TechTime with Nathan Mumm
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TechTime with Nathan Mumm
NEAT | TECH Episode 2: From Bottles to Bodies: NFC Technology is Changing How We Verify Everything | Whiskey and Tech Discussion
Pour yourself a glass of Eagle Rare and join us for a fascinating dive into the invisible technology that's changing the whiskey world forever.
Counterfeit whiskey has plagued collectors and enthusiasts for years – empty bottles refilled with cheap spirits, fake seals carefully applied, and unsuspecting buyers paying thousands for fraudulent products. Now, Buffalo Trace, Johnnie Walker, and other premium distillers are fighting back with tiny but powerful NFC chips embedded in their most valuable bottles.
We explore exactly how these authentication systems work, from the wires that run through bottle seals to detect opening, to the specialized apps that instantly verify legitimacy. Nathan demonstrates how his Buffalo Trace Antique Collection bottle connects to their proprietary app, confirming both authenticity and sealed status with a simple smartphone tap. While this technology adds just pennies to production costs, it provides invaluable peace of mind to collectors investing in bottles worth hundreds or thousands of dollars.
But the implications stretch far beyond your whiskey cabinet. From NFC-embedded fingernails to high-end sneaker authentication, this technology is transforming how we verify everything valuable in our lives. Our discussion ventures into thought-provoking territory as we debate whether implantable NFC chips might someday replace keys, IDs, and credit cards – and whether convenience will ultimately trump privacy concerns. Nathan even reveals how he's used specialized equipment to clone NFC signals, raising important security questions about our increasingly digital identities.
Whether you're a whiskey enthusiast concerned about authenticity or simply curious about how technology is reshaping our physical world, this episode offers a perfect blend of practical knowledge and forward-thinking conversation. Subscribe now and join us for our next exploration of where whiskey meets innovation. Neat whiskey, smart tech, no chaser.
Welcome to Neat Tech presented to you by Nathan Mumm and Mark Gregoire.
Marc Gregoire:starting now, Welcome to Neat Tech, where whiskey meets innovation. Pour yourself a glass and tune in to our newest radio segment, where we discuss whiskey and dive into cutting-edge technology topics. Each episode we'll explore the intersection of technology and our whiskey. Each pour has a story. Every bite of tech connects the way we experience the world. Sit back, sip neat and join us for a bold conversation about whiskey and the technology shaping our future. Neat whiskey, smart tech, no chaser. Now we're here with myself, mark and our buddy, nathan, and behind the board is odia's Yep. And today's pour is always the smooth Eagle. Rare, okay, 10 year Kentucky straight bourbon with just the right depth to match our tech topic.
Nathan Mumm:Hmm, NFC chips. Okay, near field communication chips, correct.
Marc Gregoire:We'll dive into how these tiny embedded tags are showing up in whiskey bottles, from Buffalo trace to Johnny Walker, as a way to verify authenticity and engage customers. And it does not stop at the bar. Nfc is making its way across the consumer market, even into something as unexpected as fingernails.
Nathan Mumm:That's right. Which, nathan?
Marc Gregoire:knows about. That was a Nathan nugget on a few episodes ago, in a splendid fashion with function and surprising new ways. Let's raise a glass and tap into the tech. Okay. So first of all, nathan, explain to our audience what NFC chips are. You told us what the acronym was, but tell us what they actually are.
Nathan Mumm:So the idea of this is it's a mini processor or mini computer that stores information, All right. So NFC chips have the ability to have records that then go on out and have information on what you would need to do for an ID, what you would need to do for an identification process, and it gives you the whole idea about the near field. It gives you about 8 to 10 feet of connectivity. Once you move outside of that area you can get yourself a little bit in trouble because it may not pick up. But the whole idea of this is originally used for security doors scanning in. You had like a little prox card that you would have and you would come up and you'd put it and say this is the idea of the person, this is the person logging in Still used for that today, but that was kind of. The idea is that it would give identity to somebody and information and as it has evolved there's more and more information it can store.
Marc Gregoire:Right. And then one of the new usage or later usages now, as we talked about in the intro, is distillers like Buffalo Trace and Johnny Walker embedding NF tags in their bottles to help with anti-canner fitting. Okay, Now.
Nathan Mumm:So I did not know that until we were doing a little prep work for this we're going to talk about how it works and does it actually help?
Marc Gregoire:So we have our Eagle Rare here, which does not have a chip in it because it's just your standard off-the-shelf store, the higher BTAC, which is the Buffalo Trace Antique Collection, which is the once-a-year release. There's an Eagle Rare 17-year Okay, that has the NFC chip. I don't have one of those, but I do have a George T Stagg.
Nathan Mumm:It has an NFC chip in there.
Marc Gregoire:That's part of the BTAC collection and that does so. Buffalo Trace actually has their own app. So you take your phone and you talked about they have to be near, so I actually had to take off my back cover off of it uh, because you had probably some, uh, rfid inhibitors for your credit cards probably.
Nathan Mumm:Okay, that makes sense. It wasn't seen it out.
Marc Gregoire:So I'm running the buffalo trace app and all you do is you come over it scans it in oh, and then we give you even a photo well, they haven't.
Marc Gregoire:They haven't done this feature they're. They want to put a photo, but the main thing that you look on the BTAC is it says this product is authenticated by the company and has never been opened. Okay, so now you supposedly know that it's never been opened and it's not a counterfeit bottle? Okay, and then it gives you a little bit about what George T Stagg is. A little commercial.
Marc Gregoire:It's a little commercial, all right, and so a lot of the bottles have those commercials. Johnny Walker has it in there and it has a lot of information. It's on the Johnny Walker Blue, I believe.
Nathan Mumm:Totally awesome tech, but if I'm at a bar and I'm ordering a drink that's how I normally order my drinks how am I going to know if? Do I take my NFC chip up there, or is this really just for bartenders? This isn't for consumers. Who's going to use this?
Marc Gregoire:Well, this is like. So, when I bought this bottle, first thing I did is I scanned it before I paid my money to see if it was authenticated, Okay, and to make sure it had not been opened, Okay. In a way, it's a lot for it, because a lot of people go back and used to take these bottles. Buy them off eBay empty bottles, fill them with cheap whiskey, re-cork them, re-put a little seal on the top which is really easy to do and sell them.
Marc Gregoire:So a lot of the auction houses for whiskey, a lot of it has been faked Really.
Nathan Mumm:So you get kind of a lower end version of the deal and you put it in there and then you sell it for okay, okay, I can see that making sense, but if you, had old school whiskey that's worth a lot of money, like a Pappy's or something like that from a long time ago they're not going to have the NFC chip in there, so this is for the newer stuff.
Marc Gregoire:This is the newer stuff coming out.
Nathan Mumm:What are you saying, Odie?
Ody:Wait so just to confirm, you can't fake this, or?
Marc Gregoire:it's harder to fake.
Nathan Mumm:It's going to be tough. It's going to be tough because there's going to be a chip in here.
Marc Gregoire:Yeah, so let me do this. So the chip is at the top, on the bottom, and there's actually little wires that go down through the seal. Okay, so when you, when you open the tab around it's going to break that it breaks those wires which tells the chip that it's been open.
Nathan Mumm:So it's probably just a very simple code of, like dev, whatever equals one, and then once you have it, then you're going to have your code that says equals zero and then all of a sudden, now it knows that it was open. It's been open, oh, okay, okay now.
Ody:Thank you for breaking that down into geek speak would you like the geek speak breaking down there? Okay, I mean I didn't know how to how that would register.
Nathan Mumm:but now I Now you know it's a zero and a one. I'm sure it's actually that simple because it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
Marc Gregoire:And then it also has like secret serial numbers in there that check backs to the database on the website. So even if you put a fake NFC and you try and program it. You can only program it for a particular serial number and they already know if open or not open Really.
Nathan Mumm:So they have a live server database that is going to then open, and now it'll say it's open. So now it's equals zero and never, ever again can it ever be there, correct?
Marc Gregoire:Huh, yeah, I did not know that they did that for whiskey yeah, there's a YouTube channel called Whiskey Tribe and they have a great. If you go, look at them up, they have a great episode that talks about this and he actually took a knife, slid it open and took the cover off, and they were able to still register it as not being open as long as you cut it just around that wire yeah, you can take it off. I figured yeah so it's not bulletproof, but they said you know the amount of energy it takes to get it just right yeah and then you have to put it back on and reseal it, so you can't take another seal and just stick it on.
Marc Gregoire:And they have always have a special label on top you have to use the same msc chip, then you would have to steal that. That cut yeah and that's very difficult to do so, always check your deal, okay, plus the nfc chip. So with those combinations it deters most people just like the club on a car an expert thief can get around that in two seconds, they just cut the steering wheel deter 90 95 of your people out there okay, all right, okay, wow, okay, well, let me okay.
Nathan Mumm:Well, we can talk more about nfcs. All right, let me ask you are we going to actually open it and see if it works? We are not okay. Okay, uh, I was. I was waiting for going to actually open it and see if it works. We are not Okay. Okay, I was waiting for you to actually open it. No, you want to sell it back to your? That one is not.
Marc Gregoire:I just actually got that yesterday.
Nathan Mumm:Is that from a friend?
Marc Gregoire:That's a 2024 bag. It was a friend up in Bellingham, okay, and he won it in a raffle and he gave it to me for the price that he paid. So I got it for MSRP, which is unheard of for this type of whiskey, that's good, so we'll save it. We might open a George C Stagg on a celebration for Tech Time. I don't have a problem with that at all, because whiskey is meant to be shared with loved ones.
Nathan Mumm:Okay, oh, that sounds very nice, if you do do that, mark.
Ody:Be sure to screen record your phone.
Marc Gregoire:I love that idea. Odie, You're welcome. Odie will be on top of that. The next question that we want to talk about.
Nathan Mumm:Did you like that other whiskey that you tasted today, or no?
Ody:No.
Nathan Mumm:Okay.
Ody:I think it was because that I had coffee before, because when I like breezed in.
Nathan Mumm:No, it had the coffee taste in the actual whiskey.
Ody:I don't know, it just was super peppery. To me it was yeah same here, all right.
Marc Gregoire:The next question that we have is do you think this tech adds value for the average whiskey drinker, or is it more for collectors or enthusiasts? Now that you guys know, Absolutely.
Nathan Mumm:I already kind of said this Because I'm at the bar, I don't really care. I order the drink and I want it from the certain bottle. I'm probably, as a consumer, not going to make any difference if it's NFC or not, but for a collector, absolutely Right. This is like your PSA ratings for collectible cards. This is like your authentication certificate for memorabilia that you get with a signature from some star. So this would be the way to say that this is an official came from us. No bootleggers did anything in between. So, yeah, I think this would probably think this is not expensive. So an NFC chip, to put this in here, the technology on the back end was probably some dev times and a lot of work to get it done, but the actual chips themselves, I mean, these are like pennies on the dollar to get these chips. So if you have them pre-programmed, this is like two cents that you're adding to the cost of this bottle.
Marc Gregoire:Yep, I'm in full agreement with you. I think regular consumers generally don't find or purchase these bottles. You don't find these on the shelf very often anyways, so this is more for collectors and enthusiasts.
Nathan Mumm:Now do they have these at standard areas like a Wines and More, if I went to one of those, which is not like high-end, but they do have some high-end stuff. They usually do these through a raffle, okay.
Marc Gregoire:And they would have the chips on them so you can check it. But those are pretty. Those type of distribution channels are usually very reliable and they don't usually have fake whiskey. Okay, it's when you have these auctions and other stuff that you do.
Marc Gregoire:It's liquor stores, odd liquor stores that you're not sure of, mom and pops, as long as they buy bottles from people and resell. Okay, now, outside of whiskey, let's move on from whiskey outside of whiskey. What are some of the more interesting and surprising uses? Msc, m, m, nfc, nfc in consumer products well, I mean, so people have these.
Nathan Mumm:Some people have these in clothing, right? Uh, you use them a lot in, um, if you go to a theme park, if you go to a theme to a theme park and you're going to be scanning in and doing stuff.
Ody:I didn't think about the clothing aspect. Now the whole store just makes sense to me.
Marc Gregoire:There's one particular clothing item that uses them quite frequently or has been increasing in frequency.
Nathan Mumm:It's shoes.
Marc Gregoire:Shoes, that makes sense, shoes especially high-end sneakers.
Nathan Mumm:Yeah, that makes sense, because if you're buying a nike pair for 400 bucks and you're going to keep it for a while, then you're going to probably want to make sure that that's legit, not the same factory in china that put it together and they have the knockoff I know this isn't your guys's realm, but have you guys ever gone to unique low?
Ody:I have not so the store doesn't have any sensors on anything, okay, and when you go and you buy, it's like a self-checkout, yeah, um, and then you just scan it and then you just walk right out and my sister and I couldn't figure out what it was that it just knows, because when people walk out with an item accidentally, the store beeps, okay. So that's pretty.
Nathan Mumm:I never thought about an nfc chip yeah, instead of the big, huge, remember those big white tags they used to have for clothing. Now you can put that in much smaller.
Marc Gregoire:Okay, Now Nathan, from a security perspective, is there privacy or data concerns when NFC enabled personal items like fingernails or clothing?
Nathan Mumm:Yeah, absolutely. I have a device that I got on a Kickstarter. We actually talked about it on the store. If I'm anywhere within the NFC, I can actually duplicate the NFC itself for however long I want to have it. So if I'm within 10 feet from you and you have an NFC chip that is there, I can actually read it, I can actually clone it, I can actually copy it and then I can just walk up to whatever that security chip works and immediately have that taken care of.
Marc Gregoire:I would love to use that after the show on this bottle, oh, okay.
Nathan Mumm:That would be very interesting Something not the app reading it.
Marc Gregoire:What does your device actually show?
Nathan Mumm:Oh, the next thing is I have to find it In my junk and stuff. But yes, I have a special device that I have done that with and I've cloned almost every nfc chip that that I've had. It's been able to clone it so that's really.
Marc Gregoire:The more of the danger is the cloning aspect. It's really something actually reading really, because, like people in the fingernails, as you talked about on the tech time show, they're using it to distribute information. So they want people to read it, yes, but they don't want people to actually necessarily clone their chip.
Nathan Mumm:Yeah, so that's why, in the future, what we're going to do with these NFC chips is we'll start putting chips on people's hands or on people's bodies, so all of a sudden, then, when someone dies in the sci-fi film, they cut off the guy's hand so that they have the NFC chip on it and they can take it.
Marc Gregoire:They cut off the guy's hand so that they have the NFC chip on it and they can take it. Wow, that's a perfect segue to my next question for you. Could NFCs in wearables or everyday accessories replace things like ID badges, keys or business cards?
Ody:Yeah, absolutely, I mean that is the future Is the question can they or will?
Nathan Mumm:they, they're already doing it Can they and will they? Yes, absolutely will. They're already doing that now.
Ody:What I don't think they will.
Nathan Mumm:Yeah, they will.
Ody:But will it become a mainstream thing?
Nathan Mumm:No, absolutely. Why wouldn't you put a chip on your body that has all the information you need to do? And then, if you go to the clothing store that you were just talking about and you walk out, now you don't have to get anything out, you just walk out, right but from an extremist standpoint people would fight against that. Why is that?
Ody:Because they're weird, okay, and they are against innovation. Do you know what?
Nathan Mumm:do you understand what I'm talking about? Are you starting to go like religious on us now? Yeah, well, okay, not me, I know.
Ody:But thinking about because, like everything that has come out technology wise, it's always been some sort of pushback from the religious right. Yeah Well, credit cards.
Nathan Mumm:you know they had information with magnetic strips and that was going to kill you, and and everybody said no. And now all those religious people and all the people are now having credit cards. So what?
Ody:it is. It's just adoption over time. Yeah, absolutely I don't know, I feel like a wearable tech would be on your body or in your body.
Nathan Mumm:Oh, I think both, I think in your body.
Ody:Absolutely On your body, like a wearable bracelet that you, just you know.
Marc Gregoire:Or under your skin and your hand Under your skin. See, I can't see that, oh, that'll happen, absolutely will happen?
Nathan Mumm:Well, we know it's happened already. I already know people that have done that Absolutely. But mainstream, oh yeah.
Ody:Why wouldn? 100 years from now? I don't see that happening. Oh yeah, absolutely In, like the next 10 years, but you need better security.
Marc Gregoire:Maybe not the next 10 years. No, you don't. They're not going to care about that. You don't want somebody like you going around and cloning them and then creating duplicates, so they'll probably have passive and active.
Nathan Mumm:So most of the NFCs are passive devices, so there's not actual electricity that's running the device. Device but they're going to come out with is ones that have algorithms that change every 10 seconds, just as you do with your standard authentication app, where it goes through and it changes numbers once you start having the battery life and the ability to have an active nsc cheat. Now you're going to have scrambled letters that change and you're going to have to have stuff that and that will be more secure. So it'll just continue to advance as technology.
Ody:I'm thinking of like It'll just continue to advance as technology goes. See, I'm thinking of like imagine 20, let's say random number 20 years from now, everybody's got this stuff in their skin. There's no privacy anymore, like at all.
Nathan Mumm:Is there any privacy now? Every single time you search on the internet, they know what they got.
Ody:Well, not me. But if I were just some random person out on the street and I were to die and I don't have my wallet on me, I don't have an ID, I've never been fingerprinted. Yeah, I'm pretty okay for a year or two.
Nathan Mumm:No, unless somebody, Did you ever go in and get your Washington state driver's license picture taken care of?
Ody:Yeah.
Nathan Mumm:Did you put your fingerprints on when you did that?
Ody:I don't remember, probably yeah, okay. So See, I'm just thinking of like SVU standpoint, when they would find like a Okay, let me just tell you, svu is a completely different subject.
Nathan Mumm:That's all fake. On technology. You cannot take a picture of a car and zoom in and then have the license plate come clean, and then you're just like, wow, that's what we got.
Ody:Look at our technology. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like a homeless person that winds up dead and that winds up dead.
Nathan Mumm:They'll have tracking of that Really, absolutely, yeah. Let's say, if you're a homeless person and you need help with government assistance for food or stuff like that, then all of a sudden you're going to need to have something so they can identify you as you travel, and the only way you're going to do it is not through ID. But here you go. Yeah, absolutely.
Ody:Okay, I see that now?
Nathan Mumm:I think that that will. I think you'll have some religious people that choose not to get it for a certain amount of time, and then I think they will cave it at a certain time it wouldn't just be religious, also people that Extremists.
Marc Gregoire:Extremists Well, not just extremists either A lot of people that don't like big government or don't like people sharing their data or expressing it, but you got to remember.
Nathan Mumm:technology advances and as technology advances and generations advance, 100 years from now it's going to be quite a bit different than what we are now.
Marc Gregoire:All right, well, as we wrap up here, Nathan, anything else for NFC as we finish our whiskey.
Nathan Mumm:No, I have at least like 10 or 15 NFC devices that I carry most of the time. I have ones to get in my job, at work. I get ones to get in my home. We have NFC tags to get into my house, so I mean, that is how you can get in and out of my house, I'll have to borrow that tool and clone that.
Nathan Mumm:Well, I've actually cloned them before and then bought a third-party device that was much cheaper than the actual chip, so that I could have a third party device and do it.
Marc Gregoire:That makes you feel secure in your home, doesn't it?
Nathan Mumm:No, but I got to get something that half blink cameras, and so I guess if you just kind of come up there, there you go, all right.
Marc Gregoire:What do you think of the whiskey?
Nathan Mumm:I think we've had this before. Absolutely Thumbs up. This is great whiskey.
Marc Gregoire:It is. It's a nice, standard, great introduction into anybody that wants to get into whiskey. This is a great one to kind of. This was my introduction whiskey. That's what you're talking about. Yeah, I was at Buffalo Trace Distillery with a business tour and tasted some of the whiskey and then I tasted this one and I was like, wow, that was terrific Is that how you became a lover of whiskey, yeah, that kind of opened it up.
Nathan Mumm:Wow. So that's like a generational beginning origin story of Mark.
Marc Gregoire:That's where I got into whiskey a little bit earlier, when we moved to different Portland and we did Burnside Bourbon Okay, and that kind of got me into things Does your multiverse Mark also like it too. He does. Okay, every version of Mark in the multiverse. Okay, there you go, perfect. Well, everybody, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate you watching or listening as we drink a little whiskey and talk a little tech. Neat whiskey, smart tech no chaser. Thank you again. See you guys later.
Nathan Mumm:That was Neat Tech. Now how about watching some of our bloopers. See you next time.
Marc Gregoire:Pour yourself a glass and tune into our nudist. I'm going to start over.
Nathan Mumm:Nudist I like our nudists.
Marc Gregoire:Take off that shirt, buddy.
Nathan Mumm:There you go.
Marc Gregoire:I did the same thing last time. That's what took me half the time as I messed up the intro.
Nathan Mumm:I think you did the nudist. I think the nudist is getting you.
