In this episode I chat with Shelley about her journey to becoming a leadership guru and we delve into some of the wonderful teachings from her book The Dynamic Leader.
Shelley Flett is an expert in leadership development and team performance. She has successfully operated her consulting practice since 2015 after more than 13 years working as a leader herself in various roles across customer service and operations. Shelley is passionate about maximising efficiency and building high performance team cultures in organisations of any size.
She has authored two books: The Direction Dilemma – why knowing what you want makes you a better leader; and, The Dynamic Leader – become the leader others are inspired to follow. What Shelley has experienced is that it doesn’t matter what industry or organisation you work in, the challenges faced by leaders are fundamentally the same.
Her values in business include: Growth, Delivering Results, Sharing Wisdom, Helping others, Fulfilling a purpose, and Having Fun.
Okay, folks, well, I'm here with Shelly Flett. Shelley is an expert in leadership, team development. And thanks for joining me on the podcast, Shelley. Thanks for having me, Tony, I'm really excited to be chatting with you today. Congratulations on the book, I'm gonna, I'm going to give the plug real early, so folks go ahead and buy that thing. So The Dynamic Leader, I really enjoyed it. I got a lot out of it. And, you know, I was so pleased that a lot of it matched my own understanding. So I went, I'm not that far off the track. But there were some really nice little innovations that you put in there. And so if you're cool with it, let's just talk about the book. And so, before we do, maybe we'll just talk about your journey to this point. You're obviously a consultant and a mentor and a trainer. How did you come to be in this role? It's really interesting. I never ever saw myself as being the person that would be coaching other people, but I started being the person who was coached. And so I think, I think when you get exposed to a coach and an environment, I guess this is probably similar for people who've had coaches in sport, is imagine trying to play a sport without a coach after you've already had one. And so I had a coach, and then I got another coach and another coach. And then I had some, I guess, moments of realization. There were a lot of light bulbs going off through all of the coaching. I had some great coaches. And yeah, I just got to the stage where I realized there was more to life than the corporate bubble was able to offer me. And I felt like I had gone I think I felt like I'd gone around the cycle a few too many times. I felt like you know, I felt like in my career in my corporate career that I was doing things that are already done before. And so it had lost a little bit of its Spark. And I thought, well, I could go to another corporate organization or I could do something else. But I kind of felt like it was limiting for what I thought I was capable of doing and offering the world and so probably more of a global kind of thinker and going, Well, how can I make a difference? And where can I make the most impactful differences, how I learned how I got to leadership? Because I got it really wrong. I got super wrong in the beginning, and it took a long time to get it right. And I thought, you know, if I can, if I can make a difference in the if I can make a difference to one leader and you know that one leader has a more pleasant journey or comes out the other end with more confidence or more understanding of their abilities, then then that's for me, is success. Yeah, so that's how I got to where I am now. Essentially. That's a, that's a great story. And I'll tell you why I really like it because it resonates. It's so aligned with my own story that I found I'm a fairly global thinkers such as yourself. And I found myself in a position where I was communicating and managing conflict very badly. And I had a couple of moments that sort of a couple of a-ha moments really tipped the scales knocked me off my thought process. And, and I realized that there was so much more to this understanding of this field. And I did want to then help others to sort of have those moments where, where you do find yourself going, there's more to this and I can grow and and then I've got something to offer. So yeah, I completely resonate with that. And one of the things that you say in the book I really resonated very strongly with is the idea that people become a leader. Put into leadership roles. But unlike all the others, unlike when they enter an organization, they given this wonderful induction period. And they're given coaching and mentoring and they're, you know, their hand is held as they wander through the position, and this is how we want you to do this. And then they become a team leader or a manager or whatever. And all that process suddenly stops. And you're on your own. You're supposed to just Intuit was supposed to be done. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not that much different to, you know, just letting a toddler look after themselves after them want to walk. (Yeah) Yeah, it's, it doesn't make any sense. But, you know, in saying that I do. I do have a great respect for the difficulty in doing that. You know, leaders are not there's not intakes of leaders in organizations constantly. So it becomes really To have something that's set up and works for everyone, and is still cost effective. So, you know, I say, it doesn't work the way that it is. But I don't know what the I mean, the alternative is that, you know, they every every organization since their leader to my dynamic leaders tutelage when I'm running it, and then I take care of that (they buy the book). Yeah, buy the book. That's essentially why the why the program is running and why the book is there is Don't you worry about trying to come up with your training, I've got the training that any new leader needs, I run my programs publicly, so they're with other leaders of other organizations. And it's really good because they can start to talk about the challenges that they're having and find that the challenges are not unique to an organization or an industry that unique to people. They're, they're all about people and so it's Really good just to have that conversation and also share the hesitations or fears or worries that you might have and know that there's other people out there who are feeling exactly the same thing. So it's quite good. Yeah, I really like that thinking. Did you have that sort of experience when you got into leadership at first where you were put into missions, we were almost set up to fail? Look, I don't think I was set up to fail. I think that the, this is what I this is what I think we've got to trust is that when, when someone trusts us to move into a leadership role, for the most part, they they've made the right decision. You know, I applied for a leadership position a couple of times, and I didn't get it. And I think it was because they didn't want to set me up for failure. They didn't want to put me in a position that would, you know, caused me to, that I wasn't ready for and so they saw that I was ready for it. I just didn't have the I didn't have the knowledge. I didn't have a toolkit. I didn't have any kind of guide that I could refer to, to find things out. It was very much a stumbling in the dark. Yeah. And I think that sometimes people are put in leadership positions because they have tremendous product knowledge or they, you know, they're great at what they do. And so they go, well, let's, let's put them in charge. But of course, leadership and mentoring and managing is nothing to do with that, really. And one of my favorite quotes ever was Henry Ford, who said, I don't need to know everything about car manufacturing, I just need to know how to hire the people who do and I really like that. You don't need to be an expert. You just need to be able to manage the people who are experts in their little fields of endeavor. So you know, regardless of the industry, you're in, your job becomes less of a product job and more of a people job. And that's where possibly a senior management look at potential managers and go ahhh ... I'm not sure if you can do that, because you've got great product knowledge, you've got a tremendous experience. But we really want somebody who's more experience with people. Yeah. One of the one of the concepts that I've been playing around with a little bit recently is leaders who build dependency over leaders who build capability. And I think that when we, when we step into a leadership role, we can automatically gravitate to building dependency. And part of that is ego driven self serving. If I if I'm needed, then I'm, I'm doing the right thing, or I've validated my position or that I feel more secure. But what we're doing is actually putting ourselves into a bit of a Dead end, what we need to be doing is building capability. So how you build capability is that's it's complex, it's not straightforward. Yeah, I think that's so true. And, you know, a lot of leaders want to be revered. Whereas, I think what's what's true is that and I had it in had this conversation with another of my guests. And we were talking about the fact that it's not as if, say, You're in charge of a team, and I'm senior management. And the team's doing really well. It's not as if I go, but what's Shelley doing, I'm assuming that the team is running really well because of their manager, even though you may not be pushing yourself to the fore and announcing yourself as this guru and really asking everybody to sort of throw plaudits your way, you know, senior management get it. You're Good manager because the team is functioning really well. Which is, which is the challenge that we have. Because if when you're an individual contributor, it is all about that kind of thing. And so you move from an individual contributor to a to a lea ... into a leadership position. It's that, like I call it the that first level of leadership is really the apprenticeship. It's where you, you need to be able to communicate with individual contributors and understand how the work is done and understand the effort that goes into it and understand the need to be seen to be busy, and to be seen to be delivering something other than just the, you know, inverted commas warm and fluffy conversations. But you've also then got a leadership level above you, who is looking at you for how are you building capability? How are you actually growing your team and how are they performing without you having to do too much. It's tough. It is tough but you know what's interesting is when you do build that capability, that capacity building, and you offer the members of the team some autonomy, then they appreciate you so much more, you'll ... here take some responsibility. And I know you're going to trip and you're going to fall at times. But know that I recognize it's part of the learning process part of a growth process, and you'll only get better at it. So I give you permission to try and I give you permission to fail. I also give you permission to succeed gloriously. But you have some autonomy over the way you're doing that and some capacity to run your own show as well under my leadership, and I think we misrepresent that I love what you're saying about that level one being an apprentice and and moving away from that individual focus. I've got my tasks to perform, to have a look at an overarching look at all of the individuals Tasks being performed as a group? Hmm. Yeah, it's a pretty like it's a it's a process. And I think you've got to you need to have people around you, I think about being what differentiates someone who succeeds versus someone who fails, I think is having a really good support network. So having people around you who can give you unbiased and your really neutral bit compassionate feedback and feedback that helps you to succeed and that we don't try to go it alone. Because I think the other thing we try to do it that that initial level of leadership is a bit of a lone wolf. We don't need to. Yeah, they're still part of they're a cog in the machine to aren't they? Absolutely. Yeah. And not everyone's trying to steal your job. No, that's so true. Then people do get in there and that'd be very protective of a position suddenly don't like Oh, absolutely. Because it's like, gosh, what happens? Like, what are you? What are you doing? What's the ulterior motive? Are you trying to steal my job? You're trying to get me fired? Are you ...? You know, it's the self talk that can come in. And I, I'm guilty of that myself is I'm highly competitive. And I've learned over the last couple of years to stop comparing myself to other people, and just compare myself to me. And so I've retained that competitive side by comparing myself to me, which, you know, fulfills that drive. But I don't compare to other people because I have no idea what what's going on for them, and it's never what I think it is. And I remember Yeah, I remember when I was in the corporate environment, I was competing against this, this woman who, you know, I saw her as a bit of a threat, she was outgoing and she was capable and you know, she would she'd get tapped on the shoulder for a lot of opportunities. And I really felt like I was competing against her. What's interesting is she moves into a space that has absolutely no ... no similarity to what I'm doing. And, and she's loving it and thriving. And so I kick myself about how many hours I spent focusing on something that didn't even exist. Like we weren't even we weren't even playing the same game, let alone competing for the same title. Like I'm so far off. Yeah, I think you're right and we don't know, we don't know what journey they're on. We don't know their own drivers. And you don't know they might be looking at you and thinking, you know, well, if only I was like them. We don't we don't ever know. And one of the one of the little sort of messages I like to give when I'm teaching is don't look at people's social media feed when they're, you know, they've got all the makeup on and they're in the nicest places here. Am I on Venice Beach or here am I in front of the Eiffel Tower? And I'm with the best looking girl here and I'm done up in looking old GQ. I've got my, you know, Ray Bans on and life is wonderful for me If only you knew my secrets. Forget it that guy probably goes home and is as insecure as any of us and struggling to make some money and life isn't as glorious as it looks on their social media feed. So you're right the only competition you have is with yourself and and how to be growth oriented personally in your own development. Yeah, absolutely. And you know that openness to be also a bit vulnerable because I think the impression that we have other people can stop us from opening up and and asking for help when we need it. Very much. It's almost as if once you become manager, you're supposed to know everything. Yeah, I call them superhuman, which don't exist. They're a little bit like Superman. It's just it's not real. Yeah, and even it's funny because even corporate giants have mentors? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, because a mentor is ... there's a difference between a mentor and a coach as a mentor is someone who's been there before, and they've done it. So CEOs will have other CEOs or ex CEOs that mentor them. And, you know, that's to help give them ideas around. This is something that I've tried before, maybe you want to try that or have you considered that or, you know, keep an eye on this, or whatever. Whereas a coach is someone who may not have ever done what you're doing before, but has the ability to ask you questions and tap into, you know, the blind spots that you have and help you to reach a different level of potential. And so, I think you need both. I have mentors and I have coaches. I really liked that idea. And the coach is quite often a person that goes in with the the formulae that help us to succeed. As well as you know, whether I've been there or not, I know that there are formulas that we can use for success. And you've got that wonderful, dynamic leader model that you use. Perhaps, perhaps if you run listeners through what, what that is about, because I know there's some there's some sort of a you, I think you call one dysfunctional leaders and and then you've got dynamic leaders. So is that like different levels of leadership? And ... Yeah, so it's, it's different focuses. So down there, down the bottom end, you're very much responsive and reactive and at the mercy of the things that are happening to you. And I think that we come in at a level that is quite reactive, we start leading, and we're just picking things up as they're being thrown at us. And we've just got to be careful that we don't do that for a long period of time. So fine to do that in the early stages where you're finding your feet, but really needing to move up a few rungs on the ladder, if you will, to start to look at Well, how do I become more proactive? How do I start to use the resources around me? How do I, how do I get out of the detail and start to look at things more big picture? Really question the Why. Why, why is the organization Why does the organization exist? Why does my team exist? Why does my role exist and be able to connect the dots because I think leaders really need to be able to provide a compelling narrative and bring people along on the journey. So your people need to know what is it that we're aiming to achieve? What is it they want it that we're moving towards? And so being able to connect the dots, I think, and the high level on the ladder is well, you're not going to be here for forever. What are some of the things that you can teach your people so that they can step into your role when, when the time comes? So succession planning and we don't do much of that. I mean, some people don't really well, others not so well at all. But yeah, being able to look at what's going to happen, who's moving into it? And then how can I start to build their capability and skill set so that when they move in, it's it's a seamless transition? Yeah, I love that. And it's so free of ego. And sometimes, so I had a conversation only on what day is today oh ... Tuesday night. And it was with my martial arts students. So I have a karate club. And it's all on Zoom. But we were doing a lot of the theory around what we're supposed to be doing, you know, why these techniques work? And, and one of the things I said to Was it's important for me that you understand the theory so that you can replace me that you don't need me and I, my role in this is to become redundant. (Yeah) so that my role is to lift you to a point where you know, I don't need that guy anymore. And if I get to that point I've done my job and it came as a result of some pretty poor internet connections where I'm trying to run a zoom call and my internet was kept telling me that I had really low connection and bandwidth was poor. And I had to say to the guys listen, if I drop out I know that you'll be able to run it without me because the next level down from me will just take over and go, Oh, well, he's gone. Let's continue on and if he was to drop out in the next level on would take over as well as they know. And so yeah, that's succession planning and capacity building again, is designed to make you redundant. But I think managers have feel like that redundancy means they're no longer in the organization whereas quite often it means you get pushed up another run, and you manage the manager who's managing the people. So that's how we actually like a, what are they called? A geyser. We sort of the water shoots that person up. It's not like we're spitting them out sideways onto the footpath quite often we're lifting that everybody up according to how the strength of the capacities of the people are built under them. Yeah, I would say that up is not always the way that you want to go either and definitely not too quickly. So some of the young leaders that I've that I've coached, you know, my my advice is probably more mentoring than coaching is my advice is don't go to Don't, don't go too high too quickly. Because you you, you end up having this very small platform of which you can operate. And so, at the level that I talked about the entry level of leadership, if you can spend as much time as you can, just going from role to role to role at the same level, and just learning just refining your abilities, I think this is where the 10,000 hours, you know, you when you do 10,000 hours, you can kind of call yourself an expert or whatever it is that that concept, you know, talks about is the latest need to be able to get as much exposure to the raw, real leadership as they possibly can for as long as they can. And, and I think so it builds your resilience, it builds your skill set, it really challenges how you think, you know, if you start to you've got a team that you've because very different being promoted within a team, to taking over a team that you have never worked with his peers. And so I think you need to do that. At some point you need to to actually make that sideways transition and work and lead a team and build them up from from nothing from not having any exposure to them. Yeah, I think that's beautifully put. The the thing I really like it there is it, you build your own capacity by time in position, and the breadth of your knowledge is become so great that what happens then is your problem solving becomes better. Your ability to handle little issues among the team as they arise becomes better because you did spend time at that first management rung sussing out different departments working out different ways of operating. And so you learn to answer new questions and new problems as they arise rather than relying on that one skill because that one skill got you to that position. So within that model is them most designed as a coaching tool to have people recognize where they sit in terms of their own leadership. Yeah, look, it's purely around awareness building. So we don't spend too much time on that. It's just looking at, you know, where are you, where do you resonate? And then also, you know, some people will say that a lot of leaders will say, Well, I'm operating at one level for most times. And then what I find is every couple of months, I fall down here. And so that's just about bringing awareness to what are the triggers? What are the conditions and what can you do to take control of that and reduce the likelihood of, of dipping? So yeah, it's really just around awareness. I think awareness is so important. I often make the comment that if I had a crop duster, I'd like to fly over over the population and just sort of drop a dust on the community that allows people to have greatest self awareness and because I think that's one of the skills that people really lack is just insight. And so as a manager having insight because, like you, and I read a couple of your stories and I was like, Oh, hello, that that rings a bell. I've worked under some pretty good managers. I've worked under some great managers. And I've worked under some managers that were quite woeful. And the contrast becomes one of, I think, a complete misunderstanding of what they were supposed to do, what was management supposed to be about. They quite often get into position because they're a great technician. But then when I get there, they can't manage the people, but they can still do the paperwork really nicely and upper management can look and go, you know, I don't know what the problem is here because he's got all these reports on in on time and seems to be able to f manage the department budget, but we're getting all these complaints from staff. Well, you know, there are extra facets to being a manager. Hmm, I think the thing with awareness is that you can't increase your self awareness on your own. (Yeah.) And you need and you need a safe space to be open to building that awareness. So it's a bit of a delicate act, particularly when a lot of us were really terrible at communicating intention. I was running a workshop last night with a group of leaders and we spoke about Australians and our ability to drop hints incredibly well but not get to the point or when we get to the point we get there way too quickly and way too directly. So we have this, you know, a little bit of either you're you're not tact, you lack tact, or, you know, your approach is terrible Or you just there's way too much ambiguity and I'm actually not really sure what, what you want. And so we need to be a little bit better at delivering messages, I think, because it's hard. And I spend a lot of time I've recently developed a feedback model, which might be my third book actually ... might be the source of the third book that really looks at how we deliver feedback and the elements that we often miss in their feedback is often hidden or laced full of assumptions and mind readds and how we think someone was feeling when they delivered it and how we think that made someone else feel but we don't actually know we just saw our facial expression, which could have been them being angry. It could have been that they've gotten upset tummy, who knows but let's kind of work what we've got and it's just a mess. It is a mess and, you know, I guess that speaks to the human communication across the board doesn't it that we can misinterpret I know in the early days of body language training, and they were talking about, you know, if somebody if I fold my arms because there's nothing else to do with them, you know, we don't hang them by our sides as if they're just like little strings of spaghetti just dangling there. They're not sleeves, they're arms. And I don't want to drop them on the table because I don't want to shove the camera around. And I don't have arms on my chair. So what am I supposed to do with my arms? So, it's just far more comfortable just to fold them across. Now. In the old days, of course, they'd say this guy's putting up barriers and things like that. Fortunately, we've become a lot more sophisticated in our understanding of body language. But you know, the sophistication around the verbal quality, the words we choose, is is even more, I think There are as many dimensions at least as body language within the way we communicate verbally. And of course, there's tone of voice. And so many ways that we can misunderstand that according to, because we're functioning under this model that says, I have to have a thought, I have to decode that thought into a communication into a series of selected words from a dictionary that I know half of. And then I have to send it to you accompanied by a series of body language and tonal qualities that are designed to get you to ... to decode that message. Using the dictionary you're operating by and your understanding of my tone and body language and come out with the same message. Gee, it's hard Yeah, I'd say next to impossible there's always there's always a bit of a There's always meaning making that goes on. Yeah, it's, it's just and so one of the one of the components that I talked about in the feedback model that I use is that it's got to be clean, it just has to be clean. So how you how you portray and communicate. what it is you're giving feedback on is around behavior. And it's only what you have observed is going to be observable. And it's got to be objective, and it's got to be specific. So no point in me giving you feedback that you know, you really look angry sometimes some of what he's supposed to do with that. Thanks very much Botox is it is? Is that what you're suggesting? But possibly, possibly, but you know, what, if you were to go out and get Botox, and you completely miss the point? Yeah, exactly right. So that if the point gets lost to that degree, then the communications been really bad, hasn't it? 100% and so, yeah, look, I think that's one of the areas that I'm really working on leaders with a lot now is how do you how do you go out and communicate with people in a way that resonates with them and that you're, you're able to listen, you know that the conversation is not about me, it's about you, the person that I'm talking to and I think leaders could do with a reminder every now and then that they are operating in service of someone or someone something else, and that it's not about you at all. Yeah, I think that's so important. And I noticed in your book, you talk about the difference between using the word "I" "we" and "you" and and just those three words thrown into different contexts or communication apart? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I talked about the so in a one on one conversation we that you're having with Someone in your team, and particularly a conversation where you're wanting them to take responsibility and commit to something the worst you can say is, what are we going to do? Terribly ambiguous, isn't it? Super ... because I'm like, all right, well, I'll leave it with you. You let me know what you're ... Yeah, they do nothing. And then you come back to them and go well, so what? What have we achieved as a repair last conversation? And they go, What are you talking about? Have you done any transactional analysis? Have you ever looked at at the branch of psychology called "TA" transactional analysis, and it's a fascinating study in it kind of goes down the dynamic you're talking about. If you're going to write a book, I would recommend it because they talk about the the communication sometimes between the adult the the parent, the adult And the child within the, within the two of us, those three dynamics that exist in between us, and which one I'm using to communicate to you and which one you're hearing with and responding with. And sometimes if they're parallel, it's okay. But if they become crossed, it's less, okay. And then if there's an ulterior motive to it, I say something and you go That's not really what you mean. Then there's a real there's a real problem in that. And the simplest example I've got is, if I come to you, and I say, oh, Shelly, what time was that meeting scheduled for this afternoon? If you so that's just an adult to adult question. Can you tell me the time for the meeting? Now, if you respond as a parent, dealing with a child by saying something like, "it's okay, all look after You, I'll come and tap you on the shoulder. When it's time to go. I might find myself giing you know what I really just wanted you to tell me the time of the meeting. I didn't need you to baby me. So if you just said, "Oh, it's at two o'clock", then good. There is a parallel communication. I ask as an adult you respond as an adult. But when you respond as a parent talking to a child it's not what I was wanting. But if I come to you and say, Shelley, I can't work this out this, this tech is really confusing me. And you were to say, "there's a manual in your cupboard". I've asked you as a child asking the parent for help. Can I have your help, please? And you responded as an adult? This is where you'll find the answer. And it becomes very cold and sort of unhelpful. So this cross communication that they talked about in transactional analysis is actually quite fascinating. And the book "I'm okay, you're okay" discusses that at some length, but transactional analysis is is obviously I think, part of where you're going with it. I look forward to the third book, by the way, I'll be obviously I'll be getting that one next. I'm really excited by it all the good. Sounds great, because you're quite right that people don't know how to give feedback. If I'm upset with you, for some reason, I've got an again in transactional analysis, I can talk to you like a parent. You've been naughty. I can talk to you as a child and say it hurts my feelings. And I can talk to you as an adult, which is more along the lines of what you're describing, I noticed that this is going on. These are the likely consequences of that. And this is what I'd prefer. And so it leads more into that basic assertion that all adults really should understand and be able to carry out. Yeah, look, the challenge with it is that it's harder to do that. So in the workshop I ran last night, we were actually role playing right now. Give me feedback and And it was just terrible. It was so unclean. And, you know, you'd go, Okay, try again. And you know, we get probably two or three words in just go. I just really don't know. I just really don't know how to do this. And so we've got a lot of work through and these are people who, they're teachers themselves. So you know if it's not it's fairly easy in the concept is fairly easy but the application is, it's, it's tough and so yeah, but I'm pretty, pretty excited by it. I think it's wonderful and I think you'll have most most organizations asking you about it in one way or another. You know, I think once that's released, a lot of organizations are going to go Yes, that's, that's what we're not good at. And I find the same thing that it's okay in theory, but when I stand in front of you, and I actually have to call upon those words that I want to use to get across what I want to say. But also because it follows to type it I would probably be better at it because then we don't have that. I don't have to look you in the eye, I can deal with my sweaty palms. I don't have to find that controlled measure of assertiveness and deliver that to you and I don't have to be fearful of your instant reprisal or that look of hurt in your eyes. You know, that's people really just hate conflict at the end of the day, which is why we do it so badly. They'll either avoided completely or they'll go on the attack to put an end to it. And so there's middle ground where where we feel like we're in quicksand. Mm hmm. Yeah, I look, I think. So the way that I teach people to give feedback cannot be taken personally, if it's done. So you can't you can't any Can't read anything more into it once it's framed, right? So you don't have to worry about what the response will be because you just have to worry about how you're delivering it. And so if you're delivering it right, you know, with current clean contextual and with curiosity, there's sort of forces that I use that there's no, they can't come back with anything because you're giving them really objective, observable data, that they can't argue with it because this is where the problem is that we can We've read between the lines and we do you go, what's the ulterior motive there? Or what do they mean? Or they're just saying that because they think they're so great, or what you know, whatever else it is, when there's still those assumptions and the mind, the mind reads there. It's really easy to get confused by that. The other thing is, before we start giving feedback, we really need to go in and seek it. Yeah, be a part of that loop. Yeah. So and yeah, this is another conversation that I've had recently is a leader who said, I'm not ready to go and ask my team to give me feedback. And, and I said, Well, that's because you're not being specific enough. So I am not going to go out to the world and say, Hey, I just want you to give me some feedback on me. And it kind of opens up who I am as person to be at the mercy of what anyone thinks. And so when we go out and we seek feedback, we need to be specific around what what kind of feedback do we actually want and for what purpose? So I want your feedback because I want to become an internationally recognized speaker by 2026 - True Story, that one - and I want to know how I speak and so I would love your feedback on my verbal communication and by body language that comes with that. Yeah. Transcribed by https://otter.ai