The Science of Personality Podcast
The Science of Personality Podcast
Hogan Roundtable
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In the latest episode of The Science of Personality, Blake and Jackie are joined by Christopher Duffy, Hogan's director of strategic accounts, and Jennifer Lowe, Hogan's director of solution delivery and learning, for a fascinating journey through Hogan history and lore. Having a combined nearly 60 years of Hogan experience, Chris, Jennifer, and Jackie have worked directly with some of the world's largest organizations, and this episode explores their favorite client projects, their biggest challenges, and their favorite tales from their time at Hogan.
But the other way I I think is in how we are sort of like a family, maybe a like a weird, mildly dysfunctional one at times. But um, I don't know if you can see behind me, but the those pictures on my wall, I have my children, my husband, my dog, and I have Paris's up there, Jennifer's up there. On my these people are my family at Hogan. And there are a few others up there as well. But I think that we are a company who cares deeply about our our work and our customers, but also each other. And you know, I shared a little bit at the beginning about why I came here and why I wasn't in kind of fell in love with Hogan, the company, the concept, the mission, but different things at different points in time have kind of kept me here.
SPEAKER_01People are the most consequential and dangerous forces on earth. Personality psychology is about the nature of human nature, it's about people. And wouldn't that be useful to know?
SPEAKER_05Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Science of Personality Podcast. I'm your host, Blake Lepp, and I'm joined again by my co-host Jackie Somme for a conversation with two special guests. First, I'd like to introduce Christopher Duffy, Hogan's Director of Strategic Accounts. Chris has been with Hogan for almost two decades, and during his tenure, he has worked directly with some of the largest companies in the world and continues to do so. Our other guest is Jennifer Lowe, Hogan's Director of Solution Delivery and Learning. Jennifer, or J Lo, as we commonly know her at Hogan, has also been at Hogan for nearly 20 years, working closely with a variety of clients in the public, private, and government sectors. So when you combine Chris, Jennifer, and Jackie's time at Hogan, we're talking about nearly 60 years of experience. And that's exactly why we wanted to do this episode. Today, I plan to tap into that knowledge, expertise, and Hogan longevity so they can share their stories, whether it's their favorite client projects, their biggest challenges, or just some of their favorite tales from their time at Hogan. So strap in and get ready for a fascinating journey through Hogan history and lore. But before we get to our conversation, if you wish to give us any ideas for upcoming episodes, or you want to ask us a question, shoot us an email at hello at the science of personality.com or drop a comment on this YouTube video or follow the science of personality on LinkedIn. Now, let's get to it. Chris, Jennifer, welcome to the podcast. Is there anything you'd like to share with our audience before we get started?
SPEAKER_02Hey, thanks, Blake. Um, when I got the initial request, I couldn't believe that it had been almost 20 years since I've been at Hogan. Over that time, I've had the privilege of working with some amazing clients, some extremely talented uh colleagues. So I was really happy to see our topic today, and we get to share some of those experiences, especially that I got to share the stage with Jennifer, because she and I have shared many of those experiences along our journey at Hogan.
SPEAKER_03We have indeed, Chris. Um Jackie, thank you for the invitation. Really looking forward to the discussion today and the walk down memory line. Um I know we're trying to keep a PG today. There can certainly be some interesting stories here at Hogan, but really looking forward to sharing the journey with everyone.
SPEAKER_05Well, Jackie, I mean, you've worked with both of these people for a while. So uh what were your thoughts whenever I brought this idea to you for this episode?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, uh first of all, there are two, there are no two other people I'd rather sit around a campfire with and and share stories from yesteryear. Um, but more importantly, there aren't two other people I'd rather jump into a foxhole with than these two that are sitting right here. So we've really been through a lot together the good, the bad, the unspeakable, um, and everything in between. So uh this is gonna be fun for us on on multiple levels, but also just really um really enjoyable to take a walk down memory lane together.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, I've been at Hogan for 12 years. And so whenever I got to Hogan, I mean, the three of you seem like really seasoned vets. And you know, now I'm here 12 years, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, you know, but you also feel like kind of like that. I I know, but uh it still feels like I think now that because I have the shortest tenure at Hogan at 12 years compared to the two of or the three of you, uh, it it almost feels like you all are part of that that old guard. Forgive me for saying old. I don't mean that in the in the the age uh uh context, but I actually just mean that because you know, you all you all had already seen a ton of stuff by the time I got there, and you know, I didn't know anything about this field, and I've learned so much from from all of you in in this time. So I appreciate that, and I appreciate you taking the time for this. So let's jump right in. You know, Chris, Jennifer, I mentioned in the intro that the two of you have been at Hogan for you know quite some time. In fact, you're two of the longest tenured employees in Hogan history, not just who's at Hogan now, but who's been at Hogan before. So that begs the question: what is it about Hogan that's kept you here for so long?
SPEAKER_03Thanks, like that's a question that has definitely required um you know some reflection. It's been it's been a long journey, and you know, I think probably similar to Jackie in a lot of ways. We have we've grown up at Hogan. The organization has really changed and evolved. Um, when I started at Hogan, I think there were 40 employees, and the vast majority of us um you know sat in one building and spent you know our days sharing offices and collaborating. And I think that's one of the things that really continues to keep me at Hogan is just the opportunity to work with really amazing, brilliant, creative people who continue to challenge me every day. Um, it really has been an adventure. Our client engagements really give us the opportunity to think about how we're gonna apply the assessments, and you know, we continue to grow and evolve. So for me, it's been about you know the continued challenge and opportunity. And even after 18 years, each day is kind of starting anew, something new and different to look forward to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks, Blake. And the only thing I'd add to that as well, I have a kind of Hogan profile that tell you I'd never be at any one organization for almost 20 years. I like variety, I like change, I like challenge. I think those are all things that Hogan has provided to me over my career. Jennifer was spot on. We work with some of the most talented people in the entire industry. We solve really complex and challenging problems for our clients. So I think just that continued uh feed of those values is really what's kept me here at Hogan. It's kept me extremely satisfied. And really, as I think in reflection, it just amazes me that I've been here as long as I've been. And as I was preparing for this particular session, it made you realize that we have accomplished a lot over those 20 years at Hogan.
SPEAKER_00It's funny you say that. What about you? Yeah, I was just gonna say, I we didn't co corroborate on this, but I was gonna share that for those of you who are Hogan certified, I have very low security, single-digit, very low tradition score. So I'm the kind of person you would not expect to stay at a company for two years, let alone, you know, almost 20. So um, same, same, Chris. I think when I think back on what why I why I'm here, what drew me here, I I recall with such crisp um recollection the first day I walked into the building at Hogan. And it was the it is a very unusual and in my opinion, a wonderful culture at Hogan at that time. And it's changed a little bit over time, but there are some things that have stayed evergreen. And here are these people walking around in blue jeans and flip-flops or sneakers, and they're some of the most brilliant minds in the profession, but they come as they are, and they're dogs running around the building. It's um it's a workplace where you get to be yourself, and yet you are challenged every single day by, to Jennifer's point, the creative, brilliant people, both inside our company, but also the clients that we work with are just tremendous. We we call many of them friends, in addition to colleagues and customers. Um, and you know, despite the fact that it was this casual come as you are culture, you get out on the road and you get in front of customers, and here's the same person who wore flip-flops yesterday, and they're standing in a three-piece suit and just just dazzling the the crowd at a presentation or a conference. So um it was this juxtaposition that was really fascinating to me. And then beyond that, the content itself, you know, what we work with, the signs of personality to me, I think to many others, if you're listening to this podcast, you may uh be in in good company with uh with the four of us here, but it's endlessly fascinating. I am learning constantly every single day. I always find something new to be intrigued by, or some other facet of what we do to go down a rabbit hole and do research on or or think deeply about. So I think um it's one thing to like the mechanics of your job, but it's another thing to have a like a deep intellectual connection with the work that you do and the and therefore the people that you do that work with. So I think that's a huge part of what keeps me here. And I'm and I think many others share that. And the last thing I would say, and I'm I think you know, Jennifer and Chris are just getting warmed up here, but I know for a fact, because I've worked with these people, two people very, very closely over these 19 years, um, our purpose. I mean, we're a very mission-directed company, and I think that's a huge part of what draws people here, but also what keeps their commitment to the organization.
SPEAKER_05You know, I want to echo something Chris said, and I I think um, you know, you mentioned values uh specifically, and you know, I mentioned earlier, I'm I've been at Hogan for 12 years, you know, that's still quite a while. Um I came out of college or you know, university, whatever you want to call it, and I spent my first five years at a at a PR agency in Tulsa, and I was like, okay, that's a good start, you know. I got a lot of good experience, but a a client hired me as a marketing director at a at a bank, and I went there, thought I was gonna love it. I'd worked with them for two, three years. I got there, and I didn't know anything about values at the time. I didn't I didn't know anything about Hogan. And I was only there for a year and a half, and I was I got bored, some wasn't clicking, and the opportunity at Hogan presented itself, and I interviewed, and I it felt right for me to leave the the job I was at, even though I was only there a year and a half. And I didn't know until after a couple years at Hogan, I realized my values weren't aligned with that organization. You know, you know, I think a bank, you know, you think high commerce, maybe high tradition. Well, I'm single digits on both of those. And I didn't know that at the time. And that's looking back, that's the reason. I was the fit for the job from a tech like from a if you look at the bright side, you know, the HPI, you know, you look at that. I was a good fit for the job, but not a good fit for the organization. And it was better for both of us to go our separate ways. So uh happy to be at Hogan, happy to be having this conversation. So let's move on to our the next question. You know, Chris, Jennifer, the two of you have countless client stories. I mean, I can't even imagine. I mean, I don't even know most of them. Uh, so I'm actually kind of like the the listener, part of the audience here. I'm I'm curious if you can, you know, there's some client stories you can share, some you can't, but uh would each of you mind sharing a story that stands out as particularly fun or memorable?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure, Blake. I'll get us started. Um, I've had the privilege of working across a pretty diverse client base over my career at Hogan, most of that work in leadership development, executive selection, executive development. Uh, but about six years ago, we had the opportunity to start working in professional sports. Um, and it's been a real fun and interesting departure that started with um we inserted Hogan into the NFL draft. And so for the last six years, we've been part of the NFL draft. And it's really, really interesting to take action of what I do at work and transfer that into something that I'm very interested in on the personal side. And so we've seen that expand and that growth. We're part of helping many NFL teams select and uh maximize performance of players that they have on their team. We've helped a handful of teams make sure that they have the right staff on board, and that staff has awareness around those players, how they best coach those players, how they best uh again maximize performance that expanded into the uh MBA. So our work in the NFL got us into the MBAs we've been supporting for the last three years, the MBA draft, um, helping organizations and teams make selections on players as they bring them in and consider the culture and the dynamics of the team. And then most recently, we've expanded into the major leagues as well. So and it always fascinates me when I think about client stories is that we go into organizations with one of these different disciplines, these different sports, and we think that the challenges are different, but in many cases they share very, very similar challenges. And so we're able to kind of transfer some of that knowledge that we've learned in one professional sport to help teams across uh other professional sports. So over the last really six or seven years, it's been it's been a fun departure from the norm, and I think we've made a tremendous impact. And it's always fun to see um the results of our efforts play out in front of us uh and and and the national audience and TVs on the weekends. So it's just been a fun departure.
SPEAKER_05What about you?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I I was just you know thinking about what Chris was sharing, and you know, so much of the work we get to do is really focusing on the you know the all-stars, whether it be on you know on the football field or in the the C-suite. And one of the more memorable client experiences that come to mind for me was was really all about that. So large consumer packaged goods organization, you know, a client that everyone on this call has engaged with at one point in time or another, um, really entrusted us in thinking about their next generation of leaders, really developing their high potential talent across the enterprise. And what was so memorable and really uh fun for me about this client engagement is it embodied all of the things that are so important to me at Hogan. We're able to bring our science into this organization and support leaders through what might feel like an NFL combine, right? They're coming together, they're um you know, they're engaging in interviews and they're on stage and they're they're going through coaching and 360s. But as a client team supporting this organization, it was so much fun to see the the evolution of these cohorts, um, you know, session after session, and also the time we got to spend together as consultants, as coaches to this client. Um, you know, these were these were long hours and long weeks. So a lot of time spent on the road, together really working through the talent review process, um, but knowing at the end of it there's such a huge impact. Um, supporting those and you know, getting a voice in this process, providing some really meaningful coaching and development as they continue to grow and you know in their own career as all-stars.
SPEAKER_05Jackie, you you were on the client side. You have to have a story for us as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's funny. I'm noticing a thread here across the three answers. And I don't I didn't know what Chris or Jennifer were going to say today. But my story, what's similar about it to what I've heard from these two is it involves a client who bring who has brought us in as a true partner. So it doesn't, you know, sometimes, and this is true, I think, in any business, if you're some of your customers treat you like a vendor, and some of your customers treat you like a partner or even a trusted advisor, or sometimes even closer than that, you know, a family member. Um and the customer projects that these two have described, I happen to know a little bit about each of them. And it's it's examples like that where we really get brought in and we get to not just create a much deeper impact, but we get to see the that impact and get to see it over time. So Chris gets to watch it play out on live TV every you know, Monday and Sunday, but and Thursday now. And you know, Jennifer, the project she's speaking about, I I had a chance to be a part of that as well. And it it's still top three in terms of my client most memorable and uh treasured client experiences. But the one I'm thinking of was very similar. It was one where I was brought in over a very long period of time in a large manufacturing organization, and the products that they create have a tremendous impact on human safety. So they their products are involved in transporting people all over the world. And so leadership, you know, Dr. Hogan has this expression that is very simple and straightforward, but profoundly true, which is leadership matters. And we believe that wholeheartedly, leadership really does matter. But when you're you know dealing in a company like this, leadership matters in a on a level that is hard to even wrap your head around, where you know, the decisions that they make have life and death consequences in in some cases, or you know, have impact impact on the world economy in ways that you know is it's hard to really um come to grips with the the breadth and depth of that impact of their leadership. And it's not to say that the one Hogan assessment they took is gonna, you know, change all of that, but you know, in a lot of cases we are a part of the decision process. We we advise our these clients on, you know, who's the best candidate to lead this um, you know, this organization into the future and why or what um what development needs do they have that could that could stand in their way and how do we help fill those gaps? So and in many cases you get to see the impact of what you've done play out, not maybe not on national TV. I don't I've not had that yet, Chris, but um on on the news for sure, on primetime news, sometimes you see both the positive and negative consequences of what leadership decisions are, what impact leadership decisions are having on the world. And sometimes that is um incredibly encouraging, right? You see a leader that you were you were part of their development journey and you see that they're making a positive impact in the world. I've other I've also seen other situations where there was a leader that, you know, we predicted would struggle and would have, you know, major development needs, and then they end up in the news for not so good reasons, right? Uh and that that is it is those kinds of projects I always come back to and and and think about when I'm asked questions like this.
SPEAKER_05You know, that's it it's crazy. The common theme I'm seeing here is like this is high stakes stuff. I mean, and that's why, you know, people might think, oh, we can't afford to invest in this type of thing. But when you're talking about, you know, these large corporations or these um these athletes coming out of college, you know, with the NFL or something like that. I mean, the getting making the wrong choice is way more costly than than you know, finding a well-validated personality assessment to actually put people through. I'm not gonna sit here and just preach Hogan, but you know, we just say well-validated, you know, pick pick pick and choose what you want. We think we're the best. You can you can make your own decision on that, but you can't let that that uh cost be the barrier to entry for this whenever the stakes are so high. And I think it's really cool to hear that you do all this. And then Jackie, like you said, watching primetime news. You know, I'm not on the client-facing side so much at all. Um but I do hear, you know, things here and there, like, oh, we were involved in this or that, and then to hear my friends talking about can you believe how great this person is doing at XYZ organization, or my gosh, have you seen this? And I I can't say anything, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, oh well, we told them they shouldn't have picked that person, or you know, or or like, yeah, or hey, yeah, that was our choice. So that's it's so cool to see that. You're right. It's the the magnitude of what the work you all are doing or have done is just incredible. Okay, so I'm um none of these projects come without challenges. I mean, some of these things aren't easy, they're complex. What we do is complex, just the nature of it. Uh so I'm I'm curious to hear, you know, from from all three of you. Jackie, you thought you were just coming in as kind of the host here. You're you're just as much a guest as Chris and JLo are. So you know what what about challenging projects? Would you mind sharing a story where you encountered obstacles and maybe how you got to a success successful solution?
SPEAKER_03Like I can kick us off here.
SPEAKER_05Go for it.
SPEAKER_03You know, when you you mentioned this is really high stake. Work. And for many years in my time on the client-facing side, I did a lot of work in the talent acquisition space and really supporting organizations and key talent identification and succession and so on. And that can be some of the most rewarding work in terms of, you know, as you mentioned, putting a validated solution in place that's really going to make an impact. We know what the cost of a bad hire is. It's a lot, it's not the first year salary. So these can be really challenging discussions, especially in situations when an organization says they need one thing, but they're rewarding something else. And that is a very common challenge, especially as you're starting to think about different levels of leadership within an organization. One of the stories that stands out for me here that ended up with a very successful ending was the opportunity to work with this financial services client as they went through their journey of everything from competency alignment and looking at competencies as it connects to leadership roles to really understanding key talents from director to C-suite in the organization. So we'd spent a lot of time doing tremendous research, getting an understanding of what key stakeholders said were important for success for the role, collecting performance data, you know, getting a sense of what the assessment data looks like for those who are currently in role. And we reach what happens a fair amount, which is the conversation where we say, these are the things we said are really important for success. Creative, innovative, change agent, make it happen. These are the things we're currently rewarding, practical, pragmatic, operational focus. And this happens, this happens a lot. And the aha moment that came in this conversation with the client was hmm, this is why we keep bringing people in to be change agents. And within six months or a year, they're leaving the organization or they're saying, you know what, you're not ready for them yet. Um, and and I think that is a reality in a lot of these situations. But the beauty of Hogan's process here, the research process, is we start to unpack these things and say, where's the gap between what we say we want and we need and what we're rewarding, and how do we create the path to make that happen? Um, you know, this is a this is a client who has been a you know a Hogan friend of the family for a very long time and continues to leverage us, so it's definitely a success story as we started to unpack how do we get from what we say we want to where we are. Um, but it is a really common challenge in this case, and you know, using the assessments and the job analysis process as a point of awareness were really critical. Chris, what about you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Mine ties pretty close to what Jennifer talked about here, but I had a uh a large client that we'd supported for quite some time, global organization, um consumer goods, and they'd gone through a checkup at the top end. So some changes in the board, they had just appointed a new CEO, and the board and CEO had identified that um they didn't feel they had the leadership characteristics that they needed to sustain their evolution in the future. Stock price would have told you this organization a bit stagnant, investors were a bit skeptical about previous leadership's ability to evolve the organization to keep up. And so they went on a pretty big journey to say uh we need these types of things, change agent growth mindset, we need to digitize the organization. And the CEO and board were convinced they didn't have the right people in the organization to do that. Now we've been in this position with many clients in the past. I came into it with a hefty dose of skepticism. And after about a two-year process, assessing close to a thousand leaders across this enterprise from the CEO and said, you don't have a people problem. I said, all of these capabilities that you've outlined as critical for your success show up in the collective Hogan profile of the people that you employ. What you have is a systems problem. In the 150 years you've been in business, you've created uh processes, systems, governance, and controls that just prevent the natural capabilities of your people from shining on a day-to-day basis. So it completely reoriented the challenge with which this client was trying to achieve. And if they'd continued down the path of finding the internal talent and trying to mix and change that talent, they would have missed that no matter what they did, to evolve the capabilities, skills, and capacity of their teams, they would have missed the fact that they had systems in their organization that were going to prevent any of that evolution to occurring change. So um, and it was amazing to me how fast this situation changed once they had identified the clear problem. Once they'd identified the clear problem, they went on a pretty systematic approach over the next couple of years. Investors gained confidence, stock price rose, um, and even to this day, they still continue to be the benchmark in their industry for the way in which they operate. So it was a very challenging scenario or situation, but it ended in a really rewarding insight from the value in which uh we provided to the client.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's so interesting listening to Chris and Jennifer's answers because again, I swear we didn't uh corroborate uh going into this, but we have some real similarities here. So when I think about some of the challenges in client projects, it involves finding a real something very unexpected or a real complexity in the research or the data that we were using in solving that client's problem. And a lot of these complexities deal with leadership, right? So in one example, we found that the personality characteristics that predicted getting results, both in terms of operational and financial metrics, were inversely related to the things that produced engagement and you know, um the kind of more the softer side of leadership. So in essence, the leaders who were great at driving for results were driving people away from the company, driving people out of their functions and organizations. And in the examples that Jennifer and Chris, and now the one I'm sharing, the challenge involved telling the organization something really hard, a message that they maybe didn't want to hear, like the aspiration that you have for where you want your company to go or the leadership you want your people to have is doesn't match with reality. You know, in Jennifer's case. Um, in in Chris's example, it was identifying a deep systemic process problem. You know, in my case, it was, yeah, it was upending their entire performance management philosophy. And those are not easy messages to deliver, but um it's kind of this combination of finding something really complex and unexpected in the data and then leveraging that to have an uncomfortable but ultimately maybe transformative conversation with that that organization.
SPEAKER_05Well, very cool. I don't I don't really have a good challenging client client story, unfortunately. Uh, because most of my I'm I'm actually probably the challenging client because I work with an external PR firm and they probably got a call with them right after we get done recording this. So I'm the challenging client here, so we can just go ahead and move on and they can tell their own story on their own podcast. Um but you know, each of you have worked closely with Dr. Hogan uh throughout the years. So I'm curious, what's your favorite memory from your time working with him? Because anybody who knows him knows that he is quite the character, so I'm sure you all have something interesting to tell. I don't know. Chris, Jennifer, which one do you want to go first?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Blake, this was a hard one. There are so many stories over the years to kind of whittle it down. But sometimes the simplest stories create the greatest impact, and and that's where I landed on this one. Um, Dr. Hogan and I share a love for automobiles in every year where he lives. Uh, there is the Concourse de Elegants in Amelia Island. And I was there one year, um, and we were both there examining all of the vehicles, what's happening, what's going on. Um, and and they're just some amazing works of art uh across the various examples, beautiful Mercedes bins. These are pre-war examples of handcrafted automobiles, and and I could spend hours looking at these vehicles. But later that evening, we were having dinner, and he asked me, he said, Okay, out of everything that you saw today, what was what was the best? What do you think was the best example? And I know I got into a pretty impassioned reaction to this because it was clear to me there's an automobile that was made in the US called a Duisenberg, and everything on it is a work of art. And I can remember specifically describing a fastener that they had, and I talked about the placement, the way it was um articulated, angled, that every little detail on this simple fastener was so precise and so well thought out. And when I stopped, Dr. Hogan looked at me and said, That's exactly how I feel about a single item on our assessments. He said, People tend to think it's a random group of words thrown together or that they're just grouped together. He said, But that's exactly how I created our assessments. I moved words, I recreated things, I tested things, I adjusted, I changed, and so much effort and energy into went into each and every item on our assessment. Um and I realized at that moment that's why we have the impact we do. That's why when someone says to me, How do you know that about me, or where in this assessment did you see that? When you hear that that level of care and intensity and passion went into the original development of what we do here at Hogan, it gives you a clear picture as to why we deliver the impact we do at an individual level for those that take our assessments.
SPEAKER_00It's funny, Chris. That's not the only example of um he's so obsessed with so many different um kind of examples of precision engineering. So it's fun, it's funny to hear you share that one, which I didn't know about in particular, but that's such a thread. Um interesting. Yeah, Jennifer, what would you say?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um my story takes a little bit of a different twist, um, maybe a little more personal in nature. I don't know that we've talked about the Hogan dogs just yet. Um, maybe mentions that they're running around the uh running around the building. Um that's definitely an artifact of the old building and and the building of today. Um but when I um first started at Hogan, my office was just right down the hallway uh from RT and Joyce. And their dogs, um Willie and Grace, Jack Russell Terriers with lots of attitude, um, came came to the office every day. Um and and you knew Willie and Grace are really important stakeholders, and you need to make sure you're you're navigating those relationships very carefully. Um but it at one point in time, the new puppy, Bubbles, came to the office. I don't know if you all remember um Bubbles, um, but I was trying to leave our office area at one point, and and we were in a building where everything was very segmented. So I walked past um RT and Joyce's office to leave the area, and Bubbles, a young Jack Russell Terrier, came running after me and and you know, trying to get out the door. And you know, I'm very you know, as someone who was, you know, I don't know that I was even full time at Hogan yet, still maybe an intern, you know, turning and very carefully trying to say, No, bubbles, it's okay, you stay here, you know, I'll be right back. And RT um gets up and walks to the door, and since we're keeping it PG, says, Bubbles, you little rascal, um, you know, come come back here. Um, and it was one of my most memorable interactions with him because this this is a legend in our industry, someone you you know, you you read about and you study, and um, you know, and you know, have a standing room-only um event at Psyop, just to get a moment with him. And here we are, you know, talking about dogs and you know, just a very human moment that really stuck with.
SPEAKER_05You know, J Lo, it's funny, you were as you were talking, my Jack Russell, I could hear him walking, pacing outside the door of my room right here. Uh so Staley, I can hear you. Um but Jackie, uh, what about you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was thinking way back, I got in the way back machine to to think about this question. And it's funny because so Jennifer was describing the old Hogan building when we were still really small. And the Hogans worked in the same Dr. Joyce and Dr. Hogan worked in the same office, and they worked sort of back to back. Um, you know, and spin their chairs around and talk every once in a while. And I I realized that a lot of my memories of RT, we sorry, we call Dr. Hogan RT, uh casually in within our our own company. Uh a lot of my favorite memories of RT or Dr. Hogan actually involve a memory of Joyce as well, because you almost always interacted with them as a unit back in those days. And I was a kid, literally a kid. And I think luckily for me, I was too young and stupid to realize how impressed I was supposed to be about the Hogans. I didn't yet know what legends they were in our industry. So I had no fear or hesitation of just entering their office and asking them questions, which looking back, I'm sure was really annoying to them, but was tremendous for me. I mean, I was learning at the speed of light from them, but also on the job. And it was just a wildly exciting time in my growth as a person and professionally. But you'd walk in there and you could ask them anything. They would stop what they were doing and give you their time and attention. And among the many things I went in there to ask them about, one of them was advice on graduate school and whether to go full PhD or stop in my master's degree. And of course, both of the Hogan's are doctors, they're the doctors Hogan. So I kind of anticipated the answer would be of course go get your PhD. But they disagreed. And RT said, you absolutely should go get your PhD. That gets you credibility in every room and you know, access to you know, just opportunities and you know, networks that you might not get if you don't do it, and you know, it's a it's the credential. And Joyce, although she was getting a PhD as well, she said stop at your master's because I you know, I was I was in school and working for Hogan at the same time. Don't tell TU, it was against the rules. Um, but I she said, you'll you'll be getting your degree at the University of Tulsa, but you'll be getting your education at Hogan. And ultimately I listened to Joyce. And she was right. I mean, I was getting my education at Hogan. And for anybody who has that opportunity to be in school, getting your your advanced degree while doing the work that you're studying, it is the best way to learn. It was tremendous. Um, and there are times when I think back and I regret not getting my PhD. Um, you know, often, in fact, I regret not doing that. But I think um I think about that memorable advice from both of them and later, much, much later, decided to ask for recommendation letters from from the two of them for grad school. And you know, you're not supposed to look at those, they stay sealed and you send them out and you don't know what they say. They could say Jackie's the worst and don't ever consider accepting her in your program, or they could say something great. So I was a very, you know, I was a good steward of the that process process. And but l much, much later when I was moving from Tulsa to where I live now in Tampa, I found those letters. I had a few extras, you know, you print a bunch and you seal them up, and then you end up sometimes with a couple left over. And I thought, well, it's been a long time. And it was after Joyce's passing and I opened I opened them. So confessions, true confessions, I opened them. And Dr. Hogan, Dr. Robert Hogan's said it was like one sentence, and it was a very powerful sentence what it said. I recommend Jackie Van Broken, which is my my maiden name, um, without reservations. You know, just a very clear like you should take her. I accept, you know, I recommend her with no hesitation. But Joyce's, which, you know, Joyce was kind of a tough cookie, and she she had she had kind of a tough love leadership style. But her recommendation letter to me was so thoughtful and so um detailed. She had clearly gone around and talked to everybody that I had ever worked with or for and what kind of projects I had contributed to. And it was so well reasoned. And you know, of course, I just started crying at that point, just um thinking about the time that she took, despite the fact that she could be a little um a little tough on the surface, but just cared so deeply underneath. And in both cases, I'm sure that's what helped get me into grad school was was the recommendation from both of these kind of luminary people in our field.
SPEAKER_05Well, I've I've got one myself, so I have I have had the the opportunity to interact with with RT uh on a fairly regular basis. And Jackie me, uh it's no surprise that you said it was like one sentence was a powerful one. That's kind of like his emails. I mean, we've all seen them. They're very short, but he can say a lot in very few words. And you know that like it to take it seriously. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Um they're direct, but um you you just have to see it to believe it. But my story actually is he came in, you know, living in Florida. I never got to meet Joyce, unfortunately, and that's the one regret I have. I wish I would have got to Hogan a little earlier. Um but he came to me, we were sitting there, it was while we were actually in the office, you know, full time, and he came up just you know, you never know whenever he walks in, he just gets off the plane, he just goes straight to to Hogan HQ, he walks in, you don't know who he's uh he's targeting. And I was targeted that day. And he came, he stopped by, he said, Blake, yeah, he said, Blake, uh we need to train our people here to speak better and do better at presentations. Um there was this firm here in town, they they trained me several years ago, it's called Shocky Turnbo Frank. Call them, ask them, see how much it's gonna cost to do this presentation training, speaker training for our consultants. I said, RT, I worked there for five years and actually did that training and facilitated it. And he said, Great, we don't have to pay a ton of money, we keep paying your salary. He said, get this going. And uh I didn't, I mean, of course, when he tells you to do something like that in person, um you get the ball rolling, you get going, and uh a couple months later launched it. I I mean, and now I bet you know, that was probably eight or nine years ago. And I I bet I bet you know, we put 50 to 60 people through that, you know, because people don't, you know, Togan's not always their last stop on their career journey. You know, so anytime we got a new batch of people in, I set up another training session, and the the session still lives on today. Whenever we need it, um it's not as frequent, but but yeah, that that's what he came to me. But when he came and told me to do something like that, I I made sure I made it happen. And hopefully, hopefully I succeeded, but we'll kill it.
SPEAKER_00I went through your training, Blake, and it was memorable. I I still think back and use some of the things that you you taught us. And I think Chris and Jennifer went through it too, if I'm not mistaken. And you know, we had been giving presentations for a long time at that point, and I took I still took a ton away from it. So yeah. Do you guys remember that, Jennifer or Chris? Did you go through it?
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, like you structured it in such a way that was really kind of getting at who we are when we're sort of off the cuff, um, and also uh you know a more structured format. And you know, it was just really interesting to see like where's our comfort zone in this? Um, and you gave me some really meaningful feedback that I I carry with me today when thinking about, especially in a longer engagement or presentation, just kind of you know managing my breathing and my my pace. So it really made me.
SPEAKER_05Chris, I don't know if you ever made it, I don't know if you made it through.
SPEAKER_02You were I'm sure I was on the road, Blake. I actually get to sit through it. I had plenty of people that worked under me that went through it and spoke very highly of the program. So yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean, yeah, you were gosh, you were you're you are the road warrior, which is I mean, that's perfect segue into the next question that I have here. Because um, I mean, all three of you have traveled a lot for Hogan. Um, a lot more than I have. I mean, I've done a fair amount, but you all have been on the road a lot, um, traveling in numerous cities, states, countries for Hogan. So, what's the most memorable trip? You've taken on the Hogan dime.
SPEAKER_03I can kick us off. Like, I know I haven't spent quite as much time on the road as Chris, but there is a trip that comes to mind, and I feel like I've spent quite a bit of time in the Wayback Machine, so I want to share a story from about this time last year. Hogan has a diverse business model. So we work directly with customers. We have distributors in more than 40 countries. And in my current role, I have the privilege of working more closely with these distributors in terms of implementation of learning content and so on. And last year I had the opportunity to spend about a week in the UK meeting with all four of our distributors. So I was supporting Jackie and the product team to really do kind of a roadshow, if you will, on our newest product, Helix. So this involved training each of the distributors, getting everyone up to speed, and really just the opportunity to connect and engage. Travel for Hogan is always a wonderful experience, whether you're surfing on the plane train with Chris Duffy, you know, to go see a client or anywhere in the world, meeting with our distributors who are just an extension of the Hogan family and have such great knowledge and insight. And this trip was a lot like any other Hogan trip. Definitely an example of work hard, play hard. The hours are long, they start early, there's a lot of technical content with audiences who, you know, in a lot of cases, our distributors have been, you know, doing this work longer than those of us on this call have. So really, you know, meeting with people who were true experts in their market and the field and getting the opportunity to engage and share some new insights. And also have a little fun along the way. This trip in particular was with one of our regional directors, Maya, and we had the you know planes, trains, automobiles, and boats experience, right? By the time we covered off, we're distributors in the market, really kind of hitting the road all over the country, but then also finding some time for fun and experiencing local culture, restaurants. Um, so that really stands out as a more recent memory.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can I can add to that, Jennifer. Um, I I relish any opportunity to be with clients. What we do at Hogan is such a human experience, and I think more and more as as we move forward in this world, that human experience is going to become more and more valuable. So I I cherish any opportunity I can to be with clients and especially with leaders and have the opportunity to uh work with leaders, leadership teams. In this particular case, uh I spent a week in Ishtamble, uh Turkey, and uh we had done a series of about 12 different team sections across this entire enterprise back-to-back. It was an unbelievably challenging week given very little breaks, very little rest, but also probably the most rewarding trip of my entire career. I had a colleague with me, um, and she she stuck there with me as well. But then we did have some time to actually see the city. And if you haven't seen it, Timble Turkey, it is an amazing place. Fantastic food, fantastic people, and just from a historical perspective, so much to learn and so much to see. So we delivered great impact with the climate, but to satisfy some of the needs from us from a hedonistic perspective, we got to see parts of the city, had some fun along the way, uh, and came back exhausted, but also extremely rewarded from that trip.
SPEAKER_05Jackie?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so when I think back over the trips I have taken, a lot of the most uh rewarding have been two very unglamorous places, because you know, it was more about the work we did there or the people I was with. So I'm thinking Cedar Rapids and Omaha and Rochester and White Plains, and no offense to the people who live there. And I'm sure it's, you know, those are wonderful places, but they're not exactly tourist destinations. But your question was more about the place, our favorite place. And mine was also a recent international trip to Paris and Milan with one of our uh distributors internationally aware that operates out of both of those countries. And they asked me to come out and deliver some segments of a leadership program that they were running. And the place they hosted this event was a very old castle, um, I think 12th or 13th century castle that was converted into a beautiful training, you know, state-of-the-art training facility and conference center. And so you're sitting in this truly ancient room and it it they've preserved, you know, the old sinks and you know, um plumbing and it's very cool place, but there's state-of-the-art technology all around. And I got to participate in this um program. And for somebody like me, one of the things I miss the most in my current role is that direct interface with the clients and delivering these programs to to people. So a lot of times Jennifer and I are designing them, but we are not always the ones delivering them now. So that was just uh you know, scratching an itch that uh I miss a lot, but um also the setting was just truly um like something out of a fairy tale or a Disney movie. It was just such a beautiful location and the people I was with at this distributor aware and the the clients that they had brought in were all just really amazing people. So I had a pretty magical time there.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, although you all have traveled more than I have uh for Hogan, because I mean mine doesn't require that much. Um I'm gonna have to go. I mean, I I had been to Dublin, but that was really cool. But I'm gonna pick uh the distributor summit last year in Miami. Um I and for a c for a few reasons. So um first off, there were so many Hogan people there, and so it's fun to be on the road whenever you know you have what there were probably like 20 Hogan uh employees there. I mean minimum maybe. I uh and then you have all of our distributors there, which was awesome, just getting to interact with all of them in one place. Plus, it was it was Miami, which to me, I think that was also the other part of it, is I never had any desire to really go to Miami. I had only been through the airport on the way to the Bahamas, and I was like, this isn't a place I really care to go, but I guess if work's gonna send me, I'll go. And it really beat my expectations. Um the food was incredible, but I think the best part was that I was going down, and the whole point was for my uh initial reason for going down was to record some uh podcast, uh little mini episodes with the distributors. And uh at the as we started that discussion, it was like, okay, well, we're gonna get Blake like a like kind of like a suite so that he can have just like a living room area where he can have distributors come up and you know do that. But you know, that was early on in the process and the planning, and then um next thing you know, we've rented a studio where we're just gonna have them there. And so I arrive at the the hotel just normal, thinking, you know, I'm getting in a normal room, and you know, there's people there in front of me, and they're they're getting they're they're checking in and they get in their card and they they go up to the room, and then another person gets their card, they go up to the room, it's my turn. I get up there and they're like, sir, your room's not ready. And I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like, they're doing the inspection right now. And I'm like, what are they inspecting? Like, what's wrong with my room? And uh that suite never got canceled. Um, so my room ended up being the the really fancy suite that we were supposed to do the podcast in, but there was no need for that either. But the view that we had was incredible. And it was also what what uh that it was the Oriental, the Mandarin Oriental, where it's it's gone now. I mean, that they they demolished that just a few like a few months back. So we were one of the last big groups to go through there, and uh so uh it was just a a technical error somebody made, or they couldn't cancel that room, and that's what I ended up with. And I'm not hearing so um you know deserved. What's that? What's that? Well-deserved, like I'm sure it was a great thing. I just got lucky, you know. Just got lucky. Uh but uh the next one, uh, let's get back to the values that we discussed earlier. You know, if there's two values that really embody Hogan, um, you know, hedonism and altruism would probably be at the top of the list. So what's your favorite story that exemplifies one or both of those values?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can start us off, Blake. Uh, this happened very early in my career at Hogan, and it really helped me realize how prevalent our culture is, and how prevalent these values kind of permeate across the organization. And I really believe values are what retain people and keep people in an organization, and this experience really helped solidify how important these things are to me. Um, but I remember distinctly, it was in Seattle helping a client, and this was early in my career, Logan, helping a client. They were having problems with the transition of software engineers into leaders or managers. They were really struggling, and we'd realized that some preparation of those individuals through maybe some strategic self-awareness with our assessments could help. So we had developed a customized solution for that and put it in place. But on my way home, I stopped and had some food. And at the time, Joyce Hogan, as was mentioned earlier, she managed all of our expense reports. And the week later, after I'd finished up my expense report, um, I was called to her office for some questionable charges on my expense report. And I came from an organization, the manufacturing organization part was at Hogan early in my career. That um when I sat down for a meal, I had two credit cards. One that paid for my per BM and food that was the company, and then any extras, whether that was a uh a cocktail or a dessert or something, that was I paid for that personally. So I was used to that world. But when Joyce called me into her office, she said, I want to know about this charge here. And I kept looking at my expense report and I couldn't figure out what she was talking about at all. And so finally she says this one, Taco Bell. She says, What are you doing eating fast food when you are traveling for Hogan? She said, Do you find a proper restaurant? Not that, and I love Taco Bell. Look, I'm not Taco Bell is one of my favorite places to eat. I still eat there, I just don't expense it in Hogan. Um it's fantastic. It's it's amazing. But her point was we work hard, we play hard. And so when you're traveling, uh, part of why we travel is so we can have face time with our uh our customers. We do amazing work, and our reward for doing amazing work and driving the impact in organizations is to enjoy ourselves. So the work hard play hard was really hammered home early for me. And I think it's something that I really embrace and appreciate about the Hogan culture. So still to this day, I find a proper meal, proper drink, and uh and am very pleased that we're in a position to be able to do that when we work with our clients.
SPEAKER_03Chris, I love that work hard, play hard example, and that's an example that really comes to mind for me too. What really um stood out in thinking about this question was the selling Hogan to Hogan onboarding experience that everyone on the consulting team used to have. Um I think we all remember pretty well, and it has evolved a bit. And Blake, I think your presentation training is maybe even another evolution of this onboarding experience. But selling Hogan to Hogan was essentially um, we'll call it an onboarding experience.
SPEAKER_00I love how she's calling it an onboarding experience. It was hazing.
SPEAKER_03Onboarding experience. Um where new new consultants did not matter how long you have been on board, typically within like the first week or first month within role, whenever the next consulting meeting was happening, um, were required to put together essentially a Hogan overview presentation. And the rules were you could use anything on the you know at the time, which was the F-drive, um, you know, any shared resources were available. And if you were lucky, you had one contact on the consulting team who you could engage to ask questions to make sure you were you were on the right track. I remember this experience as a terrifying one, um, you know, just not knowing is this the right depth of the content, how many slides should I have, what's expected, um, how difficult will my audience be? And this would happen on our Friday consulting calls. Um so I remember going through my presentation and the um and the group was was pretty kind during that time, but there was a celebration after the fact. Um, our you know, Friday at the time or Friday afternoon lunches were almost always at a you know fabulous local sushi restaurant, and there would be you know a celebration for this experience over the years, and even as I became a manager on the consulting team as well, we carried that forward into a role play experience, maybe with a little more onboarding support. Um, but it just that really stands out to me because it was it was fun, it was definitely work hard, play hard, and it just it really expedited your growth. And you know, and thinking back to our earlier question about why are you still here? Um, you know, one of the things about that experience, and so many at Hogan have been about just taking a chance on people. Um, I was regularly thrown into the deep end, probably before I was ready. Um, but that taught me so much about who I am as a person, who I was as a consultant and a leader today.
SPEAKER_00I was thinking back on um, you know, the the story that Chris shared. It was like a moment in time, but there were also rituals that were a reflection of exactly that same value that he was talking about. And I think what what that conveys to people is I we have a lot of trust in you. So we want we trust that you're working really hard. And our sort of recognition of that or the freedom that you get around that is this permission to enjoy your colleagues and you know have fun. So we had a kind of a ritual of every Friday afternoon. If you're you know, your client load and your work was in a good place, we would hang out together and just, you know, have a beer and and be in the conference room and share stories and lessons learned about things that were happening in the business and just connect as people. And I think the altruism comes out in a number of ways at Hogan. Some of it is in the our our roots as you know, our our company was was born out of, it was founded on principles of social justice and making the world a more fair place to try to find work and and and be employed at a time when that was really not um in style. So the assessments were developed in specifically to make the world uh, you know, to have more equitable access to opportunities. So that's one way altruism plays out. And that's really, I think, deeply meaningful to all of us. But the other way, I I think is in how we are sort of like a family, maybe a like a weird, mildly dysfunctional one at times. But um, I don't know if you can see behind me, but the those pictures on my wall, I have my children, my husband, my dog, and I have Chris is up there, Jennifer's up there. These people are my family at Hogan, and there are a few others up there as well. But I think that um we are a company who cares deeply about our our work and our customers, but also each other. And you know, I shared a little bit at the beginning about why I came here and why I wasn't in kind of fell in love with Hogan, the the company, the concept, the mission. But different things at different points in time have kind of kept me here. And I'm gonna I'm gonna embarrass Chris for a moment here, but I I worked for Chris for a long time and he's the best boss I've ever had. And he um it was very early on. I had I had quite literally just accepted um a full-time role at Hogan coming out of my you know part-time graduate school part-time intern experience at Hogan, which was really more like a full-time intern experience. Um right around that time I learned my dad had just gotten a cancer diagnosis. And um I lived, I was raised in Tampa and I was living in Tulsa where Hogan's at HQ is at the time. And it was he really needed somebody to be there, and there was wasn't really anybody else at the time. My sister was pregnant, and turns out you can't be around people who are going through radiation when you're pregnant. So she she couldn't um be that person for him, even though she was local. And I just I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm gonna have to ask this, but I I have to I have to go be there for him for a period of time. And I went to Chris with no expectation that you know they would, you know, I expected that Hogan would probably rescind my job offer and my company would reapply at some other point in time, which would have been totally understandable. And I felt so terrible about doing this. I was like, Chris, I'm so sorry. I have to go home for I think it's gonna be a few months, but I don't know, it could be longer. I just don't I don't feel like I really have a choice. And he sort of interrupted me mid-sentence and was like, don't worry about a thing. You just go and you take care of your family, and when you're ready, your job will be right here waiting for you. And I I gotta tell you, that is not um that's not a thing. That's not a thing that people get from their employers. And that commitment to me, you know, and and um support of me during that time, which you know, by the way, he's healthy now, uh, and he's in full remission as far as we know, and he has been for years and years. And that time was I mean, I I can't you can't put a price or value on that um or the value of an employer who you know who treats people that way. And that's that's one small example. I think Hogan has made many of those kinds of investments in people, but it felt like, you know, there's a commitment here to me, and it's really inspired a commitment in return. Sorry, Chris.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh no, thanks for sharing that story, Jackie. I remember it like it was yesterday, and I think it's something I've always been proud about being part of Hogan in a world that's driven by KPIs, money, return on investments. We've had the opportunity to put a line in the sand and say that we care more about humans and people than we do those kinds of things. Now, of course, we want to do amazing work, but it's about doing amazing work through people. And I think it's a story that really exemplifies how altruism not only impacts our clients, but that we practice it and preach it here at Hogan. And it's a very fundamental to the fabric of who we are as an organization.
SPEAKER_05Dusty in my room. Sorry, y'all. Um, well, um I'm not crying, you're crying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh you know, I I I had a couple different directions. I I wasn't sure. I I kind of want to hear you all first before I even kind of but but I'm I'm gonna go ahead and talk about the one, you know. I was I had a hedonism example and altruism one too. But I'm gonna go with hedonism on this one, and this happened just recently, and um it was whenever we were all together this last time at the town hall. And Jackie, even at the start of it, you were like, Blake, are you are you good today? I was like, my social battery is worn down, you know, like it had been a long week at that point, but we were doing our Hogan Game Day, our summer camp, or whatever you want to call it. It was a it was a fun time, and we have all these new people because like yeah, you see so many um new faces because we have uh we're we've grown so much. But and I think through the years, you know, it kind of felt with that growth and then you know us not being in the same place with each other as much. It it didn't feel quite like the Hogan that we maybe knew. Um and we're gonna talk about the old building here in a second, but that day it did. You know, like it was everything kind of came back. Like, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it, but like I even I I I remember like trying to take in the moment, and I I even went up like up top and kind of took a picture down uh at everybody who because you could just see everybody having fun. And I just remember telling people, I was like, this is this is Hogan. Like like, you know, we might have had some growth, and you know, we don't get to see each other that much. We might not even know a lot of these people all that well because there's so many of us now. But we were all on the same page that day, and that was all about having a good time, enjoying each other, and that is what I mean. A culture like that isn't built overnight. I mean, a culture like that takes the almost forty years that we're at to really come together. And that was just a special day. And I hope we have more of those, but that one it felt it felt good that day. So I hope you uncrazy.
SPEAKER_02I think we all felt that way, Blake. That day it was uh it was good. And you know, COVID in the middle of all of that as well, where people were just spread all over the world in regards, and we were prevented from coming together, which was such a core component to the Hogan culture. So I I I agree with you with it. And I had a very similar experience uh at uh Hogan camp this summer.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, hopefully we'll just we're gonna do an AI version of you in the outfit you were wearing at the as the camp counselor. Glad I could play my part. Yeah, yeah, you played it well though. Uh okay, so uh we're we're getting close to bringing this in for a landing, but uh you know, Hogan's current HQ is a state-of-the-art facility. It came uh it opened in 2015 uh in downtown Tulsa. But um, you know, most of those employees today, that's all they've known. But the four of us were lucky enough to get to just I only got to work for like 11 months in the old building, but it was memorable, but you all had more time there. So, you know, tell us your your favorite little story from the old Hogan HQ in Midtown, Tulsa.
SPEAKER_03Well, like, since we were just talking about Hogan Summer Camp and Game Day, I can kick us off with my story here. Um, Hogan Game Day actually started a long time ago um in the old building, and the the first one is probably the most memorable for me. Um, and then we can also talk about why Chris Duffy is the MC because he won too many years in a row. Um so now he gets MC game day. Um but the that first game day was um what was so much fun about it is the informality of it. We played minute to one games, there were a lot of ping pong balls and tissue boxes and and cups involved, um, you know, what we can do with all of those things. Um, and at the time we were in a building where we were sort of back on our own. Um, there was a you know a big parking lot that we kind of took over for this game day and just spent time together. Um there was competition, we we learned very quickly what our own and our colleagues' strengths and weaknesses were in these games. Um, but there was really just so much camaraderie. Um, and it and it really started the like official Hogan t-shirts too. So we all had our game day shirts, um, we had our prizes. Um, there are probably some other good pictures of of Duffy that we could turn into AI images uh for this podcast as well. Um AI for the back in the rail for that, but um but I mean that's one of the things there are a lot of things that stand out to me about the old building, everything from you know, we we outgrew it long before the new building was ready, and we shared offices and became you know what we might call logistical masters in terms of when we had phone calls, um, you know, how we uh were able to learn from each other from being in such close proximity. But game day is one that really stands out as everyone just came together and kind of set everything aside for a day and you know, and and have fun together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd echo game day was certainly memorable experiences in the old building, Jennifer. It's probably the first time I realized I had an identity versus reputation crisis. I thought I hit my competitive spirit fairly well, but evidently not. And uh so reputationally it was clear I was getting some feedback that maybe I overdid it at that time. But very, very memorable experiences. Um, I think the only thing I'd say or add to that, I love the fact that we had a small building. One of the things we used to say when we hired someone, and hiring someone in the early days at Hogan was a big deal. I mean, you you were talking about in some cases one or two hires was a double-digit increase in the total number of individuals we had in the organization. We asked the question, would you share your office with this individual? And it was a way of thinking about the interview and selection process in a holistic way, but it's actually true. Because you had to share your office with somebody. And I appreciated that, and I love that about our early days when we were all learning together and sharing experiences, it made us an extremely efficient organization. I missed some of that aspect. I do not want to go back to sharing my office with anyone, but I do miss the collaboration and the closeness that we all had together when we were in the office. And not only did you share your office with a couple other colleagues, but they brought their dogs to work. And so you had a couple of dogs and two or three other colleagues in your office at the same time. And I enjoyed every single minute of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I it's funny. I I have both these kind of specific memories and stories about the old building, but also there are just these features that were a part of the everyday. And one of the things I was going to talk about, Chris, was the the close quarters and the sharing of offices. And at some at certain points, it wasn't just with one other person, it was two to three other people. And granted, they were pretty large rooms, but we had these you know desks that were set up specifically so each person could sort of have a corner of the room. Um but it had this feeling of maybe being a little bit like having roommates. Um, so that was, you know, it comes with its challenges, but it created this culture that I now really miss, or this facet of our culture. And I I still talk about it. Jennifer knows this. I probably brought it up this week, and I call it turning the chair around. And I I miss that about us being uh primarily virtual now, or at least a lot a lot of us are. But back in those days, if you had a pro problem or a question or a challenging client case or something, you could just literally swivel your chair around and be like, hey, you got a minute? Um, so it was this very collaborative, learning-oriented culture where we were all in it together. And there are other examples of that. So I was thinking about um, you know, Tulsa doesn't get a lot of snow, but on the days that it did, you know, nobody could drive in. They don't, they can't clear the roads. But Chris Duffy would would get in his uh truck with, you know, he had the special snow gear. I don't even know what it is, because I'm from Florida. I don't know about these things. But he would literally go around and pick everybody up from their houses and we'd carpal into work together. And our power was out. So we'd come to the Hogan building for warmth and uh internet and employment and other things. Um, but just those the way those ways in which we would band together when things were tough. You know, if it was a super busy month for the accounting team, everybody, no matter their pay grade, would come to the front of the building and fold invoices because we used to send them by snail mail in in the olden days. Uh so it was like a it was a very um what's the right word? Like a everybody chipped in. It was a um not a flat or I mean I guess a flat organizational culture, but it was a ever nobody's too good to fold invoices, right? Um so it felt like this real connected culture. And then the last thing I wanted to share, because this is just a fun, fun thing to know. At the old building, there was this very strange artwork all over the walls. And when you're new, you notice it right away. You're like, okay, there are rorschok, rors, I can never say this word, rorschach prints, you know, the inkblot images on the walls. There are copies of images from the um stigmatic apperception test of TAT, which is like a projective psychological assessment that are they're very strange-looking images and a number of other things. And it really points to our roots and psychology and um, you know, personality. But you get accustomed to them over time and they just kind of become part of the scenery. But every once in a while someone sort of point them out to you and you know, you tell a story about why they're there. But when we sold the building, there was a um an effort that I was later called the preserving of the antiquities. And there were several of us who, you know, some of these things were about to be sort of thrown away, or you know, who knows where they were gonna go, maybe in storage. Um, but several of us were running around the building, like saving these old, you know, T T prints and ink blot images. And so I have a I have a bunch here. Um paid an exorbitant amount to have them uh shipped home to me in Florida, but it's just one of those things that I I'll always hang on to.
SPEAKER_05What about you, Blake? There was one morning and it had been storming a lot. Um and I I I went in a different door, you know, um for the marketing. So I went in on that door between research and and the you know, the main building. Um but at the there was a lot of people gathering around the front entrance one morning um after it stormed all night. I'm like, what's going on? I'm going down to get coffee, and there was um they were all huddled around a d a dog um that had made it to uh I mean like this dog was on like I mean it was it made it to the Hogan building, but it it was rough. This dog was old, it was skin and bones, like it had a pretty pretty rough life, uh pretty rough go at it, and then with to count all the storms. Um this dog was basically on death's door. Um lucky for it, that door had the the Hogan H on it. And uh yeah, I kept it. Yeah and uh her name was Lady. I kept her alive for three years after that, but like she was 10 plus years old. They didn't know how old she was, she was like almost dead. But uh really, really, really cool experience. Yeah. And and and the whole the whole Hogan team chipped in. Like, whoever, like, somebody's gonna take this dog, we're putting money in so this person can like you know, get it, you know, vaccinated, get food, get like, you know, uh, you know, a kennel or whatever for it. Um and that just showed me like the altruism side of Hogan coming together and and plus around a dog, but but like I said, I mean that dog was on on desk door and it had a Hogan H on it, so it was lucky as hell. So really, really cool. And I I love that dog to death, still think about her all the time. So lady, we miss you. Yeah, okay. All right, last question here. Uh, you know, you all have seen Hogan's evolution from small uh small mom and pop shop to the world's leading personality assessment company in uh with more than 400, 150 employees today. So, what's your vision for where Hogan will be in 10, 15, 20 years from now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can get us kicked off, Blake. Um it's really interesting. If we tie this back to the last question about Hogan headquarters, one of the things I remember a lot is that it was a non-stop revolving door uh for Netflix discs that came through the front office. I mean, everyone was shipping disks in and out, DVDs back and forth. We would sometimes steal someone's return disk because we wanted to watch it before it got sent back. But I think that's pretty analogous to where I see the future of Hogan. Um, the problems we solve, um, the people problems that we solve, the insights that we provide, whether that's at an individual level, whether it's at a team level, whether that's at leadership level, they're universal. They're always going to exist. The relevance with which we interact with our audiences is going to be absolutely critical to Hogan's success. And it's been a huge emphasis strategically for us over the last three or four years. Allison, our CEO, has been crystal clear about that. Remaining relevant in a world that is fast, if it is moving fast, changing quick, is extremely important. And while we continue to invest in the science of what we do, the efficacy, the predictability of everything that we do, we're continuing to invest to ensure that we remain relevant with our audiences and can deliver and solve those problems that I think will be universal in the future. So lots to come in the future, extremely excited about what the future has for Hogan and glad to be a part of that. Jennifer?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think just to add to that of continuing to move forward as our client needs evolve, as our business needs change, um, but in reflecting on this conversation today, you know, while also trying to hold on to what is so pure and great about our organization's culture. Um, like I think you said it, like culture like this isn't built overnight, um, it continues to evolve. And um, the Hogan Summer Camp that we we talked about from the summer was an evolution of that. Um, but you know, we were also able to see wow how things have changed and we've continue continue to grow. And I think Hogan does such amazing work and makes such an impact in the lives of leaders. We impact whether or not you know someone gets a job that they like and they want to be at, and you know, the and we know leaders impact so much about our day-to-day and you know what we carry home with us from that too. So you know, my hope is 10 years from now, 15 years from now, we're staying true to our core, and in the sense that we are focused on making a difference for people and their work lives, but also continuing to meet the needs of the market, continuing to grow and expand as an organization.
SPEAKER_00I would echo what our colleagues have said so far, Blake. Um, what I would add is I guess what I hope for Hogan is and what I think we're we are capable of, is becoming the trusted name in personality assessment, specifically for leadership development and decision support around leadership. Because, you know, I I think we are number one, we're operating in a market where there's been a lot of consolidation and um there's a lot of PE money in our space right now. But one thing that makes Hogan distinctive is we are one of the last of the true independents. We don't answer to PE money, we don't uh we can do things our way. And luckily for us in the world, our way is a very ethical uh way of doing business and bringing our science to life. So I really think, you know, if we if we could expand our footprint and expand that trust that we have with so many customers today, um, I think we really do make a difference in the quality of leadership worldwide. Um so I would love to see us come fully into that and you know, really start to own that space. I think we do in you know, in in some pockets of the day, but I think we have a lot a lot more of a difference that we can make there and do it in a way that, you know, we're really proud of.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, uh I'll I'll wrap this thing up, kind of just um basically saying, you know, we have the data uh earlier this year that we saw, you know, with the uh you know the global leadership effectiveness survey that we now are talking about the leadership divide, and there's obviously some kind of leadership crisis going on globally where um the leaders that we have are not the the leaders that um are you know the employees and the and the people really want. Um and Jackie, you said it in the last episode um and it was very it I think it was like the the poll quote that we had was kind of like you were like if we can just move the needle just a little bit and we can have a like a huge impact. And I think from a leadership standpoint, if we can continue to do that, continue to push forward on that front, because I do think that the definition of Hogan, you know, that Hogan has on leadership of um you know developing and maintaining a high-performing team, I think it is right. I think we need to convince more people that that's right, and that's what we're gonna do. I mean, and in my job as a PR person is just to amplify that as much as possible, but I can't do that without the work that the three of you all are doing. So um you all are great. I and I I'm so I'm I'm honored to work with all of you. This is fun, and I I really appreciate y'all joining us for this episode.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for asking us, Blake. It was a pleasure. Really enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, Nick.
SPEAKER_05And that does it for this episode of The Science of Personality. Be sure to join us in two weeks for another fun and informative and spooky episode. Cheers, everybody.