, it's it's still there, things will happen, but eventually the pain will subside. And I think that is how you elevate by just sitting in those moments and allowing them to pass. Because I think with everything, we always say, you know, this too shall pass. And it does pass. And again, going back to the healing part, there's gonna be different ways that you heal. Um, but I think it's just it's it's it's not again, I don't think that is linear as well when we talk about healing. But when we talk about elevate, I think it's uh allowing yourself like elevate. When I think of elevate, I think of going up and down, right? So I allow, allow yourself to elevate, allow yourself to go up and down, allow yourself to have those good days, allow yourself to have those bad days. But just how the with the weather, weather doesn't stay bad forever. You're gonna have those rainy days, you're going to have those days where it's thundering and lightning, and then you're gonna have those days where it is a beautiful 85 degrees with a with a with a nice breeze, and just know that the weather will always change. And I think just keeping those things close to your mind and to your heart and just understanding that will allow you to elevate. Beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, Crystal. Thank you so much for for sharing this chapter of your book. You know, you always tell us, tell me that, you know, we're all books, we all have different chapters. Yes. Thank you for sharing this chapter with us. Um, I I hope we have some pretty good sunny days with a nice breeze uh in the very near future. And um we're gonna have a another part of the story developing uh very soon here, and we'll we'll announce that as we get closer to that date.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, okay. Well, you know us to take the elevator. We say look up and let's elevate every day, elevate every day, elevate every day elevate.
