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Travel Mug Podcast
How to Move to Another Country with Operation Relocation
Paolo and Sara moved from Bermuda to Italy, and they want to help others make their dream move! They've created Operation Relocation, a workbook and website to help you plan and execute your move! We chat about moving abroad with kids, how to choose a new city, and how their lives have changed since moving to Italy.
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We are travel enthusiasts who do not claim to be professionals! Instead, we are two Halifax, NS natives with travel blogs who somehow found one another on the internet, and now, we have a podcast!!
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Disclaimer: All episodes are based on our opinions and experiences. Always do your research and make travel plans based on your budget and comfort levels.
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Travel Mug Podcast. I am Jenn, but Meggan is not here today, but don't worry. Instead, I am joined by Paolo and Sara two Bermudians who packed up their family and moved to Italy. So welcome Paolo and Sara. I'm so excited to chat with you about this. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for having us on. Yeah. appreciate it. Yeah. So, so many people out there dream about moving to another country, but I think the biggest question people have is like, where do you start? Like how do you make this dream a reality? So what was the first step that you took when you decided it might be time to leave Bermuda? So honestly for us. We had that dream. And like you say, it's hard to turn it into reality until you really start planning and really start identifying what's important for you and for your family. So that's the first thing that we did was to identify like what are the key critical priorities for us as a family? And then we built that into our reconnaissance trip. Because we definitely recommend that you, you go and visit the places that you're thinking about moving and try and get a really good feeling. The longer you can stay there, the better. so that's what we did in, um, Paolo will talk about a bit more about that. But also for us it was to be really open and transparent with our family, with our kids, um, with our friends, with our jobs about what it was that we wanted to try and achieve for our family and why, so that it didn't become a, a thing about them. It was really a thing about us and trying to make our dreams, uh, reality and, and, be really thoughtful about that, and empathetic about how we shared that information because this is something that could be in your heads for many years as a family, right? But you've never really said it out loud to other people. And so it comes as a real shock to them. So trying to engage early on, in those conversations was really important for us as well. And, and also like coming from a place like Bermuda, like people get confused. Like, why would you ever wanna leave? That's my question. Yeah. Like, even in Italy, like, um, people are like, oh, so where you from? They're like, we're from Bermuda. They're like. What are you doing here? And I'm like, beautiful here. Like, people like, you know, so it was, it was tough to kind of, think about like leaving the island. I, I think we more, instead of thinking about like what we were moving away from, we were kind of really were conscientious about what we were going, like running towards. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like this will always be home. Like we're back for a couple weeks now, um, just to sort out some stuff and see family and, know, that feeling as you start like landing, coming in, it's like, you know, it's, it's home. So having it clear in our heads and then also how we spoke to people that like, we're not going forever, like don't worry, um, like we'll be back sort of thing. Oh, that's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about that aspect. So how did your kind of extended family and friends take the news that you were gonna leave? A bit shock. Yeah. Shock. A little disbelief. Yeah. Yeah. there are so many steps that happen before you get on that airplane. Yeah. And for a lot of it, we had to ask for help Mm-hmm. we were renovating our house, we were working our jobs, we were parenting, we were looking after parents, and so we had to call in the reinforcement. So they pretty, pretty quickly understood, okay, this is real because I'm being asked to, uh, help you go through all your stuff and, finish painting and all those, and all those things. So, yeah. Once they get over the shock of it, they were of course, excited for us because, you know, we chose a place that's so on so many people's bucket lists. that's true. we've had visitors every month since we've been there. Yeah, Whoa. That's awesome. Yeah. So, , how did you choose your current location and Yeah. You said you visited before you moved there. Yeah. I mean, I, I've always been terrible at darts, so I didn't do that thing where, throw something Oh yeah. I'd be in the ocean. Yeah. So I'm half Italian, and Sara and I had been to Italy a few times together on vacation always really felt like connected and we loved it. So, having one of us with citizenship was a useful foothold. And then we really, what guided our search was around schools for the kids.. So not the first ones to have this idea. So there's lots of international schools, and we narrowed it down to four places in northern Italy., Just 'cause we wanted to avoid earthquakes as much as possible., So we looked at international school in Milan, um, Como, like Lake Como, Turin and Genoa. And in December 23, we basically over Christmas, like two and a half weeks. It's like, right, we're gonna city hop and, you know, try and go to these schools, um, the ones that were still open, but also get a feel for like the surrounding area. Like what would it kind of feel like, look like and smell like, um, being there. And we settled on Turin, largely because the school population is like super diverse, like 36, 38 different nationalities, different nationalities are there. Yeah. In terms of where we wanted to live, not in the city, but like, you know, close-ish, , you know, commute times or all that kind of stuff. Access to an international airport. Hmm. Yep. proximity that way., You know, we've narrowed down our criteria and just kept an open mind when we went to these places. Like, you know, how does this feel? What are kind of like checklist things?, And then settled on Turin. And luckily we all made the same decision. So the kids, the kids were involved and we wanted to make sure the kids were involved. The kids asked to be somewhere close to snow, so obviously we're from an island and they never really spent a lot of time in snow and they wanted to ski. So we're about two hour drive from the mountains, two hour drive from the coast, two hour drive from France. And so we load up our car and jump in on the weekends and go and, and travel and explore. And that was one of our key criteria was to have an adventure and, and be kind of spontaneous and be able to just visit different places. Yeah, well, like for, for those who dunno, Bermuda is like 21 square miles. So, um, very limited. It's very short adventure unless you on a boat. And then, you know, it could be Yeah. adventurous and, and know the Bermuda triangle is not a thing. Um, What. so like, so the opportunity to like drive to a different country or like, you know. Sara said within a few hours, like experienced something kind of like, you know, pretty new and different. Yeah, that's uh, super awesome and I'm glad that you all agreed on the same place.'cause I feel like that could be a very difficult decision if everyone was. I was like, we all agree. Okay. To like take a picture. Yeah, this is it. Yeah. Yeah. It's really funny 'cause um, here in Nova Scotia, we actually had a lot of people move here, , in like 2021. 2022. People were, a lot of people were leaving Ontario and moving to Nova Scotia.'cause you know, we have beaches and there's less people here and they could buy a larger, nicer home on the water here than they could get in Ontario. But I can't believe how many people I spoke to who moved to my tiny town of like 4,000 people who did not visit here before they bought a house sight unseen and moved here. And I was like, that was way too adventurous for me. That, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could not even fathom. yeah. Yes. We were thinking about that, about Italy as well, that we Yeah. would not recommend buying a house sight unseen for sure there. Yeah. No. Yeah, for sure. So let's talk about the legal aspect of moving. I think that's overwhelming to a lot of people. So what advice do you have to start kind of navigating visas and kind of the legal aspects of moving to a new country? So definitely don't wanna turn people off with their dreams, but then there are the realities of whether you can live in the place that you've chosen. And so very early on in your decision making journey, that is definitely something that you need to look into, to make sure that you understand whether you have the right or the ability to be there. And so, fortunately for us, um, as Paolo, as an EU citizen, we have the ability to stay in Italy long term you know, I still had to apply for, um, residency and various permits, and we can talk about bureaucracy, but obviously Yeah. Somewhere and you need a visa, you need to have a look at very early on, at the types of visas that you can apply for. Obviously you've got, um, an elective residence visa that's more for re retirees or people who've got enough passive income who don't need to work. You've got digital nomad visas that are very, uh, new and hip and places are coming out with them all of all the time to cater to those remote workers who can. work wherever they want outside of their home country. You've got investor or entrepreneurship visas, which are for those people who are starting businesses or who are making a significant financial investment in the country that they're choosing. You've got work visas that are tied to job offers that you, with a company that is located in that chosen country, there's this category of visas called family re reunification visas you're trying to join relatives. Yeah. That's a whole category. You've obviously got student visas for people who are looking to, continue education. And so you really need to identify what lifestyle you want, what your income needs are, what, your financial ability is, , what your employment status is gonna be, and kind of hone in, uh, on, uh, on your options and whether, whether they'll work for you, because there's no point, trying to put yourself in a, you know, round peg in a square hole. Uh, Yeah. like this is the perfect time to add that. Um, you can tell which one of us is a lawyer. Yeah. And which also highlights like, you know, recognize where your strengths are and you know, like try and find the expertise that you need to, to make a decision. I think, , social media, film and stuff can really romanticize like, oh, I'm just gonna on a backpack and get in the plane and just arrive, move to Spain, and it's gonna be like, it's gonna be great. You know, and reality, like they're like, what are you doing here? Like, who, who are you? And like, why are you here? And you're like, to navigate, the things that Sara just spoke about in Italian or in another language for the first time can be, um, really challenging. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think the most important thing to really highlight there is to ask for help from people who know what they're doing Yeah. Yeah. and, you know, don't try to do this all alone because it will be extremely overwhelming and very hard to navigate. So, yeah. And it doesn't end when you get there. There are Right. much you need to do once you are there. And so we found an amazing relocation consultant who, um, is, is based in our era and she basically held our hand from before we left to to even today.'cause there are things that we're still doing and you, you don't really know. All those tiny pieces of it that the amount of time that each piece takes, like from getting your medical health card to exchanging your driver's license, to getting your residency certificate, to opening a bank account Yeah., To getting your garbage collection set up. Like there's just so much., And as Paolo said, you know, unless you're fluent in the language, it's, it's tricky. So definitely asking for help early on. Yeah. Yeah, we had a guest, uh, Jamie come on the podcast a while ago and she moved to the UK on a visa. And I remember her going through the process. She's like, I can't get a bank account because I don't have this, but I can't get this 'cause I don't have a bank account. And it's like, you just wanna pull your hair out, like. Yeah. Yeah, that like very, very difficult. So yeah. You mentioned, employment. So how did you guys navigate that piece, when you were moving? Well, guess tying back to what our kind of core, goal goals, I was gonna say missions, but um, like kind of our, our key priorities was like, you know, enjoying the kids while they're young. Mm-hmm. Um, really connecting with, um, through an adventure thing together. So we decided to basically take a year sabbatical to allow us to kind of do that.'cause it's, uh, you know, it's, it's all hard, you know what I mean? Day. So it's like, so if you can, as much as possible, like choose your hard, you know? Mm-hmm. and we, we really wanted to take the time to kind of, to learn the language. So we signed up for like formal like tutoring classes and stuff. had a little bit of Italian, like from when I was a kid, but, , definitely underestimated like being 40, trying to like learn how to read and write in another language. It, it requires like Yeah. quite a bit of horsepower right? Yeah. mentally. So, we, and we're so happy we, we did that. It's like, you know, we're not, we're not there to like live extravagantly. We won't be buying a Ferrari anytime soon. But like, but we were like, you know, let's choose this hard. And, uh, Mm-hmm. and so far we haven't, you know, we haven't regretted it, so, yeah. Awesome. Yeah. So talking about the kids, how did you prepare them for this move? I know we talked about them being a big part of the process of, of helping make the decision of where you, where you go, but , how have they kind of handled the transition to living in a new country and, uh, do they, are they enjoying their new school? How has that gone? I think, uh, kids are definitely more resilient than adults, so they, they, they can bounce back pretty quickly, but for us, definitely one of the key things was being honest and open and empathetic and listening, because obviously they have thoughts and feelings, which all need to be validated. And so really, not shutting them down, letting them express how they were feeling. Also sharing with them, you know, our, our concerns and what we are excited about. Um, we've really tried to, , build an adventure,, and. they're excited about that. So we go on lots of trips and, , we try to make it fun as much as possible, but on, on the transition. The decision making piece was important to let them have a voice. So whether that was just like, which room did they want to have or how are they gonna decorate their room, or, , our daughter is, , IKEA expert. So, you know, when we got to ikea, she was there. She picked her, her desk, she picked her chairs, she came home, she put them all together. She really built, um, the kind of environment that she wanted. And the same for, our son. Like what kind of sheets do you want?, So that they feel like, um. some normalcy, but also that they have a say in what, what their environment looks like. Mm-hmm. and then for us as well, like sticking with the routines and the schedules that we know works for our family., So we know that it's important for us to have a really solid bedtime routine. And so we kept that going on our transitions, but also to like have the comfort that we know that they already love. So like, you know what's, we took. We talk about suitcases, but we took some key things for them that they, they got to choose to pack so that when we unpacked it looked familiar, um, them. And then also like ensuring that they had the opportunity to do things that they already loved. So, uh, so Lily plays football., We found, uh, juventus youth. Academy football club for her., She plays the same amount of time that she plays in Bermuda, , even though her team only speak Italian and she's playing solely in Italian, which is amazing and has been an amazing immersion, um, cultural, , opportunity for her and then for our son as well, like getting him into sports and the things that they already loved Yeah, you know, it's, it's easier. Um, and the school that they're at is set up for this like. right. Yeah. This is what they do. Right. and they support and they support you. So, , I guess that's a second secondary piece of it about building a community Mm-hmm. you, um, to give you the support and, and also making sure that we were happy. So like continuing to do the things that we love. So I go to Zumba every weeks. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Did you find it difficult to find your community of people around you when you moved? Or were there a lot of people kind of doing the same thing you did or. Um, like Bermuda is super small, so could easily take it for granted how like easy it is to kind of make friends. It's almost, um, a requirement 'cause you will see the same people quite a lot. Yeah. Whereas in larger places, like, you know, you could change your. Change your, your route to school or, or whatever and then, you know, see a completely different set of people and you know, not see other people ever again. So, Right. because the international school has such a, a wide representation from around the world, you know, we definitely felt, even if it's anecdotal sense of community,'cause there were other parents or families going through the same thing. Yeah., And I. Yeah, because we're not working, we don't have that as kind of a, an avenue to kind of meet people. So we kind of had to be more, more intentional about it., There are like events and stuff for parents going on, so signing up for those., Sara was saying like, you know, she goes to Zumba, so there's lots of moms, but also other people that go in the gym and um, and you know, we, we go to the gym, . As much as we can.'Cause you know, again, 40, Yeah. so if you go to a CrossFit gym, but we're not doing CrossFit. Mm-hmm. and, and also supporting like Lily with her girls' football, that allowed me to kind of exercise my Italian muscles because the parents also, you know, English is not their first language, so there's definitely being open to, you know, the kind of possibilities, being intentional about it helped us to build a community. Yeah. and I just wanted to piggyback on what Sara said earlier, like , giving them a say in things like creating room for your kids to have agency Mm-hmm. you know, for them their entire world is shifting. Mm-hmm. giving them a say definitely helps to reduce the kind of. arguments. Um, anybody who have kids who are completely compliant, like, I'd be really like suspicious of that. Yeah, I don't think that exists. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it's tough, right?'cause it's like, you know, you wanna control the situation because you, you know, looking out for them., But just, you know, having, um, an open mind about it, leaving room agency for them, Yeah. you know, the open mind is translates to when you start building your community too. Yeah, I think it's really important, uh, no matter where you live as an adult, like making new friends can be difficult and like you really do have to like put yourself out there and put yourself in situations where you're going to meet new people. Otherwise you're never gonna meet new people. And it's hard. I mean, it is really hard and especially if you're moving somewhere. Uh, where you're not fully immersed in the language yet, and, uh, yeah, I can, that would be very difficult. So, yeah. I'm glad that you're getting out there and meeting some people, so, Yeah, it, it's possible yeah. Yeah, it's possible. Yeah, for sure. All right, let's talk about the actual move. Because I cannot imagine packing up my stuff and moving across an ocean. So how much stuff did you take with you, and what was the moving process actually like? Um, approximately 17 suitcases. Which actually what we could have taken, like, um, it was definitely less than that. I just want to say that for that piece, like start as early as possible., Mm-hmm. Some people are super minimalist and they don't have a lot of stuff anyway. We are not those people. So we figured out what we were taking with us, what would live in storage, what we were gonna donate to charity, like what we're selling on, like Facebook marketplace. Like was a lot. Yeah. The sooner you start the better. Um, once it, you know, we, we were approaching the date, you know, we started bags, they're like, cool, we're not, this is packed now. We're not gonna touch it, you know?. Some people pack, you know, a month out for like a week vacation. Again, we are not those people. So like, you know, and the build up to the day was like, okay. In my head I'm like, cool. Transport plan for, for luggage, transport plan for people. And then, you know, down to the wire. It's, um, I. It was pretty stressful. Chaos. Yes, it was. He was making it sound calm. Yes. I was crying on the floor 10 minutes before we left for the airport. And the taxi? the taxi with all of our bags. Oh no. We sent the bags in another taxi. Yeah. People in another taxi. And then he followed behind in the car. Yeah. And then on the other side, we had taxis. We learned. learned the best tip, which is that British Airways at some airports will come and pick up your luggage before you go. So literally they send a man with a van and they check everything in, and then you just show up at the airport and you get on the plane. Yeah. And so I definitely highly recommend that if it's a possibility, the airport, because yeah, when we got to the other side, had to pick up our rental car. had to try and navigate taxis in Italian. We had to pick up two taxis because obviously one taxi wouldn't fit all of that stuff. uh. The things that were good about it is that we are very intentional. Like, this is how much we get for clothes, this is how much we get for shoes, this is how much we get for toys. This is how much we get for other stuff that's of sentimental value. Mm-hmm. And if it doesn't fit, then it can't come. Yeah. And so as Paolo said, I'd be like, I definitely think if we did it again. The sooner that you can start, um, it's very cathartic. We find, I find, you know, clear House, clear mind, so going through it and kind of,. Kind of getting rid of the things that don't need, you don't need, or don't serve you or don't give you joy. Um, like that was a helpful part of the moving process. Like it was Yeah. a part of the grieving process that, Mm-hmm. but it is quite, I think if you, if you do it quite intentionally, , that actually, that experience is quite helpful Mm-hmm. the process. Um, but it was. Chaos. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I was just thinking like, you know, going to visit ahead of time also allows you to like got this thing, it's my favorite like, you know, shirt of purse, shorts to wear and it's like, can I picture myself where Italy? Like no. Yeah. Oh, that's an interesting, yeah. And also 'cause we had the house. So we knew this is how much storage we've got. This is what, whose bedrooms, Right. where the cupboard is. And yeah, we need to buy a dresser. And so that was also helpful. We chose, we chose to rent a house that was furnished, so we know that we didn't need the bulk of furniture, so we didn't ship anything. Yeah, Yeah. That's amazing. So how far in advance did you figure out the housing piece? um, that's a great question. Uh, again, like start looking as soon as possible. Mm-hmm. So we, we, through visiting the school and, and again, they were super helpful. Like there's some, churn like the end of the school year and the summer months before the beginning of the school year. Sure. you know, families who are moving back to their countries or going somewhere else, um, will typically, you know, break their lease around the end of the school year. All right. We identified a few different places, but what was key I think, was identifying a real estate agent who not only spoke English, but had experience in families relocating to the area. Mm-hmm. you know, was a sight unseen. We were able to do like, , FaceTime walkthroughs of the houses and stuff, you know, get as much information as possible. It would've been nice to look at places, you know, we moved in July. We were there December before. Um, that's a little early, but it was a bit early 'cause stuff wasn't gonna come in the market. Right? Yeah. Right. You know, and kind of narrowing it down, being clear what our criteria was. Like we, we rented a, a slightly larger house 'cause we knew we wanted to have space for people to come and visit, Right. is so far worked out pretty good. And a garden for the kids. Yeah. Yeah. be outside and, and proximity to school. So Yeah. we know about ourselves that we are late., We get to school late, so we pick somewhere seven minutes from school. So, and any day, if we're late, we're never more than. Seven minutes later. Whereas a lot of people live in the, in the main city of Turin, , and they send their kids on the bus or they drive them, and that could be a 30, 40, 50 minute ride. And so for us, that wasn't, , gonna work. So definitely key. Find someone who's there that you trust who can do walkthroughs for you if you're not gonna be able to go and see it. Start early. Yeah. At least 4 to 6 months out. Educate yourselves about what the leases look like, right?'cause each country, each place has got very specific criteria about the lease. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, how long can they be? How long is the notice period? How do you pay the deposit? How much is the deposit? What are the tenants covenants?, What do you have to do when you give back the house?, What's the tax implications? All those things. So if you can learn that about that before you start actually finding a place, I think that helps as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So once you moved, how was the settling in? Did it feel like home once you got there? Were there some growing pains? I feel like, like we said, uh, at the beginning, like a lot of people are on Instagram be like, it's amazing you're just move here. Um, but I'm sure reality is not quite that. So how. Our Instagram is not like that, so definitely reality than. That indeed. Um, settling in was, uh, it's funny, your mind just erases stuff over time, right? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like it was, you know, it's like, my name is Paolo, so there are lots of Paolos in Italy. Right. you're like, oh, but you speak English. Like, you know, that kind of frame of reference was useful, Yeah. because. You know, our kind of ecosystem and area , they're used to kind of people coming in from overseas. There were some things, , were set up for that, but, but again, you know, our choice to take a sabbatical, the first year, I think reduced the kind of the pressure. Mm-hmm. you know, definitely times like we're thinking like, okay, like we're here now. Like what do we do? You know, do we do the right thing? That, that, like that kind of stuff. The bureaucracy is Off the chart. Another level. Yeah. In Italy. Yeah. yeah, it's been hard. So it's um. You know, going through the steps and the motions and just being patient with the process, , was definitely a learning curve. Mm-hmm. like identifying resources and asking for help early definitely helped us to navigate that., You know, we also met other families who were kind of going through similar things, so, Yeah. silver lining and, um, and just, you know, and just kind of. Just accepting it as it's not what you're used to. It's not your home place, but you know, this is your new home and it's all part of, it's all part of the sauce. Like, you know, it's like right pinch, pinch of this sprinkle of that, that's hard. That's, Its, especially when you, at this stage in life, if you're young and backpacking, it's like, oh, great. Amazing. Woo. But it's like, you know, like you, you're used to being able to get things done and you have that expectation in your head. Definitely relaxing your expectations is key to that settling in process. Mm-hmm. And not losing your mind. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is there something about this entire, process that surprised you or, um, that you kind of weren't expecting? Many things All of it. Yeah, how much time you got. Um, yeah, I think so many, let's start with the language, yeah. So we chose an area that's not very touristic, Right., In our town and. A lot of people don't speak eng English. Right. you choose a country where you don't know the language, you have to assume that there's gonna be a significant transition period, Yeah. that the only way you'll get over that is to learn the language. Yeah. Which we always wanted to do. Yeah. Which is great. But I think we underestimated,. Just being able to get things done., Yeah, when you're, when you're still learning. So I think that's definitely one thing, but not unexpected, but, but still hard. I think the second thing is to be, to be fair about the transition period. It is longer than you expect, right? It is a grieving process that you go through and kind of. Um, pining for what you knew and being excited about what you're going to, but letting yourself feel the emotions and, um, being patient with yourself is, is a challenge as well. Because people like us, I'm like, you, you expect just to hit the ground running. You're Yeah. just gonna move and everything's gonna be fine, and I'll get everything set up and in, in by like day 14 and then I'll be back to normal. And, and Mm-hmm. us for sure a year, a a year to feel settled. Yeah. Um, and that's fine. Like yeah, just be patient with yourself. Like there's no, it's not a, it's not a competition. Yeah. Or a game or, or, you know, it's, Yeah, the journey as well, right? Like you, yeah, those learning experiences all the way along. So, yeah. you know, and the other thing like with, with kids, like they'll, it's less about listening to what you say and it's more about kind of observing what you do. Mm-hmm. So like, you know, sitting with, sitting with those kind of uncomfortable bits, but remembering or reminding yourself that, you know, you can do it, and like, you know, kids are so resilient. They, they often encourage you in, in unexpected ways and you think I have to put it together for them. They're like, they're like, I'm kind of stressed and I see you're stressed too, but well done, mommy. I'm like, well done, daddy. Thanks. You know, I love that. pretend like everything's fine. Um, Yeah. so yeah. Yeah, probably better part of a year. But, yeah, it feels like, home now yeah. Awesome. So are there things that you miss about Bermuda that you didn't necessarily expect to miss?, How did that, uh, how did leaving Bermuda feel? I underestimated how much I would miss like the ocean, like, and. You can see it from most places in Bermuda, but just that proximity, like it's, it's hard, it's hard to describe. I, I love, we're, we're not like super in the mountains. I think it's like three, 300 meters above sea level. But I do miss seeing the ocean for for sure., I, and I don't know, what do you, what do you miss? Um, the ocean for sure. Our kids are water babies. Yes. You know, we grew up but on the water, , just. The peace, the, the sound. So we, we, we play white noise at night for us and for the kids to go to sleep. And it's basically just ocean sounds. Yeah. It's so integral to who we are. Yeah. Yeah. so, so that's probably a big thing. Obviously our community here, right. Yeah. and our family support system here that we could count on all the time and would help us work through the hard stuff. So it's Yeah. we're now a team of two plus two kids, so a team of four when before we're a team of, you know, like. 25. Yeah. it makes life, it's, it's a totally different life Yeah. and it means you have to rely on each other, , a lot more. And I think that's a good thing for us.'cause I think sometimes when you are in that environment where you've got other people all the time, you rely on that too much. That sense. So like if, you know, you can call somebody to pick somebody up at a certain time, you know, I'm, I, I have a work meeting, it's overrun mom, can you go and pick up the kids? means that you don't say no to work. Like you just, you, you know, you just Yeah. that you are always work late or whatever it is. And you kind of lose some of that agency I think as well. Mm. Um, Mm-hmm. it's been, it's been really interesting experience for us to just be us. Yeah. we know how people feel when they're relocating all over the world.'cause we, you know, so often you see South Africans or Australians or New Zealanders and they try and they, they move so easily. Mm-hmm. we've always been like, wow, you, you just left Australia and you moved to Bermuda for two years and you didn't know anyone. And they're like, yeah. know, that's just what we do. But for us as an island community, that's so family. the importance of being around family is, is really a central part. It's always been a weird thing to be like, oh, I'm just gonna leave my family, you know, Yeah. have them around. Mm-hmm. Um, so now I have a whole new appreciation for those people who make this move multiple times. I mean, we've just done it once, but for those people who or who are in the army or who work in oil or, and, and moving all the time and moving with their kids, like, it's an amazing I feat and it's really difficult. Yeah. Yeah. I think you learn a lot about yourself in the process and a lot about., Yourself as like, as a couple. Yeah. and yeah, I think that you can really like grow to rely on each other and, and, you know, even if you've been together for years, you kind of like get to know each other deeper through, like, going through this. And it, it is a really cool, process. I know my husband and I, we used to live. You know, two hours away from our family, which is not that far, but even just like moving back to our hometown and being closer to family, it is like really different to be able to call people, Hmm. and have them, you know, do something for us if we need it. So yeah, I can definitely see how that would be different. yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah., Are there any little favorite things about Italy, , that you weren't expecting, , until you moved there? That we weren't expecting. Um, thing that I was expecting was, the quality of coffee. I'm, I've, I, I drink a lot of espresso anyway, and it's just like the whole coffee culture is just like. Baked into everyday, like, you know, coffee breaks and whatnot, and it's, there's a whole culture routine about it, how you order and what you get. you know, no cappuccinos after 11 o'clock, which some Yeah. a bit strange. Um, I, you know, I, I grew up like around, you know, restaurants and stuff, so I've, I always like food, which showing more at 40 in my, but, Like we knew that the produce generally was gonna be like of a high quality. We just didn't realize like the abundance and the variety, like, it's artichoke season and so there's artichokes everywhere and it's right. like it's all looks like something like of off of Instagram's beautiful. And it's like Right, got like a kilo of cherries for like 10 euros., So that was kind of a pleasant surprise Yeah. You know, it also means that we're eating more for variety. I. Mm-hmm. it seasonally. Seasonally, Yeah. and just I, I find it a way, I'm not sure about you, but I find the, the food tastes better. It is different. Tastes different, but for me it's like better him. It's better. I find it really challenging. Okay. I have gluten intolerance and a dairy intolerance, and so I, Italy is probably the, the last place we have moved in terms, uh, for me, particularly in terms of like the pizza and the pasta, which I, Yeah. croissants and all of this, which I love to look at. So I have definitely found eating a challenge, but at the same time, like. Yeah, the fresh fruit and vegetables. Mm-hmm. in Turin, I think the biggest fruit and vegetable market in Europe. And so you just see it all coming in and it's just, that is pretty spectacular. The colors and the smells and and obviously for us, like being able to travel really quickly in Europe, just get in the car, , which is so familiar to Americans., And have that access of all these different cultures and experiences like on your doorstep, like within 2, 3, 4 hours, you know, not talking 10 hour drives, and Yeah, pretty yeah, yeah. In Canada you drive forever and you're still in Canada and it's, everything is far. So, uh, yeah, for sure., So to finish up, tell me a little bit about your workbook operation Relocation. What is it and , where can listeners find it if they're planning their own big move? So we talked at you for quite a long time on this, on this episode., So once we were there, we were like. That was a lot. What are some of the things we wish we had, like during that process, Yeah. like between us, we had like four or five notebooks, like 200 post-it notes, like stuck everywhere, like to do lists or like ideas. And it was like, what if we had like a central place that we could like put all this stuff, . But then also what kind of guide us through the process. You know, we, we learned like a lot of good things to do, some things like not to do. like how do we make this useful for somebody else? Because, you know, 2025, 5 years after the pandemic, people are like, you know, to be more to life. Mm-hmm. do we, how do we have an adventure? But how do we. Kind of plan it in a really intentional way. Mm-hmm. which is how this book came about. The workbook doesn't tell you what to think, but it kind of encourages your thinking and takes you on a path to be like, oh, what this consideration. This consideration. And to help you kind of draw out, like, taking your dream and make it into a reality. Right., As we said, you know, we're on sabbatical for a year.. We were like, okay, we can't do absolutely nothing. So it's like, you know, what's something that useful would be helpful, useful, helpful, be useful to other people, would be helpful for other people who, who are making that journey. Yeah. Like you said, giving a, giving them a pathway, giving them the questions to ask themselves and a central place to put it. Checklists, . Tables comparison. Um, really moving from starting with like, what's my dream location all the way through to your planning checklists and you know, how do I move my luggage? What do I do about my dog? Um, you know, what's the climate and geography like in these places? How do I compare visas?, So really like a self-driven exercise,, that will hopefully help you to come towards a decision about what's best for you, what choice is best for you. And you know, it's not designed for everybody, but everybody could use it. It's not a specific location that you're moving to. It's doesn't talk about, you know, what visas are available in this country or that country. It's really like a self-help tool. Mm-hmm. And then alongside that we're building out other tools, , that people can use to help work through the process. So, for example, we talked a lot about our kids. We wrote, uh, guides for parents to help kids settle on the other side. So it's really trying to, I give people the things that they need so that they kind of don't lose their mind. in the overwhelm and the chaos of the, this kind of planning process from the start all the way to after the transition happens, you know, and it's, uh, such an emotional process, but we've tried to give it structure. So hence operation relocation. Coming from a military background, it like, how can we break this down into manageable chunks so that people don't feel overwhelmed? And then the legal expertise to, you know, to think about all the, all the things that, you know, normal people might not even consider. Um, Yeah. yeah, this, like, we're, we're super proud of this book.. You know, it wasn't something that we were like, let's, let's sell millions of copies and become, you know, uber millionaires. It was like, you know, genuinely we wish that we had this at the time. So let's create this for people in the future and maybe, maybe can help people. Yeah, I think you, you don't know what you Exactly. You dunno. Yeah. And so having a guide from people who've actually Yeah. would be extremely helpful And, and some of the feedback, like people looked at it was like, you know, I thought it was kind of one thing, but once I actually started going through it, they'd like, oh, I hadn't even thought of that. Oh my God. Yes. Of, of course you wanna consider that like, you know, , we're super grateful for the support we've received so far and, um, and including yourself, like, thank you for having us on. Yeah. Um, you know, it is good to catch up. We haven't seen you for ages. and, you know, hopefully people will watch this and, uh, and. Find it useful and work out that, you know, the thing that we keep saying is, you, you, you might have a dream that's sitting in your heart for a long time, and how to encourage people to take that dream and turn it into reality when the time is right for them and whatever that dream is. But giving people,. Hope and hopefully some guidance. Yeah. On this partic specific topic for us, you know, it's not just, it hasn't just been about moving, it's been about, like you said, our emotional connection, our relationship with our kids, and so much more so. Yeah, yeah. So where can our listeners find you online and learn more about operation relocation? I. So the book itself is available on Amazon. It's also available through Ingram Spark, which is, uh, one of the biggest book distributors. So it means that any good bookstore can order it. You can get it at Waterstones, you can get it at Barnes and Noble. It's already on their websites. So just jump on and search Operation Relocation workbook, and then you can find us on Instagram, , at op relocation where we kind of share a little insight into, uh, our crazy lives. And, um, the, the real deal, the real, not not just polish Instagram reels, but like, you know, candid shots of me trying to order, order a coffee and yeah, it's, um. We, we, we obviously, we follow a lot of those absolutely beautiful Instagram pages and they are totally inspiring., But we kind of look at our life and think, yeah, like, yeah, there's, there's so much hilarious stuff that happens. It's like, well, we wish we, we captured that. But, um, Yeah, and also just trying to live our lives. So we, we don't, yeah, setting up like Instagram photo shoots to, have a, have a perfect shot. We just, you know, we, like, yeah, hope that what we share is either informative, uh, inspirational, inspirational or maybe Yeah. yeah, yeah. Real Yeah. Yeah. We We'd love people to follow us and, and, um, and tell us their journeys and if we can help in any way, we're happy to, uh, we're happy to. Yeah. Well thank you so much for coming on. It's been so great chatting with you. So as for us at Travel Mug Podcast, you can find us on our website travel mug podcast.com. We'll also share all of the links, , to operation relocation in our show notes and on our website. Site. You can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Travel Mug Podcast and you can support the show through Buy Me a Coffee or by leaving us a review on Apple's podcast or Spotify. And until next time, bye everyone. Thanks Sara. Thanks Paolo. Thanks.
