Reclaiming My Theology

...From White Supremacy: Paternalism w/ Carlos A. Rodríguez

June 25, 2020 Brandi Miller Season 1 Episode 3
Reclaiming My Theology
...From White Supremacy: Paternalism w/ Carlos A. Rodríguez
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode Brandi talks with Carlos A. Rodríguez about paternalism and how is manifests in our life, theology, and relationships.

Carlos is the founder and CEO of The Happy Givers, a non-profit serving and providing relief for the marginalized. Carlos is a pastor, speaker, father, friend and leader who provides insight from his own life and experience with paternalism and paternalistic culture. 

If you have questions please send them to reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com. 

If you like or benefit from what you hear, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you find your podcasts. You can also join along on patreon at patreon.com/brandinico to help sustain the work and life of the podcast. 


Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress.
@reclaimingmytheology

Reclaiming My Theology, Episode 3: Paternalism


Brandi: Hello, and welcome to another episode of reclaiming my theology, a podcast seeking to take our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. As always, I’m your host, Brandi Miller, and I just wanted to say a big thank you to those who have supported in word, reviews, and through Patreon. It means the world to me. You truly make this podcast possible, and it is a precious gift to get to do it together.


Once again, if you have questions, as I know many of us do, feel free to shoot them to reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com to potentially have them featured in our question-and-answer time, Make It Make Sense.


On this episode today, I’m joined by my friend, Carlos Rodriguez, founder and CEO of The Happy Givers Nonprofit, a nonprofit serving communities in need around the world. We spend our time talking about paternalism and the ways that power and control impact how we as people are taught to see ourselves and God. I recognize as we enter in that some of us come from highly paternalistic religious experiences, families, marriages, and work cultures. As such, as we talk about this freely, I imagine that it could be triggering to some of the ways you’ve experienced this in your own life. I offer this as both a heads up and as an invitation to be gentle with yourself, to honor what comes up in you, and to do what you need to pursue healing.


And with that, enjoy this episode and my interview with Carlos.



**


Brandi: Well, Carlos, I really do appreciate you being on today. It’s a great honor to have you as a brother and a friend and now as a —



Carlos: Come on, it’s my pleasure, it’s my pleasure.



Brandi: It’s such a delight. So, I know – I think probably some of our folks know who you are—or, really, um, I think that you’re a hilarious person because your face pops up in a lot of people’s feeds, but they may not know who you are, and so—



Carlos: It’s so random.



Brandi: It is so random. I see your stuff pop up everywhere.



[Brandi and Carlos laugh]



Carlos: I kinda – kinda look like Drake; like you say, I – in a weird way, I don’t know if it’s because, you know, English is my second language, so most of what I’m doing and the way I’m translating, I don’t know if the way I communicate in English – I don’t understand it, how it makes it seem more appealing, so… [Carlos laughs]— I don’t get it, I really don’t. But, it’s everywhere and it’s so random. Last week it was Ariana Grande and then Channing Tatum sharing some of my words. And then it’s like, the King family, you know, Bernice is sharing all my stuff—and then it’s, like, some random people from the past where it’s like, “Do I want them sharing my stuff? I don’t really know if I communicated it clearly enough.” So, I do live in this random in-between.



Brandi: [Brandi laughs] Yeah, it’s like when Jesus tells the demons not to speak because they’re like not a very good ambassador of who he is, I feel like you’re probably in that place a lot.



[Brandi and Carlos laugh]



Carlos: Thank you. I’m a demon speaker, yes, thank you for that, I appreciate that.



Brandi: Oh, yikes.



[Brandi and Carlos laugh]



Carlos: No, but it is – it really is – it’s really wild. And I guess – I guess it’s part of what I get to do, I don’t know.



Brandi: Yeah, and it helps you do the work that you do on the ground, which is really awesome.



Carlos: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. That’s – that’s the thing that matters the most ultimately.



Brandi: Yeah, so Carlos, then for those who don’t know who you are or what you’re about, what does it mean to be you?



Carlos: Oh, man. So, super long story short: born and raised in Puerto Rico, so I carry all the complications of being an American citizen who is also a second-class citizen, you know?



Brandi: Mmhmm.



Carlos: I have an American passport, but I live in an island where we can’t vote for the president. So I have to live with the consequences of Trump being the president without zero power of deciding whether he should be again or not, right? So – so that’s a whole conversation right there, ah - ah - about literally living in a colony of the United States and realizing that it’s never been a democracy. It – I mean, just between Puerto Rico and the electoral college, really, all the different American colonies and the electoral college have proved that we’re not really a democracy. So I live in the very real – the reality of that.


I’m also a super Christian-Jesus-whatever-you-wanna-label-that; like, I was – I got saved in a Billy Graham crusade; I’m already saying “I got saved”—that’s complicated enough—[Brandi and Carlos laugh]—and then in a Billy Graham crusade? And so I found quote unquote Jesus in a Billy Graham crusade in Puerto Rico, and then I almost lost Jesus because of Franklin Graham and his whole crusade, right?


So I live in this really weird in-between, but ultimately, right now, 2020, I am living in Puerto Rico, I have a very mixed beautiful family, and I lead a nonprofit called The Happy NPO, the Happy Nonprofit, and we do projects all around the world, but mainly focusing on Puerto Rico right now, reconstruction of homes for single moms and the elderly.



Brandi: That’s amazing. [Carlos laughs] And I know you work really, really hard to do what you do. And part of the reason, right, we’re talking about paternalism today, and one of the reasons I had you on is because of the work that you do. Because Puerto Rico as you – you – I don’t have to tell you – is the object of so much paternalistic charity and so much paternalistic Christianity, and I see you doing work that overrides or tries to establish a different way of doing—



Carlos: Sure.



Brandi: —charity and peace work in Puerto Rico.



Carlos: Sure.



Brandi: So, that’s part of the reason I’m really excited to have you on—



Carlos: Thank you.



Brandi: —because that is the reality that you come from.



Carlos: Thank you. And I’m still – in reality, I’m still trying to figure out, to be honest with you. Because, as you’re doing—and call it whatever—relief work, charity work, missionary whatever, teams, and trips, it’s so loaded, and it’s so complicated, it’s so convoluted. And at the very same time, it’s so simple: there’s a need; where are the resources to fulfill that need, and how do you use those resources properly so that there is no need moving forward?



Brandi: Yes.



Carlos: So that there is no need for – and – and I’m almost – I find myself turning white saviors into white allies, and I fail half of the time—[Brandi and Carlos laugh]—but the other half is really beautiful, to use a system—



Brandi: Yes.



Carlos: —that is really broken, and sometimes evil, literally—



Brandi: Yeah.



Carlos: —like, like a colonization-type mentality, and try to somehow allow for the need that is very real and present in front of me, that it’s demanding help, and yet this system that’s really not good and not healthy.



Brandi: Yeah.



Carlos: It’s a mess, girl, it really is a mess.



Brandi: Truly.



Carlos: And I have no answers, I just know that we need to walk the walk, and I – I – I found the pleasure in that wild in between.



Brandi: And that is so good. And such a mess. And I’m sure it’s just asinine on a lot of levels a lot of the time—



Carlos: [Carlos laughs] Asinine is the word, beginning with ass. That is the word.



[Brandi and Carlos laugh]



Brandi: Yes. Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of your stories and am just aware that the knowledge that you have and the spirituality that you have is fully embodied for you in a way that I don’t think it is for other folks who hold a value but don’t necessarily live it out in a full way.


And so, as we talk about paternalism, again, you’ve been doing this stuff for a minute and trying to figure it out, you’re a learner on the journey. So let’s just start with the general: when you think about paternalism, how would you describe that? What comes to mind for you?



Carlos: Well, you know, the actual word from the Latin, patre, which is padre, which is father, right? So, just – I mean, when you texted me, “Let’s talk about this,” I was like, “Agh!”


I wrote a book called Simply Sonship—[Brandi laughs]—which is not even a real word in English; it’s a Christianese word about seeing God as a father, and then seeing ourselves as fathers of others, and then seeing how do we relate to spiritual fathers and whatever. And I go back to my book, and I’m like “Ahhh, man.” Like…ahh!  [Brandi laughs] It’s just painful, and thank you that I wrote it, and I’m grateful for the doors that it opened, but, you know, what I was trying to communicate at the moment – so I was the lead pastor, I’m a Puerto Rican being a lead pastor of a mostly white church in Raleigh, North Carolina, which is the buckle of the Bible Belt, right? It’s like – it’s the metal part that stings the most.



[Brandi and Carlos laugh]



Brandi: Yeah.



Carlos: It’s the one that pretends that it’s not, but it’ll destroy you the hardest.



Brandi: Eugh.



Carlos: And I’m living in this world, and I’m learning all these things that I don’t know that I’m learning, and I’m playing this game, and I’m using that language. Brandi, I’m using that language so hard—family and father—and, again, I’m going to the root of the word, right. I’m using this language of, like, spiritual sons and spiritual fathers, basically to build my kingdom, basically to sell my book, basically to get more invites, hopefully the invite includes a first-class trip, hopefully that trip includes a green room where I feel really good and really special. And from that place, I can walk on the stage and tell everybody what I know that they don’t know, the revelation I’ve received that they haven’t received. I will even use language that makes me seem humble without actually being humiliated. So, I’ll give you enough of humanity that you think I’m a superior human, but not, like, I’m a broken human that really needs help, that really needs to not be on this stage—



Brandi: Yeah.



Carlos: —but, actually, needs people to come, and, like, you know, be with him, a human that needs therapy, that needs rest. Right, so paternalistic is this creation of this system where random people come into our lives, and they’re like, “I know better than you,” and this is wild, right, I’m – so, I’m trying to research, because we’re going to be here today, and the first image, “paternalistic” is, you know, those dads who take those kids to Disney World, and they put those leashes on that go, like, on the body of the kid?



Brandi: [gasps] Oohhh.



Carlos: That’s the freaking image.



Brandi: [Brandi laughs] It’s perfect!



Carlos: And I was like, “Romba shandaramama.” I mean, the Pentecostal in me was like, “That’s revelation right there.” I have nothing else to say. I am a father pretending that I trust my children and treating them like dogs. 



Brandi: Oh my gosh.



Carlos: And basically that’s it. So. I have to say that I played that game and I was good at it, unfortunately. I used the language of “family” to create business, and then when people didn’t work for the business, they weren’t family anymore.



Brandi: Yes, yes.



Carlos: I used the language of “father” to tell people what to do, who to marry, where to invest their money. I used the language of “father” and “family” to manipulate, to control, to abuse. And there’s so much shame in me for all that, and, freak, there’s still so much of that language in scripture that I have to wrestle with, right, this whole God the Father.



Brandi: Yeah.



Carlos: So, that’s a convoluted answer for you—[Carlos laughs]



Brandi: No, that’s perfect.



Carlos: —about paternalism. Oh man. Anyways.



Brandi: Oh that image of a child on a leash. It’s—



Carlos: Girl.



Brandi: Oh my gosh.



Carlos: I’m telling you, that’s it.



Brandi: That’s the Holy Spirit.



Carlos: It was the Spirit. That image! Google, forget Google—that was the Spirit putting that there. And – and it – as I saw the photo it literally shock – it really did shook me inside because I was like, [Carlos gasps] “Am I on somebody else’s leash?” That was my first question. Like, who’s holding on to me? And then, like, how many people have I tried to hold on to my leashes to try to get them to pretend like we’re having this awesome time, but really, I’m in control.



Brandi: Yeah, I just have that image of like a pastor on a pulpit holding like a hundred or a thousand leases and just holding them while saying, “Hey, you’re free.”



Carlos: Oh my —



Brandi: Like, we love to say freedom stuff, but we are holding these ideological, theological, functional leashes that, in our culture, are entirely tied to whiteness.



Carlos: One hundred percent.



Brandi: And, so, I’d love if you could talk a little bit about that, because we are trying to reclaim our theology from white supremacy, and I think dismantling white paternalism actually is a painful and ingrained in my journey—and I’m sure ingrained yours—portion of that, so I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit to that.



Carlos: I mean, for sure, it was ingrained in the culture of Puerto Rico. As a Puerto Rican, my hair is not thin enough, my skin is not white enough, my English is not perfect enough. I worked so – I’m ten years old and I’m working so hard to lose my accent, right. I’m working so hard to not sound like I sound and – and I –


I mean from – from then on I get into churchianity, charismania, Christianity in the west, which is Eurocentric, which, I mean, from the get-go, it makes Jesus white and light skinned and clear eyes and light eyes. I mean, and he’s trying – you know – they’re trying to see themselves so much in him, but, really more than that, trying to make people see that this look—this white guy  look—it’s so close to Jesus, it’s so close to his words and his power and whatever.


So, there’s no doubt that I grew up thinking that an old white man like Billy Graham—which, I got saved at a Billy Graham crusade—that is the pinnacle of theology. Without really verbalizing that, I would believe that. Those were the books that I needed to read: who’s the old white dude? What is he saying about theology? What is he saying about the book of revelations? What’s the white dude saying about revival and about the second coming? And it was like no other voice mattered. Other voices had opinions, but they carried the truth. And I lived that to such an extent that I moved to Toronto, Canada, joined this movement that was very white centered, but it – it’s so bizarre right?


Because in Pentecostal charismatic movements, there is a beauty that I see. And the beauty is, if the Spirit comes, who cares? Whoever has the Spirit, they’re in, right? So there’s – I would say there’s an element that would make for more inclusion, because what matters ultimately is the Spirit coming. It gets twisted, it gets manipulated, no doubt about it. But at the core of the thing—why in Latin America really, one of the only streams of Christianity really that’s growing in the south, right, and I’m talking now South America, Africa—it’s Charismatic Pentecostal Christianity. Because there’s a thing where the Spirit’s coming—well the Black kid that was a nobody, the Spirit’s on him, he can lead a revolution, he can lead a revival!


We saw that in America through William Seymour, in the early 1900s, the Azusa Street Revival. We’re talking about a guy who was half-blind, could not read or write, was literally rejected by racist white men who are still celebrated as great theologians from that time, and you have this great revival, right?


So, I grew up thinking the white old man. So much so that I get to Toronto, and they’re very big—let’s go back to paternalism—they’re very big on the whole padre, the whole father, God the Father. And, again, there are some beautiful aspects to it, but he always looks like a white old man.


I have never – still to this day, Brandi, I can’t see God unless I’m seeing a white old man. I’m trying so hard to destroy that fricking image from my mind, and if there’s any sense of, like, “Okay, let me take some time and what is God saying,” and here’s a white dude. 2020, fully aware of it, it’s still inside. And so I’m battling it as hard as I can.



Brandi: Yeah. I feel that too. And I think as – as you were talking, it reminded me of Linnaeus’s Great Chain of Being work, where it’s like, you have Black folks at the bottom close to animals, white folks closest to God, and then our imagery and our iconography says like, “Okay, if a white man is closest to God, and God is the father and gets to set the terms of obedience and gets to set the terms of piety and purity, then if white men are closest to that, then they inherently have the values that make it so that they can control and it be called holiness”—instead of manipulation and coercion and indoctrination like it really is.



Carlos: Yes. And it’s – so – I’ve been thinking about this—I’m married to a very white, British woman. [Brandi laughs] I mean, my wife is the definition of Anglo-Saxon. I mean, we’re talking – she, literally, she – her family is literally in a house from the 1600s, they have carried it through the whole family line. There’s no mix of anything; she’s as white as they come. And we have these conversations about personality, culture, how we were raised, and it’s so bizarre because there’s something about kinda the Eurocentric, both Christianity, culture, the way they do family, that really does well about pretending they’re in control, they don’t lose their cool, they can stuff down their emotions, and in a way, they even use that as, “This is how you’re godly, when you’re really in control, and you people, you’re wild and you overreact to your emotions, and you’re too emotional and you’re too this”—



Brandi: “Your songs are too loud…”



Carlos: Exactly! So, I grew up – so, why I was attracted to more Christian – more kind of Charismatic Pentecostal Christianity was there was room for a bit more expression. But, even still there, it was the white men who really – everybody could go crazy, but they’re on the stage. They really know where the Spirit is moving, and they really know who has the word, and they really can call out, as you’re saying, they really – because they’re closer to God, they’re the ones that know what prophetic word is right or wrong, and what message is godly or not, who has the spirit of Jezebel, who has the spirit of the Lord…



Brandi: Oh, gosh.



Carlos: I mean, I look back at all that, and it’s just, like, who the freak? And we gave permission, right? 



Brandi: Yeah.



Carlos: So, we are indoctrinated in such a way that we are, in masses, saying, “You’re right, you got it, we follow; we can’t even touch you because you’re so anointed.”


And one of those main guys, Dr. Rodney Howard-Browne, who had this big charismatic thing of laughter—and it was kind of a big deal in the early 90s—and now he’s, like, one of the main – so – one of the main guys – he was arrested recently for having church when literally everybody should have had no church. It was all over national news. This guy from South Africa who was always aggressive and, you know, off-putting. And I followed him. So, I read all his books. And now, the main photo of pastors praying for Donald Trump is his hand, and he’s only the one dude having church in Florida when corona was at its worst moment.



Brandi: Gosh.



Carlos: And, you know, now he’s arrested, so now he’s a martyr; now he’s even closer to God, because he’s paid this whole — right? So, those were the guys that I followed, and still to this day, and I have to be really honest, if another white guy comes up and he sounds about right, I’m like, “Ahhh, yes!”



Brandi: Yes.



Carlos: It validates it. And it’s a shame, and it’s something that I have to unlearn—we have to unlearn—so I’m trying really hard.



Brandi: Well, yeah, and I think what you’re saying in there is that paternalism at its—I’m not sure that there’s a best of paternalism—paternalism at its worst creates dependency. It creates charitable dependency; it creates theological dependency; it creates church dependency, where we cannot have a faith encounter with God without a leader with charisma or a charismatic leader, in your case, telling us what is or is not true or right or good. And I think that’s part of why people lose their faith, is because they’re manipulated or indoctrinated, and then when those charismatic figures fall, there’s nothing left of their faith, because you cut the leash and the people fall off a cliff, right? Like, it just feels like —



Carlos: You cut the leash, and you can’t get in to the rides; you cut the leash, and now you’re alone, and you’re nervous; you cut the leash, and you’re not getting any food; you cut the leash, and you’re separated from your family. I mean, the implications are humungous.



Brandi: Mm-hmm.



Carlos: And I’ve been – multiple times, I’ve fallen. I have fallen into that trap of, “It’s a tribal leader,” right, and “We’ve got a tribe.”


And we call them the Caciques and the Taíno people before Christopher Columbus destroyed them all, um, before the white man came and said, “This is ours, those beaches are ours, this land is ours, and we’re going to eliminate anyone who doesn’t look like us.”


And, you know, we – we create these tribal things, and, as you’re saying, the white guy who is closest to God, who has the revelation or the anointing—but the thing is, I fall for that, and I come out, and I’m, like, I feel so free out of that but I’m still attracted to it—again, I have be honest, I’m still attracted to it—but then, if I really start looking at what I used to listen to and put up with, I’m like, “It’s not even that great. It’s not even that charismatic. It’s not – the quality’s not even deep.” I mean, let’s just – like – it really – it feels – it really does feel like a, I don’t know, like a spell.



Brandi: Yes. Yes!



Carlos: And I and I – I’m trying hard to recognize it. Not just in them but also in me.



Brandi: Totally.



Carlos: Because even though I am a brown man, even though I am living in Puerto Rico and I do have elements of, you know? I am marginalized or oppressed—really, I’m still a man. I’m still a man in Christian leadership. I’m still a man in Christian leadership that shares stuff and people reshare and are like, “Yes, what Carlos said!”


So, I find myself having to identify the Trump in me, which, I kid you not, Brandi, I have, in the past, before Trump came through the political thing, I used to say to my wife—this is 15 years ago—“Oh, Trump only sleeps three or four hours, that’s all I need, and I want to be successful like him.”



Brandi: Ohhh, no! Aw, baby no!



Carlos: I’m having to admit that on your podcast, girl!



Brandi: That’s so real.



Carlos: Because it’s so real. Because that was the ultimate thing. And now I look at it, like, why would I ever in any shape or form want to be a leader like him or a pastor like him or a husband like him or a father like him? Not even close. So…



Brandi: Well, and that’s the wild part, because paternalism doesn’t just dehumanize the people that it’s leading—



Carlos: Sure.



Brandi: —the paternalistic people led, it – it dehumanizes the person who’s practicing paternalism because it requires you to be like God in such a way that rips your own humanity from you. It’s wild.



Carlos: Amazing point. Amazing. Because that was the thing—I fell for it so hard, so I’m trying to be as white as possible, dress as white as possible, sound as white as possible, lead a white church in Raleigh, North Carolina, as white as possible, and I’m having to listen to people that are like, “Why don’t we have the American flag onstage?”



Brandi: Oh, gosh.



Carlos: And I’m having to – instead of just straight up like, “No, because the gospel has no nationality like that, we can’t own like a nationalism whatever.” And I’m having to have these conversations in a very white voice, very white control, right, and I’m trying to be and – and – in a fricking horrible way, I’m being a puppet because I’m helping them say to themselves, “Well, you know, I can’t be that racist because my pastor’s a brown guy from Puerto Rico”—



Brandi: Mmmhmm.



Carlos: —“and he’s got a beard, and he looks different and he sounds different.” And I could get away with enough outside-of-the-box thinking for their boxes because I was different, so they would feel, “You know, I’m open to other thoughts”—but they would never really listen. They would be entertained by it, but they wouldn’t be discipled by it.


And that’s when I found myself, like, I’m playing this game, I’m playing this paternalistic game where I feel like I’m in control, I feel like – I felt like I had all these people on the leash like you visualized it, but really, it was backwards: all the leashes were on me. And – and I – I – I tried so hard to be close to God and be close to the white anointed men, and I found myself losing myself, about to lose my marriage, being a horrible father, and having to go through a legitimate season of therapy, of rest, of rediscovering who I was, about to lose my faith, and that’s when I found Jesus for sure.



Brandi: And that’s wild that it took unlearning paternalism in some way or having paternalism ripped out of you by God for you to go, “Oh I can know Jesus now.”



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: Because it seems we cannot know God if we are trying to play God, and it seems like that’s a huge part of what we see happening in religious spaces right now, is that we play God. I think – I’ve been thinking a lot about – so I have a lot of women of color in particular who listen to the podcast, and a lot of people have been saying, “Yeah, one of the major ways I experience white supremacy in all the things I do is in the implementation of purity culture.”


That – that one man from the stage gets to tell you that you need to give your virginity, or whatever social construction that is, to your father, by taking it to the altar, and like that every man in your life is in control over your life and of your body. And I’m like, oh man, paternalism in that way upholds and creates and reinforces rape culture in our churches—



Carlos: It really does. It really does.



Brandi: —and then it makes it so that even when #ChurchToo is happening, that we have these – these leaders of these big megachurches who were being called out but their structures were so set on that person as a singular leader with authority that they weren’t even held legally accountable for the ways that they had assaulted women in their communities.



Carlos: Horrific. And – and those same systems—because I experienced that myself personally—are created in such a way that we’re saying to people, “you have to be so, so pure and this is how you’re pure, these are the steps to purity, these are, you know, sexual purity and physical purity, whatever”—all these impossible, ridiculous standards, half of them not even found anywhere in scripture.


And then – but when the leader who is the one abusing and who is the one watching more porn than anybody else in the world and who is the one, like, literally sometimes emotionally manipulating people, sexually doing it, he gets so much grace in that same context. You can be restored six months—just take a break for six months, a paid leave for six months, for you to deal with your little things—because they’re little compared to what everyone else does—and then they get to come back.


Aand we use that language—because, again, I lived that myself—we get to use that language of restoration, and grace, and forgiveness, we use it to manipulate people into being oppressed again, to being controlled again, to being manipulated again. And, I mean, if I get really biblical with it, if you think about Jesus, especially Mark 14, he’s going up to Gethsemane, and it’s that image—I – I mean again, I was raised Catholic, so when I watch The Passion of the Christ, and at the beginning, it’s got that weird Satan baby, like, Satan – it’s so bizarre.



[Brandi and Carlos laugh]



Brandi: Satan baby!



Carlos: I look – I watch it again and I’m like what the freak just happened, Mel Gibson, like, you’re such a mess! I mean, it’s so disgusting. [Carlos laughs]


But that image of Jesus in Gethsemane – I mean, Jesus — so, for like – for like the Christian believer who really thinks and believes Jesus is the son of God, and then Jesus dares to use the words, “Let not my will be done but yours,” and it completely destroys theology of paternalism in the context of, “No, Jesus and the Father are one.” But Jesus is saying that he has a will that is different to the father, which would ruin anything like, “No, you know, you have to do what the father says to be perfect, and Jesus was perfect because he did exactly what God said.”


It’s like Jesus is saying that he has a will that is different to the father, he’s admitting it, not as a negative thing; he’s admitting, “At this moment in time, you’re saying this way and I’m feeling that way.” And the difference of wills did not separate him from the Father, did not make him sinful, bad, or evil. It – it expresses humanity in such a pure, beautiful way that we get to say, “I have a different will. I have a different will from these Christian leaders that have been trying to control me. Sometimes I have a different will from what God says in the Bible.”


And that’s just – paternalistic view would say, “Evil, bad, you can’t have a different will.” When I was a baby Christian, I would pray, “God take my will away, because I want to be controlled by you.” Eff that. Like, puppets, no doubt. People on a string? No thank you. It makes no sense. 



Brandi: And what I think is interesting about Jesus is that when Jesus says, “Come follow me,” being conformed into Jesus’s likeness, which is another primary scripture that’s used in paternalism—because we’re told to become like Jesus, which means become like our leader, who we’re supposed to see as like Jesus—is that Jesus doesn’t conform people out of their identity; he redeems the things in their identity that need healing, but then lets them be who they are. And that’s a totally different image than, “Become like a little Kenny Loggins Jesus holding a lamb,” which is, like, the portrait of Jesus that I most saw, growing up, even though I didn’t grow up in the church.



Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Well I – I grew up in – in the charismatic world, they would talk about Christians as “little Christ.” So we’re like all these duplications of Jesus, and we have to try to be – but then, at the same time, you’re telling me to be just like him, but the Jesus you’re showing me doesn’t look like him. So it’s like, it makes no sense. So I was constantly conflicted. I was constantly in this very paternalistic both being dragged by these spiritual fathers quote unquote and me trying to play that same game. I was constantly conflicted.


Because you’re telling me to be like Jesus, but the Jesus that you’re showing me does not look like the Jesus that I read about. So – and then, you’re telling me to be like Jesus, which, as you’re saying, is to be like you, because you’re the one closest to Jesus, but what the freak?


You’re just – you’re running a business. You’re treating every congregant as an employee, you make more money than 99% of the people in the church, and you spend 90% of the time running business meetings about how we can make more money so that – it was – it had nothing to do with Jesus in any shape or form, but again, and I fell for it, the language of family and the father and the son and the daughters, who of course are second class citizens, they’re not as special as the sons, because God has sons and it’s the firstborn—I mean all that, it’s so contaminated, so twisted, and it’s basically manipulation and control.


It’s as simple as that. Paternalism is manipulation and control. How can I, because I feel so insecure about who I am, can control you in such a way that I can duplicate you and get away with stuff?



Brandi: Yeah and what feels so—full disclosure—like, in my organization, right, we use some language like fam – we use language like family or fellowship, and I’m like, no this is my job, like, this is my – my work.



Carlos: [Carlos laughs] Good!



Brandi: And suddenly, if you do something in your job that violates what someone sees as their job, then you’re violating the family dynamic, like you’re saying, and it feels like that tool of family and manipulation all relies on a particular type of hierarchy that is not as common in communities of color as it is in Eurocentric white culture.



Carlos: That’s right, that’s right.



Brandi: And so if you don’t have hierarchy – because if you don’t have hierarchy, you can’t really have paternalism in the same way. You can, but not in the same way.



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: And so I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately for folks who I know who work for various Christian ministries, who – it’s just all enmeshed.



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: And so one of the first things I tell people who are struggling in those organizations is: I need you to extract the idea that this is your family. I need to you to extract the idea—



Carlos: That’s beautiful.



Brandi: —that this is your fellowship, and if they are paying you, this is your job. Because if you can’t extract those things, then you’re going to be victim to a bunch of gaslighting where people say “Why aren’t you being the right kind of family member? Why aren’t you in the fellowship? Do you not care about the mission of God, the will of God that we as an organization are putting together?”—



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: —while being fully void of the power dynamics that make all of that rhetoric and all of that persuasion indoctrination at its core.



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: And so we’re indoctrinating people theologically and we’re doing so culturally.



Carlos: Man.



Brandi: It is so much. It is so much.



Carlos: So let me ask you this: Why is it so appealing and attractive? Why do we long for it so hard?


Because – because again, I find myself – so, right now in Puerto Rico, we’re leading the nonprofit, we have our online store—we’re starting to move production here in Puerto Rico so I’m hiring people, we had like six single moms making masks, they’re making money when nobody else is making—I mean it’s so – it’s so beautiful and godly. They’re already coming to me, and I’m noticing that, right?


I just got so many texts yesterday, on Father’s Day: “Aww, you’re such a father to us” and I’m like, “Ahhh.” I – I – Like…“Ahhh.” [Brandi and Carlos laugh]


Like, I get it, it’s sweet, I wanna honor the cultural context where they’re saying that, and I also realize that maybe I’m playing that role more than I think I am, so they’re using that language but what – why I’m asking you is cause I do the same. I’m constantly out there like, “Where’s the father, where’s the father that I can hold on to?” And I can somehow, you know, feel safe in that context of quote unquote family. Why? Tell me why! Please!




[Brandi and Carlos laugh]



Brandi: Man, I don’t know. But I think – like I think in my own personal story, I didn’t grow up Christian, but insofar as I did, I came in – I came from a pretty challenging family background—



Carlos: Sure.



Brandi: —with a lot of different types of disfunction and inconsistency. And then I suddenly found myself in an evangelical Baptist church that was really into apologetics and certainty. And what I felt like what paternalism did for me was it gave me a solid foundation of certainty or, like, fences to live my life within that countered the dangers that I felt in other places.



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: But what felt hard about that is that it also taught me that my mind and my heart were not trustworthy in any way.



Carlos: That’s right.



Brandi: And so that, like, who I am inherently wasn’t trustworthy, but that image, that sense of “Who you are isn’t good, who you are isn’t trustworthy,” means that there’s always someone else who’s better to tell you that. And so if you grow up with that kind of thing, I think there’s always safety in paternalism, because it says, “Oh, there’s someone who can do this better than me, there’s someone who is more holy, more pure, more wise” and I think it’s used under the guise of, you know, “lose ourselves to gain the kingdom; lose the world, gain your soul”—



Carlos: Yeah, yeah, yeah: “Die to yourself.”



Brandi: —I think that’s what it becomes. Yeah. So “die to yourself” doesn’t become, “Be a sacrificial leader who lives deep enemy love.” It becomes, “Kill everything about you that is who you are in order to take on the image of the John or the John Mark or the other bible-character-named pastor that you have in your life.” And that, to me, feels exhausting, but it is less exhausting than having to relearn how to hear your own voice and to think your own thoughts and to bear the consequences of what happens if you don’t.



Carlos: Yes. Yes.



Brandi: Because paternalism always comes with consequences and I think it’s safer — like I have a friend right now who’s thinking about living with their partner. And she’s like, “I’m afraid of what my religious community will say to me if I choose to do this.”



Carlos: Yeah.



Brandi: And I’m like, “Oh, but you don’t actually – you don’t have an issue here; scripture doesn’t say literally anything about this.”



Carlos: Sure.



Brandi: But you have this question that you’re asking that you don’t even have the spiritual tools to ask or the functional tools to ask because you’re so afraid of the consequences of that.



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: And so to me it feels like attractive in that it feels safer than the consequences of not subscribing to paternalism.



Carlos: So good. It does feel safer. It really does. And it feels safer because I’ve been told my whole life I’m not safe, I’m not trustworthy, I’m not really that smart, I’m not really that spiritual, you know? And that same system told me I need – so I –


So I did this experiment while I was being a pastor in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I legitimately preached basically the same sermon twice. One had the approach of freedom, like legitimate freedom; like, “You do your thing, and you’ll be fine.” And the other had an approach, like, “When you don’t do what the Bible says, you won’t be fine.” And then I made, very Pentecostal Charismatic world, made altar calls at the end of both.


And we did this on purpose, like I talked to some people from my team, “I’m doing this on purpose, because people are so attracted to that.” The freedom one—the one that people would say, “Yeah that’s what I’m looking for in a leader, that’s what I’m looking for in a church”—no one is coming up, nobody’s reacting to it, there’s zero interaction with that. The other one, the stage got full, people are on their knees, “I’m giving my life to this.”


I was shocked and then I wasn’t. Because I knew what it was. And it’s true what you’re saying, there’s this safety, even in the language of discipleship, repentance, and you know, “Be my disciple, where I can create this world where, you know, you’re unsaved, you’re not really that wise, you’re not really that smart, you’re not really that spiritual, and I’m going to create this box — I’m going to tell you, ‘There’s no boxes, God doesn’t like boxes,’ but I’m going to make this box where I tell you that, and you stay in that box.”


 And – and, as you were saying, the consequence is the worst part. Because they’re real. So, we did ten years in North Carolina pastoring with people who, to this day, we love, legitimately love, we care for. But, in that system, we felt so controlled, so manipulated. It’s been two years—two and a half years now, living in Puerto Rico—I can’t even think of, like, being in those spaces again. I still can’t even process emotionally like why would I put myself though that.


And then I get worried, like, what about my kids, they’re not being raised in the church every Sunday. And I’m – I’m, like, yeah, but they got God, they got their hearts, they got good brains. I mean, so, I – I live constantly, and I’ve said it now multiple times, constantly battling what we’re talking about. So I’m not an expert on how to get out of it; I’m more of an expert on how to be in it and how to recognize it, hopefully to get out of it. 



Brandi: Well, and that’s sooo real. And I can tell I’m learning a lot of it, too. Because I fundraise for my ministry work, and I can tell that I think I’m bound to even what my ministry supporters want to say to me. Because I had an experience where one of my first church families, quote unquote, said that they would support me. And then when I started leading Bible studies for Black students, they said I was perverting the gospel.


And when I no longer aligned with the ideological realities of what it meant to be family, suddenly I was outcast and could no longer be supported nor family anymore, so I don’t talk to anyone from that community who I loved for years and years and year because – because we would rather exile people than include or restore them.


And I do think there are some theological spaces that we go, and I’d love to talk about that for just a minute, because I think there’s places in the text that we have to ignore and places that we have to elevate to come to this kind of unspoken agreement that this type of thing is ok. And for me, growing up in predominantly white spaces, we were never talking about John 8 and the ways that a paternalistic group of spiritual leaders come and drag a woman before Jesus, and Jesus says, “Who condemns you?”




Carlos: Yeah.



Brandi: And so Jesus gives this counterbalance to paternalism, which is hilarious, right, that you have this book — it seems like you wrote a counterbalance to your other book—



Carlos: I did, 100%. I was trying so hard to correct myself.



Brandi: But it does just feel, like, we have to read – we would rather read that story through a paternalistic – the – the story does not become, “Be like Jesus, who is merciful and gives the woman freedom.” The story becomes, “Don’t be the woman who is caught in the act of adultery” or like, “Don’t be the people who are controlling her.” But it’s never, “Be the Christ figure who then would counter the paternalism.”


Or we don’t look at the story – like a lot of the stories I think of are about women, because Jesus doesn’t do that. I think about the woman with the issue of blood, who – Jesus doesn’t say to her – he doesn’t condemn her in any way, he doesn’t talk about the crowd, he doesn’t – he doesn’t center the crowds who are trying to control what she does. He instead says, “What’s your story, tell me about who you are, what’s going on for you? And I wonder if – what it would look like if Jesus was trying to control her instead of free her and heal her.



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: And so I do think there’s a lot of ways that, for me specifically, the book of John has been manipulated thoroughly; that we ignore the first half of John, and we center the second half in the teaching portion, where we ignore the model of the teaching and instead say, “Abide in me as I abide in you; anyone who obeys my commandments abides in me.” And we take those, we inflate them through our paternalistic lenses, and then we say – what we say is, “Obey Jesus,” but what we mean, in parenthesis, is, “Obey white paternalistic structures that exist in our midst.”



Carlos: Yes. 100% that’s what we’re saying, with no shame, with full clarity, because, again, the language is: I have the anointing.


Even the whole concept of the stage, even how the stage is higher and the microphone—I mean, there is so much in the structure that says, “I’m elevated, I’m closer, I have the right stuff.”


But going back to what you’re saying in John 8, because I – so, in more conservative churches—which, there are not many that are still inviting me, there are still some spaces that I get to go, especially more in the Latino community, cause, you know, the Latino community has this weird in-between of being very, like, family and very conservative, maybe in more of the family context, and yet, you know, maybe in the social context more progressive, but anyways — so I get a bit – a bit more invitations in those places.


Talking about John 8, the churches always want to focus on, “Go and sin no more.” That’s the ultimate thing. But we’ve skipped saving the woman from an oppressive system that was about to murder her. Can we please — can we please like deal with that? Like literally—



Brandi: Yes.



Carlos: —being – using our platform, our influence, to bring on the liberation of people that are being oppressed to the element of death by religious systems.


Why are we trying so hard to get to the “go and sin no more” when we suck so hard at making sure she’s not killed by these paternalistic religious leaders? That, you know, in a very interesting context, in Leviticus 3, it says both the man and the woman should be stoned; from the get-go, they don’t even – they’re pretending they know the scriptures—eff that. They don’t know scriptures. Or they do know it, and they’re really trying to manipulate it for their own benefit.


So, it’s only the woman is going to get stoned, from the get-go, you’re already breaking the law. And then, you know, Jesus actually bends down, gets on her level, so it’s like, “We’re eye to eye, you’ve been put in the middle.” John 8 starts with—very Puerto Rican of John—everybody was there, like, they were allll there. The whole town – like, literally, not everybody was there, John. Chill out. But I get it, I’m a preacher, I get it. 


[Brandi and Carlos laugh]


Everybody was there. And it – it turns into – it moves into destroying the Billy Graham Rule, because Jesus – because it goes from everybody was there to Jesus was left alone with the woman. And he’s alone with this woman that could ruin his reputation about being the lamb of God who came to take the sin of the world, spotless lamb that has never sinned, people could have interpreted so many things about him staying alone with that woman. He stays alone with her, and he liberates her from, you know, this mad – this paternalistic madness that would have taken her life.


So because I preached a lot about the father, God the father, and I always struggle with the story of the prodigal son, because even in very Charismatic Pentecostal—and now kind of a bit more mainstream—we love that image of the father running towards us.


But in the prodigal son, the father only runs to the son when the son comes back. The father actually doesn’t – he doesn’t go to the foreign land to try to rescue his son from the mess that he’s making. He’s fully respecting, honoring the decision of the son, even in the foreign land, even in the brokenness. The leash is completely off. It’s the choice of the son to get back.


And in the coming back, of course the father runs and he hugs and he kisses and I love — well you’ve seen me, I love to actually present that, to run and hug people, that is a true view of who God is as a father, the liberating father. And we can go really far—he’s not going to be the controlling father, kind of checking on us. He stays back. And if we want to come home, we get to come home. And if we don’t, he still loves us just as much. That’s a fact.



Brandi: Well, and that’s the wild part about it to me, is that I think a lot of church spaces, and particularly white evangelical spaces, would say But God doesn’t want people to sin. Like, it’s about God taking your sin away, so we’re just trying to keep people from sinning so they don’t backslide. Like that was the word that was used in mine. I was like, “Give me a slip-n-slide, I’ve backslid so far compared to what they said at this point.” Like, it’s – 



Carlos: It’s bad, it’s bad.



Brandi: And it’s like, “Of course God doesn’t want people to sin.” So, it rests on the good intentions. 



Carlos: Yes!



Brandi: It says, like, “We want to protect, we want to father, we want to keep people from being harmed.” And it creates a system where there’s no accountability for the harm that paternalistic leaders cause, because their intentions were good, and they were just trying to preserve the gospel, or to write a doctrinal statement to keep people from sinning without realizing who that statement is marginalizing.


And I just am finding all of these ways that our misinterpretation of the scriptures prevents us from seeing paternalism. We – we can shit on paternalism all day long when we’re talking about how someone goes to a foreign country to do a missions trip and we’re like, “Ugh, that was just for you,” but we have no problem elevating doctrine over true discipleship.


I worked in a small town in Oregon for five years on a campus, and I watched twelve church plants in five years come to the campus and fail, because part of paternalism, right, says, “I know what you need, and you should be grateful that I gave you the thing that you didn’t know that you needed.”



Carlos: It’s horrible.



Brandi: And all these church plants would come in saying, “We’re coming to save these sinful students at this university.” When, in reality, the students didn’t want that kind of – they didn’t want – I mean, okay, one, who wants that kind of leadership? But they were coming not knowing what the students wanted or needed or the culture of it; they didn’t care about the culture of the campus, didn’t care about any of it other than saving souls or drawing people into their ministry—because somehow the pastor has to get paid, and what better place to go than a 24,000 person campus full of sinners to make you great stories.



Carlos: I just had that here! So we had earth – before corona, before covid-19 and everything with the pandemic, we had earthquakes from December 28 all the way to February. I’m talking like thousands of them, especially in the southwest of Puerto Rico, massive destruction and loss of life.


It was brutal in so many ways. We’re two years from Hurricane Maria, one of the worst hurricanes in the history of mankind, and not just the Hurricane Maria, but the hurricane of this administration’s horrible response to Hurricane Maria. Talk about a horrible father, talk about, I mean, a paternalistic leader like Trump, literally expecting us to believe a reality that only he can come up with, right, I mean the definition of a terrible paternalistic leader.


But, as the earthquakes are happening, long story short, somebody reaches out from, you know, from my past, says, “There’s this – there’s this nonprofit, and they’re doing really good work, it’s relief work, they really wanna come with you, I – have a ten minute conversation.”


I’m in the middle of earthquakes, I’m dealing with shaking in my own home, I have to take care for my family, we are a nonprofit relief organization, how do I help people, let’s have them over. They got money, let’s just have them over.


Aw man. Why did I do that?


They fly in, they have these solar lamps, they’ve got a story; we’re gathering people in the midst of—people are sleeping outside because they’re terrified of concrete, thousands of people are sleeping on the streets in their cars—they’re gathering all these people. “We’ve got these lamps that you need, and we got this story about this lamp which is Jesus’s light of the world, and we’re going to gather you and we’re going to pray for you.” And I’m in the middle of this, like, and literally, they’re asking me, “Carlos, ok, let’s just gather these people, but wait, we need to change our shirts, because we’ve got a few nonprofits, and we’ve got to make sure we represent all these nonprofits, so that we get more funding,” and then “Oh, let’s stop in this corner”—and this is where I drew the line—“Let’s stop in this corner, let’s get the drone out, and we’re gonna stand here, we’re going to raise our hands like we’re praying over Puerto Rico, we’re commanding the earthquakes to stop, the drone is going to fly around to capture that moment so that we could make more videos.”


And so, I believe in the open table. And so I took them out for a meal. And in that meal, I said, “I can’t do this. This is not how we work. This is not good news to me. This is good news to your ministry. This is good news to your wallets. But this is not good news to the people. This is not good news to me, as a local leader, it’s not good news to me.” So I – I – I had to cut with them and just, like, “I mean, I can’t control you, you do your thing, but it won’t be with me.”


And that’s just one of many, many stories. There are times when they do come with that mentality, and on the ground, we’re able to present a different experience, a different reality, there’s no doubt that that happens, and I don’t want to be the kind of person that completely says, “No! It’s bad! It’s evil!”


Because in the going—it’s happened to both of us—in the going, we’ve grown and we’ve learned, and in the tumbling and in the breaking, the light has come in. But there are times you’ve just got to draw the line. It’s just – there were times, in the tents, that it’s, “We’re going to go in, and we’re going to hold them, and we’re going to pray for them.” Because the assumption is – I’m like, these people are survivors of earthquakes and hurricanes and they’ve overcome, like, can you get some effing prayer for them?



Brandi: Yeah!



Carlos: Like, you really need the God that they know, the God of the oppressed that they’ve experienced. 



Brandi: Yes. Yes!



Carlos: And it shook me to the core, and I – I’m – I’m pickier now, is what I’m trying to say.



Brandi: Yeah.



Carlos: Because it’s shameful, it’s ungodly, it’s unbiblical, it doesn’t carry the humility of Jesus, and I’m hoping to break those patterns little by little as much as I can.



Brandi: Yeah, and we just saw that here—I’m sure you have plenty of feelings about this, but I think white paternalism for me exists heavily in the megachurch model that we have in the US where megachurches, because they have a large following, or really a big worship group is the primary way that I see this happening, are suddenly authoritative to tell communities what they need or where the spirit is moving…



Carlos: Horrible.



Brandi: So even as I saw Sean Feucht go to George Floyd’s memorial, and they erected a stage—and some people say he was invited, some people say he wasn’t—I’m like, I don’t care if he was invited, he shouldn’t be there—



Carlos: He shouldn’t be there.



Brandi: —and are playing music so loudly, doing altar calls, touching people in the midst of a pandemic and praying for people who are trying to mourn the death of their friend, of their father, of their community member, of their – You know, right, people talked about George Floyd like he was a pastor of the community, and we see this group of people saying, “No, the thing you need is not to mourn, it’s not to protest—it’s to worship.” And I’m like, “Yeah, whatever, say what you will about worship—it’s so tone-deaf.”



Carlos: So tone-deaf.



Brandi: Because paternalism always says, “I know what you need and you do not.”



Carlos: Yep.



Brandi: And I think it creates a context where it actually keeps us from – I think – I – I hear this kind of echo in what both you and I are saying — is that it keeps us from growing up.



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: Because we can’t actually grow into who we are if we’re just trying to grow into the likeness of the pastor who says they’re in the likeness of Jesus. And I think it develops really poor listening skills—because this is the really major thing I’m unlearning about paternalism, is paternalism taught me that there’s one right way to be, and it’s dictated by these people, and if other people don’t do that, I feel triggered, and when I feel triggered by that, I think that’s the Holy Spirit telling me that that person and what they’re doing is wrong—



Carlos: Oh man, oh man.



Brandi: —and so I don’t think I can even tell the difference between a trigger and the paternalism that exists inside of me—



Carlos: Whoa. Whoa.



Brandi: —and it makes it so that I cannot listen. I cannot listen because my triggers override my compassion and my empathy, and it doesn’t make any room for questions at all. And so I can tell that I need to unlearn a lot of paternalism that tells me that I am an authority to control other people because I’ve read the right group of white theological guys that have the right doctrinal statement. It’s so, so messed up. It’s so – it’s so broken in me, and I know it. And I’m still trying to unlearn it.



Carlos: Well, we’ve failed, I feel — hold on, I’m going to say — I have failed as a leader, using a book specifically talking about God the Father. So we’ve failed at presenting God the mother. We’ve failed completely showing the feminine side of God. How comfortable the Hebrew people are talking about the spirit in a feminine sense—I mean, in a white paternalistic culture, you can’t even — I mean, you’re literally — if you would ever say “God” and “she” together, you’re done. I mean literally done. And I found – I —



Brandi: Yeah, whiteness and patriarchy together.



Carlos: I mean, they are com – they are 100% linked to the context of, “You are a heretic, you don’t know theology, you’re evil, you’re bad”—I mean, so many things, and so we’ve failed to present God the Mother. Whether you’re comfortable with that language or not, that’s fine, I get it, but there is Scripture to support that.


And there would be a beautiful progression for the church to see God the mother in the context of, like, the many breasted one. So, one of the translations of “el Shaddai,” which is one of those – it goes on flags in very charismatic churches and “el Shaddai,” it’s the many breasted one, right? This context of comfort and proximity and inclusion independently of what you’ve said or done or who you are, the many breasted one will take you in. But we’ve – it has – because it’s been so much God the Father, God the Father, God the Father, and God the Father provides and protects, and that’s it, provides and protects. So you stay in this context, you will be provided for, just give us your 10% and you will be provided for, and let me show you how me giving my 10% quote unquote, I’ve been provided for and I’ll give you a sermon series about that, and you will be protected from all these evils. Black Lives Matter is evil; I mean I – it really is incredible how so many of my old acquaintances are still struggling to get to just saying Black lives matter.


Brandi: Oh my gosh, yeah.



Carlos: The ones that are progressing are saying, “Yeah, Black lives matter, but…” And then they go on this whole rant about the organization and what it means and where the money’s going.



Brandi: Yep.



Carlos: It really sh—



Brandi: Which is paternalism in and of itself!



[Brandi and Carlos laugh]



Carlos: One billion — and think about this: paternalism in and of itself to the point of, so, Trump is all these things, but we still support him. But Black Lives Matter is this one thing, but we can’t support it because of all of these other things. I mean, we’re – so he – whatever, that’s it.



Brandi: And it’s because it’s Black queer women. If – that’s why.



Carlos: That’s the rant.



Brandi: Because it’s Black queer women.



Carlos: It’s insanity. It’s controlling, manipulation, and we need to be liberated.


And I think there is an element of raising the female voice. Brandi, I still can’t believe the amount of people that go to churches where women can’t be pastors. I mean, just that, that’s a whole other conversation. Just that that would be so real, so prevalent, is it – that’s the biggest denomination in America, the Southern Baptist Convention — they – like, a woman can’t be a pastor? And they play all these little games to make women feel like, "Yes, they have a voice”—but really, ultimately, they don’t. And the amount of churches that I look on their website, and it’s just 100% male leadership, let alone—


So that’s on the human level. Let alone seeing God as a mother or being comfortable seeing God in the she context, it’s just—



Brandi: Yeah.



Carlos: —so stupid.



Brandi: Yeah. It’s absolutely bonkers.



Carlos: It is.



Brandi: So it – so with all of that, it seems like you and I are both like, “Well, paternalism is not the answer.” It doesn’t seem like it’s doing any kind of liberating specifically for folks of color, queer folks, women, anyone with a marginalized identity, seems like paternalism mostly upholds white male God in a way that ain’t doing nobody no favors except for white men, and maybe white women in some contexts, but that’s like a whole other conversation that we’ll tackle in the patriarchy portion of this—



Carlos: Sure. Sure. Hallelujah.



Brandi: —podcast in some time. So if that’s the case, what’s the other way? What’s the other story that we need to learn, what are the other practices, scriptures that we need to learn to unlearn paternalism in our midst?



Carlos: Just humanity. The embrace of humanity for the sake of just being humans. In the context of just humanity. Let’s take away the godliness part, the spirit part, even the soul part. Just the body. Just the human body. Why so hard? It really is so hard for people to have a conversation about race, about color. The statement “Black lives matter,” because no, no, no, no, no. The conversation needs to be higher than that. Spiritual, human race included, right?



Brandi: Oh my gosh, yeah.



Carlos: So, just embracing the language of humanity. And it really is a shame how we failed so hard at just knowing, understanding, studying, and communicating the humanity of Jesus. The body of Jesus. The fact that he decided to keep that body forever, that, you know, if you’re a Christian who believes in the resurrection and Jesus is somewhere in the sky, he’s in a human body forever. Like, there’s – you can touch it, there’s skin and bones and — whatever, we won’t go into the depths of that, but that God embraced humanity and we’re constantly coming against humanity, against color, against bones, against different structures, against different shapes; we’re constantly coming against that.


And – and so yeah – moving away from the paternalistic mentality of control, of the one guy telling you what to do, embracing humanity, in all its beautiful expressions and forms, and it’s really hard. Because coming from paternalistic view, there’s, “I’m really inclusive”—but there’s still always a line, there’s still – “I still always find that one person that maybe just not them, maybe just not that way, and I’m gonna love them, but maybe not in this context, or maybe not” – right?


So, awareness is key. Which is basically 90% of what we’ve done is become aware of paternalistic systems that we’ve been part of, quote unquote families that we’ve been part of, um, tendencies in our own hearts. So, awareness is key.


And then the intentional and, you know, going back to what you said at the beginning about me embodying, like actually living some of the stuff that I’ve been trying to preach. I can’t get away from it, because if I don’t get hands and feet and movement and time, I – I – I, like, I lose myself, right? Like, if the – if the following Jesus doesn’t include actual following, then I get depressed and angry and stupid and – and so, I – I’m – if I’m honest, there’s some selfish element. I’m doing this for me. I’m doing this because I need to walk the walk. Not because I’m superior in any shape or form; it’s because, in my brokenness, without the walking, there is no faith. I would lose my faith; I really would.


It makes no sense to just believe in this white old dude in the sky who’s basically a police officer—or a district attorney, more like it—and he’s always setting a case that’s coming against me, and I – I’m – and Jesus maybe is going to be my lawyer, every once in a while, against this white old dude that wants to bring me down.


Just eliminating all that from my mind in the walking, in the going, when I have to go to Victoria’s house, which is the witch doctor, who has become my local mom. Um, and, churches have always put her to the side. She – like, yesterday she calls me to celebrate Father’s Day, and also to give me a list of things that she needs me to buy for her, because she feels like I’m her son, so my son’s gotta get me some milk and some bread because I need some bread. And in the going is really when, because there’s not the paternalistic father figure telling me, “You shouldn’t go to that house because you’re going to get contaminated with her stuff; love her from a distance,” or whatever. Or, “The only thing you should be doing is preaching the gospel until she gets saved—and then you help her.”



Brandi: “And then.”



Carlos: “And then maybe you help her.” Um, so the going has really helped me disconnect from the leashes that have been pulling me back for so many years. And so I wouldn’t say doing stuff is salvation because that would be wrong, also, but in the going, you will discover the savior in a way that you wouldn’t unless you’re going. The liberating savior.



Brandi: Yes. Yeah. Jesus transforms his disciples along the way, not before they go. He says, “Come follow me,” not, “Doctrinally align and then come find me,” which I think is what we try to do.



Carlos: Yes. Yes.



Brandi: One of the stories that has been sticking out to me has been the story early in Mark when Jesus heals the man with leprosy, and the first thing he asks is, “What do you want me to do for you?” That even in Jesus’s first healing, there is not even a speck of paternalism. He doesn’t say, “You need healing. I see you; you need healing.” And that’s not the thing that’s considered love. The thing that Jesus does is say, “Hey, what do you want me to do for you?”



Carlos: So liberating.



Brandi: And the man, yes, he wants to be made well, but he gets to choose, he gets to have agency in that. And I think for some of us, we don’t actually know how to have agency to ask for what we want or what we need from God or from others. And I think this is particularly true for women or femmes, where that’s just the case, that we don’t know how to do that because we’ve been taught that we’re not allowed to or that it’s not holy to.



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: I’ve been thinking about the story of Peter and Cornelius, who are mutually transformed—



Carlos: Yes.



Brandi: Their liberation and their story and their connection to God and God’s truth is bound up in pure learning instead of hierarchical leadership, that Peter sees himself as being able to bring but fails at, brutally, in this very awkward situation—



Carlos: That’s right, that’s right.


[Carlos laughs]



Brandi: I’ve been thinking a lot about the trinity, like – where – like, evangelicals love to talk about the three-in-one, triune God, while having hierarchical leadership models. I don’t understand.



Carlos: It’s insane, it’s insane.



Brandi: I don’t understand. I do understand, but I don’t want to.



Carlos: Well, talking about the trinity, because I love that interaction where it’s constantly choosing each other above themselves as opposed to trying to control each other—there’s no competition to be number one, there’s actually more of a competition of who gets to serve who. Jesus is like, “The Father is greater than I.” And then the Spirit is like, “You know, I only come to remind you of what Jesus said.” And then Jesus is like, “Well I need to go because the Spirit — that’s what you need is really the Holy Spirit.”



Brandi: Yeah. Yeah.



Carlos: And there’s this constant play, it’s like a beautiful dance of love and game where it’s choosing each other, Carlos choosing Brandi, Brandi choosing her friend, the pastor choosing the congregation—actually, more than that, the pastor choosing the right thing, which is to stand with the Black community at this moment, as opposed to playing the game of saying enough things about racial reconciliation to try to keep the Black people in the church happy, you know? Like actually choosing to pay a price for the sake of somebody else, because the paternalistic model will always pretend to be a good father while being a manipulative jerk, and that’s just the game it plays. And—



Brandi: Absolutely.



Carlos: And – and if we can, as you’re saying, learn to see the stories in the gospels outside of that model, we’ll realize how liberating Jesus is, how liberating the gospel – that the New Testament is like a new contract, it’s a new way of doing things; it’s not the controlling, manipulative way, it’s the liberating way. And, I mean, we’ve got a long way to go, but at least we’re being aware and hopefully we’re making others aware so that they come out—



Brandi: And that’s the hope. 



Carlos: Yeah, that’s – that’s the hope. But – but I – but for those who are listening, I do get how painful, and you brought this up—the consequences are so real, because relationships – we’re talking money, salaries, friendships, business deals, we’re talking actual blood family members that would choose – would choose the paternalistic family created in that context over their own family, I’m talking — there are so many strings that have been attached.


I would like to say that I liberated myself from that world; it was more like I made so many mistakes, in their point of view, that they fired me, so they gave me the gift of freedom. [Carlos laughs] I wish, looking back, that I would have made the choice; the choice was made for me, in a way, and I’m so glad, right?


So, for those of you that are in those contexts, and you can listen to Brandi and I talking, and you are so aware of what we’re saying, and yet, those are your friends, your boyfriend, your cousins, your job, your salary: grace and peace and a lot of wisdom to you to learn how to walk out of that, because I – I – I also want to say, while try to show grace, you must walk out in order to be truly free. There is no freedom found in those places; that’s just the reality. Like the disciples after the cross, they had to leave Jerusalem in order to find Jesus on the road to Emmaus. And it will be possible that you won’t recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus. It happened to them; it happened to me; it will happen to you. But I promise you, he will reveal himself at the table, you will feast with him again, but you’ve got to walk away. So I’m – those—



Brandi: Absolutely. 



Carlos: Those weird tensions, I – that’s just a reality.



Brandi: And that’s a reality that, as you were saying before, we need a therapist and a spiritual director and a good friends to walk us out with—



Carlos: [Carlos laughs] Oh yes.



Brandi: —and to learn to practice non-judgment from ourselves and to recognize that we can – even holding the Bible as authoritative and hold our human selves together at the same time and have both tell us the truth—



Carlos: Yes, it’s possible.



Brandi: —and that’s not something I ever learned. And so yes, we can form to the likeness of Christ, but Christ didn’t make you to be, yeah, like the little clone replica that you talked about—



Carlos: The little Christs, yeah, no no no.



Brandi: —but rather fully embodied kingdom free version of ourselves.


So Carlos, thank you so much for being on, I appreciate it so much. It is a gift and it’s a light to be your friend, in – in all the ways that we get to interact. Where can people find you? Or is there anything you wanna let people know about or ways that they can support your work?



Carlos: Yeah, so Happy NPO, for nonprofit organization, that’s our nonprofit website, and then we have an online store, which, to be honest with you Brandi, so the Happy Givers—and I love that Andre is doing too, you know, that he sells shirts that, you know, “It doesn’t have to be this way” and we’ll have conversations about it, because really it’s a financial way to get out of paternalistic worlds. It’s like, I had to build a structure where I could make money for the work that I wanted to do that wasn’t tied to me sounding less like I was supporting Black Lives Matter or me sounding less like I was criticizing Trump. Like I can fully be myself and say what I need to say about what’s happening in the world and support who I want to support, because one of the main criticisms when I was at church was, “Why are you sharing books from that person? You need to be sharing books from me or from the pastor, from this, you know, family, quote unquote.” So starting the Happy Givers as an online store, which is now gloriously moving to Puerto Rico in its production—



Brandi: That’s so good.



Carlos: It is so good. It’s one of my dreams and now that it’s happening it’s so great—but it’s really, it was a way to liberate ourselves from those models that will give you a platform, will give you a good honorarium, but there are always the strings attached and a leash attached. So support us there, at thehappygivers.com.


And I can’t not say it, because you’re here, I have to say it. You truly are, I’m not trying to be cute, you really are my favorite speaker, I believe in you, I support you, I’m not trying be cute, I’m not trying to say something I wouldn’t say, I say it to everybody, I love what you’re doing, I’m so excited you have a podcast, more people need to hear your voice. You are a leader I want to follow, you’re a leader I need to learn from, and it really is my joy to know you and to support whatever it is that you’re doing. You got – I’m with you, girl.



Brandi: Thank you, Carlos. That means the world, and I’ve already seen you live that out in reality, and so—



Carlos: Yeah.



Brandi: —I have no problem believing you.



Carlos: Good, good.


[Carlos laughs]



Brandi: I really appreciate you and what you brought for us today in helping us reclaim our theology from paternalism.



Carlos: Awesome, thank you.


***


Brandi: Thanks again for joining us for another episode of Reclaiming My Theology. If you like what you hear, again, please rate and review and subscribe. It goes a long way to helping other folks find the podcast.


We also have a Patreon. Just $5 a month gets you extra content and helps make this podcast possible. You can find that at patreon.com/brandinico. Next week, we will have my friend Jazzy Johnson on, talking about perfectionism.


And my hope in all these conversations is, as usual, that as we reclaim our theology, we would be able to do just a little bit better together. See you next week.