Live Workshop: Helping 2 Ecommerce Founders Break Past $100K/Month

Schedule a Call here to build and Scale your Ecommerce Brand → https://www.ecomcapital.com/demo/schedule

In this exclusive workshop, I break down two wildly different founder journeys: Harsh (truck driver turned $26K/month beauty brand owner using 100% AI ads) and Joyce (corporate refugee turned $10K/month in 2 months with dropshipping). We expose their biggest blockers, reveal the exact CPO framework that 10X's conversion, and show why the path from $26K to $100K is about focus, not new products.

If you're new to this channel, my name is Sasha Karabut. I went from $137,000 in debt to building two 8-figure eCommerce brands. Through my company Ecom Capital, I've generated over $75 million in client revenue and helped 1000+ brands scale their businesses profitably.

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LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/sashakarabut

TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Workshop Introduction: Two Wildly Different Journeys
3:00 - Harsh's Background: From Truck Driver to E-commerce
9:00 - Joyce's Story: 12 Years Corporate to Full-Time Founder
13:00 - The Burnt Boat Principle (Why Full Commitment Wins)
16:00 - Stop Thinking Small: The Mindset Trap Killing Growth
22:00 - Joyce's 6th Store Iteration (Persistence Over Perfection)
25:00 - Harsh's Current Performance: $26K/Month Breakdown
27:00 - The AI vs Human Ad Debate Begins
35:00 - Hammond Goes Full Controversial: "AI Only Until $1M"
40:00 - Why Humans Still Trust Humans More Than AI
42:00 - The CPO Framework: Circumstance, Problem, Outcome
48:00 - Joyce's Conversion Crisis: Paying 2X for Customers
53:00 - Selling Outcomes Not Widgets (The One-Wipe Guarantee)
59:00 - Speed = Sales: Compress Your Outcome Timeline
1:03:00 - The 10X Promise: Real Case Studies
1:05:00 - Amplify Maximizers, Minimize Minimizers Strategy
1:08:00 - Final Takeaways & Next Steps

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

We're back here with uh a split format with some of our clients from the community. We're gonna workshop on some brands over the next 60 minutes. Joyce, how about yourself? Give us a little bit of backstory in terms of uh your situation and um last money days.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

I have 12 years of corporate experience in but a couple of years ago I was made redundant, and then within the last two months with that drop shipping store, I made 10k.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Can you jump in and share a little bit about your brand specifically?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

I started with basically a hiking brand. We tried to scale it and we did scale it up to like 10k per month, but product quality wasn't good, getting a lot of chargeback and refunds, so I just closed it. Then I was like, I really need to focus into this one. And like in the last 90 days, we were able to scale it up to like 26k.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Have there been any key moments through your kind of journey with e-com capital that you would say have helped the most?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

It was less about fate and it's more about strategy thanks to him. I like everything I've learned, I've learned from him.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Because I tell you what, both of you guys, the number one blocker that you're gonna experience between where you are now and$100,000,$150,000 a month is all the possibilities of things that you could do. Can you jump in and share a little bit about your brand specifically? But before you do that, tell us a little bit about where you were before you joined Ecom Capital, and then I want to hear just the last like 90 days in terms of what you've been working on, what's been happening in the business specifically, and then we'll jump over and hear Joyce's story.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yeah, so I joined E-com Capital like a year ago. I started with Mountain Jaguar, which was like basically a hiking brand. We tried to scale it and we did scale it up to like 10k per month, but product quality wasn't good. So I was like getting a lot of chargeback and refunds. So I just closed it. And I was working on this brand, which I have right now side by side, and then I was like, I really need to focus into this one. And like in the last 90 days, we were able to scale it up to like 26k, we were up to like 32k pays, but just for like two or three weeks, we have a really bad fluctuations, and that dropped down the performance a little bit. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

What were you doing before you started the e-commerce business and what was going on in your environment? What was the day-to-day for you?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Oh, I was uh I was a uh long-haul truck driver. So I used to uh I used to do like from here to states, like to Florida.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

I've been almost everywhere in the streets, in in the states, so so so so not exactly like e-commerce native or kind of tech native, um, took that kind of jump out of driving the trucks and then moved over into building something digital.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Uh I would say uh I always wanted to build something of my own, like I have like it's mine, so like you know, and I I always have that in me, and I would say like econ ecom capital really helped me, like, because I knew like I can I can make this, but I didn't knew like what's the structure, like who's gonna train me?

SPEAKER_03 2:45

I'm like, I want to build this thing, I know I had this idea, I know I need to move to this next level. And obviously, like we we talked about this a lot, like you you you you you traveled a lot, you've seen a lot of things, you worked hard, and you wanted to build an asset, a digital asset. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Yeah, yeah. When when I started my like first brand, I remember like I used to attend calls while at work. So I think Human knows that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Driving in the truck and listening to the call. Yeah, that's wild, you're dangerous, man. Joyce, how about yourself? Give us a little bit of backstory in terms of uh your situation and um last 90 days.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yeah, my backstory, I have 12 years of um corporate experience in financial services, but a couple of years ago it was made redundant. Um, and I'd always had some sort of like side hustle even though I was in corporate, and so I think it was the universe's way to go. You can have the time now to like build your own thing. And I spent that first year chopping and changing digital chopping and changing between different uh online businesses. So I I learned how to publish books, I learned how to like do digital marketing, and one of the things that I also learned was dropshipping. And I'm like after that year, I'm like, I need to kind of focus and decide where I'm going to um how to focus my efforts. So I yeah, I started a dropshipping store last year and with another econ routine routine and that saw some successes, but it died. Um the aggregator died, I just didn't know how to like make it keep going. And then I joined Akon Capital in November last year, so it's only been a few months. Um with a viewpoint to like really like to build a brand as opposed to having a dropshipping store. Um that you know, in learning all the things that you learn as being part of the community, it made sense for me. I was actually just gonna not like revive my dropshipping store. I'm like, I'm done with it, like I've tried so many times, I sold the products on Etsy, etc. etc. Like I knew it sold, but I was just kind of done. But I'm like, no, actually, let me just like try again. Let's see. Um, and so I started writing ads again in January, late January. Um, and then within the last two months with that dropshipping store, I made 10k um whilst I'm building the other brand which is in the supplier stage at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

So very cool. What would you say? Um and I'm I'm just curious, I was I'll ask a couple of questions to each of you just in relation to I guess like what's been helpful working with the team, working with the Hammond, the community, the coaching, etc. Just some of the key points that you feel like have provided the most value to you that's helped you to get the results that you have got. Harsh, what would you say? Have there been any standout things or for you um, you know, starting as you know, the the truck driver situation, have there been any key moments through your kind of journey with e-com capital that you would say have helped the most?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Uh I would say meta as of course, thanks to him. Like everything I've learned, I've learned from him. So he's like kind of my mentor, I would say. And I'm also helping him.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Kind of, I'm like consulted, like kind of. Maybe he is.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

I have a little bit of respect for him. No, no, no, I have a lot of respect for him. And I'm actually working with my friend as well, helping him to make him make his store. So, and I know actually like now what I'm doing and how the structures work. So it's been really helpful. So, everything I've learned, I've learned from Ecom Capital for sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Love that. Love that, very cool. And in terms of so so the meta ads are one skill that you feel like you're pretty confident in now that you weren't before?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, I would say. Um meta ads, I would say, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Love that. Joyce, how about yourself? Any key standout things for you that um you you feel like has been the most helpful?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah, um there are many, but um top three for me. Um, number one is that you the econ capital makes um reaching 100k months very normal. And in my prior um coaching experience when I made a salad shop with it, it almost felt like I was just doing this whilst you know, I was crossing my fingers to anyway, and um and so coming into e com capital, it was less about the phase and it's more about the strategy, which is really like the best thing. Um and like number two, it's about not just your ad account, but it's your website, and then how do you pull certain leaders as well as price to within that strategy to get to that 10k, 100k months, that sort of thing. So that's been really valuable for me in terms of um building this business. Um because again, I've got a bit I've um I'm living off my savings, which is scary. And I'm taking but I'm taking a bet on myself to go, well, no, actually, I actually think that I've got the skills to be able to do this and with the right support and the right coaching, there really is going to be a way where it's less about um crossing your fingers, but more about strategy, and that's what I really love.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Hope, hope and vibes, I call it.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Let's not build a business on hope and vibes.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

No, one thousand percent. So yeah, no, that's what's been that's what's been really excellent about it.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Do you um do you like like would you say that you feel more confident in terms of like your skill sets and your abilities to be able to kind of get what you want in relation to your business now versus when you first started?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Oh, for sure. Like 10 10,000 times more. Um yeah, just the clarity in when you look at some data on meta, you're like, okay, well, is it my ads or is it my or is it my store? And just getting really clear on that, and obviously the coaches and like Heyman and having consistent contact with him on a weekly basis, um, it really affirms what I'm learning. Because whenever before I go on the call with Heyman, I'm like, I bet he's gonna say this, and blah blah blah blah blah, given my data. Um, and then I kind of test whether I'm actually learning based on then what he says in the call, and it's a really great kind of takeaway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Well that. Hammond, what about from you? What what what's your perspective on these two individuals as far as like um any key uh things that you've observed that you think has contributed to their success from your from your view?

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Absolutely. So I actually believe that both of them are, as you mentioned, like they're very dangerous. Like in terms of business coming in, they're focused, they're serious. Like this is something I've noticed many times. You can prepare a strategy, think about it, but the moment you run the ads, you might act differently, or you might actually be scared or not doing the actions, you know, you're not taking the risks. So I see that both of them technically, like we worked like for a long time talking about fixing things in the funnel and updating the business, kind of looking at those solutions, but you guys actually committed to to fixing the problems and you're very serious. You're not coming in to just kind of learn about it and and and do something else, and that's something that I all like always value. Like I mentioned this to you guys, and you know this. So, like, for example, you know, harsh, you built a brand, you did this, you got to 10k, it was not necessarily good, like the product quality was bad. You didn't necessarily just give up. So it's something I looked at and you did pivot and rebuilt again, and you did two brands, which I think it was not necessarily the best thing, and I don't think it's good to focus on two things at the same time. Probably Joyce, we can talk about that. But um, the thing is you doubled down on the thing that worked and you scaled your business, and you're right now stable growing your business. Same thing, Joyce. You actually mentioned to me, like I'm full-time doing this. I remember you traveling and doing the call in the airport, essentially, you're not missing on weapons. And it's something that I value, like when I see you're committed, you're doing the work, you're not coming in to just get to 10k, you want to get to 100k, which I think that 10k is good, but 100k is where you have a like serious business and a serious asset. So I think that's a target, and I'm very happy to work with you guys, kind of getting you to that next level. In terms of criteria to answer your question, I think that they're very serious, like they're committed and they're doing the work, they're not taking this as a side project, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

I think that's a very underlying characteristic for a lot of founders that win, is they um they see it and it's similar to what you said previously, Joyce, where it was like um, you know, I did a lot of side hustles or I always had a few things on the go. Um, and it's like that kind of gets you to a certain level where you maybe experiment with certain things, but sometimes it can actually be like, I wouldn't say damaging, but almost damaging in the sense where it's like um nothing is fully committed to because you don't want to fully fail. So you kind of like try and you try and you try and you try, and it seems like with this business, for both of you guys, you've like, okay, cool, I've figured out some stuff that maybe doesn't work, I've figured out what I don't want to do and what's good and bad. Let's go in. You know what I mean? And and I've never seen an environment whereby um a founder that fully commits to the one thing and actually like you know continues to invest the resources, the time, the energy, the attention on one thing doesn't win. It might take time, but it's like the outcome is going to be disproportionately better than like a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit here. So I just want to recognize you guys for that because uh it's it's it's really um it's really rewarding for you, but it's also like for me seeing that kind of like risk and taking the risk and taking those bold steps, obviously with you know structure and support, which is interesting because I find that um what you guys have seen now, and Joyce, you mentioned there in terms of okay, so I have the skill sets and the abilities now that I didn't have before. It's given me so much more confidence that I never had before. And the thing is, if this was to all go away, the coaching and stuff we would provide, you would still have the confidence, the skill sets, the abilities to make decisions and continue growing your business. Obviously, we can get you there faster and we continue um doing that and get you to the 100k level, but it's like that's where the real value comes from, you know, because the the the money that your business earns is just an extension of like the skills that you've developed to be able to make decisions and get certain outcomes, right? And it's like you would never have got to that level, either of you guys, if you didn't have the ability to take risks, bet on yourself, and go like, this is what I'm serious about. So I just want to double down on that because it's um it's a characteristic that I see strong founders um take consistently, is they take big bets on themselves, right? And they know that they will catch up in terms of um their skills, need to sometimes um follow through on their bets, and they'll take an investment and be like, Well, now you gotta go. You know what I mean? Now I've got to follow through and learn the skills. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

I think you mentioned it at the previous event, Sasha, but it was like it's it's like going to an island and burning the boat. Like, I'm here now, let's just make this work. Yeah, and that's definitely true for me.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

And think about this. One thing I want to say here is that this is probably from Alex Hermosy, but it's like expansion is how armies die. It's like just like think about this. Like you're expanding, expanding, you're not doing like you're not concentrating your effort. And I've seen this in like like a lot of entrepreneurs, including Sasha here, it's really focusing on one thing and kind of mastering it and making it profitable and scalable rather than just doing these things and you're not necessarily even getting the result because you just don't have that effort to get there. So I think the expansion is not positive for some businesses, particularly e-commerce. It's really focusing on one thing, what is working is it's creative, let's do more of it, and and finding that gap and kind of doubling down on it.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

So let's jump into some um some particular details for each of your businesses because I think you guys have done some great work in the last um you know, three months, six months, etc. Um, but I think in terms of I'll the way that I'd like you to think through the rest of this conversation is like this. So, and this is what I this is the way that I think towards myself in relation to the future all the time. So I'm like, okay, so um, and and if you think about when both of you started versus where you are now, how much uh knowledge, skills, abilities, like just reflect for a moment when you first started in e-commerce capital and think about like how laughably stupid you were with so many things. Can you can can can you remember like creatives and ads and like running, oh my god, financials, oh my goodness. And so if you think through that lens and you go, okay, so um whoa, like if if if that version of me who started three months ago, six months ago, has somehow, oh my god, who even was I? How dumb was I? I do this all the time to myself. How bad was I? And and I managed to get to where I am now, which is which is okay. Like it's like I've done all right, but it's like think about you now and think about the knowledge and the skills and the abilities and the experience and the kind of risk profile you've got, right? And it's like, whoa, right? And so if we think through that lens in relation to the future, it's like imagine how much better, faster, and also more accurate you could be with relation to the outcomes you're gonna get from the future. Does that make sense? It's like it's wild because what happens is people take uh a certain outcome that they've kind of like generated from a lesser skilled version of themselves from the past and they get some good results, and then they still continue taking kind of small bets that almost reflect their beginner mindset. Does that make sense? And this is something that I I will continue to do, and I know Hammond's very good at this because he always anchors it as if the 100k month is just what you're not there yet. It's like hurry up already, you know, and and and so it's like we will always push you to get to that level faster because we also know that it's like it's like that, in the same way that when you started and now you've gone from there to here, and you look back and you go, oh yeah, that was like sure, there was some things I had to learn, but like, geez, dude, it happened pretty easy. It happened pretty fast. You know what I mean? If you look back, you were like, it was kind of difficult, but it's like you didn't all of a sudden like become Einstein and learn like the theory of relativity. There was a few key pieces of learnings that you'd learnt and some coaching time that you spent with Hammond, and you're like, okay, cool. And the next double or the next triple or the next 10x will be the same. Does that make sense? It goes from where you are now, and all of a sudden you'll wake up and it'll be August and you'll be like, oh yeah, we just did 140,000 this month.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Yeah, it's like I'm waiting, where's the million? I actually have some messages like, hey, where's a million? Where's a million? That's the thing. And we were talking about 10k before, but right now it's like, hey, where's my million?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

And and so the reason I wanted to um put that in perspective first is because when you think through that lens and you look at like the um future of where your business is going, it also helps you to um constrain onto the things that you need to do and not need to do now. Does that make sense? Because if you if you if you continue thinking small, how could we go from 10 to 12, 12 to 14, 14 to 16, 25 to 30, 30 to 32, 32, etc., etc. Like you think in very small multiples and then you make decisions based on, oh, how can I just get a couple of extra points here? How could I get a couple of extra points there? Does that make sense? Versus if we go, okay, so if we need to get to 100k, if we need to get to 180,000, right? What needs to be true in the company? Like, how do we need to make decisions today, right now, that's gonna constrain your focus? Because I tell you what, both of you guys, the number one blocker that you're gonna experience between where you are now and$100,000,$150,000 a month is all the possibilities of things that you could do. That is gonna be the biggest blocker, right? I could do this, I should do that, that would be nice. That's a suggestion. Oh, that's a good idea. Maybe they had success, and maybe I should do that as well. Right? Both of you are gonna be massively constrained, also mainly because you're, I'm assuming, um, still pretty well one man operators, one woman operators. You don't have heaps of resources, you don't have heaps of people, and so your attention is similar to what Hammond mentioned, um, in terms of like how that gets uh diluted as the business grows. So your ability to continue refining that focus onto the one thing is gonna be your superpower. And if you look at um, there's a company, All Birds, I don't know if you you probably know them. Harsh, they sell sneakers over in the US. They were like they're a huge company. Um, they were valued at$4.2 billion, right? And then they they they IPO'd, they went onto the public market in the US, they opened into shoes, clothing, um, uh, sports gear, uh, a number of different like verticals, right? Their main product was shoes, okay? They IPO'd at$4.2 billion. Two years later, um, they were valued at$150 million. Like 90% wipeout of their entire value, mainly because all those other verticals weren't tested, right? No one was buying those things yet. They were entering into the retail, they were trying to penetrate marketplace, they were trying to do paid ads, and so they had to lose 90% of their valuation to then go, we just do shoes now, which is what they should have done to begin with. Do you get what I'm saying? And so it's very much the same with newfounders, just replace the 4 billion with 25,000 or 10,000, and we go, we must concentrate the efforts to then get up to the level where we can continue, you know, diversifying attention and scaling. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 19:51

I think also like just like Joyce, for example, you were in a situation where like you mentioned, like I need to create this income, right? I need to create it, there's stress coming from that. But just so that you're aware, all the entrepreneurs they're creating their income. So you're kind of entering the level where it's expected. Wherever you want, you can actually get, but you need to prepare for that and you need to do the work. So I think that shift, or because you've been like in the corporate space for a while, which is kind of like, hey, I'll do the work and I'll be paid, it's essentially very different from a business. We're used to the opposite. It's actually we'll do the work and then we're gonna get the returns, but the returns are not proportional to the time, right? And and and I think you're you're you're right now discovering that it took you a year, you did like 10,000, like in that probably 13,000 that first year, but then in a month you do like the 10k. But reality is it's one week where you made 3,000 plus. So if you think about it, it's almost like it's not proportional. Now think about if the next month you get to 20, 30k, 50k, 100k. It's gonna be again very possible, but you need to do the work. So I see this from that perspective. There's no limitation. Congratulations, you can scale your income, but it's gonna be tied to your work. So that's the challenge.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Yeah, for sure. And like that's the reason why I wanted like an online e-commerce business because its ability to scale. Um there were so many things in there, Sasha, that you mentioned, but one thing that I really want to one thing that's really resonated with me is that the whole notion of the next time you do something, you just ultimately will get faster and faster and faster, or the returns and the rewards will get faster. So for me, this the version of my dropshipping store, it is effectively the sixth version of the drop shipping store. Like I've had two runs of it on Etsy. Etsy has this thing where like it scans their marketplace and they identify that you're dropshipping and also spend your account. I tried that twice and I'm like, okay, well, this is not sustainable. I'm gonna go build at my Shopify store, and then yeah, this is the fourth version of my Shopify store. But every single time it's been like I've just acquired new skills and I'm faster at this now, and I'm like and I can read my meta out of start a better now, and I can like change my store at a at a win now. Like it's really Like I just accumulate all those skills, but that's also part of the reason why I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna resurre resurrect this store. But um there's just something in me that tells me like no, this can actually work, I just need to refine it, um, and and just go.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

So I think on a on a tactical level, I think that um both of you guys are um in somewhat similar stages in terms of like you're in that 10 to 100k level. Harsh a little bit further along in terms of more volume, more creatives, more more kind of ad spend, and then also more revenue, right? And then Joyce, um I don't know, maybe um next time we speak, you'll be ahead of Harsh. Who knows?

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Competition. I was doing more than him. I'm coming after you, Harsh.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yes, but it's actually just competition, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

Yeah, but I think you should be scared if I was to look at it from that perspective, because you went from like almost zero to 10k, which essentially is like you're you're you're kind of getting fast within two months, you get to a certain level that took him a little bit more, I would say. But I would say that you know you can you can really definitely do more, and it's again it's a fair market. So if you do more work, you're gonna be rewarded. And I think both of you guys are like I like Harsh, it doesn't seem like you're very competitive, but you have a very scalable business. But I would say you should be more competitive. You should look at, well, I need to kind of get to the 100k fast because I'm like not as fast as I should be, without taking the the risk we talked about. Like those kind of weird things you do when you want to double your business.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

So I think um in terms of the the levers that you each of you want to pull on. I think I mean like from what we went through earlier in terms of uh the numbers, I think the inconsistency as an example, Harsh, like to tackle that, I think that um the main thing that you want to establish. I mean, let me ask you this in terms of your ads that you have at the moment, you mentioned you've got three to five, uh was it three to five kind of concepts or sorry, seven to eight kind of like winners um that are currently working and then one to two that are producing like good volume. So um, do you have within your ad account at the moment, based on the volume you're spending, are there a few kind of like angles or messages, maybe like hooks that you've defined as like this crushes? Like this, like do you have that kind of established?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah, uh of course. Uh the winners I have, I always try to make iterations of that first, and then I try like testing new concepts. So, like, suppose if I have like if you have a if you drink too much coffee, then you need my lip balm, for example, or if you smoke, then you like need my lip balm. So if I if I found that okay, smoking angle is obviously working really good, then I will make more iterations of that angle rather than just you know uh experimenting new angles, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Yes, so so just to just just to take that and then roll that. So Joyce, that is the um kind of the current thing that needs to be your focus, right? Because what it and I'm just gonna assume right here for a second, but I I I would imagine the creatives that you're putting into market, some are working, some are not working, some are good, some are bad, um, but perhaps you don't yet have three, four strong established, like okay, this angle talking about coffee uh and association seems to always work, right? And so similarly within Eurocant, we want to have like established, okay. So this angle, when I talk about the light in this format with this kind of avatar in mind, it seems as though we're always getting the traction and we're always getting performance, right? And so as you scale up, what's gonna be more and more and more required because half the biggest risk that you have is okay, what happens if two or three of those volume-based um performance ads tank and you haven't got anything to take their place, then your performance is gonna go through the floor and that inconsistency is gonna turn into a downwards trend, right? And in the same way, Joyce, for you, your um kind of like like other version of that is like, okay, so what are my three or four angles that I'm locked into that I'm iterating on, and that they represent the 80% of spend in the account, like hashtag iteration, iteration, iteration, iteration. They are the strong things that your business then gets built on because it's like I don't know if you guys yet have fully experienced the crushing nature of like one ad um that hits like a five, six, seven X RailAS, and then it scales ROWAS and it scales volume, and you're like very rare.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Like it's like it's a lot of work, it's not an easy thing, but when you see it, it's beautiful. Like it is it's like you're witnessing like a child's birth and God at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

It's so it's wonderful, it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

I've seen it, it's like it's just the ad account, it's like it's just you wake up, it's so good when you see the 9x multiple, you can increase the budget, it doesn't tank. I've seen it again. One ad took a business to like more than 100k in revenue. I showed this even in in some of the 10 like 100k level. Like, we've seen this, like one ad would just magical, just takes you to the next level.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yeah, I'm looking forward to just having that as a reality. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

No, but the the reason the reason I think that's important is because I always like to think of it in the in the inversion perspective. And so it's like um harsh, as an example, what is the best performance as far as ROAS goes within the ads in your ad account at the moment? Like what have you had like a 3x? Have you had a 4x? Like what's the kind of performance that you've had at a consistent level, not like a oh one day we made a lot of sales and we turned you know what I mean? Like what's a consistent performance ROAS?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Right now I have a one UGC AI ad which is like at uh 1.8 ROAS, I would say, and it has spent around$800, which is like a volume driver to my account, I would say. But I have other ads which are not getting like enough spend but are at but are at like three ROAS, maybe four ROAS. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Got it. Okay. So the thing is this let's say for example we just take that four X ROAS ad and say, okay, now the the main block of it, like it's like this my ad account could be performing at 4x ROAS, but because I don't yet know how to take my volume seller at 1.8 and bring it up to 4 through creative iteration and messaging and adjusting of like you know, sequencing in that creative, I'm losing out on 2x the profit that I could be. Does that make sense? And so when you think through that lens as far as like, okay, so what is my performance now? Well, it's like 1.8. Well, what could it be? Well, it could be four because I'm getting four in the account. So if I'm getting it one time or if I'm getting it consistently in this at a low volume level, it just means that I need to work out how to scale that up to a 4x level. Does that make sense? And and your creative process at the moment, like all of the engineering of the way you're thinking in relation to your creative wants to be towards that end. It wants to be like, okay, so I am currently, you know, getting this 4x, but we're doing it at low volume, which means that it's working, but when it goes up to a colder audience, it stops working, essentially. Right? So it's like, how do I make that same angle, that same message, that same structure and sequence of the creative more compelling and more attractive to more people? And also it's similar to what we said before we turned the podcast on. I do heavily think that there is a component of that that is going to be taking the AI version and turning it human, right? Because it's like there's going to, if you think about it from a sophistication level, right? So we go people that are at the bottom, bottom, bottom of the funnel, and this is for both of you guys, bottom of the funnel. They already have the exact problem that you that that that your product solves. They already know your product. They're like, I need the lip balm, I my lips are bad, I've tried the other lip balm, I'm gonna buy this lip balm, right? Joyce, yours is like, I've got the light, I've got the competitor's light, I know exactly the type of light that I want. Oh, this is in front of me now, and this is why your statics work really well, Joyce. Because we're targeting the bottom of the funnel in terms of the people that have the highest degree of sophistication, they just need a big FU kind of prompt to buy. That's it. Okay, both of you guys have similar kind of structures here, and what we will run into is like as we continue going up in the funnel, we're gonna target colder and colder people, which means they have higher levels of skepticism, they don't yet know your product, they don't yet know your brand, they've never seen you before, they've not bought a competitor's product, and if you were to put a hard offer in front of them, it's like going all the way to fourth base when we haven't even gone on for for for a coffee date yet. And it's like, wait, what? This is a bit fast. Does that make sense? And so as you scale up your budgets, both of you are gonna run into the same issue in terms of like we can continue scaling and scaling and scaling the AI, but hush, you're gonna need to get very good in terms of turning the AI ads into something that is like people look at it and they go, yeah, that's AI, but this looks pretty good, let's buy. That's what you're having at the moment. Does that make sense? It's like, it's yeah, uh, yeah, okay, I kind of need it. I'm gonna buy it anyway. Does that make sense? It's going from a suggestive kind of a nice to have opportunity to buy into like, how do we take someone that they're like, I don't even know I have that problem, educate them about the problem, then convert them. Does that make sense? And those people, if they were to see the AI stuff, they're gonna be like, oh, like, how does that fit in with me? You understand what I mean? It's like we're converting people in the lower stage of the funnel mainly because they are very, very, very aware they need to solve the problem. And so as we scale up, your ability, like I said, to get very, very, very specific with that creative process, how you're iterating what you're doing in terms of stages and stages and stages inside of those AI creatives needs to get very good. And then I I would I would be very focused on like, okay, how can I take my best performing AI ads and get them in the hands of a human that looks very similar so that they could then duplicate and take that from full AI into and then test the AI versus the human side by side and be like, oh, okay, and that kind of becomes like think about it what what used to happen previously, okay. So, like if we wind back two years ago and AI video very bad, you know what I mean? Very, very, very bad. You would never use it, okay? And so it's like humans used to get the UGC creators, they'd send all the product out there, a very expensive expedition to find winning ads, right? And so you're in a position where you've done that in a way where it's almost negligible from a cost perspective, hardly costs anything, but then I think you can amplify by taking it into a human approach and finish it's like a little cherry on top, the icing on the cake, where it will really strengthen the performance. I think that's my view, also because of the fact that um you're selling a beauty product uh and women want to feel like they're buying from there's there's a lot of safety and trust involved with that purchase. You know what I mean? And it's like we can trust to a certain degree. Like I said, if I'm low in that stage of the funnel and I'm like, look, I need the product, I'll buy it from an AI, I'll buy it from a human, I'll buy it from a static, I'll buy it from a video. I don't really care, I'm gonna buy it. Does that make sense? And I think you're in that concentrated market right now, but we need to start getting into that top of funnel, which will be more sophisticated people, they'll be a little bit more unaware, and this is where you might see more instability. Does that make sense? Because what worked in this hyper-concentrated um pool of people that are like, they're gonna buy anything, right? Won't work as well here. So you've got to get a lot more advanced and a lot more strategic with like AI development to overcome the objections here, as well as I would be very much testing performance in relation to how could I get this best performing content in the hands of a human and amplify that performance even more. I'd love to see that tested. That'd be a that'd be a big what's your thoughts on that, Hammond, in terms of that structure?

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Oh, right. So my structure would be like I'm probably gonna go opposite here. You probably like okay, what are you saying? So um, I actually believe that yeah, controversial. Okay, Heyman going opposite. But I do believe, by the way, that what you're saying here is actually what I would think about from that scale perspective. But the thing that I would say is potentially that bottom of the funnel might actually be massive just from a like kind of volume perspective. So I'm not saying that this is not a good strategy at all. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing strategy. I actually believe it's a very scalable one for a wide market. But think about the bottom of the funnel, it's profitable for you 30% right now, right? So why would you do something else up until I've seen that kind of ceiling and that limitation? So my view on this would be you can really you know convert people, and even I would argue in that market by telling them, well, this is an AI video, so essentially you're revealing that, and this is why you should buy the product. So we can actually position content that's almost like excels at converting people that are, let's say, more kind of inclined to buy from a regular person talking. So I think there are ways to navigate this particular challenge. So my recommendation for you obviously, this is the next thing to get into a massive market, use the human part, kind of like not the human part, use the uh use human essentially to convert. But I still want to see that army of AI content we talked about kind of you know conquer the world. That's my view on it. So I still believe that we can scale AI. And and by the way, this is for every person looking at this. This is, in my opinion, the future. You can test with AI and then you can scale with UGC original content, which makes a lot of sense. But in our case, the bottom of the funnel might be massive. And we are also selling um, in his case, the lip balm, it's actually consumable. So if we're profitable 30% up front, that makes it kind of an easier way to scale even those sales and we can acquire much more aggressively.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

That's the key thing that I would I would add into what I said is like um only start doing the net new things um when there is like a a like, say for example, right now, Hash, you next month double your ad spend, you go to$60,000 in sales, and profit margins stay the same. And then the next month you double your ad spend again, and then you go to$90,000, but your profit margin goes to, I don't know,$4,000. Then I'd be like, ooh, okay. Like that's let's now perhaps look at something of that nature. Does that make sense? It's like only when there is something that actually prevents me from doing more of what I'm doing will I go into something to do it better. Does that make sense? Right now, if your margins are 30% and you're crushing it and you're doing very well, then it's just like, how do I force more volume into the system so that I can test better ads and just scale more? And then at the point where you might see diminishing returns or profitability kind of dig, okay, cool, we have to get better with these ads. People are just the fatigue is increasing, the click rate is decreasing, the view rate is decreasing. We've got to do something to really ratchet up performance. And then I would look to do that then. I wouldn't start doing that and introduce that right now, just to make sure. But I agree with you, Hammond. I think that that's correct in terms of sequencing. But yeah, I think at that level, once you see some kind of performance drop, then I would definitely definitely look at like how can we become more precise with the ad content.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah, I was actually thinking like once I hit 100k per month, then I would actually have more UGC uh creators, like actual human. But sometimes like when I make ads.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

Well, you're bringing actual human. Sorry to pass you. So you're actually changing. We didn't agree on this. It was like we're gonna be AI until the end, if you remember. I'm just surprised.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Of course, because uh sometimes when I make AI ads, I was like, wow, is this is this AI? Because sometimes I cannot believe myself, like because I had like a couple of UGC creators who have shocking your own.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Like I was not aware that you're shocking yourself, like you were like surprised, all right.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Yeah, because I had a couple of uh UGC creators who created video for me, and now I compare them with what I'm creating, it's like a day and night difference. So yeah, so that's why I think like AI, I I think I can scale this up to a million dollars with AI by all means, man.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Like I said, this is um this is advice based on um what Meta have mentioned as far as like best practice on platform, what they are seeing. If you want to prove it all wrong and continue just going, and if the economics of the business continue to demonstrate that you don't need to introduce any humans and just continue smashing the AI, absolutely do that. I think this is an amazing, like I yeah, I just think this is an amazing like opportunity for you because it's like um previously this would never be possible, and now it's possible, and you have this real opportunity to take it all the way to the nth degree and see how far you can run with it. You know, I I I think that's what's most exciting. I I do also think um, similar to what Hammond mentioned, the the the big unrealized opportunity of uh back-end sales or anything in relation to um renewals or consumables or you know, repeat business, anything of that nature will also be something that um depending on your product quality and depending on the um kind of like sequence of communication that you continue to meet people at after they've purchased once, twice, three times, etc., that's gonna be a big profit center for your business if you run it correctly and the product is very good when they use it. So at the level right now, you might not notice it too much because you're like 26,000. I'm not really making that much on back end sales, so it's okay, but you scale that up to you know 100k a month and you could be making$20,000,$30,000 of you know really high gross margin sales on the back end, and you're not doing that, your business will really notice it, you know. So aiming for like 30 plus percent of like repeat business is a very healthy percentage, and it just puts you in a in a great place where you've got so much extra margin for ad spend to continue reinvesting back into new customers. So I think that's also something to really strongly consider after you reach that 50, 60, 70k level, I'd be really concentrating on the back-end level as well.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah, I'm gonna be saying like AI, AI only. So I'm I'm actually gonna be controversial, like hey, Heyman, Menace, AI. So I'm really pushing more AI because I I do believe, by the way, we're still gonna have scares in trouble, like humans in trouble of the market. That's something I'm seeing as well. And and and I would say with an abundance of AI, actually having UGC content would be something different, and it's gonna be something that converts better. So I don't necessarily think um that we're just gonna win by doing only AI, but I believe that at this level, we're actually in a stage where you're doing much better than a regular person using AI. So that's that's an edge that we have right now because the content quality is really good. And for your audience, they're not actually having any opposition around that. They're not saying no, this is not good or objection essentially. So for me, it's almost like this is a gap. You have an edge in the market, we should scale as fast as possible. Then we're gonna bring the human, and it might have might be a million, as you mentioned, like a million, but for me, that's like let's max out this level because we're not there yet. And I think let's focus on human-free, right? That's my key.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

I mean, I'd like to I like I'd like to just go the other way and say, look, in general, would a human trust a human more or an AI more? Questionable.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Questionable.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

AI.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

I would say AI, I would say AI. I trust more Chat GPT.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

If I was sitting across the desk from Hammond or at ChatGBT, here's the thing. Are you guys, are you guys relying on your chat GPT to make all decisions in your ad account, or are you coming in and having conversations with Hammond about your ad account?

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Of course, Haven. Why? And there's nothing. There's nuances to there's nuanced responses to that question. Yeah. Yeah. Because have you seen Harsh's AI ads? They look so real.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

I've seen a bunch of them. I think that maybe maybe a month ago, there was a there was a bunch that I saw that. I don't know if they've gotten like disproportionately better since then.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Yeah, it's really good.

SPEAKER_03 41:28

But not only that, but I would say I trust just to be clear, I do know that you know you guys are probably like gonna trust my decision making to a certain level because of the expertise or things that I've seen in the past, potentially in my current exposures. But think about this. If I was to tell you, well, Chat GPT told you about this thing in terms of information, and then someone told you about that, you're probably gonna trust ChatGPT just from a reliability information. Like if I was to tell you, well, this thing could save you, let's say, 20% in terms of whatever, you're gonna probably trust more AI than a human because it seems like AI won't fly, right? Just from that perspective. So I would say AI still have this, there's like an edge from that. I I would say, so yeah, that's why I'm arguing here. I'm gonna be pro AI.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

I mean, I'm I I've running AI ads for like three to four months now, and I haven't got a single comment saying that it's AI. So I think that's uh that's a positive signal.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

So very good. Let's continue, let's continue. I think those are the opportunities that I see with your brand Hush in terms of um and and and hey, the thing is you might introduce human content in your ads, and then all of a sudden um it because people have become so accustomed to seeing the AI ads, it actually like downgrades your performance, and people then there's some comparison and they go, oh my god, this is all who knows? You know what I mean? But what you're doing is is is very strong, and I think there's great opportunity to scale it up higher. I think um big opportunity to push more volume. I think consistency in relation to your out account structure in terms of how you're doing this testing environment and being very, very, very detailed around Mondays. We do this, this is the performance, everything's tracked, measured, quantified in terms of what happened and why it happened. You know, Wednesday slash Thursday, new testing goes live and continuing that process very, very, very consistently so that you can continue getting better and better performance out of the winners. And I think there's very big opportunity there for you in the next up-and-coming period to do something to monetize the existing customers that have already purchased, because I think there's a lot of money that is not being capitalized on by you know using that repeat situation. Um, simply simply through suggesting people to come back and purchase or giving them like you know a sequence customer journey that you communicate with them on uh at certain intervals, I think that will help as well to just generate more revenue for your business and more profit, most importantly.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

Yeah, and I would I want I I want to say something here, just to be clear. Sasha actually is the most vibrate pro AI person that I know, just to be clear. Oh my god. He actually has I know I'm sharing with you guys like MANIS and all he actually introduced me like to these tools. So to be clear, he actually was like, Hey, you know what? Manus is a good tool. So Um, I know I'm talking about this like just pro AI, but to be honest, you're talking to a person that actually would probably say more AI heavy than like what I've what I've seen in the market. So, yeah, just saying this. Hammond took some time to even test the manus when I sent it to you.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

I was like, maybe it took no try to see it. I'm like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Just use it, it's so good.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Let's continue. Joyce, uh I the the the the things that we discussed before in terms of your situation. So um conversion rate, one of the biggest blockers at the moment in terms of performance, um, high average order value, uh, and then your margins are pretty healthy in terms of what you have access to. Right now, I think your acquisition cost being around that 250 mark is double what it should be, and essentially you're paying 2x for acquisition, and that's a component of where your profit should have been because you're you're essentially like 50 to 60 percent cost is going into ads versus 20 to 30 percent. So that's where I see the biggest bottleneck at the moment um from a conversion rate perspective. Um, Hammond, any view on this from your lens first in terms of uh tactical fixes on the conversion rate side?

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Yeah, so absolutely. So I do believe that you know you pick your, like you pick a battle and you try to win that battle. So in our case, the first one we got was essentially let's get the winning ads, and we got actually some ads that are performing. Right now we're looking at well, the conversion rates, um, if you have an army of winning ads, it's gonna be easier to improve the page, versus if you don't have any proven concept, then essentially you're optimizing a page with you know nothing, essentially. Like you're kind of not trusting even your ads. So the goal was initially working with Joyce was building that like kind of infrastructure, kind of backend like sales that we can do so that we can optimize a page. So it was always a goal is get the revenue and then fix the page, but the sequence was very important. So right now, obviously, we're having much more stability, much more kind of like uh stable admin, I would say to a certain degree. We're looking at the page and optimizing it. And I actually worked with Joyce in terms of clarity, using it to look at the heat zone, like heat map essentially of the page to see where is the I would say area where or where are the areas that we need to focus on. So my recommendation, and she's already aware of that, is looking at clarity, dissecting those sections. We saw that first picture being like uh I would say probably a big impact for for her business. It's gonna be split testing, but committing to stable ad spin while we do that so that we can see the impact of the conversion rate. So she's already doing that, so I'm assuming, not assuming, I know we're gonna be cutting the cost in half if we keep doing this and and sticking to data in terms of optimization. So that's where I see the business heading.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Got it. Okay. So continuing to just to split test in terms of um image on a landing on the product display page, is that what you said? Having like that main focused image, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Well, let me yeah, let me give some context on that. So when I created the store, I originally had a product page, but it had so I had green glass green glass appended lights, but there were four different uh styles appended lights within that product page. And then Havan was like, maybe we should just like or no, I said that. I'm like, oh maybe I should just like split out the styles in their own product page so that make that change. Haven also looked at my ads and was like, well, you're you're promoting all four of the green lights that you are. The landing image is only one light, so like let's get that really clear and then like six things. So I then just ads or three other lights and just focused ads on the one light. So once they saw the ad, it makes sense that they would then see that light on the page. Um and then I changed the images because I was originally I originally just had images from you know six months ago or eight months ago from when I started the store. Um difference between my images now is that I've used AI and then all the life cell images as opposed to the images that I had initially. So it's been in the last couple of months like the whole process of refinement just to make sure that uh there's consistency in my messaging throughout. So they see an ad and they get to my page and all the lines. Truth be told, it wasn't that two months ago. So um so yeah, that's been really cool to kind of walk through that journey on the website side whilst you know creating the diversity on the ad side and getting even more clear on who my avatar is and by seeing what ads are working. It's a really cool cycle, right? Because you're like, oh, okay, well that ad's working. I'm clearly talking to the right person there. How do I talk to them better? So um, yeah, it's just gonna be a continual process in the I guess ad refinement and ad messaging from here too.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

So I think that that's um super important what you just meant mentioned there in terms of um uh alignment congruence in terms of like how they uh see the ad versus how they see the landing page versus how they um you know have that product experience. Like the the the linkage through that entire thing is like critical. One thing that I wanted to share, which I think might be helpful uh for both of you, is uh this here. So now this is um this is a really good way to think about uh, for example, versus the typical traditional kind of like um avatar or like demographic or like however that looks. But if you use this kind of like um, you know, CPO, which is like circumstance, problem, and then outcome. Um, and so a lot of people uh certainly lead with the problem, right? This is what you've got, this is the issue, this is the blocker, etc. etc. Um, and so if we look at like circumstance, circumstance really means like um the reality that the individual is like living in right now. Um, and this is different from the problem, right? Because the problem is what creates sometimes their reality, their reality is how they talk to themselves in their head, um, the the very things that they experience day to day as part of their circumstances, that then links into the problem, which is the direct like pain, frustration, or obstacle that exists right now, and then the outcome. So if we link back one level before we go into problem and look at like, okay, so what is the exact like environment that that person is in right now from a circumstantial perspective? What do they do when they wake up? How do they experience this thing? What things are going through their mind? What is the exact language that they are having? Who do they speak to during the day? What are the text messages they might be sending day to day? What is the language that's going on in their mind? If you can if you can really package that up there and have the the conversation through your messaging as if it is linked into the circumstance before you go into the problem, because otherwise you you're essentially just like problem forcing and problem punching. And so when you land in that circumstance level first, it helps people to go, they get me, so I trust them with my problem. Does that make sense? They're speaking the same language, that it's as if they're in my head, right? And so the clearer you can kind of articulate the specifics in relation to their current circumstance and what's happening in that circumstance, that factual reality, like they're waking up every morning, they're you know, rolling out of bed, they're feeling this, there's a certain pain, the first moment of thought in their head is this, they check their Instagram, there's two posts from people that they know just like them who've just, I don't know, had XYs that outcome, there's a feeling of dread and uncertainty about going to work, whatever's going on, but really spelling that out helps you to think like what is the language that they are using? Because the better as marketers, so if you think about it, so it's like if we can communicate to them right in a way that they want, versus us telling them um, do this or get this, right? It's like we're trying to communicate so that it feels like it's native in their head, versus being like, I'm trying to like say some stuff that's gonna get you over here and do this. Do you understand what I mean? It's like we're trying to like have them um feel as though that this is like such a connected message because I'm landing through each of these components, the the circumstance, the problem, and the outcome in a way that they just like it's as if this problem, it's as if this product has been designed for me. It's as if it's like this is made specifically for me. The trust factor goes up tremendously. And so I think like really linking the messaging a little bit deeper in some of this, uh, Joyce, especially, and I think for both of you guys, this will help to um offset and also increase further the the AI usage. So it's like the AI component, all of the ads, how do we make it even more trusting? Speak in such a way where people read it and they're like, Oh, you're in my head. Like, I I feel as though this is made for me. So this has been very helpful for a lot of um clients. It's been also very helpful for me in all the marketing that I do is thinking through those three levels, and then obviously, like I said, the outcome, which is like the ideal. And I think this is also incredibly important to think of in terms of um both of your products is like what is the um outcome and not the product kind of end state. And what I mean by that is like um your product helps someone to do something, and the thing that you sell is not the product, but it's the result of them using the product, and so it's like the clearer that you can actually like identify that thing and be like, what is the moment? What is the um, you know, I just turned the light on, and the first time, geez, look at the look at the glow in this room. Like, oh my, like that's what you sell. You don't sell the uh the stuff, the box, and the nice little greenness. It's like those are all the reasons that they justify their purchase and they go, oh yeah. But the thing they want is that ambient glow, that softness. They look at their wife for the first, look at the husband, look at the kids for the first time. Honey, come and look at what just happened. You don't remember this, you remember this room how like it's like how do we take that into the ad? You know what I mean? And so the more the more we create that as far as like outcomes, and the more we sell that, and the more we um attach guarantees, and the more we attach all of these like outcome-driven kind of promises to that level of like, this is where I want to get to, this is the end game, the more your marketing exists in not a um a kind of a commodity-based market, but a one-of-one. Because, like, how are you supposed to compare um that emotional state that I get to when I come home? I bring my kids into the room that I've just set this incredible ambient lighting up, and all the family are just like, can we just let's just hang out in here? Can we watch movies in here? I'm gonna bring my mattress in here this evening, I'm gonna sleep. This room has been trapped. Like, how do we take that? Now, how do you how are you supposed to compete with that? You know what I mean? Everyone else is out there selling potions and widgets and gizmos, and you're selling this transformation. And so I think this gives you that ability to really market into that, and it's been very, very helpful for um for the marketing that I've been doing. And I think for both of you guys and the products that you're selling, you're not selling the the widget or the pill or the potion, you're selling that, and the clearer we can attach the outcome to their current circumstance and see that gap being created, the easier your marketing becomes. Like it's world class, it's night and day. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Yeah, that gets me really excited because it's that's the sort of thinking that I'm really trying to fold into my ads. Um because initially my ads were very offer-focused, um, and then I kind of transitioned, and I still have offers, but I'm trying to transition more into lifestyle. Like this is one of my angles is about like these are the lights that finish your renovation. You know, your renovation's complete now because you have these lights. That's kind of the um like I guess that's the track that I'm heading down towards. It's like you buy these lights, yeah, cool. But you know, what does it do? It brings the greenery indoors, it makes things really warm. So yeah, that's really exciting because it affirms that I'm on the right track in terms of thinking.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

So I think just further to that, and this is for both of you as well. So um the outcome that you create, like I just said there, that wants to be the um the biggest, strongest, like uh clearest version of what they want. Because essentially, people will have the the end goal, right? And then they'll have like a milestone, right? That'll be like, for example, maybe they're like in the setup process of the lights. Like that might be the first thing they go, oh wow, I can see it coming together, right? Or harsh, for example, the first time they put the lip balm on. The milestone before that might be like they've got the package, it looks amazing. It's like, I'm excited. Do you understand? And then on the flip side, there's all of the negatives, there's all of the objections, there's all the fears they have that are the complete reverse of that, right? And so your marketing wants to do two things at the same time, it wants to amplify the hell out of this and then make um justification, protection, um, downplay, and minimize all of these things. And so, an exercise that both of you guys want to definitely do is like, okay, so what is the biggest end game that my customers want buying my product? Why, like as an emotional transformative type outcome, they want this, okay? And then, second to that, what else do they want? What would be a little bit of a lesser thing? Well, as an example, Joyce, they they they set it up and they start putting it in the room, and visually, when it's even still light outside, they go, Wow, you know what, this actually really compliments the room. It makes my home look more sophisticated, but then it gets dark and they turn it on, and that's the end state. Oh my goodness. So you get to create this journey for people where it's like the first win, I love it. The second win, oh my god, it gets better. But then we need to go the other way and be like, what are the biggest fears they have around the product? Well, they're gonna get it, it's gonna be a cheap box, it's gonna be a broken light, it's gonna be cracked glass, the plug's not gonna fit in the wall. What happens if I need a return to sender? It's not gonna work, they're not gonna communicate. Uh these are all the fears they have, and then you take that to the end state and we go, what's the biggest, biggest, biggest fear? I pay my money and I get nothing. Right? That's their biggest fear. And so we need to work backwards through your minimizing messaging, and this is where you might have your guarantees placed around using the language in those fears of the prospect or the prospective customer to minimize those or reduce them. So we want to amplify the maximizers and then reduce the minimizers. And this is where you might have any like um, for Joyce, perfect example, any form of like you know, digitized PDF guide or any form of like okay, a step-by-step process installation guide to help you uh overcome this, or a quick quiz to help you to understand exactly, I don't know, which plug system or whatever you can do to minimize those fears so they go, oh, they've already thought about it. Oh, they've already thought of the fact that I'm afraid of I don't know that it coming with broken glass or all those protection mechanisms that's gonna reinforce people seeing what you want. It's narrative control. What we're trying to do is we want them to see the thing that they need and then see less of this thing during that marketing experience. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 59:10

Yeah, yeah. That's very exciting. I can't wait to make changes to my website, Amon.

SPEAKER_02 59:17

Gradually, slowly, one by one. Don't go and hack. Don't go and hack it all immediately.

SPEAKER_03 59:23

Yes, and I would say something here is that what actually Sasha was kind of positioning here, you can literally see it with Bisu. So if you look at Bisu, the Imera Ad library, we have it. Like if you don't love it, keep it, we'll refund you anyway. That's one of our statics that's actually producing the highest outcome right now. And if if I if I if I was to give you guys another thing that I've seen Sasha actually implement with Bisu, is that offer with you know one wipe guarantee? That dream outcome was already positioned. That's when we saw that with additional, obviously, like the work of like Nera worked on the offer as well that changed the business direction or trajectory. But I would say those two things will refund you anyway, you're gonna you're gonna love it either way, and that one wipe guarantee, so dream outcome versus guarantee, so removing the fear and then giving them that dream outcome. So we've seen this perform super well.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

And so the reason that the so the reason, for example, one wipe guarantee works even better than like um 90 days love it or leave it guarantee. Because one sounds like everything else, right? And it's like generic, commoditized. People go, oh yeah, okay, well, I don't really know what that means. Every time I've had that before, people just argue with me via email and I don't even get my money back. Do you understand? Versus the alternative is like one wipe. So that means in one wipe, I'm gonna have all my makeup removed, and if I don't, I get to keep the cloth and get a refund. You're in a different category. Do you understand? Like it's it's novelty and it cuts through that marketing message, and people go, Oh, okay, wow, like I get the outcome that I want because they're not buying the cloth to have the cloth, they're buying the cloth to have the outcome the cloth gives, in the same way that you guys all sell the outcome your product achieves and not the product. And so the better and the more consistently you can move from product pushers to outcome sellers, the more product you'll sell as an extension. Like it is just definitive one-to-one, absolute. If you continue moving into this transformation-based selling, um you'll just print. You'll absolutely print, and your business will continue to get more and more and more profitable. But again, similar to what we were talking about with Joyce here at the start, and then also Harsh very similarly, this hinges upon the outcome being organized specifically for maybe one avatar, a very clear person, because it's very difficult to go, okay, what's the outcome for 30-year-olds and 40-year-olds, and 60-year-olds, and 20-year-olds? Uh, holy shit, they all want different things. Do you understand? And so the clarity on that kind of uh specific avatar and then the outcome that avatar, the world that avatar is living in, enables you to get very clear with this is how we're gonna construct this wildly strong outcome-driven guarantee. We're gonna create all these minimizers in terms of how we're gonna position things and we're gonna maximize it to make it even easier for them. And the other thing I think that one wipe guarantee did very well, people care a lot these days about speed. They want things quickly and they want the outcome fast. So when we say one wipe guarantee, um, it really amplifies in their mind the fact that this is a quick outcome, right? So, equally for you guys, if we can amplify more speed by way of like cracked lips, for example, if that's your biggest delta hush that people are feeling, I get cracked lips, how quickly can I wake up and feel the experience of supple, amazing, incredibly luscious lips? I don't even know if that language makes sense, but you get what I'm saying. Like, how can I have that happen in you know 14 hours versus three days, two days, whatever it might be, however long that takes? In the same way, Joyce, for you, the setup, the process, the the how long is it gonna take? Those are the fears that your people have when they're buying is how's this gonna fit? What's the assembly? Is it gonna come broken? Is it gonna be damaged? I only know about this. Is this a cheap variation? I don't really know if I can like that. That's what's going on in their mind. And so we need to combat that with messaging structures and overcomes so that they look more at the outcome they want and less at all of the fears they have when they're buying, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:21

And I'll give you like some input here because I'm very very familiar with the net short space that you're in, Joyce. So probably you can tackle upgrade your home. Those are things you can look at.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Team, I'd love to just get a couple of quick takeaways. What has been the most significant? What have you enjoyed about this conversation before we wrap up here uh this morning? Um Harsh, what about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Uh obviously the strategies like the the thing you said, like test in ABU, and after like three, four days, just put the winners into the C uh test in ABU, and after three, four days just put the winners into the CBU and just scale them up. That's that's I think I can really uh work on. Another thing that transformation angle right now I'm just doing like day one versus day fourteen. Uh but we can also do like day one versus day ten or maybe day eleven. We can obviously test that. And I think I think yeah, it's gonna be better than so so so.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

Real quick, there's a and this this this milestone transformation. There was a client and he had a um uh a business that had sold supplements, and supplements is the ultimate version of this because why do people buy supplements? Not because of the tub, the tablets, the taste, they buy it because of hope, right? The day that I take it today, and then am I gonna feel more energy? Oh, am I gonna feel more energy? That's what they want to feel. Do you understand? And so your product is like, okay, 14 days is way too long, right? In the same way with him, for example, he had a supplement product for dogs, and so it was like um after it was like 90 days, there was some outcome that would happen. And I and I was like, what else happened sooner? And he's like, Well, look, in 72 hours, um, when they do poops, the owners always talk about the fact that the it that it's it's insane. The dog, like it looks so healthy, the coat looks better. I'm like, we need that now. I can't wait 90 days to try and sell something. Oh, yep, just keep using the product there, Johnny, and in 90 days' time you should start to see some results. It's like, what is that gonna do? We need to see something now so the owner buys and they go, Oh my goodness, his fur is so shiny or his poop looks so much more, I don't know, solid, whatever the thing looks like. But it's like if that's the pain point, we need to shorten the cycle to increase the speed, and that will help you tremendously because who wants to use a product for 14 days and then be like, oh, oh, I missed a day. It looks like I'm gonna have to restart again. Oh well, who knows? Do you understand? And so we want to really compress that as much as possible. Joyce, how about yourself? What have you taken out of the session so far?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

Oh, the biggest thing that resonated was that CPO framework. So just really trying to focus on communicating that like thinking about the circumstance in which my um my avatar is in and really trying to afford that. To the messaging of the ad to the website. So yeah, there's a lot of room for me to move in there. So yeah, excited to make it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

So Hammond and I always say this, and Hammond, you might you might as well take this away because you always talk about this being the 10x multiple that comes out of these conversations. I'll let this be your part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:17

Yeah, I would say that this is actually our promise in the podcast. Every time someone joins in, we actually literally say, within like like this is my view, and it's if you implement everything that we recommend, your business should 10x within the next three months. If you implement everything. If you're not implementing, then obviously we can't really promise. But if you do everything, you do the things that we talked about, you work in your business every single day, you don't get distracted. We talked about that. If you do these things, your business will thrive. And we've seen many cases where we had a podcast with a person that was doing 30, 40k, and by December, Paul by the way, he actually got to 160k. So that level, like just within probably like 60 days or 30 days after this. And the goal was for him to actually go from that 10, 20k to that 100k level, and he got to 160k. So I would say you can do this. And by the way, another thing we have um to fail is like the owner, like the um Chris and Shelley came to the call and they had this business that they launched, implemented things, they got to 100k Australian within, I'll say probably 45 days. This is with a new launch. So we've seen many times people get insane results, or you guys should not be the exception, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

And I think you guys have proven it. The work you've done has been testament to obviously Hammond, and Hammond's exceptional with his consistency and how he shows up and how he um just continues to drive more and more and more value and continues to um compete to provide the latest edge as far as helping you guys to get the best results, and that's what we're obsessed with. And I know that you'll continue to see it in terms of how we continue to get better and better and better at the work we're doing, um, so that we can continue to guiding you to multiple millions of dollars per month, uh, because that's the goal. You know, and and and your business really starts to similar to what Haman mentioned earlier. It's like the level that you unlock as a business owner and an operator at above 100k a month changes disproportionately. Mainly because of the lifestyle impact, mainly because of the impact to your personal income and what it enables you to do for your business, but then also for yourself personally, right? So we're really pumped to get you up to that level so you can start to really experience all the great things that you put all this sacrifice, work, and energy into the business for. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

Appreciate both of you tremendously. Keep crushing it, and um, I look forward to seeing you next weekend, Joyce. Harsh, I don't think um I'll be seeing you there unless you make the long haul flight, but maybe the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:28

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:32

Thank you.