'Corporate Newsman' with Dr Kaizer Nyatsumba

Kaizer Nyatsumba, renowned journalist and commentator turned senior business executive, tells his remarkable story of transition and integrity. From his birth in poverty on a farm at White River in Mpumalanga, to his studies at the University of Zululand, Georgetown University in the United States and the University of Hull in the United Kingdom, becoming a journalist and newspaper editor, and finally a senior business executive on listed and non-listed companies in South Africa.  SOURCE: NB Publishers

Dr Nyatsumba is our guest on this episode of The Podcast to chat about his book, 'Corporate Newsman'. 

The Podcast:
Camera: Mluleki Dlamini & Siyabonga Meyiwa
Sound: Sibusiso 'Dust' Nkosi
Editing: Mluleki Dlamini & Kwenza Trevor Masinga
Co-ordinator: Phumelele Khambule
Host: Nongcebo Vukile McKenzie

Contact: info@nvmckenzie.co.za
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:21

Peter Sullivan, former editor-in-chief of The Star, comments and says, we meet many Kaiser Nyatsumbas in this revelatory book, not an ordinary life. Mike Siluma, Sunday Times deputy editor, makes a contribution saying, it sheds a new light on the life of black professionals during apartheid and then, after it ended, its achievements and disappointments. Thank you very much. My name is Nongrebo Vukile Mackenzie. Welcome to the podcast. Our guest on this episode of the podcast is Dr. Kaiser Nyatsumba, author of the book Corporate Newsman. We meet him as the author of the book, but of course, he's got a very rich and colorful history as a journalist and much more in South Africa. Dr. Nyatsumba, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

Thank

SPEAKER_02: 1:49

you very much, ma'am. I appreciate it. Dr. Nyatsumba, you know, what really first caught me in your book is in the prologue at Death's Door. where you narrate your three near-death experiences. And the one that really caught me was the one when you were a young boy, where your mother, then when you woke up after what had seemed like a fever, and then she said, Bebek, tue bulil. And I read that and what caught me is the transparency just in those first few pages in the book because that's something that very few people talk about, those kinds of experiences, the experience of that spiritual realm or spiritual experience, albeit a negative one. It's something that people rarely talk about.

SPEAKER_00: 2:38

Yes, ma'am. It was for me something very real, something that has lived with me because had it not been for the presence on the day of my uncle, I would not be here. That had happened. We had gone fishing as a family and it rained very heavily. and I started having a fever and I was not there for three days. I was physically there, but I was as good as dead as my parents were. My parents were concerned and they kept calling out my name. I couldn't respond. And then my uncle came and performed some ritual that resulted in me beginning to hear them from a distance and eventually becoming my full self. And I was told a few days later that that is what had happened. It was a very scary moment and to this day, it is very vivid in my memory And I felt it was important to begin the book by indicating these three occasions when I came very close to death. And the reason I did that is to indicate my belief that there's a reason in my view why God spared me through those moments to be around today.

SPEAKER_02: 4:03

And it's interesting that they happened while you were so young, though.

SPEAKER_00: 4:06

Indeed. Indeed, ma'am. In the context of the fact that my parents had lost two children at infancy, I was no longer an infant, but I was still young. And so this happens when they've already lost two children before my elder sister and myself. And so you could imagine the degree of concern and the fear among my parents.

SPEAKER_02: 4:31

So we fast forward to... You know, I referred to a previous interview that we did with another author, and he spoke of what he calls moments of grace, where things happen that change the entire trajectory of your life, whether you prayed for them, whether they're unexpected occurrences, or whatever the case might be, but they do arise in your life. And reading the book, yes, books tend to be written sort of like in a linear way but obviously life does not happen that way but they chart one's life in what seems to be a linear way when books are written and from what I could read in the book One of your moments of grace was obviously, you know, from Unizulu, Ongoi, where you studied the friendships that you made there and then the move to Georgetown University in the United States.

SPEAKER_00: 5:31

Yes, ma'am, I'd say the biggest moment of grace to use that phrase for me would have been the moment when the Department of Education in what was then Gangwane took interest in me. When I excelled in a psychological test and set a record because had it not been for that, I would not have ended up at Langezwa High and at the University of Zululand. That changed my life. But coming to the experience you're talking about, I was at the library at the University of Zululand and I saw an advertisement in the Natal Mercury, as it was called at the time, indicating the opportunity for students to study abroad. I applied, I got the scholarship. That was a very transformed experience in my life suddenly I found myself in the capital of the United States and some would say the world capital and in a university that was radically different from anything I could possibly have imagined we were just an entire and all black student body at the University of Zealand and I was one of a few black students at this all white Catholic the oldest Catholic university in the US and That considerably contributed to the person that I went on to become.

SPEAKER_02: 6:53

And I found it interesting and serendipitous that at Georgetown University, you happened to be seated at the same table as the elders, Begi and the elder, Tambo. And then, you know, fast forward, you become... the first black political reporter at the Star at such key moments in our history. I found it so striking and I found it looking and reading about your journalism career and your career in political reporting that when you look back and you look at that moment sitting with those men at that table at that university And, you know, looking, do you ever look at it retrospectively and think,

SPEAKER_00: 7:45

huh? Yeah, God works in very miraculous ways. He was indeed very serendipitous. I did not sitting at the table with Oliver Tambo shaking his hand and talking to him and him telling me his other name was Kaiser and talking to Oliver, to Tom Becky, think that I'd ever get to interact with them. ever, let alone in a democratic, in a country that was leading to a democracy when there was a transition. I was there when Oliver Tambo returned home. I was at the airport with my brother when he returned home to a hero's welcome. I got to know Tawambeki well. I interviewed him many times. before and post 1994. So indeed, it was as if I was being prepared for something. But at the time when it happened, I did not think that I would have anything to do with these men in my life and that I would get to interact with them in a different era and in a different context.

SPEAKER_02: 8:51

Because also when you went to University of Zululand, you had initially registered for a Bachelor of Science degree. And you then decided, as first year students often do, you then decided to change completely and you registered for a Bachelor of Arts. I'm curious as to what led to the change.

SPEAKER_00: 9:12

I have always been very interested in literature. I read very voraciously and I have always written and acted in and produced and directed plays at secondary school and at high school. And one of my high school teachers, and I refer to him because of the advice he gave me when I finished high school. He was at the book launch, and Mr. T.P. Bokako taught me physical science at Linesville High School. It was he who transferred us to Durban, to Thange, with the drama troupe that I led, and to Wanongoma, to act at Mdogoto High. And so when I was sitting for metric exams, he recommended, even though he had taught me physical science, that I should go to university and do speech and drama. I did not want to do that because I wanted to become a medical doctor. And so I registered for BSC with a view to proceeding after first year to the University of Natal or Medunsa to do my MBCHB2. But of course, I got very, very frustrated. By the amount of time I found myself spending in the zoology laboratory dissecting rats, as well as in the physical science laboratory mixing chemicals. And I realized that given my experience with blood, I would not go on to be a good doctor. And I changed. I changed completely. At the time, I belatedly acknowledged the advice previously given to me by Mr. Bukako to do speech and drama. That's what I was intent on doing. And the intended majors were English and speech and drama. And I took some communication. But it was as a consequence of the change that I went on to study English as a major at Georgetown and versus coming back here with the equivalent of an honours degree in English literature. But I also went on to study part-time journalism and went into that career. But yes, had I listened... the advice given to me by Mr. Bukako because he had worked with me, had seen how excellent and I was great as a drummer, as an actor. I would have been one of the best actors in the country and I was great as a director, I was great as a writer and the advice from the bottom of his heart was that's the direction I should have taken. But I was above all else, a writer. So I needed to work in a field that would make it possible for me to write, to continue to write. That is why journalism was the best career in the end.

SPEAKER_02: 12:16

So you say that you grew frustrated with the time spent in the zoology lab and in the chem lab. And you say that with your experience with blood, you just knew that you wouldn't become a good doctor. And a lot of people will push through that. A lot of people will be, you know what, I will get over this. I will push. I will learn to get used to it because at that time, those were careers that were viewed to be more stable with more prestige, uh, And it's easy when you are young and you're looking at the circumstances back home and you think, you know what, I will do this for home. And one of your dreams was to, you know, build a beautiful home for your father and your mother and your family. And yet you chose to follow what felt natural. And that's not easy. easy for most people to do that's not easy for most people to have that level of faith in themselves to know that you know what this is what I can follow and it's got a clear trajectory versus going in this direction that that sense of conviction within yourself where did that come from

SPEAKER_00: 13:30

I have always had a strong sense of self-belief. I have always known that if I put my mind to something, I will be able to do it. And so the change was not easy because I had longed for, for many years, wanted to be a doctor, and being a doctor carried, as you quite correctly pointed out, that degree of prestige. And I did well, too. The friends who have gone on to become medical doctors, in the first physical science biology test that we wrote I obtained the highest mark so I did well so it's not because I was not doing well in the sciences but I realized that I was drawn to medicine not because I wanted to be a doctor but because of the status it was the best thing there was for one to be at the time and I realized it was not going into it with the for the right reason and I felt let me do that which comes more naturally to me and I then once I had made that decision went ahead and changed and felt indeed at home that I ought from the beginning to have taken that direction. So

SPEAKER_02: 14:47

let's talk about your experience with Patricia. Again you are very transparent with regard to some of the lesser spoken about. experiences that people have within marriage and some of the lesser spoken about quite intimate conversations that people have within marriage and I can only imagine how hurtful it must be to fall in love with someone to you know believe I would like to think that most people go into marriage believing that this is the person that they will grow old with and they will then build a future with them. I'd like to believe that. And to then find yourself where, as you narrate in the book, that as soon as you know she started working then there was talk of divorce the whole experience with the moving out of the flat the whole experience with the confession that she later made when you had already gotten divorced when she called you to Midrand to make that confession the whole experience with Ashford walking all the way home all of that it must be something that touched your core as a father as a man to experience that level of rejection both with regard to the confession that Allah I can't imagine what it must be like when somebody repeatedly says, I'm going to get a divorce, I'm going to get a divorce, and then you wake up one day and they're really gone. How did you navigate that?

SPEAKER_00: 16:28

where I didn't know about the existence of a divorce or even separation. My parents stuck it out. My mother passed away when she was with my father. She was... a teenage bride when she met my father. She was in primary school and they had a life together. They lived throughout their lives together. So too did my grandparents. I did not, the concept of a divorce was very strange to me. There's something else that is not in the book that happened in Washington, D.C. I, Siponyawo, you may be familiar with the name. He came from Duzuma He was at Howard University and I was at Georgetown University. Both universities in Washington, D.C. were great friends. We were interviewed on the eve of the 10th anniversary of 2016. There was a on the 15th of June, 1986, on television. And subsequent to that, I got a call from a lady who was interested in me, and she said she was a divorcee. That scared me. I did not make myself available to meet her because the concept of being divorced was something that was very foreign to me. And I never met that lady. I subsequently apologized in a subsequent book her because I ought at the very least to have met her. So this is somebody who had proposed to me, Patricia Head. She had, I was a young person in 1985. I see her off to Park Station and she's going to the University of Western Cape and she says, how about we get married? I ignore that. And then I invited her to Washington D.C. to visit me and again she raised that idea and I respond to it. So I did not. I was not at the time of the view that I wanted to get married. I did not plan to get married at that time. And she came up with this concept twice. On the second occasion, I agreed. And everything was done. And so for somebody like that to then, upon qualification, come back and say, I want out in the manner that it happened, it really shattered me very badly. And especially because there was then my child. And to then say, but no, don't do this. Let's involve your parents, involve the uncle, involve my brother, Adonis and Mike Machabela on my side. And I said, let's go to the Catholic church, who was Catholic, who got counseling. And it got better for a while. And then subsequently it started again. And she said she wanted out. And when I asked about my son, she told me, She made that terrible statement that no mother should ever make. How do you know he's your son? So those things were very, very badly damaging to me. So much so that I resolved I would never get married again. I made that resolution to myself. I would never get married again. It hurt me very badly. And the manner of the departure with everything taken as described in the book was very painful, very, very painful. And I started from scratch with everything. I got married because I met somebody that I felt from the moment I met this person, I want to marry. As soon as I got to know her, I felt I would get married. But it was not because I had planned it. As a consequence of the pain I'd resolved, I would never get married again. It was a terrible moment in my life. It was shattering.

SPEAKER_02: 20:15

And it's something we often don't hear men speaking about transparently. Very few men will speak openly about that level of rejection. Very few men will speak openly about the manner that it was executed. I mean, from what I read in the book, regardless of whether that happens to a man or a woman, it's an awful, awful experience to have people come into your home, into your treasured space, your space of peace and tranquility. And that they are taking everything and that they're leaving especially when it's somebody that you plan to build a life with and then they bring their family or their support system to help them with that and very few men will open up about that and obviously the fact that you've written about it in the book is a very vulnerable representation of yourself, if I can put it that way. But it would also then give the impression that it's something that you have spoken about and that you are open about. And how does a man get to that point where something so deeply hurtful and as you say the statements that were made and then they're reinforced with you know a person not coming home and a person you know the child being knocked by the car and all of that it's such repeated micro brutalities if I can put it that way that when you look at them in totality I cannot even begin to imagine what state that leaves you in but I also can't imagine how you get to a point where you can be so When I

SPEAKER_00: 21:58

decide to write an autobiography, I believe I owe it to myself and to those who will read it to be vulnerable. I don't hold back. I say in the prologue that everything in the book is truthful. There's no element, I write fiction, I write poetry, but there's no element of fiction or anything that is untruthful in that book. And so I believe that if you're going to sit down and write about your life, write about it once and always. Don't hold back certain things. So that's what I've done. There are things that have been very, very painful and hurtful at the moment when they occurred. In fact, following the murder of my brother, Dennis, in 2009, it took my writing about that four years later to heal. So it helps me heal. It helps me confront certain issues. But more importantly, if I believe that if one is going to sit down and write a book, one calls an autobiography biography. One should be truthful about everything. One should not hold back certain things. So that's what I did in the book. And you're right, the vulnerabilities are there because I did not seek to hold back, to hide certain aspects of my life. I have exposed myself to the reader, words and all.

SPEAKER_02: 23:26

Let's talk about your mom. And obviously from the book, you share a lot about how you felt about your mom, how much you loved your mom and how dear she was to you. And obviously you share about her passing and you were at Georgetown. And it is so painful when you get the letter with the incorrect step that you then feel, had I gotten this letter in time?

SPEAKER_00: 23:53

But that, even as you mention it now, it brings tears to my eyes. Because you're so right. Firstly, I lost my mother. My mother was 39 when she passed on. I was something like 22, I think, at the time. I was 22 at the time. So it was a very, very early age. I was young and she was young. Even today, she should have been around to see my children, her grandchildren. And so it was very, very painful. It happened when I was so thousands of kilometers away and we're very, very close. So the difference in age between me and her was she was 17 when she got me. She was 22 when she was 39. She was 17 when she got me. She would have been 15 when she got my elder sister. Remember I told you she was a Yes. Mm-hmm. dollars per month. There was much more than my father ever earned. And so I would have happily given her the money to pay these people off so that she goes home. And that's the greatest source of pay of hurt that had I received that letter on time, should have been around. would have been able to pay off the people where she was doing her training and she would have returned home. And who knows, she would still be, my mom might have been still around today. So that... is the most painful thing. The fact that I could have made a difference in my mother's life. I would have made a difference in my mother's life and that I went on to succeed and she was not there. So when I turned 25 on the 2nd of November, 1988, I sat in my room and I almost cried. I was very melancholic. I wrote a poem then about how the absence of my mother affects me. I wrote a poem on the plane as I was coming to South Africa. And I wrote again on the 2nd of June, 1988, my first year of work at this time. Because I saw my tragedy, my professional tragedy. It was my first year of work. I was doing well and I was going somewhere. And she wasn't around. to enjoy the benefits of having raised me. That was very painful.

SPEAKER_02: 26:44

And you speak about your parents. I've noticed in the book and also as we've been speaking, you refer to your parents always my mother and my father, my mother and my father. For you, you represent them as a joint entity. And I can only imagine how different it felt. You know, you've got the picture of in the book of your father standing next to your car, your red car, and you talk about how you wanted to build a home for my parents. And in as much as it obviously doesn't make your father obsolete, but to you, the sense that I'm getting is that they were like a pair of turtle doves. And for you, that pair is what made home complete.

SPEAKER_00: 27:34

That is true. That is absolutely true. So much so that following the passing of my mom, it was difficult. My heart went out to my father, and it was very difficult for me to accept that my father moved on. And so soon after the passing of my mother. But as a man at this age, I think back and I realize it's very difficult for a man who has lost his partner, very difficult for a man to live alone. He worked to wake up early in the morning to get himself ready to Washington the weekend. So I can understand why he felt the need to move on so speedily. In my view, It was way too early. And I was very angry at him as a consequence of that. Over time, I made peace with it. And I got to accept this woman that I returned home and found him with and the children that she had. But to tell you the truth, I was very resentful of the whole thing and of her and the two children that they got. I did not bond with these children. I did not. I pulled away. And it is really subsequent to the passing away of my father that I'm there for them and I've made it known to them that I regret the fact that there was a chasm between us. I'm there for them. So now, of course, there's been hurt on their side. But yeah, that is not because there was anything that I sought to do that has aimed at them. It was because of the anger and the fact that my father had moved on, in my view, early for And I

SPEAKER_02: 29:22

suppose that from your perspective also, you were a young man at that time. As you say, the concept of separation in any form was foreign to you. Your grandparents were together for a long time. Your mother and father, you'd only ever known them being together. So it's sort of... would have appeared to you, I would imagine, as sort of a deletion of your mother. And there you are, you are grieving. She will forever, eternally live in your heart. And you then see her physical space being consumed by somebody else. And it makes you question, is she still in that heart space like that? I'm still... in my heart you know I'm still missing my mother where is she in your heart space but you know people of those times and most certainly our parents will hardly ever share what is in their heart space they will focus on what's functional as you're saying He needs to wake up early, go to work. He needs to have a meal when he comes back. I'm not saying that he didn't love his second wife. I'm saying that the drivers might have been different and the motivations might have been different compared to your first sweetheart at high school or primary school. And it can be, I would imagine it would have been very hurtful. You know, somebody once explained, you see when people are at a tavern, and a person gets very very very very drunk or they're at a family function and they get very drunk and they'll say and this is a person who's in their 40s in their 50s because it's a hole that doesn't

SPEAKER_00: 31:17

close You're absolutely right. It never dies close. It never dies close. To this day, there's a gaping hole in my heart. I've missed her so much. And as I said, the biggest tragedy is that I had ideas. I had plans in my mind for them, things I was going to do for them, the life my father and my mother were going to live. And she did not enjoy any of that. So she had this difficult life as a child, as a young bride, as a wife, and never got to have, my father enjoyed a better life. I did things for him. including, as you see, he's on that car with a sense of pride. He's been on every home that I owned in Johannesburg, my first home in Westville in Durban. And this property from which I'm talking to you now, my mother did not enjoy any of that. So that makes the pain that much deeper. And yeah, I have never accepted her absence in my life. You see, my father passed on at 73. He knows every one of my children. And so it was sad to lose him. But at the same time, I was grateful that he had the kind of life that he had had, that we were there for him, that he had enjoyed having a child who had succeeded in his life. My mother did not enjoy any of that. So that is the biggest sadness, the biggest source of sadness in my life.

SPEAKER_02: 32:56

How does one overcome that? Because again, you are so vulnerable with your experiences and your emotions and a lot of men don't talk about that. A lot of men won't talk about the pain that they feel and not recovering, legitimately so. I don't know how it is even possible conceivable that a person could recover from the pain of losing a parent. I fully, fully understand how extremely difficult it would be to recover from that. But a lot of men don't talk about that. A lot of people... Don't mention that. It's these things that are discussed at women's high teas and, you know, women's sessions and, you know, they talk about it and all of that. But men hardly ever talk about that. And that's why I ask, how do you overcome that? Because there are people who struggle with that till today. And maybe the mother passed on 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago when they were young. It's so hard. painful to hear a grown man talk about maybe their mother who passed on when they were 11 or maybe passed on when they were in high school and you can hear the longing and the pain in their voice how do you i don't want to say heal dr nyatumba how do you how do you overcome how do you how do you continue despite that

SPEAKER_00: 34:17

pain uh i don't uh heal i

SPEAKER_02: 34:22

i i

SPEAKER_00: 34:22

you acknowledge it, you accept it, you move on, and the person lives on in my life. Certainly in my case, with my mother, that's what happened. See, as I say again, it's difficult to lose a loved one. Very, very difficult. But my father was 73, so there is an element of acceptance and gratitude for the kind of life that the person had. It's very tough. when the person was as young as my mother was, and I was young. It's very tough when my brother was 45, when he got murdered in the way that it was. So it was not even a natural death. So those things are tough. The only time in my life I ever had a need to go for counseling was when I lost my brother Adonis, given the violent nature of the loss, everything that happened around that. I am certain that had I had the resources at the time, I would have sought counsel in putting the passing away of my mother. But no, I look at my children personally every day and they have no idea. They have not met my mother. None of them has met my mother. So they see her in pictures and I never stop talking about her. So I accept and because the beginning of any healing is with acceptance. I have accepted that she's not there and I talk about her often but it really never stops the sense of loss as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_02: 36:03

So looking at your professional career, I am amazed at how your life was intertwined with such critical moments in our history. And I can not even begin to fathom being a journalist at that time. not just because of the extent of civil unrest, not just because of the change of times. When you became a political reporter at the Star, the first black political reporter, when you were an editor at the time of our second general election, you became the political editor of the Star in 1995. The political unrest, when you look at our stance on HIV AIDS, when you look at our re-entry into the global arena, those are critical times in our history, in the developing of the South Africa that we know now. But what struck me is you were still then at the time of the first black this, the first black that. And to be part of the narrative of South Africa and part of shaping the narrative of South Africa politically, wasn't that extremely difficult?

SPEAKER_00: 37:35

I happen to have been very fortunate in my life to have been at the right time at the right moment to have had opportunities granted to me to do things and I acknowledge I excelled. I've always given my all to whatever it is that I do and I've excelled. I've also been fortunate. to have bosses who recognized the hard work in me, the sense of excellence and rewarded it handsomely. So it became possible for one to make the strides professionally that one made and to achieve all these things. Because one, I worked very hard and there were people who did not deny me opportunities. They recognized that and they rewarded that hard work and that sense of excellence. But at the time when we leave during historic moments. I don't recognize you living through an historic moment. I was, I wish now, that I had made notes as I went along and had written a book about this. Because I said to Pax Mankatana in 1994, Paka Mili Mankatana was a spokesperson of the Youth League, was very close to Peter Mukaba, and he went on to work with two other titans in the presidency. I said, Pax, it's an historic moment. I recognized the sense of importance of the occasional the time I said if I were you I would write down everything that happens and write a book at the end of it sadly of course we know parks do not live long but Even I ought to have done that. The books about the era that have been written, have been written by foreign white journalists. John Carlin, on whose book, A Movement About Mandela As We Made, and others. And Patty Wildmeyer, I think, from the US. No black South African, no South African journalist I was right in the middle of it all. I had access to everybody. It was respected across the board. I ought to have sat down to have written a book in 1999 or when I left journalism about that period. I regret that I did not do so. But yes, it was an historic moment and I consider myself to have been extremely lucky to have been part of the documentation of our historical transition

SPEAKER_02: 40:08

and looking at it now I can't imagine I was a child when Chris Haney was killed and I remember the tension in the air and I was a primary school child and I remember the tension in the air I remember us being glued to our TVs on the day of his funeral I remember the marching in the streets and I remember the fear. And we were just observers. You were in the thick of it. I mean, this is somebody that you'd met. When we talk about our first statesman, our first black statesman, this is somebody that you received personal calls from.

SPEAKER_01: 41:05

This

SPEAKER_02: 41:06

is somebody that you met, took pictures with. This is somebody who, without naming you, gave you professional criticism. Yes. And these are very real, tangible people that you've sat across the table from. And when you look at it now, as you say, you regret not writing a book about it, but when you look at it now, does it not leave you in awe of yourself? Because you didn't get there by fluke. You didn't sit across from these people by accident.

SPEAKER_00: 41:42

Well, what a question that is. Am I ever in awe of myself? Look back with a sense of awe? I choose to look back with gratitude. With a... a great sense of gratitude to those who offered me the opportunity and to consider myself to have been fortunate. Others may look back and say what awful they were. For me, it happened. to have been at the right place at the right moment, to have excelled in the tasks given to me, and then to have been given additional responsibilities. So I lived during this historical moment. I documented this historical moment as a journalist. And in a subsequent book called Ruminations, I go more into these things that I should have done. So in a book, just documenting this period. So I look at it as a sense, as having been to be in the right place at the right time. I look at it as somebody having had an opportunity to make the best possible use of the technology The chance is given to one and then to have been rewarded by those who have the power so to do. So that's how I choose to look at it. But yes, even now I look back and I see in the media today some reports about that era. They are wrong. in terms of context, in terms of some things attributed to some people. And at moments, I feel tempted to set the record straight, but I refrain from so doing. Because there are young people now who are reporting who don't have the benefit of having been physically there, the sense of sequence that that thing happened. So I understand, but... One is still around. The likes of Cyril Matalas that I work with is still around. He writes from time to time for Daily Maverick. So people like those have a responsibility to help set the record straight because there are certain things that are being falsified about the transition. And they will become the truth for those who read them in years to come.

SPEAKER_02: 44:09

You know, that's what troubles me at times. that there's always a call for fresh eyes. There's always a call for new blood. There's always a call for, you know, young people coming into various spaces. And that's very important. However, on the other side is what within an organizational setting would be called institutional memory.

SPEAKER_01: 44:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 44:39

That I wouldn't say gets lost. But it's no longer tactile because the depth of research might not be there. The access to the likes of yourself might not be there. The documentation of certain perspectives might not be there. The reporting might be there, yes. But it's different to read a news report about Chris Haney's death. and his funeral versus sitting with Dr. Kaizanya Tsumba and having that conversation because the perspective and the depth that you get there is completely different. And I wonder why it is that sort of, you know how oral history gets passed along? It's passed along by people sitting at a fireplace or sitting wherever they sit in communities. And we see this often. in rural areas where, you know, you will bump into somebody and they are doing a certain line of work or performing a certain function within the community. And when you say, Oh, This is not accidental. This is not also just about relationships. It's about if you grew up and your father was Indoon or rather your grandfather was Indoon, you've heard the stories. You know essentially everything. So by the time you are then a clerk at the traditional council, you have in that 30-year-old brain, 60 years worth of history.

SPEAKER_00: 46:26

True. You've had the benefit of the institutional memory because it's been passed down to you, it's been shared with you. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02: 46:35

And when you look at it now and you listen to the news with confidence technology, with AI, with all these kinds of things. And you look at it and you think about how you used to gather news and how you used to package news and how you used to file your reports and all of that. And you look at with all the access to that, but without the institutional memory. Do you feel we are on a good trajectory in terms of how we represent stories, in terms of the stories that actually are made to matter, the narratives that are out there?

SPEAKER_00: 47:08

There's a tendency on the part of people of a certain age to be critical of those who come behind them. And so people tend to say, you know, in our days, as though everything was hunky-dory during the days that lived, I tend to refrain from so doing. In 2014, I was asked to do exactly that in an article for The Journalist. If you Google it, you'll find it. I was asked to critique journalism in 2014 by colleagues who were established the publication and were very critical about what was happening. And I referred there to Teddy Penegrast's song, In My Time. There's a tendency for people to say their time was the best there was. No, I don't take that view. I am a fan of journalists, young journalists, on radio and television and print who do a great job. But first, let me put it on the record. I'm very disappointed in the group that I used to work for. It is a pale shadow of what it used to be, independent newspaper. That stable is not what it used to be. It was the best newspaper group in the country. As editor, I was never told by anybody what to publish and how to publish it. I had full authority as an editor of a title, even as a political editor on the side. I wrote the political editorials in the paper. So I'm very deeply disappointed by what that stable has turned out to be. But there are still courageous journalists in other newspaper groups, in other media in the country. They're doing very well. My only criticism would be the absence. And it's not a fault. It's not their own fault. They are the ages that they are. They're living in a different era. So they don't have the kind of background that we would have as a consequence of having been there. And so certain things get falsified along the way. But the journalists today are much more better educated than the journalists that I worked with. And they're doing very well. So I'm not critical at all of them, but I just wish that they had the benefit of certain context, background, even if it's by way of reading, if they didn't have access to people who were there around that period.

SPEAKER_02: 49:47

So one of the prevailing themes of these times that we are in is what we see happening at our state-owned enterprises. Yes. And when you did your PhD, and congratulations on your PhD. Thank you very much. And having it conferred at the height of the COVID pandemic. You turned your research into a book, Successfully Implementing Turnaround Strategies at State-Owned Companies, SAA, Kenya Airways, and Ethiopian Airlines as Case Studies. So you looked at the African context for state-owned enterprises. Just as an overall picture, Obviously, it's a much bigger conversation and it's a much broader conversation and it's a much more detailed conversation. What do you think is needed? Is it leadership? Is it accountability? Is it strategy? Is it political will? What's needed to make SOE?

SPEAKER_00: 50:59

It's all of those, but far more important is the adoption by the South African government of the Organization for Economic Development and Cooperation, OEDC, guidelines on how state-owned companies are to be guided. What we have in South Africa is sadly, the biggest challenge we have is political governance. The biggest challenge we have is the rotten state of leadership in the country. We have no leadership in South Africa today. It is very, very sad. We have had a culture that has been inculcated that an opportunity to serve is an opportunity to advance your own interests. And so this terrible CADA deployment thing promoted by the ANC when it came in, one could understand why in 1994 when they came into office they wanted to place strategically in key positions people that they trusted. One can understand that because those they inherited were people who were of a particular political bent and so they wanted to know that they would have people that they could trust who would buy into their vision. But the continuation of that and the getting to a stage where people were placed in strategic positions who did not have the intellectual wherewithal or the capability to do the jobs That led to where we are at the moment. And it got worse when we had the political leadership using these entities as vehicles for enrichment. They placed people in positions because they were considered pliable. They would be able to carry out instructions as given to them. So in this country, regrettably, we don't value independence. And I'm a very, very independent person now. I have always been a person who, speaks his or her own mind, who does not seek to carry favor with anybody. That's the kind of person you want in leadership. People who are not going to do things because somebody says this or that, but who are going to do things because they are the right things to do. People who are men and women of integrity. That's what we lack. And so that whole rotten culture permeates state-owned enterprises. It starts at the political leadership. And so you are not going to have the kind of leadership the kind of strategic approach, the kind of ethical approach to things that is required to run state-owned enterprises appropriately because the political leadership is rotten. That is at the heart of what is happening. So being a state-owned entity is not something wrong. There are state-owned companies in China that are very, very profitable, some of which are listed on the New York Stock Exchange that are doing very well. It's just your approach as a government to those state-owned enterprises. Do you consider them as entities to be milked for your own benefit or are they there to serve a strategic purpose in the best interest of the country? That is fundamentally the challenge.

SPEAKER_02: 54:32

You did say that you are a writer at heart. So I will read one of your pieces that are included in the appendix. We, in our quest for freedom, have produced more than our share of martyrs. We have written their names on placards, composed poetry and music in their honor, worn t-shirts with their pictures and their names, and regarded them highly as our fallen heroes. We need no more martyrs now. We need heroes who will live. and challenge the enemy, yet give them no chance to destroy them. We need heroes who will prepare our people for the ineluctable repossession of our land and the responsibility that goes with it. For if we all become martyrs, who will lead the people when that inevitable time comes? The piece is No More Martyrs. In the book, Corporate Newsman, A Life of Integrity by Kaiser Nyatsumba. That's a powerful piece.

SPEAKER_00: 55:54

You know, the interesting thing, yeah, thank you, I agree. I consider it as such even now, so I acknowledge the compliment and I take it on board. The interesting thing was that I wrote that poem as a 21 or 22-year-old. No. Absolutely. I wrote that poem in Georgetown. No. I was convinced that it's a recent piece. No, no. I wrote that poem in 1985 or 86 at Georgetown University. And this is what happened. A fellow student at the Congress who was in the South African Students Organization was among those who were murdered in in in in guatemala and i would sit at georgetown and look and read the washington post and watch television and see terrible things happening here young people dying and being celebrated and people having their names written on placards and they'll be celebrated as as brave young young brave lions and and and as as martyrs and that essentially was intended to encourage more young people to join so that they too would die. It was as if we were celebrating the death of young people. You struggle, you die, and as if the death was an end in and of itself. And I was worried about this. I felt it was very important to take a stand against the struggle. But can we do so in a manner that does not encourage the birth of more martyrs? Can we be more smart about it and ensure that we look at, we get young people to survive those times so that they would offer leadership that is ethical, that is transparent, that is what is needed in this country. So yes, I do agree that that for me is a powerful poem to this day, but it was written in 1922 in Washington, D.C.

SPEAKER_02: 58:01

Goodness me. Sort of foretelling, I would say.

SPEAKER_00: 58:06

Indeed.

SPEAKER_02: 58:07

Very foretelling. As we end our discussion, Dr. Nyatsumba, I will read just a little portion of another piece that you wrote. Yesterday, I had a mother. Today, I am orphaned. Yesterday, a toddling boy with a rod to lean on. Now, a man. forcibly thrown into this hazardous wilderness called life, where death lurks in daylight to sweat, to toil, and to wail.

SPEAKER_01: 58:43

Thank you very

SPEAKER_00: 58:46

much. That poem, I can't read it and be unemotional or listen to you reading it and be unemotional. It was written on the plane in 1986. as I flew back from New York to South Africa to bury my mother. So it was really a day after I'd learned of her passing. And yeah, it's a very, very touching poem to me. Thank you very much for this opportunity. Thank you for reading this poem. And I'm glad to have had the opportunity to chat with you. I appreciate it very much.

SPEAKER_02: 59:21

Thank you, Dr. Njitsumba, for your time. And thank you for listening to this episode of the podcast. Remember you can like, rate and share this podcast on the channel you're listening on.