'Addict' by Milton Schorr

Milton Schorr is on The Podcast to chat about his book 'Addict' where he chronicles his life journey and how he has come full circle through addiction and recovery. 

About the book: 

‘I wanted to be who I felt I was. Broken. A wreck. Unloveable.’

There’s a moment where life happens. It’s the moment just before making a good decision, or a bad one. For Milton Schorr, just such a moment took place at the age of seventeen, when he found himself squatting on his haunches in a Cape Town flat with a heroin needle in his arm.

A friend sat with him, his thumb on the plunger, and a decision was to be made. Let the heroin slip inside, and take the road the drug offered, or turn away, and find a new life not defined by the endless quest for oblivion.

For Milton, the path was already set, as it had been at his first taste of shoplifting, porn, cigarettes, alcohol, marijuana, Mandrax, LSD, Ecstasy and crack. In this memoir he details the life that led him to addiction, the wild and dark years of his drug use, his struggles to return to normality, and the reckoning with the self that ultimately led to his recovery.

Addict  is a courageously honest account of Milton's life in active addiction and recovery. Today, two decades sober, he relates the pivotal points in his journey toward death, and back to life. This book is essential reading for anyone touched by addiction. 

SOURCE: Penguin Random House Struik 

Nongcebo McKenzie: The Podcast 
Contact: info@nvmckenzie.co.za 

The Podcast:
Camera: Mluleki Dlamini & Siyabonga Meyiwa
Sound: Sibusiso 'Dust' Nkosi
Editing: Mluleki Dlamini & Kwenza Trevor Masinga
Co-ordinator: Phumelele Khambule
Host: Nongcebo Vukile McKenzie

Contact: info@nvmckenzie.co.za
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:21

Addict is a courageously honest account of Milton Shaw's life in active addiction and recovery. He's two decades sober and he relates the pivotal points in his journey towards death and back to life. This is a book where he bears his soul and shares his heart about his journey with addiction and recovery. He says, I wanted to be who I felt I was, broken, a wreck, unlovable. My name is Nongrebo Vugile-McKenzie. Ngewa mgele. Welcome to the podcast. So the title of the book is Addict, A Tale of Drugs and Recovery. Milton, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast for this conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19

What a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21

So I'm always curious, how come people that have had an addiction of sorts, let me say an addiction to a substance, they will count even if it's 20 years sober, even if it's 30 years sober, they will refer to that and say, I am a recovering addict of 30 years. I'm a recovering addict of 10 years or I'm 20 years sober. How come the addiction addiction and the recovery label is always attached

SPEAKER_02: 1:54

sure that is a that's an interesting question and it's the answer is quite layered I mean it depends on the person um But probably if someone's choosing to describe themselves like that, then there's a common reasoning behind it. And for me, it starts with, if you're a member of a 12-step program, then it's a part of your recovery, tracking the time you've been sober. And the reason for that is these fellowships, they exist for the benefit of the newcomer. They're built on someone with more experience helping someone with less experience. So a big part of labeling yourself and I know people often find that problematic like why would you label yourself something negative for me the positive in that label is I'm letting the newcomer know that I'm like them but I'm that far down the road and there is hope but then secondly you know for me it's important also to remember to remind myself that I I am an addict and it doesn't work for me to take substances. And really a big theme in the book for me, and it's something that I really wanted to address because I think often it's not addressed in sort of stories of addiction and recovery, is that addiction doesn't end. You don't sort of get to the end of your using and not be an addict anymore. Oh. Yeah, I mean, being an addict, it's described as a disease. I mean, I don't know about the mechanics of that. It seems like a weird thing to say, but it's certainly a personality type. And in my experience, it's not something that goes away. I'm still as much an addict today as I ever was, but I choose not to express that side of myself in destructive ways. But, you know, for me, an addict is someone who, who's always longing to kind of escape the present for various reasons. And so we find ways to do it. And when someone discovers substances or a certain kind of behavior, it works so well that it becomes a real problem in life. But once you stop doing that behavior, that desire to escape is still there. So recovery is really about replacing the means of escape with something positive and you know I think generally one can say that the only thing more satisfying than drugs or sort of strong behaviors is some form of spirituality and for me that's as simple as connecting with others to me connecting with other human beings connecting with self that is actually the baseline of what spirituality is and that is the baseline of what 12-step fellowships do and also the baseline of addiction is is being disconnected. So I know it's a long answer, but really I say that I'm an addict in recovery because what I'm saying is I'm someone that if I don't watch myself, I'll find ways to disconnect and escape. And these ways will cause problems in my life. I

SPEAKER_00: 5:50

would suppose then maybe that's why you'll find as you say that people would find a replacement addiction a positive addiction something rooted in spirituality maybe that's why you would then find that some people when they stop using the destructive substances or stop using substances destructively they would then throw themselves fully into something like a You know what it is, actually? It's seeking

SPEAKER_02: 6:34

wholeness.

SPEAKER_00: 6:37

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02: 6:38

And it's odd, you know, one way to describe wholeness is absence of self. It's like this feeling of being myself can be, it's so limiting and uncomfortable. And when that moment of escape happens, there's freedom, but that freedom is actually what wholeness is. The sharp edges aren't there anymore. I don't know if that makes sense. And it kind of happens emergingly. something else.

SPEAKER_00: 7:10

Now, what that makes me curious about is what is it that at age 12, 13, 14 is giving you that feeling that sort of what for most people people that age experimentation with things like thinners would just be a moment of naughtiness but for someone like yourself it's something deeper and it's really where that's how we see it manifest if i can put it that way that's where it becomes practicalized and operationalized for lack of a better word what is creating that because i mean we think oh our childhood um innocence you know all of that and we think okay the teens are a Yeah, well, I mean, I wouldn't

SPEAKER_02: 8:03

have described it in that way at that age.

UNKNOWN: 8:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 8:09

The way I see it is addiction is a personality type or call it a disease, and it's useful to call it a disease because it makes it very specific and it is very specific. And that disease is one of wanting to escape. It's a certain personality type. It's described in sort of addiction literature as a constant sense of unease, a constant sense of restlessness, right? So that's one thing. But then Add trauma to that, and then it gets magnified. But the problem with an addictive personality is Addicts are almost always very sensitive people. So even if someone has had relatively mild trauma in their life, that might be more than enough to cause a state to want to escape from. So for me, it was just quite simple. My father was an alcoholic. Not that I had an experience of him being an alcoholic when I was very young, but it's in the family. It's sort of in the air. So he and my mother had a bad relationship and they divorced when I was six. And I just felt utterly abandoned and alone. And also at that time, this was in the mid 80s, divorce was extremely rare. I mean, I was the only kid with parents that weren't together for probably five years, you know, until others started catching up. So for me, that was traumatic. And then add to that, our home life was just turned upside down. Like my father left, what money we had was gone and suddenly my mother was looking after three kids on her own with no work experience. You know, it was very tough. So home was not settled. Home was traumatic for me. And then I have this personality where I seek out ways to escape. And you combine them together and it's a recipe for disaster. So, you know, to me the thing is if someone is an addict, if someone has a personality, they're always going to get involved in these behaviors that take them down a dark path. It's just sort of inevitable.

SPEAKER_00: 10:36

So your parents get divorced. You leave your father's house at the age of seven. Your mother is, as you describe it in the book, she... Yeah. Yeah. that sense of comfort, that sense of homeliness does it differ from person to person that for some for someone it might fill some void for another person it does not I mean your foray into you know with the long bus rides and you know missing the bus sometimes and going into the other side of the tracks so to speak to school it enabled that to some degree but for some people that would be what would set them on the straight and narrow having that sense of stability being put in a rural area in a more rural area less fast paced you know more out to nature, fishing, busy, doing this, doing that. And it seems that that wasn't the case for you.

SPEAKER_02: 11:56

No, it wasn't the case for me. You know, that's the thing. It's so subjective. And really, if one's looking for a solution, I would say that the solution or the remedy is for someone to feel heard and feel seen. And for me, there was the potential. You know, my mom, so the context there is you know we're English speaking my parents are from Zimbabwe and she met this Afrikaner and initially it looked like everything was going to be great but once we all moved in together there was this big culture clash where us English kids are not as patriarchal you know it wasn't just the sense of the man is lord doesn't matter what happens and I'm not saying that in a negative way it's just that we operate very differently like You know, English kids are often just sort of more outspoken and it's not so much you respect someone because of their age, let's say. And so he and I just didn't get on at all. And... So instead of there being, you know, you would hope there would be this kind of connection. Rather, the disconnection was worse. Suddenly, I was out of my comfort zone in the city, away from my friends, and in this rural environment that I didn't understand, where I didn't know anyone, and really, no one spoke English. So it was sort of worse. But really, what was lacking there... And that's for anyone. It's just this... Everyone has the thing that's troubling them. And their thing is their thing. And it doesn't matter what it is. It can be big or small. And all that's really required, I think, is listening. And... For me, firstly, I didn't know how to express what I wanted. I mean, I was so angry. And, you know, I was angry with my father. You can't just replace your father. So, you know, my reflection on what you're saying is that it's not so much about the external. you know there's a point maybe when something kicks off that the external maybe causes something to happen but then really the problems are in the past and the past isn't in the present it isn't in your reality around you it's inside you and it's that that needs to be sort of teased out and that really is was my big experience writing the book you know someone asked me the other day if it was cathartic to write it and it wasn't really cathartic to write it because I I'm writing it from 20 years later. But I've been through those moments of catharsis in therapy and realization over the years. But what was really profound for me was seeing it all in perspective and so making sense of it all. Because also, I had to take my life and put it into a narrative. So obviously, I'm simplifying everything, taking gray and making it black and white for the purposes of telling a linear story. And that forced me to just make meaning out of it. And then, for me, it just became so... So kind of sillily clear that I come from a family in which addiction is present. So there's a genetic predisposition. And then I had a classic... upbringing where I felt unseen, unloved and unsafe. And then just at the right time, I discovered substances that made me feel safe. Because, you know, really what addictive behavior does is it gives the person control over Like for me, taking drugs, it's a way to control my emotions because I find my emotions overwhelming. I'm very sensitive. Drugs, both in the pleasure and the pain of them, give you control. It's the same with eating disorders, controlling your eating. It's this profound way to take a world that feels scary and just too much and too big and overwhelming and make it a dumb it down and make it fit into what makes me feel comfortable. And it's so interesting, you know, the process of recovery really is going, you know, there's a phrase where you've got to sit with your feelings. Like addicts don't like sitting with their feelings. We find ways to avoid our feelings. That's what we're doing. So the process of recovery is sitting with them and making friends with them and not running away from them.

UNKNOWN: 17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:02

It's paradoxical in a way because the very thing that leads you to spiral out of control, you seeking control by using it, that's quite paradoxical.

SPEAKER_02: 17:15

It is, it seems paradoxical, but actually where it isn't is what the addict is trying to control is this feeling of being overwhelmed inside.

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 17:32

The behavior stops that feeling.

SPEAKER_00: 17:37

Aha.

SPEAKER_02: 17:38

It is actually working on the inside. Aha. But on the outside, consequences are building up and it's getting worse and worse. And so, yes, there the paradox happens. So the more we try to self-medicate, like, you know, the classic example is addiction is like trying to cure a headache by hitting yourself in the head with a hammer. Right? And it's a very good example, actually, because... What happens is I've got a headache, so I smack myself in the head with a hammer. Maybe not that hard, but hard enough. The sensation of the hammer distracts me from the headache. But it doesn't last so long and it's got to happen again and it's got to happen again. But it works every single time. Does that make sense? Yes. So on the outside, it seems utterly insane. But on the inside, what the addict is doing... It works. It's completely logical. Each time the addict doesn't eat or drinks or takes a drug, that awful feeling inside of not being enough, that feeling of restlessness is taken away. But then, of course, as you say, this is why you've got to find a different behavior because these behaviors are not sustainable long term. They're so damaging and self-destructive. But that's the process is one is trying to medicate this feeling inside. And the reason addicts do it endlessly is because it works.

SPEAKER_00: 19:25

In reading the book, the first few chapters really trace the journey from your father's house to the West Coast. And the pattern starts to develop, you know, from drinking the brandy, finding the brandy, using the Tippex, eventually finding friends that you could experiment with in terms of substance use to finally how you ended up getting arrested is stepping across to the other side of the tracks because it's that's where you could buy certain types of drugs. But what's interesting in that first portion of the book is that obviously you're in a rural area and there's, as you say, you describe it so nicely, as you go further up the hill, it's sort of like you can trace the money going up the hill, so to speak. And in the lower part of the hill, the bottom of the hill is where you're going to find the less well off people in the area and then as you say you get arrested the king is summoned and you are catapulted now into the top of the hill but now back in Cape Town but you find the same problem because what we associate destructive substance abuse with is associated with people who are in areas where there's a lot of social ills, where economically those areas are not well off, where there's high unemployment, where there's areas that are not serviced well, where you look at them and you think, okay, I'm not surprised that this would happen here. That is the stereotype that we build in our heads. But when you see fancy gated estate and we see fancy homes and we see private schools we then stereotype again we believe oh everything is clean and shiny everything is perfect but what interests me is your father then comes you then move in with him and his wife and then you start going to private school and that's where things really now escalate and you put it you know so clearly in the book on page 87 where you say I wanted heroin now you talk about the movie the Leonardo DiCaprio movie Basketball Diaries and it's interesting again what was interesting for me in the book is I mean I watched the movie when it came out as well because I would have been in high school it's so hard trying to trace because you write the books in grades obviously for relevance but we would have been in standard something hey the Yes, yeah. So I can't remember if it was like... I

SPEAKER_02: 22:10

think I was sort of standard eight at the time or so.

SPEAKER_00: 22:12

Yeah. So when the movie came out, it scared the living daylights out of me because I was like... But again, it's interesting how the stimulus response is different for different people because for you, that is what you wanted to... And that is what you saw, and you saw it acted out, and that's what made sense, in parenthesis, for you. And that's how you were able to crystallize, I want heroin.

SPEAKER_02: 22:42

Yeah. You know, what I saw in that movie, and for me what was so powerful was... I think because Leonardo DiCaprio has an amazing way of sort of crying. You know, he just lets it all out. He just sobs. You know, he's snotting and tearing. And I think what really captured me about that movie was he was, his character was expressing himself

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

differently

SPEAKER_02: 23:22

He was expressing himself by going down this path of destruction. And it's not so obvious in the movie or focused on, but his single mom is raising him. And there's a lot of tension between him and her. And that's something I really related to. And really, the movie is about... his mom, his relationship with his mother, even though you see her quite seldom, you know, in the beginning you meet him and her and they have a kind of a friendship and then he goes off in drugs and as he gets worse and worse, she eventually has to kick him out of the house, but you see her pain when he's in pain and You know, that's what I wanted. I wanted my parents to see me and love me. And combined with my addictive personality and the situations I was in, it was absolutely logical for me to go and find the worst drug at that time, you know, the most dangerous drug, as a way to call them. But what is fascinating, and this is what I've learned in recovery, is I wasn't trying to call my parents of the day. I was trying to right the wrong of the past. My younger self was trying to call my parents that abandoned me then At the age of 16, when I decided to do this, my mother was trying, but I was too angry with her. And I mean, my father came to fetch me, but I didn't try and bond with him. I carried on being... being angry and rebellious. And it's the same sort of thing as what we're saying now about it seems illogical. It's what's going on inside. You know, I had, now I was stuck with this knot inside that's located in the past. And in that movie, I saw the solution to that pain of the past, which is this is how I can express myself. But one is blind. Addiction is blindness. It's denial. It's not realistic. So that was my attraction to that movie. In it, I saw in him how I felt. And I wanted to express that. to try and get relief from the past. And of course that didn't work, you know, and that's why people are stuck in self-destructive things because, you know, they're bargaining with something that doesn't exist anymore. You know, someone was hurt as a child and now they're 50 years old and they've got problems in life and they don't really realize it's coming from somewhere in the past And the behaviors, you know, someone who's constantly in a bad relationship, let's say, a string of marriages, and each one sort of ends up the same.

SPEAKER_01: 26:55

It's

SPEAKER_02: 26:56

because that part of them inside themselves is still doing the same thing that that child wanted. You know, and the solution is to understand what's going on. So that then you can start to apply your adult mind to things and realize, well, maybe I can do something different. You know, there's a big addiction. It's just all about denial. It's all about not really knowing what the truth is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:26

You've just said something so powerful because the terms that are often used for people that are are trying to cope with something that happened in their childhood or in their past with some form of addictive behavior, some form of destructive addictive behavior. We'll hear they're battling with their inner demons or they're struggling to come to terms or they're struggling to cope. I've never heard it put it in a way that is how you've put it now. You are bargaining with something that doesn't exist anymore so how I'm understanding that even outside of an addiction context you know you'll sometimes hate somebody who mistreated you 10 years ago and they were downright awful to you and you still hate them and you still have conversations with them in your head and you still have conversations with them about them with your friends and you are bargaining with something that doesn't exist anymore it's not in the present and I've never heard it put that way so you know and the reason why I'm taking it out of the substance abuse context is that a person might say well I'm not doing drugs well I'm not drinking well I'm not I'm not I'm not in coping with whatever hurt that we've experienced in whatever context you know they'll say don't ruminate and what have you and sometimes you do sometimes you'll think about it and sometimes you'll cry and sometimes you know But when you then start to engage in certain behaviors that will not have a good outcome for you because you are bargaining with something that does not exist, that's powerful. That is so powerful, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:20

I remember, for me, you know, what's interesting about this book is it ends really when I get into recovery. And then we jump 20 years and I give a summation of who I am now. But really, everything I've learned has been in the 20 years that isn't in the book. But it's difficult to write about because... It's not dramatic. It's this long, slow, grinding process of slowly figuring things out. But for me, I had this experience when I was roughly 10 years clean. That's when my awakenings really started. It takes a long time. I had this amazing sponsor, and I was once again coming out of a relationship that I just could not handle. I could not handle intimacy. And this guy was able to show me that, I was still craving my mother's love. You know, what happened for me is my mom kind of disappeared because she was trying to look after all of us. I just had no relationship with her anymore. And I didn't even really realize it. I always thought I had issues with my father who left, but actually I had more issues with my mother. And this guy showed me that... every relationship I've ever had, but almost every interaction I've ever had, there's a part of me that is trying to get my mother's attention. But the mother, the person whose attention I'm trying to get is my mother when she was 35. At that time, my mother was 60. And I wasn't really interested in my mother. I would speak to her once a month, sort of out of duty. But inside, I'm craving the attention of this woman who doesn't exist. He literally said that to me. Do you see how you're trying to get the attention of someone that doesn't exist? And it just was like, what? You know, it's so powerful. And then you realize something. You know, you can call them maybe dysfunctional beliefs. You know, people carry beliefs about the world and about themselves. And that informs their point of view and therefore their behavior. And if someone is being self-destructive, it is because they have a belief that is at odds with reality and they probably don't know it because no one really wants to be self-destructive. No one chooses that. You'd rather choose to be happy. Anyone would. Anyone would. You know, so it's really fascinating.

SPEAKER_00: 32:09

Yeah, our default settings are towards self-preservation.

SPEAKER_02: 32:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 32:15

So when you self-destruct, as you say, your beliefs are at odds with reality.

SPEAKER_02: 32:21

Yeah, because that self-destruction is an attempt at staying safe. It's just like that thing with the hammer. The hammer, it's so violent, but actually it is the only thing the person knows that distracts them from the migraine. It feels better because at least you can control it. Now

SPEAKER_00: 32:45

I'm curious because you've been able to sort of dissect the various aspects of your anger. So the not fitting in on the West Coast, the parents separating, the lack of emotional availability from your mom, which was, of course, not through any desire of her own. It's just coping with three children. I'm trying to look at this from a parent's point of view because there might be a mother who's listening. And oftentimes, actually, you'll hear this from parents Yes. their mother so badly and he swears at her and he abuses her and it's really really awful and obviously people were saying to her but you're recording this why aren't you doing anything and she was explaining to them well this is not a once off just because I'm recording this today it doesn't mean I haven't done anything on other days and you're seeing this mother who's going to work who for whatever reason, is a single mother and is raising two children. I mean, they're single dads. It's not just about single mothers. A parent provides as best as they can. So they make a home out of what they can afford to make a home. For some people, it's fancy homes. And for some people, it's just basically a roof above your head. But I think the common denominator when a parent would hear this, and this is not to negate your parents, your perspective or your feelings or any such thing. I'm just trying to look at it from a parent's point of view where most of those parents would say, I got out of a bad marriage. so that you guys could feel safe in a home I didn't want to raise you guys in an abusive home or in a home where there's substance abuse or where I was not happy because I was losing myself you know the contexts vary right and the mother will say I'm a nurse I work 12 hour shifts or I'm a security guard I work 12 hour shifts to provide for you because your parent your other parent is not coming to visit you they're not providing they're not paying maintenance there are many you know I'm just you know, literally cherry picking the examples that come quickly to mind. But there are many, many contexts where a parent would say, oh, come on. really I'm literally breaking my back to give you the best life that I can give you and I'm not out working as a security guard because I want to it's because that's the job that's available and it's the job that will feed you send you to school etc and you are angry with me and you are angry with yourself and you are destroying yourself when I'm out here doing the best that I can now with your reflection over the past 20 years post your post your post your addiction how do you look at that now what would you say to that parent

SPEAKER_02: 36:08

in terms of

SPEAKER_00: 36:10

the perspective of the child the perspective of the child because how parents often take it as they take it as though the child is being disrespectful is being rude doesn't appreciate all the effort that they're making you know all the yeah

SPEAKER_02: 36:26

I mean

SPEAKER_00: 36:28

And they blame themselves also. That's the other thing. They blame themselves. Like, what could I do better?

SPEAKER_02: 36:32

Yeah, you know, I think there's different aspects to it. And the first one, let me say, for me, I embrace my past fully and appreciate it. I... I didn't behave the ways I behaved because of what my parents lacked. It contributed, but there's many people that had a far worse upbringing than I did who just remained wonderful. At every stage, I had choices, but I always chose self-destructive means. The essence of addiction is there's no No excuses. Addicts are not excused from their behavior.

SPEAKER_01: 37:27

But

SPEAKER_02: 37:28

in order to change, they need to understand it. So the first aspect of what I'm saying is I don't, it's not my mother's fault. Like 1,000%, it's not my father's fault. It's my fault. And therefore, That arms the parent. I mean, if I have a son, he's nearly 23 now. And lucky for me, he just... And it's testament to his mom, who's also an addict, but also in recovery, who just made sure that, you know, she kept his home stable. But also, he's not an addict in his heart for whatever reason. So I'm lucky I didn't have to deal with that stuff. But if I did have to, for me, the plan of action, you know, is honest connection, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the parent, you know, is a human being as well. So let's say this person who's working as a security guard and the child is ungrateful, like, you know, there's a point where, well, that's life. Like, I don't think... I don't think a parent whose child turns out bad should blame themselves too much. I mean, in my case, my parents came straight from the civil war in Zimbabwe in which they lived their own experience for a decade. They were attacked in their home multiple times with bombs. My dad was a soldier from the age of 17. And What that entire society did to cope was drink. And they got married at the age of 20 with zero knowledge of how to communicate. It was never going to work. So I suppose what I'm getting at is all we can do is work with the truth. But it's when we work with the truth that healing happens. So here's your mythical security guard mom. That's the truth. She only has this much time for her kids. If she can, I recommend that she try to just speak to them honestly and explain to them what life is like and what's happening for her and how... She knows that there's maybe an element of parenting lacking here, but she isn't able to fill it. But she is there with the love she has, you know, and it's tough.

SPEAKER_01: 40:45

Yeah, it is. And then

SPEAKER_02: 40:46

the child needs to do what they need to do. But, you know, the more, I just think all it is is availability. Like for me, my father, I had no idea who he is. I saw him very seldom, like once every two years sometimes. But then the messaging I got from my mother was that he was a very bad person. And so in my mind, he was someone that I longed for.

SPEAKER_00: 41:21

And how can you be longing for a bad person?

SPEAKER_02: 41:24

Exactly, you know, and it caused so much... But, you know, he hurt my mom so badly. All my mom was hurt, you know. It's just, so how I learned from that is, you know, I didn't grow up with my son. His mom and I split up when he was about two. But my practice with him was to always be nearby and always to be available. so that I wasn't this weird mystery in his life. Because that is what I found so painful. I just didn't understand what was going on. But we only learned this. I only made a slight improvement Or maybe a big improvement on what my parents went through and how they behaved. But I didn't go through what they went through. Like, I can't even imagine what my dad went through, you know? And now my son is so clearly an improvement on me. Like, you know, this is how we learn. It's from mistakes. So, yeah, that's kind of my big answer is... I am glad for my past because I've learned so much from it. And it's good for me to be an addict because people who aren't addicts have the same pain, but not the same level of consequence. So they're not forced to learn as much. An addict has to learn because otherwise we kill ourselves. And so I've had this gift of learning. And I'm happy for that. And

SPEAKER_00: 43:07

what did you learn? if you're comfortable to share from there's the friend I say in parenthesis because he became an acquaintance through your new schoolmates at the private school the one who did die from an overdose and you know I read about his level of use as you describe it in the book and as you said you simplified a lot of what was going on to create a linear story I was amazed that he had actually been alive that long and he eventually you know did overdose and he did die and I can only imagine and what that does because doesn't it create sort of a conflict because you're looking on one end at this substance or substances that bring you that temporary relief but that you can see are destroying your life and then you're looking at your friends who okay these are the people we do this with and then through this escape mechanism that you guys are using one of them dies and it feels tumultuous just describing it I can only imagine what it feels like living through the experience

SPEAKER_02: 44:19

well this is the thing with that analogy of the hammer

SPEAKER_00: 44:22

yeah

SPEAKER_02: 44:23

is you know the hammer might kill you you might hit your head too hard with the hammer and you might kill yourself but still it's the only thing you know that takes the headache away

SPEAKER_01: 44:35

yeah

SPEAKER_02: 44:35

and the pain of the head egg is worse than your fear of death that's the bottom line it's like but it's on the level of like a mosquito you know the constant buzzing of a mosquito around you it's not a huge pain

SPEAKER_01: 44:52

it's

SPEAKER_02: 44:53

almost it's almost worse like a huge pain you can deal with that's the pain of the hammer

SPEAKER_00: 44:59

it's a dull constant drop

SPEAKER_02: 45:01

you know but this this dull irritating constant That's, you know, it's like Chinese water torture. It's just a drip, a drip, a drip. So about Manny in the book, he was actually very interesting to me because... I always try and test my theories of addiction on my friends. Because it seems to me that every addict has a pain source for their behavior. But sometimes there are those, and I literally can think of only two in my mind and in my life experience. One guy that I know today who's in recovery and he's doing very well, And that guy, Manny, and I could never figure out what his problem was. He came from a wealthy family, but that really means nothing. You know, often wealth is more destructive spiritually, you know. But his family seemed pretty good, and he had an older brother who was very happy. He was just such a strange black sheep. And He just could not stop. And what I learned from him, what I'm left with from him, I suppose it's on the level of like a movie star that died, like maybe Heath Ledger or River Phoenix or something. He was an amazing person. He was so charismatic. You know, he was always the life in any room. But part of the reason he was like that is because of his addictive personality. So what I learned from him is that life is sometimes tragic. You know, this conversation isn't about how do we make everyone safe. What it's really about is how do we deal with our own lives. And the nature of life is life is not going to conform. what you want sometimes it's utterly tragic and so what I learned from him is he will always be this kind of part of me that is sort of full of joy is full of energy is always willing to like go on an adventure and also not a warning but an example of what I don't want. I don't want to waste the beauty that I have, the amount of energy that I have, the amount of talent that I have. Waste being not let it express itself as much as it can, let's say. You know? So, yeah, that's what he leaves me with is... is life is difficult, but the beauty comes from turning it into your own script in relation to the truth of it.

SPEAKER_00: 48:21

I was left wondering how Eli is. Yeah. Because that was a sad story because his father had committed suicide in the home. And obviously you met Eli at school. And he was also into substance abuse. And when you describe him as a very kind and soft and gentle person, and you can only just imagine how that experience would have affected him. And I wonder how he is.

SPEAKER_02: 48:57

Yeah, in the writing of the book, because I lost touch with most people, especially the high school people that I was involved with, of heroin in high school. And I often looked for Eli over the years, like tried to look him up on social media, but could never, never found him. And I heard that his sister had died. His sister was also an addict a little bit older than him. So I assumed that he didn't make it. But serendipitously, let's say, the character of Brittany or Brittany popped up somehow. I saw her maybe on LinkedIn or something, like something just random. And I managed to connect with her and we had lunch together. And she was able to tell me that he is in the UK and he's got a family and he seems to be okay. So isn't that nice? And yeah, he is, as you described, like he was a... Such a beautiful soul, like, yeah, so gentle, so soft and so kind and so obviously in pain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:14

And is Brittany okay? Because I was amazed because you write the story obviously in grade, so grade eight. So she would be, she would have been in standard six and she was already into quite some serious drugs. Is she okay?

UNKNOWN: 50:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:28

Yeah, I met her and, I mean, she's been through it. Like, she is okay, but she wears the scars. They're prominent, you know. I find, you know, addicts beautiful. I find this part of my life beautiful. You know, I go to a meeting once a week. Oh, still? Where addicts gather together. Yeah, yeah. And it's my life. It's my life. church really it's where I really feel at home and I feel at home among these people who for whatever reason their pain got the better of them and they made they went through the mill they went through hell and there's something about a person that has been through hell there's a there's like a gallows humor but there's an understanding you know there's a there's a kinship so yeah she She's quite the worse for wear, but she's making a good life for herself. She's got, I think, two kids, and they're doing well. And, yeah, she's bettering her own experience now. in the way she's parenting them. But she's been through, she's had a hard life and you can see it. To me, it's that sort of Japanese technique of you fix a cracked bowl with gold. I can't remember what it's called now, but the bowl that was cracked is now this beautiful, imperfect thing. And it is actually stronger than it was before. And it doesn't look how it was supposed to look. It's different. It's misshapen slightly. But that scar is actually gold. You know, it just depends what you do with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 52:28

So you spoke of David. He is going to be 23 soon. And in the book, you speak about... I'm not sure what the term you use within your family unit is. Some people would say stepfather. Some people would say bonus father. Some people would say his mother's husband or his mother's partner. So I don't want to make assumptions as to how you refer to the gentleman that you refer to as Sai in the book. But you speak about him very fondly in the book and about how kind he was and what an enabler he was for you to be able to show up for David.

SPEAKER_02: 53:09

Yeah, he's one of my great friends. He really is. He is an absolute blessing. He just finished reading it. I think two days ago, sent me a message saying, just well done. I'm so proud of you. And, you know, I got to say, well, thanks to you. You know, I wouldn't be here without you. And then he said, oh, well, thanks to David's mom as well. And I said, absolutely. She's the glue. Yeah, we just, just the right mix of personalities. And this is where I guess spirituality comes in. I'm not a religious person at all, but grace happens. Moments of grace happen. And they happen when they do, and they might take 20 years, but they happen. And they seem to happen at the right time. And for me, a moment of grace happens was my you know David's mom picking him and him coming into our lives because he's just so extraordinarily call it egoless like he's a very accomplished person um But he never really has the need to defend himself, I suppose, because he's just that comfortable with who he is. So always our dynamic, like I'm very fiery. His mom's also very fiery. And then he was always there in the middle, able to just go like, but guys, what's more important here? Why are you upset? Tell me, you know. So, yeah, I have been blessed. Like, we have a great family. David's mom was quite a lot older than me, or a bit older than me, so she had more kids with Si, and I've always been in their lives. I always used to babysit when they were younger. They're all nearly grown up now. And, you know, I've had Christmas there every year for the last 20 years.

SPEAKER_00: 55:20

My goodness.

SPEAKER_02: 55:22

Yeah, yeah, and generally Si, David, and myself will watch rugby together. pretty much all the Springbok matches will get together. And he's his other dad. Like when David was younger, we'd go to school functions, you know, when he was in primary school and high school, and it would be just the two of us, like his mom's not there for whatever reason. And we'd just say, oh, no, we're David's dads. And we'd just leave it there. And of course, there's a lot of like shifty glances and not sure what to say. You know? Yeah, and it's not the norm. But I can say that also it wasn't just luck. We just all... Because Sai also, he came from a very tough childhood. I mean, he's an example. He... I think he went to 20 schools.

SPEAKER_00: 56:21

Oh, my goodness.

SPEAKER_02: 56:22

Yeah, they moved so many times. His upbringing was so unstable. But his response was always just gentle kindness and just kind of keep going and get things done. You know, he's an example of what I'm talking about, like not an addictive personality. But because we all had these difficult childhoods, we all had the same vision of the kids are more important than our own egos. And we each just individually, equally had that same ethos. So every time, of course, there were lots of issues that came up between us, we were all able to just go, all right, I'm really angry, but... It's not helping. So I'll speak to you guys next week, whatever it is, you know. And we worked on that and, you know, I'll own that. But it's, you know, life's strange.

SPEAKER_00: 57:27

But as you so beautifully put it and so poetically put it, as you said, you believe in grace and in moments of grace. And your moment of grace was when David's mom picked him up. Oh, that's just so beautiful. I read this and it's really not a funny moment in the book. It really is not. But I laughed because obviously, as you said before, you simplified things to tell a linear story. For us, reading the book, it sort of like tracks a timeline. But obviously, we know there's the ebbs and flows of the realities of life in between, the light and shade of it all. But to us... because that's how the book is written and that's how books are written, it's so simple to see that the drugs are a problem. And then you say in page 169, and again, I emphasize, it's not funny, but when you say... Oh no, it's hilarious. It's hilarious. And then you say on page 169, and then I'll read it. And then a thought I will never forget, which rose in me, on an electric rush of emotion that crackled the tears on my cheeks it's the drugs i shit you not this was the first time i had thought of this it's the drugs that are the problem i sat straight up ears pricked towards this new information i realized then that I had always seen drugs as the solution to my emotional struggles, my eternal disquiet. But in fact, it was the drugs that were the problem. I shit you not, I hadn't once thought this until that moment.

SPEAKER_02: 59:16

Yeah, which is... just true. And honestly, that's that hammer analogy. It's such a good analogy. It's like someone's been hitting themselves in the head with a hammer to control their headache. And after a few years, suddenly looking at the hammer going, hang on, the hammer is causing the headache.

UNKNOWN: 59:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:44

And, you know, it's just true. But there is an added layer, though, which is it's not actually the drugs

SPEAKER_01: 59:53

that

SPEAKER_02: 59:53

were the problem. It's the addiction and the addiction behavior and the source of that underneath it. But it's like the drugs are like the sign, right? This is where you need to look. You know, that was the one point I always thought was the good part. The hammer is the good part. No, no, no, no. The hammer is the bad part, my friend. Why are you hitting yourself with a hammer?

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:24

So I'm always curious, and as we end our conversation, because we've all lived and we all have weaknesses. We've all had experiences. We've all had our own dot, dot, dot ellipsis. And it takes a lot to write, to even tell someone about something that you feel maybe was silly or something that you feel shame about or any such thing. Now, to write a book that chronicles your journey of substance abuse, and you share some very intimate things, the gentleman that you met after your bike was stolen and that encounter on that night. You know, maybe there are people in your life who read the book who might never have heard that. I don't know. Or maybe there are people who know you from afar or, you know, you've taught, you know, you act and you do all kinds of work and there are people who might not have known that about you. And now it's in the book. They know all about your family. And I actually still wanted to ask how your sisters are. You've spoken about your family and you've laid that all out bare in what you feel is in a more simplistic way compared to your lived experience. as you explained but to us you know this is very you know it's it's it's bearing your your heart and your soul and I'm always curious because that takes a lot of bravery and I'm always curious why a book

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:00

Well, I mean, I have very specific reasons that might be different to others in that I was already a writer. You know, this is my third book. And before I started writing novels, I wrote for TV and film and I started in theater. Like my calling in life as I choose it is I'm a storyteller. And I've been working hard at it for as long as I've been in recovery, really. And I never wanted to write about that sort of thing. I didn't want to write my story, mainly because I felt that doing that would be sort of a bit sensationalist and a bit cheap. Like, I wanted to succeed in fiction, actually. And I always, and I usually find books about addiction that To be sensational and untrue, like they're sort of presented as sort of these heroic tales where this person just flies too close to the sun and eventually they learn a lesson exactly like the Basketball Diaries. I mean, that movie ends with, he's suddenly better. And I always just thought that was silly. But in tandem to that, I've been in recovery for 20 years, and I've both been counseled by others and counseling others. And the way we do it is we simply tell our story. You tell your story, someone hears it, and they can relate to their own life. And then the parts where they are confused suddenly, There's clarity in hearing someone else's experience. These things were always running side by side until last year, really. It just kept coming up in a way that, again, sort of serendipity or grace. I was ready to look at myself in this way. I just kept hearing people saying, why have you not written about this? And in my fiction, you know, the themes of my life are very much there. They're just in the fictional life of characters. And so then the question became... Because my enjoyment of writing is... to communicate something that becomes special for the reader, that really changes them in some way. And it's not that I want to change them, but I want to really offer something beautiful and honest that becomes a treasured part of their life. That's my main objective as a writer. That's what I love. And so then the question was, like, what am I doing? The thing that I probably know the best is that I could probably write about with the most honesty and the most passion and maybe even the most simplicity, I'm refusing to write about because of like a prejudice against books about addiction. And it just then became just obvious that I must at least try. So, you know... That's why on the surface I did it, but then inside it was also just a natural progression of as someone in recovery, my goal is to help others. This is the way I stay healthy. This is my new drug is helping others. And I'm not like a philanthropist. I'm selfish. I just work. This is the way that I do it. It's not like I'm a good person. I'm not. I'm a grumpy, prickly, difficult character a lot of the time. But at the same time, I have this to offer the world. I would say... This is what I have to offer the world. And in whatever way, big or small, and I think the best anyone can do is offer what they have, big or small. So, yeah, that's why. And then... Yeah, it's, you know, being so honest about things, but everyone has a skeleton in their closet. Everyone, you know, everyone knows what it feels like to have experienced something that isn't, you know, socially acceptable, but it's real. And they carry it. And how do you deal with these things? And, you know, my whole, I guess, perspective is the truth is what heals. So let's talk about the truth. Yeah, it was quite frightening, especially it was around when we were choosing the cover. And the publisher kept saying, well, you know, the cover, which is just your face, is really the strongest. I didn't want that. But it was true. And, you know, that made it real to me, like, this is what this book is. I'm bearing my life. But I got to deal with that then. So actually, by the time the book came out, I'd already dealt with it. And now... You know, the responses are like your response. The responses are that, well, this book was helpful to me. I appreciate this book. And that's the point. What better could I do with my life? Nothing. There's nothing. So I'm quite happy with it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:41

Milton, thank you so much. But I am curious, how are your sisters?

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:47

They're good, eh? Yeah, each in their own. Both became addicts. My older, obviously, sooner than my younger. And both are in their own form of recovery. My older's in therapy and learning so much. My younger got into also 12-step fellowships. And so, yeah, it's like I said, they have scars. We all have scars and they all affect us. But they also become our strength rather than our weakness. And it's also a reflection of my family. You know, there's a description of addiction is like a bomb going off in the living room. It just scatters bodies, you know. My family is scattered. A lot are living in Australia. My father's in Asia. I'm here in South Africa. We're very far apart. We all get together maybe every five years. But our relations are so honest. Like, we're not that close, but we are so intimate. And there's no secrets. You know, we know each other. And I just treasure it. I treasure it. Like, my father and my mother, they're not close, but everything is resolved. And... Everything is true. Let me put it that way. In our family, everything is true. And I think it's amazing. Yeah, this book has been good. You know, obviously everyone read it and obviously it was a bit difficult, but it also caused good conversations and better relationships all around. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:41

I love how you've put that. We are not close, but we are intimate and everything is true. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:50

Thank you for your time, Milton, and thank you for sharing your story and for sharing your journey.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:55

Thank you. I appreciate your interest so much, and thank you for just a wonderful, deep interview. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:04

Thank you. And thank you for joining us for another episode of the podcast. Remember, you can like, rate, and share this podcast from the channel you're listening on.